WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.820 So, welcome everyone. Let's open in prayer. 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:12.820 Father in heaven, we gather once again this Sunday morning to learn about your saints of old who've 00:00:12.820 --> 00:00:17.839 ! come before us to learn from their wisdom. We pray that you give us guidance by your eternal spirit who 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:24.879 guides into all truth. You would keep us united. You would help us to be prayerful, full of joy and 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:29.899 life by your life-giving spirit. And we ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen. 00:00:31.179 --> 00:00:38.560 We are now, I think this is class five in our creed series. It's, and the first class we did an overview 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:44.200 of creeds. Maybe this is class six. We did an overview of creeds. Then in the first class we did 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:51.840 pre-Nicene creeds, creeds before Nicaea. And then we talked about the Nicene creed. And then we also 00:00:51.840 --> 00:01:00.740 talked about the Apostles' creed after that, which did not come out of a council. Then we discussed 00:01:00.740 --> 00:01:07.200 Constantinople. And today we're going to talk about Ephesus and Chalcedon. And I have on the board just 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:13.620 a little chronological chart. Nicaea is the first big empire-wide council. There were lots of councils 00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:21.340 before that, but this discussed the deity of Jesus. And remember the, the guy who's associated 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:27.280 as the heretic against the council is Arius. Constantinople was the deity of the Holy Spirit. 00:01:28.740 --> 00:01:36.020 And this council effectively took the Nicene creed and expanded it. And then today we'll be talking 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:45.039 about Ephesus and in 431 AD and then Chalcedon in 451. So the period of the four great councils 00:01:45.039 --> 00:01:53.439 in church history goes from 325 with Nicaea, 381 Constantinople, 431 Ephesus, 451 Chalcedon. 00:01:53.739 --> 00:02:03.140 So about 125 year period, these councils are happening. We have maps today because maps are awesome. 00:02:03.140 --> 00:02:10.580 And actually I charted all this out with, with Nicaea and Constantinople. And then today we're going to 00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:15.780 look at Ephesus. So you might be wondering, what did they talk about with Ephesus? Well, 00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:26.039 they talked about the Virgin Mary because if you were running around Constantinople and Ephesus in the 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:32.139 early 400s, people were thinking about, you know, the deity of Jesus, the deity of the Holy Spirit, 00:02:32.139 --> 00:02:41.679 and there was some folks who started giving Mary this honorific, this title called Theotokos in Greek. 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:50.259 And that can be translated a variety of ways. The most literal way is, is the God begetter 00:02:50.259 --> 00:03:04.439 God begetter. It's also translated as, as a mother of God, which feels more theological. It feels like it 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:12.519 accords Mary a higher honor than simply God begetter. This was controversial. This word, Theotokos, had not 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:20.600 been used of Mary for a long time. If you do an intensive word study to try and track down when did people, 00:03:20.600 --> 00:03:31.000 when did that phrase, Theotokos, first emerge? The very first time it emerges is around 300 AD. 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:37.879 There is a theologian who wrote a book. We don't have the book, but we have the title, 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:45.460 and the title has the term Theotokos in it. We don't know if he opposed the term, if he coined the 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:51.680 term, if he thought it was a great term. We just know that's the first time someone used it. So it's 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:59.139 a new term. It's not something that Christians used in the first 250 or 300 years, as far as we're aware. 00:03:59.139 --> 00:04:06.219 And it was controversial, not just because it's new, but why would someone think the term mother of God 00:04:06.219 --> 00:04:11.479 might be controversial? Like something maybe you wouldn't want to say. 00:04:12.019 --> 00:04:13.500 Well, Mary is a human being. 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.939 So Mary's a human being, and if she's the mother of God, 00:04:18.719 --> 00:04:20.939 And Jesus is a total human being. 00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:28.800 It implies that Mary existed before God, that like God has a mother. It just brings up all these, 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:35.199 all these difficulties, potentially. However, if we look at it from the other side of things, 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:42.439 then there were people who said, well, look, you believe Jesus is fully God, right? That's what 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:50.060 these councils were about. He's fully God. So if Mary is his mother, then we need to call her 00:04:50.060 --> 00:04:56.040 the mother of God. And they would argue that people who didn't want to use that term were denying the 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:05.300 deity of Jesus. So you see this, this impasse here. And I just want to throw a bit of biblical wisdom 00:05:05.300 --> 00:05:12.139 in this. Paul talks about not getting in fights over words that he wants you to get at the substance of 00:05:12.139 --> 00:05:20.000 things and talk about. But here we have what seems to be a big fight over terminology. And on the one 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:28.800 hand, there was Nestorius. So just how Arius, the Council of Nicaea opposed Arius, the Council of Ephesus 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:39.079 opposed Nestorius. And Protestants will often categorize Nestorius as a heretic. You might be 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:49.639 interested to learn that Nestorius said we shouldn't use this term. It's too confusing. And I have passed out 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:56.779 a letter of Nestorius. It's the one with the staple on it, the dogmatic letters of Nestorius and Cyril of 00:05:56.779 --> 00:06:01.099 Alexandria. We are not going to read this whole thing. You can read it on your own time if you like. 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:09.039 But what we are going to do is we're going to go to page 347. And I want to read an excerpt where, 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:21.060 I think it's 347, maybe it's the next one. And no, it's 348. Top of 348. Second line of 348. 00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:29.160 And here he's talking about the term Theotokos. And listen to what he says about it. He says, 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:36.720 They even dare to treat of the Christ-bearing Virgin in a way as along with God. For they do not 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:43.100 scruple to call her Theotokos. When the holy and beyond all praise fathers at Nicaea, that's the 00:06:43.100 --> 00:06:49.879 Council of Nicaea, said no more of the Holy Virgin than that our Lord Jesus Christ was incarnate of the 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:55.680 Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Not to mention the scriptures which everywhere, both by angels and 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:04.120 apostles, speak of the Virgin as mother of Christ, not of God the Word. Here Nestorius is saying that, 00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:12.819 you know, scriptures don't really use this term. And when you use this term, it associates her with 00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:20.740 God, like elevates her on the status of God the Father. So God the Father is the Father of Jesus. 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:25.019 And then you have Mary, the mother of God. It feels like she's entering into the Trinity, 00:07:25.019 --> 00:07:30.419 which she should not be. We're going to find out that maybe Nestorius has gotten a little bit of a 00:07:30.419 --> 00:07:37.359 bad rap from people as of late. Because I guess if I'm honest, I kind of agree with him on this, 00:07:37.459 --> 00:07:47.399 that it's a confusing term. However, you might be wondering, why did the Council decide against 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:56.959 Nestorius? And why they decided against him? I think we will find out in the very next sentence. 00:07:57.799 --> 00:08:07.019 Because if we go on to, I presume, which is right after footnote seven, listen to this thing. This is a 00:08:07.019 --> 00:08:15.159 humdinger. He says, I presume that rumor has already informed your blessedness. He's talking to the Bishop of 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:20.680 Rome here. What conflicts we have endured for these things. And you have also learned that we have not 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:26.840 struggled in vain, but many of those who had gone astray have by the grace of the Lord repented. 