Alrighty, guys.
It is 9 o'clock,
so why don't we jump in
!
Lord, we ask that you would bless this time
and help us all to grow closer to you.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Amen.
Alright.
Well, we're back again
after a snow hiatus.
And you may be wondering,
why are we back again?
Didn't we spend the entire last class
talking about how everybody disagrees
about what Genesis 1 says?
Why are we even talking about it anymore, right?
And if that's how you're feeling,
I'd like to start the class
by giving you a word of exhortation.
And that is,
if any interpretation we have of Scripture,
anything that we advocate for,
makes us feel like we can ignore Scripture
or avoid it,
or avoid wrestling with the text,
then I submit to you that it must be wrong.
If you're adopting an interpretation
that says,
I can just ignore this part of Scripture,
I don't have to read it,
I don't have to think about it,
then I think you should reconsider.
Because our interpretations
shouldn't be licensed to dismiss God's Word.
And ultimately,
our job is to sit under the teaching of Scripture
as a good audience,
even if we're not sure
of every aspect of the text,
every part of it, right?
And even if we all disagree
about parts of the text,
it doesn't mean we don't keep on coming back
and trying to learn
and trying to understand.
So with that exhortation,
why don't we start by reading
the portion of our text
that we're going to be considering today.
Can somebody read for me?
Yeah.
Oh, here we are.
You have your hand up.
Can somebody read for me
Genesis 1,
verses 20 through 25?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's page 1.
20 through 25.
And God said,
let the waters bring forth abundantly
as it was good as it was good as it was said.
which the waters brought forth abundantly after their kind,
and every winged fowl after his kind.
And God saw that it was good.
And God blessed them, saying,
Be fruitful and multiply,
fill the waters in the sea,
and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Yep, through 25.
And God said,
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,
cattle and creeping thing,
and beasts of the earth after his kind.
And it was so.
And God made the beasts of the earth after his kind,
and cattle after their kind,
and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind.
And God saw that it was good.
All right.
Does anyone see sort of a recurring pattern in these verses?
After its kind.
You guys see that?
God made the sea creatures after their kind,
and the birds after their kind,
and the land creatures,
and the swarming creatures after their kind.
I find that,
according to their kind repetition,
really intriguing.
What could these phrases be referring to?
Well,
I mean,
the most obvious explanation of these
is basically just the observation
that
lambs give birth to lambs,
and grapevines produce grapevines,
you know.
So it's not really meant to be communicating to us
what kinds are.
just saying that,
you know,
like things give birth to like things.
And that there's diversity.
Yeah.
It's kind.
Right,
exactly.
I actually think,
given that the original audience
of Genesis 1
were
farmers,
shepherds,
people who are
really super familiar with animal husbandry,
this would be
not really that
groundbreaking
if that was the only meaning.
You know?
I think most,
these people were
very familiar with the fact that
lambs give birth to lambs,
et cetera.
So,
I think it would kind of be doing
injustice to the text
to restrict it
to merely that meaning.
So,
what additionally
could it be referring to?
Well,
the word kind here
means something like
categories
or varieties of things,
indicating
that the text
is
drawing on
that
there seems to be
something behind
our sort of
our common sense observation
that there are
different ways
of being.
Hi,
sorry,
I'm like...
No,
don't worry about it.
No,
just the beginning.
We're just talking about
kinds,
you know,
according to their kinds
in Genesis
day five
and day six.
Yeah.
So,
there are
different ways
of being
that we can
justifiably
group together
and separate.
Okay?
Now,
what do I mean by that?
Well,
apple trees
seem to us
to be different
kinds of things
than a lion,
right?
But we would still
group together
maple trees
with the apple trees
and we would group
lions with tigers,
right?
There seems to be
sort of these
different ways
of existing
that we can
just see with our eyes
like,
oh,
that is like this.
We put them together
even though they're not
identical.
There's diversity
among the kinds
but there are
different kinds
of things,
right?
If anyone here
is familiar
with the works
of Plato,
this may be
reminding you
of his concept
of the ideas
and some
have even noted
that the,
there's an interesting
parallel
between the Greek
translation
in the Septuagint
of these passages
that we just read
and the works
of Aristotle
in Greek
where he is
attempting to
describe what he
believes are like
the fixity
of the forms,
like how every
individual species
of thing
is its own thing
and it's,
you know,
it has to do
with substance
and accents
if you're familiar
with Greek
metaphysics.
And he's often
in those passages
in Aristotle,
he's using
a very similar
kind of language
to the Greek
translation
of these passages.
