WEBVTT

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 Friends, good morning. It's wonderful to have the invitation to speak at Adolf Sunday School again.

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 The last time I spoke here in the mornings at Adolf Sunday School, I think it was 2018,

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 when one of the last times I was on the baton.

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 My name's Rhys and I teach at Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia.

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 It's an Anglican Theological College. We call it, you'd call it a seminary.

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 And I teach chiefly church history, but have some other responsibilities on the side.

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 And because Australians are so lousy in thinking about history, I do this talk so often,

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 which is trying to give people a bit of a handle on 2,000 years.

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 It's ambitious and it will be slightly naive, but nonetheless really important.

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 Let me just get some handle on what the Lord has done over this extended period of time.

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 So let me pray for us.

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 We praise you, God, Father, Son and Spirit, for this wonderful hour together,

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 that we might learn and think and grow and understand a little better how we might serve you in the world.

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 So please, in all our words, in our thinking, in our speaking and listening,

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 may we honour you for Christ's sake. Amen.

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 Amen.

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 Well, there's a hangout in front of you with three columns, effectively.

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 Each of those columns represents a significant moment in church history.

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 Now, I could have added other columns.

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 You might note there's no medieval column, for example.

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 That is a function more or less of the fact that I teach three history units at Ridley,

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 Early Church, Reformation Church, and Modern Evangelicalism.

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 So I don't teach a unit of medieval history.

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 So the limitations of this handout or of this session

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 are a function of the limitations of my own teaching and competencies.

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 What I want to do is to introduce you to each of those three periods

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 and show how each of those three periods is like and dislike the periods preceding.

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 And that way we can kind of get a picture of how church history has developed

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 in the course of the last 2,000 years.

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 So, for example, we want to look at the early church,

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 roughly speaking, the first 500 years.

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 In that period, the chief debate was about who is God, who is Christ.

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 So, if you will, the doctrine that was chiefly debated

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 was the doctrines of God and Christ.

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 Of course, they talked about any number of other things.

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 That goes without saying.

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 But nonetheless, when they talked about those other things,

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 they realised that to have an answer to those other questions,

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 they first of all had an answer to the question,

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 who is God, who is Christ.

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 And then you could work out the others.

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 They kept being forced back to that really fundamental concern.

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 They were talking about who is God,

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 the doctrine of the Trinity,

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 who is Christ,

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 how can this man, Jesus Christ,

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 be the second person of the Trinity?

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 So, the great distinctive that they highlighted

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 was how Christ can be with us.

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 Emmanuel, God with us.

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 How can the second person of the Trinity

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 be amongst us, walk with us,

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 die for us?

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 So, when they talked about any number of things,

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 they kept coming back to this core belief,

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 Christ with us.

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 This core distinctive.

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 How Christ,

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 the second person of the Trinity,

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 the Son of God,

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 could walk this earth

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 with us.

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 And when they settled these debates,

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 they summarised their conversations

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 through a number of different creeds.

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 And you might know some,

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 the Apostles' Creed,

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 the Nicene Creed,

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 or perhaps the Affirmation Creed.

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 In those creeds,

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 you'll notice that there's no mention

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 of the word grace.

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 There's no mention of the word atonement.

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 There's lots of words that we would use

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 that don't appear.

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 They're mainly about Christ

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 and Christ who is with us.

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 Not that they didn't believe in the atonement,

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 and not that they didn't believe

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 in the Holy Spirit,

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 but nonetheless,

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 their debates were circling

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 around this kind of core idea.

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 They wrote creeds

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 to summarise those debates

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 and to defend those insights.

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 If you agree with the Apostles' Creed,

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 or the Nicene Creed,

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 or the Affirmation Creed,

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 for that matter,

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 you can describe yourself

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 as Orthodox or Catholic.

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 That doesn't mean Greek

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 or Russian Orthodox.

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 That doesn't mean Roman Catholic.

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 These are words that just describe

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 your commitment to the creeds.

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 So I can describe myself

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 as an Orthodox Christian.

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 I'm in no sense Greek.

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 I can describe myself

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 as a Catholic Christian,

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 but I'm in no sense Roman Catholic.

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 But I describe myself

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 in these terms

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 because I will heartily affirm

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 the Apostles' Creed

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 or the Nicene Creed in church,

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 or elsewhere,

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 that matter.

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 This is also an unusual period

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 because in this moment,

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 in these first 500 years,

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 Christians went from being

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 a persecuted minority

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 to having legal status

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 in the Roman Empire.

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 So this was the beginning

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 of what we might name Christendom,

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 where church and state

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 are working together

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 for the common good.

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 Previously,

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 the state,

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 the Roman Emperor,

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 believed that the church

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 didn't represent the common good,

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 and therefore they must be persecuted

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 and minimised.

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 But there came a point

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 in the beginning

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 of the 4th century

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 when the Emperor said,

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 no, you know what?

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 I think they are no longer

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 a threat to the state.

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 We will work with them.

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 At least initially,

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 the church was given

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 some legal status

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 like their own buildings

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 and you didn't have to

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 be fed to the lions

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 and you misbehaved anymore.

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 So this was,

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 crudely put,

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 the way the first 500 years

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 of church history

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 operated.

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 The early church,

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 or some people might

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 describe it as

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 the patristic period.

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 I'm going to pause now,

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 take that sip of water,

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 and ask if you have any

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 thoughts, comments,

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 follow-up questions.

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 There are no dumb questions,

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 right?

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 There are just dumb answers.

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 So you should feel free

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 to ask whatever

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 you want to ask.

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 If there's things here,

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 and of course,

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 it's racing through this,

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 so if people who know

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 something about the early

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 church might find

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 3,000 holes in what

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 I've just said.

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 Brother?

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 I thought the distinction

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 between Orthodox and

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 Catholic came in the

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 11th century.

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 Yeah, so that is true

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 when you use those words

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 to describe denominations,

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 but those words are

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 commonly referred to,

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 commonly used to describe

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 a commitment to the

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 creeds.

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 So you're correct.

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 The word Catholic

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 was used very early on.

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 The word Orthodox

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 was used very early on.

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 But they weren't words

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 being used to describe

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 the difference between

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 the Roman church

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 and the Greek church.

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 What was the difference

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 in this time period?

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 There was hardly a difference

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 in this time period.

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 Yeah, yeah.

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 So Catholic means

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 according to the whole,

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 and the Catholic position

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 was that if you belong

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 to the majority church,

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 if you can say the creeds,

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 if you can't say the creeds,

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 you're a schismatic.

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 You don't belong to the

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 majority church or the

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 whole church.

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 I think that's a question

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 Yeah, so if at this time

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 the focus was on this

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 defence of Christ with us,

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 does that mean there was

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 very little discussion

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 of the doctrines of grace

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 and spirit,

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 or they were just secondary?

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 Yes.

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 They were accepted facts,

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 or how did they

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 understand those things?

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 Yes, of course.

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 Because we know today

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 you can't live with just one.

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 You need all three

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 to degree your faith.

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 So they were talking about

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 grace and the spirit

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 all the time.

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 Okay.

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 But to answer their questions

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 about grace and the spirit,

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 they had to push deeper

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 and kept coming back

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 to the question,

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 you can only define grace

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 if you first understood

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 who Christ is with us,

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 how the second person

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 of the Trinity

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 can walk this earth.

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 but that's kind of

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 the concrete foundation.

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 So it's not that they

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 didn't have the questions,

00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:42.159
 they didn't ignore

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 the questions,

00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:44.419
 but they kept saying,

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 well, if we want to

00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:45.939
 answer that question,

00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:47.919
 perhaps there's a prior question

00:09:48.439 --> 00:09:49.899
 and we still need to

00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:51.339
 work out who Jesus is

00:09:51.339 --> 00:09:52.860
 before we can work out

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 who Jesus was

00:09:54.139 --> 00:09:54.860
 who sent the spirit

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 according to Acts 2.

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 There's a back question.

00:09:58.639 --> 00:09:58.939
 Yes.

00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:01.759
 We may be stepping

00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:02.659
 way out of bounds,

00:10:02.779 --> 00:10:04.460
 but a little bit

00:10:04.460 --> 00:10:08.019
 about the text

00:10:08.019 --> 00:10:10.100
 and the development

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 of the text

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 and how it was passed down

00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.439
 in those first 500 years.

00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:15.120
 Yes, thank you.

00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:16.100
 You mean text of the Bible?

00:10:16.539 --> 00:10:16.919
 Correct.

00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:18.419
 Documentation,

00:10:18.580 --> 00:10:19.139
 a little bit,

00:10:19.439 --> 00:10:20.139
 maybe a little bit

00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:20.899
 about the languages

00:10:20.899 --> 00:10:21.740
 that were used

00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:23.039
 because we were in Europe,

00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:23.519
 et cetera.

00:10:23.819 --> 00:10:24.860
 Yeah, sure, sure.

00:10:25.539 --> 00:10:26.639
 Is it even possible

00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:27.439
 to squeeze it in

00:10:27.439 --> 00:10:28.080
 in 30 seconds?

00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:29.840
 So give me 35.

00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:33.840
 So in the first

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 100 years or so,

00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:36.480
 the texts,

00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:37.480
 Colossians,

00:10:37.899 --> 00:10:38.879
 Matthew, whatever,

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 were circulating

00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:41.720
 more or less independently

00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:43.399
 and then churches

00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:45.460
 started accumulating

00:10:45.460 --> 00:10:46.799
 or copying the texts

00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:47.879
 that were circulating

00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:48.539
 independently.

00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:49.879
 So one church

00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:50.679
 just had Colossians

00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:51.279
 and one church

00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:51.840
 had Romans.

00:10:52.319 --> 00:10:53.379
 They swapped them.

00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:54.700
 Now each church

00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:55.399
 has Colossians

00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:56.360
 and Romans, right?

00:10:56.740 --> 00:10:57.399
 So it took about

00:10:57.399 --> 00:10:58.240
 100 years

00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:58.879
 and then

00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:00.919
 the list

00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:01.700
 of books

00:11:01.700 --> 00:11:02.519
 that belonged

00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:03.320
 in the New Testament

00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:04.919
 became pretty settled.

00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:07.419
 by about the year 180.

00:11:07.939 --> 00:11:08.879
 But there was still

00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:10.519
 some further debate

00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:10.939
 whether

00:11:10.939 --> 00:11:12.319
 two Peter and Jude

00:11:12.319 --> 00:11:12.919
 belonged.

00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:15.679
 But it was a slow process

00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.319
 over the first

00:11:17.319 --> 00:11:18.299
 couple hundred years.

00:11:20.199 --> 00:11:21.539
 So for years

00:11:21.539 --> 00:11:22.799
 I've described myself

00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:23.620
 as Orthodox,

00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:24.539
 Catholic,

00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.679
 Protestant,

00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:27.759
 sometimes plain vanilla

00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:28.459
 Protestant,

00:11:29.079 --> 00:11:29.759
 and evangelical,

00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.179
 depending on who

00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:32.679
 I'm talking

00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:33.819
 Yeah, sure, sure.

00:11:35.439 --> 00:11:36.419
 And nevertheless,

00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.439
 I have some quibbles

00:11:38.439 --> 00:11:39.679
 with the creeds,

00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.439
 even the Apostles' Creed.

00:11:45.139 --> 00:11:46.860
 For our church history class

00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:47.539
 we've been reading

00:11:47.539 --> 00:11:49.019
 Pusto Gonzalez's book

00:11:49.019 --> 00:11:49.960
 The Story of Christianity,

00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:50.299
 right?

00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:51.419
 So in the chapter

00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:51.939
 I'm reading

00:11:51.939 --> 00:11:53.279
 he reproduces

00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:54.699
 some version

00:11:54.699 --> 00:11:55.459
 of awe,

00:11:55.899 --> 00:11:57.199
 the old Roman creed,

00:11:57.259 --> 00:11:57.500
 right?

00:11:58.139 --> 00:11:59.899
 And I found myself

00:11:59.899 --> 00:12:00.699
 writing yes,

00:12:00.959 --> 00:12:01.359
 yes,

00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:02.219
 yes,

00:12:02.439 --> 00:12:03.219
 next to

00:12:03.219 --> 00:12:05.120
 his English

00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:05.899
 statement

00:12:05.899 --> 00:12:06.659
 of the creed.

