open up in prayer.
Do you want to open us up in prayer? Sure.
Lord Jesus, we are
thankful for this Sunday.
We thank you for gathering us together
and we pray that this time
would be one that shows us how
we can walk with one another, bear with
one another in
truth and in grace, Lord. Teach
us how we can reflect Christ to one
another. We thank you for
the ways you have knit us together as a body
and we pray that this time would
be filled with encouragement. In Jesus' name
we pray. Amen.
Amen. Alright, welcome to our final
faith and mental health
class.
On Memorial Day weekend.
So this will be
our last class on this
topic for now. Maybe we'll have a part
to
at some point in the future, but we're super glad you all
are here. Today we're going to
be specifically talking about how
can those of us in the church, how can we
as a church support people who are
struggling with mental illness?
And we think the church actually
has, should be the place
where people who are struggling and
suffering ideally would come.
And we want to figure out how is we, how can we
as a church really facilitate being
that place as Christ has called us to be.
And just as a brief
recap, because I know it's, we took a break
last week. So the first week we were talking
about what are the causes of mental
illness? Is it due to sin
or personal weakness versus
kind of our understanding of biological,
genetic, psychological, and
social factors? The second
week we talked about, you know, can
Christians have mental illness and what in
the Christian culture can get in the way
of accepting the
struggle with mental illness? And then
week three was, okay, if you believe that
Christians can have mental illness,
how does a Christian go around navigating,
getting treatment?
And so
this week we're circling back to something
that we had talked about a couple
weeks ago, which is a new vision
of what church can
look like.
And so we've kind of broken up our
session today into four,
three to four different areas.
So one would be nuanced understandings.
The second would be vulnerability.
The third, and we'll probably end on this,
is grace and humility and bearing with
each other. And the fourth,
which is more of like a culture
church thing,
would be around lament and celebration.
But we'll spend the majority of our time
on the first three.
And so for each of these, we'll talk about
what is it, what gets in the way,
and the factors that promote it.
Two, three.
Oh my goodness, sorry.
We are,
oh, thank you, thank you.
Oh, perfect, okay.
Could have been a good test of my memory.
All right, so
just to start us off with a quote,
I really like this book,
so just a quick book recommendation.
It's called Troubled Minds,
Mental Illness, and the Church's Mission.
It's written by a woman who is an author
and has worked in church ministry, I think,
and her mother has schizophrenia.
So she writes from kind of a objective perspective
and a personal perspective.
So I'm just going to read this quote.
The church can and should be at the forefront
of this move toward loving acceptance
and open support for those with mental illness.
In the words of the Apostle Paul,
God has put the body together
such that extra honor and care
are given to those parts that have less dignity.
This makes for harmony among the members
so that all the members care for each other.
If one part suffers, all parts suffer with it.
And if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.
So then she asks,
does this passage describe your church's approach
to those among you who have less dignity,
to those who are suffering?
So we want to start off by just putting this question
to all of you.
Thinking, I guess, about Trinity specifically
and about maybe we as a church,
sort of more broadly as a Christian church,
to what extent does this characterize
our approach to those who are suffering
with mental illness?
So to what extent do we,
are we at the forefront of loving acceptance
and open support of those with mental illness?
And maybe how are we or how aren't we?
And how do you see that?
No, it would seem to me
that the establishment of the care team
moves us much closer to that
where the burden is not so much on the staff.
Like how can we make it not just leadership
who's caring for those with mental illness,
but rather us as a church body
caring for one another.
Yeah?
Agreed.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What do other people think?
And again, this could be,
again, our church specifically
or just churches that you have been in.
I'll say awareness,
like classes like this.
I didn't know that mental health professionals
were, you know,
attended Trinity.
And so I didn't know
there was any expertise to draw from there.
So awareness.
Yeah.
There's something like
making it a visible conversation topic.
Like, maybe it's a little hard to just
after church be like,
oh, I have depression.
Right.
But, I mean,
I mean, I do things like that,
but that's, you know,
sometimes socially awkward.
So, yeah.
Having like an organized format
where it's a little more visible.
Carefully consider
teaching and discussion,
not just,
again,
taking the burden off leadership
where we expect
that statistic about
pastors addressing mental illness,
what was it,
one-third of them
less than one time a year
or something like that.
And so,
there's reasons why
we,
our pastors can't
hit every issue
in front
that every person is facing
from the pulpit
each year
because
there's
as many individuals
as there are
there's as many
specific issues
they're going through.
Right.
So,
especially this verse
is helpful
to point out
that the diversity
of
the body's
functions
help
hold us together.
It's not just
the head's job
to do everything.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
That whole thing
of the head,
my pastor
in D.C.,
he would talk
very openly
about himself
being in counseling
in front of the pulpit
and to me
that was like
very refreshing.
Yeah,
just like,
I don't know,
I think he did a lot
to kind of
destigmatize it
and show like
just because
you're in counseling
like everyone needs
help sometimes
and it's not like
obviously we all
have,
and thank you
for the good
Godly man.
Mm-hmm.
So it wasn't like,
so I thought
that that was,
I don't know,
as far as like
the dignity
and I think
that went along
the way.
Yeah,
good segue
to our vulnerability
topic later.
Yeah,
Tyler.
I'd say truly
from when I got here
eight years ago,
I've always found
it in a place
where,
at least initially
where the teaching
gifts were really
valued among the body
and I think
you can go
too far
in that direction
where you value
those who are
articulate
and teach the Bible
and those are
all great things.
but I think
the recent years
I think by some
of the people
at Columbus House
who have come
into membership
and that type
here,
one person in
particular
who has a mental
illness
and,
you know,
she's very open
about it.
So I've seen
the teaching
maternity grow
in that regard.
It may have
valued or have
been open
before I got here
but that's just
the progression
of it.
Yeah.
And that's a great,
oh sorry Stephanie,
yeah.
Oh no,
I was just
going to say
like those
are,
it's also worth
asking like how
did we make
that shift?
Like how do we
become a church
that welcomes
people like that
and value gifts
from the pulpit
or elsewhere
like in ways
that leadership
may model?
Yeah.
In terms of
the broader
church in this
country,
I was really
amazed
that the book
had dementia
sold five or
six times more
than any of the
other books.
that is such
a critical
need.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Evangeline has
some things to
add clearly.
Yeah.
Specific to
Trinity
and things
that I've seen
and have been
my experience
is when
Sammy was
very young,
the people
within the
congregation
stepped up.
We had
two sleep
deprived
EEG,
which meant
everybody was
going to be
sleep deprived.
And we had
people from
Trinity
who signed
up to come
in,
play with
Sammy,
overnight,
so mom and
dad could get
some sleep
and actually be
awake for when
they needed to
be awake.
Right, right,
right.
And then we
had other
people who
would just
show up at
our doorstep
on Friday
night and
say,
you and
your husband
are going
out to
dinner and
a movie
tonight.
Goodbye,
we don't
want to see
you until
9 or 10
o'clock.
Sammy would
not have
things to
do.
That would
be Miss
Dorothy who
did that.
You fast
forward into
the youth
group years
where they
would go on
retreat and
I would have
to pack
bags of
special food
because Sammy
is gluten and
casein free.
And in
those days
that was
much bigger
of a deal
than it is
these days.
And Miss
Kirsten who
said,
you don't
have to
bring about
a thing,
you're not
doing anything
and I've
got one of
my daughters
who's going
to shadow
Sammy so
she's ready
to roll.
Well, those
were all
examples of
people within
this church
and believe
me, I
have talked,
I've done
many presentations
and talked
to other
churches about
how well
Trinity did
this without
there having
to be a
programmatic
example
within them.
They just
did it.
And that
was something
that was a
true blessing
and something
I think really
unique to
this body
of believers.
That's so
beautiful.
And I think
it really
illustrates well
over somebody's
lifetime what
different needs
may look like
and the different
people that can
step in and
be a team
and walk
alongside that.
Rather than
just mom
for that
paying attention.
And that
I really
found incredibly
helpful and
supportive.
And now that
she can give
back, which is
really wonderful,
I think it's
an exciting
piece to see
happen.
It's come full
circle.
That's wonderful.
