WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.839 Okay, so we're going to just split it into different sections and sing in between. 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:13.040 And the first question that was sent in was, does the Bible sometimes exaggerate to make 00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:15.679 a point? 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:17.920 So that was one of the first questions we got. 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:18.920 There you go. 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:21.839 Does the Bible sometimes exaggerate to make a point? 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:23.440 And Thomas is going to answer this. 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:25.839 It's great having us as the minister. 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:28.400 All the difficult questions I just gave to Thomas. 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:33.759 Okay, so the person who asked this question sent in a verse as an example. 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:36.560 So they asked, does the Bible exaggerate to make a point? 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:41.479 And they put in this verse, verse nine of Second Chronicles. 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:42.920 So this was to give an example of what they mean. 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.200 So, but I'll read the first few verses so we know the context. 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:49.079 Solomon went up there to the bronze altar before the Lord, which was at the tent of 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.599 meeting and offered a thousand burnt offerings on it. 00:00:51.599 --> 00:00:55.519 And that night God appeared to Solomon and said to him, ask what I shall give you. 00:00:55.519 --> 00:00:58.359 And Solomon said to God, you've shown great and said fast love. 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.280 To David, my father, and have made me king in his place. 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:03.280 And this is the key verse. 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.879 Oh Lord God, let your word to David, my father, be now fulfilled, for you have made me king 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:12.079 over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth. 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:16.760 And it was that final phrase that came in as the example, basically to say, is that kind 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:20.680 of language an exaggeration? 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:23.000 This kind of thing is quite common in the Bible. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:24.599 It's per fish in the Old Testament. 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:32.959 Another big example is Genesis 15, where Abraham kind of has this moment of doubt or uncertainty 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.439 and God comes to him and he takes him outside. 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.199 As you can see at the bottom in verse five and he says, look towards heaven, number the 00:01:38.199 --> 00:01:40.399 stars if you're able to number them. 00:01:40.399 --> 00:01:43.439 Then he said to them, so shall your offspring be. 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:49.519 And he believed the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness. 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:54.079 So when that kind of language as many as the stars in heaven or as many as the sand on 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:55.079 the shore. 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:56.560 How are we to understand that? 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:57.560 Is that exaggeration? 00:01:57.560 --> 00:01:58.560 What's been used? 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.679 Well, this brings us to the wonderful world of what we call hermeneutics. 00:02:02.679 --> 00:02:06.000 It's a cool word to know. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:13.319 By hermeneutics what we mean is like the way in which we interpret the Bible. 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.240 So you might look at a passage and you have to think, how am I going to interpret that? 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.560 So a great example is Jesus says, I am the door. 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:27.560 So does that mean that he's made of wood and has hinges attached to him? 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:28.560 It doesn't. 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:34.240 So we have to think, well, how do we interpret what Jesus is saying or what the Bible is 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:35.240 saying? 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:39.920 The whole point is that all of this is imagery and we have to think about how imagery is 00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:40.920 to be understood. 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:41.920 We do this all the time. 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:47.319 So right now with the coronavirus, we would say that the whole country is up in the air. 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:52.199 So do we mean that it's kind of elevated to 4,000 feet? 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:58.079 Do we mean that we don't mean that we mean that things are kind of all out of normal? 00:02:58.079 --> 00:02:59.599 And then we say the whole country is up in the air. 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:01.840 It's like, well, do we mean everything? 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:03.759 So has our water supply stopped? 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:05.479 Has our electricity supply stopped? 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:07.240 Have traffic lights stopped working? 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:09.079 Are roads cumbling? 00:03:09.079 --> 00:03:10.079 We don't mean anything like that. 00:03:10.079 --> 00:03:14.479 So when we say the whole country is up in the air, we know exactly what we mean, but 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.159 we don't take these things literally because we're just using a phrase to make an effect. 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:20.879 And the Bible does that as well. 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:23.439 All literature does that. 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.239 And the key point is we're talking about imagery. 00:03:26.239 --> 00:03:32.439 So in that image there, you've made me king over people as numerous as the dust of the 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:33.439 earth. 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:38.879 And this is an example of figures of speech that you'll all remember from high school 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:39.879 English. 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.159 The two main ones we have in the Bible are simile and metaphor. 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:48.400 Mile is what we have in this verse where you say something is like something or as something. 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.800 Metaphor is when you don't bother with a word like or as. 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:54.359 It's incredibly powerful. 00:03:54.359 --> 00:03:59.240 Here's Psalm 22. 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.199 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, there's none to help me. 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.120 So it's an expression of distress. 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.960 And then you have this incredibly vivid imagery. 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.800 Many bulls encompass me. 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:11.560 Strong bulls of patients around me. 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.280 They open wide their mouths at me like a ravening and roaring lion. 