WEBVTT

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 open up in prayer.

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 Do you want to open us up in prayer? Sure.

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 Lord Jesus, we are

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 thankful for this Sunday.

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 We thank you for gathering us together

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 and we pray that this time

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 would be one that shows us how

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 we can walk with one another, bear with

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 one another in

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 truth and in grace, Lord. Teach

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 us how we can reflect Christ to one

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 another. We thank you for

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 the ways you have knit us together as a body

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 and we pray that this time would

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 be filled with encouragement. In Jesus' name

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 we pray. Amen.

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 Amen. Alright, welcome to our final

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 faith and mental health

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 class.

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 On Memorial Day weekend.

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 So this will be

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 our last class on this

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 topic for now. Maybe we'll have a part

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 to

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 at some point in the future, but we're super glad you all

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 are here. Today we're going to

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 be specifically talking about how

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 can those of us in the church, how can we

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 as a church support people who are

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 struggling with mental illness?

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 And we think the church actually

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 has, should be the place

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 where people who are struggling and

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 suffering ideally would come.

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 And we want to figure out how is we, how can we

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 as a church really facilitate being

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 that place as Christ has called us to be.

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 And just as a brief

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 recap, because I know it's, we took a break

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 last week. So the first week we were talking

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 about what are the causes of mental

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 illness? Is it due to sin

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 or personal weakness versus

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 kind of our understanding of biological,

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 genetic, psychological, and

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 social factors? The second

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 week we talked about, you know, can

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 Christians have mental illness and what in

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 the Christian culture can get in the way

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 of accepting the

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 struggle with mental illness? And then

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 week three was, okay, if you believe that

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 Christians can have mental illness,

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 how does a Christian go around navigating,

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 getting treatment?

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 And so

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 this week we're circling back to something

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 that we had talked about a couple

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 weeks ago, which is a new vision

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 of what church can

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 look like.

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 And so we've kind of broken up our

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 session today into four,

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 three to four different areas.

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 So one would be nuanced understandings.

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 The second would be vulnerability.

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 The third, and we'll probably end on this,

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 is grace and humility and bearing with

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 each other. And the fourth,

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 which is more of like a culture

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 church thing,

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 would be around lament and celebration.

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 But we'll spend the majority of our time

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 on the first three.

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 And so for each of these, we'll talk about

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 what is it, what gets in the way,

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 and the factors that promote it.

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 Two, three.

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 Oh my goodness, sorry.

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 We are,

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 oh, thank you, thank you.

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 Oh, perfect, okay.

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 Could have been a good test of my memory.

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 All right, so

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 just to start us off with a quote,

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 I really like this book,

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 so just a quick book recommendation.

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 It's called Troubled Minds,

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 Mental Illness, and the Church's Mission.

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 It's written by a woman who is an author

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 and has worked in church ministry, I think,

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 and her mother has schizophrenia.

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 So she writes from kind of a objective perspective

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 and a personal perspective.

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 So I'm just going to read this quote.

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 The church can and should be at the forefront

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 of this move toward loving acceptance

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 and open support for those with mental illness.

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 In the words of the Apostle Paul,

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 God has put the body together

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 such that extra honor and care

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 are given to those parts that have less dignity.

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 This makes for harmony among the members

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 so that all the members care for each other.

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 If one part suffers, all parts suffer with it.

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 And if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.

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 So then she asks,

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 does this passage describe your church's approach

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 to those among you who have less dignity,

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 to those who are suffering?

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 So we want to start off by just putting this question

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 to all of you.

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 Thinking, I guess, about Trinity specifically

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 and about maybe we as a church,

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 sort of more broadly as a Christian church,

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 to what extent does this characterize

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 our approach to those who are suffering

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 with mental illness?

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 So to what extent do we,

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 are we at the forefront of loving acceptance

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 and open support of those with mental illness?

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 And maybe how are we or how aren't we?

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 And how do you see that?

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 No, it would seem to me

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 that the establishment of the care team

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 moves us much closer to that

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 where the burden is not so much on the staff.

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 Like how can we make it not just leadership

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 who's caring for those with mental illness,

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 but rather us as a church body

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 caring for one another.

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 Yeah?

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 Agreed.

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 Absolutely.

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 Yeah.

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 What do other people think?

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 And again, this could be,

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 again, our church specifically

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 or just churches that you have been in.

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 I'll say awareness,

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 like classes like this.

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 I didn't know that mental health professionals

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 were, you know,

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 attended Trinity.

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 And so I didn't know

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 there was any expertise to draw from there.

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 So awareness.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 There's something like

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 making it a visible conversation topic.

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 Like, maybe it's a little hard to just

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 after church be like,

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 oh, I have depression.

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 Right.

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 But, I mean,

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 I mean, I do things like that,

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 but that's, you know,

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 sometimes socially awkward.

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 So, yeah.

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 Having like an organized format

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 where it's a little more visible.

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 Carefully consider

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 teaching and discussion,

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 not just,

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 again,

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 taking the burden off leadership

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 where we expect

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 that statistic about

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 pastors addressing mental illness,

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 what was it,

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 one-third of them

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 less than one time a year

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 or something like that.

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 And so,

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 there's reasons why

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 we,

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 our pastors can't

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 hit every issue

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 in front

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 that every person is facing

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 from the pulpit

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 each year

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 because

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 there's

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 as many individuals

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 as there are

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 there's as many

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 specific issues

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 they're going through.

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 Right.

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 So,

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 especially this verse

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 is helpful

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 to point out

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 that the diversity

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 of

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 the body's

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 functions

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 help

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 hold us together.

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 It's not just

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 the head's job

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 to do everything.

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 Mm-hmm.

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 Mm-hmm.

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 Mm-hmm.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah, absolutely.

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 That whole thing

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 of the head,

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 my pastor

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 in D.C.,

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 he would talk

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 very openly

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 about himself

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 being in counseling

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 in front of the pulpit

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 and to me

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 that was like

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 very refreshing.

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 Yeah,

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 just like,

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 I don't know,

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 I think he did a lot

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 to kind of

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 destigmatize it

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 and show like

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 just because

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 you're in counseling

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 like everyone needs

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 help sometimes

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 and it's not like

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 obviously we all

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 have,

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 and thank you

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 for the good

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 Godly man.

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 Mm-hmm.

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 So it wasn't like,

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 so I thought

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 that that was,

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 I don't know,

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 as far as like

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 the dignity

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 and I think

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 that went along

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 the way.

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 Yeah,

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 good segue

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 to our vulnerability

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 topic later.

00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:40.740
 Yeah,

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 Tyler.

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 I'd say truly

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 from when I got here

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 eight years ago,

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 I've always found

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 it in a place

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 where,

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 at least initially

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 where the teaching

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 gifts were really

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 valued among the body

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 and I think

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 you can go

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 too far

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 in that direction

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 where you value

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 those who are

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 articulate

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 and teach the Bible

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 and those are

00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:02.360
 all great things.

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 but I think

00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:04.160
 the recent years

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 I think by some

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 of the people

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 at Columbus House

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 who have come

00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:07.280
 into membership

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 and that type

00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:08.400
 here,

00:08:09.400 --> 00:08:10.120
 one person in

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 particular

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 who has a mental

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 illness

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 and,

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 you know,

00:08:14.900 --> 00:08:15.639
 she's very open

00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:16.120
 about it.

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 So I've seen

00:08:17.460 --> 00:08:17.759
 the teaching

00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:18.379
 maternity grow

00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:19.000
 in that regard.

00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:20.520
 It may have

00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:22.120
 valued or have

00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:22.400
 been open

00:08:22.400 --> 00:08:23.199
 before I got here

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 but that's just

00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:24.319
 the progression

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 of it.

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 Yeah.

00:08:26.020 --> 00:08:26.800
 And that's a great,

00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:27.560
 oh sorry Stephanie,

00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:27.839
 yeah.

00:08:28.139 --> 00:08:28.420
 Oh no,

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 I was just

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 going to say

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 like those

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 are,

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 it's also worth

00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:31.839
 asking like how

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 did we make

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 that shift?

00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:33.539
 Like how do we

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 become a church

00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:35.019
 that welcomes

00:08:35.019 --> 00:08:36.299
 people like that

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 and value gifts

00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:37.919
 from the pulpit

00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:38.419
 or elsewhere

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 like in ways

00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:40.399
 that leadership

00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:40.960
 may model?

00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:42.440
 Yeah.

00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:44.980
 In terms of

00:08:44.980 --> 00:08:45.559
 the broader

00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:46.659
 church in this

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 country,

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 I was really

00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:50.279
 amazed

00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:51.360
 that the book

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 had dementia

00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.059
 sold five or

00:08:54.059 --> 00:08:55.000
 six times more

00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:55.960
 than any of the

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 other books.

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 that is such

00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:00.579
 a critical

00:09:00.579 --> 00:09:01.319
 need.

00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:02.000
 Yeah.

00:09:02.199 --> 00:09:02.519
 Yeah.

00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:04.319
 Yeah.

00:09:04.779 --> 00:09:05.179
 Absolutely.

00:09:05.819 --> 00:09:06.439
 Evangeline has

00:09:06.439 --> 00:09:07.019
 some things to

00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:07.720
 add clearly.

00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:08.000
 Yeah.

00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:15.399
 Specific to

00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:15.879
 Trinity

00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:17.039
 and things

00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:17.839
 that I've seen

00:09:17.839 --> 00:09:19.120
 and have been

00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:20.120
 my experience

00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:21.259
 is when

00:09:21.259 --> 00:09:21.860
 Sammy was

00:09:21.860 --> 00:09:22.639
 very young,

00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:25.139
 the people

00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:25.799
 within the

00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:26.500
 congregation

00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:27.980
 stepped up.

00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:28.639
 We had

00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:29.960
 two sleep

00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:30.539
 deprived

00:09:30.539 --> 00:09:31.399
 EEG,

00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:32.899
 which meant

00:09:32.899 --> 00:09:33.799
 everybody was

00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:34.159
 going to be

00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:34.919
 sleep deprived.

00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:37.080
 And we had

00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.799
 people from

00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:38.200
 Trinity

00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:39.240
 who signed

00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:40.460
 up to come

00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:40.820
 in,

00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:41.340
 play with

00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:41.659
 Sammy,

00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:42.659
 overnight,

00:09:42.740 --> 00:09:43.159
 so mom and

00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:43.700
 dad could get

00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:44.179
 some sleep

00:09:44.179 --> 00:09:45.159
 and actually be

00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:45.860
 awake for when

00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:46.440
 they needed to

00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:46.860
 be awake.

00:09:46.860 --> 00:09:47.340
 Right, right,

00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:47.580
 right.

00:09:47.580 --> 00:09:49.080
 And then we

00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:49.620
 had other

00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:50.220
 people who

00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:50.660
 would just

00:09:50.660 --> 00:09:51.220
 show up at

00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:51.840
 our doorstep

00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:52.420
 on Friday

00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:52.900
 night and

00:09:52.900 --> 00:09:53.080
 say,

00:09:53.220 --> 00:09:53.540
 you and

00:09:53.540 --> 00:09:54.259
 your husband

00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:54.600
 are going

00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:54.940
 out to

00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:55.300
 dinner and

00:09:55.300 --> 00:09:55.600
 a movie

00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:55.940
 tonight.

00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:56.200
 Goodbye,

00:09:56.280 --> 00:09:56.520
 we don't

00:09:56.520 --> 00:09:56.900
 want to see

00:09:56.900 --> 00:09:57.280
 you until

00:09:57.280 --> 00:09:57.800
 9 or 10

00:09:57.800 --> 00:09:58.120
 o'clock.

00:09:58.560 --> 00:09:59.000
 Sammy would

00:09:59.000 --> 00:09:59.300
 not have

00:09:59.300 --> 00:09:59.720
 things to

00:09:59.720 --> 00:09:59.920
 do.

00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:00.240
 That would

00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:00.580
 be Miss

00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:01.139
 Dorothy who

00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:01.600
 did that.

00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:04.200
 You fast

00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:05.300
 forward into

00:10:05.300 --> 00:10:07.220
 the youth

00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:07.940
 group years

00:10:07.940 --> 00:10:08.720
 where they

00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:09.300
 would go on

00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:10.040
 retreat and

00:10:10.040 --> 00:10:10.560
 I would have

00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:10.980
 to pack

00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:12.320
 bags of

00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:13.000
 special food

00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:13.840
 because Sammy

00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:14.520
 is gluten and

00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:15.220
 casein free.

00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:16.080
 And in

00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:17.180
 those days

00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:17.800
 that was

00:10:17.800 --> 00:10:19.379
 much bigger

00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:19.899
 of a deal

00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:20.580
 than it is

00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:21.340
 these days.

00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:23.000
 And Miss

00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:23.759
 Kirsten who

00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:24.139
 said,

00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:24.680
 you don't

00:10:24.680 --> 00:10:25.040
 have to

00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:25.480
 bring about

00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:25.759
 a thing,

00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:26.160
 you're not

00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:26.779
 doing anything

00:10:26.779 --> 00:10:27.220
 and I've

00:10:27.220 --> 00:10:27.580
 got one of

00:10:27.580 --> 00:10:28.019
 my daughters

00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:28.420
 who's going

00:10:28.420 --> 00:10:28.820
 to shadow

00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:29.960
 Sammy so

00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:31.680
 she's ready

00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:32.120
 to roll.

00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:34.160
 Well, those

00:10:34.160 --> 00:10:34.860
 were all

00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:35.940
 examples of

00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:37.120
 people within

00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:38.100
 this church

00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:38.680
 and believe

00:10:38.680 --> 00:10:39.160
 me, I

00:10:39.160 --> 00:10:40.040
 have talked,

00:10:40.620 --> 00:10:41.019
 I've done

00:10:41.019 --> 00:10:42.040
 many presentations

00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:42.800
 and talked

00:10:42.800 --> 00:10:43.379
 to other

00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:44.220
 churches about

00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:45.440
 how well

00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:46.460
 Trinity did

00:10:46.460 --> 00:10:47.980
 this without

00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:48.800
 there having

00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:49.779
 to be a

00:10:49.779 --> 00:10:50.840
 programmatic

00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:53.560
 example

00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:54.480
 within them.

00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:55.700
 They just

00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:56.259
 did it.

00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:57.740
 And that

00:10:57.740 --> 00:10:58.279
 was something

00:10:58.279 --> 00:10:59.040
 that was a

00:10:59.040 --> 00:10:59.800
 true blessing

00:10:59.800 --> 00:11:00.300
 and something

00:11:00.300 --> 00:11:00.980
 I think really

00:11:00.980 --> 00:11:02.160
 unique to

00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:02.840
 this body

00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:03.480
 of believers.

00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:05.820
 That's so

00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:06.180
 beautiful.

00:11:06.420 --> 00:11:06.779
 And I think

00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:07.100
 it really

00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:07.940
 illustrates well

00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:09.759
 over somebody's

00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:10.639
 lifetime what

00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:11.899
 different needs

00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:12.680
 may look like

00:11:12.680 --> 00:11:13.259
 and the different

00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:14.080
 people that can

00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:15.580
 step in and

00:11:15.580 --> 00:11:16.660
 be a team

00:11:16.660 --> 00:11:17.120
 and walk

00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:17.879
 alongside that.

00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:19.100
 Rather than

00:11:19.100 --> 00:11:19.639
 just mom

00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:20.680
 for that

00:11:20.680 --> 00:11:21.660
 paying attention.

00:11:22.060 --> 00:11:22.460
 And that

00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:23.440
 I really

00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:24.920
 found incredibly

00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:26.000
 helpful and

00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:26.440
 supportive.

00:11:27.300 --> 00:11:28.639
 And now that

00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:29.200
 she can give

00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:30.060
 back, which is

00:11:30.060 --> 00:11:30.960
 really wonderful,

00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:33.340
 I think it's

00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:34.560
 an exciting

00:11:34.560 --> 00:11:36.220
 piece to see

00:11:36.220 --> 00:11:36.700
 happen.

00:11:36.700 --> 00:11:37.480
 It's come full

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:37.759
 circle.

00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:39.460
 That's wonderful.

00:11:39.460 --> 00:11:41.780
 Well, thank

00:11:41.780 --> 00:11:42.320
 you all for

00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:42.780
 sharing.

00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:44.600
 So I think

00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:45.320
 the first

00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:47.400
 section that

00:11:47.400 --> 00:11:47.900
 we wanted to

00:11:47.900 --> 00:11:48.700
 talk about in

00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:49.180
 this new

00:11:49.180 --> 00:11:49.780
 vision of what

00:11:49.780 --> 00:11:50.320
 a church can

00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:50.900
 look like

00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:52.639
 involves nuanced

00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.000
 understandings.

00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:56.120
 So just to

00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:56.600
 start out with,

00:11:56.620 --> 00:11:56.860
 there are a

00:11:56.860 --> 00:11:57.259
 couple of

00:11:57.259 --> 00:11:57.879
 Bible verses

00:11:57.879 --> 00:11:58.960
 that I wanted

00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.540
 to share.

00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:01.080
 So the first

00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:01.320
 one is

00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:02.800
 Ephesians 4.29.

00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.019
 Do not let

00:12:04.019 --> 00:12:04.839
 any unwholesome

00:12:04.839 --> 00:12:05.679
 talk come out

00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:06.279
 of your mouths,

00:12:06.439 --> 00:12:07.379
 but only what

00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:08.179
 is helpful for

00:12:08.179 --> 00:12:08.919
 building others

00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:10.120
 up according to

00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:10.699
 their needs,

00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:11.519
 that it may

00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:12.319
 benefit those

00:12:12.319 --> 00:12:12.879
 who listen.

00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:13.839
 And I think

00:12:13.839 --> 00:12:14.379
 sometimes when we

00:12:14.379 --> 00:12:14.759
 think about

00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:15.459
 speech that's

00:12:15.459 --> 00:12:15.859
 unwholesome,

00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:16.479
 we might think

00:12:16.479 --> 00:12:17.079
 about curse

00:12:17.079 --> 00:12:17.659
 words, or we

00:12:17.659 --> 00:12:18.039
 might think

00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:18.539
 about things

00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:18.879
 that are,

00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:19.479
 you know,

00:12:20.019 --> 00:12:20.719
 lies, or,

00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:21.039
 you know,

00:12:21.079 --> 00:12:21.479
 things that are

00:12:21.479 --> 00:12:21.779
 quote-unquote

00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:22.279
 unholy.

00:12:22.359 --> 00:12:22.759
 But I like

00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.479
 the juxtaposition

00:12:24.479 --> 00:12:25.759
 of unwholesome

00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:26.500
 versus, you

00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:27.199
 know, is this

00:12:27.199 --> 00:12:28.620
 helpful to those

00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:29.779
 who are hearing

00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:30.219
 it, right?

00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:30.859
 And so words

00:12:30.859 --> 00:12:31.519
 that may be

00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:32.919
 technically true

00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:34.039
 may not actually

00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:34.860
 benefit the person

00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:35.539
 who's listening.

00:12:36.439 --> 00:12:37.199
 And so just

00:12:37.199 --> 00:12:37.779
 thinking about

00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:38.559
 ways that

00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:40.139
 our words

00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:41.919
 can be

00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:43.340
 well-received.

00:12:43.819 --> 00:12:44.639
 And the other

00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:45.159
 is just from

00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:46.199
 Proverbs 12.18.

00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:46.819
 There is one

00:12:46.819 --> 00:12:47.360
 whose rash

00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.000
 words are like

00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:48.980
 sword thrusts,

00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:49.819
 but the tongue

00:12:49.819 --> 00:12:50.439
 of the wise

00:12:50.439 --> 00:12:51.179
 brings healing.

00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:52.079
 So again,

00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:53.059
 this emphasis

00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:53.819
 on how speech

00:12:53.819 --> 00:12:54.519
 can be used

00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:55.480
 for healing.

00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:57.419
 So the first

00:12:57.419 --> 00:12:58.120
 part of what

00:12:58.120 --> 00:12:58.779
 are nuanced

00:12:58.779 --> 00:12:59.539
 understandings

00:12:59.539 --> 00:13:00.019
 of mental

00:13:00.019 --> 00:13:00.579
 illness?

00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:02.759
 Yeah, so

00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:04.019
 this is kind

00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:04.819
 of a review

00:13:04.819 --> 00:13:06.100
 of week one

00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:06.939
 for those

00:13:06.939 --> 00:13:07.340
 of you who

00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:07.699
 are here.

00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:08.120
 So we just

00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:08.559
 want to keep

00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:09.139
 in mind,

00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:10.620
 importantly,

00:13:10.899 --> 00:13:11.620
 we don't

00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:12.480
 know what

00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:13.079
 is causing

00:13:13.079 --> 00:13:14.019
 another person's

00:13:14.019 --> 00:13:14.899
 mental illness.

00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:16.340
 To even have

00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:17.240
 any idea

00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:18.120
 of what that

00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:18.539
 might be would

00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:19.019
 have to be

00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:19.659
 in a really,

00:13:19.819 --> 00:13:20.279
 really close

00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:20.819
 relationship

00:13:20.819 --> 00:13:21.419
 with them,

00:13:21.620 --> 00:13:22.740
 probably over

00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:23.439
 a long period

00:13:23.439 --> 00:13:24.019
 of time.

00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:24.819
 So we just

00:13:24.819 --> 00:13:25.120
 want to be

00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:25.840
 really careful

00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.419
 about jumping

00:13:26.419 --> 00:13:27.299
 to conclusions,

00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:27.919
 especially

00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:29.960
 around making

00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:30.820
 attributions

00:13:30.820 --> 00:13:31.500
 of personal

00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.259
 sin or that

00:13:32.259 --> 00:13:32.960
 type of thing.

00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:33.759
 So if I meet

00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:34.560
 Stephanie and

00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:35.620
 Stephanie shares,

00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:36.259
 like maybe we've

00:13:36.259 --> 00:13:36.740
 known each other

00:13:36.740 --> 00:13:37.300
 a few weeks

00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:37.840
 at Trinity,

00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:38.720
 and Stephanie

00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:39.240
 shares like,

00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:39.900
 oh, I have

00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:40.460
 anxiety,

00:13:41.019 --> 00:13:42.120
 my first response

00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:43.300
 shouldn't,

00:13:43.420 --> 00:13:44.360
 ideally wouldn't

00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:44.940
 be, oh,

00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:46.560
 here's where,

00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:47.240
 you know,

00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:47.780
 maybe you're

00:13:47.780 --> 00:13:48.620
 failing spiritually

00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:49.080
 and that's why

00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:49.400
 you're having

00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:50.379
 anxiety, right?

00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:51.720
 Like we want

00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:52.340
 to keep in mind

00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:53.180
 that probably

00:13:53.180 --> 00:13:53.960
 if Stephanie's

00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:54.240
 dealing with

00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:54.620
 anxiety,

00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:55.400
 the factors

00:13:55.400 --> 00:13:55.840
 that are

00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:56.320
 contributing

00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:56.780
 to that are

00:13:56.780 --> 00:13:57.680
 very complex

00:13:57.680 --> 00:13:59.000
 and many

00:13:59.000 --> 00:13:59.580
 of them

00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:00.640
 might not

00:14:00.640 --> 00:14:01.160
 have to do

00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:01.500
 with her

00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:02.260
 own choices

00:14:02.260 --> 00:14:04.060
 and really

00:14:04.060 --> 00:14:04.720
 kind of only

00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:05.280
 in being in

00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:05.640
 a relationship

00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:06.160
 with somebody

00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:06.980
 over a long

00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:08.020
 period of time

00:14:08.020 --> 00:14:08.740
 and walking

00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:09.080
 with them

00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:09.800
 very closely

00:14:09.800 --> 00:14:10.460
 can we

00:14:10.460 --> 00:14:11.760
 maybe observe

00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:12.440
 or learn more

00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:13.080
 about maybe

00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:13.460
 what some

00:14:13.460 --> 00:14:14.440
 causes might be.

