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 All right, folks, thanks for joining us today. I think I know most of all of you, but I'm Tom Schmidt. I'm one of the elders here. I also teach at Fairfield University on the history of Christianity in the Bible. We're going to be talking about creeds today. It'll be the second in our series. And today we'll be looking at what's called Anton Nicene creeds. That's just a fancy way of saying creeds before the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

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 And I have a handout. So if you don't have the handout and you'd like one, Natalie is handing them out back there. I thought that we could begin with a brief word of prayer and then we'll jump in.

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 So, Father, we ask you in the name of your Son, by your Holy Spirit, to be with us this hour while we look at the professions of faith whom our brothers and sisters have written down centuries ago.

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 We pray that you would nourish us through their words, that we would grow in understanding and in our faith and our confidence in you. And we ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen.

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 Amen.

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 So I want to ask a question to begin. If you were, let's say, a missionary today and you were off in a very far off place, totally disconnected from the modern world, perhaps a people group that's illiterate, they don't have reading and writing, their culture is totally separated from the modern culture, Western culture, or any other culture.

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 What would you tell them to believe about Jesus? If you were to shrink it down, condense it into just a brief message, what would you say?

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 Okay. This question, that decision is what a lot of Christians in the ancient world faced when they were communicating the gospel message.

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 They were communicating the gospel message to early believers or non-believers and they needed to decide what are we going to emphasize? What do we talk about?

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 And when you get down to it, it's actually kind of hard to figure out what to emphasize.

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 And so today we're going to look at how early Christians articulated their faith.

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 We're going to look at the earliest creeds in roughly chronological order that we can find.

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 But even already we're encountering a problem because we have to define what a creed is.

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 And when I was assembling this little packet, that was one of the problems I faced because depending on how you define a creed is going to depend on what I select to be here.

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 So I thought what we could do is just jump in.

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 We can read the first creed listed together.

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 We'll talk about it.

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 We can read the first thing about how we can find this statement of faith or this creed in this manner.

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 Because we'll discover that actually some of them seem to have different purposes.

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 Some of them are responding to different questions.

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 Some of them have different points of emphasis.

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 And I think that that will help illuminate our faith today and help us think about creeds today.

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 So let's begin.

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 We'll start with right off the bat Ignatius of Antioch.

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 He wrote around 107 AD.

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 And the thing to know about Ignatius of Antioch, I'll just give the highlights, is he was a disciple of the apostles, probably the apostles Peter and Paul, or at least he almost certainly knew them.

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 And he was the bishop of Antioch, probably one of the most famous Christians of his day.

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 And this is an extract.

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 It's a quote from a letter that he was writing to a church as he was being carried away by Roman soldiers to be executed for his faith in Christ.

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 It's a dramatic letter.

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 It's very poignant.

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 This is his kind of last piece of advice to this church.

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 So it's pretty intense.

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 Let's see what he has to say.

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 And could I, this is like when I'm in the classroom, could I have a volunteer to read?

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 Who would like to read?

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 Richard, go for it.

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 Ignatius of Antioch, up at the top.

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 Be deaf, therefore, when anyone asks you to speak apart from Jesus Christ, who was of the family of David, who was the son of Mary, who really was born, who both ate and drank, who was really persecuted under Pontius Pilate, who really was crucified and died while those in heaven and on earth and under the earth looked down.

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 Who, moreover, really was raised from the dead when his father raised him up, who his father, that is, in the same way will likewise also raise us up in Christ Jesus, who believe in him, apart from whom we have no true life.

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 All right.

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 Amen.

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 I mean, it's a beautiful confession of faith.

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 It is.

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 Very beautiful.

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 Especially when you consider that he's writing this as he's condemned to die.

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 He knows he's going to die in probably a few weeks.

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 And he's talking about that promise of eternal life in Christ Jesus, that he will raise him up.

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 It's very powerful.

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 My question for you is, wow, what is the focus here?

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 What is he trying to emphasize again and again?

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 It seems like he's trying to emphasize Jesus' incarnation, that he was really human.

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 Yeah, like, okay.

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 Notice the word really, that he says, I think he says it four times.

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 Really born, really persecuted, really crucified and died, really raised from the dead.

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 That this was fact.

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 Yes.

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 And that these things happened in history.

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 And they happened in history.

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 You're not just by a real person.

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 Precisely.

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 Precisely.

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 And if you think that these are the two same things, they're actually not.

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 Because it seems like part of the reason Ignatius is emphasizing this is because he's dealing with various heretical Christian sects that are claiming that, yes, this happened in history.

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 But Jesus really wasn't human.

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 He only looked human.

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 God would never actually become human.

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 He just kind of looked that way.

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 God would never be human.

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 And it looked like he suffered, but he didn't actually suffer.

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 And so you can technically hold these separately if you want to.

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 It's kind of a weird belief.

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 But that was actually very common in the ancient world where Jesus was thought of as not actually human.

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 Is there anything missing from this creed?

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 Like, do you think that if we view it as a creed, I mean, it feels creedal.

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 It's a final parting piece of advice.

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 You could, if you wanted a strict definition of a creed, say, well, this probably isn't.

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 It's just important advice.

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 But for our purposes, let's consider it a creed.

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 But is there stuff missing that you think is really important that he doesn't?

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 Yeah, the Holy Spirit not mentioned.

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 Holy Spirit not mentioned here.

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 Yeah, that's a big one.

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 Sin?

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 Could you say that again?

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 Sin?

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 Sin.

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 Yes.

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 Yes.

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 He doesn't talk about forgiveness.

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 Ignatius here.

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 Maybe the divinity of Jesus.

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 Yeah, he actually doesn't explicitly say that Jesus was divine.

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 He talks about how he's human.

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 He's human.

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 He's human.

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 Now, we want to be careful.

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 Scholars sometimes go off the rails here, and they'll take something like this and say,

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 Ignatius didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

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 If you read his letters, he explicitly calls Jesus divine repeatedly,

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 like again and again and again.

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 He talks about the Holy Spirit.

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 So that's something we want to be careful of,

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 is that sometimes there's other creeds or there's other writers that we don't have the other letters they wrote or the other books.

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 And so we want to be careful not to say Ignatius thought the deity of Jesus was unimportant because he clearly thought it was very important.

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 And that brings up a point, is that the creeds are conditioned by the circumstances.

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 I want to go back to my question when I said if you were, you know, a missionary today in a far-off tribe.

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 I mean, chances are, if you were going to communicate the gospel message to the people,

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 you probably wouldn't feel like you have to emphasize the humanity of Jesus again and again and again like Ignatius did.

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 You'd probably just assume, oh, when I say he was born and died and was raised again,

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 that they'll just know he was human, that he suffered, he had flesh and blood.

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 They'll assume that.

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 But not all cultures do.

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 And the Greek culture especially that was so obsessed with mind, noose, and things beyond the physical world,

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 they didn't assume that.

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 And so Ignatius thought he really had to emphasize this.

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 So we're going to encounter these kinds of issues several times as we go through these creeds

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 where what they choose to emphasize is often conditioned by the circumstances they are addressing.

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 Before we go on, though, any other questions about Ignatius?

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 I want to make sure we have time to get through some other stuff.

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 But let's read the next one.

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 Irenaeus, I said Irenaeus Leons, it should be Irenaeus of Leons.

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 He wrote around 180.

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 I'll introduce him very briefly.

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 He wrote the first systematic theological work that we have in existence by a Christian.

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 There, of course, were many earlier theological works,

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 but these weren't what we call systematic.

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 It wasn't laying out the whole structure of Christian belief like Irenaeus did.

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 Irenaeus was a missionary in France, and he was from Asia Minor.

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 And he's famous because his teacher was Polycarp, whose teacher was the Apostle John.

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 So he has this lineage, and he talks about that.

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 He talks about remembering Polycarp, who would talk about the Apostle John.

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 Fascinating apostolic lineage.

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 Irenaeus gives this formal creed.

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 So this, I think everyone agrees, is a formal statement of faith.

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 And he says this.

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 I'll read this one.

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 He says,

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 The Church.

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 And as I read, look for points of emphasis.

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 Look for interesting things.

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 The Church, though dispersed through the whole world, even to the ends of the earth,

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 has received from the Apostles and their disciples this faith.

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 She believes in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and the sea,

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 and all things that are in them.

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 And in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation,

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 and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaims through the prophets the dispensations of God and the

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 Advents and the birth from a virgin and the passion, that's the suffering of Jesus,

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 and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved

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 Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father,

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 to gather all things in one and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race,

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 in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord and God and Savior and King,

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 according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow,

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 of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth,

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 and that every tongue should confess to him,

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 and that he should execute just judgment towards all,

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 that he may send spiritual wickednesses and the angels who transgressed and became apostates,

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 together with the ungodly and unrighteous and the wicked,

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 and profane among men into everlasting fire,

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 but may, in the exercise of his grace,

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 confer immortality on the righteous and holy and those who kept his commandments

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 and have persevered in his love,

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 some from the beginning of their Christian course and others from the date of their repentance,

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 and may surround them with everlasting glory.

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 Every time I read this, I always want to say,

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 Amen! Amen to that!

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 And it's so wonderful.

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 I mean, this was written 1,840 years ago,

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 and we believe the same things.

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 We believe the same things.

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 It's so beautiful to see that.

00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.639
 Well, let's talk about some points of emphasis for Irenaeus.

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 So what are some points that he emphasizes and highlights in this particular creed, Richard?

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 I'm known for saying the obvious.

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 So the first word he uses is church.

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 Okay, the church.

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 Yes.

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 He emphasizes that this is the church that's like everywhere.

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 This is what the church believes.

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 Not just his little congregation sitting there in France,

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 but this is what the churches throughout the whole world believe.

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 So he emphasizes kind of the unity of this belief

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 and the geopolitical, the widespreadness, for lack of a better term, of this belief.

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 What else?

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 Is that a hand?

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 I mean, it could be a hand.

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 I'd say it's talking about redemption, redemptive history.

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 Hmm.

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 So it's, yeah, it's like a, it's like a little narrative.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 So he gives a history, I guess I'll say redemption history,

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 of the incarnation, all those points.

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 And there's lots of sub points we can add that perhaps we can add to this

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 because it brings up the greater question of like,

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 well, what does he think is redemption history?

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 Is he in, yes?

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 The creator.

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 God is the creator, the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

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 Yeah.

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 In the sea.

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 Yes.

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 Yeah.

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 And that was important in Greco-Roman society, in Greco-Roman polytheism.

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 They often believe the opposite, that the heaven and earth created the gods,

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 that those were like the arch gods and they gave birth.

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 That's the story of Uranos, heaven and Gaia.

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 So this is the reverse.

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 No, no, no, no, no.

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 There's not multiple gods.

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 There's only one God and he wasn't begotten by heaven and earth.

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 He made, he made heaven and earth.

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 So very, very important.

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 Helen.

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 This has a little here about the consummation.

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 Of the age, you mean?

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 Yeah.

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 Yes.

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 It says, and the ascension into heaven and the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus,

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 or in his future manifestation from heaven and the glory of the father,

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 to gather all things in one,

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 to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race.

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 Well, that hasn't happened yet.

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 Yes.

00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:29.440
 Yes.

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 So the consummation, the reconciling of all things,

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 the consummation, the recapitulation.

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 The beginning of, it's the end of the, it's the beginning.

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 The beginning.

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 Yeah.

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 Yes.

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 And what's interesting about this is that we often will talk about judgment.

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 Jesus comes back and there's the judgment,

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 which Irenaeus does talk about.

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 He also really mentions the judgment as well.

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 He dwells on that quite explicitly.

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 But for him, with the judgment is also this kind of completing or this new beginning,

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 this fulfillment of all things that is happening,

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 which gives it a little different spin of emphasis

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 than what you often will hear in Christian circles today,

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 where they'll just talk about, well, Jesus comes back and there's the judgment.

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 And Irenaeus says, yes, but he kind of explains more what he envisions that as being.

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 And there's also the Trinity.

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 Ah, yes.

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 So this is a more Trinitarian creed than the one we saw with Ignatius.

00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:39.579
 Now, it's a little unfair.

00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.639
 We don't want to pick on Ignatius because we're just extracting something from a letter.

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 In fact, maybe even that own letter.

00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:46.399
 We're on chapter nine of the letter with Ignatius.

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 He probably does mention the deity of Christ and the Trinity elsewhere in that letter.

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 If not, he does in other letters.

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 But it's Trinitarian.

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 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:56.679
 He mentions.

00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:05.139
 And that is a point of emphasis for him.

00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:09.019
 So I would say he's proto-Trinitarian.

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:09.879
 Okay.

00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:11.259
 Explain a little bit.

00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:14.759
 Because he says one God, the Father.

00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.640
 But he doesn't say anything about Jesus or the Holy Spirit being God.

00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:21.400
 Oh, does he though?

00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:22.859
 It's interesting.

00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:24.039
 He doesn't at first.

00:17:24.700 --> 00:17:25.740
 But if you keep reading.