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:19.560 Now that's referring to people, to people who are opposing him. 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:21.360 And poured out like water. 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:22.720 All my bones are out of joint. 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:24.480 Now there's another example. 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.120 In your ear you have three tiny bones, the hammer, anvil and stirrup. 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:33.879 I don't think that they were dislocated in the Samus experience. 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.160 So it's not every single bone of the body being out of joint. 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:41.800 It's an expression of extensive pain and discomfort. 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:44.800 And I only have five minutes, so I better not go through it all. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:51.480 But incredibly vivid language presented in the Psalms. 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:56.879 Sometimes that kind of imagery can express things in a way that's extraordinarily powerful. 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.840 So if we go back to chronicles, you go to the very end of chronicles. 00:04:59.840 --> 00:05:04.960 This is the last chapter which describes the fall of Jerusalem. 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.479 And this is what we have it described in just narrative. 00:05:09.479 --> 00:05:14.120 Nebuchadnezzar comes, killed the young men with the sword in the house of the sanctuary 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.839 and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or aged. 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.639 He gave them into his hand all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:24.839 the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king and his princes, 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:26.560 all these he brought to Babylon. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.240 They burned the house of the Lord and broke down the wall of Jerusalem and burned all 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.240 its palaces with fire and destroyed its precious vessels. 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.960 And that's just narrative describing it. 00:05:34.960 --> 00:05:41.800 In lamentations, you have exactly the same event described, but with imagery. 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.319 And just listen to how it describes it and just think about the effect this language 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.519 has. 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:54.639 How the gold has grown dim, how the pure gold has changed, the holy stones slice scattered 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.319 at the head of every street, the precious sons of Zion, worth their weight in fine gold, 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.439 how they are regarded as earthen pots, the work of a potter's hands. 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:08.159 Even jackals offer the breast, they nourish their young, but the daughter of my people 00:06:08.159 --> 00:06:12.399 has become cruel like the ostriches in the wilderness. 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:17.360 The tongue of the nourishing infant sticks to the roof of its mouth for thirst. 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.680 The children beg for food, but no one gives to them. 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:24.159 Those who once feasted on delicacies perished in the street, those who were brought up in 00:06:24.159 --> 00:06:29.199 purple embrace ash heaps, for the chastisement of the daughter of my people has been great 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:35.039 than the punishment of Sodom, who was overthrown in their moment, and no hands were wrung for 00:06:35.039 --> 00:06:36.039 her. 00:06:36.039 --> 00:06:39.839 Her princes were purer than snow, whiter than milk, their bodies were more ruddy than coral, 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:41.519 the beauty of their form like sapphire. 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.319 Now their face is blacker than suit. 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.919 They're not recognized in the streets, their skin has shriveled on their bones, it's become 00:06:48.919 --> 00:06:51.599 as dry as wood. 00:06:51.599 --> 00:06:56.719 Happier were the victims of the sword than the victims of hunger, who wasted away, pierced 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:00.840 by lack of the fruits of the field. 00:07:00.840 --> 00:07:08.360 It's incredibly powerful the imagery that's used, and it says a whole lot more than just 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:10.000 the city was burnt down. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:16.000 And that's why the Bible uses that kind of imagery. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:19.000 So it's important for us to remember that when we're reading the Bible, that when we 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.800 see things it's not actually exaggeration, it's imagery. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.320 And that applies in lots of ways. 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.839 Psalm 23 is a much more positive example. 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:28.839 We lie down in green pastures. 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.079 It doesn't mean that as a Christian you have to go and find a field and lie down. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.959 It's a picture of peace and tranquility. 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.839 Three things I want you to remember about that. 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.319 First is that you have to let Scripture speak in its own terms. 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.439 So if Scripture is poetry, let it be poetry. 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:50.240 Don't take poetry literally, don't take images literally. 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:52.159 Let it speak in its own terms. 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.439 Just look at the context so that'll help you understand what's been said. 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:57.480 And always remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:01.439 So if you find one but you don't really understand, another part of the Bible will help. 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:06.280 I've got one last thing to say about exaggeration, which I think is the most important thing 00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:07.280 of all. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:11.440 If you look at a passage like this describing the new heavens and the new earth, speaking 00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:16.240 about the promises that God has for His people, the fact that the dwelling place of God will 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.640 be with man, that He'll wipe away every tear from their eyes, death shall be no more, 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.560 neither shall there be mourning or crying or pain anymore. 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.879 The former things have passed away. 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:31.479 You hear all that and you think it's too good to be true. 00:08:31.479 --> 00:08:39.279 But the incredible thing is that there is not a word of exaggeration in that passage. 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:44.360 All there is is understatement. 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.319 And that's part of why God's word is so amazing. 00:08:47.319 --> 00:08:48.799 There we go. 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.919 Great, thanks Thomas. 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:55.559 I was exaggerating when I said that Thomas would only be five minutes. 00:08:55.559 --> 00:09:02.120 But that's fine, because he's much better prepared than I will be for the next question, 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:03.120 worryingly. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:12.279 Okay, question two is, is the coronavirus a judgment from God? 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:22.959 Okay, so I can either say yes and move on or no and move on I guess. 00:09:22.959 --> 00:09:28.079 But I think it's maybe slightly more complex than that. 00:09:28.079 --> 00:09:35.199 I think definitely no, in the sense that it's not a specific judgment from God and a specific 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:46.120 people or nation, in the same way when the people ask Jesus about the tower of Siloam, 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.680 who sinned that caused that? 00:09:48.680 --> 00:09:55.920 Jesus said, don't worry about that, but just you get yourselves right with God. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:05.599 I think at a wider level we need to recognise that it's no more a judgment than God in any 00:10:05.599 --> 00:10:09.439 condition of the flu or any illness. 00:10:09.439 --> 00:10:17.519 It's not a direct judgment for a particular sin, we recognise that. 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:25.480 But what we do recognise is that coronavirus is symptomatic of a broken world, of a world 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:35.120 that is actually soaked in illness and death, from the very beginning. 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:46.200 That is part of God's judgment, it's part of what happens when you turn your back on 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.800 the author of life. 00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:52.399 And that's what humanity has done from the very beginning, humanity turns its back on 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:58.039 the author of life and decides that they want to be sovereign over their own lives without 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.199 God in the picture, right, from the beginning, from Adam and Eve. 00:11:01.199 --> 00:11:06.120 And part of that judgment of God was that you shall surely die. 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:14.519 It wasn't immediate in God's grace, but physical death entered the world then and the physical 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:22.480 death reflects the spiritual death that happened at that time when we were separated from God, 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.639 our Father and God of life. 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:33.720 So we live in a world under, at that level, under God's judgment, under God's curse. 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:43.399 And everything that happens that reflects that is meant to make us think about who we 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.439 are and why we are and why we're here. 00:11:46.439 --> 00:11:52.120 And what Thomas finished with is a great reminder that it's not the way it's always 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.399 going to be. 00:11:55.399 --> 00:12:01.240 And within that, what we recognize and what is quite remarkable is that God, the author 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:08.799 of life and the complexity of His person sends God the Son to death. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:23.079 And that's the astonishing and amazing truth of the gospel is that God, the author of life, 00:12:23.079 --> 00:12:29.959 and the person of His Son is nailed to a tree and dies and dies because it's the only hope 00:12:29.959 --> 00:12:35.919 we have of ourselves receiving life because in death He takes the wrath, He takes the 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:40.279 curse and He offers us His life in return. 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:50.399 So corona judgment isn't a, corona virus, sorry, isn't a judgment from God at a specific level 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:56.799 in terms of being sent specifically to a nation or nations. 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:03.000 It's a natural outworking, as it were, of everything being wrong, of people being wrong, 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:11.279 of society being wrong, of nature being wrong, of everything being wrong. 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:20.480 And therefore it comes under the whole umbrella of a world separated from God and from life. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:27.279 But the answer to all of these things is to look to Jesus Christ for a deeper healing 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:33.240 from the physical virus and the physical illness to see that there's always a deeper healing 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:34.240 we need to remember. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:40.279 Because a lot of people might say, well, as Christians are we going to be protected from 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:41.839 corona virus? 00:13:41.839 --> 00:13:44.879 Well, probably not. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:48.759 And there's probably lots of Christians who have already got it because we're part of 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:50.240 this world. 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:57.639 It's under judgment, but nonetheless, and because we all still die, of course. 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.399 But the sting of death is being removed for us. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:04.879 We still get ill, we still grow old, we still break our bones, we still get knocked down 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:05.879 by cars. 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:10.960 All these things still happen, but there's a bigger, there's a much more important bigger 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:17.240 picture for us that reminds us that all of these things have had the sting removed from 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.919 them and we've got a great future of life in Christ. 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:29.919 So the answer is guarded no, but also yes. 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:30.919 Excellent. 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.360 Should have been a politician. 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.120 I actually agree though. 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:37.120 That is good. 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.120 Very good. 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:40.279 Thomas, will you pray? 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.279 I will pray, yeah, let's pray together. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:55.439 Father, we're so thankful that we can have the opportunity to talk together, to ask questions, 00:14:55.439 --> 00:15:01.159 and to see how amazingly you answer these questions through your word. 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:06.240 We thank you so much for all that you teach us and we pray that we would grow in wisdom 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:11.839 and that our understanding of the world around us and of ourselves would be shaped by the 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:17.000 truth that you reveal in your word. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:21.920 Forgive us for all the times that we think that we know better, for the times we're overconfident 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:25.080 in our own judgment. 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:30.480 Help us instead to always just seek you and for your word to shape the way we think and 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:31.480 behave. 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.879 Thank you so much for everyone here tonight and it's such a blessing to be together, even 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.440 though numbers are smaller than usual. 