WEBVTT

00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:11.179
 Alright everybody, I would love to let us keep talking, but we've got limited time and Revelation is a big book, so we're going to jump in and get started. I'm going to open in prayer.

00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:19.960
 Father in heaven, we thank you that you give us the chance to study your word together and to learn what you have to tell us.

00:00:20.019 --> 00:00:26.560
 We pray that you would open our hearts to read your book of Revelation, God, which is particularly challenging for us.

00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:30.539
 We pray you'd give us humility, you give us insight and wisdom.

00:00:31.059 --> 00:00:38.640
 Lord, we pray that through the words of Revelation, we would be comforted and we would be exhorted to watchfulness.

00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:45.159
 And Father, we lift all this up in the name of your son Jesus, and it's in his name that we pray. Amen.

00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:47.420
 Well, welcome everyone.

00:00:48.539 --> 00:00:55.579
 It's really challenging to try and go over a book like Revelation in just one Sunday school class.

00:00:55.579 --> 00:01:05.719
 And so what we're going to do today is we're going to do a quick summary of Revelation, also including just a little bit of historical background.

00:01:06.140 --> 00:01:16.140
 And then we're going to jump in and talk about how to maybe interpret Revelation, some guiding principles, some general viewpoints, some rules of thumb, things like that.

00:01:16.379 --> 00:01:22.060
 And then hopefully we'll have some time for questions at the end because there's no way we'll be able to cover everything.

00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:26.560
 So if you have a burning question about something, ask away during the Q&A.

00:01:27.019 --> 00:01:30.219
 And if we have to close before that's done, I'll be here afterwards.

00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:31.219
 You can talk to me afterwards.

00:01:32.460 --> 00:01:33.540
 And we'll just go from there.

00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:35.200
 So let's begin.

00:01:35.299 --> 00:01:37.379
 A little bit of historical background about Revelation.

00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:39.620
 I've got a map up here of the ancient Near East.

00:01:39.820 --> 00:01:44.879
 And Revelation was seen on a little island called Patmos right around here.

00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:56.019
 It was seen by John, a disciple of Jesus, probably 80-something A.D., although you can argue it was in the 60s, like 65, 64 A.D.

00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:57.920
 There's a little bit of a debate over that.

00:01:58.539 --> 00:02:01.060
 And John sees this vision.

00:02:01.259 --> 00:02:04.340
 If you've read Revelation, you understand that he's on the island.

00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:08.640
 And he sees this exalted vision of Jesus who presents him a series of visions.

00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:15.460
 And before all that begins, though, Jesus tells John to write to seven different churches.

00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:21.199
 And that's how the book of Revelation begins, with these seven letters to seven churches.

00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:26.659
 And if we go through Revelation, there's various ways we can chart it out.

00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:28.120
 I got a couple different charts.

00:02:28.219 --> 00:02:30.180
 These aren't meant for you to follow in detail.

00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:33.420
 They're just meant so you can see how complicated the book is.

00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:39.759
 So if you look at this and you think this is overwhelming, that's kind of the point of the chart, is that it's pretty overwhelming.

00:02:39.959 --> 00:02:46.139
 And what this chart does here is it begins at the beginning of the book and just carries on straight through like this.

00:02:46.679 --> 00:02:47.839
 This chart is different.

00:02:48.019 --> 00:02:53.619
 It starts up here, and it kind of loops around like this.

00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.359
 And in some ways, that's a better diagram.

00:02:57.239 --> 00:03:01.359
 But what I want to do is just walk us through a quick summary of the book of Revelation.

00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.840
 And then we'll talk about how to interpret it.

00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.380
 So, like I said, the book begins with this vision of Jesus.

00:03:10.600 --> 00:03:16.940
 John is on Patmos, and he's given seven messages to seven different churches.

00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:23.380
 And the first several chapters of Revelation are these messages to these seven churches.

00:03:23.379 --> 00:03:27.620
 That's chapters 1 through 4, 1 through 3.

00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:35.780
 And then in chapter 4, John is given this kind of exalted vision of a heavenly throne room scene.

00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:37.280
 There's a slain lamb.

00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:38.819
 There's a lot of stuff going on in there.

00:03:39.219 --> 00:03:43.960
 And then a scroll is presented to the lamb.

00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:45.960
 And no one's able to open the scroll.

00:03:46.099 --> 00:03:47.280
 It's sealed with seven seals.

00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:57.500
 And then as the lamb opens the scroll, there's these visions that pop up throughout the period of these seven seals in chapter 6 through 8.

00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:58.699
 So you've got seven seals.

00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:05.360
 And these seven seals, the seventh seal is opened, and we get seven trumpets.

00:04:05.420 --> 00:04:09.659
 And we get another series of visions in Revelation chapter 8 through 11.

00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:14.860
 And then we've got, in chapter 12, things switch around.

00:04:14.860 --> 00:04:17.280
 We've got all these figures that appear.

00:04:17.379 --> 00:04:19.960
 There's a woman, a child, a dragon, an archangel.

00:04:19.960 --> 00:04:22.080
 There's a beast from the sea, a beast from the earth.

00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:23.819
 There's a terrible struggle.

00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:30.960
 And then in chapter 14, we see that the Son of Man appears.