00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:28.720
 Christ Jesus, our Lord and God.

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:29.039
 Yeah.

00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.700
 In the middle, when he circles back, he then clarifies.

00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:34.620
 It's very interesting.

00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.620
 So initially, he just talks about him being the Son of God.

00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:38.400
 Yes.

00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:43.680
 So he, and this is, we will find out in this creeds course, this becomes an issue.

00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:46.839
 Because, and we'll find out actually in just a moment.

00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.119
 But notice that it is Trinitarian.

00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:50.779
 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:52.799
 He does define the Father as God.

00:17:52.879 --> 00:17:54.339
 He does define the Son as God.

00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:56.439
 He doesn't define the Holy Spirit.

00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:59.339
 It's not that he defines the Holy Spirit as something else.

00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:05.159
 He just doesn't define exactly what he means by that.

00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.299
 So scholars have all sorts of different categories.

00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:11.700
 One of them is proto-Trinitarian.

00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:16.099
 Others, you could come up with other terms too.

00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.480
 You could just say it's Trinitarian.

00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.960
 It's just a non-specific kind of Trinitarian.

00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:21.700
 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:27.480
 It's not as specific as what these three persons are referring to here.

00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:29.159
 All right.

00:18:29.259 --> 00:18:33.779
 Other things that we notice.

00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:35.619
 Composes on the resurrection again.

00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:36.460
 Big time.

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:37.299
 Yes.

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:38.919
 Resurrection is very important.

00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:49.120
 And this is, I think, illuminating for us and helps us because we often think, in Christian

00:18:49.120 --> 00:18:51.220
 culture in the West, we often think of eternal life.

00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:54.620
 And they will think of that a bit differently than resurrection.

00:18:54.800 --> 00:18:56.560
 As in, like, we will have bodies.

00:18:56.840 --> 00:19:00.640
 Like, we are going to be raised to life and stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.160
 It's not that we die and go to heaven and float around on a cloud for all eternity.

00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.360
 That's not really the Christian view of things.

00:19:09.540 --> 00:19:11.360
 And Irenaeus is quite clear.

00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:14.240
 No, there's going to be a resurrection.

00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:19.620
 Well, I'm sorry.

00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:20.579
 Go to him.

00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:26.960
 It just strikes me that these points of emphasis sometimes aren't our points of emphasis.

00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:27.539
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:27.900
 Yeah.

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:28.640
 Yes.

00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:35.520
 When we hear a previous generation of Christians, here's what they emphasized to a world that

00:19:35.520 --> 00:19:39.380
 didn't understand the Judeo-Christian worldview.

00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:39.740
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:42.140
 Well, this is like the pagan Greeks and the...

00:19:42.140 --> 00:19:42.340
 Yeah.

00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:44.120
 Here's what they decided to emphasize.

00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:44.940
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:50.040
 But often we don't think it's important to emphasize the judgment or the consummation of

00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:50.380
 all things.

00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:50.759
 Right.

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:52.200
 Yep.

00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:53.880
 And I love...

00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:58.200
 I mean, he begins the whole thing by saying, hey, we all believe this.

00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:00.360
 And I...

00:20:00.360 --> 00:20:03.700
 Having read early Christian writings, he's correct.

00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:09.620
 I mean, this is a very universal belief throughout the early church of these points.

00:20:11.300 --> 00:20:15.280
 Some other things that he emphasizes or that he mentions.

00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:19.540
 He talks about the grace of God.

00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:25.039
 He says in the exercise of his grace, he will confer immortality.

00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:32.240
 And so for him, he wants this to be part of the discussion in this creedal statement that

00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:33.299
 we don't earn...

00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:34.720
 We don't earn our salvation.

00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:39.659
 We are given it via the exercise of his grace in us.

00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.180
 Another aspect is repentance.

00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:51.820
 He talks about the necessity or he at least mentions repentance where he speaks of those

00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:55.100
 who have repented, that he's going to surround them with everlasting glory.

00:20:55.380 --> 00:21:01.519
 I should add that this text has a bit of a difficult manuscript history.

00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:07.579
 So we're reading this in a Latin version.

00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.019
 Irenaeus wrote in Greek, but the Greek text is largely lost.

00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.319
 And so we have an ancient Latin translation of the Greek text.

00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.779
 And we do have some Greek quotations.

00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:18.839
 I can't remember if this was a quotation.

00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.519
 But anyway, sometimes Irenaeus' words will get a little bit garbled.

00:21:22.639 --> 00:21:27.180
 And at the very end here, you'll notice that the translator has inserted some brackets

00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.220
 of their Christian...

00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:30.680
 And that's because it's just a little...

00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.700
 Something feels like it got messed up a little bit.

00:21:34.120 --> 00:21:36.819
 And then the last thing I want to point out is he points out love.

00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:39.539
 He says...

00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:42.120
 He talks about those who persevere in God's love.

00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.680
 And the love of God is also something that is emphasized.

00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:48.940
 So really encouraging.

00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:51.339
 I mean, this feels encouraging.

00:21:51.460 --> 00:21:54.019
 There's nothing, I think, surprising here for us.

00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:58.319
 It's like a belief that we've never...

00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:01.279
 You know, that seems heretical to us or bizarre or strange.

00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.440
 It all seems very encouraging.

00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:09.839
 Let's continue because Irenaeus actually gives another creed.

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:17.759
 And he says something fascinating that relates to how creeds have authority.

00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.299
 He says something that I think is very interesting.

00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:22.980
 So this is from the same book.

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:27.740
 It's a very, very long book where he kind of gives another creed here.

00:22:29.659 --> 00:22:31.399
 I'm realizing because this is being recorded.

00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.539
 I should probably read these things because...

00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:36.819
 So that the folks listening at home can listen in.

00:22:36.879 --> 00:22:37.940
 So I'll read this one.

00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:46.140
 If the apostles had not left to us the scriptures, would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition,

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:50.539
 which those to whom they committed the churches handed down?

00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:56.279
 To this order, order of tradition, many nations of barbarians give assent.

00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.840
 Those who believe in Christ having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit,

00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:05.799
 without paper and ink, and guarding diligently the ancient tradition,

00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.980
 believing in one God, maker of heaven and earth, and all that is in them,

00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.439
 through Christ Jesus, the Son of God,

00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:18.000
 who for his astounding love towards his creatures,

00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:20.019
 sustained the birth of the Virgin,

00:23:20.459 --> 00:23:23.039
 himself uniting his manhood to God,

00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.039
 and suffered under Pontius Pilate,

00:23:25.139 --> 00:23:27.480
 and rose again, and was received in glory,

00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:28.680
 who shall come in glory,

00:23:29.019 --> 00:23:30.500
 the Savior of those who are saved,

00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:32.019
 and the Judge of those who are judged,

00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:34.559
 and sending them into eternal fire,

00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:36.099
 the perverters of the truth,

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.259
 and the despisers of his Father and his Advent.

00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:46.279
 So some similar things expressed differently in shorter form,

00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:49.480
 but his preface is different,

00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:50.839
 how he prefaces this,

00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:57.039
 and he offers a question about tradition,

00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.160
 and about apostolic writings,

00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:00.079
 otherwise scripture.

00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:02.339
 And he says,

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.079
 if the apostles had not left to us the scriptures,

00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:08.920
 would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition?

00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:11.480
 What does he mean by this?

00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:14.259
 And then we can talk about whether we agree with it or not,

00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.440
 but what is he trying to say here?

00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:19.960
 I think,

00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:20.559
 I think,

00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:22.680
 so it's tricky,

00:24:22.860 --> 00:24:25.860
 because it's one of those conditional rhetorical questions.

00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:26.340
 Oh yeah.

00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:26.820
 Right?

00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:27.320
 But,

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.160
 at first I thought,

00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:29.620
 wait,

00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:29.779
 wait,

00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:29.940
 wait,

00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:30.080
 wait,

00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:33.140
 he's saying the tradition is more important or as important,

00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:34.140
 but he's not.

00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:35.039
 He's saying,

00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:38.600
 the scriptures have in fact been given to us.

00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:40.759
 If we didn't have them,

00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.720
 the only thing we would have to rely on would be the tradition.

00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:45.600
 Yes.

00:24:45.860 --> 00:24:46.299
 He stands,

00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:50.279
 he is admitting that the apostles did commit to pay for being paid.

00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.079
 But I think he's saying that the,

00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:53.360
 if I'm reading this right,

00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:00.100
 that the tradition is supporting everything that the scriptures are saying.

00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.819
 And then he goes on to affirm several things that the tradition confirms,

00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:05.720
 which we can confirm in scripture.

00:25:05.860 --> 00:25:06.100
 Right.

00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:06.720
 Right.

00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:08.220
 I think you're precisely,

00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:10.079
 precisely correct.

00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:10.679
 where he,

00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:13.179
 we'll talk more about this in a moment,

00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.339
 but he brings up this idea of tradition.

00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:17.659
 And he says,

00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:18.179
 Hey,

00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:19.259
 if we didn't have the scriptures,

00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:20.519
 we'd have to rely on,

00:25:20.579 --> 00:25:21.439
 on this.

00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:22.779
 And he says,

00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.419
 but this also is pretty good because it says the same thing as the scriptures.

00:25:26.419 --> 00:25:26.859
 So,

00:25:26.859 --> 00:25:28.939
 and then he gives as an example,

00:25:28.939 --> 00:25:30.480
 as a proof text,

00:25:30.639 --> 00:25:31.199
 he gives,

00:25:31.379 --> 00:25:31.639
 what about,

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.220
 he calls them barbarians.

00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.039
 This is probably not the best translation because for us,

00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.839
 the word barbarian is usually very negative for him.

00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.000
 What he just means is uneducated foreigners,

00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.799
 which in his day meant they didn't read or write.

00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:46.339
 They didn't have their language written down.

00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:47.139
 And he says,

00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:47.359
 well,

00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:48.059
 what about them?

00:25:48.159 --> 00:25:49.379
 They can't read the scriptures.

00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:51.519
 They don't have them in their language,

00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.000
 but there's still churches there.

00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:59.279
 They still believe the same things because missionaries went and taught them.

00:25:59.399 --> 00:26:02.460
 And this brings back to that original question I began the class with.

00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.319
 And it's not simply a hypothetical.

00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:07.000
 We have today,

00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:14.179
 I have met people in this church who were raised in a place where their parents did not read or write.

00:26:14.379 --> 00:26:16.759
 They didn't have the scriptures in their native language.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:18.000
 They had no access.

00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:18.919
 They didn't have internet.

00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.439
 They didn't have TV or things like that.

00:26:22.659 --> 00:26:23.319
 And that like,

00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:26.460
 we know there's thousands,

00:26:26.619 --> 00:26:34.679
 even millions of Christians like that today in the world where they can't open up a Bible and read something because it's not in their language.

00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:36.380
 Or they can't read or write or both.

00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:39.980
 And what Irenaeus says is,

00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:42.180
 they believe the same thing.

00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:46.200
 And he gives this creed that they're taught.

00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:46.660
 And that,

00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:47.240
 again,

00:26:47.320 --> 00:26:48.800
 harkens back to that question I asked.

00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:50.900
 If you're a missionary in a culture like this,

00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:51.840
 of course,

00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:53.960
 you want to translate the Bible into their language.

00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:59.880
 But you're talking about probably a multi-decade endeavor to put their language,

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:02.120
 make characters for their language,

00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:02.920
 written characters,

00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:04.380
 put it into the scriptures,

00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:05.700
 learn the language well enough.

00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:10.560
 The last thing you want to do is whip off a sloppy translation that has something wrong in it.

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.140
 That they then begin misbelieving.

00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:14.880
 And so you are forced to say,

00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:15.300
 all right,

00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:15.980
 I'm going to,

00:27:15.980 --> 00:27:18.200
 I'm going to tell you what to believe.

00:27:18.600 --> 00:27:19.000
 And,

00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:19.860
 and this,

00:27:20.060 --> 00:27:23.520
 and you're going to give some statement of faith that they should adhere to.

00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:25.059
 You'll probably start with the basics,

00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:28.799
 but Irenaeus goes to tradition to illustrate this.

00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:31.339
 But I think there's also something,

00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:35.079
 there's something a little more going on too,

00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:36.359
 in this,

00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:38.879
 that his tradition is not simply what,

00:27:38.879 --> 00:27:45.500
 what a missionary happened to articulate to a foreign people.

00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:46.559
 I think for him,

00:27:46.660 --> 00:27:49.859
 this does go back to the apostles.

00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:51.079
 There is this,

00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:52.579
 this tradition,

00:27:52.579 --> 00:27:55.899
 that's handed down from the apostles.

00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:57.299
 However,

00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:58.439
 for Irenaeus,

00:27:58.659 --> 00:28:01.519
 the scriptures are where we have recourse to,

00:28:01.679 --> 00:28:03.740
 and they kind of confirm this tradition.

00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.139
 There's this sort of symbiotic relationship.

