WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.299 to come back if it wasn't clear enough or anything else. We'll do that. 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.120 Okay, so here's a very helpful one to start with. 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:17.980 Sometimes we might only have a brief moment or one-line opportunity to respond to the accusation, 00:00:18.740 --> 00:00:22.140 you're a Christian, you think it's a sin to be gay. 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:26.019 Any one-line answers that you could suggest? 00:00:26.019 --> 00:00:37.079 Okay, yeah, I don't know that one-line answers are necessarily going to have much impact, 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:40.859 but Jesus had a very good way of turning questions around, 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.219 and I would say that's actually a question I would turn around. 00:00:44.179 --> 00:00:48.460 The Bible doesn't actually talk about being gay, I've already mentioned that this evening, 00:00:48.460 --> 00:00:51.960 it doesn't talk in terms of people's attractions, it talks about practice. 00:00:52.340 --> 00:00:55.539 But actually, I would want to get right to the heart of the matter, 00:00:56.020 --> 00:00:57.900 and maybe one way you could deal with that is say, 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.859 well actually, in the Bible, Jesus said that the most important commandment of all 00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:07.120 is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.040 with all your strength. 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.500 So actually, that's the biggest sin of all that he's really worried about. 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:16.400 And it kind of, it gets the conversation onto a conversation about sin, 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:20.100 rather than specifically about being gay, which might be really helpful. 00:01:20.099 --> 00:01:23.619 And just as a general pointer, I think what is really important, 00:01:23.659 --> 00:01:26.339 where we're trying to share the Gospel with gay friends, 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:32.500 is that we have it clear in our minds that their being gay is not the main issue. 00:01:32.979 --> 00:01:34.259 Okay, I think that's really important. 00:01:34.659 --> 00:01:36.579 Their being gay is not the main issue. 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:41.659 The main issue is that they're not in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. 00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:44.759 So actually, even though they may make it the big issue, 00:01:45.199 --> 00:01:48.459 I think it's really important that as Christians, we don't make it the big issue. 00:01:48.459 --> 00:01:51.379 Because what we end up doing is making it a stumbling block. 00:01:51.459 --> 00:01:55.039 So in other words, we give the impression that actually to become a Christian, 00:01:55.619 --> 00:01:57.280 you have to give up being gay. 00:01:57.659 --> 00:01:59.519 Well, that's not true at all. 00:02:00.139 --> 00:02:04.799 Okay, you become a Christian, and then God, with his Holy Spirit, 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.259 convinces you of all kinds of things he wants to change, 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.180 and transform, and lead you away from. 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:12.639 But it's not, I give up being gay in order to become a Christian. 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:13.659 It doesn't work that way. 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:15.680 So, sorry, that was a very long-winded answer. 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:17.359 That was by no means a one-liner, 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.120 but it's not as simple as that. 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:21.320 Okay. 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:24.540 Second question. 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:27.440 If on any of these points, if you want to follow up, 00:02:27.480 --> 00:02:31.020 if you just raise your hand, and then we'll be able to come to you. 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:34.240 Here's a very helpful one if you have children. 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.340 Both my children have been told at school by teachers 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:41.600 that if they feel attracted to the opposite sex, that's okay. 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:48.099 Basically, they are encouraging their classes to practice and go ahead with homosexuality. 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.079 How do I, as a parent, deal with this? 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:55.540 Yeah, I know that's a real issue in schools at the moment. 00:02:56.540 --> 00:03:01.700 I am aware of one school where the head has actually issued an instruction to all the teachers 00:03:01.700 --> 00:03:05.540 that if anybody, even as young as 11, comes out and says, 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.980 I'm gay or I'm bi, that they have to be affirmed in that. 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:10.100 You can't question it. 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:11.620 You can't say, are you sure? 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:13.380 You actually have to affirm them. 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:15.360 And as I mentioned, I think that's really sad, 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.000 because it's not giving young people space. 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.840 I think, you know, I'm speaking here as someone who isn't a parent, 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.879 and it's sometimes very easy when you're not a parent to give helpful advice to parents. 00:03:25.580 --> 00:03:29.819 But I think what we need to be doing as parents is making sure 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:32.800 that we're actually doing some teaching at home. 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:37.560 So it's really good to get a conversation going with what is being taught in your school. 00:03:37.659 --> 00:03:39.280 So asking your child what they're learning. 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:40.860 And that's not always easy to do. 00:03:40.939 --> 00:03:42.719 I do realise, having been a teenager, 00:03:43.180 --> 00:03:45.400 that it's not always easy to strike up those conversations. 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:50.900 But in a sense, we need to be being prepared to counter what may be being taught in school. 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:55.740 And that's not by coming out with then sort of, you know, homophobic views, 00:03:55.860 --> 00:04:01.740 but actually trying to communicate a really biblical, grace-filled Christian view. 00:04:02.259 --> 00:04:04.280 You know, and so, for example, if a teenager came home and said that, 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.460 I'd be kind of wanting to say the kind of thing like, 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:07.879 well, actually, do you know what? 00:04:08.060 --> 00:04:13.020 You know, a lot of research has shown that people's sexual attractions can fluctuate over time. 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:17.139 So people sometimes may have same-sex attractions in their teenage years 00:04:17.139 --> 00:04:18.680 and that then disappears in their 20s. 00:04:19.019 --> 00:04:21.620 And that actually is sending out a very positive message to your child 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:26.420 to help them, you know, to be able to not judge their gay friends. 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:30.019 But also, potentially, your own child could be struggling in this area. 00:04:30.139 --> 00:04:32.939 And so you want to be sending out a positive message that, 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.660 look, you don't need to define yourself in this way, 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:39.980 even though the teacher says you should be or, you know, you ought to be just accepting it. 00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:42.080 And I just think it is wrong. 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:43.220 It's wrong teaching. 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:45.540 And maybe you need to engage with the school over that as well 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:48.000 and actually be, you know, asking the teachers, 00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:51.040 are you aware that people's sexual attractions fluctuate? 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.140 You know, often into 20s and well beyond. 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:55.740 You know, maybe have that kind of conversation. 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:59.020 And I know of some parents who have had those kind of conversations. 00:04:59.939 --> 00:05:00.520 I hope that's helpful. 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:01.800 Do come back, as Johnny says. 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:04.780 Any comeback? 00:05:04.780 --> 00:05:08.259 Can you all hear at the back okay? 