00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.060
 He has this, like, harvester who's going to harvest the earth.

00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.379
 And then after that, we have seven bowls of wrath, another series of visions.

00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:52.319
 So if we're on this particular chart, the seven seals and the seven trumpets and the seven signs or figures and then the seven bowls in this chart are kind of running in parallel with one another.

00:04:52.319 --> 00:05:02.719
 And then after the seven bowls, there's this kind of vision of judgment of this mysterious figure called Babylon.

00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:07.879
 And then there's this final battle with this millennial reign of Jesus, which is very mysterious.

00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:13.259
 And then there's finally the end, where there's this new heavens and a new earth.

00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:19.139
 There's a marriage with the Lamb of God, the church, and the Lamb are married together at the end.

00:05:19.139 --> 00:05:27.339
 And the closing words of the book, John is told to not seal up the prophecy, to not seal it up.

00:05:27.919 --> 00:05:31.759
 And there's also a warning about adding and taking away from the book.

00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:36.639
 Well, if that was overwhelming, that's very understandable.

00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:42.079
 Most people find Revelation confusing and overwhelming and bewildering.

00:05:42.899 --> 00:05:47.039
 And people, when they encounter the text, they often have several questions.

00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:48.800
 There's actually hundreds of questions people have.

00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:51.080
 We're going to focus on just some of them.

00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:55.040
 So one thing people wonder is they wonder, what's going on here?

00:05:55.280 --> 00:05:57.280
 Like, how do I make sense of Revelation?

00:05:57.540 --> 00:05:58.620
 What's it?

00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:05.060
 When I start reading it, I feel like I get partway through the book and then I lose the narrative thread.

00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:06.580
 The coherency kind of falls apart.

00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:08.340
 I feel like I'm turned around.

00:06:08.460 --> 00:06:09.759
 I don't know which direction to look.

00:06:09.820 --> 00:06:12.900
 I don't understand exactly what's happening and how the pieces fit together.

00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:20.319
 But another question people have is they wonder, how allegorical is Revelation anyway?

00:06:20.899 --> 00:06:23.779
 You've got these demonic locusts.

00:06:23.859 --> 00:06:24.639
 There's dragons.

00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:25.719
 There's an earth beast.

00:06:25.819 --> 00:06:26.500
 A sea beast.

00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:28.279
 There's all this crazy stuff going on.

00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:35.359
 And people wonder, is this meant to be literal or are these symbols or allegories?

00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.379
 And if they are symbols or allegories, what do they relate to?

00:06:40.340 --> 00:06:42.020
 How are you supposed to understand them?

00:06:42.500 --> 00:06:47.540
 Some other questions people have is, what about the rapture?

00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:52.240
 In certain Christian circles, the rapture is a doctrine that's a really big deal.

00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:58.500
 The rapture is this idea that Jesus will come and take faithful believers to himself.

00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:04.519
 And often this occurs before all this bad stuff in Revelation actually goes down.

00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:05.600
 Although not always.

00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:08.819
 It depends on the particular doctrinal flavor we're talking about.

00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:10.360
 But what about that?

00:07:10.459 --> 00:07:11.579
 What should I believe about that?

00:07:12.100 --> 00:07:14.980
 And what about the millennial reign of Jesus?

00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.279
 You might have caught that when I was giving a summary.

00:07:17.939 --> 00:07:23.660
 That at the end, towards the end, there's this millennium where Jesus reigns on earth.

00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:24.819
 A thousand year period.

00:07:24.819 --> 00:07:29.180
 And that's very controversial in Christian circles about how to interpret that.

00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.599
 Is this a literal thousand year physical earthly reign of Jesus?

00:07:33.819 --> 00:07:34.779
 Is this something else?

00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:35.719
 What's going on here?

00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.879
 And then finally, what's the purpose of Revelation?

00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:39.560
 Why?

00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.800
 Some people, you know, we all have our favorite books.

00:07:44.019 --> 00:07:45.699
 And we all have our least favorite books.

00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:47.899
 And for many people, Revelation is their least favorite book.

00:07:47.980 --> 00:07:52.000
 I would say it's probably the most polarizing book in the Bible.

00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:55.540
 Because there's a big chunk of people that love it.

00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:58.519
 And there's a big chunk of people that don't like it that much.

00:07:58.660 --> 00:08:03.300
 Even if they think it's scripture, it just doesn't speak to them as much.

00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:05.779
 And then there's a chunk of people who are kind of just confused by it.

00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:08.420
 So what's the whole purpose of it anyway?

00:08:09.379 --> 00:08:12.939
 What we're going to do in our remaining time is we're going to try to work through these questions.

00:08:13.060 --> 00:08:15.519
 We're going to spend a lot of time on this one as well.

00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:18.240
 But then we're going to treat these others as we go.

00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:20.459
 So let's start out with this one.

00:08:20.459 --> 00:08:21.620
 What's going on with Revelation?

00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:23.680
 How do I make sense of it?

00:08:24.979 --> 00:08:35.500
 If you canvas scholars and you canvas church history, it turns out that there's basically four different models for interpreting Revelation.

00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.299
 And what I want to do is walk through these models with you.

00:08:40.419 --> 00:08:42.779
 And I'm going to go kind of quick for the sake of time.