00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:08.339
 In fact,

00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:09.679
 if you read,

00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:15.839
 if you read 2 Thessalonians 2.15,

00:28:16.919 --> 00:28:20.679
 Paul says something about this,

00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:21.680
 that's,

00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:22.240
 that's,

00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:23.640
 that's very interesting.

00:28:24.820 --> 00:28:25.799
 And I should have,

00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:27.299
 I should have brought my Bible with me.

00:28:27.740 --> 00:28:29.000
 So I'm just going to,

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:30.400
 I'm just going to look it up online here.

00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:34.279
 He says,

00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.940
 2.15,

00:28:38.019 --> 00:28:38.879
 did I say 3.15?

00:28:38.879 --> 00:28:39.599
 2.15,

00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:40.500
 2.15,

00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:41.019
 2.15,

00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:41.899
 2.15,

00:28:41.899 --> 00:28:42.799
 he says,

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:44.180
 so then brothers,

00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:45.519
 stand firm,

00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:48.420
 and hold to the traditions,

00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:50.779
 that you were taught by us,

00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.079
 either by our spoken word,

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:54.799
 or by our letter.

00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.899
 So for him,

00:28:57.700 --> 00:28:57.799
 the,

00:28:58.279 --> 00:28:58.940
 for Paul,

00:28:59.559 --> 00:28:59.839
 the,

00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:01.680
 the apostolic tradition,

00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.879
 is what the apostles taught,

00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:05.339
 either by letter,

00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:06.259
 by written form,

00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:08.940
 or by word of mouth.

00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:10.980
 And I think,

00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:11.900
 Irenias,

00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:14.240
 has that same idea,

00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:15.980
 that yes,

00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:16.600
 the apostles,

00:29:16.820 --> 00:29:17.480
 when they were teaching,

00:29:17.600 --> 00:29:17.960
 of course,

00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:19.440
 they're going to be saying all sorts of things,

00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:20.539
 at church on Sunday morning.

00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:21.940
 And that,

00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:23.100
 that carries authority,

00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:23.600
 and weight,

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:24.539
 and they would have,

00:29:24.860 --> 00:29:25.940
 the same message,

00:29:26.019 --> 00:29:27.680
 they would preach to various churches,

00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:29.480
 when they're planting these churches,

00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.140
 but they also have these letters.

00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:33.299
 And I think that,

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:34.720
 that,

00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.140
 Irenias has that,

00:29:36.220 --> 00:29:37.299
 that same idea.

00:29:37.539 --> 00:29:38.259
 But for him,

00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:40.079
 the tradition doesn't have,

00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:40.299
 like,

00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:41.279
 extra stuff.

00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:41.900
 There's not,

00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:43.000
 there's not,

00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:43.600
 like,

00:29:43.819 --> 00:29:45.440
 additional things.

00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.180
 It's,

00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:47.960
 it's all in the written documents,

00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:48.759
 that we have.

00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:49.740
 It's just,

00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:50.559
 they also,

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:51.900
 at that time in the early church,

00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.079
 had this apostolic deposit,

00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.860
 that he articulates right here.

00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:56.100
 I mean,

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:57.539
 he just says it's this basic,

00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:58.900
 statement of faith,

00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.220
 about that.

00:30:01.120 --> 00:30:01.360
 Any,

00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.380
 any thoughts,

00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:02.660
 Lewis?

00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:03.740
 It sounds,

00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:04.539
 like a lot of these,

00:30:04.539 --> 00:30:05.359
 sound pretty similar,

00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:06.460
 to sort of later creeds.

00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:07.799
 Is that an accident?

00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:08.480
 Or is that?

00:30:08.619 --> 00:30:08.799
 Oh,

00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:10.059
 totally on purpose.

00:30:10.899 --> 00:30:11.200
 Yes,

00:30:11.379 --> 00:30:12.079
 later creeds.

00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:12.339
 Like,

00:30:12.379 --> 00:30:12.819
 you notice,

00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:14.000
 at the beginning of Irenias,

00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:14.519
 this creed,

00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:15.779
 it sounds like,

00:30:15.940 --> 00:30:17.859
 like other later creeds.

00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:18.379
 And,

00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.399
 and that's because,

00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:20.200
 the,

00:30:20.399 --> 00:30:21.420
 these folks are not just,

00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:22.859
 coming up with this on their own.

00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:23.960
 This is something that,

00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:24.960
 was known,

00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:25.659
 widespread,

00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:26.879
 throughout the early church.

00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.119
 We're going to find this,

00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.259
 in the creed of Nicaea.

00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:30.039
 The Nicene creed,

00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:30.740
 wasn't just,

00:30:31.139 --> 00:30:32.460
 fabricated whole cloth.

00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:33.200
 They're taking,

00:30:33.399 --> 00:30:34.519
 from earlier creeds,

00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:36.399
 they're also borrowing language,

00:30:36.399 --> 00:30:37.319
 from the scriptures,

00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:38.379
 in,

00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.420
 in these creeds.

00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:40.500
 Um,

00:30:41.139 --> 00:30:41.659
 so,

00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:42.000
 I,

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:43.359
 I want to,

00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.359
 emphasize with this tradition,

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:47.639
 that sometimes Protestants,

00:30:47.639 --> 00:30:48.099
 get,

00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.319
 uh,

00:30:49.639 --> 00:30:50.440
 this idea,

00:30:50.539 --> 00:30:52.099
 that tradition is always bad.

00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:53.779
 and I think we need to be,

00:30:53.779 --> 00:30:53.799
 and I think we need to be,

00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.419
 a little more careful,

00:30:55.419 --> 00:30:56.399
 with that.

00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.139
 I think what we mean to say,

00:30:58.539 --> 00:30:58.939
 is,

00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.000
 tradition that contradicts,

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:01.679
 the scriptures,

00:31:01.959 --> 00:31:02.619
 is bad.

00:31:03.159 --> 00:31:03.639
 But,

00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:04.599
 if,

00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:05.419
 if it's,

00:31:05.419 --> 00:31:06.839
 apostolic tradition,

00:31:07.679 --> 00:31:08.019
 uh,

00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:09.679
 we should adhere to that.

00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:09.899
 I mean,

00:31:09.919 --> 00:31:10.679
 if it's actually,

00:31:10.679 --> 00:31:11.639
 from the apostles,

00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:13.419
 that is authoritative.

00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:13.680
 But,

00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.140
 what Ironias is making clear here,

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:15.660
 is that like,

00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:17.360
 but everything the apostles taught,

00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:18.140
 is in their writings.

00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:19.120
 We don't,

00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:20.740
 if we couldn't read or write,

00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:21.100
 sure,

00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:21.480
 we would,

00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:22.720
 we would have recourse to this.

00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:23.019
 But,

00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:24.880
 but we can read and write,

00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:26.039
 and so we're going to,

00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:27.820
 we're going to stick with the scriptures.

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:29.000
 Um,

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:31.859
 this is what Jesus says,

00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:32.920
 when he,

00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:34.299
 talks to,

00:31:34.299 --> 00:31:34.859
 the,

00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:36.339
 the Pharisees,

00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:37.720
 in the gospel of Matthew,

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.380
 chapter 15.

00:31:40.220 --> 00:31:40.559
 So,

00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:41.339
 if we take a moment,

00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.799
 to open that up,

00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.700
 what he says,

00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:46.599
 in chapter 3,

00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:47.740
 uh,

00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:48.059
 I mean,

00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:49.220
 chapter 15,

00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:50.440
 in the first three verses,

00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:51.799
 the Pharisees come to Jesus,

00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:53.180
 and they say,

00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:54.140
 why do your disciples,

00:31:54.220 --> 00:31:54.779
 break,

00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:56.579
 the tradition of the elders?

00:31:57.720 --> 00:31:58.940
 Why are you breaking,

00:31:59.000 --> 00:31:59.519
 in our tradition?

00:32:00.259 --> 00:32:00.559
 And,

00:32:00.859 --> 00:32:01.819
 Jesus responds,

00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:02.420
 and he says,

00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:03.539
 why do you break,

00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:04.740
 the commandment of God,

00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:06.099
 for the sake of your tradition?

00:32:06.940 --> 00:32:07.400
 So,

00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:07.960
 he says,

00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:08.359
 well,

00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:10.259
 it's because it's your tradition.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.079
 It's yours.

00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.059
 It's not God's tradition.

00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:15.900
 And then he goes on,

00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:16.940
 in,

00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:17.859
 verse,

00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:19.119
 nine,

00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:21.400
 where he quotes,

00:32:21.539 --> 00:32:22.200
 uh,

00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:22.740
 scripture,

00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.259
 and he says,

00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:24.839
 this people honors me with their lips,

00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:26.539
 but their heart is far from me.

00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.119
 In vain do they worship me,

00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.980
 teaching as doctrine,

00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:29.960
 the commandments,

00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:31.359
 the commandments of men.

00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:32.240
 So,

00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.480
 I think we should have this same view that,

00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:36.000
 um,

00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.200
 it's not that tradition is inherently bad,

00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:40.039
 or wrong,

00:32:40.099 --> 00:32:40.460
 or anything.

00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:41.640
 It's that,

00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:42.079
 uh,

00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:44.940
 we want to adhere to apostolic tradition,

00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:46.380
 which is found in the scriptures,

00:32:47.259 --> 00:32:47.519
 um,

00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.599
 and these other traditions that we hear about,

00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:52.019
 that contradict the scriptures,

00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:53.039
 are by definition,

00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:54.920
 not from God.

00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:56.940
 They are not given through the apostles.

00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:02.019
 These are traditions that Jesus would call the traditions of men,

00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:03.180
 that are just that,

00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:03.960
 and they shouldn't,

00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:06.019
 they shouldn't overstep what,

00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:07.560
 what God has given.

00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:09.059
 Yeah,

00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:09.259
 so,

00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:10.119
 one,

00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:10.519
 one,

00:33:10.639 --> 00:33:11.359
 there's a quick question.

00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:13.919
 When Paul uses that term tradition,

00:33:14.159 --> 00:33:14.200
 is,

00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.179
 is he using it in the same way that he uses,

00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:16.419
 like,

00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:17.519
 the faithful deposit?

00:33:17.919 --> 00:33:18.319
 Yes.

00:33:18.399 --> 00:33:18.440
 Yes.

00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:18.599
 Yes.

00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:20.000
 Yes.

00:33:20.419 --> 00:33:20.659
 Yes.

00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:21.460
 Um,

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:22.200
 I think so,

00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:22.360
 yeah.

00:33:22.580 --> 00:33:23.279
 And second thing,

00:33:23.340 --> 00:33:23.460
 I,

00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:25.019
 I think that's super interesting,

00:33:25.320 --> 00:33:25.800
 because I,

00:33:25.820 --> 00:33:28.880
 I know that Irenaeus is used a lot by Roman Catholics.

00:33:29.060 --> 00:33:29.259
 Yeah.

00:33:29.540 --> 00:33:32.920
 As a justification for why the,

00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:34.680
 the oral tradition that they,

00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:39.940
 they claim justifies a lot of particular Roman Catholic beliefs,

00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.740
 should be also authoritative on top of,

00:33:44.120 --> 00:33:45.100
 next to scripture.

00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:49.080
 And I think what you're saying here,

00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.579
 is I think the more nuanced way of saying is that,

00:33:52.139 --> 00:33:55.240
 there's a summation of what the Bible says in this,

00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:57.460
 this oral tradition,

00:33:58.220 --> 00:34:00.159
 and the scripture should confirm that,

00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:00.419
 not,

00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:01.579
 and they shouldn't be intentionally.

00:34:01.579 --> 00:34:01.939
 Yes.

00:34:02.659 --> 00:34:03.139
 Yes.

00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.019
 I think so,

00:34:04.179 --> 00:34:04.619
 precisely.

00:34:05.740 --> 00:34:06.000
 Um,

00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:07.299
 yeah,

00:34:07.419 --> 00:34:08.099
 not to,

00:34:08.259 --> 00:34:08.539
 I guess,

00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:09.079
 I guess I'll,

00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.639
 I'll say one more thing about this kind of tradition versus scripture,

00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:14.179
 and how that,

00:34:14.259 --> 00:34:15.900
 that actually shouldn't be intention at all.