00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:15.320
 But honestly,

00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:16.720
 causes of mental

00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.500
 illness can be

00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:18.440
 somewhat of a

00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:18.820
 mystery,

00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:19.920
 even to

00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:20.900
 mental health

00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:21.660
 professionals or

00:14:21.660 --> 00:14:22.100
 to those who

00:14:22.100 --> 00:14:22.600
 are struggling

00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:23.540
 with mental

00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:23.940
 illness.

00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:25.540
 So just

00:14:25.540 --> 00:14:26.200
 keeping in

00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:26.520
 mind that

00:14:26.520 --> 00:14:27.460
 humility that

00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:28.520
 the things

00:14:28.520 --> 00:14:28.840
 that cause

00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:29.380
 mental illness

00:14:29.380 --> 00:14:30.980
 are multi-causal

00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:31.620
 and also

00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:32.780
 multi-maintained

00:14:32.780 --> 00:14:33.120
 as we've

00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:33.500
 talked about.

00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:34.140
 That doesn't

00:14:34.140 --> 00:14:34.560
 mean we have

00:14:34.560 --> 00:14:35.040
 nothing to

00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:35.880
 contribute or

00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:36.900
 no ideas or

00:14:36.900 --> 00:14:38.080
 no important

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:38.880
 encouragement to

00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:39.460
 offer, but it

00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:40.000
 does just

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.180
 important to have

00:14:41.180 --> 00:14:41.800
 a kind of a

00:14:41.800 --> 00:14:42.200
 stance of

00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:42.640
 humility.

00:14:43.560 --> 00:14:43.900
 And I think

00:14:43.900 --> 00:14:44.360
 nuanced

00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:45.280
 understandings is

00:14:45.280 --> 00:14:46.440
 basically at

00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:46.860
 its core,

00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:47.400
 like do we

00:14:47.400 --> 00:14:48.780
 understand what

00:14:48.780 --> 00:14:49.360
 this person is

00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:49.900
 going through?

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:50.600
 Do we understand

00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.000
 their lived

00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:51.940
 experience and

00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:52.440
 have we

00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:53.500
 communicated that

00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:53.960
 to them,

00:14:54.019 --> 00:14:55.080
 that we are

00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:55.679
 understanding

00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:56.039
 them?

00:14:58.179 --> 00:14:59.100
 And then in

00:14:59.100 --> 00:14:59.919
 terms of what

00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:00.419
 gets in the

00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:00.779
 way of

00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:01.259
 nuanced

00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:02.340
 understandings?

00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:05.259
 Yeah, so

00:15:05.259 --> 00:15:08.399
 oftentimes this

00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.580
 idea, like it

00:15:09.580 --> 00:15:09.899
 is just

00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:10.639
 cognitively

00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:12.019
 easier to

00:15:12.019 --> 00:15:12.440
 kind of

00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:13.259
 categorize

00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:14.019
 things and

00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:14.960
 to use sort

00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:15.299
 of quick

00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:16.480
 heuristics to

00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.240
 inform our

00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:17.919
 understandings.

00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:18.720
 It's really

00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.740
 hard and

00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:20.419
 messy to sit

00:15:20.419 --> 00:15:21.200
 with complexity

00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:21.820
 or a sense

00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:22.279
 of like I

00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:22.740
 don't really

00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:23.659
 know, right?

00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.820
 Like so if

00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:25.740
 we have a

00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:26.419
 friend who's

00:15:26.419 --> 00:15:27.279
 struggling with

00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:29.180
 really severe

00:15:29.180 --> 00:15:29.779
 depression for

00:15:29.779 --> 00:15:31.100
 instance and

00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:31.500
 we want to

00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:32.200
 help and we

00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:32.680
 want to help

00:15:32.680 --> 00:15:33.039
 them get

00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:33.740
 better and we

00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:34.840
 want there to

00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:35.399
 be a solution,

00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:36.379
 it is just

00:15:36.379 --> 00:15:37.279
 cognitively easier

00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:37.700
 to be like,

00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:38.799
 oh it must be

00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:39.320
 because you're

00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:39.840
 not reading your

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:40.460
 Bible enough,

00:15:40.659 --> 00:15:40.919
 right?

00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:41.320
 Like that's

00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:42.159
 just an easier

00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:43.419
 thing cognitively

00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:44.139
 to jump to

00:15:44.139 --> 00:15:45.759
 and it can

00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:46.279
 kind of save

00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:46.919
 us time,

00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:47.399
 right?

00:15:47.460 --> 00:15:48.000
 It feels like

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:48.440
 it saves us

00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:48.899
 time of like

00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:49.740
 sitting in this

00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:50.639
 messiness and

00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:51.139
 something that we

00:15:51.139 --> 00:15:51.659
 don't know how

00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:52.159
 to deal with

00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:53.039
 or understand.

00:15:56.179 --> 00:15:57.519
 Oh I guess

00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.299
 one more

00:15:59.299 --> 00:16:00.620
 point too

00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:01.799
 and this will

00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:02.219
 come up a

00:16:02.219 --> 00:16:02.659
 little bit later

00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:03.019
 as we talk

00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:03.620
 about vulnerability.

00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:04.939
 I do think

00:16:04.939 --> 00:16:05.500
 there's something

00:16:05.500 --> 00:16:08.399
 about we

00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.299
 like we don't

00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:09.899
 want to suffer

00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:10.360
 with mental

00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:10.980
 illness, right?

00:16:11.079 --> 00:16:11.819
 Like I think

00:16:11.819 --> 00:16:12.719
 watching somebody

00:16:12.719 --> 00:16:13.600
 really struggle

00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:14.779
 mind, body,

00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:15.600
 and soul in a

00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:16.039
 way they can't

00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:16.879
 control can be

00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:18.299
 scary and I

00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:19.620
 think as humans

00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:20.399
 we oftentimes

00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:21.080
 want to

00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:21.779
 categorize,

00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:22.860
 that is them

00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:23.139
 and their

00:16:23.139 --> 00:16:24.360
 struggle and

00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.639
 we are somehow

00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:26.820
 exempt from that

00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:28.179
 or we're not

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:28.759
 like them,

00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.279
 we're kind of

00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:29.679
 different,

00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:30.340
 we're not going

00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:30.799
 to struggle in

00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:31.340
 the same ways.

00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:32.139
 So I think

00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:32.919
 oftentimes we

00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:34.100
 might not use

00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:34.379
 nuanced

00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:35.080
 understandings

00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:35.480
 because it's

00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:36.080
 easier to

00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.419
 think, oh,

00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:38.460
 if it's

00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:39.200
 complex and

00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:40.179
 mysterious and

00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:40.919
 we're not sure

00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:41.259
 why they're

00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:41.620
 struggling,

00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:42.679
 then I

00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:43.200
 actually might

00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:43.680
 be vulnerable

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.220
 to struggle

00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:44.720
 too.

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:45.620
 I think that's

00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:46.560
 scary to admit

00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:48.459
 that we're

00:16:48.459 --> 00:16:49.259
 not different,

00:16:49.419 --> 00:16:49.619
 that we're

00:16:49.619 --> 00:16:50.219
 not exempt,

00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:50.679
 and so I

00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:51.279
 think sometimes

00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:52.039
 this fear

00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:52.559
 can kind of

00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:53.819
 keep us at

00:16:53.819 --> 00:16:54.319
 arm's length

00:16:54.319 --> 00:16:54.859
 from people

00:16:54.859 --> 00:16:55.239
 and kind of

00:16:55.239 --> 00:16:56.279
 like, oh,

00:16:56.339 --> 00:16:56.899
 they're not

00:16:56.899 --> 00:16:57.619
 very holy,

00:16:57.879 --> 00:16:58.079
 right?

00:16:58.159 --> 00:16:58.599
 Or they

00:16:58.599 --> 00:16:59.079
 kind of need

00:16:59.079 --> 00:16:59.379
 to pray

00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:00.299
 more and

00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:01.839
 we are doing

00:17:01.839 --> 00:17:02.139
 better with

00:17:02.139 --> 00:17:02.519
 our spiritual

00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:02.759
 life,

00:17:02.859 --> 00:17:03.479
 therefore we're

00:17:03.479 --> 00:17:04.819
 not going to

00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:05.179
 struggle in

00:17:05.179 --> 00:17:05.759
 the same ways.

00:17:05.879 --> 00:17:06.159
 So I think

00:17:06.159 --> 00:17:06.639
 that can kind

00:17:06.639 --> 00:17:06.940
 of be,

00:17:07.399 --> 00:17:08.399
 our fear can

00:17:08.399 --> 00:17:09.419
 keep us from

00:17:09.419 --> 00:17:09.659
 nuanced

00:17:09.659 --> 00:17:10.240
 understandings

00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:10.559
 too.

00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:13.000
 A third thing

00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:13.559
 we came up

00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:14.139
 with in terms

00:17:14.139 --> 00:17:14.679
 of what gets

00:17:14.679 --> 00:17:15.220
 in the way of

00:17:15.220 --> 00:17:15.619
 nuanced

00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:16.539
 understandings

00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:17.319
 included

00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:18.059
 busyness,

00:17:18.139 --> 00:17:18.439
 and I mean

00:17:18.439 --> 00:17:18.919
 we could talk

00:17:18.919 --> 00:17:19.439
 probably like

00:17:19.439 --> 00:17:20.039
 for an hour

00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:20.500
 on this,

00:17:20.659 --> 00:17:21.399
 but you know

00:17:21.399 --> 00:17:21.939
 just as a

00:17:21.939 --> 00:17:22.419
 culture,

00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:22.779
 right,

00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:23.379
 that we are

00:17:23.379 --> 00:17:24.199
 very task

00:17:24.199 --> 00:17:24.659
 oriented,

00:17:24.939 --> 00:17:25.679
 we're quantifying

00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:26.159
 things,

00:17:26.259 --> 00:17:26.519
 we're into

00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:27.919
 getting things

00:17:27.919 --> 00:17:28.239
 done,

00:17:28.339 --> 00:17:28.899
 and sometimes

00:17:28.899 --> 00:17:29.679
 the process

00:17:29.679 --> 00:17:30.319
 can get a

00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:30.679
 little bit

00:17:30.679 --> 00:17:31.419
 lost in that,

00:17:31.879 --> 00:17:32.339
 and sometimes

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:32.619
 you know

00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:33.019
 we're just,

00:17:33.419 --> 00:17:34.099
 we're busy,

00:17:34.479 --> 00:17:34.699
 we're,

00:17:34.939 --> 00:17:35.099
 you know,

00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:35.799
 it's hard to,

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:36.739
 it takes time

00:17:36.739 --> 00:17:37.379
 to walk with

00:17:37.379 --> 00:17:37.919
 someone who has

00:17:37.919 --> 00:17:38.500
 mental illness,

00:17:38.619 --> 00:17:40.639
 and so there

00:17:40.639 --> 00:17:41.619
 really has to be

00:17:41.619 --> 00:17:42.000
 kind of an

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.979
 intentionality

00:17:42.979 --> 00:17:43.799
 around it,

00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:44.399
 because I think

00:17:44.399 --> 00:17:45.179
 by default our

00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:45.900
 lives can get

00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:46.560
 really crowded,

00:17:47.620 --> 00:17:48.820
 and then the

00:17:48.820 --> 00:17:49.519
 last one that

00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:50.039
 we came up

00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:51.380
 with was that

00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:52.000
 it's hard to

00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.019
 be empathetic

00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:53.860
 if we ourselves

00:17:53.860 --> 00:17:54.720
 haven't done

00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:55.759
 our own work,

00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:56.340
 and so you

00:17:56.340 --> 00:17:56.900
 know if somebody

00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:58.160
 is really

00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:58.539
 struggling,

00:17:58.740 --> 00:17:59.820
 and we minimize

00:17:59.820 --> 00:18:00.560
 it, we say oh

00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:01.019
 well it's not

00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:01.539
 that bad,

00:18:01.600 --> 00:18:01.740
 right,

00:18:01.820 --> 00:18:02.340
 like the chances

00:18:02.340 --> 00:18:02.740
 are good,

00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:03.340
 like that's

00:18:03.340 --> 00:18:03.720
 probably how

00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:04.120
 we're dealing

00:18:04.120 --> 00:18:04.720
 with ourselves

00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:05.140
 too,

00:18:05.320 --> 00:18:06.240
 that we've

00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:06.560
 kind of been

00:18:06.560 --> 00:18:07.680
 like spiritually

00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:09.039
 bypassing some

00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:09.500
 of our own

00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:09.880
 emotions,

00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:11.060
 and I think

00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:11.440
 it's important

00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.060
 just to realize

00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:12.500
 that we can

00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:13.139
 only offer

00:18:13.139 --> 00:18:13.740
 to people

00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:15.919
 what we've

00:18:15.919 --> 00:18:16.339
 been given,

00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:16.799
 what we've

00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:17.359
 been able to

00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:18.299
 work through

00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:18.740
 with the grace

00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:19.079
 of God

00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:19.740
 on ourselves,

00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:20.379
 and so we

00:18:20.379 --> 00:18:21.119
 can't really

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:21.759
 expect ourselves

00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:22.559
 to be empathetic

00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:22.960
 towards other

00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:23.619
 people's struggles

00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:24.799
 if we haven't

00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:25.399
 been able to

00:18:25.399 --> 00:18:26.000
 receive that

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:26.659
 sort of love

00:18:26.659 --> 00:18:27.460
 from other

00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:28.059
 people and

00:18:28.059 --> 00:18:28.399
 from the

00:18:28.399 --> 00:18:28.639
 Lord.

00:18:32.740 --> 00:18:33.500
 All right,

00:18:33.619 --> 00:18:34.980
 so, and

00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:35.319
 then we'll

00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:36.200
 have time for

00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:36.879
 discussion here

00:18:36.879 --> 00:18:37.500
 in a couple

00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:38.000
 minutes, but

00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.700
 what promotes

00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:40.159
 nuanced

00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:40.820
 understandings,

00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:41.259
 like it's

00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:41.759
 hard, it's

00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:42.420
 really messy,

00:18:42.600 --> 00:18:43.259
 somebody comes

00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:43.800
 to you with

00:18:43.800 --> 00:18:44.940
 psychosis or

00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:45.700
 anxiety,

00:18:45.860 --> 00:18:46.360
 depression,

00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:49.060
 PTSD, they're

00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:50.000
 really hurting,

00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:50.580
 you don't know

00:18:50.580 --> 00:18:51.420
 what to do,

00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:52.120
 right, like what

00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:52.600
 are we supposed

00:18:52.600 --> 00:18:53.560
 to do, like how

00:18:53.560 --> 00:18:54.640
 can we get to

00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:55.100
 these nuanced

00:18:55.100 --> 00:18:55.700
 understandings,

00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:57.180
 so we think

00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:57.920
 really the best

00:18:57.920 --> 00:18:58.380
 thing is just

00:18:58.380 --> 00:18:59.519
 to ask questions

00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:00.440
 and to be

00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:01.480
 curious and to

00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:02.360
 ask a lot

00:19:02.360 --> 00:19:03.200
 more questions

00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.580
 than giving

00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:06.480
 solutions or

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.820
 advice, especially

00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:08.940
 up front, and

00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:09.480
 to really, like

00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.140
 Stephanie said,

00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.400
 really try to

00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:12.680
 understand what

00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:13.400
 is the person's

00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:14.600
 experience and

00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:16.360
 really what is

00:19:16.360 --> 00:19:17.860
 it like to be

00:19:17.860 --> 00:19:18.779
 them, kind of

00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:19.340
 what is it like

00:19:19.340 --> 00:19:19.960
 to live their

00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:20.560
 life, how does

00:19:20.560 --> 00:19:21.420
 it feel for them

00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:22.519
 every day, so

00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:22.960
 these are just

00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:23.500
 some practical

00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:24.100
 ways of doing

00:19:24.100 --> 00:19:24.740
 that, these are

00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:25.700
 active listening

00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:26.440
 skills which are

00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:27.180
 typically used by

00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:28.000
 therapists but are

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.240
 also good for

00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.519
 every person for

00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:32.060
 pretty much every

00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:33.560
 situation, so

00:19:33.560 --> 00:19:34.160
 just asking

00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:34.720
 open-ended

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:35.759
 questions, not

00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.320
 like, oh, are

00:19:38.320 --> 00:19:38.940
 you having a good

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:39.740
 day, but like,

00:19:39.740 --> 00:19:40.579
 like, tell me

00:19:40.579 --> 00:19:40.980
 a leading

00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:41.880
 question, exactly,

00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:42.759
 right, but like,

00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:43.359
 tell me about your

00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:44.180
 last week, you

00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:44.599
 know, something like

00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:46.279
 that, requesting

00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:47.480
 clarification, being

00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.160
 attentive, summarizing

00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:49.980
 and paraphrasing can

00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:50.720
 feel a little awkward

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.759
 to do, but it really

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:52.980
 can help facilitate

00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:54.019
 somebody continuing

00:19:54.019 --> 00:19:55.420
 to share, so if

00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:56.259
 Stephanie tells me

00:19:56.259 --> 00:19:57.480
 like, oh, I'm

00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:58.240
 having such a hard

00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:59.519
 time, here's what's

00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:00.920
 going on, even just

00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:01.519
 saying something like,

00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:02.220
 oh, it sounds like

00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:02.839
 it's been a rough

00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:03.740
 week, you know, and

00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:04.759
 it's really interesting

00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:06.200
 how that kind of

00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:07.099
 summary or paraphrase

00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:07.799
 can open up

00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:08.299
 somebody to

00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:09.379
 continue sharing,

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.379
 reflecting feelings,

00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:12.000
 like, sounds like

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.079
 you're really sad and

00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.179
 you've been feeling

00:20:14.179 --> 00:20:16.419
 really down, and

00:20:16.419 --> 00:20:17.339
 asking probing

00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:18.679
 questions, like, oh,

00:20:18.959 --> 00:20:19.719
 and this is where I

00:20:19.719 --> 00:20:20.500
 think it's just that

00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:21.939
 entering more into the

00:20:21.939 --> 00:20:22.699
 complexity of

00:20:22.699 --> 00:20:23.679
 somebody's experience

00:20:23.679 --> 00:20:25.379
 without needing to

00:20:25.379 --> 00:20:25.919
 go in with, like,

00:20:25.919 --> 00:20:26.879
 here's the solution of

00:20:26.879 --> 00:20:27.599
 exactly what you

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:28.759
 should do, but like,

00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:30.359
 oh, have you

00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:30.879
 struggled with

00:20:30.879 --> 00:20:31.699
 depression for a

00:20:31.699 --> 00:20:33.139
 long time, or when

00:20:33.139 --> 00:20:34.219
 did that start, or,

00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:34.919
 you know, just trying

00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:36.000
 to find out more

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.400
 about the shape

00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:39.980
 and the, yeah, the

00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:40.800
 feeling of their

00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:41.860
 experience is really

00:20:41.860 --> 00:20:42.259
 helpful.

00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.180
 Yeah, I would say,

00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:44.720
 like, almost, like,

00:20:44.740 --> 00:20:45.560
 when in doubt, just

00:20:45.560 --> 00:20:46.539
 ask a question, like,

00:20:46.580 --> 00:20:47.120
 if you're not sure

00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:48.300
 what to say, it may,

00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:49.500
 it may be because

00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:50.340
 there isn't anything

00:20:50.340 --> 00:20:51.200
 to say yet, right,

00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:52.120
 that we haven't fully

00:20:52.120 --> 00:20:53.460
 understood what

00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.340
 they're going through,

00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:56.200
 and I think it's

00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:57.480
 interesting when we,

00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:58.200
 when we look in the

00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.080
 Bible, right, that

00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:00.740
 God asks questions

00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:01.920
 when Adam and Eve

00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.279
 have sinned, not that

00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:04.120
 mental illness is a

00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:04.979
 sin, but he asks,

00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:05.799
 you know, where are

00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:06.479
 you, right, and

00:21:06.479 --> 00:21:08.000
 that's a question, not

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.719
 just of where are you

00:21:08.719 --> 00:21:10.439
 in location, but just

00:21:10.439 --> 00:21:10.939
 where are you

00:21:10.939 --> 00:21:12.179
 relationally to me,

00:21:12.719 --> 00:21:13.879
 and what, you know,

00:21:13.919 --> 00:21:14.699
 what have you done,

00:21:15.199 --> 00:21:16.279
 as well as, you know,

00:21:16.299 --> 00:21:17.459
 when Jesus heals

00:21:17.459 --> 00:21:19.459
 people, there, it's,

00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:20.299
 or he's interacting

00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:21.639
 with his disciples,

00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:23.779
 right, he's asking,

00:21:23.939 --> 00:21:24.739
 what do you want,

00:21:24.859 --> 00:21:25.739
 what are you seeking,

00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:26.719
 do you want to be

00:21:26.719 --> 00:21:27.719
 healed, and then

00:21:27.719 --> 00:21:28.459
 asking his disciples,

00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:29.019
 do you want to go

00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:30.419
 away as well, right,

00:21:30.419 --> 00:21:30.879
 and so I think

00:21:30.879 --> 00:21:31.299
 there's something

00:21:31.299 --> 00:21:31.839
 about asking

00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.439
 questions that puts

00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.420
 the, you know,

00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:35.960
 gives the other

00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:36.779
 person agency

00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:38.200
 versus trying to

00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:38.820
 say, oh, you know,

00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:40.200
 well, you should

00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.039
 eat better and

00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:41.920
 exercise better, and

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.440
 then your depression

00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:43.720
 will get better,

00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:45.240
 but more, you know,

00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:46.140
 well, what helps or

00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:47.180
 what doesn't help is

00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:47.740
 what I'm saying

00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:48.799
 helpful or not,

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:49.900
 right, and that can

00:21:49.900 --> 00:21:50.420
 feel kind of

00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:50.940
 threatening because

00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:51.820
 sometimes people might

00:21:51.820 --> 00:21:52.600
 say, like, no,

00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:53.340
 that's not helpful

00:21:53.340 --> 00:21:54.980
 at all, right, you

00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:56.340
 know, and, but that's

00:21:56.340 --> 00:21:58.059
 the choice, like, God

00:21:58.059 --> 00:21:59.120
 gives and Jesus gives

00:21:59.120 --> 00:21:59.740
 when he interacts

00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:01.360
 with people, he

00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:01.900
 doesn't just, like,

00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:02.299
 heal them

00:22:02.299 --> 00:22:03.000
 automatically, he

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:03.720
 says, do you want

00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:04.440
 to be healed, right,

00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.200
 what is the choice

00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.680
 here, and so, you

00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:07.399
 know, if that's true

00:22:07.399 --> 00:22:08.480
 for God and Jesus,

00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:10.759
 like, how much more

00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.279
 is that, does that

00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:12.919
 need to be true for

00:22:12.919 --> 00:22:13.740
 us with our limited

00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.079
 understandings of

00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:15.460
 humans?

