WEBVTT 00:00:00.860 --> 00:00:03.379 It's really great to have Ian and Joan with us. 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:05.740 I'm going to ask Ian to come to the front and interview him a little bit. 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:08.519 But we want to thank you, Joan, for coming up. 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:14.019 Ian, come on up and we'll interview you and chat a little bit before we pray. 00:00:15.860 --> 00:00:17.219 It's great to have you with us. 00:00:19.059 --> 00:00:20.400 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:22.359 That should work, shouldn't it? 00:00:23.780 --> 00:00:24.140 Good. 00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:27.940 And what have you been doing since we last saw you? 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:29.879 Was it 19 months ago, 18 months ago? 00:00:30.899 --> 00:00:32.280 Oh, this and that. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:34.219 Bits and pieces. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.920 I've been teaching a little online, preaching most Sundays. 00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:40.780 Writing a little. 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:46.760 Going to every coffee house near and far with Joan, 00:00:47.060 --> 00:00:51.019 which is one of the delights of not having the care of a congregation. 00:00:51.740 --> 00:00:55.379 So I've been kept, in God's kindness, very, very busy. 00:00:55.379 --> 00:00:55.700 Yeah. 00:00:55.700 --> 00:01:01.560 People are always asking me, what are the lessons of lockdown? 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.500 What has the church learned? 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.579 And I don't really know. 00:01:09.340 --> 00:01:11.460 And so you're older and wiser, just. 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:17.439 And what would you say the lessons that the church had learned over the past 18 months, 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:18.719 having faced the pandemic? 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:27.539 Well, I don't know who has known the mind of the Lord. 00:01:29.620 --> 00:01:36.659 I'm not sure we know as yet what we have been intended to learn. 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:44.840 I tend to think that the Lord and his sovereign, wise, merciful, gracious purpose 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:49.459 has ordained this unsettling time to humble the church, 00:01:50.060 --> 00:01:58.400 to remind us to not put our trust in princes, however great and godly they may be. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:08.219 I think these days will make the church a little leaner, but perhaps in God's kindness a little purer. 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:20.120 Above all, I think that these times are a reminder to us that the Lord God omnipotent reigns, 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:29.420 that our great need as a church and as the universal church is to be humbled before God 00:02:29.420 --> 00:02:42.159 and to realize that the wisdom of God's word is transgenerational. 00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:46.879 We will give ourselves to prayer and the ministry of the word. 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:49.639 Now, that takes many forms. 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:57.900 And I don't mean we shouldn't be thoughtful and have plans and outreaches and missions. 00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.099 I don't mean that at all. 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:08.560 But that we need to remember that what God has placed at the very heart of the life of his church 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.759 is what he is most pleased to bless. 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:19.340 And when we give ourselves to those core, vital realities of prayer and the ministry of the word. 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:27.219 And I've often wondered, is there significance that prayer comes before the ministry of the word? 00:03:27.259 --> 00:03:32.680 If you read the first four chapters of Acts, again and again and again and again, 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:38.040 I think five or six times, look placards the centrality of prayer. 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:46.460 Corporate, congregational, and I think non-sabbatarian prayer at the heart of the church's life. 00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:49.960 So, if anything, I hope we might learn. 00:03:50.540 --> 00:03:52.100 Don't put your trust in princes. 00:03:52.099 --> 00:03:55.180 Recalibrate your life. 00:03:56.180 --> 00:03:58.099 Remember that the Lord reigns. 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:07.740 And let us express that conviction in prayer and in the transgenerational proclamation of God's word. 00:04:08.519 --> 00:04:09.079 That's a great answer. 00:04:09.799 --> 00:04:14.959 If I was, if somebody was going to, I thought we had a heckler, but it's just one of my eldest phones. 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:15.599 That's all right. 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:21.100 And if we were going to, people are going to talk about recalibrating their life. 00:04:21.980 --> 00:04:27.860 Expand a little bit on that, on what advice you would give in recalibrating someone's life. 00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:31.879 I try never to give advice. 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:37.439 That might seem a little odd for someone who's been a pastor for 41 years. 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:45.860 I say to people what every day I think I say to myself. 00:04:50.819 --> 00:04:58.560 Ian, never forget what you were and what by God's grace you now are. 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:07.420 And that might seem very basic and very simple, but I think we can so easily forget that we were without hope and without God. 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:11.319 We were children of God's wrath like the rest of mankind. 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.959 We were on a broad road that would lead us to everlasting destruction. 00:05:17.019 --> 00:05:21.139 We were sunk in utter ignorance. 