00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:16.059
 They,

00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:16.719
 that,

00:34:16.779 --> 00:34:17.400
 that if,

00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.000
 if a tradition contradicts scripture,

00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:20.819
 then it's not apostolic tradition,

00:34:21.279 --> 00:34:21.880
 full stop.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.179
 But this is,

00:34:23.319 --> 00:34:23.639
 uh,

00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:24.739
 with our Roman Catholic friends,

00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:25.239
 we just,

00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:26.960
 who just elected a new Pope,

00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:28.239
 uh,

00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:29.500
 they have this belief,

00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.199
 belief of papal infallibility when the Pope speaks from the chair of Peter,

00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:34.440
 and it's this authoritative thing,

00:34:34.539 --> 00:34:36.559
 but hidden within that,

00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:37.900
 I think is,

00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:38.400
 I think,

00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:37.900
 I think is,

00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:40.000
 kind of an admission,

00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:41.599
 that they,

00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.299
 go beyond the scriptures,

00:34:43.299 --> 00:34:44.480
 because,

00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.259
 they wouldn't need,

00:34:46.259 --> 00:34:48.139
 an authoritative source,

00:34:48.259 --> 00:34:49.659
 to articulate new doctrines,

00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:51.360
 if their doctrines could be found in the scriptures,

00:34:51.759 --> 00:34:52.500
 because you would just,

00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:54.119
 point to the scriptures,

00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:54.699
 to say,

00:34:54.799 --> 00:34:55.779
 this is what we believe,

00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:57.179
 based on the scriptures,

00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:58.719
 but because,

00:34:59.440 --> 00:34:59.699
 I,

00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:00.500
 I believe that,

00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.279
 they can't do that with some other doctrines,

00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:04.640
 they have to have this other source of authority,

00:35:04.640 --> 00:35:06.019
 that is articulating these,

00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:07.420
 these statements,

00:35:07.740 --> 00:35:10.960
 and that source needs to be as authoritative as the scriptures,

00:35:11.740 --> 00:35:14.340
 and so it all lends to this papal infallibility,

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.700
 their argument is,

00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:17.340
 in part,

00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:19.280
 that the apostolic tradition,

00:35:19.640 --> 00:35:20.940
 is continuing now,

00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:22.960
 in the form of the,

00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:23.940
 the churches,

00:35:24.100 --> 00:35:24.300
 yes,

00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:25.260
 yes,

00:35:25.620 --> 00:35:26.060
 but,

00:35:27.019 --> 00:35:27.720
 but,

00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:29.019
 they still have to go beyond,

00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:29.640
 the scriptures,

00:35:30.200 --> 00:35:30.960
 in the New Testament,

00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:31.540
 are,

00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:32.480
 there are,

00:35:32.619 --> 00:35:33.320
 are still there,

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:33.920
 that they have to,

00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:35.360
 go beyond those,

00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:36.659
 it's what they're,

00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:37.559
 and they will claim,

00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:38.800
 we're continuing apostolic tradition,

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:39.179
 but,

00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:40.719
 the fact is,

00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:40.940
 if,

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:41.820
 if it was found,

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:43.300
 if what their particular beliefs were,

00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:44.079
 were found in the scriptures,

00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:45.000
 they wouldn't need,

00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.779
 all of these other apparatuses,

00:35:46.779 --> 00:35:47.860
 they could just point to,

00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:48.960
 to that.

00:35:49.759 --> 00:35:50.860
 There's often a question,

00:35:51.019 --> 00:35:51.119
 like,

00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.119
 if we found another letter from Paul,

00:35:53.579 --> 00:35:54.779
 we could authenticate it,

00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.059
 would that be part of the scriptures,

00:35:56.179 --> 00:35:56.880
 a part of the Bible?

00:35:57.400 --> 00:35:57.500
 Yeah.

00:35:57.619 --> 00:35:57.920
 And,

00:35:58.039 --> 00:35:58.759
 I think we would say,

00:35:59.019 --> 00:35:59.360
 yes,

00:35:59.519 --> 00:35:59.880
 but,

00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:03.579
 the way God relates to us,

00:36:03.619 --> 00:36:04.539
 is through his word,

00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:05.140
 and,

00:36:05.140 --> 00:36:06.519
 because we're his children,

00:36:06.720 --> 00:36:07.619
 he's going to give us,

00:36:07.700 --> 00:36:09.240
 everything that we need,

00:36:09.619 --> 00:36:10.700
 because he loves us.

00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:11.340
 So,

00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:12.340
 he's not going to withhold,

00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:12.880
 any,

00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:14.300
 any revelation,

00:36:14.300 --> 00:36:15.420
 that we need,

00:36:15.660 --> 00:36:16.920
 in order to,

00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:18.539
 for every good work,

00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:19.700
 to relate to him,

00:36:19.780 --> 00:36:20.340
 as our father.

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.039
 So,

00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:22.659
 I think it comes back to,

00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:24.619
 the scriptures are sufficient,

00:36:24.739 --> 00:36:25.800
 because he loves us,

00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:26.860
 and he's given us.

00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:27.259
 That's great,

00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:27.719
 yeah.

00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:29.079
 We don't need anything else.

00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:29.659
 Yes.

00:36:29.659 --> 00:36:31.059
 He wouldn't have withholded from us.

00:36:31.059 --> 00:36:31.279
 Yeah.

00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:32.440
 But,

00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.599
 and the scripture is complete,

00:36:34.700 --> 00:36:35.800
 because the Bible says,

00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:36.700
 that it's complete.

00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:37.539
 Yeah.

00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:37.780
 So,

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.019
 we're not going to find,

00:36:39.139 --> 00:36:40.099
 a letter from Paul,

00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.220
 because God tells us,

00:36:42.300 --> 00:36:42.820
 in his word,

00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.079
 that this book here,

00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:44.760
 is complete.

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:45.460
 Right.

00:36:45.700 --> 00:36:46.720
 Nothing else is going to,

00:36:46.720 --> 00:36:47.300
 there ain't going to be,

00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.240
 no letters out there,

00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:48.880
 from Paul,

00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:49.519
 Peter.

00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:50.019
 Yeah.

00:36:50.420 --> 00:36:50.700
 I mean,

00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:51.900
 he wrote a third letter,

00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:52.539
 to the church,

00:36:52.740 --> 00:36:53.680
 or one of the letters,

00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:53.960
 from the church,

00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:54.340
 of Corinth,

00:36:54.380 --> 00:36:55.119
 that we don't have.

00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:55.800
 But,

00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:56.660
 to your point,

00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:56.940
 like,

00:36:57.240 --> 00:36:58.300
 we don't need that letter,

00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:00.320
 in order for us,

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.440
 to be complete,

00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:02.500
 in our relationship,

00:37:02.619 --> 00:37:03.000
 with the father,

00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:04.039
 and the son of the church.

00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:04.340
 Yeah.

00:37:04.460 --> 00:37:04.559
 I mean,

00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:05.099
 I think maybe,

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:05.619
 to,

00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:06.119
 to,

00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:06.519
 to,

00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:07.360
 to Ravel's point,

00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:07.880
 it's like,

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:09.400
 maybe there's a reason,

00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:10.420
 the third letter,

00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:11.660
 didn't survive.

00:37:12.340 --> 00:37:12.539
 Right.

00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:13.300
 Because maybe the people,

00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:13.760
 at the time,

00:37:13.820 --> 00:37:14.119
 were like,

00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:14.420
 well,

00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:15.480
 you know.

00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:17.000
 He had an off day.

00:37:17.180 --> 00:37:17.640
 This is true.

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.059
 Or he's just like,

00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:20.680
 this is true,

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:20.960
 but,

00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:21.380
 you know,

00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:22.400
 he says it all,

00:37:22.460 --> 00:37:23.059
 in the second letter,

00:37:23.140 --> 00:37:23.760
 so we don't need to,

00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.180
 circular,

00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:25.400
 a third letter to repeat.

00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:25.920
 You know what I'm saying?

00:37:26.059 --> 00:37:26.460
 It's like,

00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:27.720
 I do think that,

00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:28.480
 when we think about,

00:37:28.640 --> 00:37:29.320
 what is in scriptures,

00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:30.200
 that we have to remember,

00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:30.539
 that like,

00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:31.059
 the apostles,

00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:32.180
 not everything,

00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:32.640
 like,

00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:33.200
 you know,

00:37:33.220 --> 00:37:34.019
 their tax receipts,

00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:34.940
 are not going to be,

00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:35.539
 part of scripture.

00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:36.420
 And so,

00:37:36.660 --> 00:37:38.160
 not everything they wrote,

00:37:38.300 --> 00:37:39.780
 is intended to be,

00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:41.079
 this authoritative thing.

00:37:41.180 --> 00:37:41.320
 Like,

00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:42.460
 Peter's letter to his wife,

00:37:42.500 --> 00:37:43.300
 or something like that,

00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:43.460
 is,

00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:45.119
 is a private matter.

00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:46.220
 And we know that,

00:37:46.740 --> 00:37:46.980
 so,

00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:47.280
 so,

00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.080
 there's a difference,

00:37:48.080 --> 00:37:49.280
 between what they wrote,

00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:50.760
 and what they wrote as scripture.

00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:51.000
 You know,

00:37:51.080 --> 00:37:51.960
 Jeremiah the prophet,

00:37:52.080 --> 00:37:52.680
 he wrote scripture.

00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.040
 Not everything he wrote,

00:37:54.120 --> 00:37:54.580
 is scripture.

00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.100
 It's what is in the book,

00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:57.240
 of Jeremiah,

00:37:57.380 --> 00:37:58.120
 that are his words,

00:37:58.200 --> 00:37:58.780
 and prophecies.

00:37:59.100 --> 00:37:59.100


00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:00.580
 that's another factor.

00:38:00.580 --> 00:38:01.460
 And they had a conversation,

00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:02.680
 that they were writing the scripture.

00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:02.980
 Yeah.

00:38:03.120 --> 00:38:03.300
 Right?

00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:04.080
 They were like,

00:38:04.140 --> 00:38:04.460
 if you,

00:38:04.600 --> 00:38:05.640
 they disagree with this letter,

00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:06.500
 they're not actually.

00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:06.720
 Well,

00:38:07.060 --> 00:38:08.920
 Paul says that in 2 Thessalonians.

00:38:09.140 --> 00:38:09.880
 He also says,

00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:10.840
 I think in 1 Thessalonians,

00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:11.920
 make sure that this letter,

00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:13.220
 is read out in the churches.

00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:14.320
 And in the,

00:38:14.620 --> 00:38:15.320
 to Ephesians,

00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:16.460
 he says something very similar.

00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:18.000
 There's a letter coming from me.

00:38:18.260 --> 00:38:19.039
 Make sure that you,

00:38:19.099 --> 00:38:19.880
 you take heed to,

00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:20.659
 to read this.

00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:21.960
 And so,

00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:22.199
 I agree.

00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:22.340
 Like,

00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:23.500
 when we look at how,

00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:25.440
 how the canon was constructed,

00:38:25.579 --> 00:38:25.960
 it was just,

00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:28.840
 the consensus of churches,

00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:30.260
 who were holding to,

00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:31.079
 just,

00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:32.500
 Apostolic tradition,

00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:32.920
 saying,

00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:33.780
 okay,

00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:34.960
 what are you guys reading?

00:38:35.220 --> 00:38:35.480
 Okay,

00:38:35.539 --> 00:38:36.599
 this is what we're reading.

00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:37.699
 Yeah,

00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:38.059
 yeah,

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:38.480
 all of,

00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:39.840
 we're all reading the same things.

00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:40.079
 Yeah,

00:38:40.460 --> 00:38:40.679
 check.

00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:41.199
 Check.

00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:42.079
 Check.

00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:43.199
 And there is,

00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:45.039
 this is a larger conversation,

00:38:45.219 --> 00:38:45.840
 but there's the,

00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.980
 self-authentication,

00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:50.719
 self-authentication

00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.779
 aspect of the scriptures

00:38:53.779 --> 00:38:54.819
 that they speak to us.

00:38:54.860 --> 00:38:55.460
 It's just like,

00:38:55.699 --> 00:38:56.119
 you know,

00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:56.360
 when,

00:38:56.539 --> 00:38:57.659
 how do you apprehend truth?

00:38:57.819 --> 00:38:58.639
 How do you know,

00:38:58.719 --> 00:38:59.779
 if Jesus appears to you,

00:38:59.799 --> 00:39:00.340
 that it's Jesus?

00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:01.039
 We have this,

00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:03.159
 this truth sense.

00:39:03.319 --> 00:39:04.920
 Truth expresses itself.

00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:06.079
 I mean,

00:39:06.099 --> 00:39:07.840
 if the truth needs something else

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:08.800
 to attest to it,

00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:09.940
 it's not going to work.

00:39:10.539 --> 00:39:10.960
 And so,

00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:13.840
 the scriptures also press themselves on,

00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:15.099
 on you.

00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:19.039
 They don't need another source of truth

00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:19.860
 beyond the Holy Spirit.

00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:21.480
 This is all operating through the Holy Spirit

00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.500
 who leads us into truth.

00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:24.760
 I'd like to keep going,

00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:28.000
 and we'll just do a cursory overview

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.059
 of some of the other creeds.

00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:31.820
 Tertullian of Carthage in 200 AD,

00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:33.900
 he's our first Latin writer

00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.180
 in this list.

00:39:35.539 --> 00:39:36.680
 He's from North Africa.

00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:38.660
 He gives a very,

00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:40.220
 very short creed

00:39:40.220 --> 00:39:41.660
 in one of his works.

