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[0:00] Well, it's great to be here. Yeah, it's cold, isn't it? I've got this problem where with my coat on, I'm too warm, and with my coat off, I'm too cold.

[0:14] So it's that sort of dilemma going on. I'm no expert, okay? So I'm not a medic or a psychiatrist or anything like that. I'm not a counsellor. I'm just a pastor, and I'm only speaking from my own experience.

[0:28] I wrote a little book, and you can take one on your way out. I get a cross price at $5.50, so you can give Johnny the money sometime or if you want to take one. But I wrote that.

[0:39] But let me start by telling you my own story. So when I was about 13 years old, we were on holidays in France, and I read this little book called From Witchcraft to Christ.

[0:50] I was really curious. I couldn't get this out of my head. And the woman, she'd been sort of like a Satanist and stuff, and I wondered what would happen if I sort of gave in and said something, you know, in that line.

[1:03] And that night there was a storm, and I gave in, and that night there was a storm, and I was really worried. Well, maybe God wouldn't forgive me for that. And I remember talking to my mum the next morning, and she's a Christian, and I said, you know, does God forgive us everything?

[1:18] And she said, he does. But when I was about 19, I read something in the Bible about a sin that was unforgivable. Now, if you're worried that you're committed an unforgivable sin, you don't need to worry.

[1:31] Because it's about a hardness of heart that would make God completely irrelevant to you. You would have no interest. But I remembered what I had done as a 13-year-old, and I started to obsess over this.

[1:43] I began to become very anxious all the time. What I didn't realise was that actually I was struggling just with pure anxiety, but it had latched onto this.

[1:55] And I was anxious about this all the time. When I was about 21, I remember one summer, and I was so anxious. I would lie in bed at night just shivering with nerves and anxiety, and thinking there was no hope for me.

[2:12] And I obsessed over this for about 12 years until I was about 30. And then when I was 30, something different happened. When I was 30, I started to get intrusive thoughts.

[2:25] So instead of obsessing over something I had done in the past and wondering whether I could be forgiven and all that, I started to get these thoughts I didn't like that I couldn't get out of my mind.

[2:38] And all the time, these thoughts would come into my mind, and I became very anxious about it. I developed all these little sticks, it was what I'd call them. You know, I'd hold my ring as a way of saying, you know, I don't like this thought.

[2:51] I can't control my thoughts, but I can control my body. I know it's quite humiliating, actually, when you talk about these things, because it felt very silly. And I just thought I was a bit weird.

[3:04] You know, I just thought, this is who I am, and I worry about things. And I would talk to my wife, and she was very patient with me. But it felt like it was getting worse and worse.

[3:15] And I would do things like we would be having a meal, and I would find that I would run off to the bathroom just to breathe and go, I don't like these thoughts that are coming into my head.

[3:26] I don't like them. And eventually it got to the stage. My wife remembers this slightly different than I do. And I always thought that I was looking for her permission to go to the doctor, whereas she says that she was always telling me to go to the doctor.

[3:44] So I, in a way, was wanting her to push me to go to the doctor. And by the kindness of God, in the church that we were working in at the time, there were two GPs, and there was a psychiatrist.

[3:58] So I went to Rosie, my friend, and I explained that I was struggling with these thoughts coming into my head all the time that were causing me great anxiety. And she could see that I just couldn't function.

[4:10] And that night, Stephen, the psychiatrist, came over to our house. And he said to me, your thoughts are ridiculous, repulsive, repetitive, and resistant.

[4:24] I said, that's exactly what they are. And he explained the concept of an anti-thought. Now, I found this thought of an anti-thought, this concept of an anti-thought, very helpful.

[4:37] Explained that these things that were coming into my mind that I was obsessing over, they weren't what I loved or anything like that. They were things that I feared.

[4:48] And so I was obsessing over things that I feared, whether blasphemous thoughts or about God or something else. And he explained that they're an anti-thought.