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:44.800 And we pray that your blessing will be upon everyone here and the people who are watching 00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:49.280 online and the people who are just unable to be here due to all that's going on. 00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:56.360 And I just want to pray for everyone with the uncertainty that lies ahead in the next 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:04.160 few weeks, especially pray for the elderly and those who may be just a little bit more 00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:09.920 physically vulnerable to the effects of the virus. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:16.679 We pray that you would indeed protect them and we pray that the rest of us would be just 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.360 ready to provide help and support and care in every way that we can. 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:28.319 Pray for everyone whose weekly routine is now uncertain with work patterns changing and 00:16:28.319 --> 00:16:32.000 with things uncertain from day to day. 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:38.199 We pray for people for whom this might have a difficult financial effect, for people who 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:44.759 rely on the tourist industry and others, which will be struggling over the next few weeks. 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.360 We pray for everyone affected by that. 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:54.240 And we just ask that in all that across our nation that you would give us all a spirit 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:58.280 of grace and generosity and kindness towards one another. 00:16:58.280 --> 00:17:07.480 And please forgive us as a nation when we show such selfishness in many ways at times 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:09.759 like this. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:15.000 And in all of these things we're reminded of the amazing example of your son, our Savior 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:23.960 Jesus, who willingly gave his own life for our salvation. 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:28.759 Also, I just want to pray for the work of the gospel across our country asking that you 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:34.200 would bless just all those who are seeking to serve you in their local communities. 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.759 We especially want to pray for the church in Ascent and pray that you just help the 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.680 ongoing work and witness of that small congregation there. 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:48.080 And we pray to you for the high free and storm away and ask that you will bless that congregation, 00:17:48.080 --> 00:17:52.960 build them up and guide them and help them especially as they seek to minister to the 00:17:52.960 --> 00:18:00.559 young people there with all the challenges that they face in following you in today's 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.559 world. 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.839 And what we pray for them, we pray for all our congregations that we would raise our 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:10.480 young ones well both in how we teach them and in the example that we set them and that 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:17.279 you would raise up a generation who will love you and serve you and bring the gospel message 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.000 to our people yet unborn. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.639 In Jesus' name we pray. 00:18:21.639 --> 00:18:24.639 Amen. 00:18:24.639 --> 00:18:31.519 Just before I ask a question, Thomas, I was going to say there is a sense that we have 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.200 a bit of an apocalyptic sense just now. 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:43.720 I'm not sure if that's just interpreting the times or if it's just the way we think. 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:50.160 But we do recognise that we believe we live in the last times anyway from Christ's first 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.160 coming to Christ's second. 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:52.160 That's all the last times. 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.400 But there is a sense in which there's last, last times as well. 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:57.639 No one knows the day or the hour. 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:04.560 But we do, certainly, I sense, I feel it a little bit, I wonder, with the environmental 00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:12.880 issues and the plague of locusts, which is devastating crops in Africa. 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:21.360 And now this virus, which can be a portent of many other worldwide viruses that we don't 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:26.240 have control over, and we're reminded that this world isn't going on forever. 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:31.359 And it wouldn't carry on just indefinitely that God is a purpose and a plan and it's 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:35.880 coming to His conclusion in His time, His way. 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:40.519 And I'm sure Christians, and I know Christians all through the centuries have said, well, 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.640 this is the time and this is, we're coming near the apocalypse now. 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:45.920 And I recognise that. 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:52.200 I'm sure people must have thought that in the middle of World War I or World War II. 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:58.840 But nonetheless, I think it's just very wise to be prayerful and remind ourselves who's 00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:07.920 we are and who we serve and that this world is only at its best the first couple of lines 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:13.720 of the opening page of the first chapter of the rest of our lives. 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:19.360 And we need to focus on eternity as Christians. 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:27.279 So the next question, slightly different altogether, is why do we believe in infant baptism? 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:32.599 I was desperate to do this question, but Thomas said that he wanted to answer it. 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:39.359 Well, actually, I don't mind answering this question because I do believe in infant baptism, 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:46.039 but I also want to say that it's kind of one of the, I suppose, I don't know if ironic 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:48.599 is the right word. 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:57.559 I suppose it's maybe sad that baptism is really something that's intended to be a great unifying 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:00.159 thing in the Christian church. 00:21:00.159 --> 00:21:09.039 And yet it's one that keeps us separate because there's different views on it. 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:14.240 I think it's really important to recognise first of all that for those who believe in 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:23.200 infant baptism and for those who believe in believers baptism, we actually are very, very 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:27.559 close to each other in 90% of what we believe. 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.480 And I think I want to emphasise that very much. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.519 We're actually far closer than we realise. 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.120 And yeah, and I think it's really important to remember that. 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:46.679 And I would always want to urge people not to make baptism something that divides because 00:21:46.679 --> 00:21:48.199 it should be something that unites. 