00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:44.160
 And I gave you this

00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:45.280
 because I wanted you

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:46.579
 to just take care

00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:47.760
 not to assume

00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:49.559
 that a shorter creed

00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:50.539
 means more primitive

00:39:50.539 --> 00:39:52.000
 or lower belief.

00:39:52.200 --> 00:39:52.980
 A lot of scholars

00:39:52.980 --> 00:39:53.980
 will make this mistake

00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:54.599
 where they think

00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:56.180
 this person articulated

00:39:56.180 --> 00:39:57.420
 a brief,

00:39:58.380 --> 00:39:58.619
 you know,

00:39:58.700 --> 00:39:59.740
 primitive creed,

00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:00.160
 therefore,

00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:02.200
 they hadn't had this exalted view

00:40:02.200 --> 00:40:03.400
 of Jesus or anything.

00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:05.960
 That is not true.

00:40:06.539 --> 00:40:08.200
 Because Tertullian gives other creeds

00:40:08.200 --> 00:40:09.160
 where he is very,

00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:09.940
 very explicit

00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:11.579
 with what he believes.

00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:12.460
 And you can see

00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:13.599
 in the second

00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:18.079
 creed of Tertullian,

00:40:18.260 --> 00:40:19.539
 it's more explicit.

00:40:19.740 --> 00:40:20.820
 Things are more laid out.

00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:23.519
 He explicitly talks about

00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:25.539
 Jesus being divine

00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:27.119
 in that creed,

00:40:27.180 --> 00:40:28.119
 where in the other creed,

00:40:28.180 --> 00:40:30.059
 he doesn't happen to mention that.

00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:32.679
 Sometimes,

00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:33.380
 if you,

00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:33.860
 for instance,

00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.219
 given your historical context,

00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:37.219
 you may find

00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:39.039
 something that is omitted

00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:40.059
 in one of these creeds

00:40:40.059 --> 00:40:41.179
 to be a little troubling.

00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:41.840
 So, for instance,

00:40:41.900 --> 00:40:42.920
 if you're always doing ministry

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:43.940
 amongst Jehovah's Witnesses

00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:45.019
 where the deity of Christ

00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:46.619
 is paramount,

00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:47.480
 that's like the number one

00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:48.159
 dividing factor,

00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:50.259
 if you were going

00:40:50.259 --> 00:40:50.820
 to make a creed,

00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.719
 you'd probably always

00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:52.440
 be emphasizing

00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:53.360
 the deity of Jesus

00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:54.119
 again and again.

00:40:54.579 --> 00:40:55.460
 But, you know,

00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:57.799
 if you were in 107 AD

00:40:57.799 --> 00:40:58.480
 where everybody

00:40:58.480 --> 00:40:59.779
 actually thinks

00:40:59.779 --> 00:41:00.679
 Jesus is divine,

00:41:00.779 --> 00:41:01.519
 they just have trouble

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:02.380
 with him being human,

00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:04.559
 you'd have a different reaction.

00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:05.000
 You'd think,

00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:05.759
 well, why aren't you

00:41:05.759 --> 00:41:06.359
 again and again

00:41:06.359 --> 00:41:07.460
 emphasizing that he's human,

00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:07.940
 that he's human,

00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:08.400
 that he's human?

00:41:08.500 --> 00:41:08.759
 And so,

00:41:09.259 --> 00:41:11.119
 keep that in mind,

00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:12.219
 that the context

00:41:12.219 --> 00:41:13.079
 in which they're writing

00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:13.880
 may be different

00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:15.440
 and that may affect

00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:16.639
 the points they happen

00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.559
 to land upon.

00:41:19.759 --> 00:41:21.719
 I wanted to go to

00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.279
 Cyprian on page three,

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.680
 another Latin writer.

00:41:25.100 --> 00:41:26.420
 He died a martyr's death.

00:41:27.060 --> 00:41:28.500
 I really admire him a lot.

00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:29.740
 I got to warn you

00:41:29.740 --> 00:41:30.260
 about this one.

00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:31.740
 This is a fragmentary

00:41:31.740 --> 00:41:33.320
 reconstructed creed.

00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:34.540
 What happens is

00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:35.480
 Cyprian wrote a number

00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:36.040
 of epistles,

00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:37.620
 letters that we have

00:41:37.620 --> 00:41:38.880
 and in these letters

00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.019
 he will say,

00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:40.960
 oh, this is what people

00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:41.660
 say at baptism

00:41:41.660 --> 00:41:43.200
 and they'll say,

00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:44.320
 I believe in God the Father

00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:45.780
 and his Son Christ

00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:46.600
 and the Holy Ghost.

00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:47.519
 I believe the forgiveness

00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:48.740
 of sins and eternal life

00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:49.460
 through the Holy Church.

00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:51.960
 But this is two statements

00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.559
 that Cyprian kind of

00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:54.980
 makes in an argument

00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:56.300
 that people have put together

00:41:56.300 --> 00:41:57.820
 to try and reconstruct

00:41:57.820 --> 00:41:59.420
 what Christians would confess

00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:00.240
 at baptism.

00:42:00.699 --> 00:42:02.019
 So, it's incomplete.

00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:03.900
 It's probably not everything

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:04.740
 they would say.

00:42:05.240 --> 00:42:05.679
 But,

00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:07.420
 I include this

00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:08.179
 because it's early,

00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:08.740
 it's interesting,

00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:10.099
 but also to show that

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:11.260
 a creed,

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:12.159
 one of the purposes

00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:13.079
 of a creed,

00:42:13.539 --> 00:42:15.039
 is your profession of faith

00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:15.599
 at baptism.

00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:16.800
 When you stand before

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:17.960
 the church,

00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:19.460
 it's a way of saying,

00:42:19.460 --> 00:42:20.840
 I believe these things,

00:42:21.019 --> 00:42:22.420
 I confess them publicly,

00:42:22.579 --> 00:42:23.619
 I belong to you,

00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:24.500
 to Christ,

00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:26.159
 to Christ's church.

00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:27.099
 So,

00:42:27.220 --> 00:42:28.099
 one of the purposes

00:42:28.099 --> 00:42:29.099
 of creeds

00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:30.360
 is not just

00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.199
 articulating

00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:32.340
 Christian belief,

00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:33.360
 it's a way

00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:34.599
 to affirm

00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:35.460
 that you are part

00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:36.440
 of a Christian community,

00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:37.800
 that you belong

00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:38.860
 to that community.

00:42:41.240 --> 00:42:42.280
 To summarize,

00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:43.099
 I'm going to erase

00:42:43.099 --> 00:42:43.880
 some of this here,

00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:45.740
 that the purposes

00:42:45.739 --> 00:42:47.359
 of the creeds

00:42:47.359 --> 00:42:49.479
 are diverse.

00:42:50.179 --> 00:42:50.439
 So,

00:42:50.539 --> 00:42:50.959
 some of them

00:42:50.959 --> 00:42:51.299
 were given

00:42:51.299 --> 00:42:52.019
 at baptism

00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:52.959
 as kind of

00:42:52.959 --> 00:42:54.159
 an affirmation

00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:55.279
 of

00:42:55.279 --> 00:42:58.019
 communal belief

00:42:58.019 --> 00:42:59.539
 to be part

00:42:59.539 --> 00:43:00.359
 of that communion

00:43:00.359 --> 00:43:02.299
 of saints.

00:43:03.319 --> 00:43:03.859
 But,

00:43:03.939 --> 00:43:04.439
 some of it

00:43:04.439 --> 00:43:05.139
 gives just

00:43:05.139 --> 00:43:05.619
 sort of

00:43:05.619 --> 00:43:06.219
 a brief

00:43:06.219 --> 00:43:07.139
 story

00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:08.000
 of redemption

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:08.659
 history.

00:43:10.099 --> 00:43:11.559
 It explains

00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:12.419
 Christian belief.

00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:12.619
 So,

00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:13.000
 instead of

00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:13.559
 affirming

00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:14.259
 your belonging

00:43:14.259 --> 00:43:15.019
 to a community,

00:43:15.019 --> 00:43:16.599
 you're explaining

00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:17.800
 Christian belief

00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:18.920
 to someone.

00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:20.239
 Another

00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:21.900
 aspect of it

00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:23.079
 is to protect

00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:23.739
 against

00:43:23.739 --> 00:43:24.619
 trouble spots,

00:43:24.759 --> 00:43:24.860
 you know,

00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:25.320
 to protect

00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:25.920
 against

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.800
 heresies.

00:43:28.820 --> 00:43:29.639
 As we're going

00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:30.440
 to find out,

00:43:30.699 --> 00:43:31.280
 there are some

00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:32.019
 heresies that are

00:43:32.019 --> 00:43:32.940
 very difficult

00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:33.739
 to pin down.

00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:35.199
 And this happened

00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:36.119
 throughout many times

00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:36.780
 in church history

00:43:36.780 --> 00:43:37.659
 where you would

00:43:37.659 --> 00:43:39.119
 have a church

00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:39.960
 and all of a sudden

00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:40.699
 you discover

00:43:40.699 --> 00:43:42.659
 that a significant

00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:43.300
 percentage of the

00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:44.039
 people in the church

00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:44.780
 believed

00:43:44.780 --> 00:43:45.780
 something that

00:43:45.780 --> 00:43:46.620
 is terrible.

00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:47.420
 But,

00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:48.740
 what you had,

00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:49.220
 your current

00:43:49.220 --> 00:43:49.820
 teaching,

00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:51.640
 wasn't able

00:43:51.640 --> 00:43:52.780
 to detect

00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:53.460
 that.

00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:54.480
 And it

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:55.320
 slipped through.

00:43:55.700 --> 00:43:56.000
 So,

00:43:56.220 --> 00:43:57.260
 you could imagine,

00:43:57.420 --> 00:43:57.860
 for instance,

00:43:57.940 --> 00:43:58.540
 if we had never

00:43:58.540 --> 00:43:59.080
 gone through the

00:43:59.080 --> 00:43:59.620
 whole Gnostic

00:43:59.620 --> 00:44:00.500
 conflict in the

00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:01.380
 first few centuries,

00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:03.460
 that a lot of

00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:03.960
 the creeds

00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:04.580
 and preaching

00:44:04.580 --> 00:44:05.820
 in our church

00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:06.800
 would not

00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:07.420
 cover

00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:08.620
 Jesus being,

00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:08.940
 like,

00:44:09.080 --> 00:44:09.780
 actually having

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:10.460
 a human body,

00:44:10.620 --> 00:44:11.620
 having a human mind,

00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:12.600
 having all of this.

00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:13.000
 And you could

00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:14.319
 imagine that

00:44:14.319 --> 00:44:15.079
 one day you

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:15.699
 find out that

00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:16.259
 like half the

00:44:16.259 --> 00:44:16.860
 people think

00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:17.360
 that he was

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:18.219
 just a phantom

00:44:18.219 --> 00:44:19.139
 that looked human.

00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:20.440
 And you'd all

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:21.259
 of a sudden realize,

00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:21.980
 oh my goodness,

00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:22.319
 no,

00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:22.819
 look at the

00:44:22.819 --> 00:44:23.099
 scriptures,

00:44:23.279 --> 00:44:23.940
 he's really human,

00:44:24.019 --> 00:44:24.460
 look at all these

00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:24.860
 passages,

00:44:25.099 --> 00:44:25.759
 and you'd have to

00:44:25.759 --> 00:44:26.219
 come up with

00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:27.019
 some kind of

00:44:27.019 --> 00:44:27.619
 set of teaching.

00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:29.259
 The last thing,

00:44:29.339 --> 00:44:30.159
 for the purposes

00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:30.860
 of the creeds,

00:44:31.339 --> 00:44:32.500
 is it promotes

00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:32.920
 unity.

00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:34.960
 Unity of

00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:35.759
 churches

00:44:35.759 --> 00:44:36.599
 throughout

00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:37.759
 the

00:44:37.759 --> 00:44:39.400
 world.

00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:40.860
 they're

00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:41.380
 unifiers,

00:44:41.539 --> 00:44:41.820
 or they

00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:42.340
 should be.

00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:42.840
 We will

00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:43.260
 find out

00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:43.720
 later on

00:44:43.720 --> 00:44:44.000
 that they

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:44.500
 don't always

00:44:44.500 --> 00:44:44.920
 unify,

00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:45.539
 sometimes they

00:44:45.539 --> 00:44:46.019
 separate

00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:47.119
 needlessly,

00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:48.139
 but they

00:44:48.139 --> 00:44:48.660
 should.

00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:50.700
 If we

00:44:50.700 --> 00:44:51.000
 move on

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:51.539
 to Novation

00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:52.619
 of Rome,

00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:54.079
 Novation

00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:54.639
 is the

00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:55.160
 first Roman

00:44:55.160 --> 00:44:55.660
 writer to

00:44:55.660 --> 00:44:56.119
 write in

00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:56.420
 Latin,

00:44:57.260 --> 00:44:58.180
 and he

00:44:58.180 --> 00:44:59.780
 has a

00:44:59.780 --> 00:45:00.220
 very interesting

00:45:00.220 --> 00:45:00.599
 creed.

