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[0:00] Well, let's just set ourselves up for thinking about Christian and creativity by just doing! a few reminders. I hope you don't mind going back over some of the things that I think are keys to understanding this.

[0:24] ! Next week, God willing, we'll look at Christian and science, and then the following we will look at Christian and science, Christian and work, and I think the keys that we started off with are really helpful for this.

[0:37] So you may or you may not remember I suggested a sort of theological toolkit to think about life in this time, this particular day and age that we live in.

[0:53] Psalm 24 verse 1 says, anybody get to it before I do?

[1:04] Psalm 24 verse 1. The earth is the Lord's and everything in it.

[1:14] Thank you. Thank you very much. So the starting point there, the earth is the Lord's and everything in it, and we said God is creator.

[1:25] creator. So he's creator of the world. He made it, and when he looked at it, he assessed it, and he said, it is good.

[1:38] Then the second thing that we said was this idea, this use of the word world. And if you can get to 1 John 2.15, and you can tell me what, what's the implication, or what does that sentence say, and what does it, where does it lead us to?

[2:16] Thank you very much. That says, do not love the world. So we've got the negative use of the word world, and we thought about this.

[2:26] So this is a negative thing. Do not love the world. So it's not good. And can you remember, perhaps in a nutshell, what this use of the word in the Bible is to do with?

[2:42] The flesh. Thank you very much. The flesh is the sort of powers and capacities of human nature without God.

[2:53] So that's the flesh, the things that we long for, can grasp, can do, can attain without God. It's very much linked to self.

[3:05] Flesh. Any other words that would link up with this? Sin. Sin, yeah. And how did we get from there to here?

[3:18] Theologically. By the fall. What we call the fall in English-speaking theology, in French-speaking theology, la rupture, the split. But we call it a fall.

[3:30] So sin has entered the world. So the things that were simply good, and that was all there was to it, it's much more complicated now. There are things that are, there's evil.

[3:42] And if you think of the world, you might think of a human system of thought and culture and action and motivation, which is actually against God.

[3:56] So when it says, love not the world, if you love the world, then the love of the Father isn't in you. And we also get that remarkable, and it is a remarkable verse, isn't it?

[4:09] It says, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[4:20] Which is a remarkable verse, isn't it? Because this rebellious, ugly mass, God had love towards that and wanted to save those people.

[4:35] And then the third one, this, here's the verse for this, Matthew 5.45. Somebody read it to us.

[5:00] I've got the right one. Yeah, Matthew 5.45. Okay, 44.45. Thank you very much.

[5:25] So can anybody remember this third sort of idea? Common grace is one way of putting it. Yeah, common grace. Common meaning it's all over the place, not meaning substandard.

[5:40] Common grace, and there was another word for it, providence. The way God runs the world, and you notice that it's he who runs the world.

[5:53] He sends the rain. He sends the sun. So it's God at work, and he sends these things on the good and the bad, on the just and the unjust.

[6:06] He's good and kind to all sorts of people, and he just is that way. And actually, Jesus says you should learn from that, and you should learn to be as generous and as kind as the Father is.

[6:22] So there's common grace and providence. God running the world to do good to all sorts of people. And it seems to me that under that general heading, as we said before, that's why we've got the NHS.

[6:39] That's why we've got police. That's why we've got summer holidays. That's why we've got electricity, running water, health system.

[6:52] All these things are good things that God gives indiscriminately, and we don't deserve it, but they're from his grace. His, as it were, common grace.

[7:04] So we had those three things which I think help us to just place our experience in the world. Now then, the other thing that we looked at was in Genesis chapter, pretty sure it's chapter one.

[7:24] Genesis 1, verse 26 and 27.

[7:40] Somebody please. Somebody please. Thank you very much.

[8:16] Yeah, there's a singular there. In the image of God, he created him. Male and female, he created them. So there's a singular and a plural there. Yeah, this idea of being in God's image, and that is the bit, that is the trail I'd like us to follow for the next few minutes.

[8:34] So God is a certain sort of person, which you find in Genesis chapter one, and human beings are made like him.

[8:45] There is some correspondence between the sort of person God is and the sort of creatures he has made humankind. So I would like you please to join with two or three people, and if you can produce a little list of things that you think are ways in which human beings are in the image of God.

