Seemingly difficult or awkward, I'm prepared to take it, so please do feel free to ask later on.
In the last couple of generations, there has been a dramatic shift in people's attitudes towards gay people.
It's evident, I think, in a whole host of ways.
So openly gay celebrities now are no longer sidelined.
There would have been a time when, if a celebrity was gay, they would have done pretty much anything to cover that up and to keep that from other people.
But now you tend to find that if a celebrity comes out and admits to being gay, it tends to add to their popular appeal and to their commercial value.
And if ever you wanted proof that a culture has changed so dramatically, surely it is Welsh Rugby International there, Gareth Thomas,
being able to publicly come out and declare himself to be gay, as he did a few years ago.
That really provides all the proof that you need.
That would never really have happened, probably not even ten years ago, let alone a generation ago.
Gay romance films are now pretty much mainstream.
Probably five, ten years ago, a film such as Brokeback Mountain would have been consigned to the specialist arty cinemas.
But it was in fact a mainstream Hollywood blockbuster, this film of gay romance.
I'm sure none of us here will have seen that or admit to having seen it if we have.
Same-sex relationships are, of course, now legally recognised too.
Legislation has changed all around the world.
People have introduced legislation for civil partnerships.
And, of course, a number of governments have already introduced legislation for full same-sex marriage,
with a number of other governments talking about doing the same thing.
And a number of world leaders now have come out and said that they are in favour of same-sex marriage.
Oh, Johnny's taken away my picture of President Obama.
There was a picture there.
We had a little bit of adjustment on the colour.
So that is President Obama, who says,
I hesitated on gay marriage, but I've just concluded that for me personally,
it's important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married.
That was President Obama in an ABC News interview earlier this year.
And that caused quite a storm over in the USA,
with President Obama making that very clear declaration.
So this cultural backdrop in mind, it's no surprise to us, I'm sure,
that the Church finds itself really under immense pressure to change our stance on same-sex relationships.
There's cultural pressure.
There is legislative pressure.
There's media pressure.
There's pressure from many influential voices, even within the Church.
And to Christian leaders who maintain that same-sex sexual relationships go against God's revealed will in the Bible,
the accusation is levelled that we're maybe out of touch, intolerant, or even homophobic and anti-gay.
Now, as evangelical Christians, the temptation, of course, when we're confronted with this kind of cultural tidal wave of popular opinion,
the temptation, I think, is either to retreat and become silently ashamed of the Gospel
and of Gospel teaching on human sexuality,
or we may be tempted simply to go on the offensive
and focus all of our efforts on maybe lobbying Parliament,
protesting at various proposed changes to the law.
But if we're true evangelicals, then we ought, I believe, really to challenge ourselves by asking this question.
Do I believe that the Gospel, that is the good news of Jesus Christ,
do I believe that the Gospel is good news for gay people too?
Is it good news for Christians, and perhaps there are some Christians here this evening,
who struggle with same-sex attraction, struggle with their sexual identity?
I'm trying at this point not to make any eye contact with anybody in particular,
in case you think, he's looking at me, he's looking at me, I'm not looking at anybody, just to be sure.
Well, as we focus on this subject of walking with gay friends,
I want to focus our thinking really around three main questions this evening,
just to give you an idea of where we're going in the structure.
Firstly, I'm going to ask, what are the causes of same-sex attraction?
What is it that causes some people to be attracted to those of the same sex rather than the opposite sex?
Is there a gay gene?
We're going to talk about that subject and hopefully help explode some of the myths around it.
Secondly, we're going to think, what does the Bible teach about same-sex practice?
Not what do we think it teaches, what do we heard it teaches?
What does it actually say when we look at various Bible passages?
And then thirdly, we're going to finish by thinking particularly,
what hope does the Gospel hold out to those for whom this is a personal issue?
So if we are seeking to walk with gay friends, by gay friends, what I mean by that is perhaps
those that we know, I'm sure a number of us will have colleagues or neighbours or friends
or family members who identify as gay or lesbian or bisexual.
How can we actually get alongside them?
What hope does the Gospel hold out to them?
But also what hope does the Gospel hold out to those who are Christians,
who perhaps don't identify as gay, but who admit to having a struggle
in this whole area of same-sex attraction?
So that's where we're going this evening.
But before we tackle the first of those questions,
I think it might be helpful just to spend a little bit of time tonight
giving you a little bit of my own background and telling something of my own story.
Because I want you to know that I don't teach on this subject
from the comfort of some kind of theological bubble.
This is an intensely personal issue for me.
I grew up in a church-going family, so I was taken to church from a very young age.
I was taken to Sunday school, so I grew up really with a belief in God
from as young as I can remember, a belief in the truth of the Bible.
But from around about the age of 10 or 11, I became conscious of feeling attractions
to some of my male friends rather than to my female friends.
That was quite a shock to me.
It was quite a confusing time.
Not something I'd ever chosen, but just something simply that was there.
And so I began as a 10, 11, 12-year-old to sort of battle through these thoughts.
What does this actually mean?
How can this possibly happen to me?
I believe in God, and I know that the Bible is very negative about homosexual practice.
So, you know, how can I reconcile these two things together?
And that was a real struggle for me.
And I didn't feel at that age that I could share what was going on with anybody else.
I certainly couldn't talk to my parents.
Couldn't really talk to friends at school.
Things were a lot less open than they would probably be today.
And to be honest, the very last place I was going to go was going to be the church,
because the only time that I'd ever heard Christians talking about homosexuality,
it was always in a very judgmental or very harsh or sometimes very condemning way.
So I was left, if you like, as I entered into teenage years to try and work through these things by myself
and work through what this meant for me.
And around about the age of 17, I think it was, I began to identify inwardly as being gay.
I remember picking up a book off my parents' bookshelves, and it was all about sort of puberty, adolescence.
I remember reading in there that some people might have a phase of feeling attracted to the same sex.
I remember reading, you know, I'm thinking, well, if this is a phase, it's a very long phase, it's not going away.
And then I came across this word gay.
And I believe that that was probably the label that I ought then to attribute to myself.
I didn't want to tell anybody else that.
I certainly didn't want to be open about it.
In fact, I wanted to do everything possible to hide that from other people.
But inwardly, I certainly felt that I must be gay.
And I was then faced with a choice, really, at 17.
I either keep going to church, keep reading the Bible, keep, quote, trying to be good.
That's what I thought a Christian was in those days.
Or I was going to explore this emerging sexuality.