00:45:00.900 --> 00:45:01.240
 Novation

00:45:01.240 --> 00:45:02.820
 started his

00:45:02.820 --> 00:45:03.599
 own church

00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.139
 called the

00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:04.840
 Novationists,

00:45:05.660 --> 00:45:07.119
 and there's

00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:07.420
 some good

00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:07.900
 things to say

00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:08.360
 about him,

00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:08.840
 there's some

00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:09.139
 not good

00:45:09.139 --> 00:45:09.380
 things to

00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:09.780
 say about

00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:10.039
 him.

00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:12.180
 In some

00:45:12.180 --> 00:45:12.700
 ways,

00:45:12.980 --> 00:45:13.539
 if you

00:45:13.539 --> 00:45:13.980
 wanted to

00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:14.480
 view him

00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:15.500
 positively,

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.320
 he would

00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:16.780
 be like

00:45:16.780 --> 00:45:17.220
 an early

00:45:17.220 --> 00:45:18.180
 proto-Protestant.

00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:20.420
 Is that

00:45:20.420 --> 00:45:20.740
 a

00:45:20.740 --> 00:45:21.619
 like a

00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:22.160
 mechanistic

00:45:22.160 --> 00:45:22.519
 way of

00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:23.000
 looking back

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:23.260
 at it?

00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:23.599
 Because I

00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:23.940
 thought some

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:24.119
 of the

00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:24.720
 Novationists

00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:25.280
 were present

00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:25.860
 in Nicaea

00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:26.300
 until they

00:45:26.300 --> 00:45:26.599
 signed.

00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:28.280
 I believe

00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:29.880
 they agreed

00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:30.340
 with the

00:45:30.340 --> 00:45:30.680
 Nicene

00:45:30.680 --> 00:45:30.960
 Creed,

00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:31.900
 but declined

00:45:31.900 --> 00:45:32.559
 to sign

00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:32.980
 because they

00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:33.380
 didn't want

00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:33.559
 to be

00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:34.019
 associated

00:45:34.019 --> 00:45:34.760
 with the

00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:35.420
 imperial

00:45:35.420 --> 00:45:35.960
 church.

00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:36.760
 That was

00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:36.940
 my

00:45:36.940 --> 00:45:37.420
 understanding.

00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:38.860
 So that

00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.200
 they,

00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:40.820
 so in

00:45:40.820 --> 00:45:41.280
 other words,

00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:41.599
 they,

00:45:42.019 --> 00:45:42.900
 doctrinally,

00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:43.300
 they were

00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:43.920
 orthodox.

00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:44.760
 They didn't

00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:45.280
 believe all

00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:45.519
 sorts of

00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:46.059
 crazy stuff,

00:45:46.059 --> 00:45:46.740
 but they

00:45:46.740 --> 00:45:47.519
 thought that

00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:48.200
 the Roman

00:45:48.200 --> 00:45:48.700
 church,

00:45:48.700 --> 00:45:49.180
 as in the

00:45:49.180 --> 00:45:49.960
 imperial church

00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:50.360
 of the Roman

00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:50.720
 empire,

00:45:50.720 --> 00:45:51.519
 had been

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:51.900
 morally

00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:52.599
 corrupted,

00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:53.940
 and they didn't

00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:54.320
 want to be

00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.200
 part of that,

00:45:55.200 --> 00:45:55.840
 and they didn't

00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:56.420
 like the

00:45:56.420 --> 00:45:57.200
 interference of

00:45:57.200 --> 00:45:57.820
 the state

00:45:57.820 --> 00:45:58.860
 in the

00:45:58.860 --> 00:45:59.240
 church.

00:45:59.740 --> 00:46:00.059
 So in

00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:00.660
 some ways,

00:46:00.900 --> 00:46:01.120
 you know,

00:46:01.120 --> 00:46:01.640
 I'm kind of

00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:02.539
 sympathetic to

00:46:02.539 --> 00:46:03.160
 the Novationists.

00:46:03.159 --> 00:46:04.559
 there are,

00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:05.299
 you know,

00:46:05.359 --> 00:46:05.899
 we do have

00:46:05.899 --> 00:46:06.599
 the writings

00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:07.119
 of Novation,

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:07.960
 but we have

00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:09.440
 some detractors

00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:09.960
 who say

00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:10.559
 things about

00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:11.199
 him that

00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:11.899
 we wouldn't

00:46:11.899 --> 00:46:12.579
 probably agree

00:46:12.579 --> 00:46:12.859
 with.

00:46:13.899 --> 00:46:14.619
 We can talk

00:46:14.619 --> 00:46:14.940
 more about

00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:15.819
 him later.

00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:17.140
 I think the

00:46:17.140 --> 00:46:17.920
 question is,

00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:18.680
 is it an

00:46:18.680 --> 00:46:19.300
 acronymism to

00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:19.720
 say that

00:46:19.720 --> 00:46:21.120
 they were

00:46:21.120 --> 00:46:21.800
 forming a

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:22.019
 separate

00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:22.680
 organization

00:46:22.680 --> 00:46:24.280
 rather than

00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:24.660
 that sort

00:46:24.660 --> 00:46:25.640
 of, you

00:46:25.640 --> 00:46:25.740
 know,

00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:26.120
 bishops

00:46:26.120 --> 00:46:27.120
 manage local

00:46:27.120 --> 00:46:27.580
 affairs in

00:46:27.580 --> 00:46:28.220
 different regions

00:46:28.220 --> 00:46:29.400
 or among

00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:30.100
 their congregations,

00:46:30.220 --> 00:46:30.700
 and so it's

00:46:30.700 --> 00:46:31.300
 not actually

00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:31.980
 obvious that

00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:32.980
 these people

00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:33.360
 are actually

00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:34.940
 forming a

00:46:34.940 --> 00:46:35.700
 distinctly

00:46:35.700 --> 00:46:36.000
 separate

00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:36.519
 organization.

00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:37.360
 I think that

00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:37.700
 was their

00:46:37.700 --> 00:46:38.039
 intent,

00:46:38.120 --> 00:46:38.220
 though.

00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:38.480
 I think

00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:38.700
 that was

00:46:38.700 --> 00:46:39.120
 the whole

00:46:39.120 --> 00:46:40.180
 purpose of

00:46:40.180 --> 00:46:40.720
 it was,

00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:41.480
 we do not

00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:41.820
 want to be

00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:42.320
 part of this

00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:42.920
 other church,

00:46:43.539 --> 00:46:43.960
 so we're

00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:44.300
 going to

00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:44.880
 separate out

00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:45.180
 and have

00:46:45.180 --> 00:46:45.760
 our own

00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:47.140
 network of

00:46:47.140 --> 00:46:48.300
 churches that

00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:49.520
 are explicitly

00:46:49.520 --> 00:46:50.880
 disassociated

00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.060
 from you

00:46:52.060 --> 00:46:52.380
 guys,

00:46:52.500 --> 00:46:53.120
 even though

00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:54.160
 we believe

00:46:54.160 --> 00:46:54.620
 the same

00:46:54.620 --> 00:46:55.400
 stuff

00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:56.580
 doctrinally.

00:46:56.660 --> 00:46:56.700
 It's like

00:46:56.700 --> 00:46:56.600
 you can see

00:46:56.600 --> 00:46:57.260
 Second Baptist

00:46:57.260 --> 00:46:57.820
 Church in

00:46:57.820 --> 00:46:58.260
 any town.

00:46:59.300 --> 00:46:59.680
 Yes,

00:46:59.900 --> 00:47:00.620
 yes.

00:47:00.620 --> 00:47:01.160
 Welcome to

00:47:01.160 --> 00:47:01.640
 Second Baptist

00:47:01.640 --> 00:47:01.920
 Church.

00:47:02.100 --> 00:47:02.740
 We hate

00:47:02.740 --> 00:47:03.220
 First Baptist

00:47:03.220 --> 00:47:03.300
 Church.

00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:03.700
 We hate

00:47:03.700 --> 00:47:04.140
 First Baptist

00:47:04.140 --> 00:47:04.380
 Church.

00:47:05.100 --> 00:47:05.500
 Yes,

00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:06.260
 is that

00:47:06.260 --> 00:47:06.780
 song?

00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:08.620
 Anyway,

00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:09.760
 we can talk

00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:10.040
 more,

00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:11.320
 but one

00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:11.680
 thing that

00:47:11.680 --> 00:47:12.100
 Novation

00:47:12.100 --> 00:47:13.480
 mentions that

00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:13.960
 I wanted to

00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:15.260
 highlight is

00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:16.640
 he says,

00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:17.660
 he talks

00:47:17.660 --> 00:47:17.960
 about the

00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:18.340
 rule of

00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:18.840
 truce.

00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:19.640
 We believe

00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:19.940
 in God

00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:20.300
 the Father

00:47:20.300 --> 00:47:20.720
 Almighty.

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:22.160
 We believe

00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:22.580
 in the

00:47:22.580 --> 00:47:22.920
 Son of

00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:23.260
 God,

00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:23.860
 Christ Jesus

00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:24.340
 our Lord

00:47:24.340 --> 00:47:24.860
 God.

00:47:25.580 --> 00:47:26.200
 And moreover,

00:47:26.620 --> 00:47:27.240
 look what he

00:47:27.240 --> 00:47:27.740
 says here,

00:47:28.120 --> 00:47:28.840
 the order

00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:29.920
 of reason

00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:31.640
 and the

00:47:31.640 --> 00:47:32.240
 authority of

00:47:32.240 --> 00:47:32.740
 faith in

00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:33.440
 due consideration

00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:33.900
 of the

00:47:33.900 --> 00:47:34.500
 words of

00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:34.960
 Scripture.

00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:35.860
 So look

00:47:35.860 --> 00:47:36.140
 what he

00:47:36.140 --> 00:47:36.600
 says there.

00:47:36.600 --> 00:47:36.880
 Remember

00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:37.820
 that Irenaeus

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:38.640
 emphasized

00:47:38.640 --> 00:47:39.220
 Scripture

00:47:39.220 --> 00:47:40.520
 and that

00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:41.460
 the tradition,

00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:42.220
 this creed

00:47:42.220 --> 00:47:44.400
 is not

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:45.059
 different from

00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.380
 Scripture.

00:47:45.699 --> 00:47:46.260
 We should

00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:46.679
 go to the

00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:47.000
 Scriptures.

00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:48.240
 Novation

00:47:48.240 --> 00:47:49.240
 says that

00:47:49.240 --> 00:47:49.880
 this creed

00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:50.519
 is derived

00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:50.940
 from the

00:47:50.940 --> 00:47:51.260
 Scriptures,

00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:52.019
 but he

00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:52.780
 also says

00:47:52.780 --> 00:47:53.500
 it comes

00:47:53.500 --> 00:47:54.400
 from our

00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:55.280
 reason.

00:47:57.340 --> 00:47:58.039
 And that,

00:47:58.460 --> 00:47:59.119
 so he is

00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.159
 not arguing

00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:00.780
 for some

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:01.860
 separate source

00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:03.360
 of information.

00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:05.619
 He's arguing,

00:48:05.740 --> 00:48:06.579
 like a separate

00:48:06.579 --> 00:48:07.119
 source of

00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:07.860
 inspiration

00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.200
 where God

00:48:09.200 --> 00:48:10.099
 reveals new

00:48:10.099 --> 00:48:11.260
 truths to

00:48:11.260 --> 00:48:11.940
 a particular

00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:12.280
 bishop.

00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:13.360
 What he's

00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:14.140
 arguing is

00:48:14.140 --> 00:48:15.039
 that our

00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:15.720
 beliefs come

00:48:15.720 --> 00:48:16.079
 from the

00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:16.360
 Scriptures,

00:48:16.579 --> 00:48:17.260
 but also

00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:17.760
 our own

00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:18.180
 reason.

00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:18.640
 And I

00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:19.140
 think what

00:48:19.140 --> 00:48:19.599
 he means

00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:20.820
 is as

00:48:20.820 --> 00:48:21.640
 we look

00:48:21.640 --> 00:48:22.180
 at the

00:48:22.180 --> 00:48:22.519
 Scriptures

00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:24.240
 and examine

00:48:24.240 --> 00:48:24.420
 them.

00:48:24.500 --> 00:48:24.800
 So for

00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:25.200
 instance,

00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:26.740
 when there's

00:48:26.740 --> 00:48:27.360
 no place

00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:27.820
 in the

00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:28.059
 Scriptures

00:48:28.059 --> 00:48:28.720
 that says

00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:29.640
 Jesus is

00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:30.300
 100%

00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:30.800
 God and

00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:31.559
 100%

00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:32.360
 human.

00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:33.940
 That's

00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:34.360
 just a

00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:35.099
 summary of

00:48:35.099 --> 00:48:35.360
 them.

00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:36.120
 Instead,

00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:37.260
 according to

00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:37.620
 Novation,

00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:38.320
 we look

00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:38.579
 at the

00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:38.840
 Scriptures

00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:39.500
 and use

00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:39.680
 our

00:48:39.680 --> 00:48:40.180
 reason.