But Aristotle
is producing
what I think
could be accurately
called like a
scientific account
of these different
kinds
and he's giving
philosophical reasons
for the separation
of categories
of things
and categories
of being.
And I don't think
that's actually
what scripture
is doing here
but I think
because scripture
is not making
philosophical arguments,
it's not making
a scientific argument
here,
it's distating
a truth.
But I think
beyond all that
there is
definitely here
an affirmation
that there are
different ways
of being
and there's
variety among them.
Okay?
Different kinds
of existence.
So
where
do these
ways of being
or kinds
come from?
What was that?
From God?
Oh yeah,
that was good.
Yeah.
From God himself.
Right?
Of course.
Like all things
they come from God.
Right?
We learn
class one
everything
was created
ex nihilo.
There is
God
and everything
that God created.
And so if we're
thinking about
where did all this
different ways of being,
these kinds of existences,
these different
forms you might call them,
where do they come from?
Well they have to come
from God.
But let's consider this.
When you and I
are creative
we tend to imagine
that
we're truly
generating
concepts
and images
from nothing.
Right?
We're like
we're truly original.
We just
we create
from the nothingness
that is in our mind.
Right?
But actually
any
experienced artist
will tell you that
our creative activity
is more of a blending.
A blending
or appropriating
of the reality
around us.
Right?
An artist
first goes out
and feeds
their imagination
with information
from our senses
and then
they can go back
and recombine
and reimagine them
as their own works.
Right?
Not to say that
artists aren't creative
only that they have to
draw on existing reality
and twist them
and move them
and form them
into something new.
Right?
But they're not
truly original.
Actually
J.R.R. Tolkien
called this work
sub-creation
because none of us
can say
that we actually
create proper.
We're always
whenever we do
something creative
we're always
sub-creating
drawing on
the things
that already exist.
But if we think
about this
that can't actually
be true of God.
Right?
There is nothing
for God to go out
and observe
and feed his imagination
like
I think I'm going to create
let me go out
and see what's out there.
You know?
No.
God doesn't have
there is nothing
outside of God
to base his creation on.
And some
have attempted
to say that
God created
based on his
foreknowledge
of what would be
created
much like
some say
that God
elects people
based on their
free choice of him.
Right?
So if you're
familiar with
the doctrine of grace
we talked about this
a few weeks ago
not a few weeks ago
it was actually
like a few months ago
my goodness.
Anyways
the idea that
oh
someone chooses
God
in their life
freely
and God
from time immemorial
knows that
and says
therefore I'm going
to elect this person
because he chose me.
Right?
And so a similar
sort of activity
is thought to
some people
have thought
well
God has
perfect foreknowledge
so he knows
what will be
what will exist
in creation
and so he
creates
based on his
foreknowledge
of what will be
existing.
However
Stephen Charnock
makes short work
of this view
observing
he made all
things in wisdom
how can this
be imagined
if the things
known
were the cause
of his knowledge
and so before
his knowledge
and therefore
before his action
God would not
then be the first
in the order
of knowing agents
because he would
not act by knowledge
but act before
he knew
and know
after he acted.
You see that
it's kind of
ridiculous.
So God
can't create
based on his
foreknowledge
of what would
exist.
That creates
a contradiction
where the thing
that exists
exists before
God creates it
so he acts
before he knows
what he's creating
and he knows
what he did
after he did it.
Yeah.
If you're confused
everyone should be
confused
because it doesn't
make any sense.
So no
our creator
has made everything
in keeping with
what are called
by theologians
his divine ideas.
These divine ideas
are the patterns
of all created
things that exist
in his mind.
Now
this is actually
was developed
in the early church
as a critique
of Platonism
and Aristotelianism.
