WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.740 Good morning. 00:00:00.940 --> 00:00:01.439 Good morning. 00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:02.740 Thank you, everyone, for being here. 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:05.120 I can open some. 00:00:05.299 --> 00:00:05.700 Perfect. 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:06.060 Okay. 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:07.679 Let me open us up in a word of prayer. 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:15.880 Father, we thank you for gathering us on this Sunday, this Mother's Day. 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:22.760 We thank you for the mothers in our lives, spiritual, biological, that have guided us 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:23.400 on this journey. 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:32.600 We thank you for a time to learn about your word and who you are, who you have revealed 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:33.820 yourself to be in scripture. 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:39.320 And we thank you that you're a God who has entered into our weakness, who knows our struggles 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:46.619 with thoughts and feelings, and that you have borne witness to that and you give us grace. 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:54.259 We pray that this time would be used to accomplish your purposes, to make us more into a community 00:00:54.259 --> 00:01:01.280 that bears with one another and that can show one another grace in truth and in love. 00:01:01.879 --> 00:01:02.559 In Jesus' name we pray. 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:08.000 All right. 00:01:08.479 --> 00:01:10.400 So thank you, everyone, for being here. 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:11.239 How's the sound? 00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:12.700 Are we getting perfect? 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:13.180 Okay. 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:17.060 Last week we had some issues with projecting our voice. 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:26.900 So we are excited to talk about faith and mental health week two. 00:01:27.299 --> 00:01:32.260 Last week, for those of you who might not have been here, we did an intro kind of talking 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:41.300 about causes of mental illness and common misconceptions that might pop up in Christian 00:01:41.299 --> 00:01:43.200 communities around causes of mental illness. 00:01:43.819 --> 00:01:47.060 So today we're going to be diving in more. 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:48.280 Yeah. 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:55.140 More excited to talk about specifically why it might be difficult in Christian communities 00:01:55.140 --> 00:01:57.579 to talk about mental health and mental illness. 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:03.140 So what we're going to be really looking at today, and we're going to be digging into scripture 00:02:03.140 --> 00:02:10.099 quite a bit, is how, not necessarily in this church setting, but just in other Christian 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:17.159 communities broadly, how might we have incorrectly applied Bible verses or Christian principles 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.439 in a way that might have contributed to mental health stigma? 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:24.680 And we're going to be diving more and more into that. 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:28.379 And there's a lot of stigma at every step of the way. 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:34.639 And I think how we've broken it up for this week is how does stigma manifest in just kind 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:38.840 of even faithful Christians having mental illness? 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:43.659 And next week, as we talk a little bit about, as people start the process of seeking help in 00:02:43.659 --> 00:02:48.039 therapy, what suspiciousness there might be as well around our profession. 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:52.960 But today, just even around, like, can mental illness exist with Christians? 00:02:54.500 --> 00:02:57.139 So yeah, there's, yeah, different ways. 00:02:57.259 --> 00:03:02.579 So yeah, today we're specifically focused on why is it hard to acknowledge as a Christian 00:03:02.579 --> 00:03:04.579 having a mental illness? 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:09.439 So just a brief review of some statistics we talked about last week. 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:17.800 So around one in five people in the U.S. at any given time have a diagnosable mental illness. 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.120 This includes Christians and includes pastors. 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:26.039 So it seems like the rates for Christians and pastors are pretty much the same as for the 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:26.819 general population. 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.219 But there's a few interesting statistics. 00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:36.719 There was a big Christian organization did a research study about this and kind of polled people 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:44.939 around somewhere between 60 and 65 percent of people who are either affected by mental 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:49.560 illness or who have a family member affected by mental illness are hoping that their church 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:51.699 will talk more openly about mental illness. 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:58.960 But they did a sort of a survey of Protestant senior pastors and found that 66 percent talked 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.159 about mental illness once a year or less. 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:08.419 So there seems to be a discrepancy between, yeah, sort of how comfortable churches are talking 00:04:08.419 --> 00:04:11.879 about mental illness and how much people actually want to talk about it. 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:20.040 They also did a review serving people, Christians who do have mental illness and found that 30 percent 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:23.379 had had a negative interaction with their church around mental illness. 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:27.420 And there was different reasons for that. 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:34.000 So it seems like there's a gap between what people are experiencing and how frequently we're 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:38.020 talking about mental health in the context of just Christian communities more broadly. 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:42.660 So we were curious to look at why, like, why is that gap? 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:48.939 Like, why is our church a more difficult place to talk about mental illness when people are 00:04:48.939 --> 00:04:50.460 actually hoping to talk about it? 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:56.699 And we think that there's some, yeah, some probably pretty good reasons for that. 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:58.299 And we wanted to explore further. 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:04.319 But first, just to hear from all of you, as you know, we're therapists, so we like to have 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.879 more of a group conversation. 00:05:06.919 --> 00:05:13.000 How easy or difficult do you feel like it is to talk about mental illness in Christian communities? 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:17.139 So it could just be churches more broadly, Christian spaces you're in. 00:05:17.799 --> 00:05:20.279 How easy or difficult is that? 00:05:20.459 --> 00:05:23.979 Either from your personal experience or from your observation. 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:33.759 So I moved from Midwest to Connecticut. 00:05:35.039 --> 00:05:35.680 Well, I'm back. 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:46.919 But I found it much easier, much more accepted that mental illness even existed in New England. 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:51.819 Part of that might have been, I came to work for a social service agency. 00:05:52.280 --> 00:05:57.800 I was working at a social service agency before in a different capacity. 00:05:58.520 --> 00:06:07.560 But I found in the Midwest in particular, at least enough, the Christian circles that I was involved in, 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:15.980 I had a much more black and white view of, you know, this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad. 00:06:15.980 --> 00:06:16.980 And I find there's a lot of people that I've been doing. 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:29.500 And I find there was my experience in the women that we're much more willing to accept that there's a broad spectrum 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:35.879 that real life gets in the way of what we call biblical theory. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:42.180 And that, you know, God knows that and he's okay with that. 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.300 And they cover more than just mental health. 00:06:46.300 --> 00:07:02.500 Yeah, that's actually one of the first big topics we wanted to talk about was just kind of the black and white thinking. 00:07:02.840 --> 00:07:04.199 And so thank you for bringing that up. 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.120 And it's interesting, different regions of the country. 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:08.740 I've had the same experience, too. 00:07:08.840 --> 00:07:11.220 So that's an interesting observation. 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:13.960 How about other people? 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.320 And it might be easy and there might be really good experiences or difficult experiences. 00:07:19.960 --> 00:07:23.800 I was born and raised in a very small town in Ohio. 00:07:24.260 --> 00:07:31.020 And when I was going through a very difficult divorce, I saw Christian counseling and spoke to friends in the church, 00:07:31.220 --> 00:07:34.400 friends out of the church, and they all encouraged me and supported me. 00:07:34.520 --> 00:07:35.820 And I never had a problem. 00:07:38.200 --> 00:07:38.780 That's great. 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:39.300 That's wonderful. 00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:40.080 That was wonderful. 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.579 Yeah, and a great support system. 00:07:43.379 --> 00:07:44.279 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:45.800 Yeah? 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:52.079 When I say, when it comes to mental illness, I believe that, you know, people tend to spiritualize it more than it needs to be. 00:07:52.659 --> 00:07:54.139 There's a lot of blaming and shaming. 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:55.319 You know, who sins? 00:07:55.419 --> 00:07:56.500 His father was parents. 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:57.659 You know, the answers for nothing. 00:07:57.759 --> 00:07:58.319 That kind of thing. 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:06.500 And it doesn't take into account the physiological illness, you know, physical sickness that's happening. 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:07.560 Yeah. 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:08.060 Yeah. 00:08:08.060 --> 00:08:10.180 And how that can be such a struggle. 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:11.040 Yeah. 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.379 Yeah, these range of experiences, right? 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:21.740 From, like, the church being really safe and supportive and the best place to be in a struggle to kind of feeling sort of blamed and stigmatized. 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:21.939 Yeah. 00:08:24.260 --> 00:08:25.300 Thanks for sharing. 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:29.879 How about others? 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:34.879 Any observations of how easy or difficult it seems to be to talk about mental health? 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:36.340 Carolyn? 00:08:36.340 --> 00:08:36.360 Carolyn? 00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:46.240 I think I found it easier to talk about mental health when it seems to be in conjunction with, like, an event. 00:08:46.439 --> 00:08:53.419 So a death or a trauma or something to then be like, because of this, I'm experiencing this. 00:08:53.419 --> 00:09:00.779 I think it feels particularly hard to talk about when it feels like there is no cause and effect. 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:11.500 It's like, oh, I'm just experiencing depression or anxiety, and I can't tie it to something that seems to be causing it. 00:09:11.500 --> 00:09:12.100 Yeah. 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:12.179 Yeah. 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:13.360 Absolutely. 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:14.159 Yeah. 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:15.360 For sure. 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.679 I've found, too, for myself personally, it's easier to talk about in the past tense than the present tense. 00:09:20.779 --> 00:09:29.019 It's a lot easier to say, oh, I used to struggle with this, and now I'm over it, and I'm better than it is to say, today I'm having a really bad day. 00:09:29.179 --> 00:09:32.700 You know, there's something about that that feels more difficult, more vulnerable. 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:37.440 We like narrative arcs that are a little more tidy and complete. 00:09:38.280 --> 00:09:38.560 Yeah. 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:41.759 Yeah. 00:09:42.060 --> 00:09:42.800 Anyone else? 