I didn't want to be promiscuous.
I didn't want to have many partners.
Actually, my dream, if you like, as a 17-year-old boy was simply to find one special person to get to know and to spend my life with.
And I did meet a guy of my own age.
We became great friends.
Over a period of time, we fell in love and we entered into this long-term relationship together.
And that relationship lasted from age 17 through to 24.
But at age 24, there was quite a dramatic turnaround, really, in my life.
And that was initiated over a period of time, really.
I think God working in my heart and mind, convicting me that the way I was living was displeasing to him.
And I don't think simply because of my sexuality, but just because my whole life really wasn't focused on him.
I pretty much moved away from the church at that stage, wasn't reading the Bible, didn't even have any sense of trying to be good, if you like, trying to be a Christian.
And so God brought me under conviction.
And I remember one Sunday morning simply walking into a church.
This was in Bournemouth on the south coast of England where I was living at the time.
And actually, I remember I was living opposite this particular church with my partner at the time.
And we had an apartment that overlooked the entrance.
And often we'd, I would look out on a Sunday morning and see all of these Christians, quite a big Baptist church down in Bournemouth.
And they would flood out of this church.
And they'd be laughing and joking and smiling.
One of those churches, you know, where people are happy when they come out.
There are still a few.
I'm sure you all come from churches like that as well, don't you?
But I remember looking at these Christians and thinking there's something about them that was appealing.
And in fact, I felt quite envious.
Here I was.
I was in a loving relationship.
I was very happy in that relationship.
I had quite a good job.
I had a nice car.
I had a good income.
I was able to have foreign holidays.
In a worldly sense, I had pretty much everything I ever had dreamt of.
And yet, deep down, I knew that I was unhappy.
And God was also convicting me, really, that the life I was living was a life that wasn't pleasing to him.
So I walked into that church one Sunday morning.
I can't remember an awful lot about the service itself, except for me there was a very tangible sense of the presence of God in that place on that day.
And that was very powerful to me.
And I remember talking to one of the ministers of the church.
And we subsequently met up the following week.
I met him in his study at the church.
He didn't know anything about my background.
I didn't tell him anything about my background.
And he simply asked, look, do you mind if I read something to you from God's word?
And I said, yeah, sure, that's fine.
So he opened up the Bible and he read to me some verses from Jeremiah chapter 29, some very well-known verses.
I'm sure you'll be familiar to us.
Jeremiah chapter 29, where God says,
And I remember hearing those words as if they were God's direct call, really, to me.
I remember at the time breaking down in tears, not something I was in the habit of doing and certainly not in front of anybody else.
But it was very, very powerful that this was God's calling me, if you like, to put my trust in him.
I, by that stage, already heard the gospel.
So I knew what it meant by then to be a Christian through faith in Jesus Christ.
And so I took those words, really, as God's call to put my trust in him through Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation.
And that was the beginning, really, of quite a dramatic turnaround in my life.
So I knew immediately, nobody had to tell me, that becoming a Christian meant that I had to get out of that same-sex relationship.
That was quite a difficult thing to do, but I knew it was the right thing to do.
But I want to stress that becoming a Christian wasn't, in any sense, a negative experience.
I think sometimes, as Christians, we talk about all the things we give up.
And, of course, there is a cost to following Christ.
There are things to be given up.
But for me, becoming a Christian was a very positive experience as well.
I mean, just really as that prophecy from Jeremiah said, God had plans to prosper me and not to harm me, plans to give me hope and a future.
And that's certainly been my experience as I look back over the last 20 years or so now that I've become a Christian.
Just to give you one example, I didn't have any clue up until that stage what I should be doing vocationally.
I'd gone through a whole phase of being involved in different things, different jobs.
And I remember as a youngster, I had all these dreams.
In fact, I wanted to do all the typically gay things.
So I wanted to be an air steward.
I wanted to be a travel rep.
I wanted to be an actor.
I went off to audition for a drama school.
I'm not saying, by the way, if you want to be any of these things, that means you're gay.
Please don't misunderstand me.
But those were the typically gay things when I was growing up.
So I was a bit lost, really, in terms of what I was meant to be doing vocationally.
But I remember on that day having a really clear conviction that God was wanting me to go and teach his word,
the word that had worked so powerfully in turning my own life around, to teach that to other people.
I didn't know quite what that meant at that stage.
But I remember saying to this guy, the day I became a Christian, I want to be a missionary.
What do I do?
And he said, well, probably you need to hold on for a little while.
You've just become a Christian.
That was good advice, but you never want to hear that when you're a young Christian because you think you know everything.
But I did hold on.
And then a few years later, I went up to London to study at Bible College
and then went on to serve in a church over in East London
where I served as an assistant minister and youth worker for a number of years
and then subsequently as the pastor of that church.
And that was before joining the staff of the True Freedom Trust four years ago now
and then took over as the director of that organisation three years ago.
Let me tell you a little bit about True Freedom Trust
and then we're going to get into our question.
True Freedom Trust is basically an organisation, Christian ministry,
that is passionate about two things.
Firstly, helping Christians to think biblically and compassionately
about the whole area of sexuality, particularly same-sex attraction.
So we do an awful lot of teaching in churches, in Bible colleges,
in Christian unions, in youth groups, in schools,
really trying to communicate a biblical view of sexuality
but also a grace-filled view.
We believe you can be both full of grace and full of truth
as you think about issues of sexuality.
So we do that, a lot of teaching, but we also work then with individuals
who are struggling in these areas.
So that will be people who, like myself perhaps,
have come out of a background, being involved in a same-sex relationship
or just in any sense being involved in any kind of gay lifestyle.
Or in fact, more of the people that we support will be Christians
who perhaps have never been involved in a same-sex relationship
but have been conscious of a struggle in this area
and we seek to provide biblical encouragement and pastoral support.
And I'll put up at the end of the talk details of our website
where you might want to go and have a look.
There's an awful lot of information on there and testimonies and articles
and so on, ways that you can support us and pray for us as a ministry
which we would really appreciate.
Okay, well let's move on now to think about the first of our three questions.
What are the causes of same-sex attraction?
Well, there's a wide-ranging consensus among most of the respected experts in this field
that we need to accept what is known technically as a multi-causation model.
In plain English, that simply refers to a recognition
that there are a number of different factors
which contribute to how our sexual attractions and desires develop.
Okay, a number of different factors.
So some people will focus on biological and genetic factors.