[5:00] So they're the things I don't like rather than the things I do like. And I found that quite liberating. And then he said to me that you have OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder.

[5:10] Now, if you go to my car, like Trish, you said about putting the shoes on my car, you would see that my car is very untidy. I don't fit the stereotype of OCD. It would never have occurred to me that I'm obsessive compulsive disorder because I'm not, you know, that tidy sort of person that the stereotype is.

[5:30] But I was struggling with obsessions, obsessive thinking, and little ticks that were to help me, little compulsions to take away the fear.

[5:44] So I took a couple of months off. I continued to preach at church. The church was very supportive. And then I started to take tablets. I take SSRIs.

[5:55] You know, the psychiatrist explained to me that they help your thoughts be less sticky. And that was quite good for a period of time. And then about five years ago, myself and my family, we were watching the news, or no, we were having a video night and a Friday night.

[6:15] And all the old fears started to come back. And I was under a lot of pressure at the time. And I went upstairs and I started just to shake in bed. And for about a week, I had, I think, what was a small little nervous breakdown.

[6:30] I was shaking all the time. I was, I didn't want to live. I, so on. And then that sort of recovered. But a few weeks later, a darkness came over me.

[6:42] And for a couple of months, I was very, very low at that time. I lost my appetite. I couldn't sleep. I would actually, I could sleep.

[6:54] I could get to sleep at night. But the problem was, I would wake up about three or four in the morning. And I felt unbelievably awful. And I remember I got to a stage where I didn't want to fall asleep, even though I was tired, because I was scared of how I would feel when I woke up.

[7:12] The day would get slightly better. And I went to a few psychiatrists and they explained that this would be the rhythm of the body. And by the time I was going to bed, you know, I was just about worth living.

[7:23] But I was scared of what would happen when I woke up early the next morning. It eventually lifted. Well, I say eventually.

[7:34] It wasn't. It was just a few months of that. I have to say too, as someone who has OCD, as someone who still gets intrusive thoughts, as someone who's not cured of this, I do have a good life.

[7:47] You know, I enjoy my job. I enjoy the church I work in. I have a family that I enjoy. And I would always say to you, you know, it may be that depression or anxiety will be something that you struggle with.

[8:01] And it may be something that you will... But that does not mean your life has to be entirely defined by that. And I do have many things in my life that I'm very grateful for.

[8:12] And I'm also even grateful in some ways, looking back on the experiences I've had. I want to say a few things about depression.

[8:25] As I say, I'm not a medic. I'm not even a counselor. I'm not coming as any professional other than someone who is a pastor. So I've thought a bit about the Bible and as someone who suffered myself.

[8:38] So I have some personal experience. But in reading up about these things, my understanding about mental health issues is that they're multifaceted. And what I mean by multifaceted is there's a number of reasons why I struggle with my mental health.

[8:53] There could be personal insecurities. You know, just could be to do with growing up. But there's also, I would think, for my own mental health, there's, you know, chemical imbalances in the brain.

[9:06] And I know people in our church who have gone through very horrific things in their past, who have left them with trauma. I think of another friend who, you know, stress was just something he was overworked and his mental health affected by that.

[9:23] And because mental health has a number of factors dealing with it, that means that there'll be a number of ways that you try to fix it or cope with it.

[9:37] So if there's a number of causes, there should be a number of solutions. So, for example, I unapologetically take tablets every day. I'm glad for those tablets. I don't feel in any sense any shame in taking those tablets, and they help me.

[9:52] But I also know that I have to be careful not to overwork. I know that I have to be careful about cultivating in my own mind a healthy image of God and my position before Him and that to grow in my security and so on.

[10:06] And I did a course of cognitive behaviour therapy. That was very helpful. Where I was given coping mechanisms to help me with my anxieties.

[10:19] I would say, too, that as a Christian, I believe that understanding mental health goes back to Genesis, where we see initially a creation that is good and unspoiled, and then because of human sin and human rebellion, death becomes part of our existence.