Well, thank
you all for
sharing.
So I think
the first
section that
we wanted to
talk about in
this new
vision of what
a church can
look like
involves nuanced
understandings.
So just to
start out with,
there are a
couple of
Bible verses
that I wanted
to share.
So the first
one is
Ephesians 4.29.
Do not let
any unwholesome
talk come out
of your mouths,
but only what
is helpful for
building others
up according to
their needs,
that it may
benefit those
who listen.
And I think
sometimes when we
think about
speech that's
unwholesome,
we might think
about curse
words, or we
might think
about things
that are,
you know,
lies, or,
you know,
things that are
quote-unquote
unholy.
But I like
the juxtaposition
of unwholesome
versus, you
know, is this
helpful to those
who are hearing
it, right?
And so words
that may be
technically true
may not actually
benefit the person
who's listening.
And so just
thinking about
ways that
our words
can be
well-received.
And the other
is just from
Proverbs 12.18.
There is one
whose rash
words are like
sword thrusts,
but the tongue
of the wise
brings healing.
So again,
this emphasis
on how speech
can be used
for healing.
So the first
part of what
are nuanced
understandings
of mental
illness?
Yeah, so
this is kind
of a review
of week one
for those
of you who
are here.
So we just
want to keep
in mind,
importantly,
we don't
know what
is causing
another person's
mental illness.
To even have
any idea
of what that
might be would
have to be
in a really,
really close
relationship
with them,
probably over
a long period
of time.
So we just
want to be
really careful
about jumping
to conclusions,
especially
around making
attributions
of personal
sin or that
type of thing.
So if I meet
Stephanie and
Stephanie shares,
like maybe we've
known each other
a few weeks
at Trinity,
and Stephanie
shares like,
oh, I have
anxiety,
my first response
shouldn't,
ideally wouldn't
be, oh,
here's where,
you know,
maybe you're
failing spiritually
and that's why
you're having
anxiety, right?
Like we want
to keep in mind
that probably
if Stephanie's
dealing with
anxiety,
the factors
that are
contributing
to that are
very complex
and many
of them
might not
have to do
with her
own choices
and really
kind of only
in being in
a relationship
with somebody
over a long
period of time
and walking
with them
very closely
can we
maybe observe
or learn more
about maybe
what some
causes might be.
But honestly,
causes of mental
illness can be
somewhat of a
mystery,
even to
mental health
professionals or
to those who
are struggling
with mental
illness.
So just
keeping in
mind that
humility that
the things
that cause
mental illness
are multi-causal
and also
multi-maintained
as we've
talked about.
That doesn't
mean we have
nothing to
contribute or
no ideas or
no important
encouragement to
offer, but it
does just
important to have
a kind of a
stance of
humility.
And I think
nuanced
understandings is
basically at
its core,
like do we
understand what
this person is
going through?
Do we understand
their lived
experience and
have we
communicated that
to them,
that we are
understanding
them?
And then in
terms of what
gets in the
way of
nuanced
understandings?
Yeah, so
oftentimes this
idea, like it
is just
cognitively
easier to
kind of
categorize
things and
to use sort
of quick
heuristics to
inform our
understandings.
It's really
hard and
messy to sit
with complexity
or a sense
of like I
don't really
know, right?
Like so if
we have a
friend who's
struggling with
really severe
depression for
instance and
we want to
help and we
want to help
them get
better and we
want there to
be a solution,
it is just
cognitively easier
to be like,
oh it must be
because you're
not reading your
Bible enough,
right?
Like that's
just an easier
thing cognitively
to jump to
and it can
kind of save
us time,
right?
It feels like
it saves us
time of like
sitting in this
messiness and
something that we
don't know how
to deal with
or understand.
Oh I guess
one more
point too
and this will
come up a
little bit later
as we talk
about vulnerability.
I do think
there's something
about we
like we don't
want to suffer
with mental
illness, right?
Like I think
watching somebody
really struggle
mind, body,
and soul in a
way they can't
control can be
scary and I
think as humans
we oftentimes
want to
categorize,
that is them
and their
struggle and
we are somehow
exempt from that
or we're not
like them,
we're kind of
different,
we're not going
to struggle in
the same ways.
So I think
oftentimes we
might not use
nuanced
understandings
because it's
easier to
think, oh,
if it's
complex and
mysterious and
we're not sure
why they're
struggling,
then I
actually might
be vulnerable
to struggle
too.
I think that's
scary to admit
that we're
not different,
that we're
not exempt,
and so I
think sometimes
this fear
can kind of
keep us at
arm's length
from people
and kind of
like, oh,
they're not
very holy,
right?
Or they
kind of need
to pray
more and
we are doing
better with
our spiritual
life,
therefore we're
not going to
struggle in
the same ways.
So I think
that can kind
of be,
our fear can
keep us from
nuanced
understandings
too.
A third thing
we came up
with in terms
of what gets
in the way of
nuanced
understandings
included
busyness,
and I mean
we could talk
probably like
for an hour
on this,
but you know
just as a
culture,
right,
that we are
very task
oriented,
we're quantifying
things,
we're into
getting things
done,
and sometimes
the process
can get a
little bit
lost in that,
and sometimes
you know
we're just,
we're busy,
we're,
you know,
it's hard to,
it takes time
to walk with
someone who has
mental illness,
and so there
really has to be
kind of an
intentionality
around it,
because I think
by default our
lives can get
really crowded,
and then the
last one that
we came up
with was that
it's hard to
be empathetic
if we ourselves
haven't done
our own work,
and so you
know if somebody
is really
struggling,
and we minimize
it, we say oh
well it's not
that bad,
right,
like the chances
are good,
like that's
probably how
we're dealing
with ourselves
too,
that we've
kind of been
like spiritually
bypassing some
of our own
emotions,
and I think
it's important
just to realize
that we can
only offer
to people
what we've
been given,
what we've
been able to
work through
with the grace
of God
on ourselves,
and so we
can't really
expect ourselves
to be empathetic
towards other
people's struggles
if we haven't
been able to
receive that
sort of love
from other
people and
from the
Lord.
All right,
so, and
then we'll
have time for
discussion here
in a couple
minutes, but
what promotes
nuanced
understandings,
like it's
hard, it's
really messy,
somebody comes
to you with
psychosis or
anxiety,
depression,
PTSD, they're
really hurting,
you don't know
what to do,
right, like what
are we supposed
to do, like how
can we get to
these nuanced
understandings,
so we think
really the best
thing is just
to ask questions
and to be
curious and to
ask a lot
more questions
than giving
solutions or
advice, especially
up front, and
to really, like
Stephanie said,
really try to
understand what
is the person's
experience and
really what is
it like to be
them, kind of
what is it like
to live their
life, how does
it feel for them
every day, so
these are just
some practical
ways of doing
that, these are
active listening
skills which are
typically used by
therapists but are
also good for
every person for
pretty much every
situation, so
just asking
open-ended
questions, not
like, oh, are
you having a good
day, but like,
like, tell me
a leading
question, exactly,
right, but like,
tell me about your
last week, you
know, something like
that, requesting
clarification, being
attentive, summarizing
and paraphrasing can
feel a little awkward
to do, but it really
can help facilitate
somebody continuing
to share, so if
Stephanie tells me
like, oh, I'm
having such a hard
time, here's what's
going on, even just
saying something like,
oh, it sounds like
it's been a rough
week, you know, and
it's really interesting
how that kind of
summary or paraphrase
can open up
somebody to
continue sharing,
reflecting feelings,
like, sounds like
you're really sad and
you've been feeling
really down, and
asking probing
questions, like, oh,
and this is where I
think it's just that
entering more into the
complexity of
somebody's experience
without needing to
go in with, like,
here's the solution of
exactly what you
should do, but like,
oh, have you
struggled with
depression for a
long time, or when
did that start, or,
you know, just trying
to find out more
about the shape
and the, yeah, the
feeling of their
experience is really
helpful.