00:08:43.179 --> 00:08:44.039
 But that's okay.

00:08:44.139 --> 00:08:46.419
 The point is not to get all the fine points down.

00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:48.360
 It's just to kind of get the highlights.

00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:53.620
 So one way to interpret Revelation is called the futurist interpretation.

00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:59.279
 And this model treats Revelation as referring to the future.

00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:10.360
 Where pretty much everything in there after the letters to the seven churches is about what's going to happen in the future shortly before, during, and after Jesus returns.

00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:13.659
 Sometimes this is very allegorical.

00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:14.279
 Sometimes not.

00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:19.700
 So sometimes the earth beast and the sea beast and the dragon represent something that's going to happen.

00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:24.159
 But sometimes people think there's actually going to be a dragon or a beast or something like that running around.

00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:27.079
 So that's one model.

00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:28.620
 And I'll chart these out in a little bit.

00:09:28.740 --> 00:09:29.799
 We'll go over them one more time.

00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:32.059
 But a second model is called the preterist model.

00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:34.579
 And this is kind of the opposite.

00:09:34.839 --> 00:09:37.559
 This is, no, Revelation does not refer to the future.

00:09:38.179 --> 00:09:40.079
 Instead, Revelation refers to the past.

00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:50.679
 Revelation talks about, it's an allegorical retelling of the events of the Jewish war in 68 to 70 AD when the Jewish temple was destroyed by the Romans.

00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:57.639
 And in this view, Revelation was prophecy, but it was written before this event.

00:09:57.739 --> 00:10:01.819
 So when John saw the visions, they were future visions.

00:10:02.099 --> 00:10:05.039
 But from our perspective, they refer to the past.

00:10:05.599 --> 00:10:12.759
 And Revelation should be read in light of the Jewish war in 68 through 70 AD where all sorts of horrific things happened.

00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:20.899
 And it was a kind of turning point in biblical and spiritual history because that's when the Jewish temple was destroyed.

00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:26.200
 And that's when Christianity, the Jewish people were scattered.

00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:30.639
 And when Christians started growing in great numbers.

00:10:31.819 --> 00:10:31.980
 Okay.

00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:39.200
 A third way to interpret Revelation is called the historicist interpretation.

00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:45.980
 And this one believes that Revelation allegorically retells the events of human history.

00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:56.280
 So it kind of views Revelation as encoding what's going to happen to humanity after the death of Jesus, but before he comes, he returns.

00:10:57.060 --> 00:11:02.780
 So if you read Revelation, you go through it, you can find important human events in there.

00:11:02.779 --> 00:11:04.779
 And everybody's got different views.

00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.220
 Every historicist has different views.

00:11:06.339 --> 00:11:11.980
 But things like the rise of the papacy or World War II or the Holocaust, all of that is embedded in Revelation.

00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:15.259
 And you can see it there as it's retelling us.

00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.579
 This view waxes in wings.

00:11:20.199 --> 00:11:25.139
 It's not the most popular view these days, but there have been times where it's been quite popular.

00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:32.460
 There's one final interpretive model, and this is the idealistic interpretation.

00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:39.759
 And this is the idea that Revelation is allegorical, but it doesn't actually refer to concrete historical events.

00:11:40.319 --> 00:11:47.279
 It's all allegory that's disconnected with historical happenings.

00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:59.720
 So in other words, when you see depictions of battles or monsters or things like that, these are representative of like the struggle of the soul or the struggle with sin or vice or things like that.

00:12:00.459 --> 00:12:09.899
 And in that sense, you shouldn't read Revelation according to this model by looking for specific fulfillments either in the past or in the future.

00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:16.819
 It's really an allegory about God's drama of saving us and redeeming us from our sins.

00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:20.139
 So these are the four different general models.

00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.959
 I should say that each of these are quite diverse within one another.

00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:29.339
 You'll get folks within each four of these camps that have very different views of how to interpret Revelation.

00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.860
 These are kind of the broad contours and outlines.

00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.299
 And if it helps, we can actually chart some of these out.

00:12:36.459 --> 00:12:43.720
 So for instance, if we take the futurist interpretation, this is a chart from the ESV study Bible.

00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.259
 And oh, I see some of you maybe have some of them.

00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:58.559
 That you'll see this is the text of Revelation chapters one through three, the letters chapters four through 19, all that stuff with the beasts and bulls and trumpets, the millennium and then the final judgment and the renewal of all things.

00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.679
 And so what the futurists say is, well, the letters refer to the first century churches that John wrote to.

00:13:04.199 --> 00:13:10.139
 And then we've got church history, which we're in this right now, the ancient church, the medieval church, the Reformation.

00:13:10.359 --> 00:13:10.939
 This is us.

00:13:10.940 --> 00:13:19.420
 Then chapter four through 19 talks about the end times right before Jesus or during Jesus's return.

00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:30.400
 And then futurists often, though not always, believe that this millennium is then a thousand year literal reign of Jesus that happens after the tribulation.

00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:37.120
 And then you have the final judgment and the renewal of all things.

00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.419
 So that's how many, not all, but many futurists would read Revelation.

00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:47.079
 For instance, some futurists take the millennium as referring to the church age.

00:13:47.179 --> 00:13:49.860
 I'll talk more about that later on.