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:33.860 Here we go. Learning from us that what is born is properly consubstantial with the parent, 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:40.259 and that it was to the creature of the Lord's humanity joined with God, being of the Virgin by the 00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:52.860 Spirit, that what was seen among men was committed. Exactly. This is a very difficult sentence to follow 00:08:52.860 --> 00:09:00.620 and understand. And this is how Nestorius writes. He's a rambler. He's confused. If you're writing 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:05.580 papers for class, do not write like this. This translation is a good one. I mean, it reflects 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:11.000 his thoughts and what the sentence is really like. It's really hard to figure out what he's trying to 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:17.879 say. What is committed? What is he talking about? And what are the reference here? I mean, it's just 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:24.120 very hard. And his writings are frequently like this. So imagine Nestorius, who I should mention, 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:31.820 was the Bishop of Constantinople. So he is a huge deal, huge deal. But he's coming out trying to make 00:09:31.820 --> 00:09:36.120 these arguments. And there are some other theologians, like Cyril of Alexandria, who are just running 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:42.760 circles around the guy, because he just can't get it out. He can't express his points of view 00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:53.020 particularly well. Who, Cyril? Nestorius. Nestorius, yes. He's very confused. He rambles. It's difficult to 00:09:53.020 --> 00:10:00.480 understand what he's saying. This council also had, there was a lot of politics behind it. So 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:06.580 anyway, he goes on to say, let's continue to read what he says. So then he says, 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:12.940 if anyone wishes to use this word, Theotokos, with reference to the humanity which was born 00:10:12.940 --> 00:10:20.060 and joined to God the Word. So he's trying to say, if you want to use the word Theotokos simply in 00:10:20.060 --> 00:10:26.420 reference to how Mary is the mother of Jesus's humanity and that humanity was joined to deity, 00:10:26.419 --> 00:10:32.179 and you're not using it with reference to the parent, we say that this word is not appropriate 00:10:32.179 --> 00:10:37.519 for her who gave birth, since a true mother should be of the same essence as what is born of her. I 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:43.659 think I've actually switched Nestorius's logic here. He's saying, if you want to use the word Theotokos 00:10:43.659 --> 00:10:50.120 to talk about Mary and how she's the mother of the deity, you shouldn't. But, he goes on, 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:56.060 but the term could be accepted in consideration of this, that the word is used by the virgin only 00:10:56.060 --> 00:11:02.120 because of the inseparable temple of God the Word, which was of her, not because she is the mother of 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:08.899 God the Word. For none gives birth to one older than herself. I know this is very confusing, and I 00:11:08.899 --> 00:11:15.019 think I switched one or two things earlier on, but what Nestorius is saying here is, okay, fine, 00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:20.299 if you really want to use this term, you can, as long as you're very careful that what you're talking 00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:26.120 about here is how Mary was the mother of the humanity of Jesus, and the humanity of Jesus was 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:31.720 joined with the Godhead, and so in that sense, she's mother of God, but not in the sense that she gave 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:37.919 birth to deity, that she started deity, that she began the existence of God, which is what mothers 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:44.519 normally do. They begin the existence of someone. So, Nestorius here actually takes, though very confused 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:49.699 and difficult to follow, he takes kind of a moderate line. He's like, well, we got to be careful here. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:12:02.379 So, the council goes on, they consider these things, and they decide against Nestorius, and they decide 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:10.139 that not only should you use theotokos, but you must use theotokos, that it's not okay for some people 00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:17.620 to do it. Everyone needs to do it, and this is a pretty extreme position, because what if someone 00:12:17.620 --> 00:12:25.519 doesn't want to use it? What if to them that word communicates bad things? So, the council decides 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:29.879 that, and Nestorius gets kicked out. This is all very complicated. We have to summarize several things 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:37.080 here, and what ends up happening is that the Persian church, which is the church of the east, which is 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:44.040 part of the Sasanian Persian Empire. You see on the map here, this is a massive empire with a huge 00:12:44.040 --> 00:12:48.639 number of Christians that we don't know very much about in the west, but they did leave a very vibrant 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:55.879 legacy that still continues to this day. This church decides, actually, we don't want to use the term 00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:04.500 theotokos. We don't think it's a good one, so we're not going to use it. And that causes a massive split, 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:13.620 where this church split off from the rest of the church and remains split to this very day. 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:15.259 They still exist. 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:16.899 Didn't that start in 1051? 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:24.679 No. That was the split between the Latin church and the Greek church, the Byzantine church in Europe. 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:30.120 That was a European split. So, the Great Schism, when people say the Great Schism, they're talking 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:38.039 about the European east and European west split that happened in 1050-something. But this schism could 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:45.320 also rightly be called the Great Schism because of how massive it was. And the interesting thing is 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:53.000 that the Church of the East is often called the Nestorian church. And the curious thing about this is 00:13:53.000 --> 00:14:02.799 that Nestorius was from Constantinople. He wasn't Persian. So, it's unclear if they should really be 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:12.519 called the Nestorian church. Nestorianism classically believes that there were two persons in Jesus. 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:19.480 There was a divine Jesus and a human Jesus that combined together. That's the heresy of Nestorianism. 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:28.039 However, Nestorius himself, it's not entirely clear if he actually believed that. With Arius, 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:35.320 it's pretty clear this is exactly what Arius believed. But with Nestorius, it's not... He's a very 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:42.120 confused writer. He's a very confused writer. And it's not entirely clear what is going on. 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:49.879 There's another issue is what did people who followed Nestorian, Nestorius' teachings believe? What 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:59.639 did Nestorians believe? And that's also a confused issue, which I'll explain once we get to Chalcedon. 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:05.399 I know we're covering a lot of material here, but we actually have a lot left to go over with Chalcedon. So, 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:12.840 I want to pause and see if there's any questions about this. So, in other words, Arius, big bad heretic. 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.959 Nestorius, 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:24.439 maybe, maybe. But certainly his teachings are of a completely different order than Arius. We're not 00:15:24.439 --> 00:15:27.959 talking about similar levels of misguided teaching. 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:36.519 Miskided teaching. 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:38.440 We're gonna get to that. 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:38.920 Oh, okay, no, no, no. 00:15:38.920 --> 00:15:39.480 Sorry, sorry. 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.159 Yes, yes, we're gonna get to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:44.039 Yeah. 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:52.519 So, if God is sinless, and Jesus is sinless, that would make Mary sinless, just by common sense. 00:15:53.159 --> 00:16:00.840 But according to the Bible, after she gave birth, she went to the temple to sacrifice whatever it was, 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:08.440 turtle doves, which makes her sinful, not sinless, because she went to the temple to offer sacrifice. 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:14.600 And then Jesus always went to the temple, but he never sacrificed. He was the sacrifice. He always 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:22.680 went to synagogue or the temple to teach. He never went to sacrifice. But Mary did. So, that Theotoko 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:37.959 was the mother of God, because she's sinful. So, one of the interesting things, so Nestorius's letter, you know, he says in his letter that, hey, this term 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:47.799 associates Mary with the Godhead in a way that human beings should not be associated with. And his warning has kind of turned out to be true. When you look at 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:53.479 a Mariology in the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, where Mary has this very, 00:16:53.479 --> 00:17:04.279 very exalted role, where she's in the Roman Catholic Church said to be sinless, that she was assumed into heaven, that she's the mother of heaven, you know, that she has all these titles. 