00:22:15.919 --> 00:22:17.139
 And I'd say it's not

00:22:17.139 --> 00:22:18.700
 that there's no room

00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:19.919
 for, of course, godly

00:22:19.919 --> 00:22:20.579
 counsel and

00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:21.299
 encouragement and

00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:21.700
 that kind of thing,

00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:22.779
 there is absolutely a

00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:24.079
 place for that, but I

00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:25.119
 think sometimes if we

00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:26.000
 are uncomfortable with

00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:26.940
 someone's experience,

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.119
 the proportion of our

00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:30.019
 counsel to our

00:22:30.019 --> 00:22:31.200
 question asking can be,

00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.380
 like, 90 to 10,

00:22:32.779 --> 00:22:33.960
 whereas, like, especially

00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:34.880
 if we are not very

00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:36.220
 familiar with a person's

00:22:36.220 --> 00:22:37.980
 situation, probably,

00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.059
 like, 90% questions,

00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:41.940
 10% counsel would

00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:42.840
 probably be better.

00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:44.140
 So just to kind of,

00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:46.360
 like, be aware of the

00:22:46.360 --> 00:22:47.600
 ways in which if we are

00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:48.860
 unsure what to do or

00:22:48.860 --> 00:22:50.860
 say or feel scared or

00:22:50.860 --> 00:22:52.480
 uncomfortable, we tend to

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.960
 offer counsel to kind of

00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:55.740
 distance ourselves versus

00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:57.900
 asking questions to enter

00:22:57.900 --> 00:22:59.539
 in and then only once we've

00:22:59.539 --> 00:23:00.460
 really entered in and

00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:01.220
 tried our best to

00:23:01.220 --> 00:23:02.960
 understand offering and

00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.139
 encouragement or a piece

00:23:04.139 --> 00:23:04.659
 of counsel.

00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:06.720
 And we'll get more in a

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.559
 little bit to kind of what

00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:08.859
 the, what the church can

00:23:08.859 --> 00:23:09.039
 do.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:12.500
 A couple quotes here that

00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:13.700
 Stephanie had found that

00:23:13.700 --> 00:23:14.220
 was really.

00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:15.339
 Yeah.

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:16.539
 So I really like this quote

00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.399
 from Bonhoeffer, which is

00:23:19.399 --> 00:23:20.879
 in his book about community,

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:21.619
 life together.

00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:23.059
 So there is a, and this

00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:24.539
 just kind of says again,

00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:26.319
 like, you know, what is

00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:27.139
 active listening, right?

00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:29.140
 Um, so there is a kind of

00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:30.660
 listening with half an ear

00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:32.240
 that presumes already to

00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:33.360
 know what the other person

00:23:33.360 --> 00:23:34.000
 has to say.

00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:35.460
 It is an impatient,

00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:36.840
 inattentive listening that

00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:38.720
 despises the brother and is

00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.080
 only waiting for a chance to

00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:41.660
 speak and thus get rid of

00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:42.400
 the other person.

00:23:43.080 --> 00:23:43.840
 Christians have forgotten

00:23:43.840 --> 00:23:44.840
 that the ministry of

00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:46.240
 listening has been committed

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.280
 to them by him who his is

00:23:48.280 --> 00:23:50.120
 himself, the great listener

00:23:50.120 --> 00:23:51.480
 and whose work they should

00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:51.840
 share.

00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:53.740
 We should listen with the

00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:55.020
 ears of God that we may

00:23:55.020 --> 00:23:56.100
 speak the word of God.

00:23:57.140 --> 00:24:00.740
 And then one more here.

00:24:00.820 --> 00:24:02.040
 I really like this quote

00:24:02.040 --> 00:24:03.340
 Stephanie found from

00:24:03.340 --> 00:24:04.600
 Charles Spurgeon.

00:24:06.080 --> 00:24:08.300
 So, ah, says one, I used

00:24:08.300 --> 00:24:09.200
 to laugh at Mrs.

00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:10.140
 So-and-so for being

00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:10.700
 nervous.

00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:12.220
 Now that I feel the

00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:14.220
 torture myself, I am sorry

00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:15.500
 that I was ever hard on

00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:15.840
 her.

00:24:16.600 --> 00:24:17.780
 Ah, says another, I used

00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:18.940
 to think of such and such

00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:20.420
 a person that he must be a

00:24:20.420 --> 00:24:21.740
 fool to always be in so

00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:23.160
 gloomy a state of mind.

00:24:23.580 --> 00:24:25.080
 But now I cannot help

00:24:25.080 --> 00:24:26.300
 sinking into the same

00:24:26.299 --> 00:24:27.500
 desponding frames.

00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:29.700
 And oh, I would to God

00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:30.740
 that I had been more kind

00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:31.240
 to him.

00:24:31.779 --> 00:24:33.399
 Yes, we should feel more

00:24:33.399 --> 00:24:34.859
 for the prisoner if we knew

00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:36.119
 more about his prison.

00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:38.919
 So I think that's, I don't

00:24:38.919 --> 00:24:39.759
 know if any of you have

00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:40.440
 ever been through the

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.079
 experience where you kind

00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:43.899
 of judge someone for a

00:24:43.899 --> 00:24:44.519
 simple example.

00:24:44.879 --> 00:24:46.480
 Before I had a baby, when

00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:48.000
 people would be really,

00:24:48.139 --> 00:24:49.099
 really structured and

00:24:49.099 --> 00:24:50.180
 scheduled about like, oh,

00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:51.599
 we need to get baby home

00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.940
 on time to take a nap and

00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:53.700
 all these kinds of things.

00:24:53.700 --> 00:24:55.059
 I was like, a little

00:24:55.059 --> 00:24:56.240
 overkill, right?

00:24:56.620 --> 00:24:59.380
 And then after having a

00:24:59.380 --> 00:25:01.340
 baby, case in point, I'm

00:25:01.340 --> 00:25:02.500
 like, nap time.

00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.360
 She's got to be home.

00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:04.960
 You know, so like, if we

00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:05.779
 haven't really been through

00:25:05.779 --> 00:25:06.920
 something, it can be hard

00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:08.900
 to understand why somebody

00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:10.059
 is responding the way they

00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:10.400
 are.

00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:11.720
 And then sometimes if we,

00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:13.120
 once we go through that,

00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:13.819
 there's a moment of

00:25:13.819 --> 00:25:15.900
 realization of like, oh,

00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:18.160
 really that makes a lot

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:18.759
 more sense.

00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:19.400
 Right.

00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:20.480
 Now that we're going

00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:20.879
 through this.

00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:23.359
 So just like to take some

00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:24.420
 time for comments,

00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.180
 questions about this idea

00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:28.920
 of nuanced understandings

00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:30.539
 and how active listening

00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:31.720
 can promote nuanced

00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:32.240
 understanding.

00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.359
 So yeah, any, any areas

00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.059
 that people want to share

00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:38.480
 experiences or ask any

00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:39.759
 questions about what we

00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:40.640
 talked about so far?

00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:48.680
 I just want to share, I

00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:50.060
 mean, mentally, this is

00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:52.520
 a lot of that, especially

00:25:52.520 --> 00:25:53.420
 post-COVID.

00:25:54.020 --> 00:25:56.480
 I mean, it's very

00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:56.880
 critical.

00:25:57.280 --> 00:25:58.280
 There's several things that

00:25:58.280 --> 00:26:01.300
 I think as a church group,

00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:03.540
 we can do quite a bit if

00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:04.940
 we kind of like, you know,

00:26:05.060 --> 00:26:06.259
 this is actually our first

00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:08.480
 step to talk about it.

00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:12.220
 But in terms of, we can do

00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:14.099
 quite a lot more as a

00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:14.640
 church group.

00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:16.500
 I think in terms of like

00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:17.720
 listening is very important,

00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:18.900
 I think, but this is only

00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:19.319
 once.

00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:21.400
 It's tough to listen when

00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:24.620
 we're in a church hall and

00:26:24.620 --> 00:26:26.579
 we need to go around.

00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:31.339
 And to listen to somebody,

00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:32.920
 you need to listen.

00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.779
 And it's not just five

00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:36.140
 minutes.

00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:37.580
 It's like sometimes, you

00:26:37.580 --> 00:26:40.259
 know, 15 minutes over a

00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:41.140
 month period.

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.280
 And I think that's, and

00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:44.780
 that's tough.

00:26:45.340 --> 00:26:47.200
 So, fellowshiping, I think

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:48.140
 is probably one of the

00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:49.280
 things that we can do as

00:26:49.280 --> 00:26:50.680
 a group to help each other

00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.700
 out, to talk, to listen,

00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:55.680
 and to do things together.

00:26:55.820 --> 00:26:56.560
 But the other thing, I

00:26:56.560 --> 00:26:57.740
 mean, this is just a

00:26:57.740 --> 00:26:58.320
 suggestion.

00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:00.920
 And I don't know how the

00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:02.080
 church leadership feels.

00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:03.600
 Like maybe just having, you

00:27:03.600 --> 00:27:04.840
 know, support groups, you

00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:06.059
 know, a regular support

00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:09.919
 groups or, you know, for

00:27:09.919 --> 00:27:10.899
 general stuff.

00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:12.099
 You know, people get

00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:14.720
 together and just talk.

00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:15.720
 And listen.

00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:16.699
 Talk and listen.

00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:17.519
 Yeah.

00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.480
 And maybe if you have

00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:21.839
 somebody who's maybe a

00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.579
 leader who, you know,

00:27:23.639 --> 00:27:26.740
 kind of like give spiritual

00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:28.599
 guidance and at the same

00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.119
 time, you know, give also

00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.019
 some, you know, non-spiritual,

00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:34.900
 which is that I think that,

00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:39.440
 I think, you know, God can do

00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.920
 a lot, but we'll be whole

00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:44.319
 when we're in heaven.

00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.319
 But we're not whole

00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:46.639
 here.

00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.019
 And sometimes we need, you

00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:50.299
 know, some other people to

00:27:50.299 --> 00:27:51.740
 kind of come in and kind of

00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:52.720
 make things better.

00:27:53.059 --> 00:27:53.599
 Mm-hmm.

00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:53.759
 Mm-hmm.

00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:55.039
 Yeah.

00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:55.799
 Yeah.

00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.119
 I want to look that up.

00:27:58.259 --> 00:27:59.460
 Not short version by

00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:00.460
 Dietrich von Hofer.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:01.480
 Okay.

00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:02.519
 Oh.

00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:03.439
 Yeah.

00:28:03.659 --> 00:28:04.599
 This is from Life

00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:06.720
 Together, which is Life

00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.179
 Together.

00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:08.359
 Is that the name of the

00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:08.500
 book?

00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:08.879
 Yes.

00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:09.399
 Yeah.

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.019
 It's a book on, like,

00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:12.960
 Christian community.

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:13.559
 Yeah.

00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:15.160
 Well, thanks so much for

00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:15.480
 your comment.

00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:17.039
 I think that's a great

00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.000
 point about, like, being

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:20.559
 committed to listening more

00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.140
 than just one time, right?

00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:23.420
 Like, we're probably not

00:28:23.420 --> 00:28:24.259
 going to make a ton.

00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:25.819
 It's probably not going to

00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:27.299
 be a ton of difference if

00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:29.180
 after church once, you know,

00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.180
 Josh comes to me and says,

00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:31.500
 oh, it's been a, you know,

00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:32.299
 dealing with this.

00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:33.400
 And for five minutes, I've

00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:34.340
 been listening to him and I

00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:35.079
 never follow up.

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:35.279
 Right.

00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:36.079
 That's probably not going to

00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:37.759
 be like, that might be fine,

00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:38.420
 but it's probably not going to

00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:39.140
 make a huge difference.

00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:39.920
 I mean, you make a great

00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:41.259
 point about, like, the

00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:43.039
 longevity of listening to,

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:44.420
 which is really important.

00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:45.240
 Right.

00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:46.440
 Which I think speaks to just

00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.240
 how relationships need to be

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:49.299
 structured in order to be

00:28:49.299 --> 00:28:50.480
 healing, that it requires a

00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.519
 frequency and intentionality,

00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:53.259
 and we'll talk about this

00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:56.000
 later, and then a regularity

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.799
 to it for it to be a real

00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:58.400
 relationship.

00:28:58.819 --> 00:28:58.960
 Yeah.

00:28:59.059 --> 00:28:59.259
 Yeah.

00:28:59.519 --> 00:28:59.920
 Absolutely.

00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:00.480
 Alicia.

00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:00.920
 Yeah.

00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:01.259
 Yeah.

00:29:01.339 --> 00:29:02.660
 Just to kind of go off of

00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:04.400
 that, I, so I've had

00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.539
 anxiety since I was very

00:29:05.539 --> 00:29:06.119
 young.

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.480
 And I think because I was

00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.200
 so young, there was, like,

00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:10.519
 this sense of it being, like,

00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:12.740
 this weird mystical thing,

00:29:12.860 --> 00:29:14.480
 like, how could anyone figure

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.720
 out what is going on with

00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:15.960
 this?

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:17.180
 But I think that actually

00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:19.279
 kind of helped me understand

00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:21.000
 what I wanted from, like,

00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:22.019
 the people in my life,

00:29:22.059 --> 00:29:23.120
 because I was like, you

00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:24.620
 sleep people, you can't fix

00:29:24.620 --> 00:29:25.019
 this.

00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.519
 I just need you to, like,

00:29:26.580 --> 00:29:28.420
 be here with me.

00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:31.259
 So I think, yeah, like, it

00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:32.559
 can be intimidating for us

00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:33.700
 when we see someone really

00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:35.100
 suffering, being like, I

00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:36.660
 don't know how to help them.

00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:39.080
 And even maybe, like, the

00:29:39.080 --> 00:29:40.140
 listen, I mean, like, you

00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:40.880
 don't have the questions.

00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:41.840
 I feel like all of those

00:29:41.840 --> 00:29:43.040
 things can be very

00:29:43.040 --> 00:29:43.540
 intimidating.

00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:45.440
 But, like, for me, it was

00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.340
 just, like, I just need you

00:29:46.340 --> 00:29:48.160
 to, like, show up and be

00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:48.400
 there.

00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:50.000
 It's okay if you don't know

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.100
 what to do.

00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:52.680
 Yeah.

00:29:52.840 --> 00:29:53.400
 So, yeah.

00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:54.580
 Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:55.100 --> 00:29:55.240
 Yeah.

00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:55.620
 Carolyn?

00:29:56.019 --> 00:29:56.680
 I don't know.

00:29:56.800 --> 00:29:59.019
 I think part of, half of

00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:00.460
 listening is being okay with

00:30:00.460 --> 00:30:01.740
 uncomfortable silences.

00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:02.740
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:03.140
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:04.720
 Especially in conversations

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.259
 both when I have been

00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:08.140
 really struggling with my

00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:08.980
 mental health and when

00:30:08.980 --> 00:30:10.680
 talking, like, my brain

00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:11.799
 just works slower.

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:12.400
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.680
 And finding words is just

00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:14.120
 harder.

00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:14.640
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.559
 So, even if I'm, like, in

00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:18.640
 the process of answering

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:19.660
 your question, it might

00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:20.640
 take me two or three

00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.900
 minutes to get there.

00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:23.259
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:25.100
 And I think it's something

00:30:25.100 --> 00:30:26.059
 I do when I'm, like,

00:30:26.059 --> 00:30:26.420
 listening.

00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:28.920
 It's just, like, really,

00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.559
 like, I think my initial

00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:31.460
 thing is, like, oh, I

00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:32.759
 asked the wrong question.

00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:33.240
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.920
 All I'm getting is silence.

00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:35.319
 Yeah.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.019
 And so I want to make

00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:37.480
 that better.

00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:39.740
 So I qualify it or ask

00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:41.000
 another question or I say

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.180
 something and just to,

00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:43.980
 like, sit in that silence.

00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:44.339
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:44.960
 And I think that's, like,

00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:46.819
 one of the biggest gifts

00:30:46.819 --> 00:30:48.099
 people have given me and

00:30:48.099 --> 00:30:48.819
 that we can give one

00:30:48.819 --> 00:30:50.319
 another is to sit in the

00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.180
 uncomfortableness and in

00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:53.339
 the silence and be, like,

00:30:53.859 --> 00:30:55.039
 I don't care if it left.

00:30:55.299 --> 00:30:55.740
 Mm-hmm.

00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:56.660
 I don't care if it takes

00:30:56.660 --> 00:30:58.039
 you 30 seconds or, like,

00:30:58.099 --> 00:30:59.259
 four minutes to come with

00:30:59.259 --> 00:30:59.620
 an answer.

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:01.079
 I still care enough about

00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:02.299
 what that answer is.

00:31:02.399 --> 00:31:02.859
 Mm-hmm.

00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:03.500
 So.

00:31:04.159 --> 00:31:04.519
 Yeah.

00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:05.339
 I had a friend once tell

00:31:05.339 --> 00:31:08.079
 me, like, you know, the

00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:09.359
 best thing Job's friends

00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.399
 ever did was, like, sit in

00:31:11.399 --> 00:31:12.759
 silence for seven days or

00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:13.720
 ten, forty, I don't know,

00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:14.799
 however many days it was.

00:31:14.879 --> 00:31:15.960
 And then, like, as soon as

00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:16.899
 they opened their mouths,

00:31:17.299 --> 00:31:17.980
 things went down.

00:31:18.199 --> 00:31:18.339
 Right?

00:31:19.659 --> 00:31:21.299
 But there was, like, there

00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.319
 is a ministry to just,

00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:23.659
 like, sitting with someone.

00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:24.240
 Yeah.

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:24.319
 Yeah.

00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:25.819
 And it's a great point,

00:31:25.899 --> 00:31:27.000
 Alicia, too, about, like,

00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:29.000
 just somebody being present.

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.420
 I think I've felt a similar

00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:32.779
 frustration with my OCD of,

00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:33.700
 like, well, it doesn't go

00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:34.200
 away.

00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:35.299
 Like, you know, sometimes I

00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:36.380
 think it's easier to minister

00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:37.500
 to other struggles.

00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:39.680
 Like, a physical illness,

00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:40.880
 maybe sometimes it doesn't

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.019
 go away either, but there's

00:31:42.019 --> 00:31:42.759
 something easier about,

00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:43.480
 like, somebody's dealing

00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.880
 with something, we can

00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.720
 minister to them, it gets

00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:46.140
 better.

00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:47.619
 So often mental illness

00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:48.740
 isn't really like that,

00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:49.440
 and there's going to be

00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:50.500
 ebbing and flowing of

00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:53.319
 struggling over years,

00:31:53.539 --> 00:31:53.880
 right?

00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.420
 And so, like, a willingness

00:31:55.420 --> 00:31:57.519
 to continue to check in with

00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:58.660
 our friends and be present,

00:31:58.660 --> 00:32:00.620
 like, some months might be

00:32:00.620 --> 00:32:02.160
 good, some months might be

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.240
 really bad, and that might

00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:05.040
 be always like that,

00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:05.560
 right?

00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:06.660
 Or that might be the

00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:07.880
 trajectory for a while,

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.019
 and so to be willing to

00:32:09.019 --> 00:32:11.880
 kind of be entering in over

00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.120
 the long term.

00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:14.080
 Yeah.

00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:14.540
 Tyler?

00:32:14.540 --> 00:32:14.640
 Tyler?

00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:16.740
 I'm struck by Bonhoeffer's

00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:17.759
 last, the last line,

00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:19.500
 which is with the ears of

00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:21.000
 God, that we may speak the

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:21.759
 word of God.

00:32:22.300 --> 00:32:23.600
 And I think one of the

00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:25.320
 roles that we as Christians

00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:26.480
 have with each other is

00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:28.259
 helping each other understand

00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:29.619
 our experiences in light of

00:32:29.619 --> 00:32:30.579
 God's reality.

00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:32.660
 It's not like denying the

00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:33.400
 fact that you don't have

00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:34.339
 anxiety, you're going to

00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:34.779
 ask for something.

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.000
 It's the fact that, like,

00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:38.240
 yeah, that's true, but

00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.599
 let's look at what God has

00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:40.759
 said is true about himself,

00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:42.420
 and all these temptations

00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:43.400
 in the scriptures when we're

00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:44.599
 suffering, that God's

00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.299
 forgotten us, he's punishing

00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:49.259
 us for our sins, or, you

00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:50.619
 know, the blood has run

00:32:50.619 --> 00:32:51.460
 out, and we can just

00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:52.759
 affirm that, like, no, God's

00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:53.720
 steadfast love in Jesus

00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:54.059
 forever.

00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:55.339
 And I think of the

00:32:55.339 --> 00:32:56.519
 Psalms, what a great book

00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.460
 for the suffering, struggling

00:32:58.460 --> 00:32:59.659
 Christians, just to go through

00:32:59.659 --> 00:33:01.200
 the Psalms together and see,

00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:02.799
 yeah, it's Christians that

00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.940
 suffered with this, but look

00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:05.200
 how this Christian is still

00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:06.700
 relying on God's faithfulness.

00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:08.460
 I think we just help each

00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:11.679
 other understand that this is

00:33:11.679 --> 00:33:12.879
 something that Christians have

00:33:12.879 --> 00:33:14.799
 experienced, and it's okay to

00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.639
 experience it, but let's affirm

00:33:16.639 --> 00:33:18.200
 what God has said is true in his

00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:18.480
 word.

00:33:18.899 --> 00:33:19.639
 And I think that's a

00:33:19.639 --> 00:33:21.200
 bonhoeffer, I think he's kind of

00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.200
 getting out right there, where

00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:23.180
 they speak the word about.

00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:26.279
 Yeah, and reminding, I like,

00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:28.240
 how you have, like, reminding

00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.580
 people that God is entering in

00:33:30.580 --> 00:33:32.740
 to their experience, too, and

00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:34.740
 over the long term, and is

00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:38.080
 ever-present, and isn't going to

00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:39.759
 get tired of being present, even

00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:41.860
 if you struggle with anxiety for

00:33:41.860 --> 00:33:42.700
 years, right?

00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.500
 I think that's a really powerful

00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:45.960
 truth.

00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:47.100
 Yeah.

00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:47.940
 Absolutely.

00:33:48.620 --> 00:33:48.840
 Yeah.

00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:49.840
 It reminds me, like, it's

00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:51.160
 fresh out, I'm sure I have, like,

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:56.039
 nobody cares how much you know

00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:57.500
 until they know how much you

00:33:57.500 --> 00:33:57.880
 care.

00:33:58.100 --> 00:33:58.819
 Mm-hmm.

00:33:58.819 --> 00:34:00.620
 If you want to be a witness for

00:34:00.620 --> 00:34:03.920
 God and talk about his gospel,

00:34:05.080 --> 00:34:06.180
 they need to know that you're

00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:07.299
 enough to listen to God.

00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:07.980
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:09.039
 Yeah.

00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:11.119
 That's probably the first step.

00:34:11.220 --> 00:34:11.500
 Right.

00:34:11.720 --> 00:34:13.659
 Is listening and learning and

00:34:13.659 --> 00:34:14.320
 understanding.

00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:14.960
 Yeah.

00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.139
 Yeah.

00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:15.480
 Yeah.

00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:16.039
 Yeah.

00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:16.880
 Yeah.

00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:17.720
 So, again, with, like, the

00:34:17.720 --> 00:34:19.260
 relationship piece, people can't

00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:20.760
 receive what it, like, what you

00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:22.020
 have to say until they know that

00:34:22.020 --> 00:34:23.260
 they can trust you.