So the idea was
if you're familiar
with Plato
you know
there are
different kinds
of trees
right
but they're all
trees
and there's
this thing
called
tree-ness
right
there's this
idea of the tree
the ideal of the tree
the form of the tree
and this idea
of the tree
this tree-ness
exists
in this realm
called the realm
of the ideas
and this is where
all the concrete
or abstract objects
exist
anyways
in Christianity
we believe
that there is
nothing else
eternal
outside of God
right
and so
based on texts
like here in Genesis
and our common sense
observation
that there are
there does seem
to be something
behind this kind
idea
or form idea
the earliest Christians
said no
these are actually
they're not in their
own eternal realm
of abstract objects
they're in God
these are God's ideas
it's in God's mind
right
and they call these
divine ideas
now are these ideas
pure inventions
totally new
based on nothing
you know
some would say
that this must be true
for God to be free
in his creation
that he had to have
just like
this
right
you know
tree
but
most
most theologians
actually
the majority
of the church
has actually
viewed these
divine ideas
of creation
that God
created
based these
on himself
that they are
they are
reflections
of aspects
of God's being
because God
himself
is the fullness
of being
right
this is the view
that was pioneered
by origin
and Augustine
and affirmed
and modified
throughout church
history
by John of Damascus
Anselm
Thomas Aquinas
Francis Turretin
and many
many others
however
like a lot
of things
I like
how Herman
Bavink
puts it
in summary
he says
God's ideas
are absolutely
original
they arise
from his own
being
they are
eternal
and immutable
indeed
they are
one with
his own
being
the ideas
in God
are the very
being of God
in so far
as this being
is the pattern
of created
things
and can be
expressed
and modeled
in finite
creatures
every creature
is a revelation
of God
and participates
in God's
being
the nature
of this
participation
is not
such that
creatures
are modifications
of the divine
being
or that they
have in some
realistic sense
receive this
divine being
into themselves
but every
creature
has its own
distinct being
because in
its existence
it is an
exemplification
of the divine
being
the wisdom
of God
is manifest
in the creation
ordering
guidance
and government
of all things
you guys
catch that
in
in virtue
of being
an exemplification
of God
in some way
all of creation
can be truly
said to be
God's
self-revelation
that means
that every time
you walk outside
and look
at a piece
of moss
or a robin
eating on the lawn
or the mushrooms
dotting a log
you are in
some sense
receiving a
revelation
of God
you're learning
something about
God
he is telling
you something
about himself
the oxaladdle
the quivering
aspen
the secretive owl
are all saying
behold your maker
how sad
that we often
walk by the
outside world
without appreciating
the central
aspect of it
Raul you had
your hand
out
even
you pointed
out
the algae
and nature
but also
the building
of cities
and civilizations
and having
governments
that's all
from God
yeah
all of that
yeah
I think
and I'm not
this is actually
outside of my purview
because
I'm not
I'm not going to be
teaching the image
of God
class
that's going to be
Pastor Nick
but I think
you're right
I think
the works
of human beings
the work
our art
our architecture
our organization
our reasoning
our science
all that stuff
is actually
reflections of God
through the medium
of the human mind
so the human mind
is a reflection of God
and therefore
our works
are therefore
like secondary reflections
of God's mind
yeah
exactly
yeah
Richard
so
clearly
creation
ex nihilo
would exclude
the notion
that
God
creates
everything
out of
himself
but does it
exclude
the notion
that God
creates
everything
out of
his ideas
no
so the idea
here is
God
as an analogy
the analogy
is
before we
make something
we have an idea
of it in our mind
think of it like
a blueprint
right
we have a blueprint
of a building
that we're going
to make
the blueprint
isn't the building
the blueprint
is what the building
is going to be
right
the form of it
the idea of it
in the same way
God
prior to his
creation of the world
has ideas
of what
he's going to create
and what those
ideas are
what he ends up
actualizing
creating
is based
on himself
right
the ways in which
he can be
imitated
in a finite mode
right
it's the finitude
that is the
important part here
right
none of us
none of
no part of creation
is like
this is the
divine
you know
like
it's
no no no
this is reflecting
something about God
it's not all of God
does that make sense
nothing finite
can ever encompass
all of God
but
does that make sense
what we're getting
out of there
yeah
so
if
all of creation
is a self-revelation
of God
this kind of
brings up a
perplexing question
what do we make
of all those
aspects of creation
that make us
wince
that make us what
wince
you know
make us
kind of shudder
what do we make
of the seemingly
long history
of predation
and death
in the natural world
including the extinction
of all kinds of creatures
like the majestic
dinosaur
and the funky
trilobite
ultimately
we're asking
the question
how fallen
is nature
if creation
is a self-revelation
of God
what are we
reasonably expected
to be able to learn
from God
from nature
and how corrupted
has it been
by the fall
one view
is actually
that the natural world
has been
comprehensively
affected by the fall
of man
that every kind
of natural evil
as we might
understand it
is attributable
to humanity's
primal disobedience
this view
is often
a distinguishing mark
of young earth
creationism
postulating that
predation
and animal death
per se
are results
of the fall
of man
and therefore
cannot predate
humanity
since the publication
of the Genesis flood
in 1961
the history
of predation
and extinction
as seen in the fossils
is actually explained
by a global flood
that produced
the world
as we know it today