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:09.259 Loud enough? 00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:10.379 Good. 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:12.980 Here's a very practical one. 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:13.960 Well, that one was too. 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:14.560 They all are. 00:05:15.080 --> 00:05:18.879 My wife and I stayed with her gay brother in London. 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:25.620 Now I'm wondering what I will do if they ask to come and stay in my house. 00:05:26.140 --> 00:05:28.620 He's in a long-term relationship. 00:05:30.819 --> 00:05:31.720 Yeah, okay. 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.160 Yeah, very practical issue to deal with. 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:41.160 Okay, well, I want to say there are actually, I think there are two ways of dealing with it. 00:05:41.200 --> 00:05:43.340 There may be more, but certainly two that I can think of. 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:47.080 And I think what it is going to come down to is a question of conscience. 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:51.759 I think actually conscience is a really important part of Christian living. 00:05:51.979 --> 00:05:57.879 So the first way is that you say, well, your brother is not a Christian. 00:05:59.039 --> 00:06:01.719 Him and his partner, I'm assuming, are not claiming to be Christians. 00:06:02.379 --> 00:06:03.180 They're not Christians. 00:06:03.180 --> 00:06:07.160 Therefore, why should I expect them to live Christianly? 00:06:07.780 --> 00:06:10.400 You know, let's face it, it's hard enough for those of us who are Christians. 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:12.540 You have the Holy Spirit in us to live Christianly. 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:15.040 Why should I expect those who are not Christians to live Christianly? 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:16.620 So you could argue it in that way. 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:31.800 And I would say you can take encouragement from examples that I gave this morning in this morning service from the Lord Jesus in the way that he would meet with and minister to people who had strayed from God's purposes sexually. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:39.019 So, for example, the way he met with the woman of Samaria, the way he met with the woman who wiped his feet with her hair, who was a woman of ill repute. 00:06:39.019 --> 00:06:46.699 Jesus didn't say, look, you go and sort your life out and get righteous and then I'll have fellowship with you. 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:48.719 Jesus was known as a friend of sinners. 00:06:49.159 --> 00:06:53.939 And the reason he was known as a friend of sinners was because he would have meals with, quote, sinful people. 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:56.359 And it got him in a lot of hot water for doing it. 00:06:56.379 --> 00:06:57.199 So that's one way. 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:01.419 The other way, though, is that you say, well, this is my home. 00:07:02.159 --> 00:07:03.519 It's a Christian home. 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:12.680 And I feel strongly that I don't want somebody in my home acting in a way that goes against my Christian principle. 00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:14.599 I think that's perfectly valid as well. 00:07:15.299 --> 00:07:24.560 But I think if you're going to do that, you need to find a way of explaining it very lovingly to your family member and saying, look, because of my Christian convictions, this, you know, just have an open discussion. 00:07:24.919 --> 00:07:26.620 It puts me in some difficulty. 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.919 And I think you can argue both ways. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:33.259 And, you know, I'm giving you very, trying to give you a fairly brief answer here. 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:35.439 You can make a biblical argument both ways. 00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:39.420 But what I think it comes down to, and as I say, this is the important issue, is it's a question of conscience. 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:53.439 So I would say if with a clear conscience, you can allow a family member into your home with his partner into a room and you have a clear conscience before God because you're convinced that actually that's the best way to reach them for the gospel, 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:57.460 maintaining a good relationship, showing them a loving welcome, not judging them. 00:07:57.459 --> 00:07:59.779 And you can do that with a clear conscience. 00:07:59.919 --> 00:08:05.639 Then my view is that you shouldn't allow anybody else to judge you and you should do what you believe is right before God. 00:08:05.799 --> 00:08:15.579 If, however, you believe that by doing that, you're compromising your faith, you're sinning against God, and that goes against your conscience, then you shouldn't do it. 00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:18.019 Because actually, by doing it, you are then sinning. 00:08:18.099 --> 00:08:20.339 That's the biblical teaching on conscience. 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:23.939 But I think it's a very difficult one to give a black or white answer. 00:08:23.939 --> 00:08:28.439 I would challenge anybody to give me an absolute clear biblical answer. 00:08:28.899 --> 00:08:32.820 And as such, my feeling is that it's a question of conscience. 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.799 And you should prayerfully, and I do mean prayerfully, praying and asking God, 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.159 Lord, show me how to act in a Christ-like way. 00:08:41.299 --> 00:08:44.379 Show me how to be full of grace and truth in this situation. 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.980 And if you're genuinely doing that, committing it to prayer, seeking to do the right thing, 00:08:48.980 --> 00:08:54.620 I do believe that ultimately God honours that, even if perhaps we don't get it exactly right. 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:58.539 You know, it's a question of what our attitude is and what our heart is. 00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:00.180 I hope that's... 00:09:00.180 --> 00:09:02.940 You'll notice with all of these questions, they are not easy ones, 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.000 and I'm being very careful not just to give black and white answers. 00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:08.960 I actually don't think that's helpful in a lot of these situations. 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:17.840 Yeah, okay, can you say it nice and loud so we can all get it? 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:21.100 It's probably the same thing for us as people living together. 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:21.800 Absolutely. 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:23.700 Absolutely, yeah. 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:28.780 And whether you put them in a different room and explain why you do that. 00:09:29.019 --> 00:09:29.220 Yeah. 00:09:30.060 --> 00:09:31.740 I think it's exactly the same issue. 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:36.780 Yeah, whether it's exactly the same as if it's two people who are opposite sex attracted living together. 00:09:36.779 --> 00:09:37.519 Exactly, yeah. 00:09:37.579 --> 00:09:39.839 And I do think it's a question of conscience. 00:09:39.939 --> 00:09:43.579 And actually, you may find that over time your conscience changes as well. 00:09:43.939 --> 00:09:49.139 You know, a decision you might make at a certain age, you may make a different decision. 00:09:49.259 --> 00:09:51.559 Some of you say that doesn't mean that you've become more liberal. 00:09:51.959 --> 00:09:55.839 It just may mean that your conscience has changed before God, and we should be open to that. 00:09:57.339 --> 00:10:04.220 Just to say, in your children in the house, it might shape your decision in one direction. 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:05.039 Yeah. 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.159 If you don't have children, you might feel free or free. 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:10.120 Yeah, thank you. 00:10:10.179 --> 00:10:11.279 That's a very good point, isn't it? 00:10:11.319 --> 00:10:15.779 Yeah, because you're concerned about the example you're setting for your children. 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:16.659 Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:18.839 --> 00:10:20.159 Any comeback on that? 00:10:20.579 --> 00:10:21.279 Anything further? 00:10:21.459 --> 00:10:22.000 Gentleman there. 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:22.179 Yeah. 00:10:22.179 --> 00:10:25.099 Just one point for the one line of people or two. 00:10:25.599 --> 00:10:29.579 One thing we do is that we don't say a sin, God accepts it. 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:30.459 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:30.459 --> 00:10:35.099 And we follow Jesus Christ who says that sin, even for our own family. 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:35.679 Yeah. 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:41.479 And so our issue is not with how my conscience, should I or shouldn't I think. 