[10:35] And as a result, every organ of the body is affected. So, for example, your brain, like any other organ of the body, can be affected by the fact that we live in a broken world.

[10:49] And one of the things that I said, and this is what I wrote my little book on, was that it's not unspiritual to struggle with your mental health, just like it wouldn't be unspiritual to struggle with diabetes or any other illness or arthritis.

[11:01] You know, your brain is an organ of your body, and in fallen, broken worlds, it won't work perfectly. And that might be that there's an imbalance in your brain that needs to be treated.

[11:14] One of the things, by the way, that opened me up to the idea of going to a doctor about my mental health was that I heard that my father's mother, and it hadn't been spoken of, it hadn't been a secret, it just never happened to mention it because I didn't know his mother.

[11:28] I'd spent quite a lot of time in an institution, which is how they would have dealt with mental health issues in the past, and it struck me, maybe there's something chemically wrong with my brain.

[11:40] Maybe I've inherited something. Maybe there's an explanation more than just that I'm being silly. I could also say, because of that, if you're worried about taking tablets, I think you shouldn't be, just like you shouldn't be worried about taking insulin for diabetes and so on.

[12:01] I would say, though, don't treat that as the only solution. I think that you want to holistically look, for example, I've gone through talking therapies and so on.

[12:12] I want to talk to you tonight, though, also about some of the... Oh, we never... Did this go dead? Aha! Does that go up?

[12:24] No. Don't worry. It doesn't matter. It's one slide. I'm not very technical. Aha! No, no, BenQ is not me, and this has not anything to do with where I've skied there.

[12:36] So, I want to go through... So, one of the things that frustrated me is when I wrote this little book that I wrote, I had to come up with a definition of depression or anxiety, which are often interrelated.

[12:50] And I found a definition that said something like, depression is a situation where you have a low mood that affects your daily functioning for a period of over two weeks.

[13:04] You know what? It doesn't really matter. All of us struggle with a low mood. All of us struggle with brokenness. Many of you might struggle with different levels of anxiety. And what I want to go through is through six things that the Bible speaks about that can help us no matter where we are.

[13:22] And I hope they'll be helpful. So, the first one is maturity. Now, I read this little book. I can't even remember the title of it.

[13:33] And the writer said something that's been really helpful to me. He said, and he struggled with his mental health. He said, realizing that life was about maturity rather than happiness enabled me to have joy.

[13:49] Let me unpack that. You know, our design for life is to mature as people. If you follow Jesus, it's to become more like Jesus.

[14:01] And sometimes that will involve going through periods of pain. The life that is just around happiness, well, happiness comes from the idea of what happens to you.

[14:13] Now, I've got to be very careful because I say that, but then I think of a friend of mine who lost a son. You know, I don't want to go and make this easy and go, well, God's causing you to grow.

[14:26] You know, you've got to be very careful what you say to people and how you view things. Well, I've come to realize that the value of my life isn't just about how happy I feel every day.

[14:38] It's about growing. Hands up, those of you who have heard of Michael Bublé. Okay, almost every... Michael Bublé, like, is he just, like, for older people or is he, like, do younger people know anything about Michael Bublé?

[14:52] Michael Bublé? Oh, so he's cool, is he? Well... He's Christmas. He's Christmas, exactly. So he can get through Christmas. Well, anyway, he was on the Late Late Show. It was the last show that Ryan Tuberty ever did.

[15:04] And Michael Bublé, who I do not know what he thinks about God, but this is what he said. He talked about how he had gone along in his life and everything had been rosy and he was quite superficial until his son got ill.

[15:19] And then he said that he grew as a person through that illness. And he said this, he said, that every time you come across something that stretches you or causes you to suffer in life as like a fork in the road, you can either become more bitter or you can mature as a person.

[15:38] And I think we all would experience a little bit of this. Like, when you're going through a difficult time, who do you go to? Do you go to the person who's never had a difficult time? Or do you go to those people who know something of brokenness?