but
this view
is actually
a little bit more
I mean
this general view
is more ancient
than that
it's
the view
that nature
has been severely
affected by the fall
is actually espoused
by John Calvin
he says
that fleas
caterpillars
and other
noxious insects
are penalties
of the fall
so the relevant
passages in scripture
that are often cited
are the descriptions
of animal diet
in Genesis 1
the curses
in Genesis 3
the prophecy
of Isaiah 11
verses 6-9
and Paul's
discourse
in Romans 8
about creation
so let's go through
some of these
Genesis 1
29-30
says
after the creation
of man and animals
and God said
behold
I have given you
every plant
yielding seed
that is on the face
of all the earth
and every tree
with seed in its fruit
you shall have them
for food
and to every beast
of the earth
and every bird
of the heavens
and everything
that creeps on the earth
everything that has
the breath of life
I have given
every green plant
for food
and it was so
this seems like
a pretty clear
prohibition
on carnivorous activity
prior to the fall
and it's only enhanced
by the prophecies
found in Isaiah 11
6-9
where he says
the wolf
shall dwell
with the lamb
and the leopard
shall lie down
with the young goat
and the calf
and the lion
and the fatted calf
together
and a little child
shall lead them
the cow
and the bear
shall graze
the young
shall lie down
together
and the lion
shall eat straw
like the ox
the nursing child
shall play
over the holes
of the cobra
and the weaned child
shall put his hand
on the adder's den
they shall not hurt
or destroy
in all my holy mountain
for the earth
shall be full
of the knowledge
of the Lord
as the waters
covers the sea
so here
the predatory animals
are seen to be
restored
in this view
to their prior
vegetarianism
in the new creation
showing that
predation
must have been
a result of the fall
and that nature
is in fact
currently cursed
Genesis 3
recounts
God's curse
on Adam
saying
because you have
listened to the voice
of your wife
and have eaten
of the tree
of which I commanded
you
you shall not
eat of it
curse is the ground
because of you
in pain
you shall eat of it
all the days
of your life
thorns and thistles
shall bring forth
for you
and you shall eat
the plants
of the field
by the sweat
of your face
you shall eat bread
till you return
to the ground
for out of it
you were taken
for you are dust
and to dust
you shall return
biologist
Dr. Gordon Wilson
one of the people
I think is
one of the best
proponents of this
view of a cursed nature
and
simultaneously
the creator
of an excellent
nature documentary
called
The Right and the Dance
if you're able
to watch it
you should watch it
it's great
I mean all nature
documentaries are awesome
but this is great
he comments
on that work
that documentary
that the curse
is manifest
when looking closely
at these elephant seals
in this case
the male domination
of the cows
the accidental crushing
of calves
and violent
territorial battles
between males
are on full display
this is a powerful
reminder that the creation
though impressive
is truly fallen
because of man's sin
right
he also
Dr. Wilson
also connects
this curse
to Paul's commentary
on the fallenness
of the world
in Romans 8
many of you
are probably familiar
with that
Paul says
for I consider
that the sufferings
of this present time
are not worth comparing
with the glory
that is to be revealed
to us
for the creation
waits with eager longing
for the revealing
of the sons of God
for the creation
was subjected
to futility
not willingly
but because of him
who subjected it
in hope
that the creation
itself
will be set free
from its bondage
to corruption
and obtain the freedom
of the glory
of the children of God
for we know
that the whole creation
has been groaning
together in the pains
of childbirth
until now
and not only the creation
but we ourselves
who have the first fruits
of the spirit
groan inwardly
as we wait eagerly
for adoption as sons
the redemption
of our bodies
for in this hope
we were saved
now hope
that is seen
is not hope
for what
who hopes
for what he sees
but if we hope
for what we do not see
we wait for it
with patience
Wilson
Dr. Wilson again
speaking of venomous snakes
observes that
the difference here
is that venomous snakes
curse condition
negatively impacts
human health
and welfare
especially in tropical countries
as we profiled
these deadly snakes
and our adversarial
relationship with them
throughout the world history
we wanted to highlight
the hope of the gospel
not only does God
reconcile man
to himself
through the life
death
burial
resurrection
and ascension
of Jesus Christ
but the whole creation
will be liberated
from its bondage
to corruption
quoting Romans 8
so
you can see
that altogether
this view
can support
the idea
of a creation
that is bound
in corruption
as exemplified
in predation
venomous animals
and animal death
generally
so this is one view
of how fallen
nature is
in contrast
another view
is that creation
as we have received it
is now
even now
still very good
as God declares
at the end of the creation account
they would say
that predation
animal death
even venomous animals
are a part
of this good creation
and that it is
the fallenness of men
that restricts us
from being able
to fully appreciate
the breadth
of God's works
among these proponents
would be
figures like
Augustine
Basil of Caesarea
Thomas Aquinas
William Paley
to name just a few
in fact
this is
if I had to
survey
church history
generally
this seems to be
the majority view
in the church
an excellent
modern proponent
of this view
would be
scientist
and Old Testament
scholar
Dr. C. John Collins
I'm a huge fan
love Dr. Collins
who in a chapter
in his book
Science and Faith
Friend or Foes
takes up this challenge
he points out
that when we look
at the supposed
prohibition
on predation
in Genesis 1
that there is
a curious omission
from the list
of animals
who are meant
to eat vegetation
did you guys catch it?