00:10:41.959 --> 00:10:44.659 My conscience is how I follow Jesus Christ who says that sin. 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:47.839 You know, the Lord has asked me not to smoke, not to drink, for us. 00:10:47.839 --> 00:10:48.120 No. 00:10:48.359 --> 00:10:48.419 No. 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:48.639 No. 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:48.779 No. 00:10:48.779 --> 00:10:49.179 No. 00:10:49.359 --> 00:10:51.000 So I follow what he says. 00:10:51.239 --> 00:10:51.459 No. 00:10:51.459 --> 00:10:51.519 No. 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:51.859 No. 00:10:51.859 --> 00:10:52.019 No. 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:52.439 No. 00:10:52.439 --> 00:10:52.539 No. 00:10:52.539 --> 00:10:52.559 No. 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:53.059 No. 00:10:53.059 --> 00:10:53.559 No. 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:54.059 No. 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:54.079 No. 00:10:54.079 --> 00:10:54.579 No. 00:10:54.579 --> 00:10:54.599 No. 00:10:54.599 --> 00:10:54.639 No. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:54.659 No. 00:10:54.659 --> 00:10:55.159 No. 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:55.659 No. 00:10:55.659 --> 00:10:56.159 No. 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:56.659 No. 00:10:56.659 --> 00:10:57.659 No. 00:10:57.659 --> 00:10:58.159 No. 00:10:58.159 --> 00:10:58.659 No. 00:10:58.659 --> 00:10:58.699 No. 00:10:58.699 --> 00:10:59.159 No. 00:10:59.159 --> 00:10:59.659 No. 00:10:59.659 --> 00:11:00.159 No. 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:00.659 No. 00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:01.659 No. 00:11:01.659 --> 00:11:02.159 No. 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:02.659 No. 00:11:02.659 --> 00:11:03.659 No. 00:11:03.659 --> 00:11:07.639 No. 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:11.699 No. 00:11:11.699 --> 00:11:12.980 You keep drinking there. 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:13.159 No. 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:14.059 No. 00:11:14.059 --> 00:11:14.620 No. 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:15.600 No. 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:23.419 A Christian teacher has colleagues who are gay or pro-gay. 00:11:23.419 --> 00:11:30.720 How do you witness to Jesus in such a situation when any challenge to gay assumptions is treated 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.860 with hostility? 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:33.580 I'll repeat that again. 00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:37.519 A Christian teacher has colleagues who are gay or pro-gay. 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:40.879 How do you witness to Jesus in such a situation 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.080 when any challenge to gay assumptions is treated with hostility? 00:11:46.820 --> 00:11:49.019 Yeah, okay, good question. 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:51.879 I think probably I would come back to something I said earlier, 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:53.860 that actually from your point of view, 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:58.639 I think it's important to remember that their being gay is not the main issue. 00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:01.060 So in one sense, you want to, you know, 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:02.740 talking about how do you share your faith, 00:12:02.740 --> 00:12:03.379 how do you witness? 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.820 You witness in the way that you would to anybody else who isn't a Christian, 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.200 and that is, it's by sharing your life. 00:12:09.259 --> 00:12:12.120 I think that's really important, that they see by your life, 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.620 the way you live, the way you act, the way you speak, 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.899 the way you don't speak, maybe the fact that you don't gossip. 00:12:17.980 --> 00:12:21.500 All of those things, you'd be amazed at the impact that can have on people. 00:12:21.560 --> 00:12:24.039 I remember in the days when I was in my same-sex relationship, 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.519 I had a couple of Christians working in the office where I worked, 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.560 and although I gave them a torrid time, believe me, 00:12:29.560 --> 00:12:30.879 I gave them a terrible time, 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:34.299 their lives really had a massive impact on me. 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:38.000 And actually, I can think of two Christians who had a real impact on me, 00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:40.259 and they were two good friends, actually, 00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:42.620 who knew that I'd gone into this same-sex relationship, 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:44.939 even though I'd been along to church with them. 00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:47.879 And they actually set me aside and spoke to me and said, 00:12:47.980 --> 00:12:51.480 look, we know, you know, we want you to know that we still love you, 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:55.919 but we believe that the direction you're going is taking you away from God, 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.659 and we're going to be praying that God would commit you. 00:12:58.659 --> 00:12:59.719 Now, I didn't like to hear that, 00:12:59.779 --> 00:13:03.419 but actually it was addressed in such a way that I was able to take it. 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:04.919 So I think in one sense, 00:13:05.099 --> 00:13:07.779 it is just treating them as you would anybody else, 00:13:07.819 --> 00:13:09.539 so sharing your life, sharing your love, 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:11.399 taking opportunities to share gospel truth. 00:13:11.699 --> 00:13:15.179 And I would say, don't you focus on the gay issues. 00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:16.299 They may bring them up, 00:13:16.339 --> 00:13:18.620 and if they do, then you have to address them, 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:22.340 and all you can do is speak the truth in love. 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:24.700 And they may be hostile, and they may reject it, 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:26.039 they may react against it, 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.899 but in a sense, your job is to speak the truth in love, 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.419 and you leave the consequences with God. 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:35.960 But I would suggest that only speak on gay issues if they raise them, 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:37.659 because that's showing that that's where they're at. 00:13:37.820 --> 00:13:41.100 They're convinced that the gospel is opposed to gay people, 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:42.259 or God is opposed to gay people. 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:43.320 Then you have to deal with it. 00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:45.779 But if you show them by your own behaviour 00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:47.899 that actually this is not the main issue for you, 00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:49.939 at all, that actually, you know, 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:51.980 because Jesus didn't go up, for example, 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:53.279 to the woman of Samaria and say, 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.120 you're an adulteress, you're going to hell, you know. 00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:57.000 He didn't address her in that. 00:13:57.059 --> 00:13:59.419 He dealt firstly with her sense of alienation, 00:13:59.899 --> 00:14:02.279 and it was only later on that he began to challenge her 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:03.899 about her sinful behaviour. 00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:06.179 So I think that's the kind of model we need. 00:14:06.299 --> 00:14:08.079 We don't begin with people's sin. 00:14:08.539 --> 00:14:10.840 We begin actually with them as a human being, 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:14.240 and possibly, you know, this hostility that comes out 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:15.240 sometimes from gay people 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:17.620 actually often can be masking, 00:14:17.899 --> 00:14:20.879 a real sense of being downtrodden and rejected 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.179 and feeling that they're hated, 00:14:22.319 --> 00:14:24.419 and all those things can come out 00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:26.220 in quite hostile behaviour. 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:30.259 So that's my thinking, 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.179 and it tends to work that way, 00:14:32.319 --> 00:14:34.199 where you don't concentrate on the gay issue, 00:14:34.419 --> 00:14:36.539 but address it if they bring it up, 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:38.419 but then address it with, you know, 00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:40.639 grace and truth, again, is the phrase I would use. 