They're favorite of all the different doctrines we've been talking about, which is really what we call perseverance of the saints.
!
So, if we...
This deals with a lot of different issues that we have as believers.
We're dealing with assurance of salvation.
If our salvation is real, then how are we supposed to know that it's real?
What if it's false?
Etc.
But on your sheet, again, every week I've been trying to give you like a historical quotation that fits the things that we've been talking about.
And I really like this one.
This has to do with what we're talking about tonight.
But Augustine wrote,
The grace of God, which both begins a man's faith and which enables it to persevere until the end,
is not given according to merits, but is given according to his own most secret and at the same time most righteous, wise, benevolent will.
He makes us live.
He makes us to persevere even until the end in order that for everlasting we may live.
Who could be ordained to eternal life save by the gift of perseverance?
So, kind of out of the gate.
This shows you how old this doctrine kind of goes.
So, yeah, it existed way before John Calvin ever entered the scene.
So, think about the best way to do this.
So, tonight, okay, so before I go to the next slide, let's remember where we've been and where we are tonight.
It's, again, people who may say that they believe in two or three of the points that we're talking about.
What I've been trying to show you is they're all interconnected.
They're all, like, links in the same chain.
You can't really understand and believe one and not the other because they're the inevitable consequence of what you believe in one of them.
And so, if we connect it all together, you know, man is fallen.
Man is, fallen man is depraved.
He has no ability to help himself or change himself.
And that's self-evident, too.
That's just scripture.
But you ever try to change yourself by yourself?
It doesn't really work that well.
And even if you manage to cleanse the outside, inwardly you become prideful, arrogant, and then you're more like a Pharisee than a humble believer.
So, we need God to save us.
We have no ability to change our natures.
And we're dead.
We're in our trespasses.
Our hearts are corrupted by evil.
Our minds are depraved.
And so, we need someone to save us.
So, that gets to elections.
So, the Father, before the foundation of the world, chose unconditionally out of his grace.
So, whenever we have that not fair feeling, we have to go back to that no one deserves salvation.
That we're all at the mercy of the king.
And if he chooses to show you mercy, then that's a blessing.
We don't deserve it.
We only deserve judgment.
And so, the Father chose.
The Father elected a people.
And then he gave them to the Son to save.
Right?
So, when we say Christ died on the cross, I showed you all the different verses to talk about how he died for his people.
How in John 17, he died for those at whom the Father gave him.
And died for the elect.
Paid the price for their sin.
And how we talked about how the atonement was either limited in its power or limited in its extension.
And we were trying to argue that it really is limited in its extension.
Because it meant it saved exactly who it was meant to save.
Which is namely the elect.
And so, I think we spent a good bit of time saying that Christ's blood is such a precious thing that to waste it would be, you know, the most heinous sin ever.
That he purchased exactly what he intended to purchase with his blood.
And got the reward of his suffering.
So then, the Father chose them.
The Son dies for them.
And then resurrects for them.
Then the Spirit is the one who comes and, like, applies that work to us.
He regenerates our dead souls.
He gives us a new nature.
Makes us new creations.
And the outcome of regeneration is faith.
Like, the consequence of that.
The dead man comes alive.
And the air he breathes is faith and repentance.
So, he's converted after he's born again.
So, that's what we talked about.
I think, you know, like last time.
So, getting into tonight, what we're basically arguing now is that if God truly has saved you.
Like, if the Father has elected you, the Son has paid your price, the price of your sin on the cross, and the Spirit has regenerated you, you will not lose that salvation.
And it's kind of called today the once saved, always saved thing.
But it's sort of, I've heard that abuse so many times.
It's like, I just don't even want to hear that phrase anymore.
But, it's true.
But it also sort of, I guess, cheapens the doctrine a little bit because it's so much more than just that.
It's so much more than just, yeah, once you're saved, you're always saved.
And so, remember, Roman Catholics, Methodists, a lot of the Church of God, charismatic movement, they would all say that, no, you can lose your salvation.
And if that's true, if it started with you.
If you played some role in it, if you kind of met God halfway, then, yeah, you can walk away.
But the point is, it did not start with you, and it won't end with you.
So, let's see here, the next slide.
But tonight kind of deals with, and this thing's in the way, hold on.
All right, here we go.
Tonight, these are kind of dealing with some of the questions.
Have I been given the gift of faith only to squander it?
Is the presence of sin seem to be too powerful in my life that it feels as though I am without Christ?
How can I be sure that I've, sorry, this is such small print to me.
How can I be sure that having started a new life in Christ, I will walk in Him to the end?
Is it possible for God to keep me up, keep up His end of the bargain, but for me to not keep up mine?
Can I lose my salvation and fall away from Christ?
Am I the only one who feels this way?
It kind of deals with those sorts of questions.
So, we'll get to this in a minute, but the doctrine of assurance is different than what we're talking about tonight.
It's connected to it.
But there's a lot of reasons why genuine believers doubt their salvation.
Here's just some of them, okay?
A conscious awareness of sin, especially indwelling sin.
Persistent disobedience and backsliding.
So, yes, it is possible for believers to revert back to their old life, to fall into old temptations, even for a long season.
But what we always see in Scripture and self-evident in our own lives is that God doesn't really put up with that too long.
He uses something to discipline us, and it brings us back, you know, to Himself.
And we see a lot of people in Scripture just falling back into sin.
And so, yeah, so if there's secret sin in your life, God's just not going to allow you to have peace until you've confessed it to Him and dealt with it in the right way.
This is a big one, false conceptions of God's character and the gospel.
So, yeah, a lot of people just don't understand who God is.
They don't know what the Scripture says about the character of God.
They don't really know much about the gospel, or they just pray to prayer, and they're trying to be a good person and go to church.
And so that's huge.
I mean, a lot of the students that I, you know, talk to over the years, they are just so ignorant about who God is and ignorant about what happened to them when they were saved.
And so much of that rustling comes from, again, just not knowing the truth.
So once they're informed, they're like, oh, wow, yes.
So a lack of clarity on key doctrines such as, whoops, I was supposed to say regeneration.
My bad.
Justification, adoption, et cetera.
So if you even understood one of those doctrines, justification, adoption, you'd really realize, like, how secure your salvation is if you just actually understood some of those things.
Lack of clarity on circumstances of somebody's conversion.
So, in other words, like, some of us have this story, but a lot of us don't.
We have that.
We know that moment, that time, and that place that we were saved.
And it really did start at that point.
Like, our life began shifting in a different direction.
But a lot of people don't have that.
A lot of people don't have, that's what we would call the Damascus Road experience.
Like, you were going about your day, and then Jesus just had this dramatic encounter with you.
And write the date down in your Bible, all that.
And a lot of people don't have that.
And so they wrestle because they just don't know if it ever started to begin with.
And the big pushback on that one is a lot of people have that date, but they don't have any present righteousness in their life.