00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:23.700
 Yeah.

00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:24.100
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:24.100 --> 00:34:24.200
 Yeah.

00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:24.560
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:24.660
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:24.660 --> 00:34:25.140
 Yeah.

00:34:25.140 --> 00:34:27.460
 And it can make your word of, the

00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:28.780
 word of God you speak more

00:34:28.780 --> 00:34:30.860
 powerful if you're, if you're

00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:32.440
 entering into relationship with

00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:34.660
 them over the long term.

00:34:34.660 --> 00:34:35.280
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:35.580
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:36.740
 I think that will make more

00:34:36.740 --> 00:34:38.300
 meaningful and more powerful the

00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:40.000
 word of God that you speak to

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.240
 them.

00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:40.720
 Yeah.

00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:43.880
 It's hard to express yourself and

00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:46.240
 talk to somebody if you feel like

00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:47.980
 they're half listening and they don't

00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:50.360
 really care to take the time or

00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:51.519
 effort to understand.

00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:52.100
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:52.100 --> 00:34:52.760
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:53.200
 Yeah.

00:34:53.200 --> 00:34:53.500
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:54.019 --> 00:34:54.240
 Yeah.

00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:54.280
 Yeah.

00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:54.960
 Absolutely.

00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:55.820
 It shuts down.

00:34:56.140 --> 00:34:56.500
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:56.500 --> 00:34:56.760
 Mm-hmm.

00:34:57.040 --> 00:34:57.560
 Yeah.

00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:58.040
 Yeah.

00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:01.180
 So, I think to move on to the

00:35:01.180 --> 00:35:03.340
 second section, and thank you all

00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:06.160
 for your feedback, it would be on

00:35:06.160 --> 00:35:08.820
 vulnerability as kind of another

00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:12.920
 necessary condition to be able to

00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:14.380
 walk with people well in mental

00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:14.800
 illness.

00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:18.500
 And I think somebody in, like, a

00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:19.579
 previous class had mentioned, you

00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:20.720
 know, when we go to church, we see

00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:22.140
 happy, shiny people, right?

00:35:22.200 --> 00:35:24.360
 And so, there's kind of that, like,

00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:25.519
 feeling of, like, well, what's wrong

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.180
 with me that I'm not happy and

00:35:27.180 --> 00:35:27.460
 shiny?

00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:29.620
 And vulnerability goes a long way

00:35:29.620 --> 00:35:31.180
 towards being able to share in the

00:35:31.180 --> 00:35:33.320
 struggles that other people have

00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:33.620
 have.

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:36.079
 So, in terms of what is it,

00:35:36.220 --> 00:35:38.340
 vulnerability is an invitation to

00:35:38.980 --> 00:35:41.340
 be fully known and fully loved by

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:42.559
 one another.

00:35:44.180 --> 00:35:45.559
 And when we think about, you know,

00:35:45.740 --> 00:35:47.800
 what is needed to create life

00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:49.720
 literally, biologically, right, you

00:35:49.720 --> 00:35:51.240
 need to be vulnerable, you need to

00:35:51.240 --> 00:35:53.840
 be naked in order to create new life.

00:35:53.900 --> 00:35:55.760
 And in the same way, like, a

00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:59.640
 nakedness emotionally is needed to

00:35:59.640 --> 00:36:01.320
 be able to create new life within the

00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:01.600
 church.

00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.000
 It's a skill to be practiced, right?

00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:04.980
 So, it's not just something that

00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:07.400
 happens, but really trying to challenge

00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:10.779
 ourselves, you know, are we actually

00:36:10.779 --> 00:36:12.139
 being vulnerable with one another when

00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:12.659
 we share?

00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:16.500
 In terms of what gets in the way of

00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:18.500
 vulnerability, we have broken it up

00:36:18.500 --> 00:36:21.099
 into, you know, both what, for those

00:36:21.099 --> 00:36:22.579
 who are in the midst of struggling with

00:36:22.579 --> 00:36:25.159
 mental illness, what gets in the way of

00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:25.839
 being vulnerable.

00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:25.920
 vulnerable.

00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:27.860
 And we think about, you know,

00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:30.900
 sometimes, you know, hard events

00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:32.160
 happen, somebody shares that they're

00:36:32.160 --> 00:36:33.559
 struggling with depression, a suicide

00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:35.280
 happens, and everybody else says, oh, we

00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.000
 never knew that this person was

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:37.740
 struggling, right?

00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.300
 And we'll circle back to that.

00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:42.760
 But then the other piece is also, you

00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:44.280
 know, what gets in the way of us who are

00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.380
 not currently struggling with mental

00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:49.980
 illness, being able to be vulnerable or

00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:51.860
 participate in that culture of

00:36:51.860 --> 00:36:52.300
 vulnerability.

00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.640
 In terms of, you know, when someone is

00:36:56.640 --> 00:36:57.880
 in the midst of currently struggling

00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.059
 with mental illness, I think the big two

00:37:01.059 --> 00:37:02.599
 are that there's a lot of shame around

00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:04.539
 it, which then leads to aloneness.

00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:07.059
 And I think shame as opposed to guilt is

00:37:07.059 --> 00:37:08.519
 this idea, not just that I've done

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:10.260
 something bad, but I am bad.

00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:11.500
 I'm not enough.

00:37:12.120 --> 00:37:14.700
 And then that can lead us to hide our

00:37:14.700 --> 00:37:17.579
 struggles and to isolate a lot more,

00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:19.559
 which worsens the mental illness, but

00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:20.860
 it's also common to all mental

00:37:20.860 --> 00:37:21.539
 illness, right?

00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.280
 And so if you think about depression,

00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:24.960
 somebody's too depressed to get out of

00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.320
 bed, they can't join the body of

00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:26.700
 believers.

00:37:27.220 --> 00:37:29.120
 Somebody with eating disorders is like

00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:31.000
 counting their calories and can't

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.940
 share in the life of food with the,

00:37:34.140 --> 00:37:35.360
 you know, which so much of our culture

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:36.420
 is built around, right?

00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:37.980
 Because they're like doing their own

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:41.460
 little thing that has to be, you

00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:42.800
 know, X calories and look a certain

00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:43.059
 way.

00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:45.220
 The same with like tics or compulsions,

00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:45.440
 right?

00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:47.440
 That people often kind of withdraw and

00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.940
 isolate because there is a lot of shame

00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:50.260
 around what that looks like.

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:53.840
 Um, with anxieties and phobias, right?

00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:55.260
 Not being able to leave the house

00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:57.500
 because they're worried a panic attack

00:37:57.500 --> 00:37:58.160
 is going to happen.

00:37:58.160 --> 00:37:59.460
 And then there's not going to be

00:37:59.460 --> 00:38:01.539
 anybody around to help them.

00:38:01.539 --> 00:38:05.019
 So like, or even psychosis, right?

00:38:05.019 --> 00:38:06.720
 Which is you're worried.

00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.960
 You might be worried people are out to

00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:08.500
 get you, right?

00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:09.599
 It's hard to trust anybody.

00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:11.260
 There's a conspiracy against you.

00:38:11.860 --> 00:38:13.280
 Um, so all of these are just kind of

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.579
 different aspects of how, even across

00:38:16.579 --> 00:38:18.519
 the spectrum of mental illness, there

00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:21.799
 are these kind of really core things

00:38:21.799 --> 00:38:23.639
 that further isolate people from the

00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:24.519
 life of the church.

00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:26.299
 Um, yeah.

00:38:27.799 --> 00:38:31.199
 Um, so for those of us who, I think

00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:32.599
 this can apply to both, but for those

00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.960
 of us who maybe are supporting people,

00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.159
 um, who are struggling with mental

00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:38.639
 illness, but don't have mental illness

00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.299
 ourselves, uh, there's a lot that kind

00:38:41.300 --> 00:38:43.000
 of make it hard for us to be vulnerable

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:45.400
 to when, when we're in those places.

00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:48.360
 Um, and our vulnerability, even when

00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.460
 we're not specifically struggling with

00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:53.640
 mental illness can actually free up

00:38:53.640 --> 00:38:55.320
 people who are struggling with mental

00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:56.840
 illness to be vulnerable to.

00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:58.700
 So it's, we still play an important role

00:38:58.700 --> 00:38:59.700
 when we're in that place.

00:39:00.080 --> 00:39:03.120
 Um, so I think, yeah, sometimes we, we

00:39:03.120 --> 00:39:03.960
 want to protect ourselves.

00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.380
 We want to protect our image and

00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:06.060
 church, right?

00:39:06.060 --> 00:39:07.980
 I think sometimes there's a, there's a

00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:09.820
 sense of like, Oh, if I, if I revealed,

00:39:09.820 --> 00:39:12.260
 like I've had a terrible week and I

00:39:12.260 --> 00:39:14.080
 feel like I'm falling apart, even if

00:39:14.080 --> 00:39:16.340
 that's true, I think there can be an

00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:17.720
 implicit sense of like, well, people

00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:18.820
 think less of me.

00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:21.920
 Like, will I not be seen as, as godly?

00:39:22.140 --> 00:39:25.460
 Like, will people, yeah, kind of look

00:39:25.460 --> 00:39:25.980
 down on me?

00:39:26.019 --> 00:39:28.019
 I think that's a real, a real fear.

00:39:29.059 --> 00:39:31.640
 Um, busyness, like sometimes, you

00:39:31.640 --> 00:39:33.019
 know, we're rushing out of church, we're

00:39:33.019 --> 00:39:34.019
 rushing out of small group.

00:39:34.140 --> 00:39:36.059
 It takes time and intentionality to

00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:37.860
 sit down with someone and say, Hey, I'm

00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:38.880
 really, really anxious.

00:39:39.820 --> 00:39:41.600
 And I'm really struggling with just, it

00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:41.980
 takes time.

00:39:42.620 --> 00:39:47.080
 Um, I think also we can, um, uh, sort

00:39:47.080 --> 00:39:49.400
 of do transparency as opposed to

00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:49.820
 vulnerability.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.559
 So one time transparency was described

00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.100
 to me as like giving a lot of

00:39:54.100 --> 00:39:57.820
 information, but vulnerability is giving

00:39:57.820 --> 00:40:00.460
 information and giving an invitation, um,

00:40:00.460 --> 00:40:02.340
 to another person to enter into what

00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:03.100
 you're experiencing.

00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:05.680
 So, and this can kind of go along with,

00:40:05.680 --> 00:40:07.160
 um, spiritual bypassing, which we

00:40:07.160 --> 00:40:08.539
 talked about a couple of weeks ago.

00:40:08.539 --> 00:40:11.300
 So an example of this, um, so let's

00:40:11.300 --> 00:40:13.139
 say Stephanie and I are chatting at

00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:13.800
 small group.

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:15.340
 Stephanie says, how are you?

00:40:16.059 --> 00:40:18.340
 And, you know, I'm having a rough week

00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:20.159
 with OCD and I say, Oh, you know, it's

00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:23.860
 been a rough week, but today is okay.

00:40:23.860 --> 00:40:27.239
 I know that God is faithful and he's

00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:28.019
 going to get me through it.

00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:32.820
 So I'm like, I'm feeling, you know, I'm

00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:33.300
 feeling better.

00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:33.599
 Right.

00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:36.119
 Like those things might all be true,

00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:36.599
 right?

00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:38.679
 Like I might've really had a rough week.

00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:40.719
 God really is faithful and it's going

00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:41.619
 to get me through it.

00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:43.519
 Today might really have been a better

00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:43.960
 day.

00:40:44.059 --> 00:40:45.340
 Like those things might all be true.

00:40:45.380 --> 00:40:46.960
 And that's not a bad, those aren't

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:48.039
 bad things to say.

00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:50.179
 However, that doesn't really give

00:40:50.179 --> 00:40:53.320
 Stephanie an invitation to enter into

00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:54.239
 my experience.

00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:56.539
 And that kind of response is a lot

00:40:56.539 --> 00:40:59.379
 less risky than a vulnerable response,

00:40:59.379 --> 00:41:01.119
 which would be saying like, honestly,

00:41:01.259 --> 00:41:02.779
 Stephanie, I'm really struggling.

00:41:03.299 --> 00:41:05.699
 Like I want to trust in God's promises

00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:08.219
 and I'm trying to, but I'm having a

00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:09.019
 really hard time.

00:41:09.319 --> 00:41:11.939
 Would you be willing to meet up with me

00:41:11.939 --> 00:41:13.199
 a couple of times this week?

00:41:13.279 --> 00:41:14.899
 And could I talk to you more about how

00:41:14.899 --> 00:41:15.439
 I'm doing?

00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:17.500
 Like personally, even as I'm saying

00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:19.619
 that I like recoil against that more

00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:20.219
 internally, right?

00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:21.899
 Like that's a lot harder to do than to

00:41:21.899 --> 00:41:23.119
 say like, it's okay.

00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:24.119
 Getting through.

00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.759
 You know, so I think we can actually,

00:41:27.279 --> 00:41:28.960
 whether or not we're struggling with

00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.980
 mental illness at a given time, we can

00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:33.559
 free people who are struggling up to

00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:35.319
 be vulnerable if we are willing to

00:41:35.319 --> 00:41:38.400
 actually give people an invitation to

00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:39.619
 enter into our experience.

00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.239
 Laura Denny once described it to me

00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.239
 like transparency is like, if you have

00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:48.480
 like a room, if your internal experience

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:49.799
 is like a room, it's like inviting

00:41:49.799 --> 00:41:51.779
 someone in like a museum and saying

00:41:51.779 --> 00:41:53.739
 like, look, there's a nice dresser.

00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:54.759
 There's a desk.

00:41:54.959 --> 00:41:55.959
 There's a bed.

00:41:56.379 --> 00:41:56.699
 Okay.

00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.500
 Leave now.

00:41:57.899 --> 00:41:59.979
 And vulnerability is like saying like,

00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.619
 okay, can I'm inviting you to like open

00:42:02.619 --> 00:42:04.859
 up the drawer and rifle through the drawer

00:42:04.859 --> 00:42:07.439
 and say, oh, here's like a stray sock.

00:42:07.439 --> 00:42:10.179
 And like, oh, under your bed, there's all

00:42:10.179 --> 00:42:10.759
 this stuff, right?

00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.240
 So it's a lot harder to do.

00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.320
 It's, you know, it takes a lot of courage

00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.080
 to do, but I think that that can really

00:42:17.080 --> 00:42:19.780
 both help us if we're experiencing mental

00:42:19.780 --> 00:42:21.920
 illness and just having that kind of

00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:23.980
 attitude and atmosphere in church can make

00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:25.340
 it easier for people to share.

00:42:26.040 --> 00:42:28.020
 And I think that it necessarily requires

00:42:28.020 --> 00:42:30.000
 kind of like smaller groups, right?

00:42:30.060 --> 00:42:32.480
 And again, like that trust and relationship

00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:33.060
 building.

00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:35.380
 I think we had a, we were talking about

00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:36.699
 how like on social media, right?

00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:40.860
 There's like the illusion of vulnerability

00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:42.480
 because everybody's just kind of posting

00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.299
 about how bad they're doing or, you know,

00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:49.320
 like, you know, hashtag XYZ, you know,

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.400
 and sometimes mental illness is part of that,

00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:51.539
 right?

00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:53.079
 Like, you know, you're just kind of announcing

00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.719
 to hundreds of people that you're having

00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:57.199
 a really bad day, but there's no,

00:42:57.279 --> 00:42:59.219
 but you're just kind of like throwing it

00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:01.819
 out there with no expectation necessarily

00:43:01.819 --> 00:43:03.939
 of response other than like a surface level

00:43:03.939 --> 00:43:05.599
 like or dislike or something like that.

00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:08.859
 And so there's something about kind of

00:43:08.859 --> 00:43:11.799
 opening ourselves up that is only possible

00:43:11.799 --> 00:43:14.139
 in kind of smaller groups where you can

00:43:14.139 --> 00:43:17.559
 read the feedback of what this person

00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:19.779
 is seeing and feeling that is really

00:43:19.779 --> 00:43:20.379
 challenging.

00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.699
 And for those of us who have kind of been

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:25.619
 in church culture for a while,

00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:27.619
 I think there's kind of the tendency to

00:43:27.619 --> 00:43:32.179
 get adept at kind of an illusion of

00:43:32.179 --> 00:43:34.739
 vulnerability without actually being

00:43:34.739 --> 00:43:35.440
 vulnerable, right?

00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.059
 Like we know how to perform vulnerability,

00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.839
 which is, you know, like you say certain

00:43:39.839 --> 00:43:41.500
 things, you sprinkle in certain verses,

00:43:41.819 --> 00:43:44.400
 you kind of like tie it up with a nice bow

00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.819
 and like, oh, you've like shared, right?

00:43:48.539 --> 00:43:49.859
 I mean, I've done that.

00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:51.319
 Yeah, no, totally.

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.420
 We're all guilty of that, right?

00:43:54.299 --> 00:43:55.699
 Yeah, we've all done it because it,

00:43:56.019 --> 00:43:57.440
 you know, it's protective in some ways,

00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.900
 but it also precludes or it like kind of

00:43:59.900 --> 00:44:01.900
 shuts out other people from being able to

00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:02.980
 speak into our lives.

00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.039
 And something I'm always trying to,

00:44:06.460 --> 00:44:08.579
 when I see clients, I'm always suggesting

00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:10.940
 they do, but I think is very good for us to

00:44:10.940 --> 00:44:13.220
 do is every one of us, whether or not we're

00:44:13.220 --> 00:44:14.639
 struggling with our mental health or not to

00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.760
 just, we should be inviting our brothers

00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.400
 and sisters to enter in with us.

00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.619
 And so I guess a challenge or an encouragement

00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:26.220
 is to just like, like ask a person like,

00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.420
 hey, will you meet up with me for coffee

00:44:28.420 --> 00:44:30.180
 or lunch or whatever?

00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.780
 So I can share about this hard thing in my life

00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:34.920
 and ask for your support.

00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.740
 Like that is not fun to do.

00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:39.440
 Like it's, it's really, that is not always fun to do.

00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.599
 Like for me, it's much easier if somebody asks me

00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:44.099
 to have lunch that they can share.

00:44:44.180 --> 00:44:44.340
 Right.

00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:46.300
 But I think like, regardless of whether we're

00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:48.039
 struggling with mental illness or not,

00:44:48.460 --> 00:44:50.620
 that is a thing that we should all do as

00:44:50.620 --> 00:44:53.340
 believers in Christ to believe that we are

00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:55.840
 prone to weakness and struggle with our

00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:58.160
 struggles with sin or with mental illness or

00:44:58.160 --> 00:45:01.240
 with family dynamics or, you know, whatever

00:45:01.240 --> 00:45:03.380
 the case might be to really invite someone to

00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:05.860
 enter into that, I think is, is important.

00:45:06.200 --> 00:45:07.740
 So that's a, that's a.

00:45:10.740 --> 00:45:11.220
 Yeah.

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:13.440
 Yeah.

00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:14.360
 Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:14.539 --> 00:45:18.539
 And even invite people to support us too.

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.260
 So don't just say, here's my life story.

00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:21.880
 We're good.

00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:24.820
 You know, but like, can you ask me more about

00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:27.079
 my struggles with body image or can you ask

00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:30.360
 me more about my struggles with, you know, X, Y, Z?

00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:33.920
 I think that's a good point about like maybe

00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.619
 sometimes giving people permission to do that.

00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:37.940
 Right.

00:45:38.240 --> 00:45:40.059
 Or like, you know, when I'm not feeling well,

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:41.559
 I may not have the words to.

00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:45.420
 You know, kind of fully describe my experience, but

00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.380
 you know, I want, I want you to walk alongside

00:45:47.380 --> 00:45:47.699
 me.

00:45:47.779 --> 00:45:49.460
 And so now I'm telling, you know, now I'm saying

00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:50.880
 like, even when I withdraw, like, please come

00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:51.960
 find me, you know?

00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.860
 And so giving people permission a little bit

00:45:53.860 --> 00:45:55.619
 when we're able to is helpful.

00:45:58.420 --> 00:46:01.519
 Just to read a little part of this quote, I think

00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:04.840
 what makes vulnerability uncomfortable?

00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.200
 Like what makes it uncomfortable to receive

00:46:07.200 --> 00:46:07.620
 vulnerability?

00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.519
 And I'll just read the end here.

00:46:10.420 --> 00:46:12.559
 Speaking of people with mental illness or who are

00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.340
 suffering, we don't want to look at them because

00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:17.640
 they remind us of what we're trying to forget.

00:46:17.640 --> 00:46:19.900
 The truth about every single one of us.

00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:22.280
 And I think there's an important thing we can

00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:22.700
 acknowledge.

00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:25.940
 I think that we have a, as Christians can

00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:28.019
 acknowledge, like we're sinners, right?

00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.680
 We're all sinners.

00:46:28.820 --> 00:46:31.280
 We've all fallen short and we are all prone to

00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.280
 weakness and struggle on this side of heaven.

00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:38.200
 And so when somebody else is struggling or seeming

00:46:38.200 --> 00:46:40.519
 really visibly weak or not having it all together,

00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:44.519
 a good stance is not like, oh, they've got that

00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:45.640
 going on, but I'm okay.

00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:48.960
 But rather like, oh, like you and me are the same.

00:46:49.240 --> 00:46:51.140
 You know, it might not look exactly the same.

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.040
 Like maybe I have a better outward presentation

00:46:54.040 --> 00:46:57.640
 than you, but like internally, like we are the same

00:46:57.640 --> 00:47:00.240
 in terms of our susceptibility to weakness and

00:47:00.240 --> 00:47:00.680
 struggle.

00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.519
 And that doesn't mean we have to be exactly where

00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:07.820
 they are, but like, this is kind of our, how we can

00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:08.860
 bear with one another.

00:47:10.540 --> 00:47:14.600
 And then the last piece, I mean, and we've talked

00:47:14.600 --> 00:47:16.780
 about this kind of sprinkled in is what promotes

00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:17.300
 vulnerability.

00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:20.740
 And so we've talked about how having regular frequent

00:47:20.740 --> 00:47:25.440
 contact with a couple people, being intentional about

00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.580
 sharing in real time what we're struggling with, not

00:47:28.579 --> 00:47:32.099
 just when it's all kind of wrapped up is really important.

00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:34.860
 Are we able to, you know, are there two or three people

00:47:34.860 --> 00:47:37.940
 that we've given kind of permission to be intrusive in

00:47:37.940 --> 00:47:38.519
 our lives?

00:47:38.739 --> 00:47:43.039
 Are there people that we are regularly kind of confessing

00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:46.460
 all the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, conflicts,

00:47:46.739 --> 00:47:53.199
 desires, thoughts to, um, and just really choosing a couple

00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:55.000
 people that we can do life with?

00:47:55.439 --> 00:47:57.799
 Um, yeah.

00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:02.539
 And I think that, so a couple more, um, from other sources

00:48:02.539 --> 00:48:03.759
 would be Hebrews.

00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:07.379
 Um, where it talks about, you know, let's spur one another on

00:48:07.379 --> 00:48:09.980
 towards love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together,

00:48:09.980 --> 00:48:11.539
 but encouraging one another.

00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:13.940
 And all the more as you see the day approaching.

00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:17.119
 Um, and again, just the idea of how the church is uniquely

00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:20.619
 situated to be a place of community and welcoming into

00:48:20.619 --> 00:48:21.739
 new relationships, right?