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:51.580 I think theology can affect it as well, if you think that Christianity fixes it. 00:09:51.580 --> 00:10:08.700 Like, I think theology is one that bends to, like, we solve everything, or the church is the place of the healed. 00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:09.920 Yeah. 00:10:10.040 --> 00:10:12.320 I think your theology can affect it. 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:13.320 Yeah. 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:28.320 But if you're in a church, so a safer church might be one that says, like, we're born to trouble as the sparks fly upward, and, like, trouble and sin and this consistency of, so I think sometimes theology runs into it. 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.480 If you're in a name and climate kind of place, it can be very difficult. 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.600 Because you're not supposed to be broken, you're supposed to be fixed. 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:35.759 Yeah. 00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:46.340 Whereas if you're in a place where it understands the messiness of life and the drama of sin, that there's a now and not yet, I guess. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:48.920 Yeah. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:49.379 Yeah. 00:10:49.659 --> 00:10:50.080 Absolutely. 00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:50.720 Yeah. 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:51.759 Good segue. 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:52.600 Yeah. 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:53.680 That's a great segue. 00:10:53.800 --> 00:10:55.060 Y'all are teaching the Sunday school. 00:10:55.059 --> 00:11:07.139 So today, I think, so we wanted to just kind of focus on three main messages that we might have received kind of growing up in the church or in different church communities. 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:19.079 And so the first one we'll talk about is either or thinking or black and white thinking, kind of this idea of moral absolutes and how does that play into the broad spectrum of kind of our lived experiences. 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:29.120 The second one is around, you know, when we call it mental illness, are we letting people off the hook and not keeping them accountable and calling them to repentance? 00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:37.060 And the third one is around, some of you have also mentioned this idea of over-spiritualizing and spiritual bypassing. 00:11:37.059 --> 00:11:56.259 And just kind of as we're going through each of these three messages we may have received, I think as Alina was talking about before, right, that it's not necessarily that it's bad, but it's that it's a very narrow, it can be a narrow view where scripture is much more complex. 00:11:56.259 --> 00:12:05.519 And that often, even if scripture doesn't teach it, there's a gap between our theology and kind of the culture we may see in churches. 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:16.220 And so just kind of thinking about, you know, what do we do, you know, the difference between what we say we believe and how our churches are structured and how, you know, what do we do? 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:17.139 What do we prioritize? 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:18.740 Who is visible? 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:20.519 That kind of a thing for each of these. 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:27.419 All right, so subtle messages. 00:12:27.939 --> 00:12:34.840 Okay, so the first one is about this either-or thinking, the black and white thinking that some of y'all have mentioned. 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:44.259 And I think as Christians, there are parts of our faith that are absolute, that are very black and white. 00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:54.000 And we think about verses like Luke 11, 23, where Jesus says, whoever is not with me is against me. 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.080 And whoever doesn't gather with me scatters. 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.439 Or we think about John 14, 6, where Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.100 No one comes to the Father except through me. 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.259 And we have a couple more listed. 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:11.159 Romans 6, 11, you know, you're either dead to sin or alive to God in Christ. 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:15.379 Matthew 6, 24, you can't have two masters. 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.439 You either hate the one, love the other. 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:21.959 2 Corinthians 5, 17, you're a new creation. 00:13:22.719 --> 00:13:23.439 You're not the new. 00:13:23.899 --> 00:13:24.959 The old has gone. 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:26.039 The new is here, right? 00:13:26.079 --> 00:13:29.579 So there's very much that you were this, now you are this. 00:13:29.939 --> 00:13:38.539 And that can kind of obscure some of, again, that already but not yet nature of how we live our Christian lives. 00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:46.179 And when we think about kind of implicit messages we may have received in the church, right? 00:13:46.219 --> 00:13:49.839 I've had somebody talk about, you know, you either have faith or you don't. 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.179 Just like you can't be a little pregnant. 00:13:53.439 --> 00:13:55.199 You either are or you're not, right? 00:13:55.259 --> 00:14:01.120 And so kind of the ways that we talk about having faith can be very like, are you in or are you out? 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:18.600 And then when we apply that to mental health, you know, we might implicitly be thinking or, you know, people may have experienced others saying, right, you're either depressed or you have faith in God's goodness and promises. 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:24.920 You're either anxious or you trust God or you have all these idols in your heart that you need to repent of. 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:30.960 God has given us a sound mind and so you can't have a thought disorder. 00:14:31.899 --> 00:14:36.480 Or, you know, the spirit of God has given us power, love, and self-discipline. 00:14:36.540 --> 00:14:39.360 So if you have self-discipline, you wouldn't struggle with addiction. 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:48.419 So these are just kind of the ways that some of these black and white ways of thinking might get translated into how we think about mental health. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:50.639 And I think you had a couple of examples. 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:51.919 Did you have a couple of examples? 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:52.220 Yeah. 00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:56.360 And I think, too, there's, it's complex because there certainly are. 00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.600 Like Stephanie said, blacks and whites and absolutes. 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:02.980 We are sinners who need to repent and trust Christ. 00:15:02.980 --> 00:15:13.759 And sometimes we take some of those absolutes and might apply them to places where there actually is more complexity, like an area like mental health. 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.320 So, yes, sometimes we might think. 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:27.879 I had somebody once, just a friend once tell me who was struggling with panic attacks and, like, really, really suffering with this. 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:38.399 And she had told me that she had been told and kind of had come to believe the reason she was struggling with panic attacks is because she was making an idol of other people's opinions. 00:15:38.939 --> 00:15:44.200 And if she were to stop making an idol of other people's opinions, she would stop having panic attacks. 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:49.820 And, again, she very well possibly could have been making an idol of other people's opinions. 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:50.580 I'm not sure. 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:57.480 But it was definitely like a, I'm, I have this physical, physiological symptom because of the sin in my heart. 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:11.980 And sometimes that can become very frustrating for those people who are struggling and trying to repent and trying to, you know, overcome a sin but not feeling like the mental health symptom is improving. 00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:15.820 And so that can just get complex. 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.860 So, and we talked last week about does sin play a role? 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.460 And certainly sin plays a role in all aspects of our lives. 00:16:24.460 --> 00:16:34.240 But, like, I think someone, you mentioned there's biological reasons that contribute to mental illness, trauma, psychological reasons, a lot kind of going on there. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:41.799 So, we have proposed an alternative. 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.820 And we'll try to talk about the scriptural support that we see for this. 00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:47.639 But we'd love to hear from all of you, too. 00:16:48.259 --> 00:16:55.580 That it is possible to suffer in mind and body with mental illness, just like it is with physical illness. 00:16:55.580 --> 00:17:00.840 And to have a flourishing relationship with Christ such that one doesn't negate the other. 00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:11.220 You can be, feel very anxious, very depressed, and be growing and pursuing Christ at the same time. 00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:15.200 And I think sometimes it's hard for us to have categories for that in the church. 00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:21.620 What does it mean if someone is really anxious, having panic attacks, but pursuing Christ? 00:17:21.619 --> 00:17:23.119 It's like, what do we, how do we understand that? 00:17:23.139 --> 00:17:23.859 What do we do with that? 00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:37.539 And also that, I think along with that, mental illness can prompt us to actually have greater hope and expectation and anticipation for the day when God will redeem our minds and our bodies. 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:41.940 So, as opposed to it being like, oh, this is really a hindrance to your spiritual life. 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.700 And this kind of shows that you're spiritually weak or have some kind of unconfessed sin. 00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:54.619 This is actually a struggle, like a thorn in the flesh that can prompt us to really long for the day of redemption. 00:17:54.619 --> 00:18:12.019 Yeah, so in terms of the both and nature that we see in scripture, the one in Matthew, you know, talks about the Beatitudes. 00:18:12.219 --> 00:18:15.419 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:19.219 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:34.559 And there's also, you know, I think unique to Christianity that aspect of the already but not yet, right, where Jesus has come, but we haven't seen, and he has brought God's kingdom, but we don't see the fullness of that quite yet. 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:40.200 And how does that translate into the things that we end up struggling with? 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:45.799 Oh, sorry, I had already moved to 10. 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:47.000 Oh, yes, thank you. 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:47.420 All right. 00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:50.360 All right, Alina is on top of it. 00:18:50.500 --> 00:19:03.059 All right, so in terms of just kind of even understanding already but not yet, right, so here are a bunch of Bible verses around, you know, how we are already adopted in Christ, but not yet adopted. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.580 We're already redeemed, but not yet redeemed. 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:14.000 We're already sanctified, but not fully sanctified, saved in Christ, not yet saved, already raised with Christ, but not yet raised. 00:19:15.019 --> 00:19:21.819 So even, I mean, I'm not going to go through all of the Bible verses, and this is kind of from a professor at Westminster. 00:19:21.819 --> 00:19:35.619 But just to go through one of them, right, so the language of Romans 8.15 says, you have received, past tense, the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, Abba, Father. 00:19:36.740 --> 00:19:42.279 And then Romans 8.23, just a couple verses later, say that we're not yet adopted, right? 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:50.480 We wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies, and that's kind of in the context of our groaning and our struggles. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:20:06.700 And so even just in the ways that we already are all of these things in Christ and yet have not seen the fullness of it, that can translate into how we experience life on this earth. 00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:11.980 And so there are tensions in our Christian life as a result, right? 00:20:12.019 --> 00:20:20.100 And last week we talked a little bit about Mark 9, where this beautiful prayer of, I believe, help my unbelief, right? 00:20:20.100 --> 00:20:28.640 So that there are times where, you know, we do have faith in Christ, but we're still asking for more faith in order to believe his promises. 00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:31.660 And those are honest prayers that made it into the Bible. 00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:37.940 And then Romans 15, where Paul says, I do not understand what I do. 00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:40.700 For what I want to do, I do not do. 00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:42.519 But what I hate, I do. 