Now, the fact is there is no one gene or set of genes
that in and of themselves have been discovered, if you like,
that make somebody gay.
Okay, that is a fact.
It simply isn't there.
People have made various claims over the years
but there is no one gene or set of genes
which in and of themselves make somebody gay.
An awful lot of research is being done
into the biological and genetic potential causes
towards homosexual attractions.
I think we should be prepared to accept as Christians
that there may well be biological and genetic factors
just as there would be, in fact, in every other part of our makeup.
So the way we look is affected by genes.
The temperament that we have can be affected by genes.
There is no reason to say that actually there can't be,
in some measure, some genetic factors
that may influence the development of same-sex attraction.
Now, some Christians have a real problem with that
because they say, oh, well, what does that mean?
Does that mean then that God makes people gay?
Well, no, absolutely not.
I don't think it means that at all.
We need to remember as Christians that we are born
into a fallen, broken world.
Not one of us here was born with a perfect set of genes.
Now, some of you are looking really surprised at this point.
I am sorry to disappoint you.
You were not born with a perfect set of genes.
Each of us are born into a fallen, sinful world.
What did David, the psalmist, say?
He said, surely I was sinful at birth.
Sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
So even if it were proved one day,
and personally I doubt that it ever will be,
but if it were proved that there is a gay gene,
that people are born with a fixed orientation,
that doesn't lead us to conclude that therefore God makes people gay.
It simply would be a reflection of the fact
that we are born into a fallen, broken world.
And in a fallen, broken world,
every aspect of who we are is impacted by the fall,
including our sexuality.
So for some people that will, if you like,
be visible in terms of the fact
that they are attracted to the same sex
rather than the opposite sex.
This is a quote here.
I don't know if you can read that.
I can read it out if that would be helpful.
But this is by a guy called Dr. Francis S. Collins.
He is head of the Human Genome Project.
So this is a guy who really knows
what he is talking about in this area.
And he is referring here to a study that was undertaken
of identical twins over in the USA.
Basically, this was where one of the twins
was predominantly or exclusively attracted
to those of the same sex.
What was the likelihood that the other twin
would also be predominantly or exclusively attracted
to those of the same sex?
And he concluded, having looked at this study
and finding that, in fact,
about 20% of the twins
were actually same-sex attracted.
And that was quite high
because it was compared to 4% of males
in the general population.
Indicating, he says,
that sexual orientation
is genetically influenced
but not hardwired by DNA.
And that whatever genes are involved
represent predispositions,
not predeterminations.
I think that's a really helpful phrase.
That phrase there,
not hardwired by DNA.
So it's not as simple as saying
people are born either go straight.
In fact, I want to challenge this evening
and I want us all to think about this,
challenge this whole concept
of a binary model, if you like,
of gay or straight
or possibly you'd have to add in a third
of bi, as some people would call themselves bi.
This whole idea that people have a fixed orientation
is actually a little bit of a myth.
Yes, it's true that most people,
I would imagine most people here,
if we look at it as a spectrum,
most people will be exclusively
or predominantly attracted
to those of the opposite sex.
There will be some people,
maybe even here,
who will be predominantly
or exclusively attracted
to the same sex,
a lot less people.
But actually there'll be some people
who will be somewhere in between.
And actually,
over our lifetimes,
our sexual attractions
can fluctuate as well.
So I know of a number of people
who in their teens
have had some experience
of same-sex attraction,
perhaps have developed a crush,
somebody of the same sex,
but actually they've got into
their twenties and beyond
and found that there's no hint
of same-sex desire.
That's actually just proved
to be a phase which has passed.
This is one of the reasons
I get really concerned
when there's pressure
on young people
to come out
and declare themselves to be gay.
And, you know,
in some schools
it's not uncommon, as I say,
for people in their early teens,
pre-teens even,
to come out and declare
that they're gay.
And I think that's far too soon
because it's not giving
young people an opportunity
to allow their sexuality
and their sexual attractions
to develop.
So it's not as simple as saying
that there is a gay gene,
but certainly we have to be open
to the fact that,
as with everything else,
our sexual attractions
can be influenced
by genetic biological factors.
Other factors would include
environmental factors.
So this is all to do, really,
with upbringing.
And what you find
that often people's views
get polarised, really,
between these two causes.
So it's what's often known
as the nature-nurture debate.
You've probably heard that
and it relates to a number
of other areas as well.
This argument as to whether
somebody is born gay
or whether their environment
and upbringing
makes somebody gay.
So, for example,
environmental factors
could include
maybe somebody going
to a same-sex school,
a same-sex boarding school.
Now, as it happens,
I went to a same-sex boarding school
from the age of 8 to 13.
And as I look back on that time,
I'm convinced personally
that that had quite an influence
in terms of how my own
sexual attractions developed.
Not least, I can remember,
this was in Oxford
where I was born and brought up.
And I remember on a Saturday morning
we were told
that we were allowed
to go out into Oxford
and look around the shops
after school,
would you believe,
on a Saturday morning,
horrendously.
We were allowed to go out
and look around the shops
and we had to go in a group
of a minimum of four boys
at the head.
And whatever you do,
whatever you do
under no circumstances,
talk to girls.
That was the instruction given.
So just remember,
this is now a group
of sort of pre-professant,
almost adolescent boys,
hormones raging
all over the place.
Don't direct any of that
towards girls.
That was the message
that was being given out.
And you can see
how that's an unhelpful start,
if you like,
to an adolescent.
Now, I cannot take
that experience,
and as I say,
there are lots of factors
which I think
played a part in my life,
but I can't take that
and say, well,
same-sex schools
clearly make people gay.
It's not as simple as that.
In fact,
most of the people
who went to that same school,
some of us here
maybe have been
to same-sex schools,
and it has no influence
at all
on how our sexual
attractions develop.
But certainly in my case,
I believe it did,
and it may well be a factor
for certain people.
Other factors,
for example,
I know of a number of people
who've grown up
in an all-female environment.
This is boys growing up
in an all-female environment,
or indeed girls
growing up
in an all-male environment.
That tends to happen
slightly less.
But if you take the example
of maybe a boy growing up
and dad has left,
and he's maybe got
a couple of sisters,
so it's mum
and a couple of sisters,
that's the only influence
he has in the home
as he grows up.
And for some people,
that seems then
to affect the way
that their sexual
attractions develop.
But again,
you've got to be very careful
because there are equally
as many people,
maybe even more people,
who have been born
into that situation
or find themselves
in that situation,
but who it's not
impacted their
sexual attractions
at all.
