Before we start, let me just say on behalf of us all to thank Ciarán very, very much
for a very informative presentation of assisted suicide and euthanasia.
I think it's helped us all appreciate and understand the dangers, the warnings that are there.
And as I was listening, it just struck me this is a legal holocaust to some extent,
what is being presented and what is happening in Holland and essentially what will come down the tracks here.
I do have a couple of questions here, which I can start with.
And if there are other questions from the floor, you want to come back on anything that is said, please do.
So the first one is, what can we learn from the Christians in Holland
and how they have faced the whole legislation process, how they face the ongoing issue today
and what can we learn from the Christian church?
Well, interesting question. Thanks for that.
Let me come at it from this angle.
Hope Ireland, I mentioned them earlier, but I didn't say a whole lot about them.
I mentioned that they had their inaugural conference at the RDS last June.
And I think they're a very new organisation, like they were founded in 2014 by Dr. Kevin Fitzpatrick,
who was a paraplegic since 1973 and he died in January of this year.
I'm getting to the answer with this now.
But Hope Ireland, they're an independent disability-led single-focus organisation.
They are affiliated to the Youth in Asia Prevention Coalition International.
And at their conference, they invited people from the Netherlands, from Belgium, from Luxembourg,
from the USA to speak about their experiences in relation to trying to oppose these things.
What we can learn from the Christians, there's a very negative lesson to be learned from Dutch Christians.
The Dutch, many churches in Holland, you can't say certain things at all.
Like, you'll never hear a sermon in most churches ever about sexual morality.
Because they've gone past all that now.
And a lot of the churches are liberal.
Even churches that we think are conservative evangelical churches.
There are Reformed churches in the Netherlands.
But mostly Dutch Christians are allergic to Reformed theology.
because of their historical experience of it.
Whatever that might be.
So, we have to learn that in our churches,
we need to continue to address ethical and moral issues.
The leaders of the churches, those entrusted with responsibility to preach and teach,
must hold it before the people.
Not all the time.
You know, we don't want to be, like, we don't want kind of anti-homosexual sermons,
you know, that are homophobic.
And we don't want to be known for just that.
But we don't want to exclude it.
You can't really speak about euthanasia in Holland now.
Many Christians accept it.
Because it's part of their normal lives.
And has been for a long time.
Going back to the early 1990s, late 1980s.
So, some people have grown up with that.
So, what we need to do is we need to educate people.
There was a lecture given in a Canadian university by some people who oppose euthanasia.
Before the lecture, they polled the people attending the lecture.
And the majority were in favour of euthanasia.
After the lecture, they polled them again.
And found that now a majority were not in favour.
They were influenced by what they heard.
When the option of palliative care was presented to them,
when the reality of where this kind of choice leads was presented to them,
they changed their minds.
And I think there is an opportunity to influence us as Christians
to help people around us in conversations,
wherever it might be, in the workplace,
in the college,
to influence people to understand
that this is actually very bad for society
and very bad for them.
And I think that's a good starting place for us as Christians.
Thank you.
Another question.
I guess it's driven from a liberal agenda.
Is there any economical benefit for those who practice assisted suicide
in terms of costs and things like that?
Is that an area that...
It's a business.
Yeah.
Death is a business.
And somebody asked me this during the break,
and I was explaining that, say, Dignitas in Zurich, for example,
is a wealthy organisation.
They are now allowed to go into care homes
to administer assisted suicide for elderly patients.
And that's a recent development.
But a lot of people who go from other jurisdictions,
especially to avail of the service and Dignitas,
are elderly people who live alone,
tired of life,
or have been just diagnosed with a terminal illness,
and they're afraid,
and they're afraid of pain,
or afraid of...
And they just feel life is not worth living.
They go...
They will sign over the deeds of their houses to Dignitas
and things like that.
So they do make a lot of money,
and they do charge thousands for this service as well.
So there is a definite economic side to it.
And a lot of the people who have been killed at Dignitas
have been cremated,
and their ashes were dumped in urns in a nearby lake.
And I'm talking now of hundreds and hundreds of urns.
And a nurse who worked for Dignitas reported this.
And the lake was dredged,
and these urns were found.
So that's the kind of death with dignity
that Dignitas are offering,
dumping you in a lake, you know.
I don't know.
I don't know,
but I know that they can avail of the service.
And I just don't know the answer to that question.
Sorry.
Just for those who are elderly and can't hear so well.
The question was,
what happens to those who are teens
and they request assisted suicide,
who's going to pay for that?