Yeah, I would say,
like, almost, like,
when in doubt, just
ask a question, like,
if you're not sure
what to say, it may,
it may be because
there isn't anything
to say yet, right,
that we haven't fully
understood what
they're going through,
and I think it's
interesting when we,
when we look in the
Bible, right, that
God asks questions
when Adam and Eve
have sinned, not that
mental illness is a
sin, but he asks,
you know, where are
you, right, and
that's a question, not
just of where are you
in location, but just
where are you
relationally to me,
and what, you know,
what have you done,
as well as, you know,
when Jesus heals
people, there, it's,
or he's interacting
with his disciples,
right, he's asking,
what do you want,
what are you seeking,
do you want to be
healed, and then
asking his disciples,
do you want to go
away as well, right,
and so I think
there's something
about asking
questions that puts
the, you know,
gives the other
person agency
versus trying to
say, oh, you know,
well, you should
eat better and
exercise better, and
then your depression
will get better,
but more, you know,
well, what helps or
what doesn't help is
what I'm saying
helpful or not,
right, and that can
feel kind of
threatening because
sometimes people might
say, like, no,
that's not helpful
at all, right, you
know, and, but that's
the choice, like, God
gives and Jesus gives
when he interacts
with people, he
doesn't just, like,
heal them
automatically, he
says, do you want
to be healed, right,
what is the choice
here, and so, you
know, if that's true
for God and Jesus,
like, how much more
is that, does that
need to be true for
us with our limited
understandings of
humans?
And I'd say it's not
that there's no room
for, of course, godly
counsel and
encouragement and
that kind of thing,
there is absolutely a
place for that, but I
think sometimes if we
are uncomfortable with
someone's experience,
the proportion of our
counsel to our
question asking can be,
like, 90 to 10,
whereas, like, especially
if we are not very
familiar with a person's
situation, probably,
like, 90% questions,
10% counsel would
probably be better.
So just to kind of,
like, be aware of the
ways in which if we are
unsure what to do or
say or feel scared or
uncomfortable, we tend to
offer counsel to kind of
distance ourselves versus
asking questions to enter
in and then only once we've
really entered in and
tried our best to
understand offering and
encouragement or a piece
of counsel.
And we'll get more in a
little bit to kind of what
the, what the church can
do.
A couple quotes here that
Stephanie had found that
was really.
Yeah.
So I really like this quote
from Bonhoeffer, which is
in his book about community,
life together.
So there is a, and this
just kind of says again,
like, you know, what is
active listening, right?
Um, so there is a kind of
listening with half an ear
that presumes already to
know what the other person
has to say.
It is an impatient,
inattentive listening that
despises the brother and is
only waiting for a chance to
speak and thus get rid of
the other person.
Christians have forgotten
that the ministry of
listening has been committed
to them by him who his is
himself, the great listener
and whose work they should
share.
We should listen with the
ears of God that we may
speak the word of God.
And then one more here.
I really like this quote
Stephanie found from
Charles Spurgeon.
So, ah, says one, I used
to laugh at Mrs.
So-and-so for being
nervous.
Now that I feel the
torture myself, I am sorry
that I was ever hard on
her.
Ah, says another, I used
to think of such and such
a person that he must be a
fool to always be in so
gloomy a state of mind.
But now I cannot help
sinking into the same
desponding frames.
And oh, I would to God
that I had been more kind
to him.
Yes, we should feel more
for the prisoner if we knew
more about his prison.
So I think that's, I don't
know if any of you have
ever been through the
experience where you kind
of judge someone for a
simple example.
Before I had a baby, when
people would be really,
really structured and
scheduled about like, oh,
we need to get baby home
on time to take a nap and
all these kinds of things.
I was like, a little
overkill, right?
And then after having a
baby, case in point, I'm
like, nap time.
She's got to be home.
You know, so like, if we
haven't really been through
something, it can be hard
to understand why somebody
is responding the way they
are.
And then sometimes if we,
once we go through that,
there's a moment of
realization of like, oh,
really that makes a lot
more sense.
Right.
Now that we're going
through this.
So just like to take some
time for comments,
questions about this idea
of nuanced understandings
and how active listening
can promote nuanced
understanding.
So yeah, any, any areas
that people want to share
experiences or ask any
questions about what we
talked about so far?
I just want to share, I
mean, mentally, this is
a lot of that, especially
post-COVID.
I mean, it's very
critical.
There's several things that
I think as a church group,
we can do quite a bit if
we kind of like, you know,
this is actually our first
step to talk about it.
But in terms of, we can do
quite a lot more as a
church group.
I think in terms of like
listening is very important,
I think, but this is only
once.
It's tough to listen when
we're in a church hall and
we need to go around.
And to listen to somebody,
you need to listen.
And it's not just five
minutes.
It's like sometimes, you
know, 15 minutes over a
month period.
And I think that's, and
that's tough.
So, fellowshiping, I think
is probably one of the
things that we can do as
a group to help each other
out, to talk, to listen,
and to do things together.
But the other thing, I
mean, this is just a
suggestion.
And I don't know how the
church leadership feels.
Like maybe just having, you
know, support groups, you
know, a regular support
groups or, you know, for
general stuff.
You know, people get
together and just talk.
And listen.
Talk and listen.
Yeah.
And maybe if you have
somebody who's maybe a
leader who, you know,
kind of like give spiritual
guidance and at the same
time, you know, give also
some, you know, non-spiritual,
which is that I think that,
I think, you know, God can do
a lot, but we'll be whole
when we're in heaven.
But we're not whole
here.
And sometimes we need, you
know, some other people to
kind of come in and kind of
make things better.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I want to look that up.
Not short version by
Dietrich von Hofer.
Okay.
Oh.
Yeah.
This is from Life
Together, which is Life
Together.
Is that the name of the
book?
Yes.
Yeah.
It's a book on, like,
Christian community.
Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for
your comment.
I think that's a great
point about, like, being
committed to listening more
than just one time, right?
Like, we're probably not
going to make a ton.
It's probably not going to
be a ton of difference if
after church once, you know,
Josh comes to me and says,
oh, it's been a, you know,
dealing with this.
And for five minutes, I've
been listening to him and I
never follow up.
Right.
That's probably not going to
be like, that might be fine,
but it's probably not going to
make a huge difference.
I mean, you make a great
point about, like, the
longevity of listening to,
which is really important.
Right.
Which I think speaks to just
how relationships need to be
structured in order to be
healing, that it requires a
frequency and intentionality,
and we'll talk about this
later, and then a regularity
to it for it to be a real
relationship.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Alicia.
Yeah.
Just to kind of go off of
that, I, so I've had
anxiety since I was very
young.
And I think because I was
so young, there was, like,
this sense of it being, like,
this weird mystical thing,
like, how could anyone figure
out what is going on with
this?
But I think that actually
kind of helped me understand
what I wanted from, like,
the people in my life,
because I was like, you
sleep people, you can't fix
this.
I just need you to, like,
be here with me.
So I think, yeah, like, it
can be intimidating for us
when we see someone really
suffering, being like, I
don't know how to help them.
And even maybe, like, the
listen, I mean, like, you
don't have the questions.
I feel like all of those
things can be very
intimidating.
But, like, for me, it was
just, like, I just need you
to, like, show up and be
there.
It's okay if you don't know
what to do.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Carolyn?
I don't know.
I think part of, half of
listening is being okay with
uncomfortable silences.
Mm-hmm.
Especially in conversations
both when I have been
really struggling with my
mental health and when
talking, like, my brain
just works slower.
Mm-hmm.
And finding words is just
harder.
Mm-hmm.
So, even if I'm, like, in
the process of answering
your question, it might
take me two or three
minutes to get there.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's something
I do when I'm, like,
listening.
It's just, like, really,
like, I think my initial
thing is, like, oh, I
asked the wrong question.
Mm-hmm.
All I'm getting is silence.
Yeah.
And so I want to make
that better.
So I qualify it or ask
another question or I say
something and just to,
like, sit in that silence.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's, like,
one of the biggest gifts
people have given me and
that we can give one
another is to sit in the
uncomfortableness and in
the silence and be, like,
I don't care if it left.
Mm-hmm.
I don't care if it takes
you 30 seconds or, like,
four minutes to come with
an answer.
I still care enough about
what that answer is.
Mm-hmm.
So.
Yeah.