00:12:07.099 --> 00:12:08.319
 But I can't write

00:12:08.319 --> 00:12:09.459
 that quite

00:12:09.459 --> 00:12:11.079
 with the Apostles' Creed

00:12:11.079 --> 00:12:12.259
 or the Nicene Creed

00:12:12.259 --> 00:12:13.299
 or the Athenation.

00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:13.979
 Yes, I see.

00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:15.360
 So the creeds...

00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:16.600
 So my question is,

00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:18.440
 am I still justifying

00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:19.440
 calling myself a Catholic?

00:12:19.560 --> 00:12:19.980
 And I'm not.

00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:20.840
 Yeah, sure.

00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:23.740
 The creeds

00:12:23.740 --> 00:12:24.720
 aren't the scriptures.

00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:26.580
 So you're allowed

00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:27.039
 to disagree

00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:27.879
 with the creeds.

00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:30.399
 There are some

00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:31.200
 quibbles around

00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:31.700
 the edges

00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:32.399
 about what

00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:33.180
 in the creeds

00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:34.840
 we might easily

00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:35.759
 or with more

00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:36.320
 difficulty

00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.379
 ascend to.

00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:39.620
 But that aside,

00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:40.680
 I still think

00:12:40.680 --> 00:12:42.120
 the chief way

00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:43.000
 we use the word

00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:43.800
 Catholic and Orthodox

00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:45.259
 is to describe

00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:45.959
 our commitment

00:12:45.959 --> 00:12:47.259
 to creed or Christianity,

00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:48.719
 the big tradition

00:12:48.719 --> 00:12:49.639
 that begins

00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:50.839
 with that discussion

00:12:50.839 --> 00:12:51.419
 of the doctrine

00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:51.979
 of the Trinity.

00:12:52.439 --> 00:12:52.939
 Yeah, so people

00:12:52.939 --> 00:12:53.539
 might quibble

00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:54.539
 or try and work

00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:55.059
 out what it means

00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:55.959
 that Christ ascended

00:12:55.959 --> 00:12:58.219
 to hell

00:12:58.219 --> 00:12:59.219
 or Christ ascended

00:12:59.219 --> 00:12:59.639
 to the dead.

00:12:59.719 --> 00:13:00.199
 That might be

00:13:00.199 --> 00:13:02.599
 a classic debate

00:13:02.599 --> 00:13:03.819
 amongst Christians

00:13:03.819 --> 00:13:04.419
 what they're doing.

00:13:07.899 --> 00:13:08.959
 Well, this is great.

00:13:09.199 --> 00:13:09.839
 These are the questions

00:13:09.839 --> 00:13:10.559
 about the early church.

00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:11.379
 Just let's get

00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:12.000
 to the Reformation.

00:13:12.199 --> 00:13:12.539
 We'll see

00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:13.559
 how many questions

00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:14.099
 we have here.

00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.240
 So the early church,

00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:20.799
 the first 500 years,

00:13:21.379 --> 00:13:22.480
 discussed the doctrines

00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:23.459
 of God and Christ.

00:13:24.019 --> 00:13:25.339
 They summarised

00:13:25.339 --> 00:13:27.419
 their debates

00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:28.299
 with the language

00:13:28.299 --> 00:13:28.879
 of Christ

00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:29.579
 with us.

00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.480
 They wrote them down

00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.459
 or they captured them

00:13:33.459 --> 00:13:34.339
 in the Apostles

00:13:34.339 --> 00:13:34.919
 of Nicene

00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:35.919
 or Athanasian Creed.

00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:37.620
 and if you can

00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:39.379
 agree with them

00:13:39.379 --> 00:13:41.719
 in substantial amounts,

00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:42.659
 you can call yourself

00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:43.459
 an Orthodox Christian

00:13:43.459 --> 00:13:44.219
 or a Catholic Christian.

00:13:44.659 --> 00:13:45.319
 It was the beginning

00:13:45.319 --> 00:13:45.979
 of Christendom.

00:13:46.939 --> 00:13:48.719
 But a thousand years later,

00:13:51.099 --> 00:13:51.639
 Christians

00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:53.339
 in the West

00:13:53.339 --> 00:13:56.839
 started finding difficulties

00:13:56.839 --> 00:13:57.659
 with the way

00:13:57.659 --> 00:13:58.979
 the medieval church

00:13:58.979 --> 00:14:01.240
 was doing its ministry

00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.180
 and explaining its theology.

00:14:05.180 --> 00:14:06.720
 So the medieval church

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.799
 had become a place

00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:10.460
 where grace

00:14:10.460 --> 00:14:12.100
 was seen

00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:13.480
 as a substance,

00:14:14.259 --> 00:14:16.600
 something that you could trade,

00:14:17.379 --> 00:14:18.340
 something you could buy

00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:18.960
 or sell,

00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:20.899
 something that you could

00:14:20.899 --> 00:14:23.019
 participate in

00:14:23.019 --> 00:14:24.480
 if a priest

00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:25.440
 of the church

00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:26.240
 performed the sacraments.

00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:28.379
 grace somehow

00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:29.700
 seemed a commodity

00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:31.460
 that you could

00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:33.779
 provide exchange for.

00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:38.039
 The story of how

00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:38.960
 the Western church

00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:39.820
 got to that place,

00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:40.299
 of course,

00:14:40.580 --> 00:14:41.620
 is a long

00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:42.639
 and complicated one.

00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:45.360
 If you have

00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.360
 a certain view

00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:47.080
 of grace

00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:48.139
 that it's a commodity,

00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:49.680
 you'll think

00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:50.799
 the church

00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:51.600
 is a place

00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:52.240
 of exchange.

00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:54.500
 What you

00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:55.799
 think of grace

00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:56.919
 shapes

00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:57.519
 what you think

00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:58.019
 the church

00:14:58.019 --> 00:14:58.519
 is for.

00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:00.539
 If you think

00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:01.059
 grace

00:15:01.059 --> 00:15:01.839
 is

00:15:01.839 --> 00:15:03.779
 a personal

00:15:03.779 --> 00:15:04.519
 encounter

00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:05.159
 with the Lord

00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:05.919
 Jesus Christ,

00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:06.399
 or if you think

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:06.819
 grace

00:15:06.819 --> 00:15:07.979
 is the personal

00:15:07.979 --> 00:15:08.779
 presence of the Lord,

00:15:08.959 --> 00:15:09.379
 you'll think

00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:09.819
 the church

00:15:09.819 --> 00:15:10.299
 is a place

00:15:10.299 --> 00:15:10.679
 where you're

00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:11.099
 encouraged

00:15:11.099 --> 00:15:11.639
 to personally

00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:12.240
 meet the Lord.

00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:13.659
 But if you think

00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:14.019
 grace

00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:15.259
 is a substance,

00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:16.579
 not personal,

00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:17.599
 impersonal,

00:15:17.819 --> 00:15:18.319
 something you can

00:15:18.319 --> 00:15:18.740
 exchange,

00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:19.439
 then you'll think

00:15:19.439 --> 00:15:19.779
 the church

00:15:19.779 --> 00:15:20.240
 is a place

00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:20.759
 of exchange.

00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:21.759
 What you do

00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:22.579
 with grace

00:15:22.579 --> 00:15:23.500
 impacts

00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:24.059
 what you think

00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:24.639
 the church

00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:25.240
 is for.

00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.439
 So the

00:15:28.439 --> 00:15:29.439
 reformers

00:15:29.439 --> 00:15:30.579
 of the

00:15:30.579 --> 00:15:31.659
 16th century,

00:15:32.299 --> 00:15:33.199
 they had no

00:15:33.199 --> 00:15:34.079
 problem with

00:15:34.079 --> 00:15:35.459
 the left-hand

00:15:35.459 --> 00:15:35.919
 column.

00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:38.159
 The reformers

00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.639
 believed in

00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:40.399
 the doctrine

00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:40.939
 of the Trinity

00:15:40.939 --> 00:15:41.879
 and Christ,

00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:42.559
 the second

00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:43.000
 verse of the

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:43.259
 Trinity,

00:15:43.599 --> 00:15:44.059
 walking this

00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:44.839
 earth in a

00:15:44.839 --> 00:15:45.139
 body.

00:15:45.699 --> 00:15:46.539
 They believed

00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:48.319
 that Christ

00:15:48.319 --> 00:15:49.000
 is with us.

00:15:49.439 --> 00:15:50.459
 They upheld

00:15:50.459 --> 00:15:51.279
 the Apostles'

00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:51.519
 Creed,

00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:52.199
 the Nicene

00:15:52.199 --> 00:15:52.439
 Creed,

00:15:52.539 --> 00:15:53.139
 the Affirmation

00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:53.479
 Creed.

00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:54.500
 They had

00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:54.940
 no problem

00:15:54.940 --> 00:15:55.320
 using the

00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:55.480
 word

00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:55.940
 orthodox

00:15:55.940 --> 00:15:56.399
 or Catholic

00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:57.060
 to describe

00:15:57.060 --> 00:15:57.539
 themselves.

00:15:58.639 --> 00:15:59.700
 But now

00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:00.539
 they're trying

00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:01.379
 to tweak,

00:16:01.899 --> 00:16:02.600
 they're trying

00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:03.420
 to adjust,

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:04.620
 they're trying

00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:05.700
 to rethink

00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:07.200
 one particular

00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:07.519
 thing,

00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:07.860
 though it will

00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:08.240
 have big

00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:09.000
 implications.

00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:10.680
 They're trying

00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:11.139
 to think

00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:12.000
 more carefully

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.220
 about what

00:16:13.220 --> 00:16:14.399
 grace is

00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.279
 and therefore

00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:16.939
 what the

00:16:16.939 --> 00:16:17.639
 church is

00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:18.039
 for.

00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:20.879
 And you'd

00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:21.740
 know that

00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:23.079
 one of the

00:16:23.079 --> 00:16:24.539
 great doctrines

00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:25.740
 that the

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:26.659
 reformers

00:16:26.659 --> 00:16:27.699
 decided to

00:16:27.699 --> 00:16:28.399
 hold on to

00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:29.059
 in a certain

00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:29.679
 way of being

00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:30.860
 taught was

00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:31.340
 the doctrine

00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:32.039
 of justification.

00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:33.459
 We often say

00:16:33.459 --> 00:16:34.179
 justification by

00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:34.500
 faith.

00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:35.079
 Actually the

00:16:35.079 --> 00:16:35.539
 phrase is

00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:36.019
 justification

00:16:36.019 --> 00:16:37.720
 by grace

00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:39.360
 through faith.

00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.259
 justification is

00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:41.759
 a way of

00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:42.720
 describing grace,

00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:44.360
 that you

00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:45.259
 can't merit

00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:45.779
 it, that you

00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:46.779
 can't achieve

00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:47.220
 it, that you

00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:47.659
 can't do

00:16:47.659 --> 00:16:48.279
 anything that

00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:49.019
 would earn it.

00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:51.820
 The reformers

00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:53.720
 held on to

00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:54.500
 the slogan

00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:56.779
 Christ for

00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:58.600
 us in our

00:16:58.600 --> 00:16:59.259
 place,

00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:01.340
 taking our

00:17:01.340 --> 00:17:01.840
 penalty.

00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:01.960
 justification.

00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:04.900
 It wasn't

00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:05.200
 that they were

00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:05.860
 giving up on

00:17:05.860 --> 00:17:06.840
 Christ with

00:17:06.840 --> 00:17:08.240
 us, that

00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:08.660
 was a given,

00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.000
 like that

00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:09.340
 wasn't even

00:17:09.340 --> 00:17:09.740
 debated.

00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:11.620
 No, it's a

00:17:11.620 --> 00:17:12.519
 much narrower

00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:13.160
 set of

00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:14.160
 concerns now

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.500
 concerning grace

00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:17.140
 in the church

00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:18.019
 and they

00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:19.660
 summarise that

00:17:19.660 --> 00:17:20.640
 under the

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:21.420
 slogan Christ

00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:23.160
 for us or

00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:23.980
 in explaining

00:17:23.980 --> 00:17:24.559
 teaching,

00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:25.400
 writing about

00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:25.880
 the doctrine

00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:26.759
 of justification,

00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:28.360
 justification

00:17:28.360 --> 00:17:29.600
 by grace

00:17:29.600 --> 00:17:30.880
 through faith.