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:13.399 Some people call her co-redeemer. It's interesting that that has borne out that kind of warning and caution against this term. 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:19.640 On the other hand, there are Protestant traditions that use this term. Anglicans will use this term. 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.720 I can't remember if some Lutherans will use it. They might in some of their liturgy. 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:31.880 And I do want us, like at Trent here, I think as mature Christians, we need to be careful not to 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:38.680 have hair triggers for terminology. That people use words and they don't always mean the same things. 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:44.519 And we always want to be careful to know, like, what do you mean by that? What do you mean when you say Mary was the mother of God? 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:53.240 Well, she did give birth to the God-man. So if that's what you mean, then okay. But if you mean something else, but we also want to, 00:17:53.480 --> 00:18:00.279 we want to be aware of how people interpret our terminology as well. So we want to, we want to be careful with that. 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:05.000 This whole terminology question is going to become another one with Chalcedon, which we're going to find out 00:18:05.879 --> 00:18:11.160 in just a moment. Any other last, last quick questions before we, before we go on? So 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:17.720 Ephesus did not release a creed. They released certain letters. They released some statements, 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:22.119 excommunications, things like that. They didn't actually have a creed like Nicaea and Constantinople, 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:33.719 but they wanted Theotokos to be used. Chalcedon, 20 years later, comes around and is the last of the great 00:18:33.719 --> 00:18:45.319 councils. And this one discussed how the deity of Jesus and the humanity of Jesus could be combined 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:50.839 together. Because if you think about it, you know, if you, I'm going to, I'm going to use two crude 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:56.359 examples here. I have an eraser and I have a marker and they're two different things, right? Two different, 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:02.039 you have the nature of an eraser here and the nature of a marker here. And if you want to combine these 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:08.200 two things together, it's kind of hard to do. You could glue it, but then you just have a thing glued to 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:14.359 an eraser. You could maybe actually secretly, this is actually a marker with an eraser on it. So you could 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:20.359 do that, but then, I don't know, it's kind of like a hybrid. I mean, if you take a tiger and a lion and 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:28.679 put them together, you get a liger. That's neither. It's like a hybrid. So saying that Jesus is both 00:19:28.679 --> 00:19:34.039 human and both divine, 100 percent, lacking in nothing with respect to the humanity and the divinity, 00:19:34.919 --> 00:19:41.879 feels contradictory to some people. It feels beyond mysterious. It feels contradictory. That can't happen. 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:47.560 And of course, the easy response to this is, well, yeah, you know, if God was an eraser, 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.120 you couldn't do that. But God is on a completely different plane of existence. He's not in the 00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:57.380 material plane here. So you're not talking about two physical objects coming together like a lion and a 00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:05.000 tiger. You're talking about a being that is beyond our physical space-time continuum, and he's totally 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:10.680 able to do this. That's what God is. That's what he does. He can do this. So it's not contradictory. 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:18.519 However, this was heavily debated, highly debated. People disputed it. People started coming up with 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:25.460 all sorts of terms. And I'm going to erase the board here, or at least part of it. Uh-oh. It's not 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:33.960 erasing very well. The spray bottle? Okay. Behind it? Okay. Well, let me just see if I can... 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:45.039 So people started trying to use terminology to describe how the deity and humanity of Jesus 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:52.000 were connected or linked or combined or whatever term you want to use. And the definition of Chalcedon 00:20:52.000 --> 00:21:01.900 got together to talk about this issue. And one thing we want to keep in mind is, uh, 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:10.079 couldn't Astorius have submitted to this? And we're going to find out that maybe yes. And then, uh, 00:21:10.460 --> 00:21:16.720 what do we think about this definition? So let's read it. Uh, following therefore the Holy Fathers, 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:24.460 we confess one and the same, our Lord Jesus Christ. So there's not two, there's one guy. 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:32.039 And we all teach harmoniously that he is the same perfect in Godhead, the same perfect in manhood, 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:38.860 truly God and truly man, the same of a reasonable soul and body, consubstantial with the father in 00:21:38.860 --> 00:21:46.380 Godhead, and the same consubstantial with us in manhood, like us in all things, except sin. 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:54.079 Let's, uh, keep going. Begotten before ages of the father in Godhead, the same in the last days 00:21:54.079 --> 00:22:02.059 for us and for our salvation, born of Mary, the virgin theotokos in manhood, one in the same Christ, 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.500 son, Lord, unique, acknowledged in two natures without confusion, without change, without division, 00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:13.100 without separation. The difference of the natures being by no means taken away because of the union, 00:22:13.099 --> 00:22:20.240 but rather the distinctive character of each nature being preserved and each combining in one person 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:26.579 and hypostasis. We'll talk about that, not divided or separated into two persons, but one in the same 00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:32.839 son and only begotten God word, Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets of old and the Lord Jesus Christ himself 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:38.679 taught us about him and the symbol or the creed of the fathers has handed down to us. 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:45.759 So that is one very, very long sentence, but it's a little easier to follow than the stories of sentences. 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:52.120 And I want to kind of go through it, talking about what each of these things mean and why they're expressed. 00:22:52.240 --> 00:23:02.580 And then I am going to highlight a couple areas that are, are, are sources of, of confusion or conflict even today. 00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:11.740 So let's begin at the top. So they say we're following the Holy father. So they believe they are expressing the faith that has been passed down to them. 00:23:11.899 --> 00:23:17.539 And what do they confess? The same, our Lord Jesus Christ, meaning we only have one Jesus. 00:23:17.659 --> 00:23:24.339 We don't have two Jesuses, a human Jesus, a divine Jesus combining. No, no, no. One, one Lord. 00:23:24.339 --> 00:23:35.459 And this Lord, he's the definition says is the same perfect in Godhead, the same perfect in manhood, truly God, truly man. 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.879 That means he didn't have like 98% of humanity. He had the whole thing. 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:44.959 We're not talking about a hybrid where you have 50% tiger, 50% lion combining together. 00:23:45.159 --> 00:23:53.039 That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about where the deity and humanity is both perfectly expressed and they're careful. 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:58.740 They go on, they say truly God and truly man. They say the same of a reasonable soul. 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:08.240 That's important because sometimes when people say, when people would say in the past that Jesus was truly human, 00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:11.819 people would interpret that as simply referring to the physical flesh. 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.299 And what the definition is saying is we are more than just flesh. We have mind, soul, spirit. 