[15:50] We all have something of brokenness, whether it's grief or depression or anxiety. All of us have things in our life that are broken. The Bible speaks about this, actually.

[16:03] So Paul writes to the Romans in chapter 5 and to the Roman church. He talked about how he rejoices in his suffering because suffering produces character and character hope. James says the same thing.

[16:15] Again, you've got to be very careful how you apply these truths. I remember preaching in James chapter 1 where he says, Consider it pure joy whenever you have trials of any kind. And I'm looking down at my friend Joy who just buried her father.

[16:29] It felt insensitive. It wasn't a text I would have chosen for that Sunday. But it brings you a hope, James says. One of the things I would say to you is if you're going through difficulties, don't give up hope.

[16:43] Don't give up hope. I've talked to a lot of people in psychiatric nursing and psychiatrists about this where that lowest point, for me the fear was that I'd never get better.

[16:58] I'm not fully better, but I'm not where I was at the lowest point. And I was scared that at that lowest point this would be the rest of my life. And inevitably that lowest point does lift.

[17:10] It might lift perfectly, but you don't stay at that lowest point and you must not give up hope. And anyway, it says character, hope, and James talks about 1 Corinthians, the 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, has this wonderful verse.

[17:27] It says this. Praise be to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all comfort and the God of compassion, who comforts us in our struggles so that we can help others with the comfort we ourselves have received.

[17:42] I remember when I was 19, the first time I really struggled with anxiety. Until then, I was really quite a happy-go-lucky sort of person. I remember walking, I was studying in Dublin and I remember walking into O'Connell Street and going down Abbey Street and seeing a guy who was homeless.

[17:59] And I'm not saying I know how he felt, but it mattered to me more than it ever had before because I was feeling pain too. And one of the biblical principles is that God will use the pain that you experience if you're willing to make you more compassionate towards other people.

[18:20] This is why often when we go through difficult times, we're drawn towards other people who have gone through difficult times as well. One of the amazing things is in the book of Hebrews chapter 5, verse 7, it talks about Jesus Christ learning obedience from what he suffered.

[18:36] I don't know how Jesus, the perfect son of God, learns anything, but he matured in what he went through. Again, you want to say that carefully to someone because when you're right down, one of the things that I remember is when I was studying in Belfast, I went to Belfast to study theology and a friend of mine, Elaine, had a nervous breakdown.

[18:58] And she came to me and she said, I'm so tired of these Christians who always say things to you like God works everything for the good of those who love him. She says, it doesn't feel very true to me. And when I had my time of deep depression, I thought that that truth wouldn't comfort me because it hadn't comforted Elaine.

[19:15] And then I realized the problem was different. I was helped by that truth. I was helped by the idea that God must have a plan in this. I remember there was a quote from a guy called John Newton where he said, everything that God allows must be needful and anything that he holds can't be needful.

[19:37] And I remember finding help in that even though at the time of my depression I felt nothing for God. And there were times even I didn't want it to be true anymore.

[19:48] But there was something. And then I realized that Elaine's problem was not the truth of Romans chapter 8 that God works all things together for the good of those who love him. Her problem was Christians.

[20:01] Her problem was having Bible verses thrown at her. Because if you throw a Bible verse at someone you're not taking the time to listen to them. You're not taking the time to understand them.

[20:13] You're not giving them the opportunity to talk. And they know this is true if they're a Christian as well. But you're not taking it. It's another thing too is I went to the pastoral care team of our last church.

[20:26] And I said this. I said I want you all you don't have to do this. I said I want you all to say after me. I know how you feel. And they all went I know how you feel. And I said don't ever say that in this church again.

[20:39] Because you know when we had and it had come because of a problem we had had in the church where one woman who was suffering from postnatal depression and was struggling and someone else came to her and said oh I know how you feel I went through it as well.

[20:54] And the problem was she doesn't know how she feels. Because the same thing can affect different people in different ways. But primarily the problem was when you say to someone I know how you feel or fire a Bible verse at them you're not taking the time to listen to them.