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:47.200 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 00:20:47.600 --> 00:20:51.860 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:54.779 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me. 00:20:54.840 --> 00:20:55.900 That is my sinful nature. 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.920 For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:05.640 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do. 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:07.259 This I keep on doing. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:15.440 So a little bit of like a tongue twister there, but just that idea of these conflicting desires within us. 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:20.180 And we want to want Jesus, and sometimes it's hard. 00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:31.000 And that, you know, both the fallenness that we see around us and kind of individual choices, that those all contribute to the tension that we are living in right now. 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:34.360 Thank you. 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:41.079 And so David Paulison has written this, I think a whole book. 00:21:41.159 --> 00:21:51.479 But there was this great example that he had where he's talking about, you know, yes, the moral absolutes help us orient rightly on the journey. 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:58.160 Right. But it's not either you're in oily rags or you're in this garden of delights. 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:05.640 But it's really a change process where you're going from oily rags to the garden of delights. 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:18.259 And if we think about our faith journey and the process of sanctification, you know, we might be tempted to think, oh, you know, it's about he uses the example of going from Boston to Philadelphia. 00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:29.100 Right. You know, is it this formula where it's how fast you're going, the distance you're covering and this formula of when you get to arrive at your destination? 00:22:29.099 --> 00:22:37.559 And he says, well, it's much more about, you know, regardless of speed, are you even headed in the right direction? 00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:42.000 Are you headed towards Philadelphia? If you're headed towards Seattle, it doesn't even matter how fast you're going. 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.539 You're just not headed in the right direction. Right. 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:58.359 And that having a long view of the process of sanctification is so important for us, you know, both as we kind of interact with others in the church and with ourselves as we struggle with various sufferings. 00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:07.139 And that there may be seasons where it's amazing and, you know, everything is great and you're leaping around and it's filled with joy. 00:23:07.399 --> 00:23:15.759 And then there are seasons where you are just kind of trudging along and it's a steady progress. Right. 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:22.699 And we like those stories. We like the narratives of being able to kind of show that we are getting better and better. 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:27.900 But sometimes, you know, we're just kind of, you know, on our hands and knees and crawling along. 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:34.840 And sometimes we're in gridlock and the car has broken down and we're not going anywhere. 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:41.819 But we're as long as we're oriented in the right direction towards the Lord, like that's not nothing. Right. 00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:43.420 That is still an act of faith. 00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:54.000 And so being oriented to the Lord, even if there is no perceptible movement, is still so important in times where we're suffering. 00:23:54.620 --> 00:24:03.420 And so just kind of keeping that in mind that it's not about the absolute distance we're covering, but just are we oriented towards the Lord in our cries? 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:04.960 Are we oriented towards the Lord? 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:22.180 I'm curious if people have questions, comments, disagreements, or even personal experiences you have of like thinking through how this either or thinking minor might not apply to mental health. 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.440 We'd love to hear from anyone who has thoughts. 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.960 What you just pointed out provides another lens through which to help us progress. 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:39.920 And a lot of this sounds like what we're in is in actuality a transition process. 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.779 And we think of transition as maybe not being quite so long in a lifetime. 00:24:44.380 --> 00:24:50.180 But that that's pretty much what that looks like to me. 00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:54.240 Thank you. 00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:01.840 I think, hopefully, as I get older and wiser, I've learned not to compare myself with others. 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:03.220 And then their walks. 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:05.059 Because we're all on a different walk. 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:06.400 We're all on different levels. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.019 I think that's the best thing I did for my own mental health. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.120 Yeah. 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:15.079 That's an important one for sure. 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:15.620 Yeah. 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:16.440 Absolutely. 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:16.640 Absolutely. 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:25.600 I used to struggle a lot with, like, who am I really? 00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:28.079 Like, am I two of me? 00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:29.880 Or am I one of you? 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:30.280 Right? 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.980 With that passage you read from, it sure sounds like there's two of me. 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:35.360 Right? 00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:40.180 But it's God has had the final word on our identity. 00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:43.320 The flesh is a tagalong. 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:48.300 It's this zombie that keeps crawling out of the grave. 00:25:48.580 --> 00:25:52.080 But, you know, the Bible tells us to put it to death. 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.159 But it doesn't, nowhere does it expect us to have that done any time before the end. 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:05.199 We read the letters of Paul and his ongoing struggle, you know, to the very end. 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:11.100 And as he progresses toward the end of his life, he says, I'm chief of sinners. 00:26:11.340 --> 00:26:16.120 But at the same time, he's like, I expect shortly to receive the crown. 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:17.160 Like, he doesn't. 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:20.680 He keeps the cross in mind. 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.559 He keeps grace in mind. 00:26:23.019 --> 00:26:28.500 Suffering is not a sign of your, not always a sign of your disobedience. 00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:30.740 It's not a sign of God's displeasure. 00:26:30.980 --> 00:26:32.819 It's a tool of his fun. 00:26:36.579 --> 00:26:36.980 Yeah. 00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:44.500 And I think mental illness, too, can be at least like a reminder of our sort of frailty 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:47.940 and our vulnerability and our dependence on God, you know. 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.819 And for me personally, anytime I would like to escape that reality of my dependence 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:58.859 and my frailty and my need for God, my mental health quickly reminds me. 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:05.480 Or, you know, quickly sort of, I can't stay sort of prideful for long. 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:12.740 So in that way, it's, you know, we're reminded that we're, yeah, we're waiting for redemption 00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:13.740 and we're not yet there. 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:15.939 The redemption of our minds and bodies. 00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:17.119 Yeah. 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:17.460 Yeah. 00:27:17.639 --> 00:27:21.460 That even that groaning indicates that there's so much more that we're hoping for. 00:27:21.460 --> 00:27:22.019 Yeah. 00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:25.700 Any objections? 00:27:26.059 --> 00:27:27.539 We love to hear objections, too. 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:29.920 You can tell we're therapists here. 00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:30.420 Yeah. 00:27:37.420 --> 00:27:38.960 Anything that y'all is, uh-huh? 00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:40.259 This is not an objection. 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:40.940 Sorry. 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.140 We were hoping for some objections. 00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:51.319 But it does occur to me that even more so than just seeing that this is a reality, 00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:53.420 to see it as a grace. 00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:00.720 Because it seems like one of the patterns of the gospel is that it's in our weakness that God's glory is shown. 00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:07.779 And in our neediness is when the gospel is sweet and rich to us and meaningful. 00:28:07.779 --> 00:28:17.839 And it does seem like one of the ways that the church culture can mitigate against having a healthy approach to mental illness is we kind of, 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:21.299 we just want to have a, can't we get it right mentality. 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:29.799 And part of what the gospel tells us is we're going to increasingly see our neediness for God in the gospel. 00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:36.079 And for his help, you know, his sustaining help, his healing help, his transforming help. 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:52.919 And that it's, it's not just a circumstance we have to navigate, but it's actually a grace that God gives to us to walk with whatever length he gives us in life. 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:55.839 Yeah. 00:28:56.099 --> 00:28:57.419 In the process. 00:28:57.779 --> 00:28:59.079 So that was my. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:00.119 Yeah. 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:00.579 Amen. 00:29:00.899 --> 00:29:01.139 Amen. 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:01.259 Amen. 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:03.140 Yeah. 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:10.020 And I think it's, I was thinking, I think it's common to feel with mental illness or maybe just for myself of like, 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:12.040 why do I have this limp? 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:12.340 Right? 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:13.880 Like, you can have somebody else's limp. 00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:15.140 That limp seems a little easier. 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:21.060 Like, this one is particularly frustrating and kind of makes me look bad. 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:28.060 You know, and I think it's good to keep in mind that this is, yeah, that this can be a grace that can point us toward Christ. 00:29:28.060 --> 00:29:30.060 So I'm glad that you said that. 00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:32.060 Yeah, Tom. 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:34.720 I just, no objections I'm affirming. 00:29:36.620 --> 00:29:38.759 We need some objections here, yeah. 00:29:39.259 --> 00:29:45.960 Those Bible verses you were using, they're not cherry-picked because they're all over Scripture. 00:29:46.300 --> 00:29:48.259 I mean, it just comes up again and again and again. 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.660 And you read the Psalms, and the Psalms is just like, why is my soul downcast? 00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:52.580 Mm-hmm. 00:29:52.580 --> 00:30:03.900 And, you know, there's entire books, Lamentations, Jeremiah, Job, that are struggling with various emotional or psychological trauma that people are experiencing. 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:13.140 And I'm just reminded of how this is not only in the Bible but also with Jesus, that, like, he didn't just take on our physical sufferings. 00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:20.540 He knows what it's like to struggle with the temptation towards anxiety or depression or whatever it may be. 00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:21.140 Yeah. 00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:23.440 Scripture says that he knows that. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.960 And he became like us in every way. 00:30:26.120 --> 00:30:27.600 So he can redeem us in every way. 00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:30.400 And that includes our minds and our emotions. 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:31.059 Mm-hmm. 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:31.460 Mm-hmm. 