They're like, yeah, I was saved.
But there's nothing presently right now that shows that they ever believed it to begin with.
And so it gives them a false sense of security.
And we're not told to do that anywhere in the Scripture, to mark down the day you were saved.
And it's okay if you do that, but it just shouldn't be held up as the norm for people.
And my favorite quote about this, it was a long time ago.
I was struggling with assurance when I was in college.
And back then, it's back when you still listen to the radio.
And I had a station in Delonga that actually had John MacArthur on it.
And he preached through, there's a series called Myths About Salvation.
But he had six of those messages that were about reasons people lack assurance.
And then three messages that were about tests of assurance to see that if you are a believer.
But in that series, he was addressing like the circumstances thing.
And he said, not knowing I'm a Christian because I can't remember the day I was saved,
is like saying, I can't remember my birthday, so I don't know if I'm alive right now.
So I was like, that's really good.
So you actually know you're alive.
That's like the point.
Yeah, exactly.
So if you can't pinpoint the date, that's okay.
But a lot of people tend to struggle with that.
But looking to the wrong kind of emotional or circumstantial experience.
So a lot of people are just basically saying, if I'm saved, it should feel this way.
I should always be happy.
I always should be joyful.
I should never have any more struggles.
And that's just like a wrong kind of emotional response, circumstantial.
And obviously just attacked by Satan or those who serve him.
Those are real things.
So I thought it would be encouraging to see just at least a couple people who struggle with assurance,
people that we look up to.
And John Bunyan, who wrote Pogba's Progress, he definitely struggled with assurance.
He said, my heart was at times exceedingly hard.
If I would have given a thousand pounds for a tear, I could not shed one.
Oh, the diligence of Satan.
Oh, the desperateness of a man's heart.
I feared that this wicked sin of mine might be that sin unpardonable.
Oh, no one knows the terrors of those days but myself.
I found it hard to work now to pray to God because the despair was swallowing me up.
So there was a long season where he really battled with that.
And likewise, Spurgeon at times fell into dark depression and doubts about his own salvation.
And he said, I'm a subject of depression so fearful that I hope none of you ever get to such extremes of wretchedness as I go to.
But I always get back again by this.
I know I trust in Christ.
I have no reliance but in him.
And if he falls, I shall fall with him.
But if he does not, I shall not.
Because he lives, I shall live also.
And I spring to my legs again to fight with my depressions of spirit and get victory through it.
And so may you do.
And so you must.
So, yeah, good words.
So let's get into our outline.
But, yeah, real quick, before we start this, let me see.
Yeah, I do have a place for that.
Okay.
Let's just get through our outline.
Because I just want you to start seeing some of the scripture.
But point number one there, that God's elect can never be lost.
For it is God who has saved them.
And they will be kept by his power until the end.
Those whom God has predestined, called, justified, he will glorify.
Christ has paid the price for all their sin, given them his perfect righteousness.
And now they are united to him by faith.
The Holy Spirit has regenerated their souls, sealed them, given himself as a guarantee of their salvation,
and assures them of their eternal inheritance.
Therefore, the elect are assured of eternal life the moment they believe,
and can live joyfully for his glory.
So this was actually something I never saw before.
But, like, the definitive language that John uses to say, hey, if this happened, this actually happened.
This wasn't like it might happen in the future.
Like, if you actually believe in the Son of God, if you actually place your faith in him,
you will have eternal life.
There's not like, well, hopefully you will, if you hang on.
It's like the definitive language.
Just look at some.
So, Jesus says, Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness.
Even so, must the Son of Man be lifted up.
And so whoever believes will in him have eternal life.
And then he says there, right, for God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish.
So, John 5,
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word,
and believes in him who sent me,
has eternal life.
And does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life.
So, the moment you believed,
you were passed from death to life.
Like, it's just like that, simultaneously.
It's not a,
well, you can believe,
but maybe you won't pass from death to life.
Jesus says,
everyone who believes has eternal life.
Here's one of our personal favorites, right?
John 10,
My sheep,
there's that elect idea,
hear my voice,
I know them,
and they follow me.
I give eternal life to them,
and they will never perish.
No one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father,
who has given them to me,
is greater than all.
And no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand.
I and the Father are one.
So, that's a very clear,
I mean,
I don't know how you could argue around that,
but,
I'll not read all of Romans 8 there,
but basically the whole chapter of Romans 8,
kind of speaks to this very idea,
that if you truly are saved,
if God has worked salvation in your heart,
you believe everything that Paul has written to this point,
then you will not be condemned.
You will be justified.
That if he has indeed saved you,
he saved you forever.
And,
and go to verse maybe 37.
Knowing all these things,
we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
For I am sure,
you could write the word,
confident,
persuaded,
that neither death nor life,
nor angels,
nor rulers,
things present,
nor things to come,
nor powers,
nor height,
nor debt,
or anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God,
that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So,
nothing will separate us.
So,
so much in that.
Let me,
pick a couple more here.
Since I referenced it earlier,
look at Ephesians 1,
but talking about the Holy Spirit.
In him,
you also,
after listening to the message of the truth,
the gospel of your salvation,
having also believed,
you were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
who was given as a pledge of our inheritance,
with a view to the redemption of God's own possession,
to the praise of his glory.
Yep,
and we have the very famous Philippians 6 there,
I'm confident of this very thing,
that he who began the good work in you,
will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
So,
on and on.
Keep you from stumbling down there in June.
You can be kept by the Father,
to be blameless.
So,
all right,
yeah,
first Peter,
then we'll stop after this one.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who according to his great mercy has called us.
There it is.
There's that effectual call of the Holy Spirit,
the irresistible call,
called us to be born again,
to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable,
undefiled,
and will not fade away,
reserved in heaven for you,
who are being protected by the power of God through faith for salvation,
ready to be revealed in the last time.
So,
I remember studying that verse 5 a long time ago,
but I remember the word protected means like set a guard over.
So,
think about like a military guard washing over,
something.
That's what it is.
And of course,
we see that go wrong a lot.
Guards fall asleep,
they get bribed,
they get lazy,
they're just not as good as the people trying to kill the other people.
But imagine like an omnipotent,
omniscient God setting watch over you,
and nothing is going to take away what is being protected.
So,
pause.
Any questions?
We just go to the next part.
Okay.
Or comments,
whatever.
But,
I think we all love finding as many scriptures as we can about that kind of stuff,
because there are everywhere.
These are just a few I picked out and put on here.
So,
very comforting.
But that also just brings a lot of questions.
So,
this idea of the falling away of some.
Okay.
So,
we all know that guy or that girl who,
who apparently at one point got saved.
Maybe you were involved in that,
having conversations with them.
And for a while,
they,
they look great.
They kind of quit some of the bad stuff they were doing.
Um,
they kind of like clean themselves up and stop cussing,
stop drinking or whatever,
stop sleeping around.