00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:26.519 Jesus had all those things as well. This is what a Apollinarius got in trouble for because he thought that Jesus didn't have a human mind. 00:24:26.639 --> 00:24:32.759 He had a divine mind. And this is saying, no, no, he is everything we have. 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:37.680 He has with the exception of sin. He's not sinful. 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:47.220 It goes on to use that word consubstantial that we've seen before right here, consubstantial with the father. 00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:55.580 So that is of the same substance, of the same essence as the father with respect to the Godhead, with the deity. 00:24:55.579 --> 00:25:01.179 But he is consubstantial with us with respect to his manhood. 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:04.259 So he is united with God. 00:25:04.339 --> 00:25:09.159 He's the same nature as God the father with his divinity. 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.279 But with his humanity, he's the same substance as us. 00:25:13.919 --> 00:25:19.939 And then it says he was begotten before all ages of the father with respect to the Godhead. 00:25:19.940 --> 00:25:29.840 And this is very important. It means that Jesus existed before all ages as the divine word, as the supreme son of God. 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:36.259 But he did not always exist humanly or his human nature did not always exist. 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:43.700 His human nature came into existence in the last days for us and for our salvation when he was born of Mary, the virgin. 00:25:43.700 --> 00:25:48.120 So that human aspect, that's the incarnation. 00:25:48.360 --> 00:25:51.920 That's the aspect of God descending and taking on humanity. 00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:56.039 So he becomes physically human. 00:25:56.620 --> 00:25:58.980 And then he's born of Mary, the virgin. 00:25:59.120 --> 00:26:01.740 And then they use that term, theotokos. 00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:05.259 So she is the God bearer or the mother of God. 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.220 But they use this term in manhood. 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:08.100 We'll come back to that. 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:10.120 And then they reaffirm. 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:13.239 This is one and the same Christ, son, Lord. 00:26:13.439 --> 00:26:14.379 He's unique. 00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:16.819 Meaning that we're not talking about two people. 00:26:16.919 --> 00:26:18.519 They're trying to reiterate this. 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.619 It's not two people. 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:26.619 In two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation. 00:26:26.979 --> 00:26:28.379 This is another important thing. 00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:37.440 Because if you took two natures and combine them together in the physical world, there can be situations where you're mixing them up. 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:38.760 You're confusing them. 00:26:39.060 --> 00:26:41.900 You're getting some kind of solution out of them. 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.140 You know, you put water and some other liquid together and you shake it all up and you have something else. 00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:48.040 You know, water and milk. 00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:52.960 And they're saying, no, these natures are not compromised by this union. 00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:55.160 They are the same. 00:26:55.160 --> 00:27:01.820 And it says the difference of the natures is by no means taken away because of the union. 00:27:02.019 --> 00:27:04.420 So he's fully God, fully man. 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:12.019 But rather, the distinctive character of each nature is preserved, each combining in one person and hypostasis. 00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:13.060 We'll talk about that in a moment. 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:15.860 Not divided or separated into two persons. 00:27:15.859 --> 00:27:25.059 But one and the same son and only begotten God, word, Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets of old and the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us about him. 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:29.479 And the symbol, the creed of the fathers, has handed down to us. 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:42.360 So in Western tradition, this is like bar none the definitive statement about the nature of Jesus, where it's very clear there are two natures in Christ, human and divine. 00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:44.700 It expresses what those natures are. 00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:46.000 It's not partially human. 00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:52.539 It's the whole of humanity and the whole of the divinity united together in this mysterious union. 00:27:52.539 --> 00:27:54.680 But they're not altering one another. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.720 The distinctive properties of each are preserved. 00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:08.379 Before we talk about the ramifications of this, any just observations or questions about this definition? 00:28:08.899 --> 00:28:12.940 We're going to find out that actually this turned out to be really controversial. 00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:15.299 Very, very controversial. 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.220 And we'll see why in a moment here. 00:28:18.220 --> 00:28:21.819 I can't see why because I would sign that. 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:23.940 Yeah, I'd sign it too. 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:31.000 So I can't see why either because it seems to reconcile both sides pretty well. 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.900 With the possible exception of Theotokos. 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:38.660 Yes, so there is the Theotokos part. 00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:41.620 So let's actually, let's talk about that. 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:43.680 So this Theotokos thing. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.279 So one problem is, of course, if you're just anti-Theotokos, you're not going to like it, right? 00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:50.960 If you're just totally anti-Theotokos, you're not going to like this. 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:53.920 Many Protestants today are anti-Theotokos. 00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:59.060 The other problem is that it says Theotokos in manhood. 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.660 Now, for some people, that's comforting because they say, oh, see, it's qualifying Theotokos. 00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:11.539 It's saying that, yes, she's the God-bearer, but only with respect to the fact that she bore the manhood of Jesus, 00:29:11.539 --> 00:29:15.680 the humanity of Jesus, and the humanity of Jesus was united with the divinity. 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:17.339 That's the only reason why we're using that. 00:29:18.339 --> 00:29:24.200 But some people look at this and they say, I understand what you're saying, but that's not what it says. 00:29:24.819 --> 00:29:29.599 It doesn't, it says, it says something that actually doesn't make sense. 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:36.839 It says she's God-bearer in manhood, but God-bearer means she bore God, not manhood. 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.500 She'd be the anthropos-Tokos or something. 00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.579 So they just find that to be a confusing phrase. 00:29:43.959 --> 00:29:50.299 The way that it's explained that it's Theotokos only with respect to she begot the humanity of Jesus, 00:29:50.419 --> 00:29:52.339 which was united in the God, that makes sense. 00:29:52.419 --> 00:29:54.139 It just seems poorly expressed here. 00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.079 Like Theotokos in manhood, what exactly is that getting at? 00:29:57.399 --> 00:29:58.839 This is supposed to be a definition. 00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.059 It's supposed to be clear. 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:02.919 And some people find it to be unclear. 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:12.480 She gave birth to a baby boy, it's a man, but that man turned out to be the second person of the Trinity. 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:14.279 Agreed. 00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:15.940 Agreed. 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.060 Well, let's go to another one. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:20.740 Lewis. 00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:23.759 Was Theotokos the thing that they were worried about when they were doing it? 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:26.720 It was definitely one of them. 00:30:27.320 --> 00:30:28.180 I'm not sure. 00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:30.460 The bigger issue was the two persons. 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:37.160 The two persons issue of two persons in Christ was the issue, that Christ is not two persons. 00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:50.019 Another issue was that the mixing of the natures, that we don't have, we have two natures that are not mixed or changed or hybrid or deficient or somehow. 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:51.319 They're both there. 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.819 But Theotokos is an issue, but it's not one of the primary. 