And then relational factors.
Now this is,
again,
a lot of this
is theory.
It's very difficult
to prove one way or another.
Research has been done
around this area,
but this is to do
now with relationships
mainly within the family,
but also with peer groups.
So for example,
there are some people
who are convinced
that not having
a very good relationship
with their same-sex parents
influences their sexuality.
So I've certainly,
within my work
in Truthroom Trust,
I've met a number of guys
who, for one reason or another,
have not had a great
relationship with dad,
and they seem to think
that that has influenced
the way that their
sexual attractions develop.
The same with girls
not having a very good
relationship with mum.
Very difficult to prove this.
Certainly it is quite
a recurring theme
amongst people
who struggle in this area.
But of course,
just because there's a link
doesn't mean there's necessarily
that that's a cause.
Link doesn't necessarily
mean cause,
but it certainly does
seem to crop up.
One of my fears in this area
is that it can lead
to a sort of
blame-the-parents culture.
Oh, well, it's my dad's fault
because he wasn't there for me.
What we're saying is
it could be a factor
for certain people,
but it's not meant then
to lead to blame
and say,
well, it's because of this
that this has impacted me.
Another area of relational factors
could be abuse.
I mean, I've known
of a number of people,
for example,
who've suffered abuse
in their early years.
And you can imagine,
for example,
take, for example,
a woman who's maybe
been abused
by somebody
of the opposite sex.
You can imagine
how easily
that could lead to her
maybe growing up
almost hating
and fearing
the opposite sex.
And I've known
of a number of women
who've said to me,
like, it's actually,
I feel much safer
with another woman.
So in other words,
they've been driven
into the security
of a relationship
with another woman
because of that
early experience
with an abusive man.
I've known of women
in their later years
who have been
very happily married
and had children,
had no hint
of same-sex desire,
but then in their later years
have developed
same-sex attraction,
sometimes in their
40s and 50s.
Likewise,
that can happen too
with men.
So there are a number
of different factors
that can play a part.
One writer very helpfully
says this,
talking about this
multi-causation model.
This would mean
that the form
and strength
of each person's
same-sex desire
has a distinctive,
perhaps unique mix
of biological
and psychological factors
and it may be better
to speak of homosexualities
in the plural.
I hope you can see
the point that's being made there.
He's basically saying,
look,
each of us are unique.
We're knit together
in our mother's womb.
So different factors
are likely to influence
different people
in different ways.
So there is no one theory
that fits everybody.
You can't simply say,
this is what causes
somebody to be
same-sex attracted.
It is not as simple as that.
There are lots of different factors
that can contribute.
Okay,
you may come back
to that subject
in some of the questions
and pick things up from that.
But for now,
let's think secondly.
What does the Bible teach
about same-sex practice?
Well,
the first thing I think
I need to say
is that the Bible
does only ever speak
about same-sex practice.
Okay,
it never ever talks
in terms of orientation.
That simply is not
a biblical concept at all.
So there is no reference
in the Bible
to people being gay.
There's no reference
in the Bible actually
to people being straight
or bisexual.
That simply is not
a biblical concept.
The Bible only talks
in terms
of sexual practice
and it's basically
divided into two camps.
There is sexual practice
that is pleasing to God
and sexual practice
that is displeasing to God.
Sexual practice
that is pleasing to God
is sex
that takes place
within the context
of a heterosexual marriage
between one man
and one woman.
Sexual practice
that is displeasing to God
is any sex
that takes place
outside of that context.
That's the simplest way
that I can put it
to you this evening.
So there is not
this emphasis
in the Bible
on homosexual practice
as somehow being
the worst of the worst.
You may have picked up
over your past
in teaching
and so on
this word abomination.
We'll talk about that
in a moment.
But I think sometimes
as Christians
we grow up
with this feeling
that homosexual practice
is somehow
the worst sin of all.
Some people say
is it the unforgivable sin?
And that's not at all
the emphasis
in the Bible.
The emphasis
in the Bible
is on God ruling out
any and all
sexual practice
that takes place
outside of heterosexual marriage.
So in fact
what the Bible
is concerned about
is the fact that
sex has been given
by God
as a good gift
to be enjoyed
exclusively
within marriage.
That's the emphasis
in the Bible.
I remember once
hearing a quote
from a woman
called Lynn Lavner.
Lynn Lavner
is an American
and she's a comedian.
She's a Jewish
lesbian comedian.
You're probably not used
to hearing Jewish
lesbian comedians quoted.
You may wonder
what on earth
is he doing
reading that kind
of literature?
Look, it's my job.
I read all kinds
of things.
I'm allowed to.
But Lynn Lavner
she's making
a tongue-in-cheek point here
but she actually
has a very serious point.
She says there are
six admonishments
in the Bible
to homosexual practice.
That's slightly debatable
but it's certainly
less than ten
and 362 admonishments
to heterosexual sin.
That doesn't mean
she says that God
doesn't love heterosexuals
it's just that they
need more supervision.
Now I like that comment.
You see the point
she's making?
She's just seeking
to redress
the balance.
So I want to suggest
to you this evening
that actually
one of the key verses
the key verse
in fact
on sexuality
is found
in Genesis 1-3.
Genesis 1-3
provide what we
could call
a foundation
for developing
a theology
of sexuality.
And I think
it's really important
when we're trying
to debate these issues
and maybe discuss
with friends
the Bible's teaching
on sexuality
that we don't just
run to these
half a dozen
or so verses
that mention
same-sex practice
but that we actually
speak from the
overall teaching
of the Bible
and that's why
I'm saying
that we need
to develop
what I call
a theology
of sexuality
so we understand
God's purpose
for sex
within the Bible.