I had a friend once tell
me, like, you know, the
best thing Job's friends
ever did was, like, sit in
silence for seven days or
ten, forty, I don't know,
however many days it was.
And then, like, as soon as
they opened their mouths,
things went down.
Right?
But there was, like, there
is a ministry to just,
like, sitting with someone.
Yeah.
And it's a great point,
Alicia, too, about, like,
just somebody being present.
I think I've felt a similar
frustration with my OCD of,
like, well, it doesn't go
away.
Like, you know, sometimes I
think it's easier to minister
to other struggles.
Like, a physical illness,
maybe sometimes it doesn't
go away either, but there's
something easier about,
like, somebody's dealing
with something, we can
minister to them, it gets
better.
So often mental illness
isn't really like that,
and there's going to be
ebbing and flowing of
struggling over years,
right?
And so, like, a willingness
to continue to check in with
our friends and be present,
like, some months might be
good, some months might be
really bad, and that might
be always like that,
right?
Or that might be the
trajectory for a while,
and so to be willing to
kind of be entering in over
the long term.
Yeah.
Tyler?
I'm struck by Bonhoeffer's
last, the last line,
which is with the ears of
God, that we may speak the
word of God.
And I think one of the
roles that we as Christians
have with each other is
helping each other understand
our experiences in light of
God's reality.
It's not like denying the
fact that you don't have
anxiety, you're going to
ask for something.
It's the fact that, like,
yeah, that's true, but
let's look at what God has
said is true about himself,
and all these temptations
in the scriptures when we're
suffering, that God's
forgotten us, he's punishing
us for our sins, or, you
know, the blood has run
out, and we can just
affirm that, like, no, God's
steadfast love in Jesus
forever.
And I think of the
Psalms, what a great book
for the suffering, struggling
Christians, just to go through
the Psalms together and see,
yeah, it's Christians that
suffered with this, but look
how this Christian is still
relying on God's faithfulness.
I think we just help each
other understand that this is
something that Christians have
experienced, and it's okay to
experience it, but let's affirm
what God has said is true in his
word.
And I think that's a
bonhoeffer, I think he's kind of
getting out right there, where
they speak the word about.
Yeah, and reminding, I like,
how you have, like, reminding
people that God is entering in
to their experience, too, and
over the long term, and is
ever-present, and isn't going to
get tired of being present, even
if you struggle with anxiety for
years, right?
I think that's a really powerful
truth.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It reminds me, like, it's
fresh out, I'm sure I have, like,
nobody cares how much you know
until they know how much you
care.
Mm-hmm.
If you want to be a witness for
God and talk about his gospel,
they need to know that you're
enough to listen to God.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's probably the first step.
Right.
Is listening and learning and
understanding.
Yeah.
So, again, with, like, the
relationship piece, people can't
receive what it, like, what you
have to say until they know that
they can trust you.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And it can make your word of, the
word of God you speak more
powerful if you're, if you're
entering into relationship with
them over the long term.
Mm-hmm.
I think that will make more
meaningful and more powerful the
word of God that you speak to
them.
Yeah.
It's hard to express yourself and
talk to somebody if you feel like
they're half listening and they don't
really care to take the time or
effort to understand.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It shuts down.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, I think to move on to the
second section, and thank you all
for your feedback, it would be on
vulnerability as kind of another
necessary condition to be able to
walk with people well in mental
illness.
And I think somebody in, like, a
previous class had mentioned, you
know, when we go to church, we see
happy, shiny people, right?
And so, there's kind of that, like,
feeling of, like, well, what's wrong
with me that I'm not happy and
shiny?
And vulnerability goes a long way
towards being able to share in the
struggles that other people have
have.
So, in terms of what is it,
vulnerability is an invitation to
be fully known and fully loved by
one another.
And when we think about, you know,
what is needed to create life
literally, biologically, right, you
need to be vulnerable, you need to
be naked in order to create new life.
And in the same way, like, a
nakedness emotionally is needed to
be able to create new life within the
church.
It's a skill to be practiced, right?
So, it's not just something that
happens, but really trying to challenge
ourselves, you know, are we actually
being vulnerable with one another when
we share?
In terms of what gets in the way of
vulnerability, we have broken it up
into, you know, both what, for those
who are in the midst of struggling with
mental illness, what gets in the way of
being vulnerable.
vulnerable.
And we think about, you know,
sometimes, you know, hard events
happen, somebody shares that they're
struggling with depression, a suicide
happens, and everybody else says, oh, we
never knew that this person was
struggling, right?
And we'll circle back to that.
But then the other piece is also, you
know, what gets in the way of us who are
not currently struggling with mental
illness, being able to be vulnerable or
participate in that culture of
vulnerability.
In terms of, you know, when someone is
in the midst of currently struggling
with mental illness, I think the big two
are that there's a lot of shame around
it, which then leads to aloneness.
And I think shame as opposed to guilt is
this idea, not just that I've done
something bad, but I am bad.
I'm not enough.
And then that can lead us to hide our
struggles and to isolate a lot more,
which worsens the mental illness, but
it's also common to all mental
illness, right?
And so if you think about depression,
somebody's too depressed to get out of
bed, they can't join the body of
believers.
Somebody with eating disorders is like
counting their calories and can't
share in the life of food with the,
you know, which so much of our culture
is built around, right?
Because they're like doing their own
little thing that has to be, you
know, X calories and look a certain
way.
The same with like tics or compulsions,
right?
That people often kind of withdraw and
isolate because there is a lot of shame
around what that looks like.
Um, with anxieties and phobias, right?
Not being able to leave the house
because they're worried a panic attack
is going to happen.
And then there's not going to be
anybody around to help them.
So like, or even psychosis, right?
Which is you're worried.
You might be worried people are out to
get you, right?
It's hard to trust anybody.
There's a conspiracy against you.
Um, so all of these are just kind of
different aspects of how, even across
the spectrum of mental illness, there
are these kind of really core things
that further isolate people from the
life of the church.
Um, yeah.
Um, so for those of us who, I think
this can apply to both, but for those
of us who maybe are supporting people,
um, who are struggling with mental
illness, but don't have mental illness
ourselves, uh, there's a lot that kind
of make it hard for us to be vulnerable
to when, when we're in those places.
Um, and our vulnerability, even when
we're not specifically struggling with
mental illness can actually free up
people who are struggling with mental
illness to be vulnerable to.
So it's, we still play an important role
when we're in that place.
Um, so I think, yeah, sometimes we, we
want to protect ourselves.
We want to protect our image and
church, right?
I think sometimes there's a, there's a
sense of like, Oh, if I, if I revealed,
like I've had a terrible week and I
feel like I'm falling apart, even if
that's true, I think there can be an
implicit sense of like, well, people
think less of me.
Like, will I not be seen as, as godly?
Like, will people, yeah, kind of look
down on me?
I think that's a real, a real fear.
Um, busyness, like sometimes, you
know, we're rushing out of church, we're
rushing out of small group.
It takes time and intentionality to
sit down with someone and say, Hey, I'm
really, really anxious.
And I'm really struggling with just, it
takes time.
Um, I think also we can, um, uh, sort
of do transparency as opposed to
vulnerability.
So one time transparency was described
to me as like giving a lot of
information, but vulnerability is giving
information and giving an invitation, um,
to another person to enter into what
you're experiencing.
So, and this can kind of go along with,
um, spiritual bypassing, which we
talked about a couple of weeks ago.
So an example of this, um, so let's
say Stephanie and I are chatting at
small group.
Stephanie says, how are you?
And, you know, I'm having a rough week
with OCD and I say, Oh, you know, it's
been a rough week, but today is okay.
I know that God is faithful and he's
going to get me through it.
So I'm like, I'm feeling, you know, I'm
feeling better.
Right.
Like those things might all be true,
right?
Like I might've really had a rough week.
God really is faithful and it's going
to get me through it.
Today might really have been a better
day.
Like those things might all be true.
And that's not a bad, those aren't
bad things to say.
However, that doesn't really give
Stephanie an invitation to enter into
my experience.
And that kind of response is a lot
less risky than a vulnerable response,
which would be saying like, honestly,
Stephanie, I'm really struggling.