00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.759
 So if you

00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:34.480
 will, the

00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:35.299
 early church

00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:36.839
 provided a

00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.559
 broad pedestal

00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:39.959
 and now the

00:17:39.959 --> 00:17:40.720
 reformers are

00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:41.220
 standing on

00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:41.879
 that pedestal,

00:17:42.419 --> 00:17:42.859
 they're a bit

00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:43.859
 higher up and

00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:44.399
 they're building

00:17:44.399 --> 00:17:46.179
 another layer,

00:17:46.379 --> 00:17:47.139
 another floor,

00:17:47.459 --> 00:17:48.199
 another story.

00:17:48.679 --> 00:17:49.419
 It's not quite as

00:17:49.419 --> 00:17:50.720
 wide as the

00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:51.799
 first layer,

00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:53.240
 but it builds

00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:53.720
 taller.

00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:55.519
 And they

00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:56.480
 decided to

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.059
 summarise this

00:17:58.059 --> 00:17:59.119
 teaching about

00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:00.099
 Christ for us

00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:01.139
 in

00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.960
 confessions of

00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.440
 faith.

00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:06.080
 These are not

00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:06.640
 creeds.

00:18:08.259 --> 00:18:09.160
 They believe

00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:09.600
 the creeds,

00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:10.220
 they agree with

00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:10.680
 the creeds,

00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:11.180
 they have held

00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:11.460
 the creeds.

00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:12.000
 Now this is

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.280
 an addition to

00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:13.960
 the creeds.

00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:14.940
 These are

00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:15.800
 confessions of

00:18:15.800 --> 00:18:16.920
 faith which are

00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:18.000
 trying to more

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.640
 particularly describe

00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.180
 what grace is

00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:22.160
 and what the

00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.080
 church is for.

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:24.800
 So they wrote

00:18:24.800 --> 00:18:25.640
 the Augsburg

00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:26.780
 confession, if you

00:18:26.780 --> 00:18:27.580
 are more Lutheran,

00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:28.259
 the Heidelberg

00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:29.720
 confession, if you

00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:30.200
 are more

00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:32.120
 reformed, the

00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:32.819
 Schleitheim

00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:34.000
 confession, if

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:34.460
 you're more

00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:36.140
 Baptistic, the

00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:37.559
 39 articles, if

00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:38.240
 you're an

00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:38.720
 Anglican

00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:39.279
 Protestant.

00:18:39.980 --> 00:18:40.900
 These were

00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:42.180
 statements

00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:44.180
 effectively, not

00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:44.720
 in time, but

00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.080
 effectively about

00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:46.840
 the nature of

00:18:46.840 --> 00:18:48.380
 grace and the

00:18:48.380 --> 00:18:48.980
 nature of the

00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:49.440
 church.

00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:52.120
 So if you can

00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:53.180
 agree with the

00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.620
 Augsburg

00:18:53.620 --> 00:18:54.440
 confession or the

00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:54.799
 Heidelberg

00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.480
 confession, you

00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:56.059
 can describe

00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:56.740
 yourself as a

00:18:56.740 --> 00:18:57.200
 Lutheran

00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.660
 Protestant or

00:18:58.660 --> 00:18:59.180
 Reformed

00:18:59.180 --> 00:18:59.880
 Protestant or

00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:00.440
 Anabaptist

00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:01.039
 Protestant or

00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:01.640
 Anglican

00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:02.400
 Protestant according

00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:03.319
 to the

00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:04.059
 confession that

00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:05.640
 you ascribe to.

00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:07.900
 So I'm an

00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:08.519
 Anglican

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:09.240
 Protestant.

00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:09.900
 I'm also

00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:10.519
 Orthodox and

00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:11.059
 Catholic, right?

00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:11.460
 Because I can

00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:12.000
 still say the

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:12.380
 creeds.

00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:13.440
 Being Anglican

00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:14.220
 doesn't mean that

00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:15.160
 you reject the

00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:15.720
 creeds, right?

00:19:15.819 --> 00:19:16.500
 It might in some

00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:17.160
 circles, but not

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:17.579
 in mine.

00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:21.700
 And in this

00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:23.599
 era, there was

00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.159
 still the

00:19:24.159 --> 00:19:25.299
 assumption that

00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:25.959
 church and

00:19:25.959 --> 00:19:26.980
 state would

00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:27.759
 work together

00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:28.119
 for the

00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:28.719
 common good.

00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:30.659
 There was a

00:19:30.659 --> 00:19:31.719
 tiny bit of

00:19:31.719 --> 00:19:32.399
 separation.

00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:34.419
 Calvin tried

00:19:34.419 --> 00:19:35.899
 to move his

00:19:35.899 --> 00:19:36.579
 church a little

00:19:36.579 --> 00:19:37.679
 away from the

00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:38.379
 city authorities

00:19:38.379 --> 00:19:39.980
 in Geneva, but

00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:41.619
 effectively they

00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:42.379
 were not

00:19:42.379 --> 00:19:43.480
 overturning

00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:45.319
 radically, that

00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:45.559
 is the

00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:46.019
 magistrate

00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:47.159
 reformers, the

00:19:47.159 --> 00:19:47.819
 assumption that

00:19:47.819 --> 00:19:48.319
 church and

00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:48.779
 state would

00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:49.459
 work together.

00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:52.480
 So can you

00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:53.079
 see that

00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:54.159
 in this

00:19:54.159 --> 00:19:55.059
 middle column

00:19:55.059 --> 00:19:59.019
 Protestant

00:19:59.019 --> 00:20:00.619
 believers have

00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:01.699
 tried to

00:20:01.699 --> 00:20:04.799
 supplement or

00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.039
 clarify some

00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:08.980
 issues that

00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:09.879
 have remained

00:20:09.879 --> 00:20:11.799
 uncertain or

00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:13.079
 unclear from

00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:13.559
 the early

00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:14.019
 church?

00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:14.599
 Or if they

00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:15.139
 hadn't remained

00:20:15.139 --> 00:20:16.119
 unclear, they

00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:16.619
 had nonetheless

00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.139
 in the middle

00:20:17.139 --> 00:20:18.259
 age been obscured

00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:19.639
 by Roman

00:20:19.639 --> 00:20:20.500
 Catholic teaching.

00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.140
 So if you

00:20:23.140 --> 00:20:24.480
 pause and hear

00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:25.079
 your thoughts or

00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:25.660
 your comments.

00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:25.759
 Yes.

00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:27.019
 stop.

00:20:33.500 --> 00:20:35.220
 Yeah, I think it's

00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:35.799
 really important

00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:37.140
 the point where

00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:38.879
 they were, they

00:20:38.879 --> 00:20:39.599
 destroyed the

00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:40.420
 left-hand side of

00:20:40.420 --> 00:20:40.740
 the column.

00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:41.099
 Correct.

00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:42.839
 And one of the

00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:44.079
 arguments that I

00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.019
 think Roman

00:20:45.019 --> 00:20:45.679
 Catholics use

00:20:45.679 --> 00:20:46.439
 against Lutherans

00:20:46.439 --> 00:20:47.359
 is there was

00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:48.199
 never a Lutheran

00:20:48.199 --> 00:20:48.740
 before Martin

00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:49.000
 Luther.

00:20:49.219 --> 00:20:49.500
 Yes.

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:49.980
 There was never

00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:50.579
 a Calvinist

00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:51.480
 before John

00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:51.819
 Calvin.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:52.319
 Yes.

00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.879
 But they're

00:20:53.879 --> 00:20:54.740
 trying to show

00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:55.919
 that they were

00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:58.279
 in lockstep with

00:20:58.279 --> 00:20:59.079
 the early church.

00:20:59.379 --> 00:21:00.000
 So they weren't

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.819
 schismatics.

00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:03.059
 Instead, they

00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:04.859
 were going back

00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:05.779
 to the patristic

00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:07.599
 church fathers and

00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:09.119
 the understanding

00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.460
 of grace and

00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:13.200
 Christ that they

00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:13.559
 taught.

00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:13.980
 Correct.

00:21:14.639 --> 00:21:16.079
 But I think a

00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.220
 lot of Protestants

00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:20.579
 think that there

00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:21.919
 was novelties and

00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.100
 innovations and

00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:24.180
 very Calvinist,

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:24.900
 very clear that

00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:25.480
 he's going back

00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:26.400
 to Augustine and

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.880
 the church fathers.

00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:29.000
 So I appreciate

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:29.279
 that.

00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:30.300
 Well, the

00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:30.779
 Reformation

00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:31.940
 effectively was

00:21:31.940 --> 00:21:32.680
 the rediscovery

00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:33.320
 of Augustine,

00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:34.060
 Augustine's

00:21:34.060 --> 00:21:34.660
 doctrine of grace,

00:21:35.100 --> 00:21:35.800
 which effectively

00:21:35.800 --> 00:21:36.300
 means the

00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:36.960
 rediscovery of

00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:37.259
 Paul.

00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.800
 So you're

00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:42.720
 absolutely correct.

00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:44.480
 Luther did not

00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:45.460
 see himself as

00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:46.080
 a revolutionary.

00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:47.740
 He just wanted

00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.320
 to recapture

00:21:50.320 --> 00:21:51.779
 something of

00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:52.539
 the scriptural

00:21:52.539 --> 00:21:53.339
 authority of the

00:21:53.339 --> 00:21:54.599
 early church and

00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:55.720
 to then hone what

00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:57.039
 he believed was

00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:58.740
 an era of the

00:21:58.740 --> 00:21:59.279
 late medieval

00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.779
 church.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.000
 It's also true

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:02.440
 that there were

00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:03.500
 lots of reformers

00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:03.839
 through the

00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.000
 middle ages and

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:05.480
 lots of people

00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:06.000
 were complaining

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:06.579
 about the Roman

00:22:06.579 --> 00:22:07.259
 church and the

00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:07.879
 papacy, right?

00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:08.839
 So Luther's not the

00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:09.200
 first.

00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:11.259
 The clever thing

00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:11.740
 though about

00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:12.299
 Roman Catholic

00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:13.940
 church in the

00:22:13.940 --> 00:22:15.000
 middle ages is

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:15.960
 that when there

00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:16.799
 were people who

00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.619
 were agitated for

00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:20.159
 reform, the

00:22:20.159 --> 00:22:21.479
 papacy let those

00:22:21.479 --> 00:22:22.719
 folk become an

00:22:22.719 --> 00:22:23.099
 order.

00:22:24.199 --> 00:22:25.219
 The Franciscans,

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.379
 the Dominicans,

00:22:26.959 --> 00:22:28.699
 and of course a

00:22:28.699 --> 00:22:29.139
 whole lot of

00:22:29.139 --> 00:22:30.479
 others, the

00:22:30.479 --> 00:22:31.139
 Benedictines.

00:22:31.379 --> 00:22:33.219
 So they allowed

00:22:33.219 --> 00:22:34.659
 the disagreement to

00:22:34.659 --> 00:22:36.379
 stand but also

00:22:36.379 --> 00:22:37.679
 contained the

00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:39.039
 disagreement in

00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.279
 order.

00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:40.039
 So it's a very,

00:22:40.879 --> 00:22:42.779
 I don't mean this

00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:43.920
 cynically, it's a

00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:44.599
 very clever model,

00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:44.819
 right?

00:22:45.339 --> 00:22:46.139
 You're kind of

00:22:46.139 --> 00:22:47.079
 allowing there to

00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.000
 be this range of

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:50.680
 opinion but

00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:51.680
 nonetheless this range

00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:52.379
 of opinion is

00:22:52.379 --> 00:22:56.240
 being cleverly

00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.960
 circumscribed.

00:22:59.619 --> 00:23:00.099
 Suppressed.

00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:01.599
 Yes, well no,

00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:02.099
 they weren't being

00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:02.839
 suppressed because

00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:03.420
 they're allowed to

00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:04.059
 exist, right?

00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:05.279
 They're allowed to

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:05.660
 exist.

00:23:05.660 --> 00:23:06.779
 And in fact,

00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:08.160
 St. Francis was

00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:09.519
 given amazing

00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:10.320
 permission to

00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:13.019
 preach whereas it

00:23:13.019 --> 00:23:14.080
 was illegal if

00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:14.740
 you were a lay

00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:15.560
 person to

00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:16.040
 preach.