00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:52.399
 Here's another millennial understanding.

00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:59.639
 This is called a dispensational understanding, which is a kind of subset of the futurists.

00:13:59.899 --> 00:14:04.199
 So this is pretty much the same letters refer to the first century.

00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:11.120
 You've got all the crazy stuff refers to the tribulation, but they stick a rapture in here.

00:14:11.319 --> 00:14:15.679
 So believers, Christians are taken up by Jesus before the tribulation.

00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:23.620
 And that's kind of the big hallmark of the dispensationalist view and how it differs from the futurist view.

00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:28.439
 Man, I'm getting overwhelmed by all that.

00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:38.159
 So the preterist view, as I mentioned, you've got the first century, but then all this stuff is just referring to the Jewish war with Rome.

00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:46.179
 And then you have the partial preterist view, which is a mix where you've got the Jerusalem's fall, the Jewish war with Rome.

00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.659
 But then this stuff refers to church history, things like that.

00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:55.740
 You've got the historicist, where all this stuff is just referring to what we would just call today.

00:14:56.079 --> 00:14:56.740
 Church history.

00:14:57.079 --> 00:15:01.219
 Everything that happened after Jesus was resurrected up until he returns.

00:15:01.319 --> 00:15:03.220
 This is including us today.

00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:12.460
 And then the idealist school, where everything can kind of just be wrapped up in whatever's happening in the past, future, or in your life right now.

00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:19.399
 It's all allegorically or applying to non-specific historical events.

00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:26.160
 Well, I don't know about you guys, but this is still pretty overwhelming.

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.040
 Most people don't find all this when you just glance at it.

00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:35.079
 While it's helpful, it's interesting to think about, it's still pretty complicated and it's hard to sort out.

00:15:35.459 --> 00:15:38.099
 So what I want to do now is switch gears.

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:45.679
 I want to talk about some helpful interpretive notes as you're reading the book of Revelation.

00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:51.959
 Things to think about while you just open up the text and experience it and read it.

00:15:51.959 --> 00:15:56.679
 Revelation says blessed is the one who reads and hears the words of this prophecy.

00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:03.319
 So as you're reading this, here's some helpful things to think about as you go.

00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:07.139
 And in this, we'll answer some of those questions that we asked at the beginning.

00:16:07.319 --> 00:16:09.639
 Like, how allegorical is Revelation?

00:16:10.239 --> 00:16:17.399
 Well, one thing to remember when you're reading Revelation is that Revelation itself invites allegorical approaches.

00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:19.739
 And here's what I mean by this.

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:25.219
 Revelation will specifically say that something it describes is not literal.

00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:27.500
 It will say this is referring to something else.

00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:28.399
 Here's an example.

00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:34.160
 The seven lampstands that John sees, Revelation says those aren't actually seven lampstands.

00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.879
 They symbolize seven angels.

00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.899
 Or the number 666 in Revelation 13, 18.

00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:46.620
 The text says, actually, this is a cipher.

00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:52.100
 It's a puzzle referring to some kind of name of the beast that it symbolizes.

00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:55.540
 Or there's the phrase, it's referring to Jerusalem.

00:16:55.700 --> 00:17:00.000
 But instead of the text saying Jerusalem, it says spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.

00:17:00.540 --> 00:17:02.680
 And it's not actually talking about Sodom and Egypt.

00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.720
 It's talking about another city.

00:17:06.259 --> 00:17:07.640
 Or the seven heads of the beast.

00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:10.599
 In Revelation 17, 9, the text is very clear.

00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:14.779
 Those seven heads represent seven hills on which a city sits.

00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:16.539
 Or here's another one.

00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:19.619
 Linen, the righteous saints are dressed in linen.

00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.480
 And Revelation says, actually, that linen represents the righteous deeds of the saints.

00:17:24.859 --> 00:17:26.460
 And then we got the really big one.

00:17:27.019 --> 00:17:31.639
 In Revelation chapter 1, verse 1, the very beginning,

00:17:32.879 --> 00:17:39.180
 John says that Revelation was signaled, giving through signs to John.

00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:44.100
 And that's an important interpretive note.

00:17:44.320 --> 00:17:47.900
 That Revelation claims this was given through signs.

00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.360
 And signs point to something else.

00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:53.420
 So when you ask yourself, how allegorical is Revelation?

00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:59.279
 Well, the answer is, it definitely is allegorical.

00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:02.759
 It doesn't answer if everything is allegorical.

00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:10.279
 And remember that just because something is allegorical doesn't mean it's not going to be historically fulfilled.

00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:16.700
 There could be many historical or future events that it's simply allegorically describing.

00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.960
 But what this means is as you're going, you can always be asking yourself,

00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.059
 okay, is this a sign for something else?

00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.259
 And what is it signing me to?

00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:28.779
 What is it pointing me to?

00:18:28.879 --> 00:18:31.799
 So think of that as you read through the book of Revelation.

00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.000
 Here's another helpful interpretive note.

00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:40.200
 Revelation's visions likely have multiple meanings or fulfillments.

00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:46.359
 In other words, there's probably more than one thing some of the visions are referring to.

00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.259
 Or at least there's a chance there is.

00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.440
 Now, what's the evidence for this?

00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.700
 Well, there's a few pieces of evidence for this.