00:30:54.819 --> 00:30:55.539 Yeah. 00:30:55.539 --> 00:30:55.539 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.740 I thought that was part of the story of Theotokos. 00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:06.439 It was essentially us in the future sort of reading stuff into the past that was not a primary concern. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:06.819 Yes. 00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:08.119 That these people try to explain. 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.279 Yeah, I think you're right. 00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:12.559 It's not really important for being like, okay, you know, it should always be clear. 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:14.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.099 That's not what you're worried about. 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:15.960 Agreed. 00:31:16.159 --> 00:31:16.519 Agreed. 00:31:16.879 --> 00:31:17.599 That's a great point. 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:22.799 Let's go on to another aspect that was more controversial. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.579 So this one, acknowledged in two natures. 00:31:26.980 --> 00:31:27.200 All right. 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:28.940 Now we look at that and we're like, well, yeah. 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:34.079 But imagine someone saying, what do you mean acknowledged in two natures? 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.500 He is in two natures. 00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:40.339 Do you mean we only think of him as in two natures, but he's not actually in two natures? 00:31:40.419 --> 00:31:41.599 We just acknowledge it? 00:31:42.259 --> 00:31:44.319 It just felt weak to some people? 00:31:45.159 --> 00:31:46.940 Because remember, this is a definition. 00:31:47.659 --> 00:31:49.180 So it's supposed to be clear. 00:31:49.180 --> 00:31:56.600 But the bigger issue was that this is where we get, there's a church theological tradition 00:31:56.600 --> 00:32:03.320 called Maya physitism, which are people who believe Jesus only had one nature. 00:32:03.940 --> 00:32:09.400 Now, before you think that's heretical, let me explain their point of view, because it does 00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:10.480 sound very heretical to me. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.380 But what they would say, this is what Cyril of Alexandria would express, is he would say, 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:22.140 look, there's only one nature, the divine nature. 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:24.620 And when you say, well, then you're denying the humanity of Jesus. 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:26.960 He says, I am not. 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:33.519 Because to him, human nature and divine nature are two different levels of existence. 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:37.779 And the human nature is subsumed in the divine nature. 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:39.920 And before you think, okay, but doesn't that violate? 00:32:40.139 --> 00:32:40.639 No, no, no. 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:42.480 He'll say, think about it this way. 00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:45.180 And I'm just, I'm not saying I agree with this. 00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:46.680 I'm just expressing what Cyril would say. 00:32:46.819 --> 00:32:48.160 He would say, you're human, right? 00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:49.079 We're all human here. 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:49.720 Good. 00:32:49.940 --> 00:32:51.400 You're 100% human, right? 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.339 Okay, great. 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.160 But don't you also have the nature of like bone and blood and hair? 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.160 Don't you have that nature also? 00:33:00.879 --> 00:33:01.319 Yeah. 00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:03.339 Well, aren't you four natures then? 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:03.939 No. 00:33:04.419 --> 00:33:05.859 Well, what are you then? 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:10.000 And what Cyril would say is, you are human in respect to your nature. 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:16.759 That nature is made up of these sub-natures like bone and blood and hair and stuff. 00:33:17.299 --> 00:33:19.099 And those are sub-natures. 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:23.019 They are lesser on the order of being than human. 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:29.480 And so we can freely say we are one nature, even though we know we have all these other sub-natures. 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:35.960 So when Cyril or people like him say Jesus is one nature, that's what they mean. 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:46.039 They mean that there's this nature of the deity that then has this sub-nature of humanity that is taken up in it. 00:33:46.099 --> 00:33:47.140 And it's fully human. 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:49.099 Whatever you want to say, it's fully there. 00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:53.859 And they were really, they felt very, very strongly about this. 00:33:53.959 --> 00:34:01.740 They felt like you are exalting the nature of humanity to be on par with the nature of the deity when you talk about Jesus in two natures. 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:08.559 You need to exalt the deity first and then explain this other sub-nature of humanity. 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:16.159 I feel like they're getting bent out of shape out of semantics there, but that was important to them. 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:24.199 Then there was this issue, hypostasis here. 00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:33.219 So it says here that these two natures are combining in one person and hypostasis. 00:34:33.219 --> 00:34:38.919 And the Greek term for that is prosopon, so one prosopon and one hypostasis. 00:34:39.359 --> 00:34:50.000 In Greek, this is translated as one person, and hypostasis is basically synonymous with person or maybe an instance of a nature. 00:34:50.919 --> 00:34:53.039 So these are effectively synonymous terms. 00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:02.679 But this, and we call this today the hypostatic union, the union of the two natures of Jesus in one person, we call it the hypostatic union. 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.059 Right? 00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:03.519 Boom. 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:03.880 Done. 00:35:05.659 --> 00:35:11.400 The problem with this is if we go back to the Council of Nicaea on your other handout. 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:20.039 We go back to the Council of Nicaea, which this statement affirms, the symbol of the fathers of others. 00:35:20.220 --> 00:35:23.599 We go there, and remember how the Council of Nicaea ends? 00:35:23.720 --> 00:35:25.559 It just says, oh, and we believe in the Holy Spirit. 00:35:25.680 --> 00:35:30.039 That's why they had Constantinople afterwards, right, to add on, to talk about the Holy Spirit. 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:37.780 Well, if we keep reading, it says, but as for those who say there was a time when he was not, and before being born he was not, 00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:48.260 and that he came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance or subject to alteration or change, 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.640 these the Catholic or universal and apostolic church anathematizes. 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:52.300 They kick out. 00:35:53.180 --> 00:35:57.700 So, okay, it says, you know, if anyone denies that Jesus was eternal, we kick them out. 00:35:57.740 --> 00:36:05.780 But it says if anyone says he is of a different hypostasis than God, they're out. 00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:15.560 But then Chalcedon says he has his own hypostasis. 00:36:16.340 --> 00:36:17.519 Does that make sense? 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:24.840 Now, what's going on here is that this was written in 451. 00:36:26.540 --> 00:36:27.980 Come on, what's going on here? 00:36:28.300 --> 00:36:29.880 This was written in 451. 00:36:30.100 --> 00:36:31.420 This was written in 325. 00:36:31.580 --> 00:36:32.519 There's 125 years. 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:38.119 Over 125 years, what people meant by hypostasis changed. 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:41.739 It originally meant nature or substance. 00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:43.300 It became... 00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:46.079 Why is my thing acting up on me here? 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:51.780 It became person later on. 00:36:53.019 --> 00:37:00.960 So, in other words, there doesn't seem to be a contradiction here when you properly understand these terms in their proper historical context. 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.619 But you can understand how confusing this would be to people who are trying to read these things. 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:10.760 And this caused disputes. 00:37:11.240 --> 00:37:14.099 So, where did it cause disputes? 00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:26.820 Well, remember, the Church of the East has already split from the greater church after Ephesus in 431. 00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:33.480 Curiously, as John pointed out, Nestorius is said to have agreed with the definition of Chalcedon. 