[9:12] God is or does this, and human beings are or do something similar. Okay, three minutes. With the two or three people next to you, image of God means what?

[9:24] Thank you.

[9:54] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[10:04] Thank you. any any of Thank you.

[10:54] Thank you.

[11:24] Thank you. Okay, so call out some things. God is something and human beings are similar in that they something or are something.

[11:37] Anybody start us off? Okay, well that's the one I wanted to end up with. So, yeah, I think this is the one that is relevant for today.

[11:50] God created everything. He made stuff. And as we think about the way that he did that, but I think that that is the basis for saying that human beings are made to be creative.

[12:06] We make stuff. We make, by God's grace, remarkable stuff. And that idea of, let me just, creator.

[12:19] Creator. We are little creators. Let's follow it just for another couple of thoughts because that was one I wanted to end up with and I've got there straight away.

[12:33] Yeah, God speaks. And we speak also.

[12:43] And it strikes me that speaking is linked to creativity because every time you speak, you make a thought and you sort of push it out into the air on your breath.

[12:57] And it comes into somebody else's head and triggers up something in them. And that's a creative act because you're probably saying something that nobody else has ever said quite like it before.

[13:09] You know, even if you say, where's my breakfast? You know, that's putting something into reality that nobody has done exactly like that before.

[13:21] So, I think speech is a creative act. Anything else that you'd say about God? Provider. Provider? Yes.

[13:34] He is a provider. So, there's something in human beings about providing. That's an interesting thought, isn't it?

[13:47] Providing a home. Making a home. Making a home your home as distinct from whoever it was who lived there before you. So, there's something going on there.

[13:59] Yeah. Thank you very much. Any other thoughts? Yeah. Just. I suppose it doesn't come across in that first chapter.

[14:11] But it's certainly true. It's certainly true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we were to put judge. Yeah.

[14:24] And we are moral creatures. We understand the idea of right and wrong. And you don't have to be a Christian to understand the idea of right and wrong.

[14:40] We're moral creatures. If you just think of the reaction to this horrible incident of the bloke and the woman who ran away and abandoned the baby.

[14:55] You don't have to be a Christian to say that's awful, do you? Unless you're really hard-hearted. Really hard-hearted. Oh, well, it was just a little bit of, just a scrap of a few cells.

[15:08] They don't matter. Everybody surely says, that was awful. So, there's a moral sense built into us. Yep. Anything else? Work.

[15:20] Yep. That is on the text, isn't it? Because it's put to us as a seven-day week. God's seven-day week. I think it would be a bold person to say that God's days are the same as our days.

[15:34] But anyway, it's modeled on a seven-day week, six days working, seven and one day resting. And that is set out as a model for us.

[15:46] So, if we say God is a God of work and rest, and people are people of work and rest.

[15:57] And I remember Steve some years ago talking about the Sabbath and saying that he'd been to a glass factory where the machine making the glass churned out the glass 24-7.

[16:13] And because it was working with hot glass, you couldn't afford to let it stop. So, it just churns out glass 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But we're not like that. We're not made to be like that.

[16:25] We're made to work and rest. And that rest of God has got more than just a temporal content to it.

[16:39] There's an eternal rest, which is in Hebrews, that God has an eternal blessedness that the world is heading towards. Okay, one more.

[16:52] Love. Well, there's a thought, yes. Yeah, God is a God of love, and we are creatures who can love. That's an interesting one, isn't it?

[17:06] The Psalm 104 is the one that says he gives grass for the cows to eat.

[17:16] He makes places for the rabbits to live. Isn't that Psalm 104? And so, if you have that Psalm as spectacles and you look out into the world, you see it's full of God's care and generosity.

[17:32] And I think love would be the right word for that. He sort of pours his love into the world. Okay, let me just put one other here. He's a God of, now then, I don't know if I can spell this, aesthetics, meaning that he appreciates things that are beautiful.

[17:52] Because every day he says, that's good. That's good. That's good. So, is it A-E? A-E-S?

[18:08] And if you look at Genesis chapter 3, verse 6, look at what Eve says when she's shown the fruit, whatever it was.