00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:55.180
 One is not biblical.

00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:56.940
 It's not biblical evidence.

00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.359
 It's more just observational.

00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:02.359
 It's because, you know, there's lots of stuff in history.

00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:07.719
 Like if Revelation speaks about kind of a massive persecution of all of God's people,

00:19:08.379 --> 00:19:11.279
 that's actually happened more than once throughout history.

00:19:11.419 --> 00:19:17.519
 There's been massive persecutions under various emperors when all Christian people were ordered to do,

00:19:17.639 --> 00:19:19.559
 were to sacrifice to idols or things like that.

00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:20.339
 That's happened.

00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.179
 You know, the Jewish temple's been destroyed more than once in history.

00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:25.959
 The Jewish people have returned more than once in Jewish history.

00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:32.120
 So there's some kind of historical reasons for thinking that maybe when Revelation is speaking about visions,

00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:35.259
 there could be some multiple meanings or fulfillments behind it.

00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:37.880
 Maybe not all the visions, but maybe some of them.

00:19:38.019 --> 00:19:38.720
 Here's another reason.

00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:47.799
 If we subscribe to a futurist understanding where all these visions are going to occur in the future,

00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:54.680
 well, most futurists admit that these visions actually were partially fulfilled in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed.

00:19:55.180 --> 00:20:01.480
 So if you're a futurist, you kind of have the multiple fulfillments built in already.

00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:06.640
 On the other hand, if you're a preterist and you think that everything was fulfilled in 70 AD,

00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:14.559
 you still have other issues like other potential fulfillments throughout church history

00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:18.839
 where the Jewish people were apparently being regathered or the temple was going to be rebuilt.

00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:24.420
 That happened, for instance, in the 370s where this pagan emperor was trying to rebuild the Jewish temple

00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:27.039
 and people were all horrified about it, freaking out.

00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:36.200
 So within each view, there seems to be an invitation for multiple partial fulfillments or multiple fulfillments.

00:20:36.899 --> 00:20:38.159
 But here's the big one.

00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:46.980
 This is kind of just martial reasons, but the big reason for thinking there might be multiple meanings

00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:54.500
 is that Revelation itself is kind of a multiple fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.

00:20:54.500 --> 00:21:00.740
 Revelation takes Old Testament prophecies and repurposes them and reuses them throughout the entire text.

00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.500
 Let me show you an example of this.

00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:06.720
 So in the book of Daniel, Daniel sees all these visions.

00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.019
 He sees the visions of a statue made of many different metals.

00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:15.720
 He sees a series of four beasts, and then he sees another series, and these represent different empires,

00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:18.940
 and they all correspond with one another in a certain way.

00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:23.000
 So you've got the Babylonians and the Medo-Persians and the Greeks, etc.

00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:27.600
 Well, in Revelation, what we see is a new beast.

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:32.080
 This beast has seven heads, and it's made up of different creatures.

00:21:32.840 --> 00:21:41.360
 But it seems to be an amalgamation of these four beasts, which together, this one has four heads,

00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.579
 so together they have seven heads, and they're a lion and a bear and a leopard,

00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:51.679
 and we see that this beast is being reborn again in Revelation.

00:21:52.079 --> 00:22:01.719
 So in other words, Revelation suggests that these beasts in Daniel are going to have some kind of other fulfillment in the future.

00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:08.660
 And this happens all throughout Revelation, where the plagues in Exodus are given again,

00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:11.299
 where the day of the Lord is described again and again in the Old Testament.

00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.559
 It's described in Revelation again and again in different imagery.

00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:23.420
 So it's kind of a suggestion that maybe there are multiple ways of interpreting Revelation that are valid.

00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:33.519
 And what this means is that we don't necessarily have to settle on just one of these interpretations.

00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:41.320
 For instance, it could be that Revelation is referring to all of this in some sense.

00:22:42.080 --> 00:22:47.420
 So in other words, there's scholars and theologians who have thought that what Revelation is describing

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.740
 is kind of like a rising tide where waves are coming in and coming up on the beach,

00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:56.200
 and they go a little farther and they recede, and they go a little farther and they recede,

00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.460
 and you're seeing the same pattern happening again and again,

00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:04.400
 but the total fulfillment is not yet.

00:23:04.819 --> 00:23:05.799
 So you'll see this often.

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.200
 Futurists will talk about how you see this, especially in the futurist interpretation

00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.880
 and a little bit in the idealistic interpretation,

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:21.720
 where you have a belief that there is going to be a concrete future ultimate fulfillment of the visions of Revelation,

00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:28.319
 but there's a lot of stuff that's happened that is kind of partially fulfilling these visions as we go.

00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:31.720
 We can talk more about that in the Q&A if you're interested.

00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.039
 Okay, we talked about how Revelation invites allegorical approaches.

00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.480
 Revelation visions may or likely have multiple meanings or fulfillments.

00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:45.279
 Here's another reason for thinking that there may be multiple meanings or fulfillments,

00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.099
 and it's so important that I wanted to give it its own independent slot here.

00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:54.240
 That's that it appears that Revelation is cyclical.

00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:58.960
 In other words, it appears that Revelation isn't linear.

00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.940
 It's not written beginning to end following one narrative strand.