Like I want to trust in God's promises
and I'm trying to, but I'm having a
really hard time.
Would you be willing to meet up with me
a couple of times this week?
And could I talk to you more about how
I'm doing?
Like personally, even as I'm saying
that I like recoil against that more
internally, right?
Like that's a lot harder to do than to
say like, it's okay.
Getting through.
You know, so I think we can actually,
whether or not we're struggling with
mental illness at a given time, we can
free people who are struggling up to
be vulnerable if we are willing to
actually give people an invitation to
enter into our experience.
Laura Denny once described it to me
like transparency is like, if you have
like a room, if your internal experience
is like a room, it's like inviting
someone in like a museum and saying
like, look, there's a nice dresser.
There's a desk.
There's a bed.
Okay.
Leave now.
And vulnerability is like saying like,
okay, can I'm inviting you to like open
up the drawer and rifle through the drawer
and say, oh, here's like a stray sock.
And like, oh, under your bed, there's all
this stuff, right?
So it's a lot harder to do.
It's, you know, it takes a lot of courage
to do, but I think that that can really
both help us if we're experiencing mental
illness and just having that kind of
attitude and atmosphere in church can make
it easier for people to share.
And I think that it necessarily requires
kind of like smaller groups, right?
And again, like that trust and relationship
building.
I think we had a, we were talking about
how like on social media, right?
There's like the illusion of vulnerability
because everybody's just kind of posting
about how bad they're doing or, you know,
like, you know, hashtag XYZ, you know,
and sometimes mental illness is part of that,
right?
Like, you know, you're just kind of announcing
to hundreds of people that you're having
a really bad day, but there's no,
but you're just kind of like throwing it
out there with no expectation necessarily
of response other than like a surface level
like or dislike or something like that.
And so there's something about kind of
opening ourselves up that is only possible
in kind of smaller groups where you can
read the feedback of what this person
is seeing and feeling that is really
challenging.
And for those of us who have kind of been
in church culture for a while,
I think there's kind of the tendency to
get adept at kind of an illusion of
vulnerability without actually being
vulnerable, right?
Like we know how to perform vulnerability,
which is, you know, like you say certain
things, you sprinkle in certain verses,
you kind of like tie it up with a nice bow
and like, oh, you've like shared, right?
I mean, I've done that.
Yeah, no, totally.
We're all guilty of that, right?
Yeah, we've all done it because it,
you know, it's protective in some ways,
but it also precludes or it like kind of
shuts out other people from being able to
speak into our lives.
And something I'm always trying to,
when I see clients, I'm always suggesting
they do, but I think is very good for us to
do is every one of us, whether or not we're
struggling with our mental health or not to
just, we should be inviting our brothers
and sisters to enter in with us.
And so I guess a challenge or an encouragement
is to just like, like ask a person like,
hey, will you meet up with me for coffee
or lunch or whatever?
So I can share about this hard thing in my life
and ask for your support.
Like that is not fun to do.
Like it's, it's really, that is not always fun to do.
Like for me, it's much easier if somebody asks me
to have lunch that they can share.
Right.
But I think like, regardless of whether we're
struggling with mental illness or not,
that is a thing that we should all do as
believers in Christ to believe that we are
prone to weakness and struggle with our
struggles with sin or with mental illness or
with family dynamics or, you know, whatever
the case might be to really invite someone to
enter into that, I think is, is important.
So that's a, that's a.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And even invite people to support us too.
So don't just say, here's my life story.
We're good.
You know, but like, can you ask me more about
my struggles with body image or can you ask
me more about my struggles with, you know, X, Y, Z?
I think that's a good point about like maybe
sometimes giving people permission to do that.
Right.
Or like, you know, when I'm not feeling well,
I may not have the words to.
You know, kind of fully describe my experience, but
you know, I want, I want you to walk alongside
me.
And so now I'm telling, you know, now I'm saying
like, even when I withdraw, like, please come
find me, you know?
And so giving people permission a little bit
when we're able to is helpful.
Just to read a little part of this quote, I think
what makes vulnerability uncomfortable?
Like what makes it uncomfortable to receive
vulnerability?
And I'll just read the end here.
Speaking of people with mental illness or who are
suffering, we don't want to look at them because
they remind us of what we're trying to forget.
The truth about every single one of us.
And I think there's an important thing we can
acknowledge.
I think that we have a, as Christians can
acknowledge, like we're sinners, right?
We're all sinners.
We've all fallen short and we are all prone to
weakness and struggle on this side of heaven.
And so when somebody else is struggling or seeming
really visibly weak or not having it all together,
a good stance is not like, oh, they've got that
going on, but I'm okay.
But rather like, oh, like you and me are the same.
You know, it might not look exactly the same.
Like maybe I have a better outward presentation
than you, but like internally, like we are the same
in terms of our susceptibility to weakness and
struggle.
And that doesn't mean we have to be exactly where
they are, but like, this is kind of our, how we can
bear with one another.
And then the last piece, I mean, and we've talked
about this kind of sprinkled in is what promotes
vulnerability.
And so we've talked about how having regular frequent
contact with a couple people, being intentional about
sharing in real time what we're struggling with, not
just when it's all kind of wrapped up is really important.
Are we able to, you know, are there two or three people
that we've given kind of permission to be intrusive in
our lives?
Are there people that we are regularly kind of confessing
all the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, conflicts,
desires, thoughts to, um, and just really choosing a couple
people that we can do life with?
Um, yeah.
And I think that, so a couple more, um, from other sources
would be Hebrews.
Um, where it talks about, you know, let's spur one another on
towards love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together,
but encouraging one another.
And all the more as you see the day approaching.
Um, and again, just the idea of how the church is uniquely
situated to be a place of community and welcoming into
new relationships, right?
That it was such a radical thing for Jesus to say, you know,
my biological mother and brothers, who are, who are they,
right?
The people who are doing God's will.
Those are the people who are my brothers and sisters at a,
in a culture where family ties were preeminent.
Um, and when, and when Jesus heals the bleeding woman,
he doesn't just heal her, but he calls her daughter.
And there's kind of a naming of that relationship of really
welcoming her into a network of ties, um, that is really
life transforming for people.
That is part of the healing process.
Um, not just like the practical healing of X, Y, and Z,
which often is not possible anyway with mental illness.
So I think just the, um, last quote that,
or maybe not.
Oh yeah.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
The last quote again from Bonhoeffer,
cause it's a really good book on life together.
Um, it's kind of, it's kind of a long one,
but just the parts, I mean, I think the paraphrase is,
you know, often we think that it's easier to confess our sins
to God than to our brothers and sisters.
And why is that when God is so holy and just and blameless?
And maybe it's that there's a part of our confession to God
that is actually self-deception, right?
Because, and if it's easy, you know, if it's easier,
we should ask ourselves, are we self-deceiving?
And that being able to confess to another broken human being
who can reflect God's presence and forgiveness to us
is often another good litmus test of, you know,
have we actually confessed this thing
that we're really ashamed about?
And so the importance of just being vulnerable with one another.
It makes me think of the Catholics that go to the priest
and confess, and I've heard that a lot of Protesters put that down
as only between you, it only needs to be between you and God.
But this would kind of give grievance or affirmation
to the idea of going to a priest?
Or someone else?
I mean, I don't know.
Or that I think that...
Or I think that it doesn't...
That, you know, maybe a priest, but also like all of us
should be capable of receiving another person's confession of sin, right?
Because all of us have a personal relationship with Christ
and we are able to reflect God's forgiveness and presence
and be able to tolerate that confession.
So it doesn't just need to be mediated through...
It doesn't have a weakness.
It doesn't count a little weakness.
When you think of the people in the New Testament,
like Paul and all, they talked about their weaknesses.
And I think...
Their struggles, they didn't hide it.
Right.
And I think this kind of confession...
I know Bonhoeffer here is talking about confessing probably sin specifically,
but I think there's a different kind of confiding
what we have a hard time with about our mental health,
which is similar but different, right?
Like if I go to Carolyn and say,
hey, I'm really struggling with my mental health,
I'm not necessarily confessing sin in that case.
Maybe I am.
Who knows?
Like maybe both.