[21:11] And what they need is to be heard and understood. That's maturity. Then purpose. My friend Brenda works in the University of Maynooth.

[21:22] She's a psychologist. And Brenda was an RTE talking to teenagers. And she talked about the difference between hedonistic happiness and eudaimonic happiness.

[21:33] Hedonistic happiness is to live for the weekend. To live for the now. Eat, drink and be merry. By the way these are principles that I hope will help you wherever you are on the spectrum of depression or anxiety or just for life.

[21:47] Hedonistic happiness is to eat, drink and be merry. Eudaimonic happiness means you're living for a big picture. And as Brenda said that her eyes flicked up to the top of her head.

[21:58] And I said to Brenda the next time I met her I said I saw that little bit of faith sharing you had. Because you were clearly wanting to talk about God. Brenda actually said well I did talk about God being my big picture to live for but the guys on RT cut it out.

[22:15] But it's true. You need to live for a sense of purpose. Sometimes we make very foolish decisions. I have a problem with overeating.

[22:25] I'm a binge eater. It's a real struggle for me. Sometimes I get people I find it hard to get people to take it seriously when I tell them that I'm struggling with this. But it's a real problem for me.

[22:37] But that's a real example of hedonistic happiness that actually makes you sad. You know living just for the moment rather than thinking and making decisions with regards to the big picture.

[22:47] And Johnny will tell you that living or Sam or anyone else in the church will tell you that the big picture that Christians live for is to know God and to make him known to other people and to enjoy that love.

[23:06] Then the next one is grace. So a friend of mine I was having coffee with a friend and he doesn't go to church and we were chatting and I said I mentioned you in a sermon.

[23:19] And he goes oh okay. He said you didn't mention me by name did you? Oh might have. But I'm going to change his name for tonight. And his name is Jack which it isn't.

[23:30] But Jack comes to me and he goes to me he says I'm really struggling he says and I'm going to a counsellor. He says but the problem is that the counsellor keeps trying to tell me I'm brilliant.

[23:45] Because the counsellor is trying to build my self esteem. He says it's not working for me. And I said you know I'm actually a crappier person than you realize. You know I am worse than you ever imagined.

[23:56] But my self esteem my value is not built on how good I am. Because that's never going to make me happy. Because if I do what happens when I see things within myself that I don't like?

[24:11] then I'm going to my mood is going to be dictated by how I feel about myself. I said my position in life is built around the Christian concept of grace.

[24:26] Grace is the fact that according to the Bible God does not treat us as our sins deserve but according to his loving kindness. And I said I think that's better news than self esteem.

[24:40] I'd be agreed. I would say too with regards counselling we have quite a lot of 20 somethings in our church and sometimes they'll say well what about counselling and you know should I go to the university counsellor I say yeah go to the university counsellor but you know we can take a debriefing time.

[25:00] So some of them will go to the counsellor they'll get some very good help but they'll debrief about what they heard and what they're being taught about as well just so that we can think about it through in terms of the gospel because certainly self esteem is not where you're going to find your happiness.

[25:16] Grace is where you're going to find your security. A guy called Tim Keller said this he said to be loved but not known is comforting but superficial.

[25:28] Did you ever have that? First church I worked in they all liked me but I was a complete mess and every sermon I used to have was I don't know if you do this Johnny but I used to have read your bible and pray that was every sermon.