And,
and they're really steady.
They come around for a period of time,
but then something happens and they slowly just start to go back,
drift back to where they were before.
And before you know it,
they're back in the old sin again.
They've kind of concluded that God's not really worth it.
And they never come back.
Um,
I've got a list of people like that in my head.
And,
uh,
so maybe that's somebody you've met before.
And so what happened?
Um,
so here it is.
There is a falling away of some who outwardly profess to be believers.
If this falling away persists,
meaning it's not just like a temporary,
temporary struggle they have,
right?
Like they continue.
It persists.
It goes on.
It doesn't stop.
It shows that their faith was not genuine,
that they were never born of God.
Scripture warns.
So there's a lot of warnings,
right?
That there are many who will come into the body of Christ for a time,
partake of all the good and wonderful blessings that are part of the church,
but eventually will turn away.
It's impossible for those who have heard,
tasted,
and rejected the gospel to return to repentance.
This is because the only message that can save them,
they have rejected.
An individual must continue in the faith to truly show evidence of being regenerated.
Therefore,
there are numerous warnings in God's word to professing believers to not deliberately continue in their sinful lifestyles and to walk away from Christ.
If a professing believer's faith be genuine,
it must endure and persevere to the end to be saved.
So,
so in other words,
people come around the church,
they enjoy the friendships,
they enjoy the community,
they enjoy the help and service that comes along with it.
But at some point they fall away and we'll look at some of these here.
But Jesus kind of warns,
right?
In John 8,
if,
if you continue in my word,
then you are truly disciples of mine.
So meaning that your obedience and your love to me must continue if you're going to prove to be one of my disciples.
So there's another warning.
The trustworthy saying for,
if we have died with him,
we will also live with him if we endure.
See that?
We also will reign with him.
If we deny him,
he also will deny us.
So there's this idea of him just writing to people saying like,
yeah,
if our faith endures,
it will,
it's proven,
right?
That you will have all these promises.
So this is a very well known one.
And Hebrews 6,
it's one that really troubled me a long time ago.
I think,
I can't remember if I preached on this in Hebrews or if Nathan did or,
but,
but after studying it,
I actually feel a lot better about it now.
But to give you a little bit of context though,
in Hebrews,
we don't know who wrote it,
Paul,
Apollos,
somebody else.
Um,
but he's got three different kinds of Jews in mind when he's writing Hebrews.
He's gotten those who,
he's addressing those who have left what they were in.
And now they're Christians.
Now they're followers of Jesus.
They see Jesus as the Messiah.
They see all the promises of God being yes in Jesus.
So they,
they're,
they're converted.
So they're genuine Christians.
There's another group that's on the fence and they don't know if they're going to go toward Jesus or go back to the old ways.
And then there's another group of people who are just like,
no,
come back.
Like,
don't,
don't go to Jesus.
Remain here.
And so it's helpful to think about when you read Hebrews,
what audience he's sort of talking to.
But there's our,
there are warnings in here.
So remember,
he's trying to warn people,
don't go back.
Don't go back to the old ways.
And if you're on the fence,
like come this way,
you've heard the truth.
So here we go.
Hebrews six for in the case of those who have once been enlightened and who have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away.
It is impossible to renew them again to repentance.
Since they again crucify themselves to the son of God and put him to open shame for the ground that drinks the rain,
which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for the sake of who it is till receives a blessing from God.
So meaning if your faith is real,
if it falls on good ground and it yields a crop,
right,
then you'll receive a blessing from God if it's real.
But in contrast,
if it yields thorns and thistles,
it is worthless and close to being cursed and ends up being burned.
Okay,
so stop there.
So again,
there are people who have come around,
they've heard the gospel,
they've been a part of the church community,
they've cleaned themselves up on the outside a little bit,
they love all the,
you know,
the good stuff that comes with the fellowship and all that,
but eventually,
they turn away,
they fall away.
And what he's saying is like,
if they've come around the gospel and they flirted with it and made a little of it,
and kind of like,
yeah,
whatever,
it's just a means to an end,
and then they fall away,
then what other message is going to save them?
That's the only message.
And they've kind of hardened themselves against that message.
So it's,
to come back to repentance could be impossible,
humanly speaking,
right?
What if you,
so you couldn't have like,
Go ahead.
So,
if someone is not saved,
and they were to like,
show signs of that,
and they fall away,
it would like,
bottom line,
they would not be able to like,
be saved.
More or less.
So meaning like,
if in fact,
they have,
they've heard the gospel,
they've heard the truth,
they've been around good Bible teaching,
and,
and then they go back to their former way of life,
after hearing all of that,
after,
after being given so much,
then,
at least on their end,
it'll be impossible for them to come back.
True.
That's,
that's a verse that hangs over this one.
And,
and I'm,
and I'm saying that these people were never believers to begin with.
It means that they was just a false belief because of the last verse.
Okay?
Look at verse nine.
It says,
but,
beloved,
we are convinced of better things concerning you,
and the things that accompany salvation.
Though we are speaking in this way.
So meaning like,
like,
I'm convinced that the person that I just explained to you is not you.
I'm convinced that you actually have received true salvation.
You see that?
It makes a distinction.
Like,
even though I'm speaking in this manner,
I'm convinced that those of you who are reading this are truly saved.
You,
the things that belong to you really are the things of salvation.
So he's,
he's speaking in a certain way to,
to that audience who's thinking about going back,
or are on the fence of saying,
don't,
don't do it.
Like,
like,
if you harden your heart towards Christ,
if you get that close and then you walk away,
then it's,
humanly speaking,
right?
Very much.
Talk about that.
Yes.
Um,
well,
go ahead and look at the next page.
You can look at another part in Hebrews.
He says,
for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful expectation of judgment and fury of fire that will consume the
adversary.
So there's an idea like,
look,
if you continue,
um,
to go down those sinful ways after receiving the knowledge of the truth.
Now here's a big distinction.
Okay.
He's not talking about temporarily backsliding.
So not like that.
We all have done.
We've gone through seasons where we really struggled in our walk with the Lord.
He's not referring to that.
He's talking about like,
you get on that,
that slippery slope and you don't stop.
You just keep going and you don't repent.
You don't come back to the truth.
He's saying,
he's warning them.
Don't like,
don't go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth.
Uh,
and then first John two 19 very,
I think is a good commentary on these verses.
Okay.
John wrote,
they went out from us.
I mean,
they left us like people that were in part of the body left.
They went away,
but they were not really of us for if they had been with us,
they would have remained with us,
but they went out so that it would be shown that they are,
are not of us.
So,
um,
yeah,
so I hope that gives you some good commentary.
So in,
in short,
there are false converts in the church.
Um,
and it's the job of every pastor to just push at that and to really show like,
Hey,
are you really in it for Christ?