Yeah, you answered the question yourself, I think.
I don't really know the answer to that.
But, yeah, it's part of medical care in Holland now.
It's so common, you know,
that it's not hugely expensive.
It's not like, say, Dignitas,
or things like that.
Everything is expensive in Switzerland,
especially the Toblerone.
But,
but,
pardon?
The cheap and deal.
Okay.
Very good.
Thanks for that.
Bear will be down.
For example, now,
a woman in the Netherlands
applied for medical treatment
that was very expensive.
Okay.
Some new medical treatment.
And she was disqualified.
She was told she wasn't eligible to have this,
that it was too expensive.
in the post by letter.
And the letter included a brochure
on assisted suicide.
The same thing happened to a woman in Oregon
who applied for medication,
which was, again,
beyond her means
and to treat her condition.
And she was sent a prescription,
an actual prescription,
for suicide pills.
This is where we're at now.
Who pays for 16-year-olds?
I don't know.
Just don't know the answer to that.
But I do know it's part of medical care,
so-called,
in the Netherlands.
One of the criteria you mentioned,
I think there were nine.
And I certainly want to get the list of them again
if anybody else is afterwards.
But one of them was that
somebody has to be terminally ill
before they are allowed to go through with it.
How do they actually assess
somebody who's terminally ill?
So, like,
if somebody does have cancer,
for example,
they may be told
you've got three months to live.
But equally,
they could say
you have five years to live.
That's right.
So at what level
or what stage?
Yeah.
Well,
initially,
the criteria
was that
you were terminally ill
and you had six months,
approximately six months to live.
But, you know,
diagnosis and prognosis
can be wrong.
And we all know,
I'm sure,
people who have been diagnosed
with a terminal illness
and they have,
they've lived
much longer
than the prognosis.
And we know
other people
who've been told
they've got two years to live
and they live for two weeks.
So you just don't know.
Good question.
But now,
it doesn't matter now anyway.
You don't have to be
even ill,
let alone terminally ill.
And you don't have to have
a prognosis of six months
or anything like that.
Yeah.
Kevin,
please.
Yeah.
Is there any body,
actually a body organisation
that's put in a way
to try to believe
who look like
they're imposing
these regulations?
You're saying
that they're totally ignored
but if we're,
we're not going to know
about this,
we're sure they know
about it too.
And is there any sense
of embarrassment
in their government
or in better professions
and is there any
organisation
that's been put in place
or was meant to be
at least to monitor?
Yeah,
there's an over...
Sorry,
I'll just repeat
the question again.
Is there a body
or an organisation
within Holland
and does the same exist here
to monitor
and make sure
that they are not
going down the route
that they are?
Just Holland
where it's being practised?
Yeah,
there's an oversight committee.
I kind of,
I'm tempted to laugh
at this,
it's so ridiculous,
but there are
an oversight committee
which consists of,
there are kind of
regional oversight committees
that consist of
doctors,
like two doctors
on the committee,
two lawyers
on the committee
and a philosophical expert.
Whatever that means,
you know,
and they're meant
to have some opinion
about the whole issue,
but you're not going
to be appointed
to a committee like that
unless you approve.
Doctors don't,
they don't function,
they don't work,
those oversight committees
don't work.
There have been
some prosecutions,
but those who've been
prosecuted
have got a rap
on the knuckles
and they've been told
they haven't got
sentences
or custodial sentences
or any sentences
and they've been told
just don't do that again.
Lots of doctors
in the Netherlands
don't,
when they're,
it's very bureaucratic,
assisted suicide
and euthanasia
and you have to
fill in forms
and ostensibly
to meet certain criteria,
a lot of doctors
don't bother
filling in the forms
and they put down
the underlying cause
of death
as something else
like pneumonia
or something like that
rather than
assisted suicide.
So even the statistics
that say 5,000 people
last year
were terminated
by euthanasia
and assisted suicide
and that doesn't involve
deep continuous sedation
which is another matter.
even those,
that 5,000
that we know about,
that's much less
than the reality
of what's happening.
Yeah.
Edie there,
please.
Yeah.
Trish.
I was wondering
if you have a
people with
and psychiatric
disorder
and the response
about
how does that happen
to people
to make decisions
to know
how does that happen
or is there
an incentive
to talk to people
who don't want
to be able to
accept
that there
to make decisions?
Yeah.
You don't want to
repeat the question?
No, you don't.
Okay.
So the question there
is what about
those who are
struggling with
a mental illness?