00:48:21.739 --> 00:48:25.559
 That it was such a radical thing for Jesus to say, you know,

00:48:25.579 --> 00:48:28.099
 my biological mother and brothers, who are, who are they,

00:48:28.179 --> 00:48:28.380
 right?

00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:31.219
 The people who are doing God's will.

00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.659
 Those are the people who are my brothers and sisters at a,

00:48:33.659 --> 00:48:37.440
 in a culture where family ties were preeminent.

00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.579
 Um, and when, and when Jesus heals the bleeding woman,

00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:43.300
 he doesn't just heal her, but he calls her daughter.

00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:47.220
 And there's kind of a naming of that relationship of really

00:48:47.220 --> 00:48:51.980
 welcoming her into a network of ties, um, that is really

00:48:51.980 --> 00:48:53.300
 life transforming for people.

00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:54.980
 That is part of the healing process.

00:48:55.500 --> 00:49:00.260
 Um, not just like the practical healing of X, Y, and Z,

00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:02.480
 which often is not possible anyway with mental illness.

00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:07.340
 So I think just the, um, last quote that,

00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:08.179
 or maybe not.

00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:09.119
 Oh yeah.

00:49:09.240 --> 00:49:09.559
 Oh, okay.

00:49:09.700 --> 00:49:09.840
 Yeah.

00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:11.200
 The last quote again from Bonhoeffer,

00:49:11.260 --> 00:49:13.220
 cause it's a really good book on life together.

00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:16.300
 Um, it's kind of, it's kind of a long one,

00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:19.360
 but just the parts, I mean, I think the paraphrase is,

00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:22.000
 you know, often we think that it's easier to confess our sins

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.360
 to God than to our brothers and sisters.

00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:27.619
 And why is that when God is so holy and just and blameless?

00:49:27.740 --> 00:49:31.000
 And maybe it's that there's a part of our confession to God

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:33.659
 that is actually self-deception, right?

00:49:33.740 --> 00:49:35.659
 Because, and if it's easy, you know, if it's easier,

00:49:35.659 --> 00:49:37.359
 we should ask ourselves, are we self-deceiving?

00:49:37.799 --> 00:49:41.639
 And that being able to confess to another broken human being

00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.119
 who can reflect God's presence and forgiveness to us

00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:48.299
 is often another good litmus test of, you know,

00:49:48.359 --> 00:49:49.980
 have we actually confessed this thing

00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:51.299
 that we're really ashamed about?

00:49:51.300 --> 00:49:56.140
 And so the importance of just being vulnerable with one another.

00:49:56.140 --> 00:50:00.140
 It makes me think of the Catholics that go to the priest

00:50:00.140 --> 00:50:05.360
 and confess, and I've heard that a lot of Protesters put that down

00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.780
 as only between you, it only needs to be between you and God.

00:50:09.660 --> 00:50:15.300
 But this would kind of give grievance or affirmation

00:50:15.300 --> 00:50:17.240
 to the idea of going to a priest?

00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:19.359
 Or someone else?

00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:20.539
 I mean, I don't know.

00:50:20.539 --> 00:50:21.519
 Or that I think that...

00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:25.219
 Or I think that it doesn't...

00:50:25.219 --> 00:50:27.879
 That, you know, maybe a priest, but also like all of us

00:50:27.879 --> 00:50:32.099
 should be capable of receiving another person's confession of sin, right?

00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:35.619
 Because all of us have a personal relationship with Christ

00:50:35.619 --> 00:50:40.339
 and we are able to reflect God's forgiveness and presence

00:50:40.339 --> 00:50:41.879
 and be able to tolerate that confession.

00:50:42.279 --> 00:50:44.019
 So it doesn't just need to be mediated through...

00:50:44.019 --> 00:50:45.019
 It doesn't have a weakness.

00:50:45.019 --> 00:50:46.440
 It doesn't count a little weakness.

00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:49.639
 When you think of the people in the New Testament,

00:50:49.940 --> 00:50:52.440
 like Paul and all, they talked about their weaknesses.

00:50:54.940 --> 00:50:55.619
 And I think...

00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:57.840
 Their struggles, they didn't hide it.

00:50:58.840 --> 00:50:59.079
 Right.

00:50:59.420 --> 00:51:00.900
 And I think this kind of confession...

00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:05.460
 I know Bonhoeffer here is talking about confessing probably sin specifically,

00:51:05.619 --> 00:51:08.480
 but I think there's a different kind of confiding

00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:11.239
 what we have a hard time with about our mental health,

00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.280
 which is similar but different, right?

00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.800
 Like if I go to Carolyn and say,

00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:16.640
 hey, I'm really struggling with my mental health,

00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:20.680
 I'm not necessarily confessing sin in that case.

00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:21.280
 Maybe I am.

00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:21.640
 Who knows?

00:51:21.700 --> 00:51:22.440
 Like maybe both.

00:51:22.600 --> 00:51:25.280
 But, you know, there's a similar sense of like,

00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.040
 I'm going to choose another person who I trust

00:51:29.040 --> 00:51:32.960
 and invite them to either support me,

00:51:33.060 --> 00:51:36.240
 hold me accountable, get me out of bed in the morning,

00:51:36.620 --> 00:51:38.380
 you know, whatever it is.

00:51:38.380 --> 00:51:41.099
 And choosing not to just go it alone,

00:51:41.300 --> 00:51:43.400
 but rather invite somebody else into that,

00:51:43.500 --> 00:51:45.539
 I think is important,

00:51:45.680 --> 00:51:47.460
 whether that's sin or mental illness or both.

00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:49.800
 I think in answer to that,

00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:51.699
 another answer to that first question,

00:51:51.820 --> 00:51:54.579
 why is it often easier to confess those sins to God

00:51:54.579 --> 00:51:56.019
 than to a brother?

00:51:56.159 --> 00:52:00.220
 Because we know that we don't have to impress God.

00:52:00.380 --> 00:52:03.760
 He already knows our sins and our weaknesses,

00:52:04.139 --> 00:52:05.920
 whereas with other people,

00:52:05.980 --> 00:52:07.360
 we want to give a good impression.

00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:07.800
 Yeah.

00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:10.039
 Yeah.

00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:11.940
 And we want a good reputation.

00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:12.980
 Mm-hmm.

00:52:13.059 --> 00:52:13.539
 Yeah.

00:52:13.940 --> 00:52:14.220
 Yeah.

00:52:14.660 --> 00:52:15.059
 Yeah.

00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:15.940
 Yeah.

00:52:15.980 --> 00:52:17.860
 What do other, like, it's a good point,

00:52:17.980 --> 00:52:19.700
 like in terms of vulnerability,

00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:23.579
 what do you all think makes it easier or harder

00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:26.320
 to be vulnerable in a church setting

00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:28.780
 or among Christian friends?

00:52:29.720 --> 00:52:31.099
 What are things that help that

00:52:31.099 --> 00:52:33.420
 or barriers that you've maybe experienced with that?

00:52:33.500 --> 00:52:33.700
 Alicia.

00:52:33.699 --> 00:52:33.819
 Alicia.

00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:37.919
 So when, like, in the process of growing up, I guess,

00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:42.119
 I realized that I was, like, telling myself,

00:52:42.399 --> 00:52:44.279
 like, oh, I don't want to burden other people

00:52:44.279 --> 00:52:48.539
 as, like, a way to prevent, like, protect myself, I think.

00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:49.359
 Mm-hmm.

00:52:49.359 --> 00:52:52.759
 But I remember having a friend going through, like,

00:52:52.799 --> 00:52:55.059
 a very difficult thing for months

00:52:55.059 --> 00:52:56.739
 and then she finally told me about it

00:52:56.739 --> 00:52:59.179
 and I was, like, appalled that she, like,

00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:00.599
 I was, like, thinking to myself, like,

00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:02.679
 why hadn't she come to me earlier with this?

00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:03.079
 Mm-hmm.

00:53:03.079 --> 00:53:04.460
 And I realized, like, why,

00:53:05.340 --> 00:53:07.440
 if I'm always presenting, like, this, like,

00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.480
 perfect facade, like, people are going to want to be,

00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:11.880
 like, oh, you are perfect.

00:53:11.980 --> 00:53:13.380
 Like, here's all my work.

00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:14.880
 Oh, okay.

00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:17.739
 So, like, in order to, like,

00:53:17.779 --> 00:53:19.639
 love the people in my life well,

00:53:19.739 --> 00:53:22.079
 I needed to be, like, more,

00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.119
 like, be okay with burdening them

00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:25.860
 because then they would feel,

00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:27.319
 like, you had said,

00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:29.860
 I'd much rather be the person, like,

00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:31.000
 not to come to, like,

00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.760
 hearing about other people's struggles

00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:33.320
 than, like,

00:53:33.739 --> 00:53:34.780
 and so I think in order

00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:37.099
 to be able to give other people that support,

00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:37.860
 we have to, like,

00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:39.599
 let them support us too.

00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:40.800
 So, yeah.

00:53:41.179 --> 00:53:41.500
 Yeah.

00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:44.239
 And I think that's the beauty of the church body

00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:45.239
 is that there, you know,

00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:46.619
 people are struggling with different things.

00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:47.559
 So it's not just, like,

00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:49.599
 so I think maybe the challenge

00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.440
 and invitation of, for us is, you know,

00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.500
 how to, like, quote, unquote,

00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:55.860
 healthy people in different ways,

00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.480
 walk with people who are struggling

00:53:58.480 --> 00:53:59.480
 in different ways, right,

00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:00.299
 although we're all struggling

00:54:00.299 --> 00:54:01.460
 with different things.

00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:05.799
 But it starts with kind of modeling it first, right,

00:54:05.799 --> 00:54:07.719
 that we can't expect, you know,

00:54:07.739 --> 00:54:08.619
 a culture of vulnerability

00:54:08.619 --> 00:54:10.059
 of, like, we ourselves have not

00:54:10.059 --> 00:54:11.759
 been able to show that, yeah.

00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:16.420
 And I would say 98 times out of 100,

00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:19.160
 like, someone will,

00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:21.900
 if somebody is struggling,

00:54:22.180 --> 00:54:23.280
 they're going to go to someone

00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:25.860
 who they also know struggles with something.

00:54:26.260 --> 00:54:27.180
 I mean, at least for me,

00:54:27.240 --> 00:54:29.120
 I'm, like, exactly what you said.

00:54:29.200 --> 00:54:31.080
 I'm, like, if I'm really having a rough time

00:54:31.080 --> 00:54:32.120
 with my mental health

00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:33.180
 and I think of, like,

00:54:33.600 --> 00:54:35.140
 the 10 people I know at church

00:54:35.140 --> 00:54:36.320
 I might want support from,

00:54:37.240 --> 00:54:38.780
 10 out of 10 times will be, like,

00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:40.120
 okay, has anybody experienced,

00:54:40.780 --> 00:54:41.740
 you know, they don't have to go through

00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:42.739
 someone's struggle with mental health,

00:54:42.799 --> 00:54:44.319
 but has anybody talked about struggling?

00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:46.039
 Like, has anyone walked through

00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:46.779
 something difficult?

00:54:46.919 --> 00:54:47.899
 Has anyone been vulnerable?

00:54:48.479 --> 00:54:50.479
 I mean, I don't consciously think that,

00:54:50.539 --> 00:54:52.000
 but that's who I'll probably gravitate

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.500
 toward feeling more comfortable with.

00:54:53.619 --> 00:54:55.479
 And so I think we can do a lot

00:54:55.479 --> 00:54:56.839
 to encourage our friends

00:54:56.839 --> 00:54:58.339
 who are struggling with mental illness

00:54:58.339 --> 00:54:59.639
 by, even if we don't have

00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:01.239
 a longstanding struggle of depression,

00:55:01.799 --> 00:55:02.759
 being willing to say, like,

00:55:02.839 --> 00:55:03.579
 hey, you know what?

00:55:04.539 --> 00:55:05.899
 This is what I'm walking through

00:55:05.899 --> 00:55:06.879
 that's really hard.

00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:07.839
 Could you support me?

00:55:07.919 --> 00:55:09.119
 They're probably going to be

00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:11.599
 a lot more likely to reciprocate that.

00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:12.179
 Yeah.

00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:15.119
 Any other comments?

00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:15.339
 Yeah.

00:55:15.699 --> 00:55:16.879
 I think sometimes we're afraid

00:55:16.879 --> 00:55:19.699
 of a breach of confidentiality.

00:55:20.099 --> 00:55:20.419
 Hmm.

00:55:20.659 --> 00:55:22.079
 We share ourselves, like,

00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:23.719
 I've shared things with them,

00:55:23.779 --> 00:55:25.399
 so just keep it confidential,

00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:26.379
 say anything,

00:55:26.759 --> 00:55:27.199
 say anything,

00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:27.799
 say anything,

00:55:27.799 --> 00:55:27.979
 say anything,

00:55:27.979 --> 00:55:28.299
 say anything,

00:55:28.299 --> 00:55:28.799
 say anything.

00:55:28.799 --> 00:55:29.939
 And if they do that,

00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:31.239
 we'll trust them.

00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:31.959
 Hmm.

00:55:33.419 --> 00:55:33.939
 So,

00:55:34.179 --> 00:55:34.979
 and that may make us

00:55:34.979 --> 00:55:35.919
 a little more hesitant.

00:55:36.539 --> 00:55:36.839
 Hmm.

00:55:37.359 --> 00:55:37.899
 Sure, yeah.

00:55:37.899 --> 00:55:38.519
 And then they say,

00:55:38.619 --> 00:55:39.299
 yes, you know,

00:55:39.419 --> 00:55:40.479
 keep it between us,

00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:41.500
 and they do

00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:42.500
 some of it out

00:55:42.500 --> 00:55:43.760
 and tell us faster.

00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:44.539
 Sure.

00:55:44.699 --> 00:55:45.340
 Right, sure.

00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:45.760
 Yeah.

00:55:46.219 --> 00:55:46.659
 Yeah.

00:55:46.900 --> 00:55:47.219
 Tyler?

00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:49.940
 It reminds me of a CS Lewis quote

00:55:49.940 --> 00:55:51.400
 where he sort of says

00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:52.199
 something like,

00:55:52.579 --> 00:55:54.039
 friendship forms the moment

00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:54.960
 when you can say,

00:55:55.300 --> 00:55:55.719
 you too.

00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:56.940
 Mm-hmm.

00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:57.559
 Mm-hmm.

00:55:57.559 --> 00:55:57.840
 You too,

00:55:57.900 --> 00:55:58.980
 you experience the same thing.

00:55:59.159 --> 00:55:59.900
 Oh, I saw.

00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:00.679
 You too, like,

00:56:00.860 --> 00:56:01.760
 you love Christ,

00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:02.579
 so do I.

00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:03.099
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:03.099 --> 00:56:03.440
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:04.900
 And it reminds me that,

00:56:05.139 --> 00:56:05.500
 you know,

00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:05.860
 God,

00:56:06.839 --> 00:56:08.199
 he discloses himself

00:56:08.199 --> 00:56:08.759
 to his people.

00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:09.319
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:09.319 --> 00:56:09.619
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:09.619 --> 00:56:10.719
 And God had never done that.

00:56:10.779 --> 00:56:12.159
 We can never be friends.

00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:12.699
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:12.699 --> 00:56:14.519
 We can have a relationship

00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:15.119
 with the Lord.

00:56:15.319 --> 00:56:15.559
 Yeah.

00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:16.519
 And he comes to us

00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:17.059
 and he said,

00:56:17.179 --> 00:56:18.360
 these are my thoughts,

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:19.279
 these are my feelings,

00:56:19.619 --> 00:56:20.839
 this is what's important to me.

00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:21.960
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:23.420
 And I wonder,

00:56:23.799 --> 00:56:24.739
 if we don't do that

00:56:24.739 --> 00:56:25.339
 with other people,

00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:26.619
 do we truly have any friends

00:56:26.619 --> 00:56:26.860
 that,

00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:28.799
 in the meaning of,

00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:29.579
 the biblical meaning

00:56:29.579 --> 00:56:30.099
 of friends,

00:56:30.099 --> 00:56:32.759
 where a friend sticks closer

00:56:32.759 --> 00:56:33.299
 than a brother,

00:56:33.839 --> 00:56:34.719
 something like that

00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:35.500
 where we can go to.

00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:36.159
 Yeah.

00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:37.500
 If we're never vulnerable,

00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:38.759
 I don't think we have

00:56:38.759 --> 00:56:39.360
 any of those friends.

00:56:39.460 --> 00:56:39.900
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:41.319
 The Bible clearly

00:56:41.319 --> 00:56:43.759
 is pushing us to,

00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:44.000
 like,

00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.299
 that's,

00:56:44.460 --> 00:56:45.179
 those are the,

00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:46.380
 our church fans,

00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:46.619
 like,

00:56:46.659 --> 00:56:48.059
 we should be that close

00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:48.579
 to each other.

00:56:48.759 --> 00:56:49.199
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:49.799
 Mm-hmm.

00:56:49.799 --> 00:56:50.719
 And that requires

00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:51.380
 one of those people.

00:56:51.579 --> 00:56:51.900
 Yeah.

00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:52.839
 Absolutely.

00:56:53.179 --> 00:56:53.299
 Yeah.

00:56:53.299 --> 00:56:54.380
 I want to also mention

00:56:54.380 --> 00:56:54.659
 that,

00:56:55.179 --> 00:56:56.500
 you know,

00:56:56.519 --> 00:56:57.219
 to be vulnerable,

00:56:57.639 --> 00:56:58.119
 to be,

00:56:58.579 --> 00:56:59.880
 to be more vulnerable,

00:57:00.099 --> 00:57:01.799
 you need to repeat

00:57:01.799 --> 00:57:02.279
 it.

00:57:02.339 --> 00:57:02.900
 Mm-hmm.

00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:03.460
 Mm-hmm.

00:57:03.779 --> 00:57:04.420
 And,

00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:05.599
 To repeat,

00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:06.039
 you said?

00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:06.259
 Yeah.

00:57:06.380 --> 00:57:08.400
 To repeat interaction.

00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:09.279
 Uh-huh.

00:57:09.279 --> 00:57:09.380
 Uh-huh.

00:57:09.380 --> 00:57:10.119
 It's easier.

00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:11.739
 And the other thing

00:57:11.739 --> 00:57:12.139
 is that,

00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:13.299
 sometimes people

00:57:13.299 --> 00:57:15.079
 separate

00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:16.759
 the people they,

00:57:17.759 --> 00:57:19.179
 you know,

00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:20.779
 share positive things

00:57:20.779 --> 00:57:21.579
 with negative

00:57:21.579 --> 00:57:22.319
 because they don't want

00:57:22.319 --> 00:57:22.860
 those things

00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:23.679
 to interact

00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:24.739
 one with the other.

00:57:25.219 --> 00:57:25.920
 Which I don't think

00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:26.559
 is a good idea

00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:28.259
 because when that happens,

00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:29.219
 then the person

00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:31.299
 you kind of vent on

00:57:31.299 --> 00:57:33.299
 after a while

00:57:33.299 --> 00:57:33.739
 would probably

00:57:33.739 --> 00:57:34.339
 want to shun you

00:57:34.339 --> 00:57:36.599
 because of a

00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:36.839
 weird,

00:57:36.939 --> 00:57:37.079
 like,

00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:37.779
 transparency,

00:57:38.279 --> 00:57:39.019
 of,

00:57:39.059 --> 00:57:39.519
 you know,

00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:40.119
 emotions

00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:41.559
 and just kind of

00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:42.639
 view you as like a,

00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:43.579
 so that's why

00:57:43.579 --> 00:57:44.239
 it's important

00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:45.919
 to be open

00:57:45.919 --> 00:57:47.000
 or positive

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:47.579
 and negative

00:57:47.579 --> 00:57:48.480
 and a big,

00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:49.059
 and I guess

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:49.679
 that's what a friendship

00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:50.239
 is, right?

00:57:50.299 --> 00:57:50.399
 I mean,

00:57:50.439 --> 00:57:50.799
 eventually,

00:57:50.980 --> 00:57:51.139
 you know,

00:57:51.139 --> 00:57:51.719
 it's not just

00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.579
 something you dump on

00:57:53.579 --> 00:57:53.899
 or something

00:57:53.899 --> 00:57:55.379
 you just be happy with,

00:57:55.459 --> 00:57:55.619
 but,

00:57:55.699 --> 00:57:55.980
 you know,

00:57:56.279 --> 00:57:57.699
 share ups and downs

00:57:57.699 --> 00:57:58.319
 of a life.

00:57:59.419 --> 00:57:59.659
 Yeah,

00:57:59.739 --> 00:57:59.939
 yeah,

00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:00.879
 yeah,

00:58:00.939 --> 00:58:01.279
 Carolyn.

00:58:01.819 --> 00:58:02.000
 Well,

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:03.039
 just on notes

00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:03.559
 really funny,

00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:04.099
 I'm sorry,

00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:05.599
 to add on to it,

00:58:05.839 --> 00:58:06.699
 this idea that God

00:58:06.699 --> 00:58:08.139
 also shares his sorrows

00:58:08.139 --> 00:58:08.859
 and his anger

00:58:08.859 --> 00:58:09.939
 with his people

00:58:09.939 --> 00:58:10.359
 and,

00:58:10.359 --> 00:58:10.659
 like,

00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:11.960
 the non-fun emotions.

00:58:13.739 --> 00:58:14.179
 Yeah,

00:58:14.339 --> 00:58:15.359
 you have to read

00:58:15.359 --> 00:58:16.679
 much of the Old Testament

00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:17.839
 and what,

00:58:17.919 --> 00:58:18.159
 like,

00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:19.559
 breaks God's heart

00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:20.679
 and what makes him angry

00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:21.219
 and,

00:58:21.219 --> 00:58:21.960
 like,

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:22.819
 I think sometimes

00:58:22.819 --> 00:58:24.799
 it's hardest

00:58:24.799 --> 00:58:25.460
 to be vulnerable

00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:26.260
 with the,

00:58:26.260 --> 00:58:26.800
 like,

00:58:26.860 --> 00:58:27.599
 emotions we see

00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:28.159
 as messy

00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:29.159
 or complicated,

00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:30.500
 which often

00:58:30.500 --> 00:58:31.159
 mental illness

00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:31.780
 touches on

00:58:31.780 --> 00:58:33.320
 that whole spectrum.

00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:34.960
 So,

00:58:35.139 --> 00:58:35.519
 I think

00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:36.599
 to see God

00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:37.280
 model that

00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:37.900
 and God

00:58:37.900 --> 00:58:39.019
 having humans

00:58:39.019 --> 00:58:39.740
 model that

00:58:39.740 --> 00:58:40.760
 through that model.

00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:42.519
 And then what I would

00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:42.679
 like,

00:58:42.780 --> 00:58:43.940
 vulnerability is hard,

00:58:44.059 --> 00:58:44.740
 so it's okay

00:58:44.740 --> 00:58:45.500
 if you take it

00:58:45.500 --> 00:58:46.420
 in small steps.

00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:49.019
 There's,

00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:49.500
 like,

00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:50.519
 personality-wise

00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:51.760
 is like,

00:58:51.820 --> 00:58:52.099
 okay,

00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:53.519
 vulnerability is good,

00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:54.440
 I have to do it,

00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:55.559
 check.

00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:55.659
 Check.

00:58:59.059 --> 00:59:00.039
 And then it's just like,

00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:01.280
 that doesn't ever happen.