There are scriptures that have warnings like that to like,
make sure that this isn't you,
because if you,
if it is,
then a lot of people are going to just,
you know,
end up leaving and,
uh,
walking away from the faith.
Um,
so during the great awakening,
when it seemed like a lot of people were being saved,
right?
Tons of people coming and weeping and giving their lives to Christ.
Um,
well,
many,
many months and years later,
uh,
a lot of those people who had had that experience,
a lot of them started going back to their old lifestyles,
right?
And so John Wesley,
who was an Arminian,
you know,
he would look at that and be like,
well,
they had it and then they lost it.
Okay.
Like they were saved and they fell away.
Um,
as we're guys like Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards are like,
no,
they never really ever had it.
They,
they went through some outward emotional experience.
They cleaned themselves up on the outside,
but like they did not persevere.
And,
um,
so Edwards wrote at least two books.
One was called the true believer and one was called religious affections.
Meaning like if someone is truly born again,
the best evidence that they really are,
are holy affections for God that they didn't have before.
And so they were kind of like saying,
yeah,
they,
they went out from us because they were never really of us.
So I,
I laugh at this verse because many years ago when me and Nathan,
they were on Facebook,
there was a group called Calvinism,
the group that chooses you.
And someone joined it.
And then they posted,
um,
just to prove that none of this is true.
I'm going to join this with my free will and I'm going to leave it by my own free will.
Then they left.
And I was like,
dang,
okay.
Then like maybe an hour later,
I looked again and someone had wrote below that.
They went out from us,
but they were never really of us.
Yeah.
And then I was like,
oh,
what a,
what a comeback.
Glad I'm not on Facebook anymore.
Anyway.
Uh,
so pause.
Any questions?
Those are hard verses.
Yeah.
In essence.
Yeah.
Like,
like the spirit is the one taking the truth and showing it to them.
And,
and if they look at that and go,
no,
thanks.
Like,
like,
like in time,
then,
then yeah.
Like they've rejected the message of the gospel.
The Holy spirit was showing them.
Right.
And that,
that goes back to what we talked about last time is like,
there's that general call of the gospel that goes out to all people and it can be rejected,
but to the elect,
God makes it irresistible to them and he overcomes their dead soul,
their unbelief and all that,
and actually cause them to believe.
so yeah.
So this idea of like,
I guess you would call the blasphemy of the Holy spirit,
like that,
that idea,
um,
resisting.
So all that's kind of seen here,
but,
but our,
I'll call them our opponents,
not our enemies,
but our opponents would,
would use verses like this to be like,
yeah,
you see,
like you can lose your salvation.
And what we're trying to say is for every one of those scriptures,
there's like 10 others that say you can't.
And,
and understood in the right way,
those fall into place.
Like,
yeah,
there's warnings.
Like,
like,
don't think you're a Christian and then just be living in open sin all the time.
Like that's,
don't deceive yourself.
Make sure what you have is the real thing.
And,
uh,
so it can definitely,
but there's those warnings,
like not to go back.
Don't go back down that sinful path.
Like,
continue on,
uh,
and endure.
So,
yeah.
Uh,
so this gets to,
yeah.
So,
you can't choose Jesus.
And,
if,
and you can't,
and you can't follow him and it's just true.
You respond to him.
You respond to the Holy Spirit's calling.
As a believer,
you mean?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So,
yeah.
I will try.
Um,
I know you were here last time.
So,
that's a lot of what we talked about.
So,
go back and read over those notes.
So,
if,
God has chosen to show mercy to you,
and if you are one of his elect,
at some point in your life,
like he's going to use that gospel message to bring regeneration to you.
He's going to.
It's not a question of if,
but when,
really.
And when he does,
um,
the outcome of that will be faith in Christ.
Like,
you're going to respond in faith.
But,
as we were saying earlier,
we only have faith because he's raised us from the dead.
We couldn't do it before that.
And so,
remember the imagery?
Like,
if you've seen a,
a dead body,
a corpse,
there's no air moving through that body.
But,
if it's brought to life,
and there's air flowing out of that person,
from their lungs,
and all that.
So,
spiritually speaking,
when it says that we are dead in our trespasses,
that Greek word means corpse.
It means like nothing's moving.
We're dead,
spiritually.
And so,
what Jesus does is he calls us,
well,
like Lazarus,
right?
Lazarus,
come out.
Like a supernatural power that brings us from death to life.
And the Holy Spirit regenerates our dead soul,
makes us alive,
so that faith is the outcome of that new birth.
Does that make sense?
Like,
like the air you breathe,
if you come back alive,
like faith is like the air we breathe when our souls are brought back to life.
And,
and then we will choose Christ.
Like,
like it's,
not again,
not,
not if,
it's,
we will.
Um,
he's given us life and given us,
given us faith to believe.
And that's why faith is a gift,
because you wouldn't have it unless he brought you back to life.
And I just keep thinking back in my mind,
like,
okay,
I need,
I need to,
like,
I need to,
I need to have scripture answers to this.
Mm-hmm.
So I have that,
you know,
now I need to back my mind.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Um,
I can try to make sure you got a printout from last time we were here.
Yeah.
Because we talk about how faith was given to us.
By God.
Um,
but it came after we were regenerated,
after we were born again and not,
not before.
Um,
so it's the outcome of,
of,
uh,
us being born again.
And yeah,
and in fact,
in that moment you do repent,
you do,
uh,
quote,
choose Christ,
but you're choosing him because he chose you.
Does that make sense?
It's like you're,
you're being who you are at that point,
which is a,
a newly saved believer.
Yeah.
So many churches are like,
choose Jesus.
One church.
It's okay to say that.
Yeah.
In a sense,
they may like,
you choose him,
but like,
it could get the wrong meaning.
Mm-hmm.
Like,
one church,
they put up this whole thing,
like,
the train thing,
it was like,
choose Jesus.
Oh,
well,
that's kind of like,
kind of making a very,
uh,
eternal weighty matter,
kind of lighthearted.
Um,
but yeah,
uh,
but no,
it is true because there are those,
those calls that go out to all people.
Like,
yes,
come to Christ,
choose life.
Like that,
that's real stuff.
So,
um,
but just knowing in the end that if we do in fact get there,
that we realize it was God who got us there,
um,
is what we kind of see.
So,
so,
uh,
so here's a,
here's a question now,
like,
if you think about it this way.
Um,
so what we're talking about is assurance of salvation now.
Okay?
So we know that salvation is forever,
right?
If God saves us,
it's permanent,
it's not going anywhere.
But assurance,
uh,
which I found this really interesting is the Greek word,
um,
patho.
And it means to soothe,
to persuade,
to pacify,
or to tranquilize.
Pretty interesting.
So,
it's an internal,
conscious confidence
that we are truly in right relationship with God through Christ.
This confidence we may have
is based upon certain evidences in our lives
that we are truly born again,
justified,
and adopted into God's family.
thus,
will persevere as a Christian until the end of our lives
and be eternally saved.