let's see
verse 30 says
and to every beast
of the earth
and every bird
of the heavens
and everything
that creeps
on the earth
everything that
has the breath
of life
I have given
every green plant
for food
you guys notice
there's no mention
of aquatic life
there?
aquatic
there's no mention
of aquatic life
so
at the very least
if this is a prohibition
on predation
it doesn't seem
to be a blanket
prohibition
of predation
because
it does not
encompass
the
aquatic animals
many of which
as you may know
eat other things
and the
ancient people
would know that too
and further
he points out
that the prophecy
in Isaiah 11
showing the lion
eating straw
like an ox
is actually
sandwiched
between two sections
discussing the turning
of all the Gentile
nations to Jesus
suggesting
it actually
might be
more properly
understood
to be a poetic
representation
of the peace
between Jew
and Gentile
a result
that would be
just as startling
as lions
and lambs
laying peacefully
together
more importantly
he points
to those passages
in scripture
like Psalm 104
that seem
to glorify God
for the predation
of his creatures
we read here
verse 19
he made the moon
to mark the seasons
the sun knows
it's time for setting
you make darkness
and it is night
when all the beasts
of the forest
creep about
the young lions
roar for their prey
seeking their food
from God
when the sun rises
they steal away
and lie down
in their dens
man goes out
to his work
and his labor
until the evening
oh Lord
how manifold
are your works
in wisdom
have you made them all
the earth
is full
of your creatures
so proponents
of this
we would say
we surely
have to include
these passages
into our view
of creation as well
so how do we
balance those
and as far as
the curse
in Genesis 3
is concerned
he would argue
that Dr. Collins
would say
that these are
properly understood
to be judgments
on man alone
and that thorns
and thistles
are going to be
God's means
for punishing Adam
not that
they are now
going to exist
for the first time
at all
similarly
the corruption
in Romans 8
on this view
is better understood
to be a lament
of creation
for man
to finally
take up
their role
of vice-regent
for the flourishing
of all of creation
not for the
that nature
of predation
and animal death
but that mankind
would finally come
and lead creation
the way it was meant to
to Christians
like Collins
this would also
make sense
of our intuition
of the amazing glory
and beauty
of these created beings
you know
the intricacy
of the spider's web
the astonishing speed
of the barracuda
and the superb design
of the eagle's eyes
and claws
Augustine thought
the same of the insects
saying
all things after all
have in them
a certain worth
or grace of nature
each of its own kind
so that in these
minute creatures
there is even more
for us to wonder at
as we observe them
and so praise
the almighty craftsman
for them
more rapturously
than ever
if we pay close attention
we are more amazed
at the agile flight
of a fly
than at the stamina
of the sturdy mule
on the march
and the cooperative
labors of tiny ants
strike us
as far more wonderful
than the colossal loads
that can be carried
by camels
ultimately
the proponents
of this view
would say
that the parts
of creation
that we are
uncomfortable with
is a result
of our inability
to fully appreciate
the whole of creation
and see
just like
the dark spots
in a painting
the greater glory
that is produced
in the completed project
Augustine exhorts us
some things you see
abide by soaring
over the whole
rolling wheel
of time
in the widest range
of holiness
under God
while other things
do so according
to the limits
of their time
and thus it is
through things
giving way to
and taking the place
of one another
that a beautiful
tapestry
of the ages
is woven
they would say
just like
sore eyes
make the light
hateful to us
our fallen
attitudes
make us unable
to properly
appreciate
the temporal
beauty
of some aspects
of the world
and even
for those parts
that we can't
fully understand
their purpose
John Chrysostom
would say
from the creation
learn to admire
the Lord
and if any of
the things
which you see
exceed your
comprehension
and you're not
able to find
the reason
for its existence
then for this
reason
glorify the
creator
that the wisdom
of his works
surpasses your
own understanding
these views
were espoused
well before
the theory of
evolution
was proposed
so they can't
actually be
considered a
capitulation