And so the key
verse I suggest
to you this evening
is actually
this verse
in Genesis 2
verse 24
and I realise
here we're
jumping in
right at the end
of the creation
encounter
I don't really
have time
to go into
all of the
contents
I just
would ask
you to bear
with me
and to accept
that this is
a key verse
and you might
want to look
that up later
and do a little
bit of study
around it
but here if you
like is God's
declaration
invention
of marriage
here is his
definition
what we could
call a theological
definition
of marriage
and there are
three elements
to it
listen to
Genesis 2
24
therefore a man
shall leave
his father
and his mother
and hold
fast to
or united to
some versions
say his wife
and they shall
become one flesh
notice then the
three elements
here's what
defines a marriage
theologically
firstly there is a
man leaving
his father and
mother
that means
leaving his
birth family
his own family
in order to
set up a new
family unit
so there's a
definite
transition
if you like
from his
own family
set up a
new family
there's then a
holding fast to
or a uniting to
his wife
so again that
suggests a
ceremony
something formal
not something
casual
not just we move
in
we're getting on
well let's live
together
no there's
something very
definite
there's a
uniting to
what the bible
will later call
marriage of course
and then you
notice
then and only
then they shall
become one
flesh
and there's the
reference to
sexual union
that one
flesh
sexual union
is meant
if you like
as the
cement
which God
uses
to deepen
and strengthen
a relationship
between a man
and his wife
now why do I
say that is a
key verse
well the reason
I say it's a
key verse
is because when
you get through
to the New
Testament
what you
discover
and I've
given you
three references
there
and what you
discover
is that
actually
Genesis 2
24
is repeated
and reinforced
in the New
Testament
so for
example
Matthew
chapter 19
Jesus there
is being
questioned
by the
Pharisees
on the
subject
of divorce
and in
answering
that
question
Jesus
quotes
Genesis
2
24
word
for word
ok
thereby
reiterating
that marriage
is the only
place
for love
and attraction
to express
themselves
sexually
you'll find
that the
apostle Paul
in Ephesians
5
and 1
Corinthians
6
he also
quotes
Genesis
2
24
word
for word
and it
is a
really
sound
principle
of
biblical
interpretation
that when
New Testament
writers
bring forward
and reiterate
something from
the Old
Testament
that that
means it's
not something
we can simply
dismiss today
some would urge
us to do
and say
well it's
culturally irrelevant
things have
changed today
no
Genesis
2
24
was valid
in
Moses
day
it was
valid in
Jesus
and the
apostles
day
it's
valid
in
our
day
too
so I
like to
think
as
Genesis
2
24
rather like
if you
imagine
the Bible
here
and Genesis
2
24
is like
a thread
that you
can pull
right the way
through the
Bible
beginning in
Genesis
right the way
through the
Old Testament
through Leviticus
where you have
an awful lot
of teaching
on sexuality
and right the way
through to the
New Testament
where
when you come to
the New Testament
you come across
this word
this term
sexual immorality
and sexual
immorality
is actually
a translation
of the Greek
word
porneia
and porneia
in the Greek
really carries
with it the
meaning of
any sex
outside of
heterosexual
marriage
that's really
what's behind
that word
porneia
so porneia
for example
would include
incest
it would include
prostitution
it would include
lust
it would include
same sex practice
it would include
adultery
sometimes people say
well Jesus never
talked about
gay people
he never mentioned
homosexuality
well that's not
strictly true
because if you look
at Matthew 7
for example
Jesus is talking
there about
things that come
out of our hearts
that make us
unclean
impure
and Jesus
in speaking
from Mark 7
uses that term
porneia
and any first century
Jew
hearing Jesus
use that word
would have understood
him to be meaning
all sex
outside of
heterosexual marriage
whether that be
same sex
or opposite sex
so Genesis 2
24
I suggest to you
is the key verse
that's our foundation
and what I want to do
then is just look at
two of the specific
references
we're not going to
look at every single
one of the references
that mention
same sex practice
I'm just going to
take two as an
example
and the first is
Leviticus 18
verse 22
now this is the one
which of course
is familiar to many
people
you shall not
lie with a man
as with a woman
it is an
abomination
and I don't know
about you
but I find that
sometimes this is
the phrase
that is latched
onto by some
Christians
certainly this is
when you're talking
to people maybe
who are outside
of the church
those who identify
as gay
this is maybe
what they have
heard in the past
and this thought
that homosexuality
is an abomination
and therefore
it gives the impression
that we're saying
that actually
it's the worst
of the worst
but I want to
issue a little
challenge to you
this evening
I want to suggest
that after tonight
at some stage
you go home
and you do a little
concordance search
of that word
abomination
or if you're using
the NIV
it will probably
be translated
detestable
so detestable
or an abomination
do a little word
search
and see what
you come up with
you might be
quite surprised
so for example
there are a number
of different verses
in Proverbs
that suggests
that things
such as lying
are an abomination
to God
haughty eyes
that is proud eyes
eyes that look down
upon other people
gay people perhaps
that's an abomination
to God
there's a verse
in Proverbs
that says that
anyone who
turns a deaf ear
to God's words
in other words
you read something
in the Bible
and you think
oh dear that's a bit tough
I'll tell you what
I'll give that a miss
and I'll have a time
of prayer instead
and then praise
says this verse
their prayers
are an abomination
to God
isn't that quite scary
none of us
have ever done that
before
dodgy weighing scales
are an abomination
to God
dodgy weighing scales
some of you are
looking really worried
now
it's not bathroom scales
don't worry
we're talking here
weights and measures
just for the sake
of clarity
but you see
the important point
is we mustn't
get carried away
and some Christians
I think in the past
have got really
carried away
and they sort of
zoom in on this
word abomination
and particularly
if we're using
it selectively
to apply to
one particular sin
whereas in fact
the Bible
would apply it
to all kinds
of sins
as I say
I issue that
challenge
just to have a
little search
through Proverbs
and to dwell
on some of those
verses in there
now of course
the other argument
about a verse
like Leviticus
and this is an
argument that's
often put to me
is well look
you Christians
it's all very well
but you're selective
with the way you
treat the Old Testament
so you take
certain things
from Leviticus
and you say
well that applies
today
but then other
things you say
well no that
doesn't apply
today
so for example
most Christians
I know
would be quite
happy eating
a BLT sandwich
or a packet
of prawn cocktail