[18:24] It doesn't say it was an apple, does it? But people think it would say it was an apple. Genesis 3, verse 6. Somebody read it out?

[18:40] Thank you.

[18:56] Interesting that what the woman thought, she's practical and she's got a sense of taste. A taste in the, you know, aesthetic sense, as in good taste.

[19:08] Because she says, it's good for food. So, nutritious, practical. And then she says, it was a delight to the eyes. So, that's a very beautiful fruit, that is.

[19:21] Lovely colour. Lovely texture. Very fine shading. Lovely pattern on the leaves or whatever it is. But whatever it was she saw, she saw it was a delight to the eyes.

[19:34] And then she also said it was desirable to make one wise, which I think she was, hmm. You know, it's getting into a dodgy area there. But it's noticeable that she had an aesthetic sense back in the garden.

[19:50] You know, decorating the house. I think that would be a nice fruit to have on the wallpaper because it's a very, it's pleasing to the eye, that sort of fruit. So, we've already, we've got aesthetics there.

[20:03] And I think that leads us on to the idea of creativity. So, let us, I'm going to skip a bit here. I think I'll, I think I will stop on this one.

[20:25] So, this is like one minute. What sort of human activities then do you think come under the idea of being creative?

[20:38] And perhaps having this aesthetic sense? What sort of human activities would you say are creative activities? So, I've told you I think speech is a creative activity.

[20:51] But have another think. So, you might look around and see what people do. So, this is going to be one minute. So, you have to be really quick. Creative activities. Creative activities. Thank you.

[21:38] 10 seconds. Okay, right.

[21:59] Creative activities. Corinne and Ruth, give us one. Okay.

[22:12] Teaching. I think so. Yeah. I mean, you can teach by just saying turn to page 304 and copy the diagram. But. Yeah.

[22:24] Yeah. And I think, I think, I, yeah, I think that's a creative act. Yes. Yeah.

[22:35] Okay, somebody else. Art. Art. Art. Okay, we'll come back to that. Did you say drawing? Yes. Thank you. Other creative things?

[22:48] Music. Music. Music. Singing. Singing. Writing. Writing.

[23:00] Thank you. Designing. Thank you. Drama.

[23:12] Architecture. Literature. Dance.

[23:26] Poetry. Which one? Absolutely. Playing football. Because I think football is a wonderfully creative activity.

[23:40] Because if you look at it, you say, there's this, there's a defender there, there's a goal there. Who would have thought that anybody could invent a shot that just went, whoa, right there, bang into the...

[23:51] That is fantastic. And that's creative. And I don't, you know, we shouldn't just let it all be the highbrow stuff, you know, literature, poetry and stuff. But, I mean, football is creative.

[24:04] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to put football because it is the beautiful game, isn't it? Cooking. Yeah. Cooking is creative.

[24:14] Problem solving is creative. I mean, if you think of AI, artificial intelligence, just correct me if I'm wrong.

[24:29] Artificial intelligence isn't actually, it's certainly artificial, but it isn't actually intelligent. It just looks at all the things that other people have done before and thinks, well, it thinks it sort of works out, well, that's probably the best answer.

[24:45] Something like that. But if you really want a problem solved from scratch, you've got to ask a person because a person is the creative one. I'm surprised you didn't say mathematics is creative.

[24:59] Yeah. Because here is a problem and to solve it, you actually have to think and come up with something that is the solution, don't you?

[25:12] The whole mathematical project has been building on what other people have found and it's a creative thing.

[25:23] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to put mathematics because I think we need to have a broad idea of what being creative is.

[25:46] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the person does it. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[25:58] Okay. Right. Relationships. Yes. Yes. So I think there's a...

[26:12] Creativity is quite a wide thing. So I want to focus on this one, art, for the purposes of this evening.

[26:23] And in a moment I want to ask Daniel and Irene to come and tell us about their creative work. But I want to stop on art. And I'm going to draw on Ellis Potter from Labrie.

[26:40] Do you remember anybody remember Ellis Potter coming and speaking to us? Yeah. And so you will remember this particular thing where he said, and he did it like this, what is art?

[26:56] What is art? Do you remember him saying that? Who can remember what the answer is? What would you say was the answer? What would you... Ask your person next to you what they would say the answer.