How do they reach
a decision themselves
about requesting
suicide
and how is that
monitored
and is there
anything in place
to assess that?
Well, obviously
for a lot of people
it's other people
who make those
decisions for them.
people
who might have
an elderly parent
who is suffering
from Alzheimer's
their distress
is an issue
that they present
to the doctor
and say
look, he's only
going to live
a short length
of time anyway
can we do
anything about this?
And it's accommodated.
The thing about
the Netherlands
is that
long before
euthanasia
was practiced
or legalized
it was widely
practiced
as I said
the research
was conducted
we don't have
this kind of
research in Ireland
we don't know
how many people
are being killed
or that
you know
what exactly
is going on
the Dutch
tell the truth
at least
you know
when they were
asked
the doctors
were asked
are you killing
people?
They said yes
and we've been
doing this
for 10 years
you know
and we want
it regulated
because we don't
want to be
criminalized
I'm not too
sure that
we would get
the same
kind of
response
in Ireland
but those
decisions
obviously
some people
don't have
the capacity
to make
a decision
and the
decision
is made
for them
it's a
kind of
a personal
sensitive
issue
for me
because
my elder
brother
he died
a couple
of years
ago
now
almost
and
he was
Down
Syndrome
and I
have a
sister
who's
Down
Syndrome
as well
and I
brought up
this Bourbon
biscuit
to tell you
a little
funny story
because
the whole
night
needs a
little bit
of livening
up
and
my mother
never bought
biscuits
at home
we had
an orchard
and she
always baked
apple tarts
and Ruber
tarts
and all of
that
and it
was lovely
and then
one
time
my mother
went to
visit
my aunt
who
oh yeah
my aunt
used to
give us
a tin
of biscuits
USA
biscuits
I think
it was
and they
had
these
Bourbons
you see
and then
one time
in June
my mother
went to
visit
my aunt
and my
aunt
produced
this
plate
of
biscuits
and it
had
and Michael
my brother
he reached
out
and he
picked up
the
Bourbon
biscuit
and he
said
ah
Christmas
and I
never
look at
a Bourbon
biscuit
without
thinking
of
Michael
and
that
story
and
but
you know
Down
syndrome
fetuses
now are
being
aborted
because it
can be
detected
and
so there
are very
few of
them
in the
Netherlands
and
should
one be
born
the
parents
have the
right
to say
you know
this is
too much
suffering
for us
and have
that life
that's
kind of
infanticide
euphemistically
redescribed
as euthanasia
other people
make those
decisions
for them
yeah
Ralph
at the
back
yeah
so
there's
different
countries
like the
Netherlands
different
states
in the
US
other
places
that have
gone
down
the
road
of
euthanasia
are there
any
examples
of
countries
that have
started
down
that
road
but have
pulled
back
very good
question
Ralph
and
to use
a medical
term
it has
been
suggested
that
the
situation
in
Oregon
is having
an
immunological
effect
that
other
states
in
America
are
looking
at
what's
going
on
in
Oregon
and
it's
preventing
them
from
going
down
that
road
because
what has
happened
in
Oregon
is an
unmitigated
disaster
one
woman
who had
a stroke
was
her
daughter
wanted
her to
be
euthanized
and
so
the
doctor
gave
her
valium
and
morphine
in
large
doses
and
when
that
didn't
work
he
used
a
magnet
to
interfere
with
her
pacemaker
and
when
that
didn't
work
he
suffocated
her
so
he
was
given
six
months
a
six
month
suspended
sentence
and
he's
now
practicing
medicine
so
people
are
looking
on
and
it's
preventative
in
that
way
but
there's
an
example
in
Australia
one
of the
states
in
Australia
I
think
it's
Queensland
you can
check
the book
I forget
now
they
introduced
assisted
suicide
and
you know
one of
the
doctor
death
people
Nichike
lobbied
for it
and it
was
introduced
but
they've
changed
the law
they've
gone
back
because
they've
seen
that it
was
just
terrible
what it
was
you
know
so
Australia
is a
good
example
Peter
Tim
yeah
cheers
tes
You
mentioned
I mean, you mentioned go hard on.
Should that be the, should the response of the churches be to encourage local members to go on for a general, generic heading like that and not to use our own names of such?
Or what should we do at the square as well?
Should we push harder than anything?
Even if we could be very nervous on referential worship and things like that.
Yeah, sorry.
So the question there is in regards to the Netherlands response to euthanasia, the church seems to be reluctant in speaking out.
So how is we, how do we as a church here in Ireland respond to that?