crisps
but what about
the teaching
in Leviticus
that says
we shouldn't
eat pork
and we shouldn't
eat shellfish
now how do we
sort of bring
those two things
together and reconcile
them
well what about
that verse
in Leviticus
that talks about
not wearing
clothing
made of mixed
fibers
we could do
a little exercise
tonight and check
each other's labels
we won't
it will get
very embarrassing
we're not going
to do it
but you know
why isn't the church
speaking out about
the abomination
of polycotton shirts
now again
it can make us smile
but actually it's a
very serious point
how do we argue this
how do we answer
that kind of question
well the great news
is that actually
Jesus hasn't left
us in the dark
he's made it very clear
how we're to interpret
the Old Testament
in the Sermon on the Mount
Jesus says
I've not come
to abolish the law
so he's not come
simply to dismiss it
but he has come
he says
to fulfill it
that means to complete it
to fill it up
we could say
so surely when we're
deciding which of the
Old Testament laws
no longer apply
to God's people
Christian people
today
we have to consider
which of them
Jesus has fulfilled
through his coming
into the world
and his death
on the cross
that's the basis
so let me give you
an example
on that basis
we can say
with confidence
that none of the
sacrificial laws
have to be followed
by Christians today
I mean I didn't see
anybody sacrificing
a pigeon or anything
as you came through
the door today
to make yourself clean
why don't we do that
well we don't do that
because the writer
of Hebrews tells us
Christ died
once for all
it's not that Jesus
has abolished the law
he has fulfilled it
he is the fulfillment
of all of that
Old Testament teaching
on sacrifice and ritual
so actually now
as Christians
we have the freedom
to come to God
directly through Christ
we don't have to
make sacrifices
another example
on that basis
we know that we can
with confidence
eat a BLT sandwich
or prawn cocktail
crisper
whatever it is
we might like
how do we know that
well because
Mark 7 verse 19
Jesus declared
all foods clean
ok
so that's the basis
on which we interpret
the Old Testament
but
I would challenge
anybody
to find anywhere
in the New Testament
where Jesus now declares
all sexual practices
now clean
look through the Gospels
it simply isn't there
in fact
in all of the teaching
in the Old Testament
everything that Jesus teaches
everything that the Apostles
teaches
it backs up
everything that's taught
in the Old Testament
so it backs up
that Genesis 2.24 principle
it backs up
the Levitical
holiness code
if you like
which is
the way that
God's people
were to be holy
and one of the ways
in which God's people
are to be holy
is through sexual morality
and that's not been
fulfilled if you like
by Christ
because actually
Jesus teaches
his Apostles teach
that today
we are to flee
from sexual immorality
we're to avoid
sexual immorality
so I hope that just
helps a little bit
maybe when we're
discussing these issues
with friends
so that's one
from the Old Testament
let's just take one
from the New Testament
this is a passage
we looked at
in some detail
this morning
and I don't want
to look at it
in detail now
and I think
that will be
on the Karaglion
website
will it
at some stage
so if you want
to hear a little bit
more about this
I just want to
very briefly
touch on it
a couple of things
firstly I want you
to notice
that same-sex
practice here
this is the ESV
version
and it's a paraphrase
men who practice
homosexuality
and there's a little
bit on this morning's
teaching about
the two words
that have been
translated there
a paraphrase
men who practice
homosexuality
but I want you
to notice
that that is
listed alongside
a number of
other sinful
practices
and Paul is not
highlighting
men who practice
homosexuality
and saying it's
worse
he's actually
listing it
alongside
things such as
greed
and drunkenness
reviling
or slandering
they're all listed
there as marks
if you like
this is those
who continuously
and consistently
live in these
kinds of ways
these are the
marks that they're
going to display
but the main
thing I want
you to notice
from this
passage
is actually
that there's
a great
challenge
and a great
message of
hope in
that
because having
listed these
various sinful
behaviours
look what Paul
says
this is in
verse 11
he says
and such
were some
of you
now remember
he's writing
here to
Christian people
not to the
world
but to
Christians
another
translation
puts it
some of
you once
lived this
way
but he
says
you were
washed
that is
made clean
sanctified
made holy
justified
brought into
a right
relationship
with God
in the name
of the Lord
Jesus Christ
and by the
spirit
of our God
so Paul
is saying
that actually
look in the
church in
Corinth
nearly 2,000
years ago
there were
Christians
who had come
from all of
these kinds
of backgrounds
including
some who
had been
practising
homosexuality
but they're
not outside
the church
they're not
alienated
from the
church
they're
actually
inside
the church
they're
in the
church
because
they've
had
a
saving
life
changing
encounter
with
Jesus
Christ
and the
implication
of course
of him
saying
such
were
some
of you
is that
look
you
used
to
live
these
kinds
of
ways
but
you
don't
live
those
ways
anymore
because
of
what's
happened
to you
in
Christ
Jesus
so
actually
that
should
give
great
hope
perhaps
to those
Christians
that we
know
or maybe
those
Christians
here this
evening
who struggle
in this
area
be encouraged
because
actually
this is
Paul is
wanting to
encourage
you and
say
look
you've
actually
been
redeemed
you've
been
rescued
you're
on a
level
with
every
other
Christian
who's
come
from
all
these
other
kinds
of
backgrounds
as
well
but
it
also
sends
out
I
think
a
great
challenge
to
the
church
that
actually
we
shouldn't
have
a
situation
where
the
gay
community
to use
that
phrase
is
completely
alienated
and
separated
from
the
church
if
the
church
is
being
authentic
and
is
preaching
the
gospel
to
all
kinds
of
people
then
really
in
our
churches
we
should
have
people
who
used
to
identify
as
gay
but
who
don't
anymore
because
of
that
encounter
with
Jesus
Christ
and
it's
really
on
that
note
of
hope
that
I
want
to
conclude
this
evening
as
we
think
about
our
final
question
before
we
move
through
to
a
break
and
then
to
your
questions
and
it's
this
question
what
hope
does
the
gospel
then
hold
out
to
those
for
whom
this
is
a
personal
issue
is
there
a
gospel
for
the
person
who
perhaps
right
now
is
identifying
as
gay
lesbian
bi
maybe
is
involved
in
a
same
sex
relationship
is
there
a
gospel
for
the
Christian
who
is
struggling
in
this
way
and
wondering
how
on earth
can
God
still
love
them
they keep
slipping
up
and
falling
and
struggling
in
this
area
can
God
still
love
them
is
there
a
gospel
for
the
Christian
who
struggles
in
this
way
I
want
to
suggest
to
you
absolutely
yes
100%
the
gospel
is
good
news
for
all
kinds
of
people
from
all
kinds
of
backgrounds
with
all
kinds
of
struggles
it's
really
sad
when
sometimes
as
Christians
and we