00:37:33.700 --> 00:37:38.000 And the Church of the East, later on, signs on to the definition of Chalcedon. 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:52.800 So, what's interesting is that today, people still say the Church of the East is historian, but they have expressly, for 1,500 years now, signed off on this statement that says there is no two persons in Jesus. 00:37:53.559 --> 00:38:00.820 That there's two natures and one person, which is the exact opposite of Nestorianism. 00:38:00.820 --> 00:38:11.100 But they're often called Nestorian because of this association with Nestorius, because they didn't want to use the term Theotokos, which, by the way, they just kind of signed off on. 00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.260 Using it in a very particular way, they signed off on it. 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:20.220 Despite this, they're still separated from the greater church. 00:38:20.680 --> 00:38:25.280 So, they kind of signed off on it, but there was a lot of churches that didn't. 00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.720 The Assyriac Church said, no. 00:38:28.080 --> 00:38:30.240 The Coptic Church said, we don't like this. 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.320 The Nubian Church said, I'm going home. 00:38:32.740 --> 00:38:36.060 The Ethiopian Church said, sayonara. 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:38.600 The Armenian Church says, this game isn't fun anymore. 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.940 And the Georgian Church said, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home. 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:45.260 And all these churches left. 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.340 These are not minor churches. 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.100 They're actually pretty big and important. 00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:57.940 And if we take the example of Armenia, which Armenia is a very tiny country today. 00:38:58.279 --> 00:39:02.679 But back in the day, you know, the Armenian Empire was pretty big. 00:39:02.779 --> 00:39:05.219 There was Armenian people all over this area. 00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:12.319 And, you know, this is like an area larger than Germany or about the size of Germany where Armenians were. 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:14.699 And they left. 00:39:14.819 --> 00:39:17.980 And that's not to speak of Ethiopia and Nubia and Egypt. 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.839 I mean, these are really, really, really big churches. 00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:23.320 And they decided to leave. 00:39:23.860 --> 00:39:28.000 They all, except the Georgian Church, which later on in its history reunited. 00:39:28.579 --> 00:39:34.720 But these churches are today classed as the Oriental Orthodox churches. 00:39:35.100 --> 00:39:40.300 So there's the Eastern Orthodox churches, which come out of the Greek Byzantine area. 00:39:40.300 --> 00:39:46.360 But then there is the Oriental Orthodox, which are the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Syriac Church, the Armenian Church. 00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:47.700 There's the Indian Orthodox. 00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:53.240 They are part of a different church with tens of millions of people. 00:39:53.700 --> 00:39:55.019 They still exist today. 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.539 The Nubian Church historically has pretty much gone extinct, although there's many newer believers. 00:40:00.820 --> 00:40:02.760 But all the other churches are still around. 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:05.340 So they left. 00:40:05.720 --> 00:40:08.000 And they've been gone ever since. 00:40:08.600 --> 00:40:09.420 Lewis, did you have a question? 00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:09.880 Yeah. 00:40:10.180 --> 00:40:18.160 If you're really going to show how the East was worth, didn't the Church of the East get pulled away to China? 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:18.600 Yes. 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:19.920 Yes. 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:28.980 So the Church of the East went all the way to China and southern India and Sri Lanka and off the coast of Somalia, southern Arabia. 00:40:29.139 --> 00:40:30.280 That's the Church of the East. 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:38.460 So the fact that all these churches, so we could continue this map over like this. 00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:40.619 It's a pretty big split. 00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:45.079 It's actually way bigger than the Great Schism of 1051. 00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:56.319 And the other issue with this is if we look at the definition. 00:40:56.460 --> 00:40:57.119 Let me go back to it. 00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:01.539 If we look at the definition, remember that these churches, this is written in Greek. 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.980 And these churches are reading this in Greek. 00:41:05.179 --> 00:41:08.679 And even Greek folks are struggling with this word hypostasis. 00:41:09.019 --> 00:41:12.059 We actually have letters from someone like Jerome. 00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:15.940 Jerome is this illustrious translator of Greek texts into Latin. 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.259 He's writing around like 420, you know, 30 years before this or 40 years before this. 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:25.500 And he's talking about how he went to, I think it was Constantinople. 00:41:25.699 --> 00:41:28.619 And people were using these theological terms like this. 00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:31.820 And he was telling them, that's not what that word means. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:33.759 And they were like, no, that's what the word means. 00:41:33.779 --> 00:41:35.119 And he's like, that's not what it means to me. 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:40.859 And so just imagine being in this debate where people are using these highly technical terms in different ways, 00:41:41.219 --> 00:41:42.579 going back and forth with each other. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.259 It was a difficult time. 00:41:47.139 --> 00:41:50.480 So let's bring this forward to the present. 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.920 Any questions, though, before I keep going? 00:41:56.920 --> 00:41:58.480 Could we close the door over there? 00:41:58.599 --> 00:41:59.719 Is that okay if we close that door? 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:01.219 Could we close the door? 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:01.940 Is that all right? 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:02.199 Yeah. 00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.960 Any questions? 00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:08.359 Yes. 00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:10.059 I have a more theological question. 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:19.199 How did the church understand the addition or the preparation of the humanity into the Godhead? 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:21.139 That's a great question. 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:24.539 Did the Godhead change in time? 00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.599 How did they understand that? 00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:27.839 That's a great question. 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:30.579 That's beyond my pay grade. 00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:32.719 I haven't studied that question. 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.779 So how did the church understand? 00:42:36.980 --> 00:42:42.199 So when the divinity, when the humanity of Jesus was in some sense incorporated into the Godhead, 00:42:42.399 --> 00:42:44.139 did that change the Godhead? 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:45.399 Like what's going on there? 00:42:45.459 --> 00:42:46.639 How did the church explain? 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:54.019 So now you have humanity, a human nature sitting on the right hand of the Father in heaven for the rest of eternity. 00:42:54.019 --> 00:42:56.679 So that's a big change. 00:42:57.380 --> 00:42:59.340 And what exactly is going on there? 00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:00.759 I mean, that's a great question. 00:43:01.019 --> 00:43:02.880 I guess I have to say I don't know. 00:43:03.539 --> 00:43:06.920 There was a deacon in our last church, and he said it perfectly. 00:43:07.099 --> 00:43:08.380 I never thought about it this way. 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:11.920 He said, there is a man in heaven. 00:43:12.259 --> 00:43:12.460 Yeah. 00:43:14.539 --> 00:43:17.039 There's a God like this in heaven. 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:17.559 Yes. 00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:23.279 Now, I will say, remember that right in the opening chapters of Genesis, we are made in God's image. 00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:27.840 So the image of God has always been in heaven because we're made in his image. 00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.159 And then this was prophesied in the scriptures. 00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:34.659 Daniel says, I saw one like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.159 whose all people shall serve and whose kingdom shall have no end. 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:45.719 When you think about that, what he's saying, that term son of man in Aramaic was just a term for humanity. 