00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.960
 Instead, it loops back on itself and describes the same events again,

00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.720
 but in different ways as it's going through the text.

00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.819
 This is why when you're reading, you all of a sudden find yourself getting turned around or confused,

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.900
 because if you read it straight through from beginning to end,

00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:23.079
 you'll see that it's quite hard to follow,

00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:25.259
 but if you read it as a series of visions,

00:24:25.620 --> 00:24:29.059
 some of which pertain to the same subject matter that's already been discussed,

00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:31.519
 it helps make a little more sense.

00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:34.559
 This is how this chart tries to explain this,

00:24:34.620 --> 00:24:39.100
 where it tries to show that some of these visions actually parallel one another

00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:41.299
 and are talking about the same themes,

00:24:41.679 --> 00:24:44.939
 but with different tenor and emphasis throughout.

00:24:45.819 --> 00:24:51.179
 The big parallel, the one that's the most clear,

00:24:51.339 --> 00:24:54.679
 is the parallel between the seven trumpets and the seven bulls.

00:24:54.679 --> 00:24:56.480
 Seven trumpets are in chapter 8 through 11.

00:24:56.919 --> 00:24:58.359
 Seven bulls are 15 through 16.

00:24:58.879 --> 00:25:00.240
 And if we line them up in order,

00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:02.539
 we notice something really interesting.

00:25:02.699 --> 00:25:06.579
 So the first trumpet talks about hail and fire and blood cast to the earth.

00:25:06.579 --> 00:25:10.139
 The first bull is poured out on the earth.

00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:13.779
 The second trumpet, a mountain of fire is cast into the sea.

00:25:14.199 --> 00:25:17.519
 The bull is poured out on the sea and it becomes blood,

00:25:17.699 --> 00:25:20.259
 whereas the mountain of fire turns the sea to blood.

00:25:20.259 --> 00:25:23.259
 So the sea has become blood twice.

00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:29.839
 Three, there's a burning star that falls on the rivers and wells of water,

00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:34.579
 and then the bull is poured out on the rivers and wells of water.

00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:37.699
 A third of the sun and moon and stars are darkened.

00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:40.759
 This is poured out on the sun.

00:25:42.159 --> 00:25:44.359
 We have this locust plague.

00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:45.779
 The sun is darkened.

00:25:46.159 --> 00:25:48.220
 The kingdom of the beast is darkened.

00:25:49.159 --> 00:25:53.079
 Lucy and the angels have the river Euphrates with a huge army,

00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:55.139
 is the sixth trumpet.

00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:59.620
 And the sixth bull is the great river Euphrates was made bitter,

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.120
 and a way for the kings of the east was opened.

00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.420
 And then finally the seventh says,

00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:08.300
 the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.820
 It seems like that's the end.

00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:11.840
 That's it.

00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:14.540
 Jesus has come back, but we're only in chapter 11.

00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:20.859
 And then in the seventh bull, it says, it is done.

00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:24.420
 There's a final judgment upon Babylon with great hailstones.

00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:26.000
 And now we're in Revelation 16.

00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:29.819
 And if you know Revelation, it's still not over yet.

00:26:29.899 --> 00:26:34.299
 There's a lot more to come, but yet it seems like it's ended twice already.

00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:40.180
 And so that is this idea that perhaps Revelation is better viewed,

00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.619
 instead of as one continuous vision,

00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:47.299
 it's better viewed as a series of visions that John sees.

00:26:47.899 --> 00:26:52.759
 And that makes Revelation more understandable,

00:26:52.899 --> 00:26:54.799
 makes it more intelligible as you go.

00:26:55.899 --> 00:26:57.599
 So these are helpful interpretive notes.

00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.159
 One is Revelation invites allegorical approaches.

00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:02.119
 One is maybe the visions have multiple meanings.

00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:03.879
 Another is Revelation is cyclical.

00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:05.600
 This pertains to this, by the way,

00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.400
 because if Revelation is cyclical,

00:27:08.520 --> 00:27:12.120
 then that means that you have multiple visions of similar events

00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:15.160
 and all things like that.

00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:19.160
 Here's a fourth thing to keep in mind as you're reading Revelation.

00:27:21.060 --> 00:27:25.500
 When you read Revelation, you should also read it with Paul and with Jesus.

00:27:25.840 --> 00:27:27.060
 They talk about the end times.

00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:28.160
 Both of them do.

00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:30.440
 In 1 and 2 Thessalonians,

00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.660
 and Jesus talks about the end times in his famous Olivet Discourse,

00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.860
 but he also does a few places elsewhere.

00:27:38.299 --> 00:27:42.680
 But I'm thinking specifically Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, and 21.

00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.059
 And when you take what Paul says,

00:27:46.299 --> 00:27:47.559
 and take what Jesus says,

00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.100
 and take what Revelation says,

00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.740
 you notice some themes keep coming up.

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.660
 And I just wanted to chart some of these out.

00:27:55.660 --> 00:28:00.759
 One is that they all talk about many deceivers and wars coming.

00:28:01.099 --> 00:28:04.000
 They all talk about apostasy happening.

00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:06.720
 And many of them, not all of them,

00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.859
 but many of them mention this abomination of desolation,

00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.220
 false Christs, false signs,

00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:15.920
 heavenly signs is a big one.