all
do
this
we're
all
in
danger
of
it
we can
write
off
can't
we
certain
people
maybe
it's
that
person
that
you
work
with
maybe
it's
that
neighbor
maybe
it's
even
that
family
member
who
seems
to be
so
far
away
from
God
and
we
just
cannot
envisage
God
possibly
reaching
out to
that
person
and yet
so
often
that
is
the
very
person
that
God
will
be
touching
and
putting
his
hand
on
and
saying
I
want
you
I
want
you
in
my
kingdom
so
let's
not
ever
write
anybody
off
God
is
in
the
business
of
rescuing
people
that
we
might
consider
to be
the
most
unlikely
of
all
remember
the
whole
ministry
of
Jesus
was
focused
on
reaching
out
to
the
marginalized
and
the
alienated
those
that
other
people
often
had
rejected
and
written
off
and
I
want
to
give
you
three
ways
in
which
I
believe
the
gospel
is
good
news
particularly
for
those
who
struggle
in
this
whole
area
of
same
sex
attraction
firstly
it
is
good
news
of
a
new
beginning
good
news
of
a
new
beginning
so
to
Corinthian
Christians
whereas
remember
we've
just
seen
there
were
those
some
of
whom
had
come
from
a
background
of
being
involved
in
same
sex
practice
Paul
writes
if
anyone
is
in
Christ
he
or
she
is
a
new
creation
the
old
is
gone
the
new
has
come
now
I
need
to
be
absolutely
clear
that
what
Paul
is
not
promising
in
that
verse
he's
not
promising
to
the
person
who
struggles
with
same
sex
relationship
you
come
to
Christ
and
miraculously
overnight
you're
transformed
into
a
full
blooded
heterosexual
and
you
go
on
and
get
married
and
2.4
children
and
move
into
a
detached
house
get
a
nice
car
plasma
TV
and
a
dog
and
so
on
he's
not
promising
that
may
happen
but it's
very unlikely
to happen
in that way
as regards
myself
as I said
I was in a
same sex
relationship
before I
came to
Christ
I have
not
gone on
to
get
married
I've
not
been
healed
or cured
of
same
sex
relationship
nor do
I think
that's
particularly
helpful
language
to use
really
in this
context
and
pray
over
me
went
forward
at
one
prayer
meeting
and
a
pastor
prayed
over
me
and
I
went
forward
and
whispered
look
I'm
struggling
with
homosexuality
I'd
like
to be
set
free
he said
brother
you have
been
set
free
from
your
homosexuality
in
rather
a loud
voice
which
was
quite
embarrassing
you
should
go
home
now
and
he
said
just
live
out
your
straight
life
believe
it
claim
it
by
faith
that
was
it
lasted
about
20
minutes
before
I
realised
nothing
had
changed
at
all
I
think
I
remember
watching
a film
with
Matt
Damon
and
he
was
still
looking
as
he
was
before
so
clearly
God
hasn't
taken
it
away
at
all
but
that's
very
dangerous
isn't
it
when
people
are
making
those
kinds
of
promises
God
does
not
normally
intervene
in that
kind of
way
not to
say
that
he
can't
but
he
doesn't
normally
same
sex
practice
or
you
have
gay
relationship
whatever
it
may
be
if
you
come
to
Christ
you
are
guaranteed
a new
beginning
in fact
he's
saying
to
anybody
who's
strayed
in
whatever
way
from
God's
purposes
for
sex
and
marriage
whether
that
be
homosexually
or
heterosexually
come
to
Christ
the slate
is
wiped
completely
clean
full
and
free
forgiveness
in
Christ
that
means
that
the
person
who
has
struggled
in
this
way
being
involved
in
the
same
sex
race
doesn't
need
to
carry
guilt
or
shame
there
is
often
an awful
lot of
guilt
and shame
wrapped up
in this
whole
era of
homosexuality
but Paul
is saying
look
you have
a new
beginning
you have
been
forgiven
you have
been
freed
from
the
consequences
of that
past
life
and
over time
of course
God
by his
Holy
Spirit
as he
dwells
within
a new
believer
does
bring
about
transformation
in terms
of
behaviour
so
I can't
have
taken
away
my
same
sex
attraction
but
what
he
has
done
is
over
the
years
he
has
been
at
work
transforming
me
so
he's
taught
me
that
it's
possible
to be
self
controlled
I
haven't
done
that
perfectly
in all
the years
I've
been
a
Christian
but
little
by
little
God
has
been
teaching
me
that
it's
not
essential
to
life
to be
in a
sexual
relationship
and I
think
that's
quite
shocking
for our
culture
we're
in a
very
sexualised
culture
and I
feel
for young
people
particularly
there's
a real
pressure
to be
in a
sexual
relationship
at a
very
young
age
and
actually
it is
not
essential
to life
and I
think
we need
to be
shouting
that
in a
sense
as
Christians
remember
the
Lord
Jesus
he was
the
perfect
man
the most
fulfilled
man
you could
ever
meet
yet
he
was
never
married
he
wasn't
in a
sexual
relationship
so
it's
good news
of a
what do
I mean
by that
when we
become
Christians
from
whatever
background
we are
of course
adopted
into
God's
family
we become
sons
and
daughters
of God
well in fact
we all
become
sons
of God
but I'm
not going
to go
there
this evening
you can
ask
Johnny
about that
he can
do a
series
on why
we're
all
sons
of
God
if he
hasn't
already
but we
all are
adopted
into
God's
family
we all
are given
the benefits
of being
a son
of God
an adopted
son of
God
and really
this new
community
ought to be
marked out
by love
and acceptance
and burden
bearing
and deep
friendship
and support
so that when
somebody comes
into the church
from whatever
background
they are
received with
love
and accepted
now when we
talk about
acceptance
I don't mean
accepting
sinful behaviour
but actually
at the beginning
if you think
about it
a Christian
who comes
from one
of these
kinds
of
backgrounds
is going
to have
an ongoing
struggle
they're not
going to
have a
perfect
Christian
life
they are
going to
have
battles
and they're
going to
slip up
and they're
going to
fall
and they're
going to
fail
and they're
going to
need an awful
lot of
love
and patience
and encouragement
and friendship
it's going to be
really important
if you think
about it
particularly
the Christian
who has
come from
a background
of same
sex attraction
who finds
that God
doesn't take
that away
that they
don't develop
opposite
sex attraction
they potentially
then are
facing a life
of being
single
that's the
reality
let's not
hold back
about that
that is the
potential reality
for many
Christians who
struggle in
this way
they may
not be
able to
get married
they may
then be
facing a
life of
singleness
and they
need support
and encouragement
I think it's
really important
in fact that the
church is very
positive about
singleness
I consider
my singleness
now to be a
gift from God
the Bible talks
about it in
terms of it
being a gift
I haven't always
thought that way
it's taken time
for me to
learn to
accept that
this is actually
a gift
it gives me
freedom that
other Christians
don't have
freedom in
ministry
freedom in
lots of
different ways
and I think
the church
needs to be
very positive
about singleness
and not putting
pressure on people
who are single
to get married
I lost count
really the number
of times when I
first went into
Christian ministry
in a church
and I was a
sort of assistant
minister and I
was in my
twenties and
people were
forever trying to
set me up
with somebody
of the opposite
sex
and you know
if you're single
here you know
how this works
you get invited
out to Sunday
lunch
and there they
are they're
all lined up
aren't they