00:48:40.340 --> 00:48:40.559
 So when

00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:40.880
 Hebrews

00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:41.360
 says he

00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:41.780
 became

00:48:41.780 --> 00:48:42.380
 like us

00:48:42.380 --> 00:48:42.980
 in all

00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:43.579
 things,

00:48:43.579 --> 00:48:44.160
 in every

00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:44.680
 way,

00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:47.820
 and logically

00:48:47.820 --> 00:48:48.660
 that must

00:48:48.660 --> 00:48:49.519
 mean he's

00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:50.880
 human in

00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:51.360
 every way,

00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:51.940
 not just a

00:48:51.940 --> 00:48:52.360
 little bit,

00:48:52.660 --> 00:48:53.099
 not just

00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:53.559
 partially,

00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:54.460
 he's human

00:48:54.460 --> 00:48:54.780
 in every

00:48:54.780 --> 00:48:55.019
 way.

00:48:55.200 --> 00:48:55.480
 And so

00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:56.579
 this is

00:48:56.579 --> 00:48:57.200
 another

00:48:57.200 --> 00:48:58.700
 factor

00:48:58.700 --> 00:49:00.720
 of the

00:49:00.720 --> 00:49:01.660
 creeds

00:49:01.660 --> 00:49:02.220
 that they

00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:03.340
 are these,

00:49:05.660 --> 00:49:06.220
 it's a

00:49:06.220 --> 00:49:07.140
 method of

00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:07.859
 treating

00:49:07.859 --> 00:49:08.139
 the

00:49:08.139 --> 00:49:08.460
 scriptures

00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:09.379
 and distilling

00:49:09.379 --> 00:49:09.900
 them down

00:49:09.900 --> 00:49:10.859
 through the

00:49:10.859 --> 00:49:11.239
 logical

00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:13.199
 process of

00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:14.059
 just deducing

00:49:14.059 --> 00:49:14.739
 what they

00:49:14.739 --> 00:49:15.839
 actually say.

00:49:16.539 --> 00:49:17.019
 And this

00:49:17.019 --> 00:49:17.319
 is what

00:49:17.319 --> 00:49:17.980
 humans do.

00:49:18.139 --> 00:49:18.299
 I mean,

00:49:18.359 --> 00:49:18.799
 we're given

00:49:18.799 --> 00:49:19.719
 rationality by

00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:20.000
 God.

00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:20.319
 Raul.

00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:23.440
 understanding

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:24.620
 is necessary

00:49:24.620 --> 00:49:25.380
 for man's

00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:26.200
 full commitment.

00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:27.100
 Hence,

00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:27.960
 faith must

00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:28.600
 be spoken

00:49:28.600 --> 00:49:29.320
 and made

00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:30.019
 intelligible.

00:49:30.580 --> 00:49:31.120
 This is not

00:49:31.120 --> 00:49:31.680
 to say that

00:49:31.680 --> 00:49:32.200
 faith must

00:49:32.200 --> 00:49:32.840
 be enclosed

00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:33.460
 within the

00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:33.980
 limits of

00:49:33.980 --> 00:49:34.340
 reason,

00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:35.360
 but it does

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:35.820
 mean that

00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:36.559
 faith must

00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:37.160
 require

00:49:37.160 --> 00:49:38.140
 neither the

00:49:38.140 --> 00:49:38.760
 closing of

00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:39.260
 the mind

00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:40.080
 nor the

00:49:40.080 --> 00:49:40.580
 sacrifice

00:49:40.580 --> 00:49:41.360
 of the

00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:41.860
 integrity

00:49:41.860 --> 00:49:42.440
 of the

00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:42.640
 mind.

00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:42.980
 Yeah,

00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:43.199
 oh,

00:49:43.279 --> 00:49:43.719
 very good.

00:49:43.819 --> 00:49:44.079
 Yes,

00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:44.440
 yeah.

00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:45.619
 So,

00:49:46.059 --> 00:49:46.980
 I haven't

00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:47.440
 fully,

00:49:48.019 --> 00:49:48.839
 interestingly,

00:49:49.279 --> 00:49:49.739
 thought out

00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:50.339
 the implications

00:49:50.339 --> 00:49:50.719
 of how

00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:51.379
 reason affects

00:49:51.379 --> 00:49:51.739
 the faith

00:49:51.739 --> 00:49:52.039
 and stuff.

00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:52.259
 So,

00:49:52.379 --> 00:49:53.159
 I'm

00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:53.799
 pointing out

00:49:53.799 --> 00:49:54.739
 Novation's

00:49:54.739 --> 00:49:55.480
 position here

00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:57.139
 on how

00:49:57.139 --> 00:49:57.879
 the creed

00:49:57.879 --> 00:49:59.679
 was articulated,

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:01.420
 although I

00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:01.960
 find myself

00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:02.460
 agreeing with

00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:02.619
 him,

00:50:02.759 --> 00:50:04.739
 but I'm

00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:04.980
 a little

00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:05.639
 hesitant to

00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:07.480
 articulate it

00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:09.739
 definitively.

00:50:09.739 --> 00:50:11.939
 It's

00:50:11.939 --> 00:50:12.299
 interesting

00:50:12.299 --> 00:50:12.979
 talking about

00:50:12.979 --> 00:50:13.599
 Luther

00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:14.279
 forums,

00:50:15.319 --> 00:50:16.299
 where he

00:50:16.299 --> 00:50:16.699
 says,

00:50:17.059 --> 00:50:17.739
 unless you

00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:18.319
 show me

00:50:18.319 --> 00:50:20.539
 by scripture

00:50:20.539 --> 00:50:21.299
 and plain

00:50:21.299 --> 00:50:21.779
 reason,

00:50:21.879 --> 00:50:24.079
 he was

00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:24.959
 not establishing

00:50:24.959 --> 00:50:25.599
 a separate

00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:26.159
 source,

00:50:26.319 --> 00:50:28.079
 the ministerial

00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:28.779
 way to

00:50:28.779 --> 00:50:29.559
 actually draw

00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:30.319
 implications

00:50:30.319 --> 00:50:30.839
 from.

00:50:31.759 --> 00:50:31.879
 Yeah,

00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:32.799
 yes,

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:33.279
 yes.

00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:33.739
 And what

00:50:33.739 --> 00:50:34.199
 Van Til

00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:34.779
 would say,

00:50:34.959 --> 00:50:35.939
 thinking God's

00:50:35.939 --> 00:50:36.719
 thoughts after

00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:37.019
 him.

00:50:37.959 --> 00:50:38.519
 Very good,

00:50:38.659 --> 00:50:38.819
 yeah,

00:50:38.979 --> 00:50:39.419
 thinking God,

00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:39.840
 that's really

00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:40.159
 good.

00:50:41.019 --> 00:50:41.619
 And in some

00:50:41.619 --> 00:50:41.740
 ways,

00:50:41.780 --> 00:50:42.159
 how could it

00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:42.480
 be any

00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:42.980
 other way?

00:50:43.059 --> 00:50:43.639
 If we

00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:44.440
 can't use

00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:45.159
 our reason,

00:50:45.260 --> 00:50:45.659
 we can't

00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:46.320
 even understand

00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:46.780
 the scriptures.

00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:47.740
 That's

00:50:47.740 --> 00:50:48.900
 inherent in

00:50:48.900 --> 00:50:49.119
 it.

00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:50.159
 So,

00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:50.980
 I think

00:50:50.980 --> 00:50:51.360
 Novation

00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:51.740
 here is

00:50:51.740 --> 00:50:52.659
 just making

00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:53.220
 explicit

00:50:53.220 --> 00:50:54.099
 what must

00:50:54.099 --> 00:50:55.800
 be there.

00:50:57.059 --> 00:50:57.440
 If we

00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:57.820
 move on to

00:50:57.820 --> 00:50:58.220
 Origen of

00:50:58.220 --> 00:50:58.680
 Alexandria,

00:50:59.300 --> 00:50:59.780
 Origen,

00:51:00.099 --> 00:51:01.260
 very controversial

00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:01.800
 figure,

00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:02.460
 some people

00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:02.860
 said he was

00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:03.300
 a heretic,

00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:05.039
 and you

00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:05.700
 were about

00:51:05.700 --> 00:51:06.039
 to read a

00:51:06.039 --> 00:51:06.680
 passage where

00:51:06.680 --> 00:51:07.240
 you might

00:51:07.240 --> 00:51:07.599
 think he's

00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:07.940
 heretical,

00:51:07.940 --> 00:51:10.119
 I think

00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:10.480
 it's a bit

00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:10.920
 unfair to

00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:11.159
 call him

00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:11.519
 a heretic.

00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:12.720
 He died,

00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.079
 he was

00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:13.679
 tortured at

00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:14.240
 a very old

00:51:14.240 --> 00:51:14.679
 age after

00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:15.220
 teaching for

00:51:15.220 --> 00:51:15.599
 like 40

00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.000
 years,

00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:16.800
 and died

00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:17.059
 of his

00:51:17.059 --> 00:51:17.460
 wounds.

00:51:19.059 --> 00:51:19.639
 Faithful to

00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:19.920
 Christ,

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:20.519
 never denied

00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:21.000
 Christ,

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.500
 at least

00:51:21.500 --> 00:51:22.940
 if,

00:51:23.179 --> 00:51:23.420
 and I

00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:24.039
 think the

00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:25.639
 accusations of

00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:26.440
 him doctrinally

00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:26.840
 are a bit

00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:27.519
 overplayed,

00:51:27.579 --> 00:51:28.579
 but what

00:51:28.579 --> 00:51:29.380
 Origen does

00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:30.240
 is he wrote

00:51:30.240 --> 00:51:30.980
 a book called

00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:31.679
 On First

00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:32.340
 Principles,

00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:34.059
 where he

00:51:34.059 --> 00:51:35.200
 describes the

00:51:35.200 --> 00:51:35.680
 first principles

00:51:35.680 --> 00:51:35.940
 of the

00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:36.460
 Christian faith,

00:51:36.579 --> 00:51:36.980
 and he

00:51:36.980 --> 00:51:37.400
 gets into

00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:37.840
 all sorts

00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:38.400
 of speculative

00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:38.940
 theology,

00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:39.420
 which did

00:51:39.420 --> 00:51:39.800
 get him in

00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:40.200
 trouble down

00:51:40.200 --> 00:51:40.539
 the road,

00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:41.400
 but at the

00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:42.320
 beginning of

00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:42.700
 the book,

00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:43.920
 he says this

00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:44.660
 is apostolic

00:51:44.660 --> 00:51:45.039
 teaching,

00:51:45.240 --> 00:51:46.200
 and he runs

00:51:46.200 --> 00:51:46.700
 through it,

00:51:47.220 --> 00:51:48.360
 and I'm only

00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:48.800
 giving you an

00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:49.960
 excerpt here,

00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:50.780
 because he

00:51:50.780 --> 00:51:51.320
 talks about the

00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:51.780
 doctrine of the

00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:52.059
 Father,

00:51:52.539 --> 00:51:53.039
 and the doctrine

00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:53.559
 of the Son,

00:51:53.640 --> 00:51:53.960
 and then he

00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:54.340
 comes to the

00:51:54.340 --> 00:51:54.880
 Holy Spirit,

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:55.400
 and remember

00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:55.940
 that we have

00:51:55.940 --> 00:51:56.680
 mentioned how

00:51:56.680 --> 00:51:57.400
 the Holy Spirit

00:51:57.400 --> 00:51:58.240
 was not,

00:51:58.720 --> 00:51:59.059
 you know,

00:51:59.500 --> 00:52:00.460
 articulated as

00:52:00.460 --> 00:52:02.059
 clearly in

00:52:02.059 --> 00:52:02.699
 the earlier

00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:03.119
 creeds.

00:52:03.500 --> 00:52:04.019
 Listen to what

00:52:04.019 --> 00:52:04.599
 Origen says,

00:52:04.659 --> 00:52:04.960
 he says,

00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:05.440
 then again,

00:52:06.240 --> 00:52:06.840
 the apostles

00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:07.579
 delivered this

00:52:07.579 --> 00:52:07.980
 doctrine,

00:52:08.539 --> 00:52:09.039
 that the Holy

00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:09.619
 Spirit is

00:52:09.619 --> 00:52:10.380
 united in

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:10.980
 honor and

00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:11.579
 dignity with

00:52:11.579 --> 00:52:11.980
 the Father

00:52:11.980 --> 00:52:12.539
 and the Son.