Is it better that we together come collectively, the evangelical church underneath an organization like Hope Ireland, is it?
Yeah, underneath Hope Ireland and yeah.
Okay, thanks Peter.
The Care Not Killing group in the UK, they're a broad coalition as well, an alliance.
They have Christians as members, like the Christian Medical Fellowship for example are members.
But they're really a kind of an independent group and they, they're a single focus.
I think it's very, the experience of Care Not Killing is very interesting because they learned over a long period of time that it was better to be a single focus issue group and not to be a group that focuses on abortion,
but it is a group that was better on divides against prohibits, euthanasia and assisted suicide and bioethics, embryonic research.
All that sort of thing.
So, and they also felt that the use of specifically Christian language was unhelpful in kind of winning the public debate, whatever we might think about that.
so I do think a coalition a broad coalition is needed and I do think that specifically
Christian language like sermonic kind of language about the issue might not be the most helpful
way of communicating we can still defend the ethical principles and the morality of this issue
knowing our basis our biblical basis and our motivation but not necessarily to to do that
the Hope Ireland I'm sure you wouldn't be banned if you're able-bodied but I've I've seen pictures
of them a lot of them are in wheelchairs so I'm sure it's it's open to people who are not
they're relatively new you could get involved with an organization like that or somebody should
really develop an association where you know we as evangelical Christians can comment on these
issues you know it's like very often you have fuddy-duddy people brought in on Channel 4 news
you know the case of Tony Tom Lincolnson who had locked-in syndrome it was very sad case and he
died since but Channel 4 has an agenda you know they've had very good agendas now they they
champion the cause of disabled people and but they also promote things like they had Terry Pratchett
in as well and they promote this issue you know of assisted suicide in euthanasia and they and
Tony Tom Lincolnson was used in that way a kind of a real worst-case scenario and they had some
fuddy-duddy vicar in to talk about it and they never seem to want to get somebody you know equally matched
in you know to kind of give the opposite view there is a media bias that we have to deal with you need to
be media savvy some people I forget the former Archbishop of Canterbury's name Carey the first
name can't won't come to me I won't call him Lord especially not today today is the anniversary of
the 2000 of the 1916 rising so we couldn't call him Lord Carey but I'm tempted to say William but he's
changed his mind he opposed vigorously he in the House of Lords he spoke and he opposed um euthanasia
and assisted suicide but he's changed his mind now and you have that kind of equivocation coming
from certain quarters which is very unhelpful yeah well it it seems to me that while there are others
like Hope Ireland who are speaking out that as a church we can't afford not to speak out um
ourselves individually and as churches together and I'm not sure if there's another question
here's just one more and how can we convince a non-believer about the sanctity of life
yeah um the secular world view has taken root hasn't it it's taken hold and we're definitely facing an
uphill battle but it's the work of God and uh the Holy Spirit can prevail and we're called to be
faithful in uh proclaiming the truth and communicating the truth to not necessarily through proclamation but
through conversation and through the way we live and uh but you know if it's about building relationships
it's about seizing the opportunities that we have to talk about the Lord and to share you know um
something about the value of life I think a lot of people are looking for community belonging hope
you know it's a bleak world out there without Jesus
um last one Graham thank you
is there a connection between abortion and euthanasia so where countries have legalized
abortion does it then follow that euthanasia is legalized um
abortion has been legal in the UK since 1966 it's a again a very good question because
the criteria for introducing abortion was again very strict it was meant to be a kind of a therapeutic
um intervention uh you know to save the life of the mother and that a side effect could be abortion
uh but now you know people have driven a coach and six horses through that legislation and um what you
have now is abortion on demand a form of post-sex contraception whatever the small print might say
that's the reality and you can look back then to abortion and you can look at the strict criteria
and how that event again was diluted and diluted down and and it has become now just
a casual thing and most abortions are not performed for medical reasons they're performed for social reasons
i'm going to just hold the question time there and formally bring the evening to a conclusion
and please do talk to kieran if you've got more questions do have a look at his book
um at a good offer tonight for 10 euro and again on behalf of us all just to thank kieran very much for
helping us in our thinking and begin the process of preparing ourselves for what is coming and
certainly for all the knowledge and um yeah just your discernment kieran tonight uh certainly thank you
so much indeed there's also a recording of tonight as well so if you go on to the carrigaline baptist church
carrigalinebaptist.org you'll find a recording um sometime tomorrow or even tonight if ralph gets to
it um so i'm going to close in prayer
um