00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:03.059
 So it's like,

00:59:03.139 --> 00:59:04.420
 maybe in a conversation

00:59:04.420 --> 00:59:05.380
 with a friend,

00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:05.720
 like,

00:59:05.780 --> 00:59:06.500
 going one,

00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:06.880
 like,

00:59:06.940 --> 00:59:08.139
 saying one more sentence

00:59:08.139 --> 00:59:08.700
 than you would,

00:59:08.740 --> 00:59:08.880
 like,

00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:10.380
 normally feel comfortable

00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:10.820
 saying.

00:59:12.240 --> 00:59:13.559
 Or share one

00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:14.440
 thing in your life

00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:14.920
 that's not,

00:59:14.980 --> 00:59:15.200
 like,

00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:17.260
 going up on the pulpit

00:59:17.260 --> 00:59:18.039
 and having to share

00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:18.599
 with everybody.

00:59:19.059 --> 00:59:19.619
 Uh-huh.

00:59:19.619 --> 00:59:20.019
 Yeah.

00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:22.200
 Yeah.

00:59:22.900 --> 00:59:23.139
 Yeah.

00:59:23.139 --> 00:59:23.240
 Yeah.

00:59:23.240 --> 00:59:23.480
 Yeah.

00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:23.619
 Yeah.

00:59:23.619 --> 00:59:25.940
 So this is a little

00:59:25.940 --> 00:59:26.519
 unorthodox,

00:59:26.659 --> 00:59:27.139
 but I hear my,

00:59:27.359 --> 00:59:28.000
 I think my baby's

00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:28.559
 very hungry,

00:59:28.739 --> 00:59:29.400
 so I'm going to just

00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:30.579
 feed her right back

00:59:30.579 --> 00:59:30.900
 there,

00:59:31.139 --> 00:59:32.759
 and I will then

00:59:32.759 --> 00:59:33.199
 be back.

00:59:33.460 --> 00:59:34.380
 So Stephanie will just,

00:59:34.799 --> 00:59:35.559
 I'll be observing,

00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:36.519
 and then I'll be right back.

00:59:36.519 --> 00:59:36.699
 Okay.

00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:37.239
 All right.

00:59:37.319 --> 00:59:37.759
 Sounds good.

00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:38.139
 This is,

00:59:38.139 --> 00:59:38.739
 like,

00:59:38.859 --> 00:59:39.900
 I guess vulnerable life

00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:40.400
 as it is.

00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:43.659
 All right.

00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:44.219
 So I,

00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:45.199
 I think we'll

00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:47.079
 end on this

00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:48.059
 last section

00:59:48.059 --> 00:59:48.519
 of,

00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:48.779
 you know,

00:59:48.779 --> 00:59:49.960
 what is grace?

00:59:49.960 --> 00:59:53.559
 Grace and humility.

00:59:54.059 --> 00:59:54.380
 Yeah,

00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:54.820
 yeah,

00:59:54.820 --> 00:59:55.059
 yeah,

00:59:55.059 --> 00:59:55.500
 yeah.

00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:55.599
 Yeah.

00:59:59.280 --> 00:59:59.720
 Oh.

01:00:01.139 --> 01:00:02.519
 Of grace and humility

01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:03.639
 in kind of our new

01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:04.320
 understanding

01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:06.079
 of what a church

01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:07.079
 can look like.

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:08.279
 So in terms of

01:00:08.279 --> 01:00:09.219
 what it is,

01:00:09.259 --> 01:00:09.440
 right,

01:00:09.500 --> 01:00:10.619
 it's this idea

01:00:10.619 --> 01:00:11.480
 that we are all

01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:12.840
 sinners in need of grace.

01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:13.679
 We are all bearing

01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:14.380
 with one another.

01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:15.840
 It's not just the strong

01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:16.519
 helping the weak,

01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:17.940
 but we are all weak.

01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:19.219
 And in terms of

01:00:19.219 --> 01:00:20.579
 what gets in the way

01:00:20.579 --> 01:00:22.059
 of bearing with one another,

01:00:22.319 --> 01:00:22.679
 we've,

01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:23.799
 we've talked about this

01:00:23.799 --> 01:00:25.099
 throughout,

01:00:25.380 --> 01:00:25.579
 but,

01:00:25.699 --> 01:00:25.860
 you know,

01:00:25.900 --> 01:00:26.599
 one might be

01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:27.759
 being too quick

01:00:27.759 --> 01:00:28.860
 to share truths,

01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:29.400
 quote unquote.

01:00:29.980 --> 01:00:30.639
 And so a good

01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:32.180
 kind of litmus test

01:00:32.180 --> 01:00:32.559
 might be,

01:00:32.619 --> 01:00:32.780
 you know,

01:00:32.820 --> 01:00:33.240
 if some,

01:00:33.539 --> 01:00:34.720
 if you end up

01:00:34.720 --> 01:00:35.300
 saying,

01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:35.760
 you know,

01:00:35.780 --> 01:00:35.940
 well,

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:36.420
 I'm,

01:00:36.500 --> 01:00:37.519
 I'm just being honest,

01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:37.740
 right?

01:00:37.740 --> 01:00:38.880
 That's usually a good sign

01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:40.300
 that,

01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:40.820
 you know,

01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:42.180
 maybe there are other ways

01:00:42.180 --> 01:00:42.539
 to,

01:00:42.539 --> 01:00:43.780
 to have shared that.

01:00:44.940 --> 01:00:45.300
 And,

01:00:45.380 --> 01:00:45.880
 and I think,

01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:46.260
 you know,

01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:46.920
 somebody had asked,

01:00:47.019 --> 01:00:47.119
 you know,

01:00:47.160 --> 01:00:47.280
 well,

01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:47.740
 how do I know

01:00:47.740 --> 01:00:48.300
 what the right thing

01:00:48.300 --> 01:00:48.840
 to say is?

01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:48.960
 And,

01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:49.880
 and I think sometimes

01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:50.460
 we don't know

01:00:50.460 --> 01:00:51.019
 what the right thing

01:00:51.019 --> 01:00:51.980
 to say and it's okay

01:00:51.980 --> 01:00:52.380
 to say,

01:00:52.460 --> 01:00:52.680
 you know,

01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:53.360
 well,

01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:53.820
 you know,

01:00:53.860 --> 01:00:54.900
 what you're sharing

01:00:54.900 --> 01:00:56.440
 brings to mind

01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:57.039
 X,

01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:57.240
 Y,

01:00:57.260 --> 01:00:57.720
 and Z,

01:00:57.719 --> 01:00:59.259
 either that I've

01:00:59.259 --> 01:00:59.639
 walked through

01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:00.019
 or that,

01:01:00.099 --> 01:01:00.339
 you know,

01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:01.159
 from scripture

01:01:01.159 --> 01:01:03.379
 and then asking at the end,

01:01:03.439 --> 01:01:03.539
 like,

01:01:03.579 --> 01:01:04.319
 was that helpful

01:01:04.319 --> 01:01:05.659
 or how did that land?

01:01:06.139 --> 01:01:06.319
 Like,

01:01:06.339 --> 01:01:07.259
 how was that received

01:01:07.259 --> 01:01:07.659
 for you?

01:01:07.699 --> 01:01:07.859
 Right.

01:01:07.879 --> 01:01:08.439
 And I guess that,

01:01:08.539 --> 01:01:11.299
 that is also a tricky thing

01:01:11.299 --> 01:01:13.099
 because somebody might say

01:01:13.099 --> 01:01:14.279
 that was not helpful at all

01:01:14.279 --> 01:01:14.659
 or like,

01:01:14.699 --> 01:01:15.099
 I can't,

01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:15.239
 you know,

01:01:15.279 --> 01:01:16.199
 I know that intellectually,

01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:17.039
 but I can't,

01:01:17.319 --> 01:01:18.019
 I'm not in a place

01:01:18.019 --> 01:01:18.939
 where I can receive that

01:01:18.939 --> 01:01:19.419
 right now.

01:01:19.859 --> 01:01:20.639
 But not,

01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:22.419
 but being willing to ask,

01:01:22.419 --> 01:01:22.599
 like,

01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:23.579
 what did you think of

01:01:23.579 --> 01:01:24.980
 that thing that I just shared?

01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:27.699
 I think we also,

01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:28.459
 we also worry

01:01:28.459 --> 01:01:29.599
 that when we bear

01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:30.359
 with one another

01:01:30.359 --> 01:01:32.819
 that we might,

01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:33.319
 like,

01:01:33.379 --> 01:01:34.239
 in trying to understand

01:01:34.239 --> 01:01:35.039
 their emotions,

01:01:35.699 --> 01:01:37.039
 we might be

01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:41.279
 validating poor life choices

01:01:41.279 --> 01:01:41.839
 sometimes,

01:01:41.959 --> 01:01:42.139
 right?

01:01:42.199 --> 01:01:42.579
 And so,

01:01:42.980 --> 01:01:43.879
 Elena and I had talked

01:01:43.879 --> 01:01:44.659
 about this vignette

01:01:44.659 --> 01:01:45.619
 of somebody who has

01:01:45.619 --> 01:01:48.459
 really strong anxiety

01:01:48.459 --> 01:01:49.399
 and as a result

01:01:49.399 --> 01:01:49.939
 they're kind of,

01:01:50.339 --> 01:01:50.519
 you know,

01:01:50.559 --> 01:01:50.980
 and they don't want

01:01:50.980 --> 01:01:51.659
 to seek treatment

01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:52.819
 and so they're just

01:01:52.819 --> 01:01:53.359
 kind of managing

01:01:53.359 --> 01:01:54.139
 on their own

01:01:54.139 --> 01:01:55.039
 and then they end up

01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:55.799
 self-medicating

01:01:55.799 --> 01:01:56.579
 with alcohol,

01:01:56.959 --> 01:01:57.159
 right?

01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:58.099
 And so we worry

01:01:58.099 --> 01:01:58.859
 sometimes if we're

01:01:58.859 --> 01:02:00.239
 not experiencing that,

01:02:00.339 --> 01:02:00.480
 like,

01:02:00.839 --> 01:02:01.000
 you know,

01:02:01.019 --> 01:02:01.480
 if I'm trying

01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:01.920
 to understand

01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:02.879
 your experience

01:02:02.879 --> 01:02:05.659
 of what you're

01:02:05.659 --> 01:02:06.259
 going through,

01:02:06.319 --> 01:02:07.159
 am I actually,

01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:09.299
 you know,

01:02:09.359 --> 01:02:10.199
 allowing you

01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:10.980
 to make these

01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:12.019
 kind of self-destructive

01:02:12.019 --> 01:02:12.559
 choices?

01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:13.420
 Should I just

01:02:13.420 --> 01:02:14.379
 kind of cut it off

01:02:14.379 --> 01:02:15.039
 quickly and say

01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:15.699
 stop drinking,

01:02:15.879 --> 01:02:16.019
 right?

01:02:16.099 --> 01:02:16.239
 Well,

01:02:16.319 --> 01:02:16.980
 and one,

01:02:17.099 --> 01:02:17.179
 like,

01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:17.559
 that's probably

01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:18.199
 not going to

01:02:18.199 --> 01:02:18.920
 go over well.

01:02:20.019 --> 01:02:20.619
 But I think

01:02:20.619 --> 01:02:21.219
 there's a difference

01:02:21.219 --> 01:02:21.859
 between saying,

01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:22.099
 like,

01:02:22.379 --> 01:02:23.039
 stop drinking,

01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:24.039
 it's so bad for you,

01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:24.399
 you're going to

01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:24.940
 kill yourself

01:02:24.940 --> 01:02:25.460
 versus,

01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:26.420
 you know,

01:02:27.099 --> 01:02:28.240
 it must be so hard

01:02:28.240 --> 01:02:29.160
 to be so anxious

01:02:29.160 --> 01:02:31.800
 that any sort

01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:32.400
 of escape

01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:36.260
 is tantalizing

01:02:36.260 --> 01:02:37.099
 in some way,

01:02:37.180 --> 01:02:37.360
 right?

01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:37.579
 Like,

01:02:37.579 --> 01:02:38.200
 I don't know

01:02:38.200 --> 01:02:38.980
 what it feels like

01:02:38.980 --> 01:02:40.840
 to have such a hard

01:02:40.840 --> 01:02:41.400
 time sitting,

01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:42.039
 you know,

01:02:42.619 --> 01:02:43.539
 sitting alone

01:02:43.539 --> 01:02:44.139
 with my thoughts

01:02:44.139 --> 01:02:44.920
 or going out

01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:46.260
 that I feel like

01:02:46.260 --> 01:02:46.900
 I have to turn

01:02:46.900 --> 01:02:47.360
 to something

01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:48.019
 to numb

01:02:48.019 --> 01:02:49.059
 my experience

01:02:49.059 --> 01:02:50.000
 and,

01:02:50.139 --> 01:02:50.299
 you know,

01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:50.860
 what is that

01:02:50.860 --> 01:02:51.460
 like for you,

01:02:51.500 --> 01:02:51.679
 right?

01:02:51.759 --> 01:02:52.340
 And so I think

01:02:52.340 --> 01:02:53.860
 we don't want

01:02:53.860 --> 01:02:54.639
 to lose the truth

01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:54.960
 part,

01:02:55.059 --> 01:02:55.699
 but we also

01:02:55.699 --> 01:02:57.500
 can sit with

01:02:57.500 --> 01:02:58.099
 somebody in the

01:02:58.099 --> 01:02:58.659
 messiness of

01:02:58.659 --> 01:02:59.239
 their feelings

01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:00.619
 and try to

01:03:00.619 --> 01:03:01.659
 understand how

01:03:01.659 --> 01:03:02.079
 they're making

01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:02.599
 these choices

01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:04.019
 that they are

01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:04.340
 without,

01:03:04.340 --> 01:03:05.619
 you know,

01:03:05.619 --> 01:03:05.840
 saying,

01:03:05.980 --> 01:03:06.019
 like,

01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:06.199
 oh,

01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:06.380
 well,

01:03:06.380 --> 01:03:06.940
 everything you're

01:03:06.940 --> 01:03:08.239
 doing choice-wise

01:03:08.239 --> 01:03:08.840
 is okay.

01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:11.739
 And I,

01:03:11.860 --> 01:03:12.099
 yeah,

01:03:12.219 --> 01:03:13.159
 and we've also

01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:13.920
 kind of mentioned

01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:14.400
 this before,

01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:14.759
 but I think

01:03:14.759 --> 01:03:15.360
 sometimes it's

01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:16.320
 hard to sit

01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:17.159
 with the messiness

01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:17.860
 if we're,

01:03:17.860 --> 01:03:18.900
 we,

01:03:19.140 --> 01:03:19.300
 you know,

01:03:19.340 --> 01:03:19.780
 by nature,

01:03:19.860 --> 01:03:20.400
 we really want

01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:21.039
 to be helpful,

01:03:21.260 --> 01:03:21.360
 right?

01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:22.059
 And that's a good

01:03:22.059 --> 01:03:22.500
 thing,

01:03:22.579 --> 01:03:23.140
 but I think

01:03:23.140 --> 01:03:23.660
 sometimes we

01:03:23.660 --> 01:03:24.340
 kind of treat

01:03:24.340 --> 01:03:25.960
 ministry to

01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:26.460
 each other

01:03:26.460 --> 01:03:26.900
 as kind of

01:03:26.900 --> 01:03:27.720
 like a deer

01:03:27.720 --> 01:03:28.340
 hunting thing,

01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:28.500
 right?

01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:28.840
 We're like,

01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:29.160
 bam,

01:03:29.260 --> 01:03:29.860
 we got it,

01:03:29.900 --> 01:03:30.059
 like,

01:03:30.099 --> 01:03:30.519
 we're done,

01:03:30.700 --> 01:03:31.360
 you know?

01:03:31.740 --> 01:03:32.320
 But I think

01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:32.800
 that there's

01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:33.900
 this idea

01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:34.200
 of,

01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:34.360
 like,

01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:34.599
 you know,

01:03:34.680 --> 01:03:35.099
 you have

01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:37.360
 multiple chances.

01:03:37.740 --> 01:03:38.280
 It will require

01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:38.780
 a regular

01:03:38.780 --> 01:03:39.599
 conversation,

01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:40.559
 and if something

01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:41.180
 doesn't land,

01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:41.900
 you have another

01:03:41.900 --> 01:03:42.920
 opportunity as long

01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:43.360
 as you're in a

01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:44.240
 regular relationship

01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:45.180
 with that person.

01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:46.079
 And we think

01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:46.400
 about,

01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:46.680
 you know,

01:03:46.680 --> 01:03:47.280
 the relationship

01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:47.760
 with our

01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:48.120
 children,

01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:49.160
 that it's not,

01:03:49.240 --> 01:03:49.360
 you know,

01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:50.100
 a good parent

01:03:50.100 --> 01:03:50.700
 isn't one

01:03:50.700 --> 01:03:50.900
 that,

01:03:51.020 --> 01:03:51.080
 like,

01:03:51.120 --> 01:03:51.920
 never messes

01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:52.580
 up and never

01:03:52.580 --> 01:03:53.480
 has any ruptures,

01:03:53.860 --> 01:03:54.020
 right?

01:03:54.060 --> 01:03:54.420
 Because that's

01:03:54.420 --> 01:03:54.840
 impossible,

01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:56.200
 but are we

01:03:56.200 --> 01:03:56.940
 able to repair

01:03:56.940 --> 01:03:57.500
 that well?

01:03:57.580 --> 01:03:58.140
 Are we able

01:03:58.140 --> 01:03:58.920
 to be humble

01:03:58.920 --> 01:03:59.580
 and seek

01:03:59.580 --> 01:04:00.020
 forgiveness

01:04:00.020 --> 01:04:01.060
 when things

01:04:01.060 --> 01:04:01.380
 that we've

01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:01.640
 said have

01:04:01.640 --> 01:04:02.060
 been hurtful

01:04:02.060 --> 01:04:02.740
 to the person

01:04:02.740 --> 01:04:03.660
 who's struggling?

01:04:05.580 --> 01:04:05.980
 So,

01:04:06.500 --> 01:04:06.780
 you know,

01:04:07.100 --> 01:04:07.740
 not letting,

01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:08.360
 just wanting

01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:09.080
 to fix the

01:04:09.080 --> 01:04:09.620
 problem get

01:04:09.620 --> 01:04:09.980
 in the way

01:04:09.980 --> 01:04:10.520
 of actually

01:04:10.520 --> 01:04:11.620
 being helpful.

01:04:12.620 --> 01:04:13.640
 In terms

01:04:13.640 --> 01:04:14.800
 of ways

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:15.880
 that help

01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:16.300
 us,

01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:16.680
 like,

01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:17.460
 promote

01:04:17.460 --> 01:04:18.139
 grace and

01:04:18.139 --> 01:04:18.579
 humility

01:04:18.579 --> 01:04:19.159
 and bearing

01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:19.699
 with one

01:04:19.699 --> 01:04:20.119
 another,

01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:22.539
 I think

01:04:22.539 --> 01:04:23.440
 we had talked

01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.259
 about a couple

01:04:24.259 --> 01:04:24.599
 of different

01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:25.039
 categories.

01:04:25.179 --> 01:04:25.739
 So one is

01:04:25.739 --> 01:04:26.199
 something that

01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:26.559
 y'all have

01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:26.839
 mentioned,

01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:27.039
 right,

01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:27.359
 which is

01:04:27.359 --> 01:04:28.639
 practical needs.

01:04:28.739 --> 01:04:29.119
 And there's a

01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:29.539
 verse in

01:04:29.539 --> 01:04:30.179
 James 2

01:04:30.179 --> 01:04:31.399
 about,

01:04:31.400 --> 01:04:32.139
 suppose a

01:04:32.139 --> 01:04:32.539
 brother or

01:04:32.539 --> 01:04:33.240
 sister is

01:04:33.240 --> 01:04:34.099
 without clothes

01:04:34.099 --> 01:04:34.619
 and daily

01:04:34.619 --> 01:04:35.039
 food.

01:04:35.420 --> 01:04:35.980
 If one of

01:04:35.980 --> 01:04:36.320
 you says

01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:36.720
 to them,

01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:37.200
 go in

01:04:37.200 --> 01:04:37.539
 peace,

01:04:37.660 --> 01:04:38.180
 keep warm

01:04:38.180 --> 01:04:38.599
 and well

01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:38.880
 fed,

01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:39.780
 but does

01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:40.460
 nothing about

01:04:40.460 --> 01:04:41.059
 their physical

01:04:41.059 --> 01:04:41.500
 needs,

01:04:41.619 --> 01:04:42.079
 what good

01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:42.519
 is that?

01:04:42.980 --> 01:04:43.280
 And we've

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:43.639
 talked about

01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:44.119
 this through

01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:44.500
 the Sunday

01:04:44.500 --> 01:04:44.740
 school,

01:04:44.860 --> 01:04:45.019
 you know,

01:04:45.059 --> 01:04:45.760
 but the

01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:46.340
 compassion

01:04:46.340 --> 01:04:47.539
 that we

01:04:47.539 --> 01:04:48.400
 might more

01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:49.039
 instinctively

01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:49.539
 show for

01:04:49.539 --> 01:04:49.960
 people who

01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:50.240
 have had

01:04:50.240 --> 01:04:50.940
 heart attacks

01:04:50.940 --> 01:04:51.579
 or strokes,

01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:51.840
 right,

01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:52.500
 how does

01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:53.119
 that translate

01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:53.720
 into people

01:04:53.720 --> 01:04:54.000
 who are

01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:54.300
 struggling

01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:55.519
 with depression

01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:56.579
 and anxiety?

01:04:57.139 --> 01:04:57.279
 And so,

01:04:57.360 --> 01:04:57.519
 you know,

01:04:57.539 --> 01:04:58.539
 something like

01:04:58.539 --> 01:04:59.059
 diabetes,

01:04:59.279 --> 01:04:59.420
 right,

01:04:59.460 --> 01:04:59.860
 if you're

01:04:59.860 --> 01:05:00.460
 not making

01:05:00.460 --> 01:05:01.000
 good,

01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:01.920
 you know,

01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:02.239
 there's the

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:02.480
 genetic

01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:03.239
 predisposition,

01:05:03.500 --> 01:05:05.619
 there's diet,

01:05:06.059 --> 01:05:06.579
 and so if

01:05:06.579 --> 01:05:07.519
 somebody lands

01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:08.059
 in the hospital

01:05:08.059 --> 01:05:08.440
 for, like,

01:05:08.460 --> 01:05:08.940
 their diabetes

01:05:08.940 --> 01:05:09.400
 going out of

01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:09.699
 control,

01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:10.539
 we don't just

01:05:10.539 --> 01:05:10.900
 show up at

01:05:10.900 --> 01:05:11.299
 the hospital

01:05:11.299 --> 01:05:11.579
 and say,

01:05:11.699 --> 01:05:11.880
 like, well,

01:05:11.900 --> 01:05:12.159
 you should

01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:12.519
 have lowered

01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:12.920
 your blood

01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:13.159
 sugar,

01:05:13.279 --> 01:05:13.460
 right?