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:32.000 Yeah. 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:32.880 Amen. 00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:33.720 Yeah. 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:34.480 Yeah. 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:39.279 And that there is still, he's acquainted with the struggle, but there is still no sin. 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:46.299 And, like, we don't want to minimize the struggle that he had because there is so much scripture around that, for sure. 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:47.099 Mm-hmm. 00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:47.940 Yeah. 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:49.619 Well, great segue. 00:30:50.099 --> 00:30:50.259 Yeah. 00:30:50.619 --> 00:30:51.059 Yeah. 00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:57.359 Well, we'll get to Jesus in his experience in a little bit. 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:06.279 But this is one that I think actually comes up pretty often in Christian communities sort of implicitly, if not explicitly, 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:12.639 which is if, especially because mental illness, it affects our behavior, right? 00:31:12.700 --> 00:31:17.899 People behave in ways that we don't understand when they're experiencing mental illness. 00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:20.259 It affects people's emotions, their relationships. 00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:25.059 It's, you know, it contributes to disruption, disruption in a lot of ways. 00:31:25.460 --> 00:31:31.059 And so often there's the sense of, like, oh, if we just call it mental illness, are we kind of letting people off the hook, 00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:34.019 and are we not encouraging them to repent? 00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:39.420 But, and this can get sticky, so we're going to try to, try to, oh, thanks, Stephanie. 00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:40.599 Wait, this is as best we can. 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:48.859 So I won't go through all of these in detail, but of course we know that in scripture there is absolutely, 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.519 that we are, there's an emphasis on personal responsibility. 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:57.180 Like, we are sinners that we are accountable to God who created us, 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:03.420 and that is a fundamental reality in scripture that we can't, you know, can't dispute. 00:32:04.340 --> 00:32:08.880 And, you know, there's, there's a few examples here, but that we will reap what we sow. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.860 And Stephanie pointed out this interesting verse yesterday that it will be, 00:32:17.080 --> 00:32:21.080 our work will be revealed with fire, and we'll test the quality of each person's work. 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:27.579 So certainly we are accountable before God for our, for our behavior, for our actions, for our attitudes. 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:28.839 Awesome. 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:29.819 Oh, thank you. 00:32:31.059 --> 00:32:36.000 But there may be ways that we take this emphasis on personal responsibility, 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:42.460 and we might misapply that to some areas involving mental health and mental illness. 00:32:42.460 --> 00:32:44.620 So we made a couple of vignettes here. 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.319 Oh, I forgot to name these two. 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:49.140 I named the vignettes later on in the session. 00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:52.799 So, but first, so I'll just, I'll just read this first one. 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.519 And I think this is not uncommon, honestly. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:01.160 A church member feels so depressed that their concentration and focus is severely impacted, 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.120 and he can no longer focus to read scripture. 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:09.819 He also cannot make it to church because he is unable to get out of bed, even to shower. 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:14.099 However, church friends say his commitment to Christ and to the church body is failing, 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:20.319 which people might, that might be a first assumption if somebody stops coming to church and stops reading scripture, 00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:23.639 and somebody doesn't know sort of what is going on underneath. 00:33:23.779 --> 00:33:26.899 That could actually be a logical assumption to make. 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:33.899 A second vignette, a church member has severe social anxiety and cannot bring herself to attend small group. 00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:40.320 She has tried, but she has multiple panic attacks before leaving the house and cannot get beyond her driveway. 00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:44.860 Other church members are concerned that she is not investing in community. 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:49.480 And again, if somebody doesn't know, that might be an assumption to make. 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:56.160 So that's an example of sort of people not wanting to let somebody off the hook, 00:33:56.660 --> 00:34:01.360 or who might be sort of cautious to attribute somebody's behavior to mental illness, 00:34:01.539 --> 00:34:05.360 lest they be sort of excusing what they see as kind of a failing commitment. 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:10.579 So I really, really love this quote from C.S. Lewis. 00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:20.859 I think I might just read it, because I think it really captures kind of this proposed alternative we would suggest, 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:27.319 which is having grace for one another and humility to recognize that we might not know 00:34:27.319 --> 00:34:30.119 always where somebody is at internally, what they're dealing with. 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:32.239 So C.S. Lewis says, 00:34:32.799 --> 00:34:36.299 The bad psychological material is not a sin, but a disease. 00:34:36.819 --> 00:34:39.639 It does not need to be repented of, but to be cured. 00:34:40.259 --> 00:34:43.420 Human beings judge one another by their external actions. 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:46.039 God judges them by their moral choices. 00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:49.099 When a neurotic, we don't use that term anymore, FYI, 00:34:49.299 --> 00:34:52.619 but at least we don't use it in that way, 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:58.519 who has a pathological horror of cats forces himself to pick up a cat for some good reason, 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:04.239 it is quite possible that in God's eyes he has shown more courage than a healthy man may have shown 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:06.719 in winning the highest honor for military valor. 00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:09.900 That is why Christians are told not to judge. 00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:14.500 We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material, 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:19.259 but God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:23.680 So, I mean, I think that this quote pretty much says it all, 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.300 but going back to those two examples, 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:30.740 or, you know, even different people that we might know in Christian community, 00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:32.480 we see somebody's behavior. 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:37.400 We kind of see the tip of the iceberg, like the glacier poking up out of the water, so to speak, 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.980 of, oh, how friendly do they seem? 00:35:40.160 --> 00:35:43.300 How committed are they to different church events? 00:35:43.540 --> 00:35:45.360 How much are they serving? 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:50.620 Yeah, and that might be some indication of where somebody is at, 00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:54.519 but it could also be that if somebody is struggling with really severe anxiety, 00:35:54.980 --> 00:36:00.500 for them making it to church might be a much greater act of faith and perseverance 00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:03.420 than it might be for somebody else to be serving on five committees. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.460 And I think sometimes we don't always have the categories to see that, 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.200 or a person who's depressed bringing themselves to read the Bible for five minutes, 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:18.099 you know, might actually take a lot more heart, effort, and perseverance 00:36:18.099 --> 00:36:22.399 than it might for somebody else to read the Bible for two hours on their Bible reading plan, right? 00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:25.779 And so just to kind of have the humility to realize, like, oh, we don't, 00:36:26.319 --> 00:36:31.419 especially when it comes to mental illness, like, we don't really know what somebody is going through 00:36:31.419 --> 00:36:33.439 and what, and it's good to ask them. 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:35.119 It's the first step to understanding. 00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:40.460 But it's always good to take a pause if you don't understand someone's behavior 00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:47.400 and they're experiencing mental illness to think about, oh, what are they doing with what they have 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.039 and the energy that they have right now? 00:36:50.819 --> 00:37:01.039 So I guess as a follow-up with that, kind of a, what would be an alternative sort of response 00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:03.059 by the church body to these two individuals? 00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:06.259 So the man who is experiencing, oh, yeah, go for it. 00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:10.199 Well, I'm just thinking, in both of the things that, what disturbed me was that 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:17.119 other church members were saying about this person, well, they've lost their commitment, 00:37:17.420 --> 00:37:21.420 they've lost their, they're losing their faith or whatever, what they should have done 00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:25.299 and it's gone and it's been a better time to be willing to listen. 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:26.119 Yeah. 00:37:26.219 --> 00:37:30.099 You know, I don't know anything about this, but I hear you and I want to, you know, 00:37:30.099 --> 00:37:34.299 how can I help you, kind of walk into church with you, you know, that kind of thing. 00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:41.199 Rather than, what really bothered me about both vignettes was church members were saying 00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:42.460 this about that person. 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.779 And, you know, like, you know, it's just so good for me to hear that, you know, 00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:55.180 we don't know, like, what brain material we're working with, what kind of travel we've gone 00:37:55.180 --> 00:37:59.100 through and how we're working with that and how we're swimming through our day-to-day, 00:37:59.200 --> 00:37:59.940 you know, that kind of thing. 00:38:00.180 --> 00:38:01.240 So, anyway. 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:03.340 That is great. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:06.920 You just gave a better follow-up on the vignettes than I could have. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:07.720 That was awesome. 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:08.719 Exactly. 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.359 I think, you know, I think the best first step, especially if you suspect somebody might 00:38:15.359 --> 00:38:18.959 be dealing with mental illness or if you don't know, but it's always a possibility because 00:38:18.959 --> 00:38:23.959 we know one in five people are, it's always good to ask. 00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:25.939 You know, you don't have to be a counselor to ask. 00:38:26.059 --> 00:38:29.579 You don't have to have any sort of training, but just to be a caring person and saying, 00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:33.899 hey, are you dealing with something, like, is there something difficult going on in your 00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:37.340 life that's making it hard for you to come to these events? 00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:39.579 Or are you dealing with depression? 00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:41.099 And even, like, what's that like? 00:38:41.139 --> 00:38:46.019 You know, as opposed to sort of jumping to conclusions about what they should or shouldn't 00:38:46.019 --> 00:38:50.380 be doing in that given moment, even just taking time to ask, like, how's it going? 00:38:50.539 --> 00:38:51.579 Like, what are you experiencing? 00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.720 And so, yeah, I love your examples. 00:38:53.720 --> 00:38:59.820 And I think there are ways to support people in both of these examples. 00:38:59.820 --> 00:39:04.180 The man who had a hard time making it to church, the woman who had a hard time making it to 00:39:04.180 --> 00:39:09.500 small group, there are ways to support people in engaging with the body of Christ, but it 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:13.340 could look more supportive and less sort of blamey. 