Right?
So,
assurance is the ability to know
with confidence one is saved
and to enjoy that salvation.
Here's what's important too.
Assurance of salvation is not
essential
for an individual to be saved,
but critical to his or her peace,
confidence,
and joy in this life.
So,
meaning like,
there are some true believers out there
who always doubt.
They don't know
and they're unsure.
And,
but what God is trying to say is,
hey,
I want you to know
so that you can have,
uh,
again,
joy and peace and confidence
in this life.
Um,
so,
not a minute ago,
but Hebrews 6,
he says,
we desire each of you
to show the same earnestness
to have full assurance of hope
until the end
so that you may not be sluggish,
but imitators of those through faith
and patience inherit promises.
So,
that's,
that's one,
one place.
Um,
and talking about like coming to God,
um,
into his presence with confidence
because of what Christ has done.
Verse 22,
let us draw near with a true heart
and full assurance of faith.
With our hearts sprinkled clean
from an evil conscience
and our bodies washed with pure water.
Okay?
But here's just a question.
Do you think that
the New Testament writers
would even use words
like joy,
unspeakable,
uh,
peace,
um,
confidence?
Do you think they would ever use
any of those words
if you could lose it?
Does that make any sense?
Those words just wouldn't exist.
It's not.
It's like,
no,
you can actually be at peace with God.
You actually can know it.
The Bible's not wishy like that.
No.
No,
it's not.
So,
so meaning like
those words
are there
because you actually
can know
if you are saved or not.
And,
um,
but again,
a lot of people
don't have that assurance.
They struggle
with it.
Uh,
so again,
I mentioned Spurgeon earlier.
This is another
quote from him,
but check this verse out
in Isaiah 32.
So if we are
saved,
right,
we are justified.
We are made right with God.
He's given us
his righteousness,
his perfect righteousness
so that we can stand
before God.
All right?
So listen to this.
the effect of righteousness
will be peace
and the result
of righteousness,
quietness
and confident trust,
assurance forever.
So meaning like
if in fact
we have Christ's righteousness,
the result of that
and awareness of that
will bring peace,
trust,
and assurance.
So that's the outcome
if we are made right with God.
And then I love this.
I love this quote.
Enjoy it.
You will not be saved
by feeling
that Christ died for you.
Isn't that great?
If there is a lifeboat
and some poor man
is ready to drown
and some strong arm,
strong hand,
excuse me,
rescues him,
when he comes to himself
he realizes
that he is in the lifeboat.
But it is not
the realizing
that he is in the lifeboat
that saves him.
It's the lifeboat.
So it is
that Christ saves the sinner
not the sinner's feelings.
Ah,
I love that.
Like,
yeah,
like it's actually the fact
that you've been saved,
not I feel like I am.
I still feel like
I'm spitting up water
right now, right?
But,
but that's
a very cool
connection.
so,
but back to
the idea of like
falling away,
I think John MacArthur
said like it's
possible for some
people to be
not a part of the vine,
meaning the church,
but parasites on the vine
is what he actually said.
Um,
meaning that they're
enjoying things
from the vine,
but they're not really
a part of the vine.
And,
uh,
MacArthur did.
In one of his books
about assurance
of salvation.
Uh,
so,
and getting to this,
this is something
Matthew Henry said
likewise,
but,
about falling away.
The humble sinner
who pleads guilty
and cries for mercy
can have no ground
from this passage,
meaning the one
in Hebrews 6,
to be discouraged.
Whatever his conscience
may accuse him of,
nor does he prove
that anyone
who has made
new creature
in Christ
ever becomes
final apostate
from him.
believers not only
taste,
that's what that word
said,
right?
In Hebrews,
not only taste
of the word of God,
but they drink it in.
And this fruitful field
or garden
receives the blessing.
but the merely
nominal Christian
continuing unfruitful
under the means
of grace
or producing nothing
but deceit
and selfishness
was,
was near the awful
state above described,
meaning Hebrews 6,
and the everlasting
misery was,
was the end
reserved for him.
So,
um,
so here's another thing.
Uh,
I,
I grew up
hearing this,
and there's a lot
of people who meant
well,
so I'm not like
attacking that.
It's just something
I'll never say
personally,
but,
um,
so I,
I might have been
saved when I was 13,
maybe.
Uh,
I was baptized
when I was 13.
I did understand
the gospel,
um,
but I,
I kind of was like
one of the holdouts,
like my two buddies
had been baptized,
and I was kind of
getting looks like
the rebel who
wasn't baptized yet,
um,
and my older brother
had been baptized,
and so I was like,
man,
I just need to get it
done,
and I kind of felt
that peer pressure
almost just to do it.
I don't think my,
my parents put that
on me,
I think it was just
me putting it on myself,
and kind of being like,
you know,
um,
tired of being the one
guy to raise his hand,
and be like,
yeah,
I haven't been baptized yet,
so I was baptized,
and so when I was 13,
uh,
and then from that point on,
I just went on to live
in the world for many years,
like all the way up
until I was like maybe
18,
and I just
pursued all the things
of the flesh,
you know,
and,
but I still went to church
on Sunday,
I still,
quote,
did the right thing,
and something did not
feel right,
I remember just being like,
this can't be consistent,
you know,
so one of two things
happened,
one was I never was
saved to begin with,
and,
and when God used my
suffering and my trials
to kind of bring in my feet
when I was 18,
then it was real,
maybe,
um,
or I just looked around me
and I was saved,
I looked around me
at my brother
and my other friends
who were just still
living like the devil,
and I just kind of
thought it was normal,
like,
I guess it was just
what we do,
like we're saved
and when I die,
I'll go to heaven,
you know,
but I guess I just,
you know,
it was about the next life,
not this life,
I might have thought that,
but the point is,
I don't have to figure it out
because I know he did it,
right,
like I know I'm alive
right now,
kind of idea,
but I was told
by many people,
uh,
like if God saved you,
don't,
don't doubt it,
like never doubt it,
you know,
like if he saved you,
like don't ever question it,
um,
and,
so I didn't,
and I remember,
uh,
years later,
um,
basically seeing the name
of a book called,
uh,
I never knew you,
the tragedy of religion
without relationship,
and I was like,
huh,
that's scary,
and I,
I started reading about it,
and I'm like,
oh my goodness,
it actually is true
that a lot of people
could think that they're
in the faith and not be,
and then I like look back
at my life,
I'm like,
man,
I may not have been,
and I remember having
that thought,
and I remember even
talking to my brother
about it,
like Lee,
like,
I don't know,
like,
do you think what
happened to you is real,
because honestly,
looking at your life,
I don't see it,
and,
you know,
and he was like,
you know what,
you're right,
that makes sense,
if God actually saved me,
then there would be
some evidence of that,
I'm not saved,
oh well,
that's kind of like his
response,
just like,
you're probably right,
he's like saying,
that makes sense,
granted,
but I guess I'm just
not there,
you know,
I was like,
well,
freaking get there then,
man,
let's,
let's talk about it,
you know,
but,
don't really know
where he is today,
he made some,
but anyway,
I was just told
never to doubt it,
and that could have been
tragedy for me,
if God had not,
again,
intervened sovereignly,
but,
check this out,
right,
examine,
make certain,
professing believers
should be encouraged
to evaluate themselves
to see if they are
truly in the faith,
right,
now,
so,
stop for a second,
be careful,
look,
if you just do a lot of,
like,
introspective,
hashing,
you'll never feel
like you're saved,
like,
if you just,
like,
think about every bad
thing you've done,
you're never going
to get there,
but this examination
should be done
carefully
through the means
of searching
of the scripture,
prayer,
and counsel
of the local church,
so,
being a part of the body
is critical for people
to say,
hey,
I see grace in your life,
like,
I see God at work
in your life,
we think that you are
in the faith,
right,
if their faith
be true and genuine,
then it should be
evidenced through
the showing
of the fruits
of love
and gracious
obedience
towards God,
the inward
transformation
of believers
by God's grace
leads to an outward
demonstration
of good works,
which are the evidence
of true,
saving faith,
so,
2 Corinthians here
is one of those verses
like,
blah,
I've never seen that
before,
but,
Paul says,
examine yourselves
to see whether or not
you are in the faith,
test yourselves,
already not realize
this is about yourselves,
that Jesus Christ
is in you,
unless indeed
you fail
to meet the test,
I hope you will find out
that we have not
failed the test,
and see,
I was just never told that,
and I think
when I was saved,
I just had a desire
to take everybody
that I thought
was a Christian,
but hey,
have you thought about this?