00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.019
 They all mention a last trumpet.

00:28:20.360 --> 00:28:22.740
 They talk about the gathering of the elect,

00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.740
 the coming of the Son of Man.

00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:28.180
 A fig tree comes up more than once.

00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:29.039
 It comes up in Jesus.

00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:30.840
 It comes up in Revelation as well.

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:33.940
 How no one knows the hour,

00:28:34.080 --> 00:28:35.320
 how there's a mystery here,

00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:37.720
 that even though there are these signs,

00:28:37.860 --> 00:28:40.740
 there's still going to be a mystery

00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:44.259
 that won't be revealed until the moment Jesus comes back.

00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:46.339
 How the gospel will be preached to the world.

00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:47.319
 Jesus says that.

00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:48.420
 Revelation says that.

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:50.220
 It talks about this eagle going forth

00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:51.660
 to preach the gospel to the whole world.

00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:55.640
 Earthquakes, famines, wars are all described,

00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:57.180
 but Jesus is very clear.

00:28:57.259 --> 00:28:58.180
 The end is not yet.

00:28:58.299 --> 00:28:59.379
 All these things are going to come,

00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:00.879
 but the end is not yet.

00:29:01.420 --> 00:29:06.079
 And then Jesus' return will be like lightning.

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.420
 In other words, it'll be really obvious.

00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.779
 That you won't really need someone to tell you,

00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:13.519
 I think Jesus is way over there.

00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:14.339
 Let's go find him.

00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:18.500
 You'll become naturally aware of it,

00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:21.740
 just like when lightning flashes across the heavens.

00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:25.559
 So these can provide kind of anchor points

00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.799
 for thinking about Revelation.

00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:28.519
 A lot of people haven't realized

00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.920
 that Revelation, Paul, and Jesus

00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.339
 do cover a lot of the same material

00:29:34.339 --> 00:29:36.460
 and talk about things.

00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.740
 They talk about the same things,

00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:39.799
 but in different ways.

00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:40.740
 Paul's writing a letter.

00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:42.139
 Jesus is preaching his sermon.

00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:43.880
 Revelation is a series of visions,

00:29:44.259 --> 00:29:45.440
 but all three of them,

00:29:45.560 --> 00:29:47.580
 even though they're giving very different formats

00:29:47.580 --> 00:29:48.280
 for their teaching,

00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.800
 they all correspond and complement one another.

00:29:53.560 --> 00:29:53.880
 Okay.

00:29:55.540 --> 00:29:56.080
 All right.

00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:57.340
 We talked about allegory,

00:29:57.720 --> 00:29:58.800
 Revelation being cyclical,

00:29:59.259 --> 00:30:01.620
 reading Revelation with Paul and Jesus.

00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:06.000
 Let's get into some specifics,

00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:08.039
 and then we'll open it up for questions.

00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:09.039
 So first of all,

00:30:09.139 --> 00:30:11.979
 what about the millennium in Revelation?

00:30:12.479 --> 00:30:14.399
 Just to recap,

00:30:14.719 --> 00:30:16.219
 in Revelation chapter 20,

00:30:17.019 --> 00:30:20.339
 Jesus reigns for a thousand years on earth,

00:30:20.739 --> 00:30:22.099
 and the saints are raised.

00:30:22.099 --> 00:30:27.480
 And there's controversy in Christian eschatological circles

00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.599
 about what this refers to.

00:30:29.679 --> 00:30:31.679
 Does this refer to a literal millennium reign

00:30:31.679 --> 00:30:32.919
 where Jesus will reign on the earth

00:30:32.919 --> 00:30:34.259
 for a thousand years physically,

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.339
 and then at the end of the millennium,

00:30:37.899 --> 00:30:40.819
 Revelation describes Satan being released again

00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:42.699
 after he's apparently been defeated,

00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:44.799
 and this whole battle happening again?

00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:50.059
 Or is the millennium an allegorical description

00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:51.819
 of, let's say, the church age?

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.940
 Well, some of the things we observed

00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:56.519
 help us maybe to interpret this.

00:30:56.879 --> 00:31:00.220
 Remember, Revelation does invite allegory,

00:31:00.339 --> 00:31:00.859
 specifically.

00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:04.839
 Numbers are also allegorical often in Revelation.

00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:10.079
 The number 666 is said to represent something else,

00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:13.500
 and the number 7 comes up quite a lot in Revelation

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:15.539
 as if it's symbolic of something.

00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.240
 So some people take the thousand years

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.319
 as referring to just a long period of time

00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:27.619
 and the resurrection of the saints

00:31:27.619 --> 00:31:29.220
 as not a physical resurrection,

00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.559
 but a spiritual resurrection,

00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.339
 just like how Paul talks about

00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:33.960
 you are reigning with Christ already in heaven.

00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:34.900
 You are already reigning.

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:36.200
 You're already ruling with Christ.

00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:37.640
 Paul says this in Ephesians.

00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:40.740
 And so you could also then add the idea

00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:41.960
 of Revelation being cyclical

00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.259
 to be like the millennium is just another vision.

00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.120
 It's another one of the many visions of Revelation

00:31:47.120 --> 00:31:49.259
 that is giving a different perspective

00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:52.460
 on what's happening throughout the church.