00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:18.580
 St. Francis was

00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:19.300
 a lay person and

00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:19.800
 the Pope said,

00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:20.400
 yeah, look, you're

00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:20.840
 not going to say

00:23:20.840 --> 00:23:21.840
 anything stupid so

00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:22.380
 I'm going to let you

00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:22.700
 preach.

00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:27.880
 So they were

00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:28.400
 allowed to do it,

00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:28.540
 right?

00:23:28.620 --> 00:23:30.160
 But it was kind of

00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:31.900
 channeled perhaps is

00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:32.800
 better than suppressed.

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:33.519
 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:35.220
 I've just written,

00:23:35.420 --> 00:23:36.060
 no, I just haven't

00:23:36.060 --> 00:23:36.279
 written.

00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:37.420
 I've just translated

00:23:37.420 --> 00:23:38.899
 a biography of

00:23:38.899 --> 00:23:40.639
 St. Francis from

00:23:40.639 --> 00:23:41.259
 German to English

00:23:41.259 --> 00:23:42.259
 and so I'm

00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:44.139
 willing to get

00:23:44.139 --> 00:23:44.879
 people's wrong

00:23:44.879 --> 00:23:45.819
 views of St. Francis

00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:46.200
 right.

00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.639
 Why wasn't

00:23:53.639 --> 00:23:54.519
 Lutheranism able to

00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:55.420
 be channeled in

00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:55.839
 that way?

00:23:56.420 --> 00:23:56.980
 Oh yeah, sure.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:57.779
 It sort of made

00:23:57.779 --> 00:23:58.579
 its own little thing

00:23:58.579 --> 00:23:59.279
 within the broader

00:23:59.279 --> 00:23:59.579
 tent.

00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:01.259
 Yes, because

00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:02.099
 Luther was German.

00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:02.539
 Yes.

00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:02.599
 Yes.

00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:02.660
 Yes.

00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:02.720
 Yes.

00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:03.160
 Yes.

00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:03.220
 Yes.

00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:03.240
 Yes.

00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:03.259
 Yes.

00:24:03.259 --> 00:24:03.319
 Yes.

00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:03.379
 Yes.

00:24:03.379 --> 00:24:03.399
 Yes.

00:24:03.399 --> 00:24:03.420
 Yes.

00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:03.460
 Yes.

00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:03.500
 Yes.

00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:03.960
 Yes.

00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:04.500
 Yes.

00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:04.539
 Yes.

00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:05.000
 Yes.

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:05.460
 Yes.

00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:05.500
 Yes.

00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:06.259
 Yes.

00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:07.259
 Yes.

00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:07.759
 Yes.

00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.299
 So Luther did

00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:12.859
 not live in central

00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:13.220
 Italy.

00:24:13.879 --> 00:24:14.779
 He lived in Germany,

00:24:14.779 --> 00:24:17.019
 had protection from

00:24:17.019 --> 00:24:18.019
 his prince.

00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:20.259
 His prince was able

00:24:20.259 --> 00:24:22.119
 to deflect to some

00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:23.019
 degree criticism.

00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:24.160
 Although Luther was

00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:25.539
 still not allowed to

00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:26.759
 travel outside Saxony

00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:27.980
 so he was limited

00:24:27.980 --> 00:24:28.779
 into where he could

00:24:28.779 --> 00:24:30.480
 go actually and he

00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:31.339
 resented that

00:24:31.339 --> 00:24:33.359
 massively because it

00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:34.079
 was the young guys

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:34.640
 who were getting all

00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:35.360
 the glory and not

00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:36.080
 him and he hated

00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:36.480
 that.

00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:38.540
 But so he was

00:24:38.540 --> 00:24:39.340
 kind of constricted

00:24:39.340 --> 00:24:40.580
 but he wasn't

00:24:40.580 --> 00:24:41.240
 he wasn't

00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:42.540
 burned.

00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:44.720
 You mentioned

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:45.380
 at one point

00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:45.920
 you said this

00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:46.980
 talking about

00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:47.620
 in the West

00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:48.200
 this was happening.

00:24:48.280 --> 00:24:49.000
 What's in the East?

00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:49.860
 Are they developing

00:24:49.860 --> 00:24:51.000
 in the same fashion

00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:51.880
 looking at the

00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:52.960
 Eastern Church?

00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:54.920
 Is the East

00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:55.560
 looking

00:24:55.560 --> 00:24:56.920
 and investigating

00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:57.960
 the same issues

00:24:57.960 --> 00:24:58.540
 and coming

00:24:58.540 --> 00:25:00.440
 in the same trajectory

00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:01.460
 or was it a

00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:02.340
 different experience?

00:25:02.600 --> 00:25:03.360
 Yes, thank you.

00:25:03.620 --> 00:25:04.160
 No, it was quite

00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:05.220
 a different experience

00:25:05.220 --> 00:25:07.200
 because the

00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.620
 Eastern Greek

00:25:08.620 --> 00:25:09.920
 speaking church

00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:11.240
 and the Western

00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:12.299
 Latin speaking

00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.039
 church had been

00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:14.660
 growing apart

00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:15.160
 for hundreds

00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:15.539
 and hundreds

00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:16.019
 of years

00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:16.460
 and that

00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:18.660
 movement apart

00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:20.320
 was formalised

00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:21.580
 in 1054

00:25:21.580 --> 00:25:22.279
 in the Great

00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:22.600
 Schism.

00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:25.380
 So they're

00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:26.720
 pretty different

00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:27.840
 worlds at this

00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:28.299
 stage.

00:25:28.299 --> 00:25:30.619
 But are there

00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:31.279
 theological

00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:32.779
 issues still

00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:33.399
 centred on

00:25:33.399 --> 00:25:33.720
 grace?

00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:34.079
 Are there

00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:34.680
 completely

00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:35.180
 different

00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:36.119
 things they're

00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.980
 pondering in

00:25:36.980 --> 00:25:37.559
 that church

00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:38.480
 versus the West?

00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:39.379
 Yes, thank you.

00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:40.399
 Today you mean

00:25:40.399 --> 00:25:41.119
 or in this period?

00:25:41.139 --> 00:25:41.700
 In this period.

00:25:41.919 --> 00:25:42.539
 Yeah, sure.

00:25:42.919 --> 00:25:43.680
 I'm probably not

00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:45.079
 qualified to speak

00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:46.200
 about the

00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:46.859
 16th century

00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:47.559
 Greek church

00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:48.879
 but they did

00:25:48.879 --> 00:25:49.440
 have a different

00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.099
 view of the

00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:52.259
 spirit so that

00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:53.240
 probably did open

00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:53.940
 them to having

00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:54.759
 slightly different

00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:55.720
 nuanced views of

00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:56.139
 grace.

00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:01.440
 So we know

00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:02.659
 why Lutheranism

00:26:02.659 --> 00:26:03.700
 wasn't contained

00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:05.019
 on the other

00:26:05.019 --> 00:26:05.879
 side of the

00:26:05.879 --> 00:26:06.299
 spectrum.

00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:06.980
 Why wasn't

00:26:06.980 --> 00:26:08.399
 the Cathari and

00:26:08.399 --> 00:26:09.220
 the Adelgensi

00:26:09.220 --> 00:26:09.960
 contained?

00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.019
 You mean they

00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:12.559
 were contained,

00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:12.859
 right?

00:26:13.339 --> 00:26:15.099
 Why were they

00:26:15.099 --> 00:26:16.940
 absorbed?

00:26:17.419 --> 00:26:17.740
 Yes.

00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:18.779
 Yes, I see.

00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:18.960
 Sure.

00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:19.319
 Thank you.

00:26:19.379 --> 00:26:19.700
 Thank you.

00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:20.619
 So there were

00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:21.839
 some groups in

00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:22.559
 the south of

00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:23.740
 France who

00:26:23.740 --> 00:26:24.940
 were regarded

00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:25.619
 as heretical

00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:27.959
 and they

00:26:27.959 --> 00:26:28.639
 were chiefly

00:26:28.639 --> 00:26:29.359
 regarded as

00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:29.879
 schismatic,

00:26:30.199 --> 00:26:31.139
 ultimately heretical

00:26:31.139 --> 00:26:32.379
 because they

00:26:32.379 --> 00:26:33.579
 were refusing

00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:35.439
 the Pope's

00:26:35.439 --> 00:26:36.079
 authority.

00:26:37.179 --> 00:26:38.019
 Francis never

00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:38.579
 did that.

00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:40.459
 Francis looked

00:26:40.459 --> 00:26:41.779
 for the Pope's

00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:42.159
 authority.

00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:43.699
 He submitted

00:26:43.699 --> 00:26:44.259
 to the Pope's

00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:44.699
 authority.

00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:45.399
 He wanted to

00:26:45.399 --> 00:26:46.259
 further the Pope's

00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:46.599
 authority.

00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:48.759
 So Francis

00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:49.319
 was a man of

00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:49.779
 the church.

00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:52.180
 he was pushing

00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:53.279
 that the church

00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.139
 should rethink

00:26:55.139 --> 00:26:55.899
 its wealth,

00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:58.299
 but he

00:26:58.299 --> 00:26:59.119
 nonetheless was

00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:01.220
 not a

00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:01.759
 revolutionary

00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:03.059
 like the

00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:03.619
 Cathari and

00:27:03.619 --> 00:27:04.680
 the Adelgensians

00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:05.079
 were.

00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:07.339
 In fact,

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:08.099
 the Pope,

00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:09.359
 Francis lived

00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:09.720
 at the same

00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:10.160
 time as the

00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:10.579
 other groups,

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:11.519
 and the Pope

00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:12.160
 liked Francis

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:12.799
 because he

00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:13.119
 was saying,

00:27:13.220 --> 00:27:13.740
 look, here's

00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.319
 a guy who

00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:14.720
 can want to

00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:15.240
 reform the

00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:16.279
 church and

00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:16.799
 he's loyal

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.319
 to me.

00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:18.740
 So Francis

00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:19.879
 was the

00:27:19.879 --> 00:27:21.539
 example opposite

00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:22.419
 at the very

00:27:22.419 --> 00:27:23.220
 same moment

00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:26.099
 the Cathari

00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:26.799
 and the

00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.419
 Albigensians

00:27:27.419 --> 00:27:27.720
 in the

00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.059
 south of

00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:28.460
 France.

00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.240
 Rob?

00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:34.480
 Just with

00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:35.839
 that statement

00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:36.220
 you just

00:27:36.220 --> 00:27:36.460
 made,

00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:37.000
 you implied

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:37.279
 that there

00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:37.619
 might be

00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:37.799
 a little

00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:38.399
 politics

00:27:38.399 --> 00:27:38.839
 involved.

00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:39.579
 Who would

00:27:39.579 --> 00:27:39.939
 have thought?

00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:40.399
 Who would

00:27:40.399 --> 00:27:40.759
 have thought?

00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:43.419
 And then

00:27:43.419 --> 00:27:44.039
 to go back

00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:44.500
 to the theme

00:27:44.500 --> 00:27:44.819
 you just

00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:45.119
 mentioned

00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.859
 earlier about

00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:48.379
 returning back

00:27:48.379 --> 00:27:48.619
 to the

00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:49.679
 original theme

00:27:49.679 --> 00:27:50.339
 of Paul

00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:51.859
 and Augustine

00:27:51.859 --> 00:27:52.279
 and all of

00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:52.679
 these things,

00:27:53.979 --> 00:27:55.479
 we kind of

00:27:55.479 --> 00:27:55.899
 used the

00:27:55.899 --> 00:27:56.479
 Holy Spirit

00:27:56.479 --> 00:27:57.139
 to bring us

00:27:57.139 --> 00:27:57.459
 to that

00:27:57.459 --> 00:27:58.699
 place and

00:27:58.699 --> 00:27:59.199
 to bring us

00:27:59.199 --> 00:27:59.459
 to the

00:27:59.459 --> 00:27:59.799
 present.

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:01.139
 Is that a

00:28:01.139 --> 00:28:01.839
 fair assumption

00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:02.839
 that it's

00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.439
 we're getting

00:28:04.439 --> 00:28:04.919
 back to the

00:28:04.919 --> 00:28:05.259
 core?

00:28:05.419 --> 00:28:05.779
 We need to

00:28:05.779 --> 00:28:06.159
 get back to

00:28:06.159 --> 00:28:06.599
 the core

00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:07.119
 issues.