00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:18.160 You know, so for instance, I love how you said somebody might need someone to go to church 00:39:18.160 --> 00:39:18.640 with them. 00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:23.360 Like, maybe they feel really anxious and they need someone to drive them and walk in the 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:24.080 door with them. 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:25.320 So a better response. 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:26.440 And sit with them. 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:26.880 Exactly. 00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:27.260 Yeah. 00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:31.620 So a better response than, oh, why aren't you going to church would be like, hey, can 00:39:31.620 --> 00:39:33.680 I accompany you to church? 00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:39.000 And is there any way that I can help support you so that you don't feel so anxious or that 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.720 we can help you, you know, kind of do that. 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.820 So it's not that you have to say, oh, it's fine to never attend church at all. 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.680 But there are ways to approach, oh, is it hard for you to read scripture? 00:39:50.120 --> 00:39:54.900 Let me buy you a subscription to the Dwell app because that might be easier than like trying 00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:57.160 for some people who are depressed. 00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.260 Reading and concentration can be difficult. 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:01.180 Or are you so anxious? 00:40:01.340 --> 00:40:03.220 Like your mind is swirling when you try to read scripture. 00:40:03.720 --> 00:40:05.660 Here's a worship list playlist I can send you. 00:40:05.700 --> 00:40:10.840 There's ways to engage that are more supportive as opposed to why aren't you doing this and 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:11.880 you should be doing it. 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.019 But a good first step is always to just ask. 00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:20.420 And yeah, it's amazing what even asking a simple question about someone's experience 00:40:20.420 --> 00:40:22.539 can kind of open up for them. 00:40:24.619 --> 00:40:28.099 And it might be even just around kind of like starting with an observation, right? 00:40:28.160 --> 00:40:30.640 Like, oh, hey, I've missed you being a small group. 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:32.200 Like what's what's going on? 00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:32.420 Right. 00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:38.280 And yeah, so just kind of even starting with like what you've noticed and expressing a 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:40.980 desire for that person's presence and relationship. 00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:46.460 And I think all the things that you were mentioning about how we support people, right? 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:52.039 It's often easier to think about when somebody, you know, cancer is a very sympathetic disease. 00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:53.780 You know, somebody has cancer. 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:54.860 What do we do? 00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:58.800 And they are so debilitated by chemo that they can't come out. 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.180 We're not like, well, you should come out anyway, right? 00:41:01.179 --> 00:41:02.319 At all costs, right? 00:41:02.419 --> 00:41:05.179 That, you know, they immune deficiency and that kind of a thing. 00:41:06.879 --> 00:41:09.460 But we might bring the service to them, right? 00:41:09.539 --> 00:41:14.019 We visit people who for various disabilities can't get out of their house. 00:41:14.799 --> 00:41:16.139 We bring them meals. 00:41:16.460 --> 00:41:21.279 We really try to support the practical needs and walk alongside them. 00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:28.139 And to, you know, to whatever extent we feel we're able to do that for people with mental 00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:29.719 health issues. 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:34.819 I think that's always a good way to kind of translate, you know, what should we be doing, 00:41:34.899 --> 00:41:35.019 right? 00:41:35.019 --> 00:41:39.099 When you think about somebody who's had a heart attack or a stroke, do we expect them to show 00:41:39.099 --> 00:41:40.159 up to service right away? 00:41:40.299 --> 00:41:42.779 And, you know, there may be seasons where they need intensive care. 00:41:44.319 --> 00:41:49.879 But when we think about physical illness, we often tend to be a little more compassionate 00:41:49.879 --> 00:41:50.739 towards that. 00:41:50.739 --> 00:41:58.779 And I think the other thing, right, is that for sure there is a lot of hurt and brokenness 00:41:58.779 --> 00:42:06.519 that can come, you know, come with mental illness and the ways that it affects our relationships. 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:13.079 And so, you know, there is still room for, you know, when that person is in a season to 00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:21.099 be able to hear that to bring up ways that others have been hurt, to talk through that, to, you know, 00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:23.340 to take accountability for that, right? 00:42:23.380 --> 00:42:30.179 And so, again, an example that I've heard that's been helpful is, you know, somebody's driving a car and 00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:36.679 they have a seizure and they lose control and they, you know, crash into the car in front of them, 00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:44.519 right? And that person obviously needs help for the seizure. And maybe as the person whose car has 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.500 just been damaged, you're not asking for reparations right away. But, you know, the person, when they're 00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:54.539 in a better space, is able to take accountability for, hey, I'm sorry that I, you know, crashed into 00:42:54.539 --> 00:43:01.319 your car. Like, let me make some amends, right? And so, in the same way, for people who are struggling 00:43:01.319 --> 00:43:06.500 with depression and can't get out of bed and have trouble being around other people, 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:13.500 and they can't go to a birthday party, right? Is there, are there kind of things that they can 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:18.980 do along that spectrum? Again, maybe not in that season, but later on to still affirm like, hey, 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:23.319 I'm sorry I missed that birthday party. I was struggling. I still value our relationship. 00:43:24.019 --> 00:43:29.419 You know, here's a card kind of a thing, right? And people who struggle with bipolar disorder, 00:43:30.019 --> 00:43:33.460 which is kind of this constellation of, you know, needing less sleep, but being 00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:40.579 much more disinhibited during a manic or hypomanic episode. And they might be prone to spending a ton 00:43:40.579 --> 00:43:44.659 of money. They might be prone to being more disinhibited around sexual relationships. 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:51.139 There is genuine hurt that happens in relationships as a result of that disease. And again, you know, 00:43:51.139 --> 00:43:57.679 in that moment of going through a manic or hypomanic episode, the goals may be different than 00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:03.179 afterwards it may be, you know, stable stability, but afterwards there are still things to kind of 00:44:03.179 --> 00:44:10.559 work through. There are still things, um, that that person may be able to apologize for. But again, 00:44:10.579 --> 00:44:17.059 I think it's a issue of wisdom of, you know, what is this person able to handle right now? And are we 00:44:17.059 --> 00:44:23.619 able to extend grace for this whole journey and not just expecting them to, you know, do it right away 00:44:23.619 --> 00:44:31.920 on our timeline kind of a thing? So we'd love to hear, I won't go through all of these, but I think 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:41.179 there are a lot of scriptures to, to support, um, yeah, not judging other people and to, to really 00:44:41.179 --> 00:44:46.759 approach people who are suffering with a stance of humility and with grace. Um, so I won't go through 00:44:46.759 --> 00:44:51.239 all these because it, our, our next topic is a big one. We want to be sure we get to that. But, um, 00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:56.639 yeah, just this idea with personal responsibility, do people have questions or experiences or 00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.000 hopefully any objections to that? Alicia? 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:07.199 What if we, like, as a mental health sufferer, are applying this concept of personal responsibility 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.399 to ourselves? Like, why can't I beat this frustration? Do you have any, because it seems like grace and 00:45:13.399 --> 00:45:17.439 humility might be similar strategies to you, but do you have any? 00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:23.460 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like feeling, like feeling self-critical if we're not able to, yeah. 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:29.960 Putting that, like, yeah, condemnation on ourselves, maybe. And then, like, I should be able to go to 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:35.599 church and, you know, being angry with ourselves that, like, depression is keeping us in bed or 00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:40.960 cheating. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really good question and probably a place where a lot of us 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:48.099 find ourselves at times, right? And I think, I think, yeah, remembering God's tender compassion 00:45:48.099 --> 00:45:54.920 for us in those moments and that sense of, like, okay, this is, I may not be capable of all of this 00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:59.519 right now. I may not be able to join five committees at church or lead a small group. Maybe my act of 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:06.500 faithfulness is opening my Bible today and trying to pray, right? And kind of thinking, like, yeah, 00:46:06.500 --> 00:46:12.980 just like that C.S. Lewis quote, that God, God sees those acts of faithfulness, even if it might 00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:20.360 not be something that other people are recognizing or acknowledging as, like, you know, super, super 00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:27.340 committed, but remembering God's compassion. I think that's a great question. Yeah. I think also that's 00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:33.619 where not comparing is really helpful and, you know, recognizing that God is doing individual work in each of us. 00:46:33.619 --> 00:46:40.500 But it is hard because comparison is all around. 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.059 Maybe we'll jump to the third one. 00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:46.480 Yeah, this is a big topic. 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:46.500 This is a big topic. 00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:47.079 Before 10. 00:46:47.319 --> 00:46:47.559 Okay. 00:46:50.500 --> 00:46:57.619 All right. So our third one is, we could probably talk about this for a long time, but, you know, 00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:02.199 we've used the term spiritual bypassing. And I think some of y'all have mentioned, 00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:08.579 you know, the idea of over-spiritualizing things that are, you know, that may have other causes. 00:47:08.579 --> 00:47:14.179 And so just to even define the term of what is spiritual bypassing and why does that make it 00:47:14.179 --> 00:47:23.839 harder for us to talk about our struggles in church communities, spiritual bypassing is using 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:33.380 spiritual explanations to dismiss or avoid complicated emotions or psychological issues or developmental 00:47:33.380 --> 00:47:42.059 needs. And so we came up with a couple, three aspects of that. And so the first one is... 00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:48.500 And I'll say really quick, as I was putting this together, I just want to know, like, we all do all of 00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:52.500 these things. We're not trying to call anyone out. In fact, I was doing, putting this together and I 00:47:52.500 --> 00:47:57.659 was like, oh my goodness, I think I said a spiritual bypassing statement like last week, you know, 00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:03.699 last week. So we're, it's very, it can be very automatic and it's something that we all do, 00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:09.659 including us. So just to keep in mind to have grace for ourselves, even as any spiritual bypassing 00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:16.199 statements we might make. Cause I was like, oh, I'm a psychologist and I spiritually bypass, 00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:19.480 I think quite a bit. So, um, yeah. 00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:28.179 Um, I would say it's a little bit different. So gaslighting would be if somebody says, oh, 00:48:28.179 --> 00:48:33.199 I've gone through this trauma. Somebody would say, oh no, you haven't. Right. Or kind of imply that 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:38.279 they really haven't. Spiritual bypassing is a tendency. Maybe you acknowledge that something 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:43.840 has happened, but you minimize it and you try not to go into depth with it because it feels 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:48.680 uncomfortable. So maybe this vignette will help. And tell me if, if this doesn't make sense of 00:48:48.680 --> 00:48:55.380 the vignette. But, um, so one, one aspect of spiritual bypassing is kind of a detachment from 00:48:55.380 --> 00:49:00.640 feelings or a distrust of feelings as not being something reliable or not something that we should 00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:08.000 sort of explore too deeply. Um, and to focus more on like, I want to think correctly, but I'm going to 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:13.559 try to kind of avoid these feelings. So, um, we'll take Bob. I actually named, I'm so sorry if anyone 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:19.940 here is named Bob, I was trying to choose names that, uh, other, nobody would have. Um, but so Bob 00:49:19.940 --> 00:49:25.139 is finding himself consistently discouraged, disinterested in his activities and low energy. 