00:21:48.199 --> 00:21:53.799 And I'm very conscious that there are people here who would not share my view. 00:21:53.799 --> 00:22:00.639 And in explaining why we believe in infant baptism, I hope that I just give, what I hope 00:22:00.639 --> 00:22:04.919 is just a helpful explanation as to why we believe what we believe. 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:11.480 I'm not really wanting to go on the offensive towards those who don't believe in infant 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:12.480 baptism. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:16.320 I have the utmost respect for your position. 00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:20.960 And I understand why you come to your position. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:32.680 But I'm personally very, very convinced of the infant baptism position. 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:36.200 So that's not... 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.560 So I don't want to be sounding cruel. 00:22:39.560 --> 00:22:42.840 So let's start off with what we agree, right? 00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:46.480 And the top bit there is what we agree, right? 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:52.160 So whatever, whether you're a Baptist, Presbyterian or whatever, we believe that people outside 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.799 the church are to be baptised as believers. 00:22:54.799 --> 00:23:01.600 So somebody who has not heard the Gospel hears about Jesus, they put their faith in 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.879 Jesus, they should be baptised. 00:23:03.879 --> 00:23:10.679 And we in the free church long for the day when we are baptising hundreds of adults, 00:23:10.679 --> 00:23:12.240 we long to see that. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.319 Because we're living in a country that's just full of unbaptised, unchurched people, and 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.199 we long to see them coming in. 00:23:22.199 --> 00:23:24.519 And so we're all on total agreement with that. 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:30.639 We long to see people from outside the church, coming into the church, and really as quickly 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:37.440 as possible, they should be baptised when they come to faith. 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:42.680 Question is, what do we do with people who are born into the church? 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:44.240 And this is where the difference lies. 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:51.880 So we 90% agree on the top part, it's the lower part that the disagreement comes. 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:58.720 And our position would be people born into the church are to be baptised as infants. 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:04.720 The baptised position would be people born into the church are to wait until they come 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.480 to faith and are to be baptised as believers. 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.799 So yeah, that's the two major differences. 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:16.559 Okay, so what does the Bible say? 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.640 Well, the top thing there are tons of examples of. 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.000 People outside the church come into faith and they're baptised. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.839 In the Bible, in the New Testament, people born into the church baptised as infants, 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.680 biblical examples are zero. 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:41.119 Okay, far as we know in terms of like direct specific examples, zero. 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:48.039 People born into the church to be baptised as believers once they've grown up and come 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:53.039 to faith, biblical examples, zero. 00:24:53.039 --> 00:25:05.000 So you baptists who thought you had the Bible on your side. 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.399 And that's the challenge. 00:25:07.399 --> 00:25:12.920 So in our church, we would have, if I have a child, we baptised them as an infant. 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:18.079 If I was in a Baptist church, I had a child, they wouldn't be baptised. 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:23.279 We would wait until they made a profession of faith and then they would be baptised. 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:29.799 There's no biblical examples for either of these scenarios at all. 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:35.279 All we have in the Bible is the top one, the one that we agree on. 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.279 So that leaves us all in a sticky position. 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:40.439 What do we actually, what do we do? 00:25:40.439 --> 00:25:42.359 Who is right? 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:48.559 Well, to answer that, we have to sort of step back a bit more widely and think, you have 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.000 to think about the bigger picture. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.079 If you don't have specific examples to go by, you really need to go by the more, the 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:58.679 broader biblical teaching. 00:25:58.679 --> 00:26:01.679 So I suppose the first thing we have to ask is what is baptism? 00:26:01.679 --> 00:26:07.599 And the simple answer to that is that baptism is a sign and seal of God's covenant promise. 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:08.599 That's the purpose of baptism. 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:13.839 It's an outward sign and seal like the Lord's supper, something that you can see outwardly 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:21.480 that's pointing us towards the blessing that's Irish through God's covenant promise. 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:27.319 So it's the sign and seal of God's covenant promise. 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:33.079 So next question is, when does that covenant begin? 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:39.079 The answer is it begins way, way, way, way, way back with Abraham. 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:49.879 And Abraham is given a sign in which is to symbolize God's covenant promise. 00:26:49.879 --> 00:26:54.879 And that of course was the sign of circumcision. 00:26:54.879 --> 00:27:02.439 Abraham is the definitive model of an Old Testament believer, the one in whom this covenant 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:03.440 of grace begins. 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:04.920 So he's like the model. 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:09.360 That's why the New Testament always refers back to Abraham again and again and again. 00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:10.360 He's a model. 00:27:10.360 --> 00:27:19.720 And so if we want to see the model of faith and sign, we look at Abraham, we would say. 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:27.559 Abraham is an adult circumcision. 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:38.639 So he comes to faith and he is given God's covenant promise and he comes into the church 00:27:38.639 --> 00:27:42.839 from the outside and he is circumcised as an adult. 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.720 He's an adult circumcision. 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.399 So he's the top category. 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:59.560 So we would say, okay, right, in that case Abraham would kind of push towards the adult 00:27:59.560 --> 00:28:00.560 Baptist position. 00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:01.560 He's the model. 00:28:01.560 --> 00:28:04.920 He was an adult, came to faith, circumcised. 00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.720 After he came to faith, that would be the model. 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:09.720 Yes. 