00:28:07.959 --> 00:28:08.339
 And that's

00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:08.659
 where it

00:28:08.659 --> 00:28:09.599
 separates the

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:10.819
 reformed from

00:28:10.819 --> 00:28:11.819
 the true

00:28:11.819 --> 00:28:13.199
 Catholic Italian

00:28:13.199 --> 00:28:13.679
 church.

00:28:14.179 --> 00:28:14.959
 So it's

00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:15.380
 kind of an

00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:16.019
 odd question

00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:17.200
 but I

00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:18.220
 don't know

00:28:18.220 --> 00:28:18.420
 if I'm

00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.779
 getting my

00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:19.600
 idea across

00:28:19.600 --> 00:28:20.980
 of how

00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:22.079
 the Spirit

00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:22.600
 is now

00:28:22.600 --> 00:28:24.039
 leading more

00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:24.720
 in these

00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:25.440
 reformers'

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.440
 thoughts.

00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:27.880
 Yes,

00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:29.380
 so I

00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:29.980
 assume that

00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:30.700
 the Spirit's

00:28:30.700 --> 00:28:31.319
 always at

00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:31.819
 work amongst

00:28:31.819 --> 00:28:32.240
 Christians.

00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:33.279
 That is,

00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:33.819
 that there's

00:28:33.819 --> 00:28:34.880
 no moment

00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.200
 when the

00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:35.680
 Spirit gives

00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:36.220
 up on us.

00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:39.160
 So it

00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:39.600
 is true

00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:40.000
 though that

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.620
 Calvin wrote

00:28:41.620 --> 00:28:42.380
 a lot about

00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:42.940
 the Spirit

00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:44.200
 and that's

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:44.940
 Calvin's

00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:45.840
 way of

00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:46.400
 writing a lot

00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:47.120
 about grace.

00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:48.980
 My assumption

00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:49.799
 is that grace

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:51.299
 is the personal

00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:51.940
 presence of the

00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:52.120
 Lord.

00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:53.660
 A gift to

00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:53.920
 you.

00:28:54.120 --> 00:28:54.759
 God gives,

00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:55.900
 not just gives

00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:56.440
 this other

00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:57.279
 thing to you,

00:28:57.500 --> 00:28:57.960
 he gives

00:28:57.960 --> 00:28:58.880
 himself to

00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.180
 you,

00:28:59.460 --> 00:28:59.799
 he gives

00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:00.440
 himself to

00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:00.640
 us.

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:01.500
 That's grace,

00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:02.940
 God's personal

00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:04.140
 presence to

00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:04.660
 us.

00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:05.680
 And how

00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.240
 does God

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.340
 give to us

00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:08.000
 his personal

00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:08.380
 presence?

00:29:08.840 --> 00:29:09.480
 Well, it's

00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:10.160
 from the Lord

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:10.900
 Jesus, the Lord

00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:11.779
 Jesus by his

00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:12.160
 Spirit.

00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:13.539
 So,

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.799
 implicit in

00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:16.820
 the Reformation's

00:29:16.820 --> 00:29:17.779
 conversations about

00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:19.700
 grace is a

00:29:19.700 --> 00:29:20.320
 belief, a

00:29:20.320 --> 00:29:21.160
 commitment to

00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:22.200
 the doctrine of

00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:22.640
 the Spirit.

00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:23.640
 Calvin writes

00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:24.140
 about a lot,

00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:24.799
 Luther,

00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:25.180
 Lesto,

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:28.220
 but still,

00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:29.620
 in a sense,

00:29:30.340 --> 00:29:31.779
 the understand,

00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:32.380
 description,

00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.539
 conversation of

00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:33.860
 the Spirit

00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:34.740
 probably awaits

00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:35.460
 the Great

00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:36.200
 Awakening a

00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:36.519
 couple of

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:37.059
 hundred years

00:29:37.059 --> 00:29:37.559
 after this

00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:37.799
 moment.

00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:39.920
 Thank you.

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:47.380
 Well, let's

00:29:47.380 --> 00:29:47.759
 look at the

00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:48.340
 third column

00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:48.660
 then.

00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:51.320
 I would have

00:29:51.320 --> 00:29:51.559
 thought,

00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:53.380
 2,000 years

00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:53.820
 in the first

00:29:53.820 --> 00:29:54.660
 25 minutes.

00:29:54.660 --> 00:30:02.759
 The Reformers

00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.840
 talked up the

00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:06.540
 doctrines of

00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:07.800
 grace and

00:30:07.800 --> 00:30:09.380
 therefore the

00:30:09.380 --> 00:30:09.940
 doctrine of the

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:10.120
 church.

00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:10.540
 What's the

00:30:10.540 --> 00:30:11.140
 church for?

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:12.320
 If this is what

00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:13.460
 grace is, what's

00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:14.560
 the church had to

00:30:14.560 --> 00:30:15.420
 look like to do

00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:16.340
 to prosper that

00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:17.040
 view of grace?

00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:17.279
 stone.

00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.859
 They summarised

00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:21.119
 their beliefs,

00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:21.680
 they had lots

00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.119
 of them of

00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:23.059
 course, but we

00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:24.359
 might sloganise

00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:25.119
 them in Christ

00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:27.839
 for us, and

00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:28.480
 they wrote down

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.559
 their views

00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:31.799
 slightly different

00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:32.920
 from different

00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.500
 denominations in

00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:35.259
 confessions of

00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:35.779
 the faith.

00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:37.319
 Confessions

00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.000
 aren't meant to

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:38.440
 be held

00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:39.519
 universally by

00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:40.159
 all Christians.

00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:41.859
 Confessions

00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:42.519
 are written for

00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:42.980
 particular

00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:44.000
 denominations.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.579
 And if you

00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:47.339
 believe or

00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:47.980
 agree with one

00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:48.279
 of those

00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:48.880
 confessions of

00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.619
 faith, you

00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:50.160
 can describe

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:50.839
 yourself as a

00:30:50.839 --> 00:30:51.119
 Reformed

00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:51.960
 Christian or

00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:52.880
 an Anabaptist

00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:53.440
 Christian or

00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:53.859
 an Anglican

00:30:53.859 --> 00:30:54.200
 Christian or

00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:54.380
 something.

00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:56.700
 The assumption

00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:57.420
 still was a

00:30:57.420 --> 00:30:57.980
 church estate

00:30:57.980 --> 00:30:58.779
 working together

00:30:58.779 --> 00:30:59.619
 for the common

00:30:59.619 --> 00:30:59.960
 good.

00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:02.099
 But given

00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:04.519
 that, 200

00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:05.859
 years later,

00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:07.420
 Protestant

00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:09.400
 churches were

00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:09.779
 dead.

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:12.099
 Protestant

00:31:12.099 --> 00:31:13.500
 churches lacked

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:13.940
 life.

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:14.420
 You can be

00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:15.140
 entirely

00:31:15.140 --> 00:31:17.019
 Protestant and

00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:18.039
 entirely dead.

00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:20.420
 This was

00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:21.299
 blowing people's

00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:21.740
 minds.

00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:23.660
 They believed

00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:24.440
 that Christ is

00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:25.279
 for us.

00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:27.779
 They believed

00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:28.140
 that the

00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:29.119
 church's job

00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.900
 was to present

00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:32.380
 the gift of

00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:33.599
 Christ, Christ's

00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:34.440
 personal presence

00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:35.000
 to the world.

00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:36.700
 But still, this

00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:37.980
 did not lead,

00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:39.019
 in many quarters,

00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:41.380
 to a vibrant,

00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:42.900
 personal,

00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:44.040
 piety.

00:31:45.580 --> 00:31:46.620
 You can talk

00:31:46.620 --> 00:31:47.200
 about a

00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:47.759
 close walk

00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:48.060
 with the

00:31:48.060 --> 00:31:48.700
 Lord, but

00:31:48.700 --> 00:31:49.000
 that doesn't

00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:49.280
 mean you

00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:49.519
 have a

00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:50.019
 close walk

00:31:50.019 --> 00:31:50.320
 with the

00:31:50.320 --> 00:31:50.540
 Lord,

00:31:50.600 --> 00:31:50.820
 right?

00:31:53.060 --> 00:31:53.940
 So, in

00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:54.680
 this period,

00:31:54.800 --> 00:31:55.320
 the 18th

00:31:55.320 --> 00:31:55.720
 century,

00:31:55.860 --> 00:31:56.140
 beginning,

00:31:56.259 --> 00:31:56.660
 perhaps all

00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:57.320
 before as

00:31:57.320 --> 00:31:57.600
 well,

00:31:58.540 --> 00:31:58.900
 Christians

00:31:58.900 --> 00:31:59.800
 started talking

00:31:59.800 --> 00:32:00.700
 more about

00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:01.620
 the doctrine

00:32:01.620 --> 00:32:02.000
 of the

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.320
 Spirit and

00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:05.860
 being driven

00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:07.179
 by the

00:32:07.179 --> 00:32:08.500
 Spirit into

00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:09.039
 mission.

00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:11.879
 They agreed

00:32:11.879 --> 00:32:12.619
 with the

00:32:12.619 --> 00:32:13.099
 stuff the

00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:13.740
 early church

00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:14.419
 had spoken

00:32:14.419 --> 00:32:15.019
 about in

00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:15.399
 terms of

00:32:15.399 --> 00:32:15.759
 the doctrine

00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:16.000
 of the

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.559
 Trinity and

00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:17.339
 the nature

00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:18.179
 of Christ.

00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:18.619
 Of course,

00:32:18.699 --> 00:32:19.000
 they agreed

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:19.299
 with that.

00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:19.919
 And they

00:32:19.919 --> 00:32:20.539
 agreed with

00:32:20.539 --> 00:32:21.279
 the Protestant

00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:21.979
 Reformers about

00:32:21.979 --> 00:32:22.599
 the nature of

00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:23.099
 grace and the

00:32:23.099 --> 00:32:23.579
 nature of the

00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:23.759
 church.

00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:24.479
 But they

00:32:24.479 --> 00:32:25.500
 needed, as

00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:25.959
 it were,

00:32:26.419 --> 00:32:27.839
 another layer

00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:29.059
 or level on

00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:29.819
 top of those

00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:30.879
 two earlier

00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.520
 levels to

00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.100
 specify, to

00:32:36.100 --> 00:32:37.700
 clarify a

00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:39.120
 smaller number

00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:40.520
 of doctrinal

00:32:40.520 --> 00:32:42.060
 confusions.

00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:44.080
 So, these

00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:45.100
 Christians of

00:32:45.100 --> 00:32:45.700
 the 18th

00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:46.180
 century, we

00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:46.800
 might call

00:32:46.800 --> 00:32:48.240
 them the

00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:49.020
 revivalists or

00:32:49.020 --> 00:32:49.340
 something,

00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:51.420
 started preaching

00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:53.800
 heavy-handedly

00:32:53.800 --> 00:32:55.000
 the doctrine

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:55.900
 of regeneration

00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:57.960
 or Christ

00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.840
 in us.

00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:02.660
 they believed,

00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:03.140
 of course,

00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:03.620
 with the early

00:33:03.620 --> 00:33:04.240
 church that

00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:04.940
 Christ is with

00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:05.320
 us.

00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:06.580
 And of course,

00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:07.260
 they believed

00:33:07.260 --> 00:33:07.920
 with the

00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:08.560
 Reformation

00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:09.840
 leaders that

00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:10.440
 Christ in

00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:11.020
 his death and

00:33:11.020 --> 00:33:11.640
 resurrection is

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:12.400
 for us.

00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:13.120
 They just

00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:13.660
 believed that

00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:14.300
 we needed to,

00:33:14.360 --> 00:33:14.960
 we'd lost,

00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:15.900
 we need to

00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:16.720
 remind ourselves,

00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:17.220
 we need to

00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:17.920
 focus again on

00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:18.320
 what it means

00:33:18.320 --> 00:33:18.800
 that Christ

00:33:18.800 --> 00:33:20.500
 can be in

00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:21.320
 us.

00:33:22.800 --> 00:33:23.680
 A healthy

00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:24.180
 directive.