[27:07] What is art? What is art? What is art?

[27:38] Yeah. Okay. Let's... Pardon? Art is anything creative. That's a good answer.

[27:49] Anybody else come up with an answer? More specifically, I think it's representative of art. Look at something that's been...

[27:59] ...special art. Yeah. Yeah. There's... There's... That's a particular subset of sort of representational art. Yeah. I'll tell you what...

[28:09] Don't... Hang on. Let's wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. John Humphreys, who used to present the Today programme, he was very scathing, wouldn't he? Say, so-and-so's done, you know, what her name...

[28:22] Tracy Emmons' Unmade Bed. He said, is that art? He said, that's not art. But... Okay. Okay. Hold on. Right. This... Right. What...

[28:33] Expression. Expression. Expression. Yeah. I think that... I mean, I'll tell you what Ellis Potter said. He said, art is a deliberate human act.

[28:48] Art is a deliberate human act. And you think about that. Am I just at action?

[29:01] So, in other words... So, there can be good art and bad art. There can be complicated art and simple art. There can be ugly art and beautiful art.

[29:12] But if you think of it... I mean, this is quite a powerful definition because it's saying making a cup of tea can be art. And it depends what you put it... You know, make it nicely.

[29:24] Make it with love. Make it carefully. Put the right amount of milk in. Yeah. In some cultures, that is art.

[29:35] I mean, it isn't just a funny thing to say it's art, but it is art. And if you think about that, it actually links up with something that's going to be said in a couple of weeks, I think.

[29:46] But if art is a deliberate human act, something I choose to do, and might choose to do it well, I might choose to do it to the best of my ability, I might choose to do it in some beautiful way, I might choose to do it in an ugly way, I might choose to do it for God's glory, I might not bother, but it's a very wide definition, and I think well worth thinking about, actually, because it transforms life.

[30:19] So you don't actually have to be a poet or a musician or an architect to be an artist. And you can bring art in that sense into every moment of every day.

[30:37] Here's a... Yeah, it's a sort of trickle-down effect. And I suppose it's a trickle-up effect as well, because you're saying, here I am making a cup of tea, Lord, I'm making this for you, and the sense that the Lord accepts that and values it as something beautiful done for him.

[30:57] I'm not going to press that particular button too hard, because I think we'll probably come back to that in a couple of weeks. But I think that's a very transforming statement about the dignity of human creativity.

[31:13] I choose to do this particular thing, Lord, for you, even if it's ever so simple, and it's a creative act. Okay. So let's pause there for a moment.

[31:28] Could I ask you two to come up, and could I ask, could you kindly sit over there? Because the microphone went reach over there. I thought Italy, and then you came to the UK, and things changed a bit.

[31:41] just tell us a little bit. Yeah, we have a story about how we start. Starting many years ago, I opened my music etiquette, so I created music with musicians, and yeah, I started with that, and then I transformed everything from my company in a video producer.

[32:09] So I started with music producer, and then a video producer. Yeah, then also photography. How old were you when you started the music production business?

[32:21] 22. Yeah. Okay. I studied art since I was very young. I went to a art school, and I studied graphic design and photography.

[32:36] I also did other kind of things, like drawing, and also sculptures, things like that, but the main thing was graphic design and photography, so when I finished the study, I opened up my own business, and I was working as a graphic designer, and taking photos for everything that I need to complete my graphic design work, so every time I needed photos of items or things that needed to go on a flyer or on a catalog or things like that.

[33:05] Yeah. Have people seen Irene's graphics work on Instagram or Facebook or anything? and she's fantastic.

[33:19] Thank you. So, so are you both, is that what you're both doing now? So you're doing music production, you're earning a living doing graphic design?

[33:29] No. No, no. As many of you already know, yeah, since we moved here, we changed a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so we do, yeah, we put together what we, what we know, so I worked a lot with the video, she worked a lot with the photos, and we try to put together and we create our own company that I made, mostly is wedding photographer and videographer, social media content, interview, something about graphic as well.

[34:11] Anything that is related, yeah, to our work, but mainly, yeah, we, at the moment, it seems like we're very busy with weddings. At the moment, yes, the majority of our works is wedding.