But, you know, there's a similar sense of like,
I'm going to choose another person who I trust
and invite them to either support me,
hold me accountable, get me out of bed in the morning,
you know, whatever it is.
And choosing not to just go it alone,
but rather invite somebody else into that,
I think is important,
whether that's sin or mental illness or both.
I think in answer to that,
another answer to that first question,
why is it often easier to confess those sins to God
than to a brother?
Because we know that we don't have to impress God.
He already knows our sins and our weaknesses,
whereas with other people,
we want to give a good impression.
Yeah.
And we want a good reputation.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
What do other, like, it's a good point,
like in terms of vulnerability,
what do you all think makes it easier or harder
to be vulnerable in a church setting
or among Christian friends?
What are things that help that
or barriers that you've maybe experienced with that?
Alicia.
So when, like, in the process of growing up, I guess,
I realized that I was, like, telling myself,
like, oh, I don't want to burden other people
as, like, a way to prevent, like, protect myself, I think.
Mm-hmm.
But I remember having a friend going through, like,
a very difficult thing for months
and then she finally told me about it
and I was, like, appalled that she, like,
I was, like, thinking to myself, like,
why hadn't she come to me earlier with this?
Mm-hmm.
And I realized, like, why,
if I'm always presenting, like, this, like,
perfect facade, like, people are going to want to be,
like, oh, you are perfect.
Like, here's all my work.
Oh, okay.
So, like, in order to, like,
love the people in my life well,
I needed to be, like, more,
like, be okay with burdening them
because then they would feel,
like, you had said,
I'd much rather be the person, like,
not to come to, like,
hearing about other people's struggles
than, like,
and so I think in order
to be able to give other people that support,
we have to, like,
let them support us too.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's the beauty of the church body
is that there, you know,
people are struggling with different things.
So it's not just, like,
so I think maybe the challenge
and invitation of, for us is, you know,
how to, like, quote, unquote,
healthy people in different ways,
walk with people who are struggling
in different ways, right,
although we're all struggling
with different things.
But it starts with kind of modeling it first, right,
that we can't expect, you know,
a culture of vulnerability
of, like, we ourselves have not
been able to show that, yeah.
And I would say 98 times out of 100,
like, someone will,
if somebody is struggling,
they're going to go to someone
who they also know struggles with something.
I mean, at least for me,
I'm, like, exactly what you said.
I'm, like, if I'm really having a rough time
with my mental health
and I think of, like,
the 10 people I know at church
I might want support from,
10 out of 10 times will be, like,
okay, has anybody experienced,
you know, they don't have to go through
someone's struggle with mental health,
but has anybody talked about struggling?
Like, has anyone walked through
something difficult?
Has anyone been vulnerable?
I mean, I don't consciously think that,
but that's who I'll probably gravitate
toward feeling more comfortable with.
And so I think we can do a lot
to encourage our friends
who are struggling with mental illness
by, even if we don't have
a longstanding struggle of depression,
being willing to say, like,
hey, you know what?
This is what I'm walking through
that's really hard.
Could you support me?
They're probably going to be
a lot more likely to reciprocate that.
Yeah.
Any other comments?
Yeah.
I think sometimes we're afraid
of a breach of confidentiality.
Hmm.
We share ourselves, like,
I've shared things with them,
so just keep it confidential,
say anything,
say anything.
And if they do that,
we'll trust them.
Hmm.
So,
and that may make us
a little more hesitant.
Hmm.
Sure, yeah.
And then they say,
yes, you know,
keep it between us,
and they do
some of it out
and tell us faster.
Sure.
Right, sure.
Yeah.
Tyler?
It reminds me of a CS Lewis quote
where he sort of says
something like,
friendship forms the moment
when you can say,
you too.
Mm-hmm.
You too,
you experience the same thing.
Oh, I saw.
You too, like,
you love Christ,
so do I.
Mm-hmm.
And it reminds me that,
you know,
God,
he discloses himself
to his people.
Mm-hmm.
And God had never done that.
We can never be friends.
Mm-hmm.
We can have a relationship
with the Lord.
Yeah.
And he comes to us
and he said,
these are my thoughts,
these are my feelings,
this is what's important to me.
Mm-hmm.
And I wonder,
if we don't do that
with other people,
do we truly have any friends
that,
in the meaning of,
the biblical meaning
of friends,
where a friend sticks closer
than a brother,
something like that
where we can go to.
Yeah.
If we're never vulnerable,
I don't think we have
any of those friends.
Mm-hmm.
The Bible clearly
is pushing us to,
like,
that's,
those are the,
our church fans,
like,
we should be that close
to each other.
Mm-hmm.
And that requires
one of those people.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I want to also mention
that,
you know,
to be vulnerable,
to be,
to be more vulnerable,
you need to repeat
it.
Mm-hmm.
And,
To repeat,
you said?
Yeah.
To repeat interaction.
Uh-huh.
It's easier.
And the other thing
is that,
sometimes people
separate
the people they,
you know,
share positive things
with negative
because they don't want
those things
to interact
one with the other.
Which I don't think
is a good idea
because when that happens,
then the person
you kind of vent on
after a while
would probably
want to shun you
because of a
weird,
like,
transparency,
of,
you know,
emotions
and just kind of
view you as like a,
so that's why
it's important
to be open
or positive
and negative
and a big,
and I guess
that's what a friendship
is, right?
I mean,
eventually,
you know,
it's not just
something you dump on
or something
you just be happy with,
but,
you know,
share ups and downs
of a life.
Yeah,
yeah,
Carolyn.
Well,
just on notes
really funny,
I'm sorry,
to add on to it,
this idea that God
also shares his sorrows
and his anger
with his people
and,
like,
the non-fun emotions.
Yeah,
you have to read
much of the Old Testament
and what,
like,
breaks God's heart
and what makes him angry
and,
like,
I think sometimes
it's hardest
to be vulnerable
with the,
like,
emotions we see
as messy
or complicated,
which often
mental illness
touches on
that whole spectrum.
So,
I think
to see God
model that
and God
having humans
model that
through that model.
And then what I would
like,
vulnerability is hard,
so it's okay
if you take it
in small steps.
There's,
like,
personality-wise
is like,
okay,
vulnerability is good,
I have to do it,
check.
Check.
And then it's just like,
that doesn't ever happen.
So it's like,
maybe in a conversation
with a friend,
like,
going one,
like,
saying one more sentence
than you would,
like,
normally feel comfortable
saying.
Or share one
thing in your life
that's not,
like,
going up on the pulpit
and having to share
with everybody.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So this is a little
unorthodox,
but I hear my,
I think my baby's
very hungry,
so I'm going to just
feed her right back
there,
and I will then
be back.
So Stephanie will just,
I'll be observing,
and then I'll be right back.
Okay.
All right.
Sounds good.
This is,
like,
I guess vulnerable life
as it is.
All right.
So I,
I think we'll
end on this
last section
of,
you know,
what is grace?
Grace and humility.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Yeah.
Oh.
Of grace and humility
in kind of our new
understanding
of what a church
can look like.
So in terms of
what it is,
right,
it's this idea
that we are all
sinners in need of grace.
We are all bearing
with one another.
It's not just the strong
helping the weak,
but we are all weak.
And in terms of
what gets in the way
of bearing with one another,
we've,
we've talked about this
throughout,
but,
you know,
one might be
being too quick
to share truths,
quote unquote.
And so a good
kind of litmus test
might be,
you know,
if some,
if you end up
saying,
you know,
well,
I'm,
I'm just being honest,
right?
That's usually a good sign
that,
you know,
maybe there are other ways
to,
to have shared that.
And,
and I think,
you know,
somebody had asked,
you know,
well,
how do I know
what the right thing
to say is?
And,
and I think sometimes
we don't know
what the right thing
to say and it's okay
to say,
you know,
well,
you know,
what you're sharing
brings to mind
X,
Y,
and Z,
either that I've
walked through
or that,
you know,
from scripture
and then asking at the end,
like,
was that helpful
or how did that land?
Like,
how was that received
for you?
Right.
And I guess that,
that is also a tricky thing
because somebody might say
that was not helpful at all
or like,
I can't,
you know,
I know that intellectually,
but I can't,
I'm not in a place
where I can receive that
right now.