Like,
are you sure?
Because,
I was fooled
for many years,
and in fact,
it actually tells us
to think about it.
2 Peter 1.10
talks about election
right here.
Therefore,
brothers,
be all the more diligent
to confirm
your calling and election,
so basically,
make sure
you're saved.
For if you practice
these qualities,
you will never fail.
Alright,
so then it gets into
just basically,
like,
how the evidence
of a true believer
is a changed life,
good works,
religious affection,
like I just said a minute ago,
holy affections for God,
and so,
this idea that,
like,
it's impossible
for your life
to not be changed
if you actually are saved.
You can't just remain the same.
Even though that change
may be slow,
for some,
it's like lightning.
Like,
I've known guys
that,
like,
completely the next day
were just different people
and left the drinking,
left the partying,
left the women,
you know,
and just never were the same.
Others,
just a more gradual
road to sanctification.
But,
yeah,
any questions
or thoughts
on this?
I'm trying to bring out
different facets
that you see in the Bible.
Like,
yeah,
you are supposed to question it.
you can have assurance,
and yes,
there are some people
who are fooled,
even though that once you're saved,
you're saved forever.
So,
so here's a good quiz for you.
What book would you take somebody to
to read with them
if they were struggling
with assurance?
Or if they,
or if you really thought
this person probably wasn't a Christian,
but they said they were,
to the best of your discernment,
you wouldn't think that they were?
Like,
what book would you want
to read with them?
Bible.
Not the Quran?
True.
Yep.
First John.
Why First John?
Yep.
Yep,
that's true.
So,
it is,
so that you will know,
right?
You will have confidence.
And,
so,
that's a great one.
I've actually used that
several times for people,
and,
one was one of my
baseball players
many years ago,
and,
I thought he was truly saved.
He got drafted,
he played for the Braves,
and,
the Pirates,
like two different
minor league teams.
then he didn't get
to the big league,
so he actually came back
to North Georgia,
and coached,
like with Cantrell,
like,
grad assistant,
coaching.
And,
during that time,
like,
I asked him how I was doing,
he always was like,
yeah,
I'm doing pretty good,
you know,
just,
and,
and people would be like,
hey man,
you need to talk to him,
because he's like up there
at Johnny B's,
and he's getting sloshed,
and,
he got like in a pretty bad fight
with the guy the other guy
and broke the guy's nose,
and just like,
so I'm like,
oh yeah,
he's good,
you know,
he's good.
And so,
I,
I had him over for breakfast,
and I gave him several chances
to come clean,
like over the span of like a month,
like,
how are you doing?
And,
he was just like,
I'm good man,
you know,
just,
not always the best,
you know,
I still have my struggles,
just that kind of like
general language.
So I'm like,
alright,
that's it.
So I had him over for breakfast,
I said,
alright,
steak and eggs man,
they come to my house,
and I said to him,
how are you doing?
One last chance,
you know,
like,
he's like,
yeah,
he wouldn't look me in the eye,
just kind of like,
yeah,
just kind of like,
you know,
doing the,
alright man,
look,
I love you,
you know I love you,
we've been through a lot together,
I know you're not doing okay.
And he just started bawling,
like,
nope,
I'm not.
Started,
you know,
just crying his eyes out,
and then he just said like,
um,
Michael,
what can I do to help you man?
He's like,
well,
can we just start meeting up again?
And,
yep,
so every week we had breakfast,
and we read through 1 John,
and about maybe,
through chapter 2,
I asked him,
like,
um,
there's a verse,
like,
brothers,
basically,
if we,
we see these things in our life,
we can have confidence before God.
God,
um,
where is this?
You might know what verse I'm talking about.
Here it is,
yeah.
1 John 3,
21,
Beloved,
if our heart does not condemn us,
we have confidence before God.
Right?
And I asked him,
how's your confidence?
He goes,
not good.
He's like,
I love the world,
and I love the things in the world.
I don't really want to obey God's commands.
Like,
I see sin in my life.
Like,
all these tests,
I'm failing,
basically.
And,
and then there's another one in there that talks about Christ's return.
And,
MacArthur actually said,
that's a good one.
Like,
do you eagerly await for Christ's return?
Like,
can't wait for it?
Like,
even though it makes me nervous,
like,
I'm excited for it,
and I can't wait for him to come back and clean up this mess and rescue me?
Or are you like,
oh,
no,
like,
I don't want that.
Like,
no.
Like,
what was,
how do you respond?
And he goes,
and I would be terrified if Christ came back.
That's like what he said.
And I was like,
oh,
man,
just,
stop.
Like,
just go to him right now.
Like,
I'm not going to pray a prayer with you.
I'm not going to like,
you know,
hold your hand.
But like,
look,
I'll pray with you.
But like,
just end it.
It can stop right now.
And,
I mean,
that happened just by reading 1 John.
And I think,
to my knowledge,
like,
he's doing very well now.
He's still,
he's a coach in the major leagues.
And,
uh,
um,
with the Astros.
So he's won a World Series now.
And,
I just,
just text him,
like,
stay humble,
man.
Like,
don't get your head big.
And,
but I think he's doing pretty well right now.