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:41.259 Thank you. 00:14:44.259 --> 00:14:44.860 Okay. 00:14:45.319 --> 00:14:47.220 Maybe before we ask another one, 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:52.500 just a question in terms of terminology that we use. 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:57.100 Is there a difference between saying gay or homosexual 00:14:57.100 --> 00:15:00.279 or I'm pro-gay and anti-homosexual? 00:15:00.439 --> 00:15:04.100 What's our right way of using our terminology? 00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:04.740 Thank you. 00:15:05.300 --> 00:15:05.840 Yeah, okay. 00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:07.279 What I tend to, 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:10.659 I think when you're speaking with people who are not Christians 00:15:10.659 --> 00:15:12.940 and you're trying to build relationships with people who are not Christians, 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:15.659 I actually think it's really helpful to use 00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:18.460 what I would call culturally acceptable terms. 00:15:18.460 --> 00:15:22.879 So I have a number of friends who are gay 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:24.680 and they call themselves gay. 00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:27.620 So I will call them gay because that's how they identify them. 00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:30.220 So in a sense, that's meeting them where they're at. 00:15:30.280 --> 00:15:32.259 And again, I think that's modelled by the Lord Jesus. 00:15:32.379 --> 00:15:34.160 The Lord Jesus meets people where they're at. 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.519 So I think gay is the culturally acceptable term. 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:39.480 Certainly, I'm assuming it is over here. 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.220 Certainly is in England. 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.560 Homosexual, now, most people who are gay 00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:47.220 wouldn't call themselves homosexual. 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:51.120 And it can often be seen as a derogatory term. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.360 So it's seen more actually as a Christian, 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.540 this is the Christian term that people use 00:15:55.540 --> 00:15:56.960 because they're anti-gay. 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.519 So I personally would avoid using homosexual 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:02.800 just simply because of that reason. 00:16:04.060 --> 00:16:06.160 But homosexual is, if you like, 00:16:06.259 --> 00:16:11.120 the more, you could say, medical scientific term in a sense. 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:14.580 It's describing someone who is attracted to those of the same sex. 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:18.020 But I would say, preferably use the word gay. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.160 But I would also say, within church circles, 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:22.560 when we're talking about these things, 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:29.639 I like to challenge this whole concept of identifying ourselves 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:31.240 according to our sexual attraction. 00:16:31.400 --> 00:16:33.940 So I think it's really important within Christian circles, 00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:36.300 we're not using those terms to each other. 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:37.400 We're not saying, I'm straight. 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:39.819 You know, that's not how God sees us. 00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:41.799 If we're Christians, we're in Christ. 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:43.579 And actually, you know, 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:45.579 we're not to describe ourselves primarily 00:16:45.579 --> 00:16:46.620 according to our sexual attractions. 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:49.059 It is completely an unbiblical concept. 00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:50.699 But that isn't going to make any sense 00:16:50.699 --> 00:16:52.059 to somebody who isn't a Christian. 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:53.539 So you don't begin there. 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:55.840 Have I completely confused you all now? 00:16:55.939 --> 00:16:56.360 I don't know. 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:57.720 Anyway, that's my answer. 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.600 No, I think that's fine. 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:01.200 That's helpful. 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.539 Please, if there's other questions, 00:17:04.620 --> 00:17:05.500 I have two more here. 00:17:05.600 --> 00:17:08.779 So if there are other questions from the floor after this, 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:09.940 please raise them. 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:10.779 Here's another one. 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:15.740 If orientation, that same sex, 00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:19.220 has some environmental factors which contribute, 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.180 then should the new believer remove these things 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:26.839 as part of being changed, healed, redeemed, 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.240 i.e. a choice of clothing, taste in art, music, 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.160 get rid of the cat. 00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:37.700 I guess they assume gay people have cats. 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:38.200 I don't know. 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:39.259 Or is it better? 00:17:40.779 --> 00:17:45.700 Or is it better to see these things as redeemed too? 00:17:47.619 --> 00:17:50.319 So if it's environmental factors, 00:17:50.399 --> 00:17:51.460 when we become a believer, 00:17:51.639 --> 00:17:55.240 do we remove ourselves from these environments? 00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:58.240 Do we change our tastes or what? 00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:01.619 Like you wanted to be an air hose steward? 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:02.220 Yes. 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:03.660 A travel agent? 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:04.180 Yes. 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:06.619 Did you go, right, I'm never going to be that again? 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.139 Or want to be that? 00:18:09.879 --> 00:18:10.319 No. 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:11.980 No, no, not for that reason. 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:13.919 Yes, it's a really interesting question. 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.599 I don't know if I've ever had a question quite like that. 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.159 I think, no, it's a great, I think it's a great question. 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:21.299 Apart from, does it really say about getting rid of the cat? 00:18:21.379 --> 00:18:22.319 It does say get rid of the cat. 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.659 Is that, is that, is that, is that philophobic or something? 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:28.179 I don't know. 00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:31.619 I don't, I don't like cats either. 00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:32.259 Oh, okay. 00:18:32.439 --> 00:18:33.359 Did you write this question? 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.359 You wrote this question. 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.000 But I'm not, but I'm not gay. 00:18:38.399 --> 00:18:38.799 Okay. 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:39.359 Okay. 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.319 Let's, let's, let's, let's get serious again. 00:18:42.199 --> 00:18:43.339 Yeah, I think it's a good question. 00:18:43.459 --> 00:18:51.979 I think certainly as a Christian, I think the environment that we spend our time in is important. 00:18:51.980 --> 00:19:01.420 I would think, I would probably not focus so much, I think that the way we dress and for example, I don't think that's so much what I mean by environment. 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:03.740 I mean, it brings us to a more general question. 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.180 You know, why is it that some gay men, for example, do tend to dress a family? 00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:10.900 By, by all, by no means all, all men. 00:19:10.900 --> 00:19:20.759 And I think that's much more to do with how they're feeling, you know, in themselves and that sometimes it can be a statement, wanting to make that statement. 