[25:45] I wasn't either reading the bible or pray I just felt such a hypocrite and I used to have this dream that I would go down to the town and I'd be in the shops and I'd meet someone from church and I would find that I'm standing in my underpants and it was because I was scared what if they knew what I was really like you know what if they saw beyond the exterior it's not a nice place to be but grace enables community where we can accept each other as broken people because we're being accepted by a loving and gracious God and so grace is God treating us not as oh yes so he said to be loved and not known is comforting but superficial then he said to be known and then not loved is our worst nightmare it's not what we fear above anything else what if they knew what I was really like what if they knew what a mess I was maybe they would reject me that's our greatest fear and then he said but to be totally known and truly loved that's the gospel of Jesus Christ but that love or that grace is based on the

[26:54] Christian concept of love now there's been lots of research done that show that religion is good for you and I would argue that Christianity is more than religion it's based on a person and work of Jesus Christ and I would say that while religion may be good for you because it brings you into community it gives you that sense of purpose the Christian concept of grace that God accepts you despite everything you've done that he loves you despite the fact that you let him down is a much better thing for our emotional well-being than anything else but it's built on love and if you want to know what that love looks like John who not only wrote a gospel but wrote three letters and his first letter said this this is how we know what love is Christ died for us if you want to know that you're loved look at Jesus dying for you look at him dying for your guilt and look at his promises because he says

[27:59] I will never turn away anyone who comes to me so you might go but God would never accept someone like me that's not true I'm not the religious sort that's not true just look at who he hung out with he will never turn away anyone who comes to me he wants you to live in the light of love so Ed Welch who writes a book in depression says this to know that you are loved by the God of this universe surely that's a game changer when it comes to our mental health it changes the parameters I'll get on because I am probably going on a little bit am I okay with time I've got about ten minutes left and then we can have questions then gratitude so what we've got we've got maturity purpose grace love and gratitude so we were talking about Betsy O'Donoghue who's a biblical counsellor up in Donnerail and if you go to Betsy

[29:11] I can tell you and this is not to give any secrets away about Betsy's technique I can tell you what she's going to do and I love her and this is true what she does Betsy will identify with your brokenness so I called Betsy out in this I said Betsy I see what you're doing you're admitting a certain brokenness yourself so that you can make me feel okay about my brokenness and then she'll move you on to gratitude and Betsy does this thing where she goes what you need to do every day is start with A and work to Z on things to be thankful for now I've tried that the only problem is X like xylophones and x-rays are all I can come up with I can't play one I've never have I ever had one of the others I'm not sure but sometimes I do 1 to 25 but Brenda remember I mentioned that girl in Maynooth University who's she did her PhD by the way in the psychological health or health effects of gratitude so she wrote me this fantastic text when I asked her about this and she said you know that psychologists are being able to see that gratitude even changes the wiring of your brain you know part of your brain is malleable and that practicing gratitude will even affect she said it's a number of effects it even affects your physical health it affects the wiring of your brain it prevents or gives you strength for future shocks and so on and so one of the things to do is to think about things that you can be thankful for and to allow that to become a daily practice now I've got to be very careful

[31:01] I'm very very conscious in anything I say that we're all very different here and that is not to undermine severe mental health issues a friend of mine Sharon Hastings who lives in County Down wrote two books and one of her books was about the fact that she has schizoaffective disorder now she has lots of psychotic episodes she's a brilliant person I'm not going to go to her and say by the way just go A to Z on Thanksgiving and everything will be okay you know these are deep deep issues and I'm only speaking as someone who's struggled maybe less than you've struggled on this issue the last thing that I want to talk about is rest this is something that all of you need to think about I grew up in a home where if you were working I wasn't much of a studier in school my brother was and because of that he never had to do the dishes you know if you were studying you never had to do anything so I was always doing the dishes my brother was that sort of guy who'd go have you thought about spending fifth year doing all your work for sixth year

[32:10] I was thinking no I thought about kicking a ball up and down the garden for the whole summer and that's what I'd like to do so we were wired very differently but because David was a big studier he never my apologies if David ever hears this by the way and there's a recorder he never had to do the dishes because our family ethic was work our family ethic my father sometimes I think worked too hard and my mum would go not he should work less hard but isn't he great for the amount of work he does and I incorporated that idea when I started working in churches but actually the bible has a lot to say about rest in fact rest is a theme that runs right throughout the bible one of the things I did which I'm glad I did was when I went back to college and started studying theology as I used to take a day off every week and I used to keep that legalistically I was probably too strict in it but even if it was a day before an exam I'd take that day off and it gave me a sense of perspective in the world