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:10.800 Yes. 00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:17.800 But what's the next thing that God tells Abraham to do? 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:24.159 He says, put that sign on your child. 00:28:24.159 --> 00:28:31.519 And from then on, the model in the Old Testament is somebody who comes in from the outside 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:33.519 will be circumcised as an adult. 00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.599 They'll put the sign on as an adult. 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:45.799 But somebody who's born in that community, the sign is put on them at birth. 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:54.399 The infant baptism argument would say that there is a continuation in this pattern because 00:28:54.399 --> 00:28:59.319 circumcision is replaced by baptism in the same way that the Passover is replaced by 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:00.319 the Lord's Supper. 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:06.240 And there is an explicit biblical text to give us that in Colossians 2, Paul links circumcision 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:12.200 with baptism, as you can see in the verse there. 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:16.400 So to kind of sum it all up like this, you've got to have a diagram. 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.799 There's no way of avoiding it. 00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:22.039 So Old Testament, New Testament. 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.080 Sign in the Old Testament is circumcision. 00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:26.559 Sign in the New Testament is baptism. 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:28.480 We say, put the sign on adults. 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.240 Abraham gets the sign. 00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.559 Adults get the sign in the New Testament. 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:39.400 Then though in the Old Testament, Abraham is told, put the sign on your children. 00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.519 New Testament? 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.400 What are we told to do? 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:51.079 And this I think is fundamentally where the decision comes down to. 00:29:51.079 --> 00:30:00.000 The Baptist position would be, we're not told to carry on, so we're going to stop. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:06.240 Our position would be, we are not told to stop, so we are going to carry on. 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.480 And that's what it comes down to. 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:11.400 That's absolutely what it comes down to. 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:22.680 And we would argue that there's a continuation that the sign should be put onto your children. 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:27.759 If you think about it, you've got this great kind of promise fulfillment being fulfilled. 00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:29.960 Old Testament and New Testament. 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.400 God's covenant with Abraham being worked out across the generations to being fulfilled 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:36.400 and the new covenant with Jesus. 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.680 It's all kind of pointing forward. 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:45.039 The climax is with Jesus coming, Jesus dying, Jesus rising from the dead, Jesus ascending. 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.120 Everything's complete. 00:30:46.120 --> 00:30:52.039 And then you have this moment where it's like, right, here is the new covenant moment where 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:55.480 it's like, let's go with this message to the world. 00:30:55.480 --> 00:31:02.279 That takes place on the day of Pentecost when you have the promise back with Abraham for 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:08.599 all the nations being transmitted to the nations who come to Jerusalem and from there they 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:09.599 spread out. 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:15.839 So it's like, if anything, it's like, if you think about, you know, what's the big summary 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:20.960 moment of the whole thing that's been building up in terms of God's covenant plan? 00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:26.920 Pentecost is really that moment when God's covenant plan is just, it's like finally kicking 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:27.920 into gear. 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.480 Everything is about to go. 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:34.559 But Peter gives this magnificent speech talking all about God's accomplishment plan and you 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.519 think, okay, right, this is it. 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.039 The promise is fulfilled. 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:39.160 It's ready to go. 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:43.079 And if you wish, you just wish you could ask Peter the question, right, who's this covenant 00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:44.079 for? 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.319 Who is this actually for? 00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:47.319 Is it for adults? 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:48.319 Who's it for? 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:49.319 Who's it for? 00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:50.319 Who's it for? 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.360 I wish that he'd ask that question. 00:31:53.360 --> 00:31:56.160 When they heard this, they were cut to the heart and Peter said to the rest of the apostles, 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.400 you'd rather, what shall we do, he says to them, repent and be baptized, every one of 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:03.519 you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, you'll receive the gift of the 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:12.200 Holy Spirit for the promises for you and for your children, for all who are far off, everyone 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.759 whom the Lord our God calls to himself. 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:24.880 And for us, that's just a very strong, for me, a confirmation that that promise, that 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:31.400 application of the sign to the children in the Old Testament continues into the new. 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:37.320 For me, that makes it absolutely explicit when Peter says the promise is for you and 00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:39.560 for your children. 00:32:39.560 --> 00:32:43.400 What I think is important to remember, and I've never read this in a book, Phil, I'm 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:49.080 always nervous saying it, but when you go from Old Testament to New Testament, there's 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:56.279 a shadow reality pointing towards the promise fulfillment, and in the New Testament, everything 00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:00.039 always gets bigger, better, more inclusive. 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:05.000 And so, if you think about it, the Old Testament promises was focused on the Jewish nation, 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.679 it then expands to the world. 00:33:08.679 --> 00:33:15.480 To go with the position that baptism is not for children is to do the opposite and to 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:19.200 kind of narrow it rather than expand it. 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:27.680 For me, I think there's an amazing expansion from the Old to the New in baptism, because 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:34.640 in the Old Testament, the sign only went on boys, whereas in the New, it goes on everyone. 