00:19:20.840 --> 00:19:27.720 Well, sometimes it can just be simply the fact that they're associating with people who dress in a certain way and they want to be felt, they want to feel that they're part of that group. 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:37.980 But I think it's certainly in terms of being careful where you go and what you open yourself up to as a Christian, I would certainly say yes, it can be helpful to change environment. 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:45.860 But I want to be a little bit cautious because I actually think the way we're transformed mostly is actually inwardly. 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:53.559 When we become Christians, God's Holy Spirit dwells within us and we read and we meditate on God's word, the Holy Spirit works within us. 00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:58.660 And we're actually transformed inwardly, which then leads to our behaviour changing outwardly. 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:06.960 The danger with this approach is that we think that actually if we change everything out, if we change all the outward signs, that's actually going to make us different. 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.160 Well, it really isn't. 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:12.140 The only thing that's going to make us different is when we're transformed inwardly. 00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:25.400 So I would say that actually as part of that inward transformation, you may well find that a person who's come from this background, becomes a Christian, does actually and hopefully does start to change various behaviours. 00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:27.900 That may be in terms of the way they dress. 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:31.779 It may be in terms of the places they go, the people they mix with. 00:20:31.779 --> 00:20:39.660 I mean, I still have some gay friends who I spend time with, but I make sure that actually most of my time is spent with Christian friends because that's really important. 00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:40.899 I need that Christian fellowship. 00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:45.519 But actually, I still really enjoy the company of some of my gay friends because they're friends. 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.920 And it's not because they're gay, it's just that they're friends who happen to be gay. 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.700 So, yeah, I hope that's somehow, that's a very, it's a very interesting question. 00:20:54.700 --> 00:20:57.819 So, I hope I've addressed it. 00:20:59.580 --> 00:21:00.680 Don't get rid of the cat. 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:01.700 That's terrible. 00:21:02.100 --> 00:21:05.140 Does the person who doesn't like cats want to come back on that? 00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:07.819 Or any follow-up on that question? 00:21:07.819 --> 00:21:08.680 Yeah, I think it's a prayer. 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:09.680 Absolutely. 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:10.680 Yeah. 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:11.680 Yeah. 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.680 Yeah. 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:13.680 Yeah. 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:14.680 Absolutely. 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.100 And I think that is, that is very important. 00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:32.759 Yeah, the whole. 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:33.759 Yeah. 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.440 Yeah. 00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:38.920 And I mean, that would be the same if you think about it for any kind of sin, you know, sin that you're struggling with. 00:21:38.980 --> 00:21:50.640 I mean, if you're, you know, if you struggle with alcoholism, you are going to need probably to avoid being in places where alcohol is being served freely, you know, or you're spending too much time with people who regularly drink. 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.059 I think it's the same kind of principle. 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:52.359 Yeah. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:58.140 Actually, being careful what we open ourselves up to as Christians is really, is really very important. 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:04.140 One more here. 00:22:04.600 --> 00:22:13.040 If people are not born gay, how come it becomes obvious by looking at their mannerisms that they are different? 00:22:15.340 --> 00:22:16.220 I'll read it again. 00:22:16.300 --> 00:22:22.480 If people are not born gay, how come it becomes obvious by looking at their mannerisms they are different? 00:22:23.360 --> 00:22:25.200 Yeah, it's a really good question. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:37.059 And by saying people are not born gay, I think it's important actually to recognise that, you know, people do notice signs in people as young as two or three. 00:22:37.299 --> 00:22:44.259 You know, I've had parents say to me, you know, I'm convinced even as young as three, you know, that my son is turning out gay. 00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:47.779 They just have this feeling in certain mannerisms, interests and so on. 00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:52.899 I think that, I mean, that's often referred to as gender nonconformity. 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:59.519 So somebody who is growing up and not conforming to their gender, that does not necessarily mean that they're going to develop same-sex attractions. 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:05.579 But just for whatever reason, they're not conforming to the typical male or female stereotypes. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.980 And that can be for a whole number of reasons. 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:09.160 That can be environmental. 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:12.579 It could be that there are some genetic factors there. 00:23:12.619 --> 00:23:15.139 So it could be that actually there is some genetic influence. 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:25.300 Some people maybe are born, you know, and they're just genetically, they have maybe more female influence than male influence. 00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:36.560 And I mean, the other danger with this is I know of a number of people who males who are very effeminate or women who are very masculine who are not at all same-sex attracted. 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:45.559 And you can make, very easily make assumptions that because maybe they have certain mannerisms or they dress in a certain way, that that means that they are therefore gay. 00:23:45.899 --> 00:23:49.960 I mean, I think the fact is that there is no proof that people are born gay. 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:59.259 But as I said earlier, there could well be genetic, biological kind of influences that will appear at a very young age. 00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:05.000 But again, just because they appear at a young age doesn't mean that they are actually there necessarily by birth. 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:13.940 If there's any other questions, I'm going to ask one. 00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:24.740 In terms of us as a church, should we be doing anything proactive in terms of our outreach or our witness? 00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:34.620 Or is it simply, as one of the questions there was, you know, working with a colleague who is gay, just simply being a faithful Christian in that environment? 00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:38.899 Or should we be proactive in seeking to reach out? 00:24:41.159 --> 00:24:41.779 Thank you. 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:47.619 Yeah, I think in answering this, I'm reluctant to be too prescriptive. 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:59.859 But my own personal feeling is that generally the best way to reach openly gay people is actually going to be through friendship or through our normal contact. 00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:13.959 So, for example, people that we work with, family members, friends, neighbours, whatever it is, them seeing our lives lived out for Christ is actually probably going to be more powerful than them sort of coming across some evangelistic event or so on. 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.519 But, as I said, I'm very reluctant to put God in a box because God works in all kinds of ways. 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:24.259 So, for example, I know of a church over in the USA who did an outreach specifically for gay people. 00:25:24.259 --> 00:25:32.339 And as a direct outcome of that outreach, the leader of the Gay Pride March in quite a prominent city in the USA came to faith. 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.680 And that was a massive coup, if you like, for God. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:38.700 So, God can work in all kinds of ways. 