[34:21] But you're also working for an estate agent? Yes, I also work for an estate agent, taking pictures of houses who always smile at me. Smile, chick. Easy.

[34:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Yes. And you, I have to be really careful what I say about people who take pictures of houses.

[34:42] So, you carefully make the best of the house when you take the photograph, and then you do magic things with it afterwards? Magic things is just to balance colors and light in order to present it very well.

[35:00] Yeah, okay. Right. Now then, I had, please feel free to ask some questions. I had some questions. So, how does your Christian faith impinge, affect your, your creative work?

[35:19] Do you want to answer? Go ahead. For me, a lot. So, I mean, think about God, think about what God teaches us.

[35:35] It's a lot on my creative. Because, so, when you start to create something, you can have a lot of way to create what you want to create.

[35:53] You can, you can choose to create in a bad way. So, I mean, in a situation is not good, it's ugly, how you said before, or in a beautiful way, or in a dark way, or in a light way.

[36:12] so, be a Christian, guide you about your heart, about your creativity. Because you bring what you've got inside.

[36:24] You bring your, yeah. Because, actually, you want to give the emotion you have inside. If you have light inside, you're going to get out light.

[36:37] If you have darkness inside, you're going to get out darkness. I also would say, God say to us, the Bible teach us, that when we do something, to do everything that we do for the glory of God, you say something similar before.

[36:56] And I think this is always at the back of my mind, you know, when I work. And sometimes it's about creativity, so bring things out when I work. So to send a message, especially like with my drawings that you mentioned before, before, I did some drawings, and some of you have it, so I did, I'm experimenting.

[37:17] I basically created some prints, some things with verses from the Bible, and so many actually people from the church are encouraging me to do it more, and I have a project that I'm working on it, because it will be very nice also to spread out the world of God in a nice way, with some drawings on it, so that people can also enjoy even to read it, to put it on a wall maybe, things like that.

[37:49] And also another thing is in my work, like you mentioned before, about photographing houses, houses, I have the chance to meet people quite often. And quite often I engage into chats or about anything.

[38:06] So if I have the chance, sometimes I meet very nice people, to talk about God is always a good thing. Yeah. But you can see the Christianity everywhere in the art.

[38:17] So if someone is a Christian person, like for example in the photography, photography. So if you do a portrait for one person, so the photo is not just the picture about someone, but you want that the photo go out some emotion.

[38:38] So if you make a picture of someone, you can choose as photographer, if you want that emotion, is a bad emotion, or is a good emotion.

[38:52] Of course, if you are a Christian, what you are looking for is something about joy, love, all the good things that God gives us.

[39:04] This is what a Christian wants. Thank you very much. So please chip in if you like. Richie, you do some fantastic art as well, actually.

[39:18] It's very good. Yeah. Yeah. does Christianity make a difference to you in that or how does that work? Yeah. it's a helpful thing, isn't it?

[39:47] You find it helpful? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[39:58] Yeah. Yeah.

[40:14] Yeah. Yeah. You have. The stuff you do is really good.

[40:25] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[40:39] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[40:50] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It's people being what people were meant to be.

[41:02] Can I just, it's a slightly different tack, but you did touch on it. When you're producing your photographs of a house to sell it, you do make it look attractive.

[41:16] That's a very minor example of something. You were saying about when you take a photograph of somebody, you can project an emotion.

[41:27] I mean, what about that famous painting of the French Revolutionary who was murdered in his bath? I mean, that is a...

[41:38] He was made to look like a martyr, and actually he was a fairly horrific guy. I mean, what about films like Clockwork Orange or Pulp Fiction, which are technically brilliant, but make you laugh at things that are not really funny?

[42:00] How, as Christians, do we make judgments of that sort? Yeah. Thank you. Well, I suppose the answer lies in the interconnection of these things, isn't it?

[42:16] And the idea that the wheat and the weeds grow together. So it is possible to have something which is technically inspired, but the message and motivation of it is subhuman and evil.

[42:28] So that's why we need wisdom to discern things, isn't it? Yeah. An interesting thought on that is that you can have an artistic presentation that appears to be dark, but could have like a message which appears to be evil on the surface, but the intention could be something different.