But not,
but being willing to ask,
like,
what did you think of
that thing that I just shared?
I think we also,
we also worry
that when we bear
with one another
that we might,
like,
in trying to understand
their emotions,
we might be
validating poor life choices
sometimes,
right?
And so,
Elena and I had talked
about this vignette
of somebody who has
really strong anxiety
and as a result
they're kind of,
you know,
and they don't want
to seek treatment
and so they're just
kind of managing
on their own
and then they end up
self-medicating
with alcohol,
right?
And so we worry
sometimes if we're
not experiencing that,
like,
you know,
if I'm trying
to understand
your experience
of what you're
going through,
am I actually,
you know,
allowing you
to make these
kind of self-destructive
choices?
Should I just
kind of cut it off
quickly and say
stop drinking,
right?
Well,
and one,
like,
that's probably
not going to
go over well.
But I think
there's a difference
between saying,
like,
stop drinking,
it's so bad for you,
you're going to
kill yourself
versus,
you know,
it must be so hard
to be so anxious
that any sort
of escape
is tantalizing
in some way,
right?
Like,
I don't know
what it feels like
to have such a hard
time sitting,
you know,
sitting alone
with my thoughts
or going out
that I feel like
I have to turn
to something
to numb
my experience
and,
you know,
what is that
like for you,
right?
And so I think
we don't want
to lose the truth
part,
but we also
can sit with
somebody in the
messiness of
their feelings
and try to
understand how
they're making
these choices
that they are
without,
you know,
saying,
like,
oh,
well,
everything you're
doing choice-wise
is okay.
And I,
yeah,
and we've also
kind of mentioned
this before,
but I think
sometimes it's
hard to sit
with the messiness
if we're,
we,
you know,
by nature,
we really want
to be helpful,
right?
And that's a good
thing,
but I think
sometimes we
kind of treat
ministry to
each other
as kind of
like a deer
hunting thing,
right?
We're like,
bam,
we got it,
like,
we're done,
you know?
But I think
that there's
this idea
of,
like,
you know,
you have
multiple chances.
It will require
a regular
conversation,
and if something
doesn't land,
you have another
opportunity as long
as you're in a
regular relationship
with that person.
And we think
about,
you know,
the relationship
with our
children,
that it's not,
you know,
a good parent
isn't one
that,
like,
never messes
up and never
has any ruptures,
right?
Because that's
impossible,
but are we
able to repair
that well?
Are we able
to be humble
and seek
forgiveness
when things
that we've
said have
been hurtful
to the person
who's struggling?
So,
you know,
not letting,
just wanting
to fix the
problem get
in the way
of actually
being helpful.
In terms
of ways
that help
us,
like,
promote
grace and
humility
and bearing
with one
another,
I think
we had talked
about a couple
of different
categories.
So one is
something that
y'all have
mentioned,
right,
which is
practical needs.
And there's a
verse in
James 2
about,
suppose a
brother or
sister is
without clothes
and daily
food.
If one of
you says
to them,
go in
peace,
keep warm
and well
fed,
but does
nothing about
their physical
needs,
what good
is that?
And we've
talked about
this through
the Sunday
school,
you know,
but the
compassion
that we
might more
instinctively
show for
people who
have had
heart attacks
or strokes,
right,
how does
that translate
into people
who are
struggling
with depression
and anxiety?
And so,
you know,
something like
diabetes,
right,
if you're
not making
good,
you know,
there's the
genetic
predisposition,
there's diet,
and so if
somebody lands
in the hospital
for, like,
their diabetes
going out of
control,
we don't just
show up at
the hospital
and say,
like, well,
you should
have lowered
your blood
sugar,
right?
We kind of
recognize that
they're at a
place where
they just need
to receive
support,
and maybe
later on,
part of their
work towards
recovery and
maintaining a
healthy lifestyle
includes,
again,
some of these
truths,
but is this
the right time
and place to
share that with
them?
And I think
it's, you know,
I think mental
illness is
slightly different
than kind of
like breast
cancer or
heart disease
because there
are no,
like,
5Ks,
there are no
galas,
well,
maybe there
are,
but it's not
as common,
like 5Ks and
galas and
celebrations
to fundraise for
that because
the people who
are struggling
with it are
often, you know,
don't have the
energy to
organize those
sorts of things,
and their
family members
may also not
have the energy
to do that,
and so there's a
way, again,
in which kind
of the shame
and isolation
of mental
illness can
get in the
way of the
visibility of
how we are
able to
support.
And so in
terms of other
practical needs,
I love some of
the examples that
you all shared,
right, like,
is it child
care?
So, you know,
you can go out
on a date or
you can go to
therapy.
Is it somebody
who's so anxious
they have a hard
time going to
small group or
showing up in
church, right?
Do we drive that
person to church?
Do we sit with
them so they
don't have to
feel alone?
It might look
like helping
them navigate
treatment, which
we talked about
last week, can
be really tricky.
So can we
help them find
a therapist when
they don't have
enough energy to
pick up the
phone?
Can we, and
then in terms
of presence,
right, are we
checking in
regularly?
Are we texting?
Are we calling?
There's spiritual
help, too, in
terms of, you
know, somebody who
might be so
incapacitated by
their depression
that they can't
open the Bible?
So do we sit
alongside them and
choose a song to
read together or a
song to sing
together?
Can we pray with
them when they
don't have words to
be able to offer
the Lord?
And I think we
just want to, you
know, if you're not
in the mental health
field or if you
haven't struggled
with yourself, I
think that there's
some, like, mental
illness can feel
really mystifying and
very other.
But I think, you
know, so then it's
sometimes hard as a
person outside of
it to be, like,
how can I help in
this instance?
I don't even know
the first thing about
it, right?
And I think we, as
like professionals,
would say, like, there
are, like, a lot of
boundaries and limits
to what we can do,
right?
Like, we can't spend
a whole day with one
person, but a friend
can.
We can't, you know,
offer prayer unless
it, well, yeah, we
generally don't offer
prayer, right, but a
friend can, right?
And we don't text to
check in.
So I think there's
a lot about
friendship itself that
you all have
mentioned of just
being with that is
really important and
to not minimize that
because that is
something that
professionals can't
do.
And I think there's
kind of, like, the
over, like, well,
anyways, I think that
sometimes, yeah,
relationships in
general, trusting
relationships, like
therapy is one form
of a trusting
relationship, but you
need, like, a whole
network of them in
order to really
thrive.
And then I think
the last thing is
that, you know, as
y'all have kind of
shared your
experiences, right, that
like when one person
is struggling, it
really takes a whole
family to come around
them.
And it's not just
like, oh, here's this
person who's struggling,
I'm going to be this
one person who saves
them, right?
Like, we have to also
be mindful of our
messiah complex and
really invite other
people, widen that
circle of, like,
support networks for
them.
We're inviting other
people to walk with
them, right?
And sometimes it may
be that the person
who's struggling with
mental illness can't
get out the door, you
know, doesn't show up
like, and walking with
that person may be
walking with a family
member who is, you
know, kind of that
direct caregiver.
So just kind of
thinking about ways
that we can kind of
practically and
presence-wise support
people who are
struggling.
So we kind of ran
through that last
section.
But any, like,
thoughts, comments,
questions about what
it looks like to bear
with, what's made it
harder or easier,
suggestions and what
we can do in church?
Uh-huh?
I thought something
that was really
insightful to me is
the, like, throughout
this whole class, is
just being willing to
ask questions.
I think that I'm
really nervous to
ask people questions
because I don't want
them to be offended
by me asking and,
like, not asking so
that I can, like,
you know, understand
and, like, tell all
these people or,
or, you know, like,
but it's truly that I
can understand and
help or just listen.
So I'm still kind of
perplexed by that,
like, how do we know
what questions do I ask?
And I know a lot of
that in the Holy Spirit.
And even just, like,
reading the situation,
but it is still kind of
unnerving to know,
like, how much is too
much, and especially
with different people
experiencing different
types of mental illness,
like, which ones are,
I don't know.
But that was helpful
to just know that
questions are welcome.