00:33:25.280 --> 00:33:26.240
 It's unhealthy

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:27.320
 if you've

00:33:27.320 --> 00:33:27.920
 forgotten that

00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:28.600
 Christ is with

00:33:28.600 --> 00:33:29.380
 us and that

00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:30.120
 Christ is for

00:33:30.120 --> 00:33:30.540
 us.

00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:31.960
 That can be a

00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:32.820
 very unhealthy

00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:33.300
 kind of

00:33:33.300 --> 00:33:33.740
 Christianity.

00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:35.060
 But Christ

00:33:35.060 --> 00:33:36.460
 in us, when

00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:37.160
 it assumes

00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:38.220
 Christ with

00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:38.580
 us and

00:33:38.580 --> 00:33:39.000
 Christ for

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:39.400
 us, can

00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:39.760
 be a very

00:33:39.760 --> 00:33:40.580
 healthy kind

00:33:40.580 --> 00:33:41.260
 of Christianity.

00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:42.140
 It becomes

00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:43.280
 a renewal

00:33:43.280 --> 00:33:44.680
 movement within

00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:45.500
 the Protestant

00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:46.220
 churches.

00:33:48.120 --> 00:33:50.360
 The folk who

00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:51.160
 might have been

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:51.720
 leading the

00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:52.780
 evangelical revival,

00:33:53.040 --> 00:33:53.840
 people whose

00:33:53.840 --> 00:33:54.340
 names you might

00:33:54.340 --> 00:33:54.880
 have heard of,

00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:55.560
 John Wesley,

00:33:56.080 --> 00:33:56.320
 George

00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:56.760
 Whitfield,

00:33:56.900 --> 00:33:57.600
 John Edwards,

00:33:57.599 --> 00:33:58.599
 Christians,

00:33:58.599 --> 00:33:58.939
 and so on.

00:34:00.459 --> 00:34:01.079
 When they

00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:01.559
 wanted to

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:02.859
 capture, to

00:34:02.859 --> 00:34:03.779
 summarize, to

00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:04.959
 defend this

00:34:04.959 --> 00:34:05.519
 new belief, they

00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:06.359
 did not write

00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:08.019
 more creeds.

00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:09.259
 We had enough

00:34:09.259 --> 00:34:09.639
 of them.

00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:10.500
 They did their

00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:10.860
 job.

00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:11.639
 They helped us

00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:12.199
 understand that

00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:13.119
 Christ is with

00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:13.400
 us.

00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:15.000
 Nor did they

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.400
 write confessions

00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.139
 of faith,

00:34:17.839 --> 00:34:18.819
 describing grace

00:34:18.819 --> 00:34:19.279
 in the church.

00:34:19.339 --> 00:34:20.059
 They had no

00:34:20.059 --> 00:34:21.819
 real issue with

00:34:21.819 --> 00:34:23.019
 the way the

00:34:23.019 --> 00:34:23.839
 Protestant churches

00:34:23.839 --> 00:34:24.539
 had defined

00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:25.299
 grace or the

00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:25.740
 church.

00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:26.900
 Now, they

00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:27.440
 decided if you

00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:29.580
 want to highlight

00:34:29.580 --> 00:34:31.440
 the close

00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.360
 presence of the

00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:33.840
 Lord, if you

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:34.680
 want to highlight

00:34:34.680 --> 00:34:36.920
 Christ being in

00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:38.340
 us, then you

00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:39.340
 need to actually

00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:42.140
 sing songs and

00:34:42.140 --> 00:34:43.180
 write letters.

00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:45.300
 Those were the

00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:46.519
 chief strategies

00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:47.460
 that the

00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:48.820
 revivalists used

00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:51.039
 to defend this

00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.360
 close walk with

00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:52.820
 the Lord.

00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:54.500
 If you want to

00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:54.940
 defend the

00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:55.539
 close walk with

00:34:55.539 --> 00:34:55.900
 the Lord,

00:34:56.200 --> 00:34:56.599
 why don't you

00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:57.579
 use emotions and

00:34:57.579 --> 00:34:58.619
 sing songs and

00:34:58.619 --> 00:34:59.440
 talk about your

00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:00.159
 close walk with

00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:00.519
 the Lord?

00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:02.480
 It's much more

00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:03.119
 difficult to

00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:04.599
 defend and promote

00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:05.539
 a close walk with

00:35:05.539 --> 00:35:06.440
 the Lord if you

00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:07.079
 decide you've got

00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:08.200
 to write a 75

00:35:08.200 --> 00:35:09.599
 chapter confession

00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:10.059
 of faith.

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:13.900
 And of course,

00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:17.019
 we still know

00:35:17.019 --> 00:35:18.220
 and sing some

00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:19.380
 Wesley hymns or

00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:20.720
 hymns by Isaac

00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:21.139
 Watts.

00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.039
 They're glorious,

00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.380
 and I hope that

00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:26.440
 the church in the

00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:28.300
 West continues to

00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:28.719
 sing them.

00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:30.460
 But the

00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:30.779
 evangelical

00:35:30.779 --> 00:35:31.639
 revivals also

00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:32.759
 were great letter

00:35:32.759 --> 00:35:33.179
 writers.

00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:33.840
 And this is a

00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:34.880
 period which

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.179
 common people

00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:37.500
 could write

00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:37.880
 letters.

00:35:39.019 --> 00:35:39.679
 Formerly, there

00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:40.039
 had always been

00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:40.599
 letters, right,

00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:41.579
 written by generals

00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:42.639
 or diplomats or

00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:43.440
 monarchs.

00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:44.159
 But now,

00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:45.239
 common people,

00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:45.840
 if you will,

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:46.900
 could write

00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:48.779
 letters from my

00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:50.120
 heart to your

00:35:50.120 --> 00:35:52.240
 heart and

00:35:52.240 --> 00:35:53.500
 encourage you

00:35:53.500 --> 00:35:54.660
 in your own

00:35:54.660 --> 00:35:55.540
 personal walk

00:35:55.540 --> 00:35:56.220
 with the Lord,

00:35:57.120 --> 00:35:57.820
 individually,

00:35:58.420 --> 00:35:59.180
 specifically.

00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:01.760
 John Newton,

00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:02.620
 the converted

00:36:02.620 --> 00:36:03.400
 slave trader,

00:36:03.740 --> 00:36:04.720
 was a magnificent

00:36:04.720 --> 00:36:05.540
 correspondent.

00:36:06.660 --> 00:36:07.340
 If you ever get a

00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:07.840
 chance to read

00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:08.460
 Newton's letters,

00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:09.680
 you'll be amply

00:36:09.680 --> 00:36:10.200
 rewarded.

00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:10.840
 They're just

00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:13.120
 beautiful pieces

00:36:13.120 --> 00:36:14.620
 describing soul

00:36:14.620 --> 00:36:15.260
 concerns.

00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:17.440
 In these days,

00:36:17.560 --> 00:36:18.940
 well, this is

00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:19.460
 how the postal

00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:20.260
 service worked

00:36:20.260 --> 00:36:21.680
 in the American

00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:22.120
 colonies.

00:36:22.340 --> 00:36:22.840
 You could write

00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.000
 a letter and

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:25.780
 you'd take it to

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:26.980
 the postman who

00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:27.640
 delivered it.

00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:28.660
 And the person

00:36:28.660 --> 00:36:29.500
 receiving the

00:36:29.500 --> 00:36:30.460
 letter had to

00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:31.040
 pay for the

00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:31.320
 stamp.

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:33.320
 So they

00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:34.760
 realised that

00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:35.320
 wasn't going to

00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:35.880
 work, so they

00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:36.560
 flipped it, right?

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:38.040
 The person

00:36:38.040 --> 00:36:38.500
 sending the

00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:38.940
 letter had to

00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:39.620
 buy the stamp.

00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:42.260
 Now, of

00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:42.540
 course, the

00:36:42.540 --> 00:36:43.100
 Boston Post

00:36:43.100 --> 00:36:43.520
 Road, not

00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:44.140
 very far from

00:36:44.140 --> 00:36:44.660
 here, was a

00:36:44.660 --> 00:36:44.960
 great,

00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:46.300
 viaduct for

00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:46.860
 letter writing

00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.640
 in the

00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:48.140
 American

00:36:48.140 --> 00:36:48.640
 colonies.

00:36:49.340 --> 00:36:50.100
 Now, if you

00:36:50.100 --> 00:36:51.380
 agree with a

00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:52.100
 Charles Wesley

00:36:52.100 --> 00:36:52.760
 hymn, or if

00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:53.220
 you read

00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:53.700
 John Newton's

00:36:53.700 --> 00:36:54.080
 letters and

00:36:54.080 --> 00:36:54.420
 you think,

00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.200
 yeah, that's

00:36:55.200 --> 00:36:56.520
 my understanding

00:36:56.520 --> 00:36:58.180
 of a walk

00:36:58.180 --> 00:36:58.460
 with the

00:36:58.460 --> 00:36:59.300
 Lord, you

00:36:59.300 --> 00:36:59.800
 can describe

00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:00.440
 yourself as

00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:00.920
 an evangelical

00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:01.400
 Christian.

00:37:02.660 --> 00:37:03.320
 So, personally,

00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:04.020
 I'm an Orthodox

00:37:04.020 --> 00:37:05.200
 Christian, as I

00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:05.640
 can say the

00:37:05.640 --> 00:37:06.000
 creeds.

00:37:06.700 --> 00:37:07.640
 I'm an

00:37:07.640 --> 00:37:08.200
 Anglican, or

00:37:08.200 --> 00:37:08.780
 I'm a

00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:09.280
 Reformed

00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.200
 Protestant

00:37:10.200 --> 00:37:11.700
 Christian, and

00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:12.000
 I'm an

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:12.320
 evangelical

00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:13.060
 Christian, because

00:37:13.060 --> 00:37:14.280
 I believe that

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.140
 you need to

00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:16.599
 work hard to

00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:18.019
 promote and

00:37:18.019 --> 00:37:19.339
 encourage and

00:37:19.339 --> 00:37:20.059
 defend a

00:37:20.059 --> 00:37:21.019
 personal walk

00:37:21.019 --> 00:37:21.420
 with the

00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:21.679
 Lord.

00:37:23.019 --> 00:37:23.699
 I understand

00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:24.019
 that this

00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:24.420
 word is

00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:25.679
 highly contested,

00:37:26.059 --> 00:37:27.699
 and in

00:37:27.699 --> 00:37:28.019
 American

00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:28.839
 politics more

00:37:28.839 --> 00:37:29.440
 than perhaps

00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:30.139
 where I'm

00:37:30.139 --> 00:37:30.420
 from.

00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:32.739
 But as

00:37:32.739 --> 00:37:33.599
 an historical

00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.079
 term, I

00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:35.420
 think it's

00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:35.920
 worth defending.

00:37:36.019 --> 00:37:36.379
 We give it

00:37:36.379 --> 00:37:36.719
 up, that's

00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:37.119
 okay, you

00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:37.480
 don't have to

00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:37.779
 use the

00:37:37.779 --> 00:37:37.900
 word.

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:38.199
 But what

00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:38.719
 other word

00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:38.879
 are you

00:37:38.879 --> 00:37:39.079
 going to

00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:39.879
 use to

00:37:39.879 --> 00:37:41.339
 describe the

00:37:41.339 --> 00:37:42.159
 distinctions of

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:42.559
 the 18th

00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:42.799
 century

00:37:42.799 --> 00:37:43.659
 revivals and

00:37:43.659 --> 00:37:44.299
 their defense

00:37:44.299 --> 00:37:44.920
 of a personal

00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:45.799
 experience of

00:37:45.799 --> 00:37:46.480
 the Lord's

00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:46.859
 work, right?

00:37:46.899 --> 00:37:47.179
 You've got to

00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:47.759
 find, that's a

00:37:47.759 --> 00:37:48.379
 long mouthful.

00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:49.899
 I think I'm

00:37:49.899 --> 00:37:50.199
 going to stick

00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:50.599
 with the word

00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:51.039
 evangelical.

00:37:52.379 --> 00:37:52.819
 But this is

00:37:52.819 --> 00:37:53.299
 also a weird

00:37:53.299 --> 00:37:53.899
 period because

00:37:53.899 --> 00:37:54.659
 at this point,

00:37:55.379 --> 00:37:56.059
 the church and

00:37:56.059 --> 00:37:57.539
 state are now

00:37:57.539 --> 00:38:00.039
 moving apart.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:01.599
 Christendom is

00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.059
 no longer

00:38:02.059 --> 00:38:02.739
 assumed.