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.519 I saw someone who looked human coming on the clouds of heaven, 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:51.719 who's going to rule all people forever. 00:43:52.799 --> 00:43:54.480 His kingdom will never end. 00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.039 That feels like a divine quality. 00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:01.939 Riding on the clouds of heaven is a divine quality descending from heaven down. 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.799 He's not reigning on earth and undergoes apotheosis where he's divinized. 00:44:07.919 --> 00:44:09.259 No, he's coming down. 00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:11.879 So Daniel has prophesied this. 00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:17.440 So it's not this all of a sudden sudden rupture in Jewish theology or Old Testament theology. 00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:20.480 But at the same time, it's a change in a sense. 00:44:20.660 --> 00:44:23.400 I mean, but he was always there. 00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:28.820 I mean, the son, as who is our image, was always there. 00:44:29.300 --> 00:44:33.360 But there is this physical aspect now. 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.519 Lewis? 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.500 So I thought the one thing I heard, I don't know, I don't know, 00:44:38.660 --> 00:44:42.220 one of the things I heard is that the hypersetic human is like marriage. 00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:43.420 You get married. 00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:44.420 Yeah. 00:44:44.740 --> 00:44:46.980 And if you get married, does that change? 00:44:47.660 --> 00:44:47.980 Yeah. 00:44:49.059 --> 00:44:54.079 You know, you enter into a new relationship that doesn't, like, don't cease being human by being married. 00:44:54.200 --> 00:44:55.099 Yeah, yeah, that's good. 00:44:55.200 --> 00:44:56.380 You don't become like, boom. 00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:56.780 Yes. 00:44:57.380 --> 00:44:57.700 Yes. 00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:58.820 Yeah. 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:00.700 And Paul says that's a great mystery. 00:45:00.820 --> 00:45:03.740 He says the unity in marriage is a great mystery. 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:07.220 But, yeah, that's a good analogy. 00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:10.500 Well, let me, yes, Richard. 00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:30.500 So, it seems to me the definition of Chalcedon really just adopts the Apollinarian position with some adjustment in terminology. 00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:32.780 Oh, can you explain a little more what you mean? 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:42.580 So, if you ask Apollinarians, is Jesus Christ one person or two persons? 00:45:42.820 --> 00:45:44.640 Well, he would say one person. 00:45:45.500 --> 00:45:50.840 And if you ask him, is that one person divine or human? 00:45:51.260 --> 00:45:53.300 Well, he would say, well, divine. 00:45:53.680 --> 00:45:54.720 The divine logos. 00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:05.359 So, this definition says that Jesus Christ is one person. 00:46:05.939 --> 00:46:12.379 So, if you ask the Chalcedonian, is that person divine or human, what would they say? 00:46:13.419 --> 00:46:14.939 Wouldn't they say both, though? 00:46:15.839 --> 00:46:16.339 Both? 00:46:17.619 --> 00:46:20.039 Both human and divine? 00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.440 Yeah. 00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:22.139 I mean, isn't that? 00:46:22.219 --> 00:46:27.320 Because it says that he is acknowledged in two natures. 00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:30.980 But we're not talking about the natures yet. 00:46:31.659 --> 00:46:33.239 Well, isn't that what human and divine is? 00:46:33.259 --> 00:46:34.139 Human nature, divine nature. 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:38.500 Yes, but I've been talking all this time about the person of Christ. 00:46:40.259 --> 00:46:41.320 But isn't that the... 00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:42.619 Okay, so, it depends. 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:45.300 Are you talking about pre-incarnation or post-incarnation? 00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:47.759 Because pre-incarnation, there is no humanity. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.080 He's just divine. 00:46:50.580 --> 00:46:57.760 But then with the incarnation, divinity, the nature of divinity is welcomed into the person and hypostasis of Christ. 00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:01.180 He now has two natures instead of just one. 00:47:02.140 --> 00:47:05.060 Yes, but who has those two natures? 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.160 It's the divine person, right? 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:21.480 So, that line of argument, yes, that line of argument often, not always, but often comes from the Oriental Orthodox, who are the Maya physites, where they would say... 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:25.119 So, I'd say Apollinarius anticipated them, didn't he? 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:27.819 Yeah, I think in some ways you could say that, yeah. 00:47:28.099 --> 00:47:30.599 But I think Chalcedon is against Apollinarius. 00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:33.539 Although, keeping in mind, when I say... 00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:36.679 Although, I don't think Apollinarius was right when he was talking about the mind of Jesus. 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.440 But the whole one nature versus two nature thing... 00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:48.900 Like, the Maya physites, the way they express it when they say, well, Jesus has one nature, but that nature is divine and it has this subnature. 00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:53.460 I don't think that's, like, hugely problematic in and of itself. 00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:59.179 I think it's confusing when you're walking around telling people he's one nature, because it seems to suggest he's not human. 00:47:59.460 --> 00:48:05.240 But when they go and explain it, okay, that's fine if you want to say it that way. 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:09.579 But I don't think it's the clearest way to explain the natures of Jesus. 00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:10.819 I think this is clearer. 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:12.599 But... 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.359 So, it depends on... 00:48:15.359 --> 00:48:18.019 Yeah, I mean, the divine son has a human nature. 00:48:20.359 --> 00:48:21.539 This is very big. 00:48:21.579 --> 00:48:22.979 You should read Cyril of Alexandria. 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:25.239 He talks exactly... 00:48:25.859 --> 00:48:31.759 The arguments that you're articulating is similar to what he articulates, where he's saying, no, it's the divine son. 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:38.400 We're not going to reposition the divine son for all eternity. 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:41.300 We're going to say he's always the divine son. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:42.240 He's remained the divine son. 00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:44.500 We're going to refer him first and foremost as divine son. 00:48:44.680 --> 00:48:49.760 And then humanity is part of this, but it's a sub-conversation rather than... 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:51.760 But let me... 00:48:52.520 --> 00:48:55.240 I want to read, actually, something that gets at this. 00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:56.620 But, yes, did you want to say something? 00:48:56.619 --> 00:49:02.420 One of the things that can be helpful is think, okay, is there something... 00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:04.420 You know, all this care about... 00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:05.679 Oh, can't say this when you say that. 00:49:05.759 --> 00:49:06.339 You need to preserve it. 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.420 Is there something behind this that influences this? 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:21.119 And one of the things for Cyril of Alexandria was, look, for salvation, it is absolutely critical that he is God. 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.339 Whereas, so, you know, it's happening. 00:49:24.759 --> 00:49:26.339 That's what's the decisive thing. 00:49:27.139 --> 00:49:33.119 Whereas, arguably, it seems in some of their writings, for some of the historians... 00:49:33.940 --> 00:49:45.099 And maybe more, Deodora, a little earlier, there's a strain where, oh, the critical thing in salvation is acting in the integrity of a human person in this sort of achievement. 00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:45.739 Hmm. 00:49:46.259 --> 00:49:49.099 So there's this subtle... 00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:51.579 You know, why are these things important? 00:49:51.759 --> 00:49:53.500 It's because how they can prove salvation. 00:49:54.319 --> 00:50:01.980 And I think one of the critical things that Cyril would say is, look, if he is not God who is working on salvation, there is no salvation. 00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.079 And really wanting to verse out that. 00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:09.519 So that's what gives a lot of energy to these distinctions. 00:50:09.860 --> 00:50:12.420 Just a little bit of a thought, but I'll be able to... 00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:18.180 Well, let's, for the sake of time, let's go on to look at how these disputes have played out. 00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:22.340 And I talked about how churches separated, et cetera, et cetera. 