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:25.439 But now by God's grace, we are united to his Son. 00:05:25.699 --> 00:05:28.439 We are heirs together with him of the glory of God. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.680 We can call the everlasting God our Father. 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:43.759 And I know for me, my great need is to ask the Lord to help me never to allow those truths to become commonplace. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:55.819 But that every day I might rise with a fresh sense of the utter wonder that I am what I am by the grace of God. 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:59.199 I don't think the Christian life is rocket science. 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:00.839 I really don't. 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:04.060 I don't mean it's easy. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:05.480 It can be demanding. 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:09.199 It can be costly beyond anything I've ever known. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:16.379 But the Christian life is living before God. 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:26.939 I love the little phrase, koram deo, before the face of God, marveling that he is your God and the God of your children. 00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:38.279 So, recalibration is about just allowing the foundational truths of the gospel to reshape our lives every day. 00:06:39.019 --> 00:06:43.779 And never take for granted that you're in a faithful gospel church. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:50.220 Better churches in this have died because people have drifted. 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:53.500 Think of Revelation 2, 1 through 7. 00:06:53.500 --> 00:07:01.079 Better churches in this have died because they've drifted from their first love. 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:02.540 That's very odd. 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:09.800 You kind of stepped back from being a pastor to moving to kind of theological education. 00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:13.300 But you were 40 odd years, isn't it, as a church minister? 00:07:13.699 --> 00:07:14.180 I'm not that. 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:14.839 37. 00:07:15.019 --> 00:07:15.420 37. 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.000 Don't make me older than I am or I feel. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:23.759 So, as you look back over that period of time, without the danger of kind of nostalgia, 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.740 what are some of the weaknesses that you see amongst churches? 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:32.899 Because you did travel quite a lot and you've got quite a wide circle. 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:37.379 What would be some of the areas where you think we as today's church, 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:40.220 we just need to be aware that that might be a weakness? 00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:42.580 Oh, dear. 00:07:46.580 --> 00:07:50.360 I think, and again, I can only speak for myself. 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:53.500 I start with myself. 00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:57.600 When I'm preaching, I preach to myself before I preach to anyone else. 00:07:57.620 --> 00:08:01.640 Because I know that I need to hear what God's word is to say more than anyone else. 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:07.300 I think in our circles, our tradition, the Reformed evangelical tradition, 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:17.180 the biggest danger is that we slowly but surely become like the Pharisee in Luke 18. 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.079 I thank you, Lord, that I'm not like other men. 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.279 We become complacent. 00:08:22.539 --> 00:08:26.060 We think ourselves to be something when we're not. 00:08:26.339 --> 00:08:28.159 We compare ourselves to others. 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.840 You know, Oscar Wilde didn't get much right, but comparisons are odious. 00:08:34.420 --> 00:08:39.980 I think there's a tremendous danger within the Reformed tradition if you look at history, 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:47.220 that slowly but surely we think ourselves a cut above the rest and we forget. 00:08:48.300 --> 00:08:50.399 We are what we are by the grace of God. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.279 What do we have that we did not receive? 00:08:52.279 --> 00:09:07.120 And the inexorable, insidious influence of spiritual Reformed complacency just kills a church. 00:09:08.259 --> 00:09:09.639 It kills a church. 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:16.340 So, that's been my struggle over the years. 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:23.759 To remind myself every day that I might be a fully paid up member of the Westminster Confession Club, 00:09:23.899 --> 00:09:25.100 and I suppose I am. 00:09:25.100 --> 00:09:37.960 But my Christian life is to, first and foremost, front and center, be on the Lord Jesus, His cross. 00:09:38.060 --> 00:09:46.120 And so, when I come across anyone who's from anywhere, and the Savior is their only hope, 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:53.700 then increasingly I'm disinclined to ask them at any time, are you Reformed? 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:58.320 I just want to say, are you loving the Savior? 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:05.240 And that's where our fundamental identity lies. 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:15.000 Now, I can say that because I'm a passionate, covenantal, Presbyterian, Calvinist to the core of my being. 00:10:15.940 --> 00:10:22.259 But when I read John Calvin, especially, I read Gospel Catholicity. 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.840 So, the danger of thinking ourselves to be better than we are, more than we are, 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.320 is something we need to be on guard against. 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:30.759 Thank you very much. 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:31.700 That's very helpful. 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:32.299 Good.