to the current
scientific theory
but it has
not been lost
on modern
proponents of
this view
that it would
certainly make
acceptance of
some kind
of development
and creation
more plausible
given the
animal death
and predation
in the fossil
record that
seems to
predate humans
okay
so
are those
the only
options we
have left
to us
I have to
say
I lean
towards the
second view
with its
insistence
on the
goodness
of creation
here and
now
but I'm
still
not fully
satisfied
with the
arguments
against our
perception
of some
kind of
natural
evil
I feel
like the
virtues
of the
first
view
are that
it gels
with that
intuition
that we
have
that there
is
something
wrong
there's just
something
off
about
creation
something
that's just
not quite
right
still beautiful
but still
I don't know
it's hard to put
words on it
and I feel
like the
virtue of
the second
view
is that
it helps us
to appreciate
creation as
we have it
now
receive
the world
that we go
out right
now and
see
and appreciate
and glorify
God for it
there are
pros and
cons
to each
of them
I feel
like one
of the
cons
of the
first view
is it
does seem
to kind
of require
us
to posit
some kind
of like
post-creation
creation
right
so pre-fall
there wouldn't
be predators
or
you know
decomposers
or all these
different aspects
of creation
that seem
to be designed
to work
with animal
death
and
deal with
those issues
and so
I guess
in this view
the idea
would be
at the
cursing
of creation
you have
this moment
where there
are suddenly
lions who
have like
big teeth
now
and claws
and digestive
systems that
work on
eating animals
and you
know
venomous snakes
suddenly have
to get glands
that inject
venom
you see
what I'm
saying
there seems
to be
some sort
of
there would
have to
be
some sort
of like
second
creation
event
sort of
although we
don't really
see something
like that
in scripture
and again
I think
one of the
greatest
cons of
this second
view
is just
that
I feel
like it
asks us
to
pretend
like we
don't see
what we
see
you know
that we
don't
that when
we watch
the nature
documentary
we honestly
don't
root
for the
squirrel
right
that's being
chased by
the fox
we're like
get away
squirrel
go
what is
that
I don't
know
so
I say
surely
we have
modern
glasses
so we
have to
come at
this with
a little
bit of
humility
right
because
we
probably
have
modern
glasses
that make
us
more apt
to
anthropomorphize
animals
their
animals
the
suffering
and death
of animals
and
it could
be
let's
be honest
most
of us
are not
spending
tons
and tons
of time
connected
to nature
most of
us
if we
have
animals
and stuff
they're
pets
and
the
death
of a
pet
is a
huge
tragedy
and we
all
feel
pain
so
maybe
we
are
projecting
that
feeling
onto
nature
broadly
but
if
you
talk
to
a
farmer
they
probably
would
have
a
very
different
intuition
about
these
things
right
farmers
are hard
to find
you have
to find
a farm
first
no
but
at the
same
time
I don't
think
I can
really
ignore
my
sense
that
there
is
gratuitous
suffering
in the
animal
world
almost
like
something
has
attempted
to
mar
God's
good
creation
but
ultimately
failed
so
this
is
actually
a
minority
view
in the
church
however
there
are
a few
people
in our
history
that
have
affirmed
the
basic
goodness
of the
created
world
as we
receive
it
including
things
like
predation
and
animal
death
but
that
this
basic
reflection
of
God
has
been
disordered
post
fall
to
show
more
cruelty
fear
and
ferocity
so
in this
view
the
general
structure
of
creation
with
there
being
carnivores
and
producers
and
decomposers
this is
all part
of
God's
good
creation
but
there's
something
about
it
on
the
edges
that
has
been
corrupted
or
disordered
or
twinsed
by the
fall
proponents
of
this
view
would
include
Gregory
of
Nazianzus
John
of
Damascus
Ephraim
the
Syrian
Hugh
of
Saint
Victor
and
Bonaventure
in the
modern
period
people
like
John
Wesley
C.S.
Lewis
J.R.
Tolkien
Alvin
Plantinga
and
Gavin
Ortland
now
that's
not
a
among
others
list
that is
as far
as I
know
the
entire
list
so
when I
say
it's
a
minority
view
it
is
a
minority
view
okay
and
depending
on
which
one
of
these
figures
you're
looking
at
they
actually
might
fault
the
angelic
or
human
fall
with
this
disorder
that
we
see
and
but
I
will
remain
brief
here
because
honestly
this
view
is
basically
a
blending
of
the
intuitions
of
the
first
two
views
and
will
rely
on
their
arguments
at
different
places
so
a
proponent
of
this
view
might
say
I
agree
with
Dr.