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:41.079 And it's like it's just broader, bigger, better, and for everyone. 00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:48.720 So for me, I think when you think of that big picture, you see it all just, to me, it 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.240 fits together incredibly well. 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:55.460 Now other people have different interpretations, other people like to put more of a discontinuity 00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:59.119 between the Old and New Testament, and I respect that. 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:03.119 This is just why we believe what we believe. 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:12.199 What I would want to kind of add to that though is that behind this, I think, lies the fact 00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:19.839 that family and children has always been just at the centre of God's purposes. 00:34:19.839 --> 00:34:22.799 And it's at the heart of the church, it's at the heart of what the church is meant to 00:34:22.799 --> 00:34:30.000 be, and that whole idea of one generation serving the next, one generation leading on 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.279 to the next. 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:39.320 Our children are not to be raised as outsiders who need to come into the church, they're 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:46.160 to be raised in the fear of the Lord as members of the covenant community. 00:34:46.160 --> 00:34:51.920 And I think that should always remind us that the next generation is something that we should 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:57.400 be so excited about, because if you think about all the incredible ways in which God 00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:58.600 has used people over the years. 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:05.119 So you think of people that God has used, people who've gone to bring the gospel to 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:09.400 new nations, people who've planted churches, people who've passed it incredibly well, people 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:15.519 who've written amazing books, the great theologians, think of all the big, big, big names we have 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.239 in the history of the church, who God has used in amazing ways. 00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:22.199 They all have one thing in common. 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:26.960 They were once wee babies. 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:31.519 And who knows what the wee babies in our congregation might be? 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:35.159 Who knows what the generation unborn will do? 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.639 God has amazing purposes for each generation. 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.159 So infant baptism, very cool. 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.480 Thanks, Thomas. 00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:48.480 Did well there, really. 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.480 It was only 12 minutes. 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:50.480 It was a metaphor. 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.480 I thought five minutes was a metaphor. 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.039 It was definitely an exaggeration. 00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:57.039 So well done. 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:03.880 It's impossible to answer a question on baptism too briefly anyway. 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:07.400 So we've got time for one more quick question. 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.440 I have a question in my back pocket, but I'm happy not to use it if anybody here has a 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:14.440 question. 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:18.599 So if you have a question you would like to ask Derek, now is your chance. 00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:24.039 I'll give you a 15 second window to put your hand up, and if not, I'll ask my question. 00:36:24.039 --> 00:36:26.239 So go for it. 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:28.039 That is... 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:34.320 Okay, if everyone didn't hear that, it's why in the light of what we were saying earlier, 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:40.559 why is hell not a metaphor or an exaggeration of being separated from God? 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:41.559 You're right. 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:43.320 That is not a good question to ask. 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:44.320 Last... 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:46.320 I've done mine. 00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:49.320 Infant baptism. 00:36:49.320 --> 00:37:02.720 Yeah, I think in the same way that Jesus says, or the New Testament says, that no eye has 00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:08.880 seen and no mind has conceived what God has in store for those who love Him. 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:13.680 So it's impossible to imagine what heaven is going to be like. 00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:18.240 And I think we kind of blow our brains about when we try to imagine what heaven is like. 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:24.159 The whole idea of trying to imagine what it's like to live eternally without getting bored, 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.599 or without... 00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.479 Yeah, just... 00:37:29.479 --> 00:37:36.919 It seems impossible because the last four Sunday nights at 25 past 6, that's happened. 00:37:36.919 --> 00:37:37.919 Yeah. 00:37:37.919 --> 00:37:42.319 It's to get me to stop myself. 00:37:42.319 --> 00:37:45.879 It's just a figure of darkness when you're speaking about hell. 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:51.599 I think in this... it's impossible to imagine heaven, and I think it's in some ways unhelpful 00:37:51.599 --> 00:38:00.480 other than anticipating that it's going to be remarkably better than we can ever imagine. 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:11.039 And in the same way, I find it very, very difficult to conceptualise what hell is. 00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:18.079 I can't begin to understand. 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:28.920 I think the cross of Jesus is where He experienced hell, separation from the Father, forsakenness. 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:33.079 I can't begin to understand what that looks like eternally. 00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:37.759 I don't know what the Bible means by that, ultimately. 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:45.000 But the idea of... we need to remember, we talk about hellish experiences here. 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:57.360 I don't think we've begun to comprehend that, but the reality is much, much worse than that. 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:07.760 And the very worst experiences here should drive us always towards Jesus, whether they 00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:12.880 be physical experiences or mental experiences of being in this world, which is under, as 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:18.000 we said earlier, under God's judgment. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.760 Yeah. 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:25.559 The Bible does use a lot of imagery about hell. 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:31.159 You know, Gehenna being the place of... just a word that was used to describe the rubbish 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:35.320 dump outside Jerusalem, which was constantly burning and no one wanted to go there. 