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:27.460 So in the 1970s, so there's all these churches here. 00:50:27.579 --> 00:50:29.099 You've got Church of the East, all these churches. 00:50:29.220 --> 00:50:33.680 Then you have the Greek and Latin Church, which at this point are united, but they eventually split in the Great Schism. 00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:37.039 And the Greeks and the Russians come off and become the Eastern Orthodox. 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:41.820 But these guys all still exist with the exception of those folks, arguably. 00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:43.139 These guys still exist. 00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:47.300 Well, in the 1970s, we've been talking about terminology, right? 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:55.420 So in the 1970s, there was this movement for the Roman Catholics and some of these folks to have theological dialogues. 00:50:55.420 --> 00:50:59.720 And they issued a statement, and this was issued. 00:51:00.099 --> 00:51:03.740 It was called the Declaration of Faith in June 1984. 00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:06.059 So it started in the 70s, went on. 00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:14.539 And this was between Pope Shenouda, Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Egyptian one, Pope Paul VI, the Roman Catholic Pope, 00:51:14.539 --> 00:51:24.800 the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius Jacob III, and same guy, Pope Paul VI, and Patriarch Ignatius Zaka I and Pope John Paul II, 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.119 because it's going on for so many years. 00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:27.320 People are dying and being replaced. 00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:29.199 And they say this. 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:36.840 We confess the faith of the two churches formulated by the Nicene Council of 325. 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:44.940 The confusions and schisms that occurred between their churches in the later centuries they realize today in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith. 00:51:45.539 --> 00:51:55.440 Since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formula adopted by different theological schools to express the same matter, 00:51:55.579 --> 00:52:04.400 accordingly, we find today no real basis for the sad divisions and schisms that subsequently arose between us concerning the doctrine of the Incarnation. 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:13.639 Then, later in that same year, this is a different thing, but this is 1994, two significant events took place. 00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:22.000 The more dramatic and important of the two is the Common Declaration of Faith, issued November 11th, by Patriarch Mark Dinka IV and Pope John Paul II. 00:52:22.300 --> 00:52:23.940 The key passage read like this. 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:26.639 So we're skipping down. 00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:34.799 And it says that the humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. 00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:43.359 This is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East, the Persian Church, is praying the Virgin Mary as the Mother of Christ, our God and Savior. 00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:48.639 So the Persian Church prefers to use the term Mother of Christ, not Mother of God. 00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:51.339 So they say the Mother of Christ. 00:52:51.340 --> 00:52:58.140 In light of this same faith, the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as Mother of God and also as the Mother of Christ. 00:52:58.340 --> 00:53:02.760 We both recognize the legitimacy and brightness of these expressions of the same faith, 00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:06.980 and we both respect the preference of each church in her liturgical life and piety. 00:53:09.180 --> 00:53:13.960 Then, Bar Hebraeus. 00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:18.699 So Bar Hebraeus is, let me tell you about him before I put his quote on. 00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:24.340 Bar Hebraeus is like the loom, the shining light of the Syriac Orthodox Church. 00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:26.980 He's one of the great polymaths. 00:53:27.019 --> 00:53:29.260 He was, you know, a mathematician, a theologian. 00:53:29.659 --> 00:53:35.119 He was a very, very powerful bishop, influential bishop. 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:39.119 He was part of the Syriac Church, but he lived in Persia. 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:42.139 So he was kind of Persian, but not part of the Persian Church. 00:53:42.139 --> 00:53:43.480 He was part of the Syriac Orthodox Church. 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:46.099 And he says this. 00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.679 So he's writing in like 1280. 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.559 When I had given much thought and pondered on the matter, 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:56.639 I became convinced that these quarrels among the different Christian churches are not a matter of factual substance, 00:53:56.900 --> 00:53:58.780 but of words and terminology. 00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:02.679 For they all confess Christ our Lord to be perfect God and perfect human 00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:05.720 without any commingling, mixing, or confusion of the natures. 00:54:06.220 --> 00:54:09.659 Thus I saw all the Christian communities with their different Christological positions 00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:14.379 as possessing a single common ground that is without any difference between them. 00:54:15.019 --> 00:54:16.159 I like how he puts that. 00:54:16.259 --> 00:54:19.539 Because when you say, well, do you all believe Jesus is perfectly God and perfectly human? 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:20.339 Yes! 00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:26.359 Do you all believe that these natures are not, you know, mixed or changed or confused? 00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:27.059 Yes! 00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:29.579 Well then, okay. 00:54:29.860 --> 00:54:30.799 Isn't that enough? 00:54:31.179 --> 00:54:31.880 What's the problem? 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:33.219 Yeah, well, what's the problem then? 00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:37.880 So in some ways, Chalcedon caused enormous schism in the church. 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:43.039 But in another sense, it rightly expressed our faith, 00:54:43.160 --> 00:54:48.039 that there's two natures in one person in the Lord Jesus Christ. 00:54:49.700 --> 00:54:50.240 Amen. 00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:52.740 All right. 00:54:52.780 --> 00:54:54.180 We've got just a couple minutes left. 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:55.860 So time for one quick question. 00:54:55.980 --> 00:54:57.860 Anybody before we close in prayer? 00:54:58.220 --> 00:54:59.340 Maybe I can talk afterwards. 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:00.160 Peter. 00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:01.159 Yes. 00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:16.259 That's the translators doing that. 00:55:16.359 --> 00:55:16.960 It's a title. 00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:21.119 But it's probably appropriate because they mean it with capitalization. 00:55:21.259 --> 00:55:24.159 They want it to be this formal title rather than... 00:55:24.839 --> 00:55:27.159 When we would say Mother of Christ, we probably... 00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:29.539 I don't know if we would capitalize it or not. 00:55:29.539 --> 00:55:30.659 I don't know if it depends on the context. 00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:31.980 It's a title. 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:32.880 Yeah. 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:34.119 I guess you would, yeah. 00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:35.559 Well, let's pray. 00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:37.460 Father in heaven, we thank you for this. 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.460 We pray for unity amongst our brethren, 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:42.199 that we would be united with our fellow gospel preaching churches, 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.300 and that we would also teach your truth, Lord. 00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.779 We pray you to bless us as we worship you downstairs in just a moment. 00:55:50.139 --> 00:55:53.739 We ask this in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 00:55:54.380 --> 00:55:54.599 Amen. 00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:54.679 Amen. 00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:55.319 Amen. 00:55:58.919 --> 00:56:01.699 Oh, yes. 00:56:02.099 --> 00:56:02.440 Yeah. 00:56:02.579 --> 00:56:03.559 One more. 00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:04.460 One more next week. 00:56:04.460 --> 00:56:12.059 well i 00:56:12.059 --> 00:56:26.960 so and and kind of the sad thing is they're still not united they have that shared declaration of 00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:30.099 faith but they're still just not you know 00:56:30.099 --> 00:56:38.780 yeah 00:56:38.780 --> 00:56:41.960 so those can be strong 00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:45.539 they can and it was politics