[42:47] So, like Alice Cooper, for example, is a born-again Christian. He's a believer. He's a brother. If you go to see his stage shows on the surface, it looks quite dark and horrific, but if you speak to him about it, his motivation is somewhat different.

[43:03] He'll say that he's trying to get over... I can't remember exactly what his words were. I wouldn't like to misquote him, but there are interviews out there. It's really quite an interesting way of presenting things, the motivation behind it.

[43:15] This is Alice Cooper. He has a lot of make-up on and really dark sort of gothic eyes. I mean, I don't know whether I can get my head around that, but he certainly has that side as a born-again believer, doesn't he?

[43:32] But, yeah, sorry, Ruth. Can we have the microphone? Because this is actually quite helpful. And if Katie wanted to listen at home, she'd be able to... Can I just say one before it goes? You can also, of course, you...

[43:46] along with similar lines, that sort of the creative side of humanity can be used to deceive as well.

[43:58] Yeah. In many ways. Yeah. Yes, there's a statement by Francis Schaeffer where he says, the artistic form enhances the didactic statement.

[44:11] The artistic form enhances the didactic statement. So, you're trying to say something, and the artistic form sort of gives it power and pushes that message.

[44:25] So, yeah, right, if the message that you're trying to push is an evil one, you can use a God-given gift of art to enhance that and push it out. Likewise, as you were saying, if you have a Christian message, you can, or a Christian sort of impetus, that the artistic form can bring that out, you know, in a photograph or in representations of...

[44:54] I mean, you do some flowers and things, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, flowers and things. And to say, you know, this is a good thing, this is something that God's made. Yeah, Ruth. I was just thinking, as you guys were sharing, there was a verse of a song that we sing from time to time that came to mind, and I'll read it in a second.

[45:17] I was just thinking of that desire that you alluded to, like where you, from your heart, you desire for those you're communicating with, the kind of bride and groom, or those you're creating work for, that there is that heart's longing, not just to kind of fulfill the brief and do your work well, but ultimately for them to know Christ and to see him in you and in the work, through the beauty of the work.

[45:48] And it reminded me of the last verse of, may the mind of Christ my Savior, may his beauty rest upon me as I seek the lost to win, and may they forget the channel, seeing only him.

[46:03] Thank you. Actually, if I can add one more thing that Ruth just said, is that a beautiful thing is that you also feel that desire to do something for God with the gift that God gave you.

[46:19] Just to give you an example, like when I was in Sicily, in the church, I remember there was a time when we needed new hymns, and we couldn't find new hymns with the songs we liked, and nobody knew what to do.

[46:33] And I was a graphic designer, so I bought, at the time, I had to buy a software because I needed to start doing things like catalogs and things like that. And my first thought was like, oh, as soon as I have this software, I'm going to learn it by making the new hymns for the church.

[46:50] And I remember this is what I did. So I did the hymns, and my dad helped me to correct them, to bound them. We bound them together, and then we brought all these hymns for the church.

[47:01] And that was the first thought for me, was the most important thing, was like, what can I do with this? Something for the church. You have that feeling inside. Thank you. I primed you up with another couple of questions, and I'll perhaps put them into one.

[47:19] So now you, let's say you're earning a living, it's not quite, so earning a living in the creative area. So what are the issues?

[47:33] Are there any drawbacks or issues that you come across, is one part of the question, and blessings is another part of the question.

[47:45] You sort of touched on the blessings, but are there any difficult areas that come your way that perhaps wouldn't come across other people's way? The first thing that comes up to my mind is that people rarely recognize a creative work as a job like the others.

[48:04] So we're making a living of it, but quite often people think that to create it's just something funny, enjoyable, it won't take you a lot of time. So quite often, one of the biggest issues is that people expect you to do things for free when you're actually working, and you know, and Richard knows how long it takes.

[48:25] It's quite often, you know, people come and say, oh, can you do this beautiful painting for me, expecting you do it for free, you know, but they don't know how many hours that's behind that work.

[48:37] All the, also talking about photo and video, the education. Daniel and I are always studying. We always invest because we're taking courses, we need to replace equipment because it becomes old.