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:39.480 And it talks about it being a place of fire, but also a place of internal darkness, and 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:41.559 it can't be both. 00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:46.679 Because if there's fire there, it would be... it wouldn't be in darkness if you see what 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:47.679 I mean. 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.559 So I think there's a lot of imagery in the pictures of hell, which are there to drive 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.559 us towards the light and drive us towards Jesus. 00:39:56.559 --> 00:40:00.320 So I can't comprehend... I can't begin to comprehend what ultimately is like. 00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:08.199 I think the only place that I can begin to understand it is... or we don't really begin 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:09.639 to understand it. 00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:16.000 Okay, Martin Luther went to study the idea of God forsaking of God. 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.960 When Jesus says, you know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:24.800 Which is really just the whole concept of hell that Jesus experienced. 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.599 And Martin Luther locked himself in a room for three days and three nights to fast and 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.240 pray to try and get an understanding of that. 00:40:31.240 --> 00:40:35.880 And at the end of it he came out and said, God forsaken of God, who can understand that? 00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:37.360 And it was beyond comprehension, I think. 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:43.039 And I think I find myself in that place with hell and heaven, to be honest. 00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:48.800 I believe in them both, very powerfully, because of Jesus. 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:53.080 But... and I think if we had any concept of what hell was like, it would be impossible 00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:54.080 to live. 00:40:54.080 --> 00:40:59.960 I think God and His grace has allowed us the ability to live without the concept of understanding 00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:05.920 it properly, because if we would, we would never move from our knees and it would be 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.519 impossible to live. 00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:15.480 But we do need to grasp what it means to be separated from God in this life even, to 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:20.760 the point where we are driven passionately, not only to thank God for what we have, but 00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:25.679 also to share the gospel with those who don't believe. 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:30.360 And there's a lot of mystery in all of that, Laura. 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.000 And I think we sometimes are a bit too simplistic about everything, because of the free will 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.480 He gives us and because of the blindness of people's eyes and hearts. 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:51.159 And sometimes we simply just need to trust and believe that what He has said. 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:55.519 And interestingly, it's bad if you get a question that you haven't prepared for because you 00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:58.840 end up rambling on, but interesting because you remember things. 00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:02.599 But interestingly, the person that spoke most about hell was Jesus. 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:08.079 Gentle Jesus, meek and mild, is the one who spoke about it most, who was aware of it most, 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:23.599 who recognized it most, who knew he was going to face it on the cross, and who bulked at 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.759 the idea in Gethsemane. 00:42:26.759 --> 00:42:30.079 If it is possible, take this cup from me. 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:37.119 It was almost too great for the eternal God to face in this humanity. 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:46.639 So I think we need to be very careful when we talk about hell to recognize that there 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:51.719 are a lot of images and metaphors and pictures in the Bible, but all of them are picturing 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:54.359 a bad place to be. 00:42:54.359 --> 00:43:00.119 And we remember that because we experience bad things here. 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:03.319 I'll finish with this. 00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:09.200 When I first went to Roskeen with Kenny McDonald, who was the minister there, and who saw many, 00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:17.680 many people coming to faith in Christ, he preached, and we'd often say this, he preached 00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:23.280 the love of Christ powerfully, and he preached the love of Christ relentlessly, he said, 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:30.920 because a lot of people that he was preaching to who came into the church came from an experience 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:36.960 of they had been wealthy, they had known there were a lot of people who moved down up to 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:40.639 that part of the world with the oil-related industry, and then that whole industry kind 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:43.440 of, or with the smelter, and that whole industry collapsed. 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.559 A lot of people were unemployed, there was a lot of social deprivation, there was a lot 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:54.960 of poverty and difficulty, and he said, they've tasted what hell's like. 00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:01.960 Now, you have to be guarded in that, but their life was kind of hellish if we talk about 00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:04.840 that in human terms. 00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:12.119 But they were drawn to the gospel because they knew in a very real way what some of 00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.960 the experiences have been separated from God, and they were drawn to the gospel, and they 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:20.800 preached the love of Christ, and they were drawn to that, and they were saved by that. 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:27.800 Preaching hell never saved anyone, it's not fear of hell that saves anyone, it's the 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:33.360 grace and the gospel of Jesus Christ that saves people. 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:38.440 The reality of hell can drive people to the Savior, but it must be the grace and mercy 00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:45.360 and love of Christ that redeems us not a kind of selfish escaping from hell. 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.960 So I don't know if that answers your question, probably not, but I'm not going to say any 00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:50.960 more. 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:58.559 So, in all of that, and in all of our work around the gospel and in all your reading 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:02.679 of the Scripture, we need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us. 00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:07.000 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.240 be with you all, and all God's people say. 00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:11.240 Amen. 00:45:11.240 --> 00:45:12.240 Amen. 00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:13.240 Amen.