But yeah,
1 John is a powerful book to use for that very reason.
To examine yourself.
Um,
in closing,
you can tell I read a lot of Spurgeon for this.
Talking about Philippians 1,
6.
If our faith be of our own,
getting or making,
it will perish.
And the sooner it goes,
the better.
But if our religion is a matter of God's giving,
we know that he shall never take back what he gives.
And that,
if he has commenced to work in us by his grace,
he will never leave it unfinished.
So,
meaning like,
if it started with you,
it could end with you.
But if it started with Christ,
it will finish with Christ.
Like,
he's going to carry you to the very end.
Um,
so I,
kind of like,
like that sort of in closing.
But,
um,
any other comments or questions?
That's fine.
Oh,
is there a verse?
Yeah.
Um,
James?
So,
so,
can you clarify?
I think I know what you're talking about.
Can you like,
maybe ask it a different way?
Does anybody understand what she's asking?
Or answer?
We're called to help people come back to their faith.
And that's,
yep.
Yes,
it is.
These verses are really strong,
saying that it's impossible for them to come back.
Right.
Uh,
well,
I think what he's basically saying is if you,
if they ultimately don't come off that path,
it doesn't say don't pursue them.
It doesn't say seek them and continue to love them and chase them down.
So,
there's nothing there about the response of a believer to that person.
And,
because obviously we would still want to show them compassion.
If it was someone of our relatives or friends,
we would pursue them all the time,
even if they were rejecting Christ.
We would continue to do it.
We would continue to pray for them,
share,
share with them,
in hopes that they would come back.
But we don't know if they will.
Right?
We don't know.
But what he,
what he is saying though,
is if they continue down that road,
then there's no way.
Like,
because again,
like what,
what else are you going to tell them?
You've already shared the gospel and they already know it and they've rejected it.
They've,
there's not one more shred of truth that they need.
Like they,
they've been given everything and they basically just said,
no,
I don't want it.
And they continue to harden their hearts in sin.
So that's just,
that verse is just sort of a warning,
right?
Like,
if you are that person,
don't go that way,
but it doesn't say anything about the way we should look at those people.
We don't look at them and say,
well,
I guess they're just a victim of Hebrew six moving on.
Like we'll just continue to pursue them.
And,
uh,
come on.
And some can be brought to faith.
Some,
and some might be able to be saved.
Some of this goes back to your view of evangelism.
Mm hmm.
So,
if our goal in evangelism is to convince others,
and so by convincing them,
they turn to Christ,
that,
that's not our role in evangelism.
Mm hmm.
Our goal is to present the gospel.
When they reject that gospel,
that,
that general call to salvation,
that's,
that's what those verses are talking about.
Our lovely,
loving examples of others made with Christ.
I just found it.
Yep.
Ernie was very humbly texting me the answer to the verse that I was actually looking for.
Um,
he got my class in James five,
but he basically,
James says in James five,
19,
um,
my brothers,
if any among you wanders from truth,
and someone brings him back,
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
So,
there is that idea of pursuing those people.
We don't just kind of say,
well,
they're a lost cause.
Like,
we,
we continue to pray like,
like,
don't take this like in an arrogant way,
but our presence in their life is grace to them.
Like,
a lot of people don't have believers pursuing them.
A lot of people don't have Christians praying for them.
And actually,
it actually says,
right,
that God hears the prayers of his people and like God will answer those.
And so,
um,
but yeah,
it doesn't,
it really is more about like the projectile of,
of the center there and a warning to them not to go on sending,
to not harden their hearts,
um,
to remain,
you know,
steadfast in the Lord.
Um,
but,
but that,
but again,
he gives you that caveat at the end of that.
Like,
I mean,
I don't think this is you.
Like,
I'm convinced you actually have experienced salvation,
but though I'm talking in that way,
right?
Like though I'm talking in a hypothetical situation,
I I'm convinced that there are better things of you.
Great example.
Um,
think about the contrast between Judas and Peter.
You ever done that?
Like,
both outwardly claim to be true disciples of Jesus.
Um,
one was tested and one failed.
One was tested and failed initially,
but eventually came back.
Right?
And,
um,
and that's like what James,
or Jesus said to Peter,
he said,
you're going to betray me.
You're going to walk away from me.
But basically you will,
Peter would in the bigger picture,
endure,
right?
As where Judas had,
he will,
he was that parasite on the vine.
He was around Jesus.
He was enjoying all the cool,
um,
dog and pony tricks that Jesus was doing.
He never really belonged to Christ.
And Jesus says that in John,
like he was never one of mine.
Right?
And,
uh,
scary language,
but,
uh,
to be in Jesus's place and to know the whole time that was the guy that was going to do it.
Like,
so a very different contrast.
Peter did persevere.
Remember at the end of the gospel of John,
he,
you know,
Simon,
son of John,
do you love me?
And he asked him three times and,
um,
Lord,
you know all things and you know that I love you.
Take care of my sheep.
You know,
that response to him.
So,
so in other words,
Peter was not a Hebrews six person.
He,
he,
he came back around as where Judas was that person in the scripture.
So,
so
thinking about it,
from those of us on the outside,
looking in,
um,
we're all in the narrative that the federation,
the movement of the Holy Spirit,
is like the wind,
he says,
that,
you know,
the effects of it,
you don't know where it's coming or where it's coming.
And so when we're talking about the salvation of a person,
um,
like,
like Judas,
and Peter,
the disciples didn't know.
Sure.
Was apostate.
Um,
or was unsaved.
They questioned whether they were.
Yep.
That person.
So when we're looking at this,
okay,
who's a Christian,
who's not a Christian,
who professes to be a Christian,
do we,
who has gone so far that it's impossible.
Hmm.
We don't really know.
Nope.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean,
and I,
I tell,
um,
I told my brother that a long time ago.
Look,
man,
if I'm praying for you,
mom's praying for you,
grandma's praying for you.
Like,
look,
when God's ready,
like he's going to like take you out,
man.
Like there's nothing you're going to be able to do about it.
Like God's going to save you when he's ready.
I basically tell him that all the time.
So,
um,
you're not,
you can run,
but you can't hide.
That's kind of how I talk to him sometimes.
Um,
and,
but I mean,
I,
I just kind of want to make a personal plea to you.
Um,
there's some people in our church and they're very mature,
awesome people.
So don't take this as an offense.
I'm not going to name anybody.
Um,
just try to stay away from the language of,
he's not a believer.
She's not a believer.
You know,
just people to kind of make those judgments really quickly.
It's okay.
I mean,
Jesus did say,
right in Matthew there,
you'll know them by their fruits,
right?
And Jesus said,
um,
you'll know them by their love for me and for one another.
Uh,
so there's ways that we can discern,
but discerning doesn't mean you have complete knowledge.
Only God knows you can say,
I don't think so based on their life and based where they are.