[33:12] I actually think it did three things first of all it was a declaration of the good news about Jesus Jesus says come unto me all you who are weary and I will give you rest you know becoming a Christian is not about working it's about resting it's about accepting that Jesus did everything that is needed to put you right with God on the cross and you do nothing you just rest in that it's a declaration of your identity so when I met Ethan the first thing I said to him is what that's your son I said what do you do but you are not what you do you are much more than what you are doing and resting is a statement of I am not just what I do and then if you are a Christian rest is also a statement of trust because you go I want to solve every solution I have in my life or every problem but by resting

[34:12] I am saying I can't and I depend on somebody else a couple of thoughts to finish I don't know if I have gone too long or too short I am kind of hoping about average I have already told you these are just a couple of random thoughts do not say to someone I know how you feel ok don't say to someone I know how you feel in fact say I know how you feel say I know how you feel I just told you not to say that let that be the last time let that be the last time you say that because we don't take the time to listen to someone one of the things that really encouraged me when I was doing this little book is I talked to Brenda my psychologist friend and she talked to me about a therapeutic alliance Ralph what do you think therapeutic alliance is thinking kind of yeah alliance very good idea that actually makes perfect sense do you know what an occupational therapy therapist is right you know when I was filling in

[35:19] I did my leaving cert twice because I wasn't a very good studier I thought an occupational therapist is what you studied to become a career guidance counsellor you see because occupations and therapy but you know it made sense but if I had managed to get the points I would have been quite shocked when I was in college and it would have been quite difficult to explain to people what I was doing in that class but but therapeutic alliance is how comfortable you feel with your counsellor or your doctor or your psychiatrist so I went for cognitive behaviour therapy and in walks this woman and I go this is not what I would have chosen as a man I would have much preferred to have another man to talk to rather than a woman but actually we got on really well I felt really safe with her and I just felt at ease and Brenda says and what I should say is if you go for counselling or therapy and you find that you're not connecting with the person you don't feel listened to or you don't feel comfortable don't give up that doesn't necessarily mean that counselling is not for you it could be that the therapeutic alliance isn't right that you just don't feel comfortable with this person and Brenda said this to me she said if the therapeutic alliance is right most situations just by virtue of the therapeutic alliance being right most of the healing is done there and the exciting thing for that is for us as parents or us as people who are friends of people is that it reminds us that I can do the most important thing that any counsellor can do which is simply be there and be a good friend and then if you're someone who believes the good news about

[37:18] Jesus you can also bring in concepts like grace and stuff but careful not preaching to people but you know what I mean and it excites me as a pastor that this whole therapeutic alliance is the most important thing that happens for someone who's depressed or anxious because we can all work on doing that well the second thing is I know how you feel the third thing and in fact my last thing and I know there's a slight mix of nationalities here one of the things that used to get said in our church which is very multicultural is people would say things like it's just a white man's illness or it's a western thing I remember a person read my book and then said oh but my so and so just needs to go back to our home country where they'll be told to toughen up that's not true if someone ever says in my country because I hope that in Ireland the stigma is becoming less but if someone ever says in my country or my culture we don't struggle with this it's not true you could ask things for example like do people die by suicide in your culture you know because those are other indicators is there a struggle with alcoholism and addiction those could be other indicators there isn't as far as I can see from looking at this any particular genetic cultural thing although they do say that in cultures this is why one of the reasons why church can be so good for someone to be involved in is that when there's a strong community there's help and there's strength and they tend to have lower lates of anxiety and depression but we live in a very individualistic culture which is not helpful but don't listen to someone when they say it doesn't happen in my culture or it's because that's just not true right I'll finish there and I'll take whatever questions do you want to say anything first no just questions yeah sorry that was 39 minutes

[39:31]  I was paying for for to come to хорош tell you God can I tell you to invest in to to get out to their fight to make and make so have a match after