00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:31.239 He suspects these feelings might result from past trauma. He wonders if he should try to explore these 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:37.260 feelings more, but this feels very uncomfortable. He reminds himself that the heart is deceitful and 00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:44.260 decides it would be more beneficial to pray for God to remove these feelings. Um, so this is a sense 00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:49.960 of like, Oh, like I'm feeling something that's really uncomfortable. I'm feeling maybe a lot of 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:57.260 anger about my past trauma, sadness, like what's happening. Um, but there's a sense of like, it is 00:49:57.260 --> 00:50:03.660 kind of dangerous or uncomfortable or not right to really process these feelings. And it's better to 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:08.379 focus on like, I know it's true and I'm going to keep moving forward. Does that, does that make sense? 00:50:08.379 --> 00:50:15.420 Um, as one aspect of what spiritual bypassing might look like? And we're not saying that prayer 00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:22.219 is wrong. You know, that asking God to remove suffering is wrong, but I, but I think it's that 00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:29.159 we're trying to shortcut around the difficult feelings and just kind of jump to the right answer 00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:35.039 without really. Yeah. I think it's like oversimplifying, minimizing things. Right. So again, 00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:40.299 it's not that like the end goal is wrong. Right. Which is maybe to pray for healing, but it's that 00:50:40.299 --> 00:50:43.539 like, we just kind of want to jump to that without any of the process in between. 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:50.379 For people who use the term spiritual bondage, to me, it's kind of a generalized, simplified, 00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:58.619 getting into the integrity. Yep. Yep. And as we'll talk about, we might do this 00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:04.699 to other people because we're uncomfortable with what they might be feeling or talking about. And 00:51:04.699 --> 00:51:08.799 it seems really complicated and it's like, I don't really want to dive into that. So I'm going to 00:51:08.799 --> 00:51:15.219 kind of like use, right. Like say it kind of a more statement to kind of stay away from that. Or we 00:51:15.219 --> 00:51:20.299 might do it to ourselves, um, for different reasons, which we'll, we'll talk about. So let's do another 00:51:20.299 --> 00:51:27.059 example here. Um, so another aspect we do, and I totally do this. I was, as I was writing this, 00:51:27.059 --> 00:51:33.679 I was like, Oh, I do this all the time, um, is overemphasizing the positive. Um, and so, 00:51:33.940 --> 00:51:39.320 so let's take Wanda again. I hope nobody's named Wanda. Um, but Wanda's panic attacks and anxiety 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.619 have been getting worse and worse. She's having trouble eating, sleeping, and going to work. 00:51:43.799 --> 00:51:48.619 She wants to share with her small group, but she worries these symptoms will reflect poorly on her 00:51:48.619 --> 00:51:54.039 spiritual life. She decides it would be safest to mention it in passing, but not share the depth of 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:58.880 her feelings. When a friend at small group asks how she's doing, she says, I've been a bit anxious, 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:03.920 but I'm so grateful for the many blessings God has given me. Her friend smiles and moves on. 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:11.279 Wanda realizes no one knows how much she's struggling. So again, it's not wrong for Wanda to say that she's 00:52:11.279 --> 00:52:15.320 grateful for the blessings. Certainly that is an important aspect of our spiritual life, 00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:22.660 but is Wanda using it in that moment because she actually is expressing all of her gratitude or she 00:52:22.660 --> 00:52:30.059 using it to kind of maybe cover up like how she's really doing? Cause you know, if, if Wanda's not 00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:35.220 sleeping, eating or able to go to work, like I would hope that her friend might know, you know, 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:40.480 that she might need people's support, might need people to kind of come alongside her and really know, 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:46.059 but sometimes we can use these spiritual explanations, um, to kind of keep people from 00:52:46.059 --> 00:52:51.559 really seeing us, I think too. Um, so one more example, and then we'll get to some discussion. 00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:57.380 Um, and this is maybe more of what, what you were sharing about, but, um, impersonal spiritual 00:52:57.380 --> 00:53:02.920 responses to vulnerable concerns. And there can be some cliche phrases that we might use like this 00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:08.440 too shall pass or, you know, different things, but, um, Randall struggling with depression, 00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:12.820 which has worsened because it is nearing the fifth anniversary of his late wife's passing. 00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:17.780 He reaches out to a friend from church to ask for support, but his friend appears very 00:53:17.780 --> 00:53:23.539 uncomfortable and replies, time will heal all wounds. Just keep trusting the Lord. Randall gets the 00:53:23.539 --> 00:53:28.019 feeling that his friend doesn't really want to hear about his feelings and decides to keep his 00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:35.760 concerns to himself. And again, it's not that it's bad to encourage a friend to keep trusting the Lord, 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:41.780 but the, the way of saying a statement, you know, can, it can be very different. Are you entering 00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:47.260 into somebody's feelings and really trying to like go into that messy complication with them? 00:53:47.640 --> 00:53:54.540 Or are you trying to say a statement to sort of like smooth it or self and make things sound better? 00:53:54.640 --> 00:54:00.720 And we all do this. I think it's really, really common for us included. Um, and I, and I think 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:05.599 they're linked that when we kind of spiritually bypass or minimize the messiness of our own, 00:54:05.739 --> 00:54:09.639 it's, we're kind of like, well, why can't you do the same? Right? Like, why can't you just suck 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:14.980 it up and get over it? Cause I did. And so I think that spiritually bypassing ourselves can link to 00:54:14.980 --> 00:54:24.839 how we treat other people. Um, so any, before we move on, um, do people have either questions about 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:31.519 spiritual bypassing or maybe like what it is or maybe any other examples of that that you might 00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:34.680 share or think of? 00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:43.059 Can I ask you guys to process a little more of the idea of distrusting feelings? Um, and I say 00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:48.919 that's because I look at our culture and our culture right now is trusting their feelings very well. 00:54:48.919 --> 00:55:01.039 Um, in the sense of the way that anger and, and the, the breakdown of common decency seems to be fueled 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:07.219 by this. This is how I feel and I'm just going to live it out of here. So I'm just wondering how you guys 00:55:07.219 --> 00:55:13.739 think through this, like, because it seems like as Christians, there is a sense where our feelings 00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:20.199 are important and yet there's also a place where our feelings shouldn't be ultimate in determining how 00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:26.360 we live and, you know, often, and sometimes in our culture, it feels like our feelings determine our, 00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:34.280 our reality and define, uh, or in, you know, our justify our any action because I feel this way. 00:55:34.420 --> 00:55:41.059 So how would you nuance distrusting feelings in light of what I'm thinking? 00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:45.360 Yeah. Great question. That's a really good question. Yeah. I think that's really interesting 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:50.220 because I was, I was going to say, I think like with, you know, the culture that maybe we're reacting 00:55:50.220 --> 00:55:55.840 to was kind of this post enlightenment, like over rational, everything must be like scientifically 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:02.900 inquired about Descartes. Like I think, therefore I am right. And I think this is kind of a swing at 00:56:02.900 --> 00:56:07.340 which minimizes emotions and is like, you know, you have to think the right way. And then we've 00:56:07.340 --> 00:56:14.180 swung to the other end of the pendulum of, you know, feeling, feelings mean it, it must be true. 00:56:14.640 --> 00:56:19.460 And I, and it may actually be just kind of like a cultural response to kind of all these things 00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:26.440 where we've just kind of been trying to sweep things under the rug. Um, I think it's, I mean, 00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:33.019 and you may have a different response, but I think of emotions less, right. Like they don't have the 00:56:33.019 --> 00:56:39.980 final word, but rather than saying, I shouldn't feel this way. I wonder what is this telling, 00:56:39.980 --> 00:56:46.780 like, what information are, is my feelings, are my feelings giving me, right? Like I feel sad and 00:56:46.780 --> 00:56:51.500 frustrated and angry rather than saying, well, that has no place because I should just be joyful. 00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:59.639 It's like, okay, well, what information are my emotions telling me about this situation that maybe 00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:07.039 I wasn't even aware of. Right. And I think there's also that distinction between, you know, you can't 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:13.039 change necessarily, or you can't will yourself with the feelings necessarily. That's a little tricky, 00:57:13.179 --> 00:57:18.559 but also the actions of what we do, right? So it's like in your anger, do not sin, but it's not like, 00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:23.239 don't be angry. It's just, you know, what are the actions that flow from emotions? And I think, 00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:28.320 you know, in, in kind of like this cultural moment, it's not just, oh, my feelings are rampant. 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:34.259 It's my feelings are rampant and therefore I'm going to call out everybody, you know? And so there's 00:57:34.260 --> 00:57:40.660 that action that is linked with feeling that, but also, you know, why are people feeling so 00:57:40.660 --> 00:57:48.120 upset and sad and heartbroken, I think is important for us to at least engage with. 00:57:49.020 --> 00:57:55.680 I think too, I think of an example, I do a lot of treating anxiety disorders and phobias and OCD. And so 00:57:55.680 --> 00:58:02.380 one example I think of is like somebody might have an extreme amount of anxiety about like, 00:58:02.380 --> 00:58:09.680 let's say leaving the house, like with agoraphobia. And that is a real emotion. Like there's true, 00:58:09.900 --> 00:58:15.300 legitimate, debilitating panic, but as a psychologist, it would not be good for me to say, 00:58:15.380 --> 00:58:20.079 okay, because you feel that let's follow that and stay home, right? Like that would be actively 00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:26.539 detrimental. And like, that would not be ethical, right? Like what, what I should do is say, 00:58:26.539 --> 00:58:31.559 that is so real. Let's talk about that. And we have to do exposure, which is a whole other 00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:39.900 conversation we have, but exposure therapy is kind of like progressively and incrementally exposing 00:58:39.900 --> 00:58:44.159 someone to their fear. Like, can you go to your driveway? Can you go to your car? Can you go to 00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:50.279 Safeway? You know, whatever. And so the idea is not to say, oh, don't tell me about your anxiety. 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:54.079 You shouldn't be anxious because that'll just keep somebody stuck where they are. 00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:59.559 But to say like, okay, that's really real. Now, how do we still move you in the direction that you 00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:05.940 need to go to heal? Does that make sense? But yeah, I think that's a good question. Because even as a 00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:14.059 therapist, sometimes I'm like, you know, people like following the impulses of our feelings can be 00:59:14.059 --> 00:59:15.139 detrimental. Yeah, John. 