[48:52] For instance, you probably heard like everyone nowadays about artificial intelligence. Everyone is talking about that. Daniel and I know about that since at least a year because we've been using it because we study, we are a little bit like a head, you know, like of these things and all these things so that people don't see, sometimes they don't appreciate or don't understand what's all the work behind.

[49:18] And although we would love to do things for free, free doesn't pay bills. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is one of the common issue because if you think like, I don't know, if you, if you ask an architect to do a work for you, you physically see the work so you wouldn't expect the architect to do it for free.

[49:48] You know? I hope so. Yeah. Is it true? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. That's been a three. It's really difficult for it because how you're going to say, if you don't, don't do that art for a long time, so you lose the ability to make a good art, a good creativity because you need to always practice and improve yourself because actually what you did before is not enough anymore.

[50:24] So like we said as a photographer, for example, I said here before, the motion. So you start to make picture, you want to have a good light, okay, you have a good light, now you have to have a good pause, okay, you have a good...

[50:40] When you are able to realize that a good picture, perfect picture, you want something more and you want to go through the emotion of your picture.

[50:52] So you always grow up in your art and your creative. If you stop, you go back. Yeah, so in other words, not like a machine. Yeah. You're putting something of yourself into it.

[51:05] Yeah. Steve. I was just going to pick up on the thing that Irina was saying about being paid for it. I mean, this is a fairly new idea that people would do art for free.

[51:18] I mean, people didn't think that in the Renaissance, you know, you didn't get... You know, depending on how good a paper pick, painter you were, the more money you're expected to get. And it particularly, perhaps, applies to Christian writers of Christian books and music.

[51:36] You know, sometimes people are a bit cavalier about copyright and so on and don't actually insist that the people should be paid for their work. I mean, that's what they do.

[51:47] It's their livelihood. You shouldn't expect them to do it for free just because they're Christians. Thank you. I'd be interested, Bill, I mean, you were for a long time a sort of creative craftsperson.

[52:02] How did you find being a Christian in that environment? Well, I worked in, for a number of years, I guess, in the high end of the fashion world, designing and making wonderful collections and clothes.

[52:20] Worked for a number of very good companies companies. Um, um, and in those companies, obviously, I think the element that perhaps I would have come across as, um, um, the non-Christian element in the workplace, I guess.

[52:37] Um, how to navigate, I suppose, through, um, people's, um, different views of life and the world and, um, it's been in the fashion industry, it's always very flamboyant, I guess.

[52:55] And, talking about worldly, very worldly. Um, but, um, I guess I managed to retain my, how would you say, my balance in the workplace.

[53:11] Integrity. And integrity as being, being a Christian, Yeah. I'll never let that, uh, actually, uh, slip. And, um, but, also, um, I suppose, it's working through that, um, environment, I guess, um, which is very creative, very expressive, and, um, I saw very creative people, very intelligent, clever, artistic people.

[53:44] Yeah. through, through, textile design, um, jewelry design, fabric, um, all sorts of fashion items, I guess.

[53:56] And, it, it, I saw that as a great beauty, and I saw that as something to be celebrated, I guess, and enjoyed.

[54:10] Although I guess there's a tension there because as a Christian you feel that the fashion world is not one that Christians should be identified with perhaps.

[54:22] You know, it's perhaps what one would call worldly. But I suppose there's that tension there. There's a tension. As a Christian. Yeah. And retired now, obviously.

[54:35] Looking back, it was a good life. Yeah. And met lots of wonderful people. And at times was able to witness and talk about Christ.

[54:50] And one particular job, we had great opportunities there and people became Christians. Through various witnesses there. And we used to have good times together and Bible studies at lunchtime and so forth.

[55:05] So that was a good thing. Yeah. And that was... We were allowed to do it then. I don't think perhaps you could do it in this age. That was quite... About 30 years ago, I guess.

[55:16] Well, when I was a lot younger. But, yeah. So it's quite complicated. Yeah. Thanks very much. I think David wanted to say something. Yeah. Yeah.

[55:28] I was just... You were asking about the challenges to doing... Making a living in the design field. I mean, for a while now, doing inspections for builders, I've not been on the creative side myself.

[55:41] But I see a lot of architects' drawings. And I would just say this. That I think in our country, I mean, architects are always... Their egos can become quite a problem.