Collins
that
Isaiah
11
is
really
primarily
talking
about
the
relationship
of
Jew
and
Gentile
in
the
new
covenant
that
this
is
a
new
harmony
between
previously
warring
factions
but
they
also
might
say
but
I
don't
really
agree
with
Dr.
Collins
that
Genesis
1
is
not
talking
about
prohibiting
predation
or
at least
something
about
the way
that
land
animals
work
is
different
now
than
it
used
to
be
you
know
so
it would
be
kind
of
pedantic
for me
to
go
and
say
here
are
all
the
possible
combinations
of
all
the
different
two
views
so
I'm
not
going
to
spend
time
doing
that
yeah
Richard
so
one of
the things
I've
learned
from
listening
to
Christian
teachers
and reading
my
Bible
is
that
we
hold
certain
truths
in
tension
with
each
other
and
really
Christians
have
gotten
really
good
at
doing
that
and
it's
a
shame
that
only
a
minority
that
you
speak
about
have
even
attempted
to
hold
these
ideas
in
tension
with
one
another
yeah
I
mean
it
could
be
maybe
a
better
way
of
saying
instead
of
saying
we
have
black
hats
over
here
white
hats
over
here
and
the
few
gray
hats
in
the
middle
it
might
actually
be
more
appropriate
to
think
of
it
as
a
spectrum
and
that
there
are
definable
groups
within
the
spectrum
but
each
of
these
different
views
probably
is
trying
to
get
at
that
tension
but
maybe
they
are
waiting
one
side
over
the
other
right
so
and
I'll
finish
up
by
I
don't
I
really
want
to
make
sure
I
make
clear
that
proponents
of the
first
view
don't
think
that you
should
hate
nature
proponents
of the
second
view
don't
believe
that
everything
is
perfectly
great
all the
time
and
that
you
should
just
you
know
life
is
awesome
and
that
human
sin
hasn't
affected
nature
in
any
way
right
but
they
would
lean
they
would
lean
in
their
perception
on
one
end
of
weighing
those
two
things
the
goodness
of
creation
and
the
fallenness
of
nature
and
this
middle
group
is
sort
of
those
people
who
are
like
I
kind
of
want
to
hold
them
together
really
tight
somehow
you
know
can
I
ask
you
a
question
about
Dr.
Collins
yeah
so
he
thinks
that
the
present
state
of
the
world
of
nature
okay
is
as
God
pronounced
it
very
good
yep
so
he
doesn't
think
that
it's
merely
good
no
he
thinks
it's
very
good
I
can't
go
that
far
yeah
and
that's
right
that's
the
that's
the
hard
part
it's
like
oh
how
do
we
how
do
we
deal
with
that
you
know
yeah
right
and
so
yeah
it's
a
it's
a
hard
problem
now
for
this
third
view
the
sort
of
middle
view
Jared
Tolkien
seems
to be
trading
on
this
when
he
depicts
his
creation
account
in
the
Silmarillion
I
don't
know
if
any
of
you
!
you
the
creation
account
because
it was
the
very
first
page
and
it
was
I
think
it's
only
one
page
so
if
you
got
through
one
page
of
the
Silmarillion
you
read
this
part
but
basically
in
this
story
Iluvatar
who is
sort
of
the
god
figure
is
leading
the
god
like
Ainur
who are
kind
of
like
angels
in
this
song
of
creation
and
Melkor
who is
the
devil
figure
is
constantly
ringing
a
discordant
note
in
this
song
of
creation
but
Iluvatar
is
always
taking
that
discordant
note
and
harmonizing
it
and
bringing
it
back
into
the
story
and
harmonizing
it
and
this
sort
of
gets
kind
of
brings
an
imaginative
expression
of the
possibility
of
god's
self
revelation
in
nature
but
that
is
disordered
at the
margins
but
reworked
finally
into
the
whole
as
very
good
so
how do
we end
oh
go ahead
that is
you Matt
sorry
has
anybody
tried
to
look
at
these
issues
through
the
lens
of
the
garden
god
planted
and
a
man
ruling
first
in the
garden
and
then
with
the
worldwide
commission
of
Genesis
1
to go
out
and have
to be
all the
world
yeah
a lot
of
times
people
who
take
the
second
view
actually
would
say
that
the
garden
of
Eden
was
sort
of
the
landing
zone
of
humanity's
rule
over
creation
vice
regency
over
creation
you could
say
and that
the
commission
was to
go out
and spread
the bliss
of Eden
across the
whole
world
and that
when
Adam and
Eve are
kicked out
of the
garden
you know
there are
no squatters
in the
garden
they are
now going
to encounter
thorns and
thistles for
the first
time
so it's
not that
they didn't
exist
but that
they
would
not have
experienced
them the
way they
would have
had they
been growing
Eden
out
as opposed
to being
kicked
out of
Eden
and working
with creation
in its
most
difficult
harsh
form
so that's
actually a
pretty common
view
among the
second
people
the first
people of the
first view
would say
that Eden
was the
entire
world
the entire
world
was a
garden
of Eden
usually
so how
do we
finish
how do we
conclude
well
as usual
for this
class
what's the
point of
this
class
the point
of this
class
is
to receive
creation
as a gift
from God
and to
glorify him
for it
okay
and so
no matter
which of
the views
you find
compelling
in light
of the
fact
that
creation
is God's
self-revelation
of his
being
from his
divine
ideas
we are
given
no warrant
!