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:22.440 One of the things that I could mistakenly take from this is, oh, okay, I'm not gonna, 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.800 I'm not gonna bring these spiritual truths to bear on this sort of circumstance. 00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:30.159 Because in the end, that would probably be mistaken. Because at the end of the day, 00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:35.240 probably these spiritual truths are really germane to that. And maybe the helpful thing about 00:59:35.240 --> 00:59:45.880 the notion is simply the bypass. It's not the adjective spiritual. It's just, am I truncating 00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:53.140 the process here? So when I'm trying to get to church and I hit a red light and I get really, 00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:58.000 really angry, I could stop myself and just say, shoot, I shouldn't be angry. That's not glorifying 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:06.400 the Lord. But I'm not getting to what, I'm doing a bypass in the sense of, I'm failing to do some 01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:14.579 sort of deeper engagement with it to figure out where to bring the spiritual truths to bear. 01:00:15.019 --> 01:00:24.519 I realize, oh my goodness, I, why am I so upset? Well, I think I'm losing control. I can't, why do I 01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:32.119 think I am in control today? But, oh, wait a minute. God is in control. I'm not in control. So once I begin to see 01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:39.199 what the problem is, then I need to bring those spiritual truths. The Lord reigns. Let the earth rejoice. 01:00:39.759 --> 01:00:46.980 These things are in his hands. I can trust him. So it seems like the very useful thing in my mind 01:00:46.980 --> 01:00:54.659 is this notion of bypass. It's not that these spiritual truths are not going to actually be the key. 01:00:54.659 --> 01:01:03.420 But it's discerning where precisely to bring them to bear. And we can miss that if we're just trying 01:01:03.420 --> 01:01:11.059 to stuff, I guess, the expressions of these things. I wonder if that, I mean, that's a question, 01:01:11.179 --> 01:01:17.059 that's an invitation to comment because I'm trying to discern here. 01:01:17.339 --> 01:01:21.299 Absolutely. No, I'm glad you brought that up exactly because I think it's, yeah, 01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:28.039 in their scriptural support for not necessarily minimizing negative emotions. I might've changed 01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:32.760 that a little bit, but their scriptural support for the idea that like we don't need to despair, 01:01:32.860 --> 01:01:38.820 right? And that there is always hope and we can, um, that God is working all things together for good. 01:01:38.940 --> 01:01:45.060 And certainly, yeah, I think the bypass is the key, not the spiritual part. I think as there, 01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:51.400 there's many other ways to bypass, um, for those who are not people of faith. So for instance, 01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:55.880 all your people bypass who might not be Christians or religious at all. And they say, 01:01:56.279 --> 01:02:00.940 oh, things are rough, but I'm fine. It's okay. I'm having a good day. Like that's a bypass too. 01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:09.219 And I think as Christians, we might tend more to use spiritual language and sort of co-opt it as a part 01:02:09.219 --> 01:02:15.059 of our bypass just because that's part of our, you know, common, um, ways of speaking with each 01:02:15.059 --> 01:02:20.899 other. However, it's not because the spiritual, it's not the spiritual principle, which is wrong. 01:02:20.939 --> 01:02:27.000 That is the correct foundational principle of our lives and our healing, but it's the way that we 01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:32.719 use it or apply it for our own purposes to kind of stuff emotion is kind of how I think about it. 01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:40.359 Is that, yeah. And I think the particular tricky part is that on the surface, it seems very spiritual 01:02:40.359 --> 01:02:46.079 and appropriate and good. Right. And so like, how can you argue with these, you know, God truths? 01:02:46.359 --> 01:02:50.480 Right. And so I think that makes it even more tricky to say, yeah, like those things are true. 01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:57.099 And there are all of these other things that I'm dealing with. Um, but I think that's a good segue 01:02:57.099 --> 01:03:05.880 into kind of our proposed alternative, which is the idea of lament and celebration. And so, um, 01:03:06.059 --> 01:03:10.880 Soon Chan Ra is someone who's written a lot about lamentations and he's written a book called 01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:16.839 prophetic lament. Um, and he talks a lot about, you know, how the American church in particular, 01:03:16.839 --> 01:03:23.440 because it's been quite privileged and prosperous has kind of forgotten the language of lament. Um, 01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:33.679 and so he talks about how lament is honesty before God and each other. Um, and, and that healing, 01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:41.099 right. Bringing shalom is requires really engaging with the other person so that we're all cohering 01:03:41.099 --> 01:03:46.720 together and not so much, you know, diminishing what they're experiencing so that we can celebrate, 01:03:46.820 --> 01:03:51.300 you know, God's risenness and that kind of thing, but really understanding how that brokenness 01:03:51.300 --> 01:04:01.160 is getting in the way of having a just society where God's kingdom can be felt more. Um, so it's to, 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:09.400 again, not deny that Jesus brings life, but also to not deny that there is a lot of death and brokenness 01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:16.519 and hurt in our midst. So this importance of lamenting first before we jump to the celebration. 01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:25.099 And so we, yeah, we, we talked a little bit about how, if we spiritually bypass ourselves, 01:04:25.099 --> 01:04:31.119 we can do that to other people. And just even this idea of, you know, being mindful of how, 01:04:31.300 --> 01:04:36.400 you know, as a body of Christ, right, when one person is suffering, the whole part suffers. And to 01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:41.860 what degree do we feel the suffering of other people in our body? 01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:48.440 Yeah. And the, and I guess the second point is actually, John, what you were saying, right? Like 01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:52.539 that I think for ourselves, we're sometimes kind of like, you know, oh, this doesn't matter, but in 01:04:52.539 --> 01:04:58.099 the way, or we're kind of like glossing it over with like Jesus is risen. But I think there's a way 01:04:58.099 --> 01:05:05.860 in which when we delve into the specifics of what we're struggling with, that how Jesus meets us 01:05:05.860 --> 01:05:11.099 becomes that much more rich because it is specific. And I think about the ways that, you know, 01:05:11.099 --> 01:05:16.319 God could have just called himself, I am who I am, but there's also all of these other scriptural 01:05:16.319 --> 01:05:21.400 names for Jesus that speak to how people have experienced him, right? Like, so where do we 01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:26.199 need to see how God provides? Where do we need to see how God is our banner? How do we need to see 01:05:26.199 --> 01:05:32.059 how God fights for us in these different circumstances? Call out the beauty of who God 01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:38.559 and Jesus are in a way that we might not be able to experience if we're just like, oh, like Jesus is Lord, 01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:47.000 right? And so this like lamenting and inviting God into our suffering allows us to see really how 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:53.279 Jesus meets us specifically. And we think about the ways that Jesus heals. Sometimes it's with a word. 01:05:53.619 --> 01:05:58.699 Sometimes it's from a distance. Sometimes it's with spit, something really visceral, right? And, you know, 01:05:58.699 --> 01:06:04.039 he could have healed anyway. He chose, but there was something about that interaction that he knew the 01:06:04.039 --> 01:06:09.119 other person would benefit from. And I think in the same ways we can't under, we don't understand 01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:15.099 the depth of who God is until we've kind of entered into the depth of what we're struggling with. 01:06:16.619 --> 01:06:23.380 See, I think to your good point, John, it's yeah, that, that truth is so a truth like, um, 01:06:23.380 --> 01:06:30.660 you know, Jesus has risen is so true all the time and we'll have deeper levels of meaning. 01:06:31.539 --> 01:06:37.619 If we enter into like what we're feeling ourselves and understand how Jesus risen, this comes to bear 01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:43.760 on that. Or if we really enter in with somebody else, um, in their darkness and understood to 01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:49.160 understand how Jesus risen, this will come to bear on that. Um, cause we might, we might actually 01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:57.239 diminish the power of that if we sort of use it as a bypass. So it's actually kind of a, 01:06:57.539 --> 01:07:05.579 it is a way of, um, like emphasizing the power of that more, um, rather than using it for our own, 01:07:05.579 --> 01:07:11.799 using a phrase and even a true phrase for our own purpose of sort of avoiding somebody else's emotion. 01:07:12.699 --> 01:07:17.940 Um, is I guess what we propose, but yeah, what are, what are thoughts about that or questions or 01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:25.360 concerns even about that? Cause it is, yeah, a complex topic for sure. 01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:34.519 I wanted to ask like, if you guys had suggestions on how we can, and I think you're maybe getting 01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:39.760 there, I don't know, but like actual practical things to put in place to say, like when we're 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:44.960 sitting with a friend who's bearing their heart on like, I feel lonely and I feel like God's not with 01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:50.679 me or this is an example. Um, and in that moment you want to remind them like the truth you need 01:07:50.679 --> 01:07:57.559 to know is that God is always with you. He has given you the spirit to be in your pain with you. 01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:03.780 How do you say that without bypassing, like without minimizing what they're dealing with, but rather 01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:12.119 how can we practically lament with them, but also provide the truth that as someone who's maybe not 01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:17.659 dealing with that can actually speak into that and be a bearer? Yeah. How can we faithfully do that 01:08:17.659 --> 01:08:28.059 without like destroying them? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a, yeah, that's a really good 01:08:28.059 --> 01:08:33.119 question. I mean, the first couple of thoughts that come to mind are, you know, it might be right 01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:38.460 that there, what, what do we have in common is scripture, right? And the spirit. And so it might 01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:44.600 be sharing a verse and reading it together and then even asking them, you know, how does that, 01:08:44.779 --> 01:08:49.159 does that resonate with you or does that feel super far from where you're at? Right. And giving them 01:08:49.159 --> 01:08:55.460 room to let you know that, yeah, like I read this, but I don't, I'm not there yet. Right. And so I think 01:08:55.460 --> 01:09:02.880 just giving people space to, you know, be able to object or be able to say, you know, that doesn't feel 01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:07.140 true right now and that's okay. And I think one of the things we wanted to bring up was, you know, 01:09:07.140 --> 01:09:13.560 that there are so many Psalms of lament that 40% of the Psalms we have are lament. And yet, you know, 01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:21.520 only like 15% of the songs we sing in church service are, are that, but, but I think that it's 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:29.119 so important to look at the Psalms as kind of expressions of emotion that are still oriented 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:33.979 towards the Lord. And I really love Psalm 88 because, I mean, there are a lot of Psalms that 01:09:33.979 --> 01:09:39.260 are like, why are you, you know, downcast on my soul, look to God. Right. But then Psalm 88 is this 01:09:39.260 --> 01:09:45.880 great example of, you know, who's going to praise you when, when I'm dead, you know, like, where are you 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:52.359 help? But then it also ends on darkness is my closest friend, right? Darkness is closer to me than God 01:09:52.359 --> 01:09:58.479 right now. Right. But it's still, it starts with still crying out to the Lord. And I think that 01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:05.000 so often in like one meeting with a friend, we want to be able to say all of these truths, right. 