01:05:13.460 --> 01:05:14.259
 We kind of

01:05:14.259 --> 01:05:14.900
 recognize that

01:05:14.900 --> 01:05:15.380
 they're at a

01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:16.259
 place where

01:05:16.259 --> 01:05:16.679
 they just need

01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:17.059
 to receive

01:05:17.059 --> 01:05:17.539
 support,

01:05:17.699 --> 01:05:17.980
 and maybe

01:05:17.980 --> 01:05:18.579
 later on,

01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:19.400
 part of their

01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:19.860
 work towards

01:05:19.860 --> 01:05:20.460
 recovery and

01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:20.940
 maintaining a

01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:21.519
 healthy lifestyle

01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:22.259
 includes,

01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:22.980
 again,

01:05:23.059 --> 01:05:23.440
 some of these

01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:23.819
 truths,

01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:24.539
 but is this

01:05:24.539 --> 01:05:25.220
 the right time

01:05:25.220 --> 01:05:25.880
 and place to

01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:26.559
 share that with

01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:26.800
 them?

01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:27.820
 And I think

01:05:27.820 --> 01:05:29.039
 it's, you know,

01:05:29.080 --> 01:05:29.519
 I think mental

01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:29.900
 illness is

01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:30.580
 slightly different

01:05:30.580 --> 01:05:31.320
 than kind of

01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:31.980
 like breast

01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:32.940
 cancer or

01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:33.840
 heart disease

01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:34.360
 because there

01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:34.620
 are no,

01:05:34.620 --> 01:05:34.840
 like,

01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:35.700
 5Ks,

01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.059
 there are no

01:05:36.059 --> 01:05:36.400
 galas,

01:05:36.460 --> 01:05:36.600
 well,

01:05:36.660 --> 01:05:36.940
 maybe there

01:05:36.940 --> 01:05:37.039
 are,

01:05:37.100 --> 01:05:37.480
 but it's not

01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:37.780
 as common,

01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:38.559
 like 5Ks and

01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:38.980
 galas and

01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:39.559
 celebrations

01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:40.840
 to fundraise for

01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:41.200
 that because

01:05:41.200 --> 01:05:42.640
 the people who

01:05:42.640 --> 01:05:44.800
 are struggling

01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:45.400
 with it are

01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:46.100
 often, you know,

01:05:46.140 --> 01:05:46.960
 don't have the

01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:48.300
 energy to

01:05:48.300 --> 01:05:49.059
 organize those

01:05:49.059 --> 01:05:49.600
 sorts of things,

01:05:49.660 --> 01:05:49.960
 and their

01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:50.780
 family members

01:05:50.780 --> 01:05:51.660
 may also not

01:05:51.660 --> 01:05:52.240
 have the energy

01:05:52.240 --> 01:05:52.940
 to do that,

01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:53.640
 and so there's a

01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:54.199
 way, again,

01:05:54.259 --> 01:05:55.139
 in which kind

01:05:55.139 --> 01:05:55.679
 of the shame

01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:56.319
 and isolation

01:05:56.319 --> 01:05:56.819
 of mental

01:05:56.819 --> 01:05:57.400
 illness can

01:05:57.400 --> 01:05:58.019
 get in the

01:05:58.019 --> 01:05:59.159
 way of the

01:05:59.159 --> 01:05:59.960
 visibility of

01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:01.619
 how we are

01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:02.319
 able to

01:06:02.319 --> 01:06:02.799
 support.

01:06:04.859 --> 01:06:05.519
 And so in

01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:06.099
 terms of other

01:06:06.099 --> 01:06:06.759
 practical needs,

01:06:06.799 --> 01:06:07.239
 I love some of

01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:07.879
 the examples that

01:06:07.879 --> 01:06:08.379
 you all shared,

01:06:08.500 --> 01:06:08.859
 right, like,

01:06:08.940 --> 01:06:09.839
 is it child

01:06:09.839 --> 01:06:10.119
 care?

01:06:10.319 --> 01:06:11.279
 So, you know,

01:06:11.400 --> 01:06:12.359
 you can go out

01:06:12.359 --> 01:06:13.199
 on a date or

01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:14.239
 you can go to

01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:14.900
 therapy.

01:06:15.420 --> 01:06:16.339
 Is it somebody

01:06:16.339 --> 01:06:17.059
 who's so anxious

01:06:17.059 --> 01:06:17.619
 they have a hard

01:06:17.619 --> 01:06:18.119
 time going to

01:06:18.119 --> 01:06:18.659
 small group or

01:06:18.659 --> 01:06:19.400
 showing up in

01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:19.839
 church, right?

01:06:19.879 --> 01:06:20.940
 Do we drive that

01:06:20.940 --> 01:06:21.619
 person to church?

01:06:21.699 --> 01:06:22.339
 Do we sit with

01:06:22.339 --> 01:06:22.719
 them so they

01:06:22.719 --> 01:06:23.219
 don't have to

01:06:23.219 --> 01:06:23.819
 feel alone?

01:06:24.919 --> 01:06:26.480
 It might look

01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:26.919
 like helping

01:06:26.919 --> 01:06:27.459
 them navigate

01:06:27.459 --> 01:06:28.359
 treatment, which

01:06:28.359 --> 01:06:28.819
 we talked about

01:06:28.819 --> 01:06:29.319
 last week, can

01:06:29.319 --> 01:06:30.079
 be really tricky.

01:06:30.619 --> 01:06:32.059
 So can we

01:06:32.059 --> 01:06:32.599
 help them find

01:06:32.599 --> 01:06:33.359
 a therapist when

01:06:33.359 --> 01:06:33.939
 they don't have

01:06:33.939 --> 01:06:34.639
 enough energy to

01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:35.079
 pick up the

01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:35.319
 phone?

01:06:37.319 --> 01:06:38.439
 Can we, and

01:06:38.439 --> 01:06:39.039
 then in terms

01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:41.799
 of presence,

01:06:41.959 --> 01:06:42.759
 right, are we

01:06:42.759 --> 01:06:43.339
 checking in

01:06:43.339 --> 01:06:43.779
 regularly?

01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:44.599
 Are we texting?

01:06:44.779 --> 01:06:45.399
 Are we calling?

01:06:47.319 --> 01:06:48.119
 There's spiritual

01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:48.980
 help, too, in

01:06:48.980 --> 01:06:49.559
 terms of, you

01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:50.219
 know, somebody who

01:06:50.219 --> 01:06:51.159
 might be so

01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:52.440
 incapacitated by

01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:52.980
 their depression

01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:53.619
 that they can't

01:06:53.619 --> 01:06:54.239
 open the Bible?

01:06:54.359 --> 01:06:54.980
 So do we sit

01:06:54.980 --> 01:06:56.259
 alongside them and

01:06:56.259 --> 01:06:57.519
 choose a song to

01:06:57.519 --> 01:06:58.519
 read together or a

01:06:58.519 --> 01:06:59.239
 song to sing

01:06:59.239 --> 01:06:59.619
 together?

01:07:00.359 --> 01:07:01.239
 Can we pray with

01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:01.659
 them when they

01:07:01.659 --> 01:07:03.059
 don't have words to

01:07:03.059 --> 01:07:03.940
 be able to offer

01:07:03.940 --> 01:07:04.480
 the Lord?

01:07:06.440 --> 01:07:06.940
 And I think we

01:07:06.940 --> 01:07:07.500
 just want to, you

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:09.319
 know, if you're not

01:07:09.319 --> 01:07:09.940
 in the mental health

01:07:09.940 --> 01:07:10.739
 field or if you

01:07:10.739 --> 01:07:11.199
 haven't struggled

01:07:11.199 --> 01:07:11.859
 with yourself, I

01:07:11.859 --> 01:07:12.339
 think that there's

01:07:12.339 --> 01:07:13.239
 some, like, mental

01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:13.859
 illness can feel

01:07:13.859 --> 01:07:16.159
 really mystifying and

01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:17.319
 very other.

01:07:17.859 --> 01:07:18.699
 But I think, you

01:07:18.699 --> 01:07:19.159
 know, so then it's

01:07:19.159 --> 01:07:20.119
 sometimes hard as a

01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:20.879
 person outside of

01:07:20.879 --> 01:07:21.480
 it to be, like,

01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:24.879
 how can I help in

01:07:24.879 --> 01:07:25.299
 this instance?

01:07:25.359 --> 01:07:26.039
 I don't even know

01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:26.759
 the first thing about

01:07:26.759 --> 01:07:27.079
 it, right?

01:07:27.099 --> 01:07:29.420
 And I think we, as

01:07:29.420 --> 01:07:30.159
 like professionals,

01:07:30.299 --> 01:07:30.799
 would say, like, there

01:07:30.799 --> 01:07:31.799
 are, like, a lot of

01:07:31.799 --> 01:07:32.759
 boundaries and limits

01:07:32.759 --> 01:07:33.859
 to what we can do,

01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:34.079
 right?

01:07:34.099 --> 01:07:35.079
 Like, we can't spend

01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:37.179
 a whole day with one

01:07:37.179 --> 01:07:38.960
 person, but a friend

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:39.359
 can.

01:07:39.539 --> 01:07:40.899
 We can't, you know,

01:07:41.759 --> 01:07:43.119
 offer prayer unless

01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:44.279
 it, well, yeah, we

01:07:44.279 --> 01:07:45.059
 generally don't offer

01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:45.879
 prayer, right, but a

01:07:45.879 --> 01:07:46.899
 friend can, right?

01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:47.980
 And we don't text to

01:07:47.980 --> 01:07:48.399
 check in.

01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:49.240
 So I think there's

01:07:49.240 --> 01:07:50.000
 a lot about

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:51.380
 friendship itself that

01:07:51.380 --> 01:07:51.780
 you all have

01:07:51.780 --> 01:07:53.500
 mentioned of just

01:07:53.500 --> 01:07:54.940
 being with that is

01:07:54.940 --> 01:07:56.079
 really important and

01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:57.240
 to not minimize that

01:07:57.240 --> 01:07:57.820
 because that is

01:07:57.820 --> 01:07:58.480
 something that

01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:00.980
 professionals can't

01:08:00.980 --> 01:08:01.240
 do.

01:08:02.500 --> 01:08:03.200
 And I think there's

01:08:03.200 --> 01:08:03.619
 kind of, like, the

01:08:03.619 --> 01:08:05.720
 over, like, well,

01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:06.660
 anyways, I think that

01:08:06.660 --> 01:08:07.300
 sometimes, yeah,

01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:08.680
 relationships in

01:08:08.680 --> 01:08:09.380
 general, trusting

01:08:09.380 --> 01:08:10.300
 relationships, like

01:08:10.300 --> 01:08:11.420
 therapy is one form

01:08:11.420 --> 01:08:11.860
 of a trusting

01:08:11.860 --> 01:08:13.039
 relationship, but you

01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:13.700
 need, like, a whole

01:08:13.700 --> 01:08:15.160
 network of them in

01:08:15.160 --> 01:08:15.880
 order to really

01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:16.300
 thrive.

01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:18.940
 And then I think

01:08:18.940 --> 01:08:21.199
 the last thing is

01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:22.640
 that, you know, as

01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:23.420
 y'all have kind of

01:08:23.420 --> 01:08:23.760
 shared your

01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:24.680
 experiences, right, that

01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:25.500
 like when one person

01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:26.239
 is struggling, it

01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:27.600
 really takes a whole

01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:28.760
 family to come around

01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:29.079
 them.

01:08:29.079 --> 01:08:29.800
 And it's not just

01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:31.180
 like, oh, here's this

01:08:31.180 --> 01:08:31.940
 person who's struggling,

01:08:32.140 --> 01:08:33.699
 I'm going to be this

01:08:33.699 --> 01:08:34.820
 one person who saves

01:08:34.820 --> 01:08:35.180
 them, right?

01:08:35.180 --> 01:08:35.860
 Like, we have to also

01:08:35.860 --> 01:08:36.779
 be mindful of our

01:08:36.779 --> 01:08:38.380
 messiah complex and

01:08:38.380 --> 01:08:39.520
 really invite other

01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:40.940
 people, widen that

01:08:40.940 --> 01:08:42.020
 circle of, like,

01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:43.180
 support networks for

01:08:43.180 --> 01:08:43.400
 them.

01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:44.500
 We're inviting other

01:08:44.500 --> 01:08:45.339
 people to walk with

01:08:45.339 --> 01:08:45.659
 them, right?

01:08:45.679 --> 01:08:46.359
 And sometimes it may

01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:47.359
 be that the person

01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:47.859
 who's struggling with

01:08:47.859 --> 01:08:48.879
 mental illness can't

01:08:48.879 --> 01:08:50.159
 get out the door, you

01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:50.839
 know, doesn't show up

01:08:50.839 --> 01:08:53.000
 like, and walking with

01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:54.479
 that person may be

01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:55.239
 walking with a family

01:08:55.239 --> 01:08:57.279
 member who is, you

01:08:57.279 --> 01:08:57.719
 know, kind of that

01:08:57.719 --> 01:08:58.519
 direct caregiver.

01:08:59.219 --> 01:09:00.839
 So just kind of

01:09:00.839 --> 01:09:02.839
 thinking about ways

01:09:02.839 --> 01:09:03.819
 that we can kind of

01:09:03.819 --> 01:09:04.799
 practically and

01:09:04.799 --> 01:09:06.279
 presence-wise support

01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:06.939
 people who are

01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:07.339
 struggling.

01:09:07.340 --> 01:09:11.760
 So we kind of ran

01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:12.480
 through that last

01:09:12.480 --> 01:09:12.819
 section.

01:09:14.079 --> 01:09:15.119
 But any, like,

01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:16.380
 thoughts, comments,

01:09:16.900 --> 01:09:17.840
 questions about what

01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:18.860
 it looks like to bear

01:09:18.860 --> 01:09:20.360
 with, what's made it

01:09:20.360 --> 01:09:21.500
 harder or easier,

01:09:21.699 --> 01:09:22.760
 suggestions and what

01:09:22.760 --> 01:09:23.640
 we can do in church?

01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:25.199
 Uh-huh?

01:09:25.659 --> 01:09:26.319
 I thought something

01:09:26.319 --> 01:09:27.039
 that was really

01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:29.100
 insightful to me is

01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:30.279
 the, like, throughout

01:09:30.279 --> 01:09:31.039
 this whole class, is

01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:32.739
 just being willing to

01:09:32.739 --> 01:09:33.520
 ask questions.

01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:35.260
 I think that I'm

01:09:35.260 --> 01:09:35.940
 really nervous to

01:09:35.940 --> 01:09:36.659
 ask people questions

01:09:36.659 --> 01:09:37.399
 because I don't want

01:09:37.399 --> 01:09:38.139
 them to be offended

01:09:38.139 --> 01:09:39.539
 by me asking and,

01:09:39.539 --> 01:09:41.099
 like, not asking so

01:09:41.099 --> 01:09:41.760
 that I can, like,

01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:43.159
 you know, understand

01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:44.000
 and, like, tell all

01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:44.739
 these people or,

01:09:44.739 --> 01:09:45.639
 or, you know, like,

01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:47.399
 but it's truly that I

01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:48.180
 can understand and

01:09:48.180 --> 01:09:49.559
 help or just listen.

01:09:49.979 --> 01:09:51.680
 So I'm still kind of

01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:52.399
 perplexed by that,

01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:53.180
 like, how do we know

01:09:53.180 --> 01:09:54.260
 what questions do I ask?

01:09:54.260 --> 01:09:55.139
 And I know a lot of

01:09:55.139 --> 01:09:55.979
 that in the Holy Spirit.

01:09:56.500 --> 01:09:57.159
 And even just, like,

01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:58.000
 reading the situation,

01:09:58.119 --> 01:09:59.139
 but it is still kind of

01:09:59.139 --> 01:10:00.039
 unnerving to know,

01:10:00.059 --> 01:10:03.559
 like, how much is too

01:10:03.559 --> 01:10:05.079
 much, and especially

01:10:05.079 --> 01:10:05.960
 with different people

01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:06.800
 experiencing different

01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:08.380
 types of mental illness,

01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:09.340
 like, which ones are,

01:10:10.180 --> 01:10:10.539
 I don't know.

01:10:10.739 --> 01:10:11.760
 But that was helpful

01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:12.500
 to just know that

01:10:12.500 --> 01:10:13.500
 questions are welcome.

01:10:13.699 --> 01:10:13.920
 I guess.

01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:15.399
 Yeah.

01:10:16.699 --> 01:10:17.020
 Yeah.

01:10:17.180 --> 01:10:18.020
 And sometimes it's

01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:18.920
 helpful to acknowledge,

01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:19.840
 like, I don't quite know

01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:21.020
 what to say or ask in

01:10:21.020 --> 01:10:22.100
 the situation, so feel

01:10:22.100 --> 01:10:23.020
 free to let me know if

01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:24.060
 you don't want to talk

01:10:24.060 --> 01:10:25.260
 about it right now,

01:10:25.300 --> 01:10:25.420
 right?

01:10:25.420 --> 01:10:26.420
 Like, can you tell me

01:10:26.420 --> 01:10:28.579
 more about X, Y, and Z?

01:10:30.180 --> 01:10:30.539
 Yeah.

01:10:30.579 --> 01:10:31.180
 So I think just coming

01:10:31.180 --> 01:10:32.220
 from a place of curiosity

01:10:32.220 --> 01:10:34.240
 is usually pretty welcome.

01:10:34.400 --> 01:10:34.920
 And then people will

01:10:34.920 --> 01:10:35.440
 let you know, like,

01:10:35.500 --> 01:10:36.539
 no, don't ask me that.

01:10:37.320 --> 01:10:38.079
 I don't want to talk

01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:38.680
 about that right now.

01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:39.300
 That's going to, you

01:10:39.300 --> 01:10:40.100
 know, worsen my mental

01:10:40.100 --> 01:10:40.800
 health right now,

01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:41.860
 or something like that.

01:10:42.140 --> 01:10:42.740
 And sometimes even

01:10:42.740 --> 01:10:44.260
 asking, like, what do

01:10:44.260 --> 01:10:45.159
 you, and somebody

01:10:45.159 --> 01:10:45.960
 might not know,

01:10:46.060 --> 01:10:46.619
 which is okay,

01:10:46.659 --> 01:10:47.699
 but it's always not

01:10:47.699 --> 01:10:48.440
 bad to ask, like,

01:10:48.480 --> 01:10:49.420
 oh, what is the best

01:10:49.420 --> 01:10:51.039
 way for you to be

01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:51.480
 supported?

01:10:51.619 --> 01:10:52.079
 Like, do you need

01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:52.840
 someone to, like,

01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:56.060
 you know, be

01:10:56.060 --> 01:10:57.400
 distracted and go out

01:10:57.400 --> 01:10:58.020
 to fro-yo?

01:10:58.340 --> 01:10:59.119
 Do you need someone

01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:00.460
 to, you know,

01:11:00.539 --> 01:11:02.220
 stay on the phone

01:11:02.220 --> 01:11:02.460
 with you?

01:11:02.579 --> 01:11:02.720
 Yeah.

01:11:02.819 --> 01:11:03.500
 A lot of times

01:11:03.500 --> 01:11:04.220
 what somebody might

01:11:04.220 --> 01:11:05.319
 need might not be,

01:11:05.319 --> 01:11:06.739
 like, diving deep

01:11:06.739 --> 01:11:07.579
 into their trauma

01:11:07.579 --> 01:11:08.800
 per se, but rather,

01:11:09.019 --> 01:11:10.019
 like, it's never

01:11:10.019 --> 01:11:10.840
 bad to ask, like,

01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:11.380
 oh, do you need

01:11:11.380 --> 01:11:12.140
 to be distracted?

01:11:12.500 --> 01:11:12.899
 Do you want to

01:11:12.899 --> 01:11:13.659
 talk about it?

01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:14.420
 You know, and then

01:11:14.420 --> 01:11:15.800
 seeing if they have

01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:16.539
 an idea of, like,

01:11:16.579 --> 01:11:17.420
 what might be

01:11:17.420 --> 01:11:18.079
 most helpful.

01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:19.680
 You could just be

01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:20.840
 doing something else

01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:21.920
 and go out.

01:11:22.099 --> 01:11:22.399
 Yeah.

01:11:22.760 --> 01:11:23.760
 Like, what will be?

01:11:24.300 --> 01:11:24.699
 Yeah.

01:11:24.979 --> 01:11:25.519
 Having dinner

01:11:25.519 --> 01:11:26.599
 with friends and

01:11:26.599 --> 01:11:27.380
 who is not

01:11:27.380 --> 01:11:28.699
 conflict with your phone.

01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:29.599
 Yeah.

01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:30.099
 Yeah.

01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:30.599
 Absolutely.

01:11:30.899 --> 01:11:31.380
 I feel like those

01:11:31.380 --> 01:11:32.699
 things are, and that's

01:11:32.699 --> 01:11:33.680
 so much of what the

01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:35.899
 church can offer

01:11:35.899 --> 01:11:37.599
 that, like, a

01:11:37.599 --> 01:11:38.079
 therapist or

01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:38.899
 psychiatrist can't

01:11:38.899 --> 01:11:39.380
 offer, right?

01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:40.579
 Like, someone comes

01:11:40.579 --> 01:11:41.180
 to our office, we're

01:11:41.180 --> 01:11:42.239
 specifically there to

01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:43.960
 talk about things

01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:44.579
 that are hard.

01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:45.300
 We can't be like,

01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:45.939
 oh, let's go to

01:11:45.939 --> 01:11:46.939
 fro-yo, right?

01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:48.340
 But, like, that's,

01:11:48.460 --> 01:11:49.079
 I would love that.

01:11:49.239 --> 01:11:50.279
 You know, which

01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:50.899
 wouldn't be very

01:11:50.899 --> 01:11:52.000
 ethical, but that is

01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:52.840
 something that is

01:11:52.840 --> 01:11:53.659
 needed, like, just,

01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:54.720
 like, feeling normal,

01:11:54.899 --> 01:11:56.099
 spending time, having

01:11:56.099 --> 01:11:57.099
 presence, and I feel

01:11:57.099 --> 01:11:57.819
 like that's so much

01:11:57.819 --> 01:11:58.680
 of what the church

01:11:58.680 --> 01:11:59.700
 really can't

01:11:59.700 --> 01:11:59.960
 over.

01:11:59.960 --> 01:12:00.180
 It's so easy,

01:12:00.360 --> 01:12:01.600
 and I'm proud all

01:12:01.600 --> 01:12:02.200
 the time.

01:12:02.400 --> 01:12:03.320
 It's too overwhelming.

01:12:03.700 --> 01:12:06.840
 I mean, isn't there

01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:07.300
 a verse in

01:12:07.300 --> 01:12:08.400
 progress that's a

01:12:08.400 --> 01:12:09.079
 very hard,

01:12:09.240 --> 01:12:09.840
 do with the,

01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:11.800
 maybe the spirit

01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:12.220
 do with,

01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:13.220
 very hard,

01:12:13.280 --> 01:12:14.360
 do with the spirit?

01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:15.380
 I don't know, but,

01:12:15.440 --> 01:12:15.780
 um,

01:12:16.020 --> 01:12:16.980
 a joyful heart is

01:12:16.980 --> 01:12:17.539
 good medicine?

01:12:18.539 --> 01:12:19.440
 That's true,

01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:20.119
 and there's another

01:12:20.119 --> 01:12:20.300
 one.

01:12:21.560 --> 01:12:22.119
 I don't know.

01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:22.659
 I don't know.

01:12:22.659 --> 01:12:24.859
 Sorrow pushes the

01:12:24.859 --> 01:12:25.899
 spirit, or something

01:12:25.899 --> 01:12:26.239
 like that.

01:12:26.819 --> 01:12:27.420
 And I think there's

01:12:27.420 --> 01:12:28.239
 a balance, right?