I guess.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's
helpful to acknowledge,
like, I don't quite know
what to say or ask in
the situation, so feel
free to let me know if
you don't want to talk
about it right now,
right?
Like, can you tell me
more about X, Y, and Z?
Yeah.
So I think just coming
from a place of curiosity
is usually pretty welcome.
And then people will
let you know, like,
no, don't ask me that.
I don't want to talk
about that right now.
That's going to, you
know, worsen my mental
health right now,
or something like that.
And sometimes even
asking, like, what do
you, and somebody
might not know,
which is okay,
but it's always not
bad to ask, like,
oh, what is the best
way for you to be
supported?
Like, do you need
someone to, like,
you know, be
distracted and go out
to fro-yo?
Do you need someone
to, you know,
stay on the phone
with you?
Yeah.
A lot of times
what somebody might
need might not be,
like, diving deep
into their trauma
per se, but rather,
like, it's never
bad to ask, like,
oh, do you need
to be distracted?
Do you want to
talk about it?
You know, and then
seeing if they have
an idea of, like,
what might be
most helpful.
You could just be
doing something else
and go out.
Yeah.
Like, what will be?
Yeah.
Having dinner
with friends and
who is not
conflict with your phone.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I feel like those
things are, and that's
so much of what the
church can offer
that, like, a
therapist or
psychiatrist can't
offer, right?
Like, someone comes
to our office, we're
specifically there to
talk about things
that are hard.
We can't be like,
oh, let's go to
fro-yo, right?
But, like, that's,
I would love that.
You know, which
wouldn't be very
ethical, but that is
something that is
needed, like, just,
like, feeling normal,
spending time, having
presence, and I feel
like that's so much
of what the church
really can't
over.
It's so easy,
and I'm proud all
the time.
It's too overwhelming.
I mean, isn't there
a verse in
progress that's a
very hard,
do with the,
maybe the spirit
do with,
very hard,
do with the spirit?
I don't know, but,
um,
a joyful heart is
good medicine?
That's true,
and there's another
one.
I don't know.
Sorrow pushes the
spirit, or something
like that.
And I think there's
a balance, right?
Like, at times, we
might be in a place
where we're like,
all right, Carolyn,
I need to tell you
all about my sorrow
in life, right?
Like, and we, that
is necessary to do
sometimes, and there
might be times when
I'm like, poor
Carolyn, just because
I'm looking directly
at you, get all my
hand.
I'm like, yeah.
Then there might be
times where, like,
I've had such a
hard week, I just
need to watch Great
British Baking Show
for three hours,
you know?
And, like, there
might be different
things, and I think
within a friendship,
a balance is helpful
of, you know, what
we might need at
different times.
Yeah.
I think it's very
important, because
there's really no
one's, you know,
there's no one's
solution to the
problem.
It's a very
terrible problem.
I mean, I think it's
important to, you
know, have these
sessions, you
talk about these
things, and, you
know, one of
the things I have
a big proponent of
is that we can
learn from each
other, and that
people who have
actually suffering
from mental illness
have a lot to
offer, and that's
about what works
and what doesn't
work the same.
That's why I said,
you know, I think
support groups are
very important, and
you know, obviously
at the end of the
day, I mean, you
need medicine,
but don't deny
that either.
You know, so
you want to
remember that.
And the other
thing is that once,
you know, mental
illness is not a
all-house switch.
So, you know, a lot
of stuff they're
talking about is
actually the
lighter end.
of the time, but
there are people
who are at points
where we need to
get help, and we
need to really
emphasize that,
because one of the
things I find is
that when somebody
has anxiety, a
Christian, I have
a non-Christian
friend, you know,
one of the things
they say is, you
know, don't worry
about it, you're
still worsening,
you'll save it
that person.
When you say that,
you're kind of
slapping them in the
face, you're kind
of saying that,
you know, what
you're not, you
know, what your
feelings are real.
So, you know,
but again, it's a
spectrum.
I think it's very
important to really
remember that, and
we do need that
for professional
help, whether
medications or
therapy or
combination of
that.
So Bruce, I was
thinking of it,
1722, a cheerful
heart is good
medicine, but a
crush, they
recognize that
development.
Yeah, and
there's, it's
always good to, I
mean, maybe you
don't have to be so
explicit to say, oh,
do you want me to
be cheerful or
crushed?
But, you know,
sometimes it's good
to kind of, even
day by day or
within a single
day, the needs of
someone with a
mental illness
might change from
like, I need
someone to sit in
silence with me
while I cry, to
then like, oh, I
need to go to
movies, you know,
and watch Marvel
or, you know,
whatever.
So like, yeah,
both of those are
so important to
keep in mind,
absolutely.
And I think that's
why the, like, again,
the relationship is
so important, right?
So you think about
like your close
family members, like
sometimes you even
know what they're
going to say before
they're going to
say it because you
know their patterns.
And so for
somebody you walked
alongside with
mental illness for
a while, you know,
kind of like the
ebb and flow, right?
You know, like,
maybe, you know,
that when they look
back on periods
of depression,
they're like, yeah,
I really struggled
with keeping a
clean house, like
all the dishes
piled up and I
never left the
house and I
never like took
a shower, right?
And so maybe
as you've seen
that through a
couple of episodes,
the next time
they're in a, you
know, a depressive
episode, those are
things that you end
up suggesting or
doing with them or
for them with their
permission, right?
Because you like,
because maybe in the
midst of their
depression, they don't
know what they
actually need, but
you're able to kind
of hold that memory
for them and say
like, oh, like in
the past, it seems
like that's been
helpful.
Is that something
that would be
helpful now?
But that requires
kind of, again,
an intimacy of
knowing what does
that person respond
to.
And to the point
about like support
groups and organized
support, we've had,
I mean, one of the
things that has come
from this class, like
a few different times
is folks have given
feedback about like
having some sort of
ongoing space
in the church to
talk about mental
illness and get
support.
So we, yeah, I
think that those are
great suggestions.
So we are going to
start a conversation
with the, we'll talk
with the elders and
kind of see what that
might look like or,
and we've kind of
considered ourselves
what that might look
like.
So I guess stay
tuned.
That could be
something that might
be coming up.
Yeah, depending.
So thanks for the
suggestions too.
Yeah.
Are there other,
yeah, just,
I know we've
covered a lot
today, just
lingering questions
or experiences.
Yeah.
I think we'll look
into peer-to-peer
support training.
And so, and I'm
sure other people
would be happy to
too.
And just to have
a community where
people are being
willing to be
vulnerable and
support each other.
It doesn't have to
be a depressing
sad.
I mean, it can be
life-changing
community, fun,
and, you know,
really, truly
fellowship and,
you know, being
there for each
other.
Yeah.
And I think, like,
being able to walk
alongside that
spectrum when it's
such a chronic
thing is so
important, right?
So it doesn't
always, to your
point, it doesn't
always have to be
like this really
sad, like, let's
get together and
talk about all the
terrible things.
But sometimes it's
about having, like,
a support group to
celebrate when, you
know, somebody has
been able to, like,
do, you know, X,
Y, and Z.
That was a goal
that was really
hard, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
But taking those,
yeah, taking those
moments to celebrate.
And I think the AA
model has, like,
you know, where it's
like, you know, 24
hours after you
abstain from an
addiction, right?
You get this visual
reminder, like, yes,
you've been able to
do it.
And then, you know,
and then they have,
like, these regular
kind of sobriety
chips.
And it's not, and,
you know, it's
understanding sometimes
people fall off the
bandwagon, but, like,
we're going to
celebrate in the
moment, you know,
for the victories
that are happening
right now.
Yeah.
Or this medication
worked for you.
Like, we've tried,
you tried five
medications, and now
this one works.
Like, there is
something to celebrate.
And recognizing, like,
people with mental
illness are not only
their mental illness.
Like, that's a part
of their experience.
But there's still a
whole person to get
to know and be in
relationship with.
And it's going to
include a lot of
ups and downs.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
So it's 10-20.
Okay.
Well, if anyone
has questions, we'll
stick around.
But thank you so
much for being part
of this class.
This was, yeah, we
so appreciate all of
you sharing and
engaging.
And, yeah, it was
really wonderful.
Thank you.