to dismiss
the created
world
and scripture
gives us
a universal
example
of undiluted
praise to God
as creator
to that end
I will finish
our talk
today
with quotes
from proponents
of each
of the
different
views
addressed
above
on the
existing
majesty
of God's
handiwork
I actually
chose
Dr.
Wilson
as a
proponent
of the
first view
because
I just
love
his obvious
love
of the
created
world
as we
have it
now
he says
though
other
animals
too
have been
affected
by the
curse
in various
ways
their
evident
beauty
grace
symmetry
coordination
and complexity
are reminders
of a
glorious
creation
once
untainted
by the
curse
they
and even
the
gnarliest
creatures
reveal
the ingenious
artistry
and engineering
of our
creator
so that
everyone
is without
excuse
and
Basil of
Caesarea
for the
second view
can double
down on that
sentiment
he says
I want
creation
to penetrate
you
with so
much
admiration
that
everywhere
wherever
you may
be
the
least
plant
may
bring
to you
the
clear
remembrance
of the
creator
and
finally
John of
Damascus
explains
how
creation
points us
to God
he says
the whole
earth
is a
living
icon
of the
face
of
God
I
do
not
worship
matter
I
worship
the
creator
of
matter
who
became
matter
for
my
sake
who
willed
to
take
his
abode
in
matter
who
worked
out
my
salvation
through
matter
never
will
I
cease
honoring
the
matter
which
wrought
my
salvation
I
honor
it
but not
as
God
because
of
this
I
salute
all
remaining
matter
with
reverence
because
God
has
filled
it
with
his
grace
and
power
and
through
it
my
salvation
has
come
to
me
so
let me
finish
by reading
Psalm
148
which I
think is
just
this is
giving us
an example
of how
we should
respond
to the
natural
world
praise
the Lord
praise the
Lord from
the heavens
praise him
in the
heights
praise him
all angels
praise him
all his
hosts
praise him
sun and
moon
praise him
all you
shining
stars
praise him
you highest
heavens and
you waters
above the
heavens
let them
praise the
name of
the
Lord
for he
commanded
and they
were
created
and he
established
them
forever
and ever
he gave
a decree
and it
shall not
pass away
praise the
Lord from
the earth
you great
sea creatures
and all
deeps
fire and
hail
snow and
mist
stormy
wind
fulfilling
his
word
mountains
and all
hills
fruit trees
and all
cedars
beasts
and all
livestock
creeping
things
and flying
birds
kings
of the
earth
and all
peoples
princes
and all
rulers
of the
earth
young
men
and maidens
together
old
men
and
children
let them
praise the
name of
the Lord
for his
name alone
is exalted
his majesty
is above
earth and
heaven
he has
raised up
a horn
for his
people
praise for
all his
saints
for the
people of
Israel
who are
near to
him
praise the
Lord
amen
all right
guys
that's it
that's all
I have
any
questions
we have
five minutes
for questions
if not
we have
five minutes
extra to go
downstairs and
get ready for
worship
thanks Ed
I can't
believe our
conversation
yesterday
I know
isn't that
crazy
yeah
it's just
on my
mind
yeah
and I
loved it
I think
I told
you hit
100%
yeah
right
thanks
dad
yeah
right
yeah
exactly
yeah
good to
see you
sorry
neighbor
Tyler
yeah
exactly
yeah
very often
yeah
those are
the images
used to
describe
those nations
right
exactly
yeah
and the
snake
you know
the snake
of the west
right
exactly
yeah
exactly
yeah
so I'm
good
coming
out
of
fruition
I
really
like
you
like
you