[55:55] And they are always trying to... You know, it's like the most important thing about this new design you've been asked to do. It's got to be totally different to anything anyone's done. And then they get in a real pickle.

[56:05] Because they've made it totally different, then they've got to work out how to build it. And they're so obsessed with the pretty, pretty bit that they don't follow it up with a bit of... So there's...

[56:16] Yeah, I think egos can get very inflated. I mean, even in football, we touched on earlier. Ah. It can be very creative when you admire it. But then you can see people who have become semi-gods in the eyes of our culture.

[56:30] And it's suddenly a bit less attractive. Yeah. And, I mean, talk about payment. Thanks, David, for that. I mean, we used to... I don't know whether we still complain about fat cap bankers.

[56:42] But the amount of money that footballers earn, I mean, it's a scandal, isn't it? I mean, they do a great job, but that amount of money? Yeah.

[56:52] I was interested in Daniela talking about the amount of background sort of training and skill development and thinking and planning.

[57:11] And there's a parent, you know, that goes on in your mind in a creative thing. And it couldn't... And you put mathematics on the board.

[57:22] So I couldn't help but go back to... I'm going to... I'm going to do it off on my... When Steve here was doing his PhD, for example, because in mathematics, by the time you get to that level, then you're being truly creative because you're, in a sense, you're pushing the boundary of whatever mathematical specialism.

[57:47] And, of course, it takes you years and years to get there, just like it takes you years and years to build up your skills. And it all goes on in the head.

[57:58] So when he was doing his PhD, he probably, apparently, sort of put pen to paper or finger to word processor sort of, you know, for a bare few hours a day.

[58:12] But it's all going on in the head and creative. And I sort of... I joke that... Yeah.

[58:22] I joke that the difference between sort of... I'm not a real mathematician. He's a real mathematician because he has been known to wake up in the middle of the night and scribble...

[58:35] Occasionally scribble down, you know, the answer to a problem. Or his brain works on it over... I mean, not so much these days, but, you know, works on it overnight. And in the morning, you can sort of see the way forward.

[58:50] So it is creative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's a famous Dilbert cartoon, of course, which is about timesheets.

[59:06] And I can't remember all the details, but he says, you know, I'm filled in this timesheet. I've filled in the time I was in committee. I've filled in the time I was doing my paperwork. I've even filled in the time I spent spending in this timesheet.

[59:20] Oddly enough, the time I spent in the shower designing circuit boards in my head is not in the timesheet. Yeah, well, that's right. A bit like being a pastor, actually. Yeah, over here. Yeah.

[59:30] Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I just like what you said about the graphic design stuff. Like, when you design a website from scratch, the scratch takes more time than what comes out at the end of it.

[59:49] Because you have to design the code. You have to think about the end point. You have to design that in your head, which is sometimes what you're saying, Steve, about it's all thinking.

[60:01] You just think about it more. You have to design it. You have to destroy, even storyboarding something. Absolutely, yeah. And that's more, that's enjoyable more than the end product sometimes. Does that make sense?

[60:11] Yeah. Okay, I'm going to just, maybe one, I haven't finished asking you all the questions yet, but I think we will stop in a minute. Does anybody else want to say anything or ask anything?

[60:25] I was just going to mention, in my job, teaching English to foreign students, there's a lot of creativity in the classroom. And I was thinking of pronunciation and the phonemes and how I teach the student the weak forms in English.

[60:40] And we've been talking, you know, you just talk, but we don't really realize that we use the schwa, the uh sound. And I teach my students, you know, we don't say to the bathroom.

[60:52] We say to the bathroom. And to get that in there, and they're like, what? You don't say to, you say to? Yeah, that's a weak form. So, that's all about creativity, teaching them how the awareness of listening to connected speech and how the sounds link together that creates, you know, we don't put the T sometimes on words because it links, the vowel links with the consonant.

[61:22] So, that's, it's all kind of beautiful and creative. Well said. Yeah, thank you very much. Let's, let's stop, shall we? Let's stop. Now, what was the hymn that you quoted from?

[61:34] Let's sing that and then we'll say a prayer. May the mind of Christ my Saviour. Anybody find the number of that? Let's go. Thank you.