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:55.799 But my general experience is that most gay people are not likely to respond very positively to direct evangelistic outreach just because it's going to immediately get the shackles up and all of the baggage is going to come to the fore about how the church is anti-gay. 00:25:55.799 --> 00:26:12.339 So, I think my general experience and feeling is that it's through building a friendship and, you know, I think most gay people really need to see a Christian who is non-judgmental and full of grace and truth. 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.519 You know, that's going to be the thing that's going to really challenge somebody. 00:26:16.139 --> 00:26:19.139 But let's not ever try and put God in a box. 00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:20.619 He can reach people in all kinds of ways. 00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:28.439 So, I do know of people, for example, in London who go to gay bars in Soho directly seeking to reach out with the gospel. 00:26:29.019 --> 00:26:40.699 I know of a boy, a 14-year-old rent boy, that's a male prostitute, who came to faith in Christ in Manchester as a direct result of the street pastor's outreach. 00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:44.159 So, you know, when you hear things like that, you think, wow, isn't God amazing? 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:45.159 You know, God is at work. 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:47.279 God will work in all kinds of ways and means. 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:52.500 But my general feeling is that actually friendship is the best way to reach people. 00:26:56.639 --> 00:26:59.960 We'll go Peter and then John. 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:10.099 Is there any way you think that God is going great to give us ways to learn from the LGBT community? 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:16.700 Is there anything that they do really well and they feel that we can in fact learn from them? 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:18.759 That's a good question. 00:27:20.080 --> 00:27:27.000 Yeah, the question is, is there anything that we could learn from the LGBT community? 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:28.259 Anything that they do well? 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:29.700 Anything that we could... 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:31.700 I think... 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:39.120 I mean, I know, for example, of lesbian, gay, bi, transgender community. 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:42.240 Sorry, you kind of make assumptions. 00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:43.240 Everybody knows the lingo. 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:53.160 I've known of Christian unions in universities who have kind of tried to get a debate going and a conversation going. 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:59.920 So between the Christian union and maybe the gay society or whatever it may be called. 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:05.680 And that can be a good thing to do in terms of getting conversation going. 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:12.740 So I've spoken at an event, for example, in Cambridge, Cambridge Christian Union. 00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:19.539 They did an event where Christians actually invited all of their gay friends to come and sort of gave a talk to them. 00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:28.220 And I was a bit apprehensive as to how that was going to go because, I mean, I have been kind of booed off before in these kind of situations because they don't want to hear. 00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:30.880 But actually, they were really, really good and they listened very well. 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:35.140 And I think that was actually, you know, they had invited the Christians along. 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.019 So I think they actually began that conversation. 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:43.600 They said, look, why don't you come and see what we do in our, you know, our meetings and then maybe we'll come. 00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:47.640 So, but is that kind of what you were thinking? 00:28:47.779 --> 00:28:50.799 I'm not quite sure if I've hit the question there. 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.240 Yeah. 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.799 Yeah. 00:29:17.879 --> 00:29:19.059 Yeah. 00:29:19.099 --> 00:29:19.659 Yeah. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:33.759 Well, I think probably what I would say is that they obviously are very good at including people. 00:29:34.099 --> 00:29:37.240 And I think that's probably, this is where the church, I think, does need to learn. 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:42.279 One of the reasons why I think the pro-gay lobby has been so effective, 00:29:43.139 --> 00:29:48.559 and certainly in terms of reaching out those who've been influenced by churches in the past, 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:54.019 one of the reasons is that the church historically has not been very good at including people and welcoming people 00:29:54.019 --> 00:29:55.679 and dealing with these issues sensitively. 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.960 So I think one of the things that we do need to think as Christians is, 00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:06.480 how can we ensure that our church fellowship is welcoming to people who come from whatever background? 00:30:06.679 --> 00:30:12.799 So actually, for me, the ideal should be that any church on a Sunday, you can have two people walk in, 00:30:12.879 --> 00:30:16.039 whether it's two people of the same sex or the opposite sex who are married, not married. 00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:19.579 They come in and they don't sort of get these sort of looks from the congregation. 00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:22.200 Oh dear, you know, look at... And that does happen, sadly. 00:30:22.639 --> 00:30:24.680 But actually, they're just given a warm welcome, 00:30:25.399 --> 00:30:28.299 because that's the only way, really, that they're likely to hear the gospel, 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:30.779 is if they're welcomed in. They're not judged by people. 00:30:31.879 --> 00:30:34.899 They're shown... They're treated the same as anybody else would be treated, 00:30:35.019 --> 00:30:37.659 whether they're in an opposite sex relationship or a same sex relationship. 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:42.659 You know, in the same way, the person who's maybe a prostitute or the person who's transgender, 00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:46.560 you know, I've heard of churches who are very good at welcoming people who are transgender. 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:49.860 So, you know, you've got a guy walking around in women's clothes. 00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:52.460 That's going to be quite a challenge for a church to deal with. 00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:58.180 But how, you know, how you deal with that could have a really positive or a very negative influence. 00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:03.380 So, to my mind, the way it ought to work is that the church should accept people from all kinds of backgrounds, 00:31:03.840 --> 00:31:07.920 all kinds of struggles, doesn't matter what their culture, what their image, what their sexuality. 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:13.700 And they come into church, they see the love of Christ, and then they hear the word of God. 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.440 And it's the word of God and the Holy Spirit that does the convicting. 00:31:17.900 --> 00:31:21.019 And I think sometimes as Christians, we think we have to do the convicting. 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:22.620 We've got to kind of get in there and lay our... 00:31:22.620 --> 00:31:24.460 You do know, don't you, that the Bible is... 00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:28.800 I'm not saying we put it quite like that, but we feel that we have to lay our cards on the table. 00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.539 And that's, I think, where the gay community has been quite good, 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.960 in that they've welcomed in, disenfranchised people who've been to churches or even... 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:44.680 It's amazing how many gay people, openly gay people, have had sort of brushes with Christianity in the past. 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:49.220 So a number of them maybe have went to a youth group but felt that the youth group didn't accept them 00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:50.940 because they were struggling in this area. 00:31:51.379 --> 00:31:58.119 So I think that would be my main way, is just by being proactive in being loving and welcoming, 00:31:58.119 --> 00:31:59.719 not feeling we have to do the judgment. 00:31:59.819 --> 00:32:02.019 We're never to make judgments over people. 00:32:02.500 --> 00:32:03.339 God does the judging. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:08.159 We do the loving and the speaking the truth in love, and then allowing God to do the rest. 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:09.219 I hope that's helpful. 00:32:12.979 --> 00:32:13.579 Thank you. 00:32:13.659 --> 00:32:13.919 John? 00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:15.019 Thanks, John. 00:32:15.179 --> 00:32:15.439 Yep. 00:32:15.739 --> 00:32:16.959 Thank you, John, for everything. 00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:24.359 In this country, the next few years, there will all be certain things that are in the referendum of gay marriage. 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.039 It's not going to be working in Ireland. 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:30.720 I was going to ask, I think you really answered my question already, 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:35.279 how should the church, especially in the other words, conduct those in this, 00:32:35.899 --> 00:32:39.819 when it was very public, likely very often days. 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.059 And I'm thinking part of the answer, when you reflect back to what you said, 00:32:44.139 --> 00:32:46.859 is that maybe in my church hall where we're joining here, 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:53.279 we should post a debate between both sides of the church, 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:54.220 is what we're doing here. 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:57.339 Is that the opening part of the way in this? 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.859 Yeah, I think it could be. 00:33:02.139 --> 00:33:05.660 I think the only potential danger with that, 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:08.139 I mean, you're trying to do two things at the same time, of course, 00:33:08.180 --> 00:33:10.480 because you want to give clear teaching to believers, 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:12.940 and what you don't want to do is, 00:33:13.099 --> 00:33:15.619 because I think that the one potential danger with this 00:33:15.619 --> 00:33:18.299 is that there are an awful lot of Christians who are really unsure 00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.619 what to believe on these issues. 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:23.299 And the only danger with opening up to debate 00:33:23.299 --> 00:33:26.579 is that actually you may find some Christians are persuaded 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:29.119 by what are sometimes very convincing 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.519 and sometimes very well put arguments 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:35.299 by the gay lobby. 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:37.680 So that would be my only slight concern on that. 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:40.940 I think probably in terms of how do we deal with the gay marriage, 00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:46.759 we shouldn't be afraid as Christians to speak and to speak the truth. 00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:47.660 I think that's really important, 00:33:47.779 --> 00:33:49.340 but I think it's the way we do it. 00:33:49.580 --> 00:33:51.519 So I'm not ashamed to be, 00:33:51.580 --> 00:33:52.980 and I would say to my gay friends, 00:33:53.120 --> 00:33:57.539 I believe that actually marriage has a theological definition. 00:33:57.960 --> 00:33:59.940 It's actually something that God has created. 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.640 It's not something actually that the state owns. 00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:05.180 And I'll have that discussion with my friends, 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.120 but they know that I'm not standing in judgment over them. 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:09.860 I'm just actually expressing my beliefs. 00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:11.920 And I think actually the way we express our beliefs 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:13.420 is probably going to be really important. 00:34:14.200 --> 00:34:15.800 And that actually as we do that, 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.920 and I was quite encouraged by the new Archbishop of Canterbury, 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:21.700 for example, recently, 00:34:21.740 --> 00:34:23.240 he said something along the lines of, 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.740 it's really important that the church has nothing to do with homophobia. 00:34:27.240 --> 00:34:30.120 And yet he is, as far as I can tell, 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:33.940 he is certainly holding firm to the church's teaching 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:36.840 that actually same-sex sexual relationships 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.940 are not right in God's eyes. 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:41.599 But he found a very helpful way to express that. 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:44.760 So I think it's going to be much more in the way we express ourselves. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.400 But we shouldn't be afraid to speak the truth. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:48.800 It's going to be difficult to do that, 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:50.980 because we will be accused of all kinds of things. 00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:55.300 But if at the same time as being pro-marriage, 00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:00.159 we're also showing that we're not standing in judgment over gay people, 00:35:00.240 --> 00:35:02.460 we're not sort of rejecting them, 00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:03.460 and we're doing whatever we... 00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:05.320 I would say much better, maybe, 00:35:05.420 --> 00:35:09.720 to find ways how can we actually create an environment at church 00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:11.039 which is welcoming to people, 00:35:11.539 --> 00:35:12.579 whatever their sexuality, 00:35:13.579 --> 00:35:16.679 but at the same time not compromise what we believe. 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:22.960 Eight seconds, Martin. 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:23.960 Yeah. 00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:25.720 I mean, if I can't do that, 00:35:25.720 --> 00:35:27.720 I don't know that it's made a confidence 00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:28.860 that I've never brought to the past. 00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:30.980 John, I just asked a question 00:35:30.980 --> 00:35:33.159 that my body will walk a little bit. 00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:34.679 For those in church leadership, 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.139 what is the supposed to be for best? 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:37.639 To see how I work with more teachers, 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:40.880 but continue in a lifetime. 00:35:41.720 --> 00:35:42.119 Yeah. 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:43.960 Obviously, I'm not even... 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:47.539 Yeah, thank you. 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:50.240 Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:50.940 Thank you for that. 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.039 Yeah, let me be clear what I mean 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.260 by not standing in judgment over people. 00:35:55.300 --> 00:35:56.079 What I mean by that is 00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.780 actually it's not for us to judge. 00:35:58.880 --> 00:35:59.940 God is the only judge, 00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:01.059 and he's appointed the Lord Jesus. 00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:02.579 But that doesn't mean that as Christians 00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:04.420 we're not to make judgments. 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.539 Do you see what I mean? 00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:06.659 There's a subtle difference there. 00:36:06.740 --> 00:36:08.159 We are to make judgments 00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:10.079 as to what is right and what is wrong, 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.720 and obviously the Bible gives us the direction there. 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.820 So we are to make godly judgments, 00:36:17.059 --> 00:36:19.539 but we're not to stand in judgment over an individual. 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:21.579 So in those kind of situations, 00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:23.019 and I've been in that kind of situation 00:36:23.019 --> 00:36:24.139 as a church leader, 00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:28.500 we do have to challenge all kinds of behavior. 00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:30.539 We have to do that with grace. 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:32.500 We have to do it with real humility. 