on the opposite
side of the
table
all the
eligible people
of the
opposite sex
and it's just
the sort of
mint sauce
and the salt
and pepper
separating you
from this
life of bliss
and commitment
or as a
pastor of course
one of the many
duties you have
as a pastor
is you know
conducting funerals
and weddings
and baby
dedications
thanksgivings
whatever you
may call them
or as one of
my colleagues
calls it
hatch match
and dispatch
which I
think is not
a very nice
way to
shorthand for it
but I remember
getting to the
stage where as
a minister
I almost
and you may
find this a
bit warped
but bear with
me
I almost
began to
prefer taking
the funerals
and you think
what
how could any
minister prefer
to take a funeral
well generally
because what I
used to find at
a funeral is that
people didn't
sidle up to me
at the end and
say oh
Jonathan you
could be next
have you ever
noticed that
people don't
tend to say
that at
funerals
and ever wondered
why
could it be
that it would
be a little
bit insensitive
to do that
at a funeral
well I want
to suggest
in all seriousness
actually it's
really insensitive
to do it at a
wedding too
because it
actually puts
people under
pressure
and there are
lots of
I know lots
of Christians
who are single
and they're
sort of moving
into their
twenties and
thirties and
feeling a real
pressure
some of them
want to be
married
some of them
just haven't
found the right
person
there can be
a whole number
of reasons why
people are not
married or why
a young person
isn't in a
relationship
and I think
if we're
constantly putting
people under
pressure in that
way it actually
really doesn't
help and I
think you know
I try to
encourage younger
people look
while you're
not in a
relationship enjoy
being single
it's an enjoyable
time of life
it should be an
enjoyable time of
life so we need
to be really
positive about
singleness if
we're going to
have this new
community we need
to recognise that
some people within
that community and
it won't necessarily
because they're
struggling with
same sex attraction
could be for a
whole host of
reasons won't be
married some of
course will be
divorced some will
be widowed and
we need to be as
welcoming to the
single person as
we are to the
married person so
the gospel is good
news of a new
beginning good news
of a new community
and finally and very
briefly it is good
news of a new
world when somebody
comes to faith in
Christ the reality is
that we don't know
what God may choose
to do in that
individual's life
some people do want
to get married they
come out of this
background of a
same sex practice
or they may be as
a Christian have
grown up with a
same sex struggle
and actually they're
longing to be
married and I've
had the joy of
supporting a number
of people in fact
attending the
marriages of a
number of people
who have had this
struggle but have
gone on to get
married and when I
see that happening
for me that's
fantastic absolutely
rejoice when that
happens I think of a
good friend of mine
at Bible college who
once vowed to me
that he would never
be able to get
married because of
his own so I
remember him saying
don't worry I'm
not going to
abandon you I'll
always be here for
you as a friend I'm
never going to be
able to get
married and he
is now married and
we are still good
friends so that's
good as well but I
just rejoice with
him you know he has
had that experience
of God transforming
his attractions to
such an extent that
he's been able to go
on and get married
he has a lovely
godly wife knows
about his struggle
two beautiful
children that's
absolutely wonderful
but that isn't going
to be the reality for
many people in fact I
have to say in my
experience it's not the
reality for most people
who struggle in this
way most people are
not going to have that
experience of finding
their sexual
attractions changing
to such an extent
that they'll be able
to get married some
do and certainly we
can pray for people
and we can support
people but we need to
be realistic with
people and we
certainly need to be
careful not to make
false promises we
cannot promise
someone don't worry
God will know God
will lead you to
someone the opposite
sense God will take
away those desires we
simply don't know
that is not a gospel
promise and I've
sadly had to work with
a number of people who
are kind of casualties
at the side of the
Christian road and this
is in all kinds of
areas actually not just
in the area of sexuality
where they've been
promised that if they
have enough faith God
will do this or God
will take this away and
it's very dangerous
teaching because that
isn't a gospel promise
what the gospel does
promise and this is the
hope that I have and
it's the hope that a
number of people who
struggle in this area
have what the gospel
does promise is that a
day is coming when God
is going to rise from
his throne and in great
glory he's going to say
behold I make
everything new and on
that day we're assured
that will all of us if
we're trusting in Jesus
Christ be new people in
a new world and it's a
world where there'll be
no more sin no more
mourning no more death
no more crying no more
pain for the old order
of things will be taken
away and on that day
every single one of us
whatever our particular
struggle let's be honest
as Christians we all
have our struggles here
tonight may not be in
the area of sexuality
it may be in a whole
number of different
areas but whatever our
struggle we will be able
to say that my past
struggles are simply
not worth comparing to
the glory now revealed in
me and I suggest you
that is the great hope of
the gospel that is the
greatest hope we can
have in walking
alongside someone who
struggles in this way
we can be a friend to
them now we can reassure
them of that new
beginning we can welcome
them into the new
community but ultimately
we're assuring them that
there is a new world to
come when there will be
no more struggle of any
kind and that I suggest to
you is the great hope of
the gospel I have gone
beyond my time so I'm going
to be quiet now and
Johnny you going to come
talk about the questions
thanks Jonathan we're going
to have tea and coffee now
served from the hatch and
we have gone over time a
little bit so if you want a
cup of tea and coffee
please go and get that
quickly if you need the
bathrooms use the
bathrooms as well but
during this break for 10
minutes and if you do have
a question and then just
simply write it on the
piece of paper there are
the yellow sticky powder
they around there Rob has
them at the back and so
they'll be at the back there
if you have a question just
write it on one of those
yellow sticky labels and give
it to me and then we will
put those because some of
you might not want to ask
questions publicly if you're
happy to ask them publicly
that's fine but if you have
a question just write it on
that pad and pass them on to
me and we'll go from there
so quickly tea and coffee
just 10 minute break and I'm
going to bring you back
prompt to on that thanks
thank you
Mike
thank you
Thank you.