It doesn't really seem like they're in the faith,
but don't,
but don't make such a harsh finalized judgment like that.
Like he's not a Christian.
I don't think she's a Christian.
There's a lot of that kind of talk.
And again,
my well-meaning people and I,
I myself sort of recused myself from that kind of language.
Like maybe they're not,
but you know what?
Like right now I'm just going to tell them,
I don't see it.
Uh,
Cody Clickner,
as part of his testimony,
like me and another guy,
another believer on the baseball team basically said,
yeah,
you,
you talk a Christian moment for him,
like saying,
yeah,
my life is inconsistent.
What I claim.
So,
um,
but yeah,
just sort of be careful of that kind of language.
Cause again,
only God knows,
but there are ways that we can,
we can see it like repentance.
I've known people that this may sound stupid,
but I knew a guy who didn't think,
didn't think it was like wrong for him to lust after women.
He thought it was just part of how I naturally are like,
well,
what's wrong?
I mean,
as long as I don't do anything about it,
what's wrong with just looking at it.
And,
but I showed him,
he's like,
oh wow.
Oh gosh.
And so he immediately just like,
pretended,
you know,
it's just like,
Lord help me not do that.
And so that's a good sign.
But if he's like,
well,
you know,
we're just made that way.
And like,
what is God,
you know,
like that,
that'd be like,
okay,
well,
stop.
Like that's dangerous.
You're starting to question what God has clearly said,
not ambiguous.
He's very clear about it.
Like,
don't,
you know,
that's what it says in first John,
like by this,
we've come to know him.
If we keep his commandments and you're basically saying,
but this guy was like,
man,
I've never seen that.
Like,
oh my gosh.
He was like really broken by it and began to like ask the Lord to help him,
you know,
and,
um,
continued on.
So,
but yeah,
we don't know who they are.
So we need to just plead with them all.
Yeah.
Anything else?
Any questions?
Young people,
any questions?
Young people?
I mean,
I know,
like that fits you.
Go for it.
Just one,
just final point.
I don't know why.
Of course,
the groups are the same.
Mm-hmm.
I know that the five points are interconnected.
Yeah.
Depending on the one previous to it.
Yeah.
But still,
we have an inconsistent cowl.
Yeah.
that are inconsistent
and they will argue one good point.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, really.
So we just drop them a good book
or a good sermon, you know,
and it's like, hmm, no.
Like just leave it on their doorstep
and drive away.
But it's...
Yeah.
Yep.
To get you there.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Yeah.
And then I just thought,
to Doug's point,
a little record of a conversation
that happened between Charles Simeon
and John Wesley.
Yeah.
I think it was really great.
So Wesley is an Arminian.
I think we all know that, but...
Yeah.
So Simeon says...
So they met and...
This was pinned down,
a record of their little conversation.
So Simeon says to Wesley,
Sir, I understand that you were called an Arminian,
and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist,
and therefore I suppose we ought to draw daggers.
Before I consider to begin the combat,
with your permission,
I will ask a few questions.
Pray, sir,
do you feel yourself a depraved creature,
so depraved that you would never have thought
of turning to God
if God had not first put it into your heart?
Wesley responds,
Yes, I do indeed.
Simeon says,
And do you utterly despair
of recommending yourself to God
by anything you can do
and look for salvation
solely through the blood
and righteousness of Christ?
Wesley says,
Yes,
solely through Christ.
But sir,
supposing you were at first saved by Christ,
are you not now
somehow or other
to save yourself afterwards
by your own works?
Wesley says,
No,
I must be saved by Christ
from first to last.
Allowing then
that you were first turned
by the grace of God,
are you not in some way or other
to save yourself
by your own power?
What then?
Are you not in some way?
It is in substance
all that I hold
and as I hold it
and therefore,
if you please,
instead of searching out
terms and prices
to be a ground of contention
between us,
we will cordially unite
in those things
wherein we agree.
Wesley said,
to this,
I add nothing
to that conversation.
Yep.
That's good.
I took that conversation
like that for my friends.
That's good.
Maybe.
But yeah,
it's like,
there are those,
especially in the SBC
in the last 20 years
probably,
who have made this
a very divisive
and combative issue.
More hostility,
I would say,
from more of the,
I would call them
semi-Armenians
because they believe
in the last point,
right?
It's like they want
the other ones there
and then want to keep
that one at the end.
You know,
just a lot of hostility
and it doesn't need
to be like that way
is what Nathan's
really pointing out there.
But I,
example,
this is a story
that Spurgeon told
about Wesley
and Woodfield.
So,
but apparently,
some people came
to Woodfield
like,
so,
John Wesley,
like,
he's not like us.
He's not a Calvinist,
basically what they're
trying to say.
He's not like us.
He's not in our club.
He goes like,
do you think he'll be in,
you think we'll see him
in heaven one day?
Kind of like really
arrogant statement,
right?
And he basically said,
sir,
I think
we will not be seeing him
in heaven one day
because I think
he will have
such a place
near the throne of God
that we won't be able
to see him.
So,
really cool,
like,
statement.
Just unity
in the gospel.
for Arminius
and for
Wesley,
at least they were
consistent.
Like,
they like,
yeah,
if it starts with you,
it could end with you.
They were really clear on that.
Now you have that breed today
as like,
yeah,
we want all the four points
of Arminianism,
but we don't really want
the last one.
You know,
and it's like,
both people would disagree
with you.
Like,
you're just being ridiculous.
So,
yeah.
Very true.
Anything else?
I went through the trouble
of getting Nathan's,
just wanted to show them
to you at least,
but these are
John Calvin's
Institutes.
Yeah,
real thick.
This is an abridged version
that I think I told you
I read a long time ago.
I'm like,
yeah,
I read the Institutes.
And then someone pointed out
that's the abridged version.
I'm like,
oh,
shoot.
So,
but yeah,
it's really good.
And crazy,
he wrote this
when he was 25.
So,
yeah.
But yeah,
while doing a bunch
of other things
at the same time.
But,
but yeah,
I mean,
but it's just really,
if you have like a false
perception of Calvin,
it'd be really good to,
like,
just start reading
through these.
Like,
they're just good.
Go to these,
but whatever.
And,
about like this.
Yeah,
a lot smaller.
Yeah.
But,
these are all good books.
This one is
Pillars of Grace.
100 A.D.
to 1564.
So,
meaning,
it goes over,
like,
a lot of the other saints
from church history
and talks about
how they believed
and taught these things.
You got like,
you know,
Luther,
Ignatius,
Cyprian,
Athanasius,
Calvin,
Tyndale,
etc.
Good.
Then you should just
give this book.
Buy him this book.
But anyway,
any questions about
any of the Reformers?
Like,
Luther,
Calvin,
not perfect,
men?
Any Reformation questions?
All right.
Well,
let's pray together
and
let's give God
thanks for our time.
let's go.
Thank you.