00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:03.299
 The American

00:38:03.299 --> 00:38:03.920
 Revolution, the

00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:04.579
 French Revolution

00:38:04.579 --> 00:38:05.819
 see to it that

00:38:05.819 --> 00:38:07.219
 church and state

00:38:07.219 --> 00:38:08.659
 no longer work

00:38:08.659 --> 00:38:10.319
 together for

00:38:10.319 --> 00:38:10.799
 the common

00:38:10.799 --> 00:38:11.179
 good.

00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.659
 And that does

00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:13.480
 free Christians

00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:14.239
 to some degree

00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.179
 to think again

00:38:16.179 --> 00:38:16.559
 about the

00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:17.079
 spirit and

00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:18.279
 mission and

00:38:18.279 --> 00:38:19.059
 what it means

00:38:19.059 --> 00:38:19.699
 to represent

00:38:19.699 --> 00:38:20.859
 the Lord,

00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:21.619
 what it means

00:38:21.619 --> 00:38:22.359
 to encourage

00:38:22.359 --> 00:38:23.480
 a personal

00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:24.859
 walk with

00:38:24.859 --> 00:38:26.599
 Christ under

00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:27.139
 those new

00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:28.199
 kind of strange

00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.679
 conditions after

00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:31.940
 perhaps 1,200

00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:33.799
 years of

00:38:33.799 --> 00:38:36.559
 church and

00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:36.960
 state working

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:37.599
 together for

00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:38.000
 the common

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:38.359
 good.

00:38:38.659 --> 00:38:40.899
 I think we

00:38:40.899 --> 00:38:41.980
 need to

00:38:41.980 --> 00:38:43.159
 recapture all

00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:44.379
 three moments.

00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.119
 I'm not

00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:47.000
 advocating that

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:47.799
 you choose

00:38:47.799 --> 00:38:48.579
 one of these.

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:50.500
 I'm personally

00:38:50.500 --> 00:38:51.759
 advocating that

00:38:51.759 --> 00:38:52.279
 we commit

00:38:52.279 --> 00:38:53.099
 ourselves to

00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:54.000
 each of

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:54.480
 these.

00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:55.440
 That's

00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:55.799
 sometimes a

00:38:55.799 --> 00:38:56.000
 little bit

00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:56.259
 difficult.

00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:56.779
 That is,

00:38:57.259 --> 00:38:58.259
 there's sometimes

00:38:58.259 --> 00:38:58.699
 some pinch

00:38:58.699 --> 00:38:59.579
 points because

00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:01.019
 you take that

00:39:01.019 --> 00:39:02.079
 reformed view

00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:03.279
 and it might

00:39:03.279 --> 00:39:04.079
 seem to

00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:04.960
 undermine that

00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:05.480
 evangelical

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:06.239
 position or

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:06.759
 you take that

00:39:06.759 --> 00:39:07.179
 evangelical

00:39:07.179 --> 00:39:07.859
 position and

00:39:07.859 --> 00:39:08.440
 it might seem

00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:08.880
 to undermine

00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:09.179
 that

00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:09.679
 creedal

00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:10.380
 commitment.

00:39:10.940 --> 00:39:11.300
 So it's

00:39:11.300 --> 00:39:12.059
 not always

00:39:12.059 --> 00:39:12.740
 an easy

00:39:12.740 --> 00:39:13.579
 ask for me

00:39:13.579 --> 00:39:14.119
 to say

00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:15.059
 why don't

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:15.840
 we aspire

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:16.720
 to capture

00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:17.820
 all three

00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:18.320
 moments.

00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:19.740
 But I think

00:39:19.740 --> 00:39:22.780
 it is the

00:39:22.780 --> 00:39:23.720
 healthiest,

00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:26.099
 most faithful

00:39:26.099 --> 00:39:26.679
 Christian

00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:27.340
 combination.

00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:28.340
 Christian

00:39:28.340 --> 00:39:29.180
 Christian

00:39:29.180 --> 00:39:30.120
 was in

00:39:30.120 --> 00:39:30.960
 Manhattan

00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:31.500
 just before

00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:31.860
 the Second

00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:32.340
 World War

00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:32.720
 at Union

00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:33.180
 Seminary.

00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:35.400
 This was his

00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:36.039
 observation of

00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:36.280
 American

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:36.800
 Christianity.

00:39:37.539 --> 00:39:37.820
 It's

00:39:37.820 --> 00:39:38.840
 Protestantism

00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:40.600
 without the

00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:41.180
 Reformation.

00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:43.380
 What he meant

00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:43.920
 by that was

00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:44.600
 that people

00:39:44.600 --> 00:39:46.019
 were keen

00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:47.460
 to stress

00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:48.420
 your individual

00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:49.440
 right to read

00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:49.920
 the scriptures

00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:50.559
 according to

00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:50.940
 your own

00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:51.300
 light,

00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:51.700
 according to

00:39:51.700 --> 00:39:51.860
 your own

00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:52.260
 conscience.

00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:53.180
 But he

00:39:53.180 --> 00:39:53.900
 thought that

00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:54.320
 American

00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:54.860
 Christianity

00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:56.000
 had lost

00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:56.580
 something of

00:39:56.580 --> 00:39:56.960
 the middle

00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.480
 column.

00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:00.980
 You're in a

00:40:00.980 --> 00:40:01.380
 better position

00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:02.140
 to judge that

00:40:02.140 --> 00:40:03.060
 than I am.

00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:04.040
 But I think

00:40:04.040 --> 00:40:04.540
 it's one of those

00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:05.179
 interesting

00:40:05.179 --> 00:40:06.119
 observations.

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:06.719
 The church I

00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.219
 preached there

00:40:07.219 --> 00:40:08.779
 took a wedding

00:40:08.779 --> 00:40:09.239
 out recently

00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:09.639
 in Melbourne.

00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:10.199
 It's more

00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:10.659
 kind of a

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:11.159
 Pentecostal

00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:11.460
 church.

00:40:12.139 --> 00:40:12.759
 And above

00:40:12.759 --> 00:40:13.619
 the table

00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:14.759
 at the front

00:40:14.759 --> 00:40:15.380
 of the church

00:40:15.380 --> 00:40:16.279
 the slogan

00:40:16.279 --> 00:40:17.320
 was Christ

00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:18.519
 in us.

00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:21.139
 And I'm

00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:22.139
 pretty passionately

00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:22.639
 committed to

00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.599
 Christ in us

00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:25.239
 preaching and

00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:26.019
 experiencing it.

00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:27.440
 My fear in

00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:28.039
 that church

00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:29.279
 was that it

00:40:29.279 --> 00:40:30.579
 was detached

00:40:30.579 --> 00:40:32.659
 from Christ

00:40:32.659 --> 00:40:33.400
 with us

00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:34.559
 or Christ

00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:35.360
 for us

00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.200
 as more

00:40:37.200 --> 00:40:37.619
 extreme

00:40:37.619 --> 00:40:38.280
 Pentecostal

00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:38.900
 churches

00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.960
 might in

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:40.579
 their tradition

00:40:40.579 --> 00:40:42.300
 experience.

00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:44.760
 So some

00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:45.059
 questions?

00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:50.840
 So I

00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:51.780
 realize I'm

00:40:51.780 --> 00:40:52.240
 about to

00:40:52.240 --> 00:40:52.780
 step out

00:40:52.780 --> 00:40:53.280
 of your

00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.660
 area of

00:40:54.660 --> 00:40:55.139
 expertise.

00:40:55.539 --> 00:40:55.900
 But since

00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:56.360
 you already

00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:56.780
 mentioned

00:40:56.780 --> 00:40:57.480
 Pentecostal,

00:40:58.180 --> 00:40:59.440
 in 1901

00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:00.619
 the Azusa

00:41:00.619 --> 00:41:01.760
 Street revival

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:02.760
 was a

00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:03.059
 different

00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:03.579
 sort of

00:41:03.579 --> 00:41:04.179
 revival

00:41:04.179 --> 00:41:04.980
 don't you

00:41:04.980 --> 00:41:05.239
 think?

00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:05.719
 From the

00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:06.579
 one we

00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:06.860
 see in

00:41:06.860 --> 00:41:07.179
 the third

00:41:07.179 --> 00:41:07.619
 column.

00:41:08.619 --> 00:41:09.299
 And so

00:41:09.299 --> 00:41:09.820
 did a

00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:10.159
 new

00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.099
 formative

00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:11.559
 period

00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:12.119
 begin

00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:13.639
 more or

00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:13.900
 less

00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:14.119
 with

00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:14.759
 1901.

00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:15.779
 So I'd

00:41:15.779 --> 00:41:16.380
 argue that

00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:17.279
 Pentecostalism

00:41:17.279 --> 00:41:18.519
 is a

00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:19.279
 subset

00:41:19.279 --> 00:41:20.320
 of the

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:20.599
 third

00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:21.000
 column.

00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:21.699
 Oh.

00:41:22.539 --> 00:41:23.139
 So it

00:41:23.139 --> 00:41:23.880
 has some

00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:24.559
 distinctives

00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:24.679
 movements.

00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.820
 But it's

00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:27.079
 still

00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:28.059
 basically a

00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:28.420
 movement

00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:29.139
 that's

00:41:29.139 --> 00:41:29.699
 trying to

00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:30.420
 defend and

00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:31.820
 promote a

00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:32.579
 close walk

00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:32.900
 with the

00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:33.199
 Lord.

00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:33.739
 An

00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:34.599
 experience

00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:35.579
 of the

00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:35.920
 Lord in

00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:36.099
 your

00:41:36.099 --> 00:41:36.579
 heart.

00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:38.099
 A

00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:38.539
 commitment

00:41:38.539 --> 00:41:39.159
 to

00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.360
 believing

00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:41.940
 that God's

00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:42.920
 power is

00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:44.400
 available to

00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:45.460
 you today.

00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:46.679
 So I

00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:47.299
 think, I'm

00:41:47.299 --> 00:41:47.500
 not a

00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:47.980
 Pentecostal

00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:48.799
 Christian, so

00:41:48.799 --> 00:41:49.480
 I have some

00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:49.940
 theological

00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:50.779
 disagreements,

00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:51.280
 but I

00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:51.920
 still think,

00:41:52.420 --> 00:41:52.840
 as it

00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:53.320
 were, they're

00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:54.019
 our cousins.

00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:56.820
 I often say

00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:57.360
 kissing cousins,

00:41:57.460 --> 00:41:57.680
 but I don't

00:41:57.680 --> 00:41:58.120
 think that's a

00:41:58.120 --> 00:41:58.560
 phrase people

00:41:58.560 --> 00:41:59.120
 use anymore.

00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:01.600
 Perhaps it's

00:42:01.600 --> 00:42:02.120
 not appropriate

00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:02.820
 in church circles.

00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:07.640
 I have lots

00:42:07.640 --> 00:42:08.160
 of Pentecostal

00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:08.560
 students at

00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:09.220
 Ridley, about

00:42:09.220 --> 00:42:09.680
 a third of my

00:42:09.680 --> 00:42:10.040
 students are

00:42:10.040 --> 00:42:10.800
 Pentecostal, so

00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:13.240
 I see them

00:42:13.240 --> 00:42:14.019
 falling within

00:42:14.019 --> 00:42:14.940
 this category.

00:42:18.380 --> 00:42:19.100
 In the

00:42:19.100 --> 00:42:19.900
 post-modern

00:42:19.900 --> 00:42:20.640
 West, the

00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:21.659
 church here

00:42:21.659 --> 00:42:22.179
 in America

00:42:22.179 --> 00:42:25.159
 where we

00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:27.559
 are prone

00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:28.559
 to consumerism

00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:29.739
 and there's

00:42:29.739 --> 00:42:29.920
 so many

00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:30.119
 different

00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:30.719
 options of

00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:31.199
 churches that

00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:31.460
 we can

00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:35.299
 attend, and

00:42:35.299 --> 00:42:36.679
 we reject

00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:37.659
 certain

00:42:37.659 --> 00:42:38.500
 teachings based

00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:38.960
 on our own

00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.440
 individual

00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:39.960
 preferences,

00:42:40.859 --> 00:42:41.039
 and the

00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:41.440
 temptation

00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:42.460
 that comes

00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:43.839
 with inward

00:42:43.839 --> 00:42:45.460
 focus rather

00:42:45.460 --> 00:42:47.159
 than hourly

00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:47.639
 looking to

00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:48.900
 Christ, him

00:42:48.900 --> 00:42:49.299
 being with

00:42:49.299 --> 00:42:49.719
 us, being

00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:50.079
 for us,

00:42:50.139 --> 00:42:50.480
 being in

00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:50.760
 us.