01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:10.719 And, and we want to do all of it. And it may just be like, like the Psalm, right. That, you know, 01:10:10.739 --> 01:10:17.239 only part of that can be done or received in a certain way in that meeting. And that's not to say, 01:10:17.299 --> 01:10:21.479 like, as you continue to walk with that person, that not, you're not bringing those truths to bear, 01:10:21.479 --> 01:10:27.239 but maybe it can't be done in one hour, all of it. Right. And it's okay to sit in silence or to 01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:34.719 sit with that person and their suffering without, you know, forcing them to kind of acknowledge 01:10:34.719 --> 01:10:39.379 something they're not able to do right now. Yeah. I think to John's point too, it can be, 01:10:39.779 --> 01:10:48.379 oh, actually real quick, I'll say a matter of timing. Like, oh yes. Have you really asked the 01:10:48.380 --> 01:10:56.539 questions and waited to hear from the person and understand like the very messy, uncomfortable, 01:10:57.900 --> 01:11:02.600 painful, debilitating things they're feeling before you bring the truth to bear? So I think 01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:06.319 oftentimes it's not a matter of, do you bring it or not? I think as Christians, we should, and that 01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:12.000 we should encourage each other in our hope in Christ, but to make sure you're not using it as a 01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:17.060 bypass, have you made sure to ask the questions and even maybe sit in silence with like, wow, 01:11:17.060 --> 01:11:23.060 that is a really debilitating feeling. I'm so sorry. And then bring the truth to bear. So I think 01:11:23.060 --> 01:11:29.420 oftentimes it's a matter of timing and entering and before bringing it, which can be helpful. Sorry. 01:11:29.420 --> 01:11:30.699 Yeah. There's two comments over here. 01:11:31.420 --> 01:11:31.579 I know. 01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:34.420 I know. 01:11:34.420 --> 01:11:35.420 You know, I know. 01:11:35.420 --> 01:11:36.420 I know. 01:11:36.420 --> 01:11:38.420 You know, I know. 01:11:38.420 --> 01:11:39.420 I know. 01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:40.420 I know. 01:11:40.420 --> 01:11:46.420 And how, you know, how, how we just struggle and suffer. And I think it's so easy for us 01:11:46.420 --> 01:11:53.420 to want to fix, you know, to fix each other. You know, I mean, I feel hard when I'm not trying 01:11:53.420 --> 01:11:59.420 to walk into church with a very pun about the Bible. So I mean, we're all suffering in a 01:11:59.420 --> 01:12:03.420 lot of ways. And I think it's hard, it's hard to understand that. It's hard to feel that 01:12:03.420 --> 01:12:09.420 for other people. But to sit with somebody and really feel their self, feel their loneliness, 01:12:09.420 --> 01:12:15.420 it's a lot harder than trying to fix it. But you said, you know, it's easier if you should 01:12:15.420 --> 01:12:19.420 sit with them and then encourage them having time to. 01:12:19.420 --> 01:12:20.420 Mm-hmm. 01:12:20.420 --> 01:12:21.420 Mm-hmm. 01:12:21.420 --> 01:12:22.420 Yeah. 01:12:22.420 --> 01:12:23.420 Yeah. 01:12:23.420 --> 01:12:24.420 Yeah. 01:12:24.420 --> 01:12:25.420 Yeah. 01:12:25.420 --> 01:12:32.420 You basically said it was basically the, you're bypassing when you aren't engaging with 01:12:32.420 --> 01:12:40.420 what's going on. Right? And so if you're just, you know, you hear what they said, you know, 01:12:40.420 --> 01:12:45.420 you shouldn't feel that way, you kind of scoff, blah, blah, blah. Like that's bypassing. 01:12:45.420 --> 01:12:46.420 Mm-hmm. 01:12:46.420 --> 01:12:52.420 To instead is, can you tell me more about how that feels or what you're going through? 01:12:52.420 --> 01:12:54.420 Or, let me try to understand that feeling. 01:12:54.420 --> 01:12:55.420 Yeah. 01:12:55.420 --> 01:13:01.420 And then you can apply scripture actually more elegantly because now you have a better 01:13:01.420 --> 01:13:10.420 idea of what's actually going on. And I think that's the key is trying to understand 01:13:10.420 --> 01:13:17.420 what's actually inside rather than what you heard and the immediate response with, 01:13:17.420 --> 01:13:19.420 well, you're the man they put on. 01:13:19.420 --> 01:13:20.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:20.420 --> 01:13:21.420 Yeah. 01:13:21.420 --> 01:13:22.420 Yeah. 01:13:22.420 --> 01:13:26.420 I just, I, I volunteered at a women's abuse shelter for a couple of years. 01:13:26.420 --> 01:13:27.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:27.420 --> 01:13:29.420 And I just found that the best thing to do is just listen. 01:13:29.420 --> 01:13:30.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:30.420 --> 01:13:31.420 Yeah. 01:13:31.420 --> 01:13:32.420 Don't interject. 01:13:32.420 --> 01:13:33.420 You know, let them talk. 01:13:33.420 --> 01:13:34.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:34.420 --> 01:13:35.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:35.420 --> 01:13:37.420 And that was the best thing for them. 01:13:37.420 --> 01:13:38.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:38.420 --> 01:13:42.420 And I think that's a good segue on kind of what we'll end on, which is just even when 01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.420 we look at how Jesus heals. 01:13:44.420 --> 01:13:49.420 I love the story in John 11 where Lazarus dies. 01:13:50.420 --> 01:13:53.420 Both Mary and Martha kind of accuse him, right? 01:13:53.420 --> 01:13:56.420 Like if you had come here sooner, we wouldn't be in this position. 01:13:56.420 --> 01:13:57.420 Mm-hmm. 01:13:57.420 --> 01:13:59.420 We wouldn't be grieving like this. 01:13:59.420 --> 01:14:02.420 And to Mary, he says, truth, right? 01:14:02.420 --> 01:14:04.420 I am the resurrection. 01:14:04.420 --> 01:14:05.420 He asks questions. 01:14:05.420 --> 01:14:10.420 And to Martha, she gets to invite him to come and see. 01:14:10.420 --> 01:14:15.420 And he bears witness to her grief and he weeps, right? 01:14:15.420 --> 01:14:21.420 And so I think Jesus is able to hold those so well in tension and both, right? 01:14:21.420 --> 01:14:26.420 And that there may be a person at a particular season who needs to hear the truth of who Jesus 01:14:26.420 --> 01:14:31.420 is and there may be another person who really just needs to be wept with. 01:14:31.420 --> 01:14:36.420 And Jesus, you know, follows, you know, goes to the tomb. 01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:39.420 He doesn't go, you know, he doesn't stand at a distance. 01:14:39.420 --> 01:14:41.420 He's invited in. 01:14:41.420 --> 01:14:46.420 And I think in the same ways we as a church should be thinking about, you know, have we, 01:14:46.420 --> 01:14:51.420 before we're jumping to these, you know, truths again, right, have we been touched so deeply 01:14:51.420 --> 01:14:56.420 by other people's sufferings in the way that Jesus has, you know, have we wept over somebody 01:14:56.420 --> 01:15:01.420 else's suffering before we bring, you know, these truths. 01:15:03.420 --> 01:15:06.420 And yeah, I think it's never a bad thing to ask. 01:15:06.420 --> 01:15:11.420 Like I think to Jessica's question, if somebody's really struggling and suffering and they're 01:15:11.420 --> 01:15:16.420 sharing with you, it's never bad to ask like, hey, do you think it would be most helpful 01:15:16.420 --> 01:15:21.420 to open scripture together or do you need me to make you dinner or what do you or do you 01:15:21.420 --> 01:15:22.420 need me to just listen? 01:15:22.420 --> 01:15:23.420 You know, it's never bad. 01:15:23.420 --> 01:15:27.420 Honestly, people often have a pretty good idea or have some idea about what would feel more 01:15:27.420 --> 01:15:28.420 helpful. 01:15:28.420 --> 01:15:35.420 And you can communicate those truths, those truths of scripture, oftentimes by sharing 01:15:35.420 --> 01:15:39.420 scripture and also sometimes by making them dinner, you know, can be another way of revealing 01:15:39.420 --> 01:15:40.420 the truth of scripture. 01:15:40.420 --> 01:15:42.420 So it's never bad to ask. 01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:51.420 John 16, 12, Jesus says, I have so much that I need to communicate to you, but you're not 01:15:51.420 --> 01:15:52.420 able to bear it yet. 01:15:53.420 --> 01:15:54.420 So it doesn't. 01:15:55.420 --> 01:15:59.420 So it's in one sense, we're not just teaching truths, we're teaching people. 01:16:00.420 --> 01:16:04.420 We have to taper that to what they have a capacity to receive at that time. 01:16:04.420 --> 01:16:06.420 That makes a lot of sense. 01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:07.420 Yeah. 01:16:07.420 --> 01:16:08.420 Yeah. 01:16:08.420 --> 01:16:13.420 And then once you've made them dinner and sat with them and they've got their medication 01:16:13.420 --> 01:16:19.420 starts working or, you know, like, sometimes we need to, yeah, honestly, we might need to 01:16:19.420 --> 01:16:20.420 pull back. 01:16:20.420 --> 01:16:21.420 Yeah. 01:16:21.420 --> 01:16:24.420 One of my favorite stories is the story of Elijah. 01:16:24.420 --> 01:16:26.420 I think we're good for children. 01:16:26.420 --> 01:16:33.420 But when he basically is sitting under a tree and he prays to the Lord, Lord, let me die. 01:16:34.420 --> 01:16:40.420 And God's response to him is to send an angel and the angel tells him to eat and then sleep. 01:16:40.420 --> 01:16:44.420 And then he wakes up again and then the angel feeds him and tells him to go out to sleep. 01:16:44.420 --> 01:16:47.420 And then he like walks for 40 days and there's a lot going on. 01:16:47.420 --> 01:16:54.420 But it isn't until like he's eaten and he's sleeping and God has cared for his physical 01:16:54.420 --> 01:17:00.420 needs that we get that beautiful passage about God's voice not being in the thunder or in 01:17:00.420 --> 01:17:03.420 the raging wind, but rather in a still, small voice. 01:17:03.420 --> 01:17:12.420 But I think the, yeah, just the beauty of like God knew that like God's first response to 01:17:12.420 --> 01:17:17.420 his despair and distress and sorrow was not like, okay, well, I'm God. 01:17:17.420 --> 01:17:20.420 Like I've commissioned you on good things. 01:17:20.420 --> 01:17:21.420 Believe me. 01:17:21.420 --> 01:17:22.420 And like, get out there. 01:17:22.420 --> 01:17:29.420 But was rather to like gently care and minister and know that what he needed right there was 01:17:29.420 --> 01:17:30.420 a good meal and some sleep. 01:17:30.420 --> 01:17:39.420 And then, yeah, to like not rush, but rather to like kind of, I think, especially in sitting 01:17:39.420 --> 01:17:44.420 with people with mental illness, you kind of got to sign up for the long haul. 01:17:44.420 --> 01:17:49.420 Like sometimes we interact in one conversation and I think God can really use that. 01:17:49.420 --> 01:17:53.420 But I think there are ways that it's just a longer walk. 01:17:53.420 --> 01:17:54.420 Yeah. 01:17:54.420 --> 01:17:55.420 Yeah. 01:17:55.420 --> 01:17:56.420 That's a great point. 01:17:56.420 --> 01:18:00.420 I'm linking to Jessica's question too, about when do we say a scripture truth? 01:18:00.420 --> 01:18:01.420 How do we know? 01:18:01.420 --> 01:18:08.420 Like to even consider like the length and the sort of depth of our relationship with someone. 01:18:08.420 --> 01:18:16.420 Like if you've had a friend over the long haul who has walked with you and things, and that 01:18:16.420 --> 01:18:19.420 might be a time more when they're feeling discouraged, you say, hey, remember this truth 01:18:19.420 --> 01:18:24.420 because you've sort of sat with them and all of these different moments of despair. 01:18:24.420 --> 01:18:28.420 Whereas if you just met with somebody and it's your first conversation, that might be a 01:18:28.420 --> 01:18:30.420 time to ask them more of what they need. 01:18:30.420 --> 01:18:36.420 So both timing and like, what is the depth of relational experience that you have with 01:18:36.420 --> 01:18:37.420 someone? 01:18:37.420 --> 01:18:42.420 Or like if you're first time meeting someone in church and you know, let's say I just met 01:18:42.420 --> 01:18:45.420 Stephanie and she's like, oh, I'm really struggling. 01:18:45.420 --> 01:18:51.420 It might probably be a time for me to ask more as opposed to me saying like, well, remember 01:18:51.420 --> 01:18:52.420 to trust God, right? 01:18:52.420 --> 01:19:02.420 And I'm going to be, but if I know Stephanie over a long period of time, which I guess I 01:19:02.420 --> 01:19:04.420 have and Stephanie's like, oh, I'm really struggling. 01:19:04.420 --> 01:19:09.420 That might be a time when I could be like, hey, remember like what God has done. 01:19:09.420 --> 01:19:10.420 You know? 01:19:10.420 --> 01:19:13.420 So I think that there's, there's that consideration as well. 01:19:13.420 --> 01:19:14.420 Um, these are great questions. 01:19:14.420 --> 01:19:15.420 Yeah. 01:19:15.420 --> 01:19:16.420 Thank you. 01:19:16.420 --> 01:19:17.420 Yeah. 01:19:17.420 --> 01:19:21.420 Well, I know it's almost 1030, but we'll stay around for more questions. 01:19:21.420 --> 01:19:27.420 So maybe just as a, I think to end on, I mean, this is an open question and I think our church 01:19:27.420 --> 01:19:31.420 is already doing this by the fact that we're all here talking about this, but, um, just something 01:19:31.420 --> 01:19:37.420 to consider, like, what would it mean if we were marked by these kinds of nuanced understandings 01:19:37.420 --> 01:19:42.420 about mental illness and grace, humility, vulnerability. 01:19:42.420 --> 01:19:46.420 Um, and then as Stephanie mentioned, kind of this joining of lament and celebration, like, 01:19:46.420 --> 01:19:52.420 I just think that would be a very safe and flourishing community to, to support one another 01:19:52.420 --> 01:19:55.420 with, um, mental health struggles. 01:19:55.420 --> 01:20:00.420 Um, and obviously because we're sinners on the side of heaven, we have a long way to go 01:20:00.420 --> 01:20:06.420 in that, but just some, just some principles to kind of imagine as we, as we go forward. 01:20:06.420 --> 01:20:07.420 Yeah. 01:20:07.420 --> 01:20:11.420 So in the next couple of weeks, we'll dive more into, you know, like when you do seek 01:20:11.420 --> 01:20:15.420 therapy, like, does your therapist need to be Christian for it to be valid and kind of 01:20:15.420 --> 01:20:17.420 the suspicions people might have. 01:20:17.420 --> 01:20:22.420 And so bring your questions and objections to that as well, that that will be for the 01:20:22.420 --> 01:20:23.420 next couple of weeks. 01:20:23.420 --> 01:20:28.420 We welcome suspicions about our, we will not be offended. 01:20:28.420 --> 01:20:31.420 I, we have some suspicions about our profession too. 01:20:31.420 --> 01:20:32.420 Yeah. 01:20:32.420 --> 01:20:33.420 All right. 01:20:33.420 --> 01:20:34.420 Thank you. 01:20:34.420 --> 01:20:35.420 Thank you. 01:20:35.420 --> 01:20:36.420 Thank you.