00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.579 We have to do it on the understanding 00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:36.760 that actually the whole purpose 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.000 of any kind of church discipline, 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:40.340 if we're calling it church discipline, 00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:42.139 the whole purpose of any church discipline 00:36:42.139 --> 00:36:43.880 is actually restorative. 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:45.280 It's not to punish people. 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:46.820 It's actually, you know, 00:36:46.820 --> 00:36:48.679 even if somebody is put out of a church 00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:49.500 for whatever reason, 00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:51.400 it's always with the hope 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:53.079 and the intention and the prayer 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:55.039 that they'll actually return to the Lord 00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:55.880 and return to faith. 00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:57.240 So I think that's really important. 00:36:57.900 --> 00:36:59.199 But there will be times, yeah, 00:36:59.260 --> 00:37:00.579 when we do need to challenge behavior. 00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:01.920 The other thing I want to say on this, 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:03.240 though, I think it's really important 00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:05.159 that we don't, again, 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.699 elevate any kind of sexual sin 00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:10.099 and make it out as to be 00:37:10.099 --> 00:37:11.440 the most important thing, 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:12.619 the thing that we must address. 00:37:12.940 --> 00:37:13.940 And I'll give you an example. 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:15.320 I know of a church situation 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:16.920 where they were very willing 00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:18.480 to challenge sexual sin, 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:20.740 but in this particular church, 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:23.179 and I sort of did a bit of consultancy with them, 00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:24.840 there was a couple who were being 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:27.420 extremely divisive within the church, 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.179 causing real, real problems within the church. 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.760 Now, I know that there's some teaching in Titus 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.139 that talks about warning a divisive person once, 00:37:35.240 --> 00:37:36.260 warn them a second time, 00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:38.160 and after that have nothing to do with them. 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.680 This particular church weren't prepared to do that, 00:37:41.060 --> 00:37:42.960 and it turned out that they were 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.620 what they, quote, called generous givers. 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.420 Now, that, to me, is complete, 00:37:50.140 --> 00:37:52.960 you completely are, 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:54.600 boy, you're showing prejudice, aren't you? 00:37:54.620 --> 00:37:57.060 You are prejudicially treating one couple. 00:37:58.020 --> 00:38:00.060 Somebody who is sexually sinning, deal with it. 00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:01.520 Somebody who's causing division, 00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:04.000 which is actually equally as damaging to the church. 00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:05.240 Don't deal with that. 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:06.979 Yeah, so I think we need to be careful. 00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:09.359 If we're going to challenge sinful behavior, 00:38:09.419 --> 00:38:10.239 which we should be doing, 00:38:10.319 --> 00:38:12.339 and actually it's not just for the pastors 00:38:12.339 --> 00:38:13.319 and leaders of a church, 00:38:13.399 --> 00:38:14.839 we're all to challenge each other, 00:38:15.139 --> 00:38:17.219 you know, speak the truth to one another in love. 00:38:17.479 --> 00:38:18.979 We all have responsibility to do that, 00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:20.419 but let's make sure that we're doing it 00:38:20.419 --> 00:38:21.459 from a position of humility, 00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:25.879 that we're seeing it as something restorative, 00:38:26.059 --> 00:38:27.319 not punitive, 00:38:27.939 --> 00:38:30.739 and that we don't just do it for one particular sin 00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:32.000 and ignore all these other kinds of, 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:33.500 you know, slander should be challenged, 00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:35.159 you know, all of these other things 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:36.619 that 1 Corinthians 6 talks about. 00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:39.880 Thanks very much, Jonathan. 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:40.840 We're going to stop there, 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.760 but please do come and talk to Jonathan 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:44.159 if you'd like to afterwards. 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:46.000 Thanks very much for coming. 00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:47.940 I'm simply just going to pray, 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.579 and those who have to leave can leave. 00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:57.039 Father, thank you so much for your amazing grace 00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:00.819 for the gospel that has reached into our lives, 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:05.059 that Christ would come and take my guilt, 00:39:05.259 --> 00:39:06.360 our guilt and shame, 00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:08.039 and our sin upon himself, 00:39:08.739 --> 00:39:11.719 and take the wrath that we deserve 00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:13.659 so that we can be forgiven, 00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:15.319 welcomed in, 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.000 and accepted as your children. 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:19.780 And we praise you, 00:39:19.780 --> 00:39:21.039 and we thank you for that. 00:39:22.219 --> 00:39:25.099 Please help us as we go into our families, 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:26.179 our workplaces, 00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:26.880 our schools, 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:27.619 our colleges, 00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.900 to be people who bring that same grace 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:33.360 and offer that same gospel, 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.400 that we would be people who do so 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.599 with grace and truth. 00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:41.940 Please provide those opportunities for us, 00:39:42.019 --> 00:39:43.579 open up doors of opportunity, 00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:45.780 that we would live well, 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:47.880 that people would see that difference 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.019 and ask and talk. 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:51.780 We pray for Jonathan. 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:54.700 We thank you for the work of True Freedom Trust. 00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:57.440 We pray you would give to him great wisdom, 00:39:57.620 --> 00:39:58.240 pastorally, 00:39:58.620 --> 00:40:00.060 as he meets with people, 00:40:00.740 --> 00:40:03.080 that he would be given the words to say, 00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:05.680 and that you would encourage him 00:40:05.680 --> 00:40:07.720 in his own life and work. 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:09.660 And we ask, 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:09.940 Father, 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:11.940 your blessing upon us all as we leave. 00:40:12.040 --> 00:40:12.980 Bring us home safely, 00:40:12.980 --> 00:40:15.159 and we thank you for this evening. 00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:16.679 In Jesus' name. 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:17.559 Amen. 00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:20.519 So I encourage you just to check out 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:22.500 the website that's on the screen, 00:40:23.139 --> 00:40:25.219 but thanks again very much for coming. 00:40:25.380 --> 00:40:26.500 If you have cups, 00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:29.719 just put them up on the hatch there. 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:30.159 Thank you.