00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:13.360
 Well,

00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:13.920
 that makes

00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.199
 sense,

00:52:14.260 --> 00:52:14.480
 that's

00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:14.940
 Trinitarian,

00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:15.760
 but then he

00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:15.940
 says,

00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:16.740
 in regard to

00:52:16.740 --> 00:52:16.920
 him,

00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:17.360
 it is not

00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:17.860
 yet clearly

00:52:17.860 --> 00:52:18.340
 known whether

00:52:18.340 --> 00:52:18.820
 he is to

00:52:18.820 --> 00:52:19.320
 be thought of

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:20.059
 as begotten

00:52:20.059 --> 00:52:20.880
 or unbegotten,

00:52:21.139 --> 00:52:22.220
 or is being

00:52:22.220 --> 00:52:23.360
 himself also

00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:23.940
 a son of

00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:24.599
 God or

00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:24.960
 not.

00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:27.059
 That's kind

00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:27.539
 of weird for

00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:27.679
 us,

00:52:27.720 --> 00:52:28.159
 we would never

00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:28.800
 call the Holy

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:30.079
 Spirit another

00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:31.019
 son of

00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:31.340
 God,

00:52:31.420 --> 00:52:32.960
 that's odd,

00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:34.340
 but these

00:52:34.340 --> 00:52:34.840
 are matters

00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:35.259
 which we

00:52:35.259 --> 00:52:36.279
 must investigate

00:52:36.279 --> 00:52:36.980
 to the best

00:52:36.980 --> 00:52:37.539
 of our power

00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:38.199
 from Holy

00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:38.719
 Scripture,

00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:40.519
 inquiring with

00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:41.519
 wisdom and

00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:41.980
 diligence.

00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:43.779
 So note

00:52:43.779 --> 00:52:45.000
 that he is

00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:45.400
 saying,

00:52:45.739 --> 00:52:46.819
 we've got to

00:52:46.819 --> 00:52:47.239
 go to the

00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:47.880
 Scriptures to

00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:48.299
 figure this

00:52:48.299 --> 00:52:48.539
 out,

00:52:48.579 --> 00:52:48.980
 and we need

00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:49.759
 to use our

00:52:49.759 --> 00:52:50.099
 wisdom,

00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:50.699
 our reason,

00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:51.360
 to try and

00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:51.799
 figure this

00:52:51.799 --> 00:52:52.219
 out.

00:52:52.759 --> 00:52:53.420
 You can see

00:52:53.420 --> 00:52:54.059
 how a

00:52:54.059 --> 00:52:54.519
 statement like

00:52:54.519 --> 00:52:54.960
 this could

00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.900
 make later

00:52:55.900 --> 00:52:56.659
 Christians very

00:52:56.659 --> 00:52:57.159
 uncomfortable,

00:52:57.319 --> 00:52:57.799
 the idea of

00:52:57.799 --> 00:52:58.900
 even suggesting

00:52:58.900 --> 00:52:59.539
 that the Holy

00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:00.119
 Spirit might

00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:00.840
 be a begotten

00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:01.219
 Son of

00:53:01.219 --> 00:53:01.519
 God,

00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:02.440
 might really

00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:02.980
 upset some

00:53:02.980 --> 00:53:03.279
 people.

00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:04.579
 This is

00:53:04.579 --> 00:53:05.440
 classic origin

00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:06.000
 because he

00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.079
 doesn't actually

00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:07.900
 say it,

00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:08.639
 he just

00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:10.840
 suggests it,

00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:11.599
 but then

00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:12.420
 affirms we

00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:13.000
 have to

00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:13.599
 follow the

00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:14.900
 Scriptures as

00:53:14.900 --> 00:53:15.559
 we're applying

00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:16.219
 our reason.

00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:17.900
 This does

00:53:17.900 --> 00:53:18.559
 highlight the

00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:19.360
 fact that for

00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:20.139
 whatever reason,

00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:22.139
 the nature of

00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:22.500
 the Holy

00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:23.099
 Spirit,

00:53:23.659 --> 00:53:24.759
 while part of

00:53:24.759 --> 00:53:25.179
 the Trinity

00:53:25.179 --> 00:53:25.719
 and you have

00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:26.059
 all these

00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:27.099
 triune expressions

00:53:27.099 --> 00:53:27.799
 in early

00:53:27.799 --> 00:53:28.400
 Christianity

00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:30.539
 is unclear.

00:53:31.299 --> 00:53:32.380
 It's not as

00:53:32.380 --> 00:53:34.339
 clearly articulated

00:53:34.339 --> 00:53:35.380
 as the

00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:35.920
 divinity of

00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:36.719
 Jesus is or

00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:37.299
 the divinity of

00:53:37.299 --> 00:53:37.719
 the Father

00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:38.719
 is.

00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:39.619
 And we

00:53:39.619 --> 00:53:40.679
 will find out

00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:41.339
 that eventually

00:53:41.339 --> 00:53:41.860
 they're going to

00:53:41.860 --> 00:53:42.639
 have some major

00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:43.179
 creeds that

00:53:43.179 --> 00:53:43.819
 address these

00:53:43.819 --> 00:53:45.099
 points and

00:53:45.099 --> 00:53:45.699
 we'll find out

00:53:45.699 --> 00:53:46.279
 that these

00:53:46.279 --> 00:53:47.179
 creeds are,

00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:48.980
 this one

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:49.259
 creed in

00:53:49.259 --> 00:53:49.960
 particular is

00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:50.799
 derived from

00:53:50.799 --> 00:53:51.219
 the Scriptures,

00:53:51.619 --> 00:53:52.739
 is looking at

00:53:52.739 --> 00:53:53.139
 the Scriptures

00:53:53.139 --> 00:53:54.319
 and applying

00:53:54.319 --> 00:53:54.839
 them.

00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.780
 And the

00:53:55.780 --> 00:53:56.340
 question of

00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:56.840
 why the

00:53:56.840 --> 00:53:57.360
 Holy Spirit

00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:57.720
 wasn't

00:53:57.720 --> 00:53:58.140
 emphasized,

00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:00.079
 we just have

00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.200
 to kind of

00:54:01.200 --> 00:54:02.059
 guess on this.

00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:03.360
 My thought is

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:04.240
 probably because

00:54:04.240 --> 00:54:06.140
 it just wasn't

00:54:06.140 --> 00:54:07.039
 disputed.

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:07.980
 The deity of

00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:08.400
 Christ was

00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:08.760
 disputed.

00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:09.280
 The humanity

00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:09.900
 of Christ was

00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:10.380
 disputed.

00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:10.600
 You know,

00:54:10.620 --> 00:54:11.039
 the final

00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:11.740
 judgment was

00:54:11.740 --> 00:54:12.200
 disputed.

00:54:12.240 --> 00:54:12.480
 These are

00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:13.160
 things that

00:54:13.160 --> 00:54:14.420
 they're

00:54:14.420 --> 00:54:15.000
 emphasizing,

00:54:15.180 --> 00:54:15.440
 but the

00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:16.260
 Holy Spirit,

00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:17.300
 there wasn't

00:54:17.300 --> 00:54:19.180
 really big

00:54:19.180 --> 00:54:21.140
 debates about

00:54:21.140 --> 00:54:21.940
 that in the

00:54:21.940 --> 00:54:22.640
 early church,

00:54:22.640 --> 00:54:23.240
 and so it

00:54:23.240 --> 00:54:23.720
 was kind of

00:54:23.720 --> 00:54:24.680
 left unaddressed.

00:54:25.820 --> 00:54:26.120
 That,

00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:26.579
 again,

00:54:26.700 --> 00:54:27.600
 it might feel

00:54:27.600 --> 00:54:28.180
 a little weird

00:54:28.180 --> 00:54:28.500
 to us,

00:54:28.579 --> 00:54:28.960
 but there

00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:30.320
 are points

00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:30.920
 of emphasis.

00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:31.940
 For instance,

00:54:32.500 --> 00:54:33.120
 if you read

00:54:33.120 --> 00:54:33.640
 the Creed of

00:54:33.640 --> 00:54:34.240
 Afrahat of

00:54:34.240 --> 00:54:34.620
 Persia,

00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:35.660
 he's writing

00:54:35.660 --> 00:54:36.220
 in this

00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:36.760
 environment in

00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:37.120
 Persia where

00:54:37.120 --> 00:54:37.440
 there's this

00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:38.140
 heavily Jewish

00:54:38.140 --> 00:54:38.660
 audience,

00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:39.140
 and his

00:54:39.140 --> 00:54:39.620
 creed is

00:54:39.620 --> 00:54:40.539
 clearly directed

00:54:40.539 --> 00:54:42.100
 at Christians

00:54:42.100 --> 00:54:42.740
 coming out of

00:54:42.740 --> 00:54:43.160
 Judaism.

00:54:43.720 --> 00:54:44.180
 And he says

00:54:44.180 --> 00:54:44.620
 all sorts of

00:54:44.620 --> 00:54:45.019
 stuff that you

00:54:45.019 --> 00:54:45.519
 probably wouldn't

00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:46.680
 dream of saying

00:54:46.680 --> 00:54:47.420
 in a creed,

00:54:47.620 --> 00:54:48.340
 but he's saying

00:54:48.340 --> 00:54:49.420
 it because of

00:54:49.420 --> 00:54:50.260
 the context he's

00:54:50.260 --> 00:54:50.420
 in.

00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:51.380
 I think that's

00:54:51.380 --> 00:54:51.800
 probably what's

00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:52.019
 happening.

00:54:52.019 --> 00:54:54.159
 I'm here to,

00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:54.719
 I can stick

00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:55.179
 around and talk

00:54:55.179 --> 00:54:55.619
 for a few more

00:54:55.619 --> 00:54:55.820
 minutes,

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:56.420
 but I want to

00:54:56.420 --> 00:54:56.739
 make sure we

00:54:56.739 --> 00:54:57.079
 can get down

00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:57.480
 to church.

00:54:57.880 --> 00:54:58.159
 So let me

00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:59.039
 just wrap up.

00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:00.079
 Next week,

00:55:00.179 --> 00:55:00.880
 we're going to

00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:01.280
 look at the

00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:01.980
 Nicene Creed,

00:55:02.420 --> 00:55:02.940
 which is the

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:03.360
 big one.

00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:04.239
 It's the big

00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:04.559
 one.

00:55:04.940 --> 00:55:06.940
 And then we

00:55:06.940 --> 00:55:07.259
 will,

00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:07.619
 I think,

00:55:08.300 --> 00:55:08.579
 John,

00:55:08.619 --> 00:55:08.920
 are you doing

00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:09.380
 the Apostles

00:55:09.380 --> 00:55:09.759
 Creed after

00:55:09.759 --> 00:55:10.000
 that?

00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:12.260
 if I'm

00:55:12.260 --> 00:55:12.539
 doing the

00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:12.900
 Apostles

00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:13.679
 Creed next,

00:55:13.780 --> 00:55:14.159
 whatever that

00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:14.320
 is.

00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:14.539
 Okay.

00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:15.460
 Yes.

00:55:15.539 --> 00:55:16.300
 But I

00:55:16.300 --> 00:55:17.159
 think probably.

00:55:17.539 --> 00:55:17.760
 Okay.

00:55:18.219 --> 00:55:18.420
 Okay.

00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:21.000
 Let's close

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:21.300
 in prayer.

00:55:21.739 --> 00:55:22.360
 Father in

00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:22.539
 heaven,

00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:23.420
 we thank

00:55:23.420 --> 00:55:23.739
 you for

00:55:23.739 --> 00:55:24.360
 this opportunity

00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:24.960
 to study

00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.059
 the creeds

00:55:26.059 --> 00:55:27.079
 and to be

00:55:27.079 --> 00:55:28.780
 reminded of

00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:29.619
 the authority

00:55:29.619 --> 00:55:30.460
 of your word

00:55:30.460 --> 00:55:31.480
 in the

00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:31.760
 scriptures.

00:55:32.219 --> 00:55:32.320
 Lord,

00:55:32.380 --> 00:55:32.920
 I pray that

00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:33.599
 these creeds,

00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:34.099
 like Tyler

00:55:34.099 --> 00:55:34.480
 said,

00:55:34.539 --> 00:55:34.800
 would be

00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:35.360
 hearing aids

00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:35.900
 for us,

00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:36.699
 highlighting

00:55:36.699 --> 00:55:38.039
 important parts

00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:38.639
 of the faith

00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:39.159
 that perhaps

00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:39.480
 we have

00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:40.440
 underemphasized

00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:41.460
 or misemphasized.

00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:42.599
 Lord,

00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:43.260
 I pray that

00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:43.780
 you would

00:55:43.780 --> 00:55:44.539
 encourage us,

00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:44.920
 you would

00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:45.960
 bless our

00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:46.679
 worship with

00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:47.460
 you downstairs

00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:48.019
 with the

00:55:48.019 --> 00:55:48.539
 congregation.

00:55:49.219 --> 00:55:49.639
 Fill us with

00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:50.219
 your Holy Spirit,

00:55:50.300 --> 00:55:50.679
 we pray.

00:55:51.219 --> 00:55:51.719
 In the name

00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:52.159
 of Jesus,

00:55:52.460 --> 00:55:52.619
 amen.

00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:52.800
 Amen.

00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:57.659
 Oh,

00:55:57.740 --> 00:55:57.960
 yes.