01:12:28.380 --> 01:12:30.079
 Like, at times, we

01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:31.079
 might be in a place

01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:31.800
 where we're like,

01:12:32.300 --> 01:12:33.500
 all right, Carolyn,

01:12:33.579 --> 01:12:34.180
 I need to tell you

01:12:34.180 --> 01:12:35.239
 all about my sorrow

01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:36.039
 in life, right?

01:12:36.099 --> 01:12:36.819
 Like, and we, that

01:12:36.819 --> 01:12:37.920
 is necessary to do

01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:39.300
 sometimes, and there

01:12:39.300 --> 01:12:40.119
 might be times when

01:12:40.119 --> 01:12:41.260
 I'm like, poor

01:12:41.260 --> 01:12:41.899
 Carolyn, just because

01:12:41.899 --> 01:12:42.639
 I'm looking directly

01:12:42.639 --> 01:12:43.479
 at you, get all my

01:12:43.479 --> 01:12:43.720
 hand.

01:12:45.300 --> 01:12:46.519
 I'm like, yeah.

01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:47.539
 Then there might be

01:12:47.539 --> 01:12:48.119
 times where, like,

01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:49.399
 I've had such a

01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:50.579
 hard week, I just

01:12:50.579 --> 01:12:51.979
 need to watch Great

01:12:51.979 --> 01:12:53.079
 British Baking Show

01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:54.039
 for three hours,

01:12:54.140 --> 01:12:54.559
 you know?

01:12:54.680 --> 01:12:55.920
 And, like, there

01:12:55.920 --> 01:12:56.500
 might be different

01:12:56.500 --> 01:12:57.519
 things, and I think

01:12:57.519 --> 01:12:59.239
 within a friendship,

01:12:59.380 --> 01:13:00.819
 a balance is helpful

01:13:00.819 --> 01:13:03.119
 of, you know, what

01:13:03.119 --> 01:13:03.619
 we might need at

01:13:03.619 --> 01:13:04.260
 different times.

01:13:04.460 --> 01:13:04.579
 Yeah.

01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:05.519
 I think it's very

01:13:05.519 --> 01:13:06.340
 important, because

01:13:06.340 --> 01:13:07.599
 there's really no

01:13:07.599 --> 01:13:09.500
 one's, you know,

01:13:09.579 --> 01:13:10.380
 there's no one's

01:13:10.380 --> 01:13:11.180
 solution to the

01:13:11.180 --> 01:13:12.439
 problem.

01:13:12.599 --> 01:13:13.140
 It's a very

01:13:13.140 --> 01:13:13.939
 terrible problem.

01:13:14.119 --> 01:13:14.699
 I mean, I think it's

01:13:14.699 --> 01:13:16.720
 important to, you

01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:17.199
 know, have these

01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:17.939
 sessions, you

01:13:17.939 --> 01:13:18.859
 talk about these

01:13:18.859 --> 01:13:20.339
 things, and, you

01:13:20.339 --> 01:13:21.919
 know, one of

01:13:21.919 --> 01:13:22.819
 the things I have

01:13:22.819 --> 01:13:23.939
 a big proponent of

01:13:23.939 --> 01:13:24.479
 is that we can

01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:25.079
 learn from each

01:13:25.079 --> 01:13:26.319
 other, and that

01:13:26.319 --> 01:13:28.559
 people who have

01:13:28.559 --> 01:13:29.500
 actually suffering

01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:31.099
 from mental illness

01:13:31.099 --> 01:13:32.359
 have a lot to

01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:33.639
 offer, and that's

01:13:33.639 --> 01:13:34.460
 about what works

01:13:34.460 --> 01:13:35.000
 and what doesn't

01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:35.559
 work the same.

01:13:35.899 --> 01:13:36.779
 That's why I said,

01:13:36.879 --> 01:13:38.139
 you know, I think

01:13:38.139 --> 01:13:38.979
 support groups are

01:13:38.979 --> 01:13:41.179
 very important, and

01:13:41.179 --> 01:13:43.099
 you know, obviously

01:13:43.099 --> 01:13:43.739
 at the end of the

01:13:43.739 --> 01:13:45.359
 day, I mean, you

01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:47.199
 need medicine,

01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:48.699
 but don't deny

01:13:48.699 --> 01:13:49.199
 that either.

01:13:49.739 --> 01:13:49.920
 You know, so

01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:50.460
 you want to

01:13:50.460 --> 01:13:51.039
 remember that.

01:13:52.119 --> 01:13:52.960
 And the other

01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:54.319
 thing is that once,

01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:55.500
 you know, mental

01:13:55.500 --> 01:13:57.239
 illness is not a

01:13:57.239 --> 01:13:58.739
 all-house switch.

01:14:00.659 --> 01:14:02.840
 So, you know, a lot

01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:03.300
 of stuff they're

01:14:03.300 --> 01:14:04.079
 talking about is

01:14:04.079 --> 01:14:05.479
 actually the

01:14:05.479 --> 01:14:07.319
 lighter end.

01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:08.479
 of the time, but

01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:09.599
 there are people

01:14:09.599 --> 01:14:11.000
 who are at points

01:14:11.000 --> 01:14:12.399
 where we need to

01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:14.819
 get help, and we

01:14:14.819 --> 01:14:15.319
 need to really

01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:16.500
 emphasize that,

01:14:16.599 --> 01:14:17.939
 because one of the

01:14:17.939 --> 01:14:19.199
 things I find is

01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:20.439
 that when somebody

01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:23.000
 has anxiety, a

01:14:23.000 --> 01:14:23.819
 Christian, I have

01:14:23.819 --> 01:14:24.279
 a non-Christian

01:14:24.279 --> 01:14:25.000
 friend, you know,

01:14:25.059 --> 01:14:25.439
 one of the things

01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:26.059
 they say is, you

01:14:26.059 --> 01:14:26.659
 know, don't worry

01:14:26.659 --> 01:14:27.179
 about it, you're

01:14:27.179 --> 01:14:27.759
 still worsening,

01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:28.299
 you'll save it

01:14:28.299 --> 01:14:28.679
 that person.

01:14:29.819 --> 01:14:31.380
 When you say that,

01:14:31.460 --> 01:14:31.939
 you're kind of

01:14:31.939 --> 01:14:32.779
 slapping them in the

01:14:32.779 --> 01:14:33.819
 face, you're kind

01:14:33.819 --> 01:14:34.279
 of saying that,

01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:34.960
 you know, what

01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:35.619
 you're not, you

01:14:35.619 --> 01:14:36.079
 know, what your

01:14:36.079 --> 01:14:36.920
 feelings are real.

01:14:38.519 --> 01:14:39.679
 So, you know,

01:14:40.300 --> 01:14:43.239
 but again, it's a

01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:43.739
 spectrum.

01:14:44.059 --> 01:14:44.739
 I think it's very

01:14:44.739 --> 01:14:45.579
 important to really

01:14:45.579 --> 01:14:47.199
 remember that, and

01:14:47.199 --> 01:14:49.219
 we do need that

01:14:49.219 --> 01:14:50.679
 for professional

01:14:50.679 --> 01:14:51.719
 help, whether

01:14:51.719 --> 01:14:52.779
 medications or

01:14:52.779 --> 01:14:53.639
 therapy or

01:14:53.639 --> 01:14:54.759
 combination of

01:14:54.759 --> 01:14:55.460
 that.

01:14:56.979 --> 01:14:58.119
 So Bruce, I was

01:14:58.119 --> 01:14:58.719
 thinking of it,

01:14:58.800 --> 01:15:01.779
 1722, a cheerful

01:15:01.779 --> 01:15:02.500
 heart is good

01:15:02.500 --> 01:15:03.279
 medicine, but a

01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:03.899
 crush, they

01:15:03.899 --> 01:15:04.600
 recognize that

01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:04.979
 development.

01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:08.539
 Yeah, and

01:15:08.539 --> 01:15:09.399
 there's, it's

01:15:09.399 --> 01:15:11.479
 always good to, I

01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:12.239
 mean, maybe you

01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:12.859
 don't have to be so

01:15:12.859 --> 01:15:13.699
 explicit to say, oh,

01:15:13.720 --> 01:15:14.140
 do you want me to

01:15:14.140 --> 01:15:14.960
 be cheerful or

01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:15.380
 crushed?

01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:16.140
 But, you know,

01:15:16.340 --> 01:15:17.279
 sometimes it's good

01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:19.539
 to kind of, even

01:15:19.539 --> 01:15:20.560
 day by day or

01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:21.239
 within a single

01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:22.460
 day, the needs of

01:15:22.460 --> 01:15:22.979
 someone with a

01:15:22.979 --> 01:15:23.479
 mental illness

01:15:23.479 --> 01:15:24.520
 might change from

01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:25.600
 like, I need

01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:26.359
 someone to sit in

01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:27.039
 silence with me

01:15:27.039 --> 01:15:28.119
 while I cry, to

01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:29.239
 then like, oh, I

01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:29.960
 need to go to

01:15:29.960 --> 01:15:30.939
 movies, you know,

01:15:30.979 --> 01:15:32.319
 and watch Marvel

01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:32.840
 or, you know,

01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:33.099
 whatever.

01:15:33.340 --> 01:15:36.119
 So like, yeah,

01:15:36.179 --> 01:15:36.819
 both of those are

01:15:36.819 --> 01:15:37.840
 so important to

01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:38.799
 keep in mind,

01:15:38.859 --> 01:15:39.239
 absolutely.

01:15:39.899 --> 01:15:40.420
 And I think that's

01:15:40.420 --> 01:15:41.380
 why the, like, again,

01:15:41.380 --> 01:15:42.159
 the relationship is

01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:42.880
 so important, right?

01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:43.699
 So you think about

01:15:43.699 --> 01:15:44.899
 like your close

01:15:44.899 --> 01:15:45.739
 family members, like

01:15:45.739 --> 01:15:46.319
 sometimes you even

01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:46.759
 know what they're

01:15:46.759 --> 01:15:47.500
 going to say before

01:15:47.500 --> 01:15:47.939
 they're going to

01:15:47.939 --> 01:15:48.559
 say it because you

01:15:48.559 --> 01:15:49.500
 know their patterns.

01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:50.500
 And so for

01:15:50.500 --> 01:15:51.259
 somebody you walked

01:15:51.259 --> 01:15:52.259
 alongside with

01:15:52.259 --> 01:15:52.939
 mental illness for

01:15:52.939 --> 01:15:54.659
 a while, you know,

01:15:54.759 --> 01:15:55.399
 kind of like the

01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:56.559
 ebb and flow, right?

01:15:56.599 --> 01:15:57.219
 You know, like,

01:15:57.779 --> 01:15:58.340
 maybe, you know,

01:15:58.380 --> 01:15:59.519
 that when they look

01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:00.660
 back on periods

01:16:00.660 --> 01:16:01.100
 of depression,

01:16:01.200 --> 01:16:01.580
 they're like, yeah,

01:16:01.580 --> 01:16:03.380
 I really struggled

01:16:03.380 --> 01:16:04.080
 with keeping a

01:16:04.080 --> 01:16:04.720
 clean house, like

01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:06.140
 all the dishes

01:16:06.140 --> 01:16:07.040
 piled up and I

01:16:07.040 --> 01:16:07.620
 never left the

01:16:07.620 --> 01:16:08.280
 house and I

01:16:08.280 --> 01:16:08.860
 never like took

01:16:08.860 --> 01:16:09.540
 a shower, right?

01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:11.460
 And so maybe

01:16:11.460 --> 01:16:12.400
 as you've seen

01:16:12.400 --> 01:16:12.800
 that through a

01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:13.860
 couple of episodes,

01:16:13.860 --> 01:16:14.500
 the next time

01:16:14.500 --> 01:16:15.380
 they're in a, you

01:16:15.380 --> 01:16:15.920
 know, a depressive

01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:17.300
 episode, those are

01:16:17.300 --> 01:16:18.000
 things that you end

01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:19.380
 up suggesting or

01:16:19.380 --> 01:16:20.280
 doing with them or

01:16:20.280 --> 01:16:21.560
 for them with their

01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:22.280
 permission, right?

01:16:22.280 --> 01:16:23.140
 Because you like,

01:16:23.260 --> 01:16:23.940
 because maybe in the

01:16:23.940 --> 01:16:24.380
 midst of their

01:16:24.380 --> 01:16:25.480
 depression, they don't

01:16:25.480 --> 01:16:26.080
 know what they

01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:26.920
 actually need, but

01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:28.119
 you're able to kind

01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:29.019
 of hold that memory

01:16:29.019 --> 01:16:31.079
 for them and say

01:16:31.079 --> 01:16:31.680
 like, oh, like in

01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:32.539
 the past, it seems

01:16:32.539 --> 01:16:32.979
 like that's been

01:16:32.979 --> 01:16:33.260
 helpful.

01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:33.979
 Is that something

01:16:33.979 --> 01:16:34.779
 that would be

01:16:34.779 --> 01:16:35.220
 helpful now?

01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:35.920
 But that requires

01:16:35.920 --> 01:16:36.500
 kind of, again,

01:16:36.539 --> 01:16:37.479
 an intimacy of

01:16:37.479 --> 01:16:38.559
 knowing what does

01:16:38.559 --> 01:16:39.699
 that person respond

01:16:39.699 --> 01:16:40.039
 to.

01:16:42.039 --> 01:16:44.180
 And to the point

01:16:44.180 --> 01:16:45.079
 about like support

01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:45.979
 groups and organized

01:16:45.979 --> 01:16:47.019
 support, we've had,

01:16:47.619 --> 01:16:48.300
 I mean, one of the

01:16:48.300 --> 01:16:48.880
 things that has come

01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:49.760
 from this class, like

01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:51.140
 a few different times

01:16:51.140 --> 01:16:51.899
 is folks have given

01:16:51.899 --> 01:16:52.960
 feedback about like

01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:54.539
 having some sort of

01:16:54.539 --> 01:16:56.059
 ongoing space

01:16:56.060 --> 01:16:57.480
 in the church to

01:16:57.480 --> 01:16:58.380
 talk about mental

01:16:58.380 --> 01:16:59.080
 illness and get

01:16:59.080 --> 01:16:59.500
 support.

01:16:59.820 --> 01:17:01.580
 So we, yeah, I

01:17:01.580 --> 01:17:02.020
 think that those are

01:17:02.020 --> 01:17:02.760
 great suggestions.

01:17:03.039 --> 01:17:04.940
 So we are going to

01:17:04.940 --> 01:17:05.980
 start a conversation

01:17:05.980 --> 01:17:08.300
 with the, we'll talk

01:17:08.300 --> 01:17:09.160
 with the elders and

01:17:09.160 --> 01:17:09.980
 kind of see what that

01:17:09.980 --> 01:17:10.940
 might look like or,

01:17:11.140 --> 01:17:11.640
 and we've kind of

01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:12.420
 considered ourselves

01:17:12.420 --> 01:17:13.000
 what that might look

01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:13.180
 like.

01:17:13.260 --> 01:17:13.980
 So I guess stay

01:17:13.980 --> 01:17:14.440
 tuned.

01:17:14.620 --> 01:17:15.200
 That could be

01:17:15.200 --> 01:17:15.880
 something that might

01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:17.740
 be coming up.

01:17:18.120 --> 01:17:19.039
 Yeah, depending.

01:17:20.700 --> 01:17:22.039
 So thanks for the

01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:22.940
 suggestions too.

01:17:23.940 --> 01:17:24.240
 Yeah.

01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:25.200
 Are there other,

01:17:25.420 --> 01:17:25.960
 yeah, just,

01:17:26.060 --> 01:17:27.000
 I know we've

01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:27.860
 covered a lot

01:17:27.860 --> 01:17:28.760
 today, just

01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:30.260
 lingering questions

01:17:30.260 --> 01:17:31.480
 or experiences.

01:17:31.740 --> 01:17:31.800
 Yeah.

01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:32.420
 I think we'll look

01:17:32.420 --> 01:17:33.300
 into peer-to-peer

01:17:33.300 --> 01:17:34.580
 support training.

01:17:35.260 --> 01:17:35.920
 And so, and I'm

01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:36.480
 sure other people

01:17:36.480 --> 01:17:37.260
 would be happy to

01:17:37.260 --> 01:17:37.680
 too.

01:17:38.440 --> 01:17:39.640
 And just to have

01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:40.480
 a community where

01:17:40.480 --> 01:17:41.580
 people are being

01:17:41.580 --> 01:17:42.200
 willing to be

01:17:42.200 --> 01:17:42.960
 vulnerable and

01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:44.039
 support each other.

01:17:44.160 --> 01:17:44.820
 It doesn't have to

01:17:44.820 --> 01:17:46.760
 be a depressing

01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:47.900
 sad.

01:17:48.140 --> 01:17:49.539
 I mean, it can be

01:17:49.539 --> 01:17:51.820
 life-changing

01:17:51.820 --> 01:17:54.840
 community, fun,

01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:55.900
 and, you know,

01:17:56.000 --> 01:17:58.020
 really, truly

01:17:58.020 --> 01:18:02.840
 fellowship and,

01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:04.560
 you know, being

01:18:04.560 --> 01:18:05.079
 there for each

01:18:05.079 --> 01:18:05.300
 other.

01:18:05.579 --> 01:18:05.880
 Yeah.

01:18:05.880 --> 01:18:06.880
 Yeah.

01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:07.960
 And I think, like,

01:18:08.380 --> 01:18:09.440
 being able to walk

01:18:09.440 --> 01:18:10.119
 alongside that

01:18:10.119 --> 01:18:11.460
 spectrum when it's

01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:12.100
 such a chronic

01:18:12.100 --> 01:18:12.600
 thing is so

01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:13.100
 important, right?

01:18:13.100 --> 01:18:13.520
 So it doesn't

01:18:13.520 --> 01:18:14.520
 always, to your

01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:14.940
 point, it doesn't

01:18:14.940 --> 01:18:15.539
 always have to be

01:18:15.539 --> 01:18:16.100
 like this really

01:18:16.100 --> 01:18:16.779
 sad, like, let's

01:18:16.779 --> 01:18:17.380
 get together and

01:18:17.380 --> 01:18:17.880
 talk about all the

01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:18.400
 terrible things.

01:18:18.659 --> 01:18:19.340
 But sometimes it's

01:18:19.340 --> 01:18:20.039
 about having, like,

01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:21.319
 a support group to

01:18:21.319 --> 01:18:22.539
 celebrate when, you

01:18:22.539 --> 01:18:24.140
 know, somebody has

01:18:24.140 --> 01:18:26.100
 been able to, like,

01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:27.560
 do, you know, X,

01:18:27.619 --> 01:18:27.880
 Y, and Z.

01:18:27.940 --> 01:18:28.480
 That was a goal

01:18:28.480 --> 01:18:29.220
 that was really

01:18:29.220 --> 01:18:29.940
 hard, right?

01:18:29.939 --> 01:18:30.099
 Yeah.

01:18:30.099 --> 01:18:30.419
 Yeah.

01:18:33.419 --> 01:18:33.859
 Yeah.

01:18:33.859 --> 01:18:34.699
 Mm-hmm.

01:18:37.699 --> 01:18:38.179
 Right.

01:18:39.539 --> 01:18:40.259
 But taking those,

01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:41.460
 yeah, taking those

01:18:41.460 --> 01:18:42.239
 moments to celebrate.

01:18:42.339 --> 01:18:43.000
 And I think the AA

01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:43.839
 model has, like,

01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:44.799
 you know, where it's

01:18:44.799 --> 01:18:45.460
 like, you know, 24

01:18:45.460 --> 01:18:46.379
 hours after you

01:18:46.379 --> 01:18:47.099
 abstain from an

01:18:47.099 --> 01:18:47.639
 addiction, right?

01:18:47.639 --> 01:18:49.139
 You get this visual

01:18:49.139 --> 01:18:50.159
 reminder, like, yes,

01:18:50.179 --> 01:18:50.859
 you've been able to

01:18:50.859 --> 01:18:51.419
 do it.

01:18:51.779 --> 01:18:52.539
 And then, you know,

01:18:52.559 --> 01:18:52.979
 and then they have,

01:18:53.059 --> 01:18:53.659
 like, these regular

01:18:53.659 --> 01:18:54.479
 kind of sobriety

01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:54.819
 chips.

01:18:54.819 --> 01:18:56.679
 And it's not, and,

01:18:56.799 --> 01:18:57.179
 you know, it's

01:18:57.179 --> 01:18:58.000
 understanding sometimes

01:18:58.000 --> 01:18:58.839
 people fall off the

01:18:58.839 --> 01:18:59.699
 bandwagon, but, like,

01:18:59.699 --> 01:19:00.039
 we're going to

01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:00.679
 celebrate in the

01:19:00.679 --> 01:19:01.340
 moment, you know,

01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:02.099
 for the victories

01:19:02.099 --> 01:19:02.840
 that are happening

01:19:02.840 --> 01:19:03.519
 right now.

01:19:03.779 --> 01:19:03.939
 Yeah.

01:19:04.739 --> 01:19:05.880
 Or this medication

01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:06.720
 worked for you.

01:19:06.800 --> 01:19:07.319
 Like, we've tried,

01:19:07.679 --> 01:19:08.179
 you tried five

01:19:08.179 --> 01:19:08.960
 medications, and now

01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:09.539
 this one works.

01:19:09.539 --> 01:19:10.159
 Like, there is

01:19:10.159 --> 01:19:12.119
 something to celebrate.

01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:13.019
 And recognizing, like,

01:19:13.279 --> 01:19:13.979
 people with mental

01:19:13.979 --> 01:19:15.139
 illness are not only

01:19:15.139 --> 01:19:15.960
 their mental illness.

01:19:16.059 --> 01:19:16.800
 Like, that's a part

01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:17.760
 of their experience.

01:19:17.979 --> 01:19:18.920
 But there's still a

01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:19.960
 whole person to get

01:19:19.960 --> 01:19:20.939
 to know and be in

01:19:20.939 --> 01:19:22.059
 relationship with.

01:19:22.699 --> 01:19:23.899
 And it's going to

01:19:23.899 --> 01:19:24.539
 include a lot of

01:19:24.539 --> 01:19:25.159
 ups and downs.

01:19:25.579 --> 01:19:26.099
 Right, right, right.

01:19:26.260 --> 01:19:26.539
 Yeah.

01:19:26.819 --> 01:19:27.000
 Yeah.

01:19:28.119 --> 01:19:29.199
 So it's 10-20.

01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:29.639
 Okay.

01:19:30.639 --> 01:19:31.479
 Well, if anyone

01:19:31.479 --> 01:19:32.420
 has questions, we'll

01:19:32.420 --> 01:19:33.039
 stick around.

01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:33.679
 But thank you so

01:19:33.679 --> 01:19:34.720
 much for being part

01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:35.119
 of this class.

01:19:35.239 --> 01:19:35.960
 This was, yeah, we

01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:37.220
 so appreciate all of

01:19:37.220 --> 01:19:37.920
 you sharing and

01:19:37.920 --> 01:19:38.300
 engaging.

01:19:38.619 --> 01:19:39.139
 And, yeah, it was

01:19:39.139 --> 01:19:39.800
 really wonderful.

01:19:39.800 --> 01:19:40.480
 Thank you.

01:19:40.480 --> 01:19:40.520
 Thank you.

01:19:40.520 --> 01:19:40.539
 Thank you.

01:19:40.539 --> 01:19:41.300
 Thank you.