00:42:52.460 --> 00:42:53.059
 Is there

00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:54.240
 like, maybe

00:42:54.240 --> 00:42:54.920
 Bonhoeffer

00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:55.900
 hit a nail

00:42:55.900 --> 00:42:56.059
 on the

00:42:56.059 --> 00:42:56.440
 head, but

00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:56.920
 we've lost

00:42:56.920 --> 00:42:57.280
 the middle

00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:57.940
 column, but

00:42:57.940 --> 00:42:58.480
 are there

00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:00.920
 practices that

00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:02.320
 church can

00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:02.900
 learn from

00:43:02.900 --> 00:43:03.639
 church history

00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:04.599
 to guard

00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:05.300
 against some

00:43:05.300 --> 00:43:05.760
 of the

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.000
 excesses of

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:08.800
 being so

00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:09.579
 inwardly

00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:11.440
 focused rather

00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:12.320
 than being

00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:14.260
 grounded and

00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:15.019
 anchored in

00:43:15.019 --> 00:43:15.900
 the scriptures

00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:16.639
 creatures and

00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:17.920
 creeds.

00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.059
 It's more

00:43:20.059 --> 00:43:20.519
 of like

00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.680
 prognostication

00:43:22.680 --> 00:43:23.360
 and diagnosis

00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:23.900
 of our

00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:24.240
 current

00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:24.660
 moment.

00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:25.340
 Yeah, sure.

00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:26.180
 So your

00:43:26.180 --> 00:43:27.019
 question was,

00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:28.940
 what can

00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:29.760
 we say about

00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:30.440
 curing all

00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:31.059
 the ills of

00:43:31.059 --> 00:43:31.460
 the church?

00:43:31.460 --> 00:43:38.840
 So next

00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:39.860
 week I'm

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:40.199
 back.

00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:41.679
 What I'm

00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:42.219
 doing is

00:43:42.219 --> 00:43:42.860
 looking at the

00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:43.599
 third column

00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:44.980
 and the way

00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:45.659
 the third

00:43:45.659 --> 00:43:47.099
 column has

00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:47.639
 gone through

00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:48.940
 three different

00:43:48.940 --> 00:43:51.099
 moments since

00:43:51.099 --> 00:43:51.840
 the 18th

00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.219
 century.

00:43:52.779 --> 00:43:53.340
 That might

00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:58.160
 give us a

00:43:58.160 --> 00:43:58.600
 few more

00:43:58.600 --> 00:43:59.120
 clues.

00:44:00.100 --> 00:44:00.720
 I think

00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:01.059
 you're right.

00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:01.680
 When people,

00:44:02.019 --> 00:44:02.500
 we can look

00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:03.079
 back and say

00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:03.559
 how dumb

00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:03.960
 they were,

00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:04.320
 why didn't

00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:04.640
 they see

00:44:04.640 --> 00:44:05.019
 that in the

00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:05.240
 scriptures,

00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:05.539
 whatever.

00:44:06.019 --> 00:44:06.460
 My students

00:44:06.460 --> 00:44:06.840
 often say to

00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:08.440
 me, in a

00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:08.900
 hundred years

00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:10.059
 time, what

00:44:10.059 --> 00:44:10.519
 will people

00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:11.660
 look back at

00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:12.720
 us and say?

00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:13.340
 And I think

00:44:13.340 --> 00:44:13.940
 they'll say,

00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:14.860
 how could they

00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:15.980
 be so individualistic?

00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:18.200
 What was

00:44:18.200 --> 00:44:18.620
 going on?

00:44:18.620 --> 00:44:19.059
 What were they

00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:19.440
 smoking?

00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:21.620
 This was their

00:44:21.620 --> 00:44:22.400
 kind of

00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:23.320
 ridiculousness.

00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:24.360
 thinking pattern,

00:44:24.420 --> 00:44:24.600
 right?

00:44:25.680 --> 00:44:26.720
 And we are.

00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:27.480
 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:28.140 --> 00:44:28.760
 How do we,

00:44:29.200 --> 00:44:31.680
 well, we start

00:44:31.680 --> 00:44:32.420
 correcting that

00:44:32.420 --> 00:44:33.820
 by good teaching

00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:34.420
 what the church

00:44:34.420 --> 00:44:36.320
 is for, because

00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:36.860
 the church is

00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:37.340
 one of the best

00:44:37.340 --> 00:44:38.079
 places for

00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:38.780
 unlearning

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:40.480
 individualism and

00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:41.880
 learning how

00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.380
 to be flourishing

00:44:44.380 --> 00:44:45.440
 human beings in

00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:45.900
 community.

00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:47.460
 So perhaps

00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:48.820
 the now ecclesiology

00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:49.440
 gets towards

00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:49.720
 that.

00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:52.640
 Yes, brother?

00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:53.039
 Yes.

00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:55.420
 I have a question

00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:56.500
 about sort of

00:44:56.500 --> 00:44:57.100
 Bonhoeffer's

00:44:57.100 --> 00:44:58.079
 assessment of

00:44:58.079 --> 00:44:59.360
 church in the

00:44:59.360 --> 00:44:59.700
 Americas.

00:45:00.100 --> 00:45:02.320
 Because I believe

00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:03.519
 he also wrote in

00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:04.500
 about some of the

00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:05.039
 churches that he

00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.360
 visited during his

00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:08.180
 time here in New York.

00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:09.840
 And there was one

00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.519
 African-American

00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:11.079
 church that he

00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:11.380
 visited.

00:45:11.640 --> 00:45:13.160
 He wrote about

00:45:13.160 --> 00:45:15.680
 how lovely it was,

00:45:15.820 --> 00:45:17.220
 how the soulfulness,

00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:19.140
 and the singing of

00:45:19.140 --> 00:45:19.640
 the hands,

00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:21.279
 people being moved.

00:45:21.279 --> 00:45:21.960
 And so I think

00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:22.339
 that was something

00:45:22.339 --> 00:45:23.059
 that really inspired

00:45:23.059 --> 00:45:24.420
 him when he had

00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:25.159
 returned to Germany.

00:45:25.279 --> 00:45:25.460
 Yeah.

00:45:25.659 --> 00:45:26.420
 So he visited the

00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:27.059
 Abyssinian Baptist

00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:27.819
 Church in Harlem,

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:28.480
 which is very

00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:29.339
 attended, not very

00:45:29.339 --> 00:45:30.139
 far away from

00:45:30.139 --> 00:45:31.299
 Union Seminary.

00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:32.980
 and he'd never

00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:35.840
 known the kind

00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.180
 of joy in the

00:45:38.180 --> 00:45:40.620
 face of oppression

00:45:40.620 --> 00:45:41.800
 that he saw

00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:42.180
 there.

00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.380
 But notice what

00:45:45.380 --> 00:45:46.060
 he's describing

00:45:46.060 --> 00:45:48.039
 really is their

00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:49.460
 close walk with the

00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:49.800
 Lord.

00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.200
 the way that

00:45:52.200 --> 00:45:52.880
 African-Americans

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:54.280
 who were facing

00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:55.140
 kind of enormous

00:45:55.140 --> 00:45:56.920
 social impediments

00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:58.580
 nonetheless together

00:45:58.580 --> 00:46:01.039
 could see a future

00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:02.720
 for themselves in

00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:03.280
 the United States.

00:46:03.580 --> 00:46:05.380
 So his positive

00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:06.120
 comment is still

00:46:06.120 --> 00:46:07.660
 kind of about their

00:46:07.660 --> 00:46:09.080
 evangelical credentials,

00:46:09.340 --> 00:46:09.580
 right?

00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:12.080
 And you're right,

00:46:12.140 --> 00:46:13.000
 when he went back

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:14.600
 to Germany, he got

00:46:14.600 --> 00:46:15.700
 his seminarians to

00:46:15.700 --> 00:46:18.240
 listen to African-American

00:46:18.240 --> 00:46:19.220
 spirituals.

00:46:19.219 --> 00:46:19.939
 he played on the

00:46:19.939 --> 00:46:21.359
 record player because

00:46:21.359 --> 00:46:23.059
 he was strung to

00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:24.179
 how to help them

00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:26.719
 walk closely with

00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:27.480
 the Lord and their

00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:29.159
 music, he believed,

00:46:29.279 --> 00:46:30.539
 would help his...

00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:31.539
 Well, his basic

00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:33.679
 argument was African-Americans

00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:34.779
 in the United States

00:46:34.779 --> 00:46:35.899
 were learning to

00:46:35.899 --> 00:46:37.139
 resist what they saw

00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:38.699
 as a racist country,

00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:40.679
 and he wanted his

00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:41.879
 seminarians to resist

00:46:41.879 --> 00:46:43.799
 the racism of the

00:46:43.799 --> 00:46:44.639
 Hitler dictatorship.

00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:45.980
 So he thought that

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:47.059
 the lesson from

00:46:47.059 --> 00:46:48.239
 Abyssinian Baptist

00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:49.199
 Church might apply

00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:50.659
 his own context.

00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:57.480
 We've got one or two

00:46:57.480 --> 00:46:58.179
 minutes, so perhaps

00:46:58.179 --> 00:47:01.139
 that's one question

00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:02.839
 with a not so long

00:47:02.839 --> 00:47:03.239
 answer.

00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:07.480
 Well, in the

00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:08.379
 Reformed period and

00:47:08.379 --> 00:47:09.159
 the evangelical period,

00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:09.819
 I think I know what

00:47:09.819 --> 00:47:10.439
 you're going to say

00:47:10.439 --> 00:47:12.480
 here, but are there

00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:13.919
 common texts that are

00:47:13.919 --> 00:47:15.199
 preached or commentaries

00:47:15.779 --> 00:47:16.259
 written on?

00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:17.360
 Is there a kind of a

00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:18.720
 book or two of

00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:20.020
 scripture that is

00:47:20.020 --> 00:47:20.680
 really representative

00:47:20.680 --> 00:47:21.840
 of the Reformed era,

00:47:22.120 --> 00:47:22.800
 really representative

00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:23.520
 of the evangelical

00:47:23.520 --> 00:47:24.560
 era, do you think?

00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:28.699
 classically, you can find

00:47:28.699 --> 00:47:29.699
 lots of the

00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:31.199
 distinctives of

00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.039
 Protestant Christianity

00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:34.799
 in the Book of Romans,

00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:35.380
 of course.

00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.019
 Luther rediscovered

00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:38.079
 grace by reading

00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:38.659
 through, preaching

00:47:38.659 --> 00:47:39.239
 through Romans.

00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:40.500
 For the evangelical

00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:41.659
 revivalists, Romans

00:47:41.659 --> 00:47:42.619
 played a part, but it

00:47:42.619 --> 00:47:43.840
 was more one John.

00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:47.620
 one John had amazing

00:47:47.620 --> 00:47:49.680
 power in the Great

00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:50.400
 Awakening, in the

00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:50.940
 Earth amongst the

00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:51.559
 revivalists.

00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:53.260
 It talks about the

00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:55.120
 spirit, it talks about

00:47:55.120 --> 00:48:01.559
 the subjective

00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.760
 evidences for a close

00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:05.640
 walk with the Lord.

00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:07.380
 It talks about loving

00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:07.880
 your neighbour.

00:48:09.380 --> 00:48:10.559
 It talks about, yeah,

00:48:10.660 --> 00:48:11.240
 anyway, lots of

00:48:11.240 --> 00:48:11.559
 different things.

00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:12.820
 That's a journal article

00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:13.699
 I'd like to write one

00:48:13.699 --> 00:48:14.960
 day, but it's still

00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:15.980
 unfolding in my mind.

00:48:18.139 --> 00:48:18.579
 Thank you.

00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:19.179
 I think we'll call it

00:48:19.179 --> 00:48:19.799
 quits so they can

00:48:19.799 --> 00:48:20.739
 reset for Sunday school.