00:31:52.600 --> 00:31:54.700
 And in other words, the millennium is not literal.

00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.779
 It's simply an allegorical description

00:31:57.779 --> 00:31:58.640
 of the church age.

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:00.000
 When Satan is bound,

00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:01.940
 when Christians reign with Christ,

00:32:02.019 --> 00:32:03.100
 are raised with him,

00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:04.700
 but then there will be this period

00:32:04.700 --> 00:32:05.860
 when Satan is released,

00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:08.240
 and that will refer to the end times

00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:09.700
 when the tribulation happens and all that.

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:11.299
 So that's one way of taking it.

00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:13.799
 I tend in that direction,

00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.039
 but we're not dogmatic about that.

00:32:16.120 --> 00:32:19.279
 You're free to believe whichever flavor you like.

00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:20.860
 But that's one way to think about it.

00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:22.580
 Another one is the rapture.

00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:24.900
 The rapture is,

00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:27.000
 it depends on how you want to define it.

00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:28.299
 Everybody has a different definition of it.

00:32:28.600 --> 00:32:31.180
 But it's the idea broadly

00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:33.640
 that Jesus will come

00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.279
 and will take up believers

00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:37.379
 and rescue them.

00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:39.220
 In that broad sense,

00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:41.740
 the rapture is all over Revelation.

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.000
 Jesus is coming back.

00:32:43.099 --> 00:32:45.019
 He is coming to rescue his saints

00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:46.220
 and to raise them up.

00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:48.599
 Paul talks about how at the last trumpet,

00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:50.319
 those who are dead will rise

00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:51.180
 and then we'll be caught up

00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:52.039
 with Christ in the clouds.

00:32:52.139 --> 00:32:53.220
 That's very clear in scripture.

00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:55.399
 The debate though is,

00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:57.180
 when is this going to happen?

00:32:57.399 --> 00:32:58.259
 Is it going to happen

00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:02.819
 before a terrible tribulation

00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:03.859
 that's unlike suffering

00:33:03.859 --> 00:33:04.920
 anyone has ever experienced

00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:05.600
 in the whole world,

00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:06.500
 which some people believe?

00:33:06.820 --> 00:33:08.860
 Or is it going to happen during that?

00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:11.759
 Or is it going to happen after that?

00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:15.500
 And Revelation is clear

00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:16.960
 and scripture is clear

00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.539
 that regardless of what we think about

00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:20.940
 when the rapture is going to occur,

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:24.759
 Christians are never promised

00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:26.039
 to escape from suffering.

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.380
 Jesus kind of promises the opposite,

00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:29.080
 actually,

00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:30.519
 that you will suffer

00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:31.580
 by following Christ.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.420
 You must take up your cross.

00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:34.920
 The cross, of course,

00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:36.440
 represents suffering and death.

00:33:36.800 --> 00:33:37.860
 You must take it up.

00:33:39.019 --> 00:33:40.759
 Also, in Revelation,

00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:43.000
 there are some passages

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.200
 that seem to suggest

00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.120
 that Christians will suffer

00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:47.700
 some of the things described

00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:48.860
 in Revelation.

00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:51.320
 There is also a passage

00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:52.080
 that talks about,

00:33:52.180 --> 00:33:52.720
 very specifically,

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:53.960
 that there will be,

00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:56.180
 Christians will be spared

00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:58.940
 from some of the woes

00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:00.000
 that are coming on the earth.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.380
 So these are all things

00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:01.940
 to think about

00:34:01.940 --> 00:34:06.980
 when you are trying to discern

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:07.940
 the rapture

00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:08.940
 and when it's going to occur.

00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:12.659
 With both of these things

00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:15.079
 and with kind of everything else,

00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.280
 those four interpretive models,

00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.780
 I think the number one exhortation

00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:20.940
 should be one of humility

00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:23.139
 where we don't actually have certainty

00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:23.880
 about these things.

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.099
 And that's kind of the point.

00:34:25.099 --> 00:34:28.759
 We're called to be watchful

00:34:28.759 --> 00:34:30.880
 and to wait for Jesus to come.

00:34:31.460 --> 00:34:32.400
 And there's some things

00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.860
 that won't be revealed

00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:35.420
 until he comes,

00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:37.039
 but we know enough

00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.480
 that they'll help us discern

00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:40.839
 all of that as it's happening.

00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:42.420
 Okay, finally,

00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:43.739
 what's the purpose of Revelation?

00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:46.619
 Most people will say,

00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:47.480
 well, the purpose of Revelation

00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:48.519
 is to tell us about

00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:49.920
 when Jesus comes back

00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:50.759
 and all the signs

00:34:50.759 --> 00:34:52.000
 that are going to happen

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:53.179
 before he comes back.

00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:55.279
 Yes, that is part

00:34:55.279 --> 00:34:56.440
 of the purpose of Revelation,

00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.699
 but there's a lot of others as well.

00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.419
 For instance,

00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:00.899
 Revelation is a warning

00:35:00.899 --> 00:35:02.659
 about God's coming judgment,

00:35:03.099 --> 00:35:04.759
 how he's going to judge sin.

00:35:05.899 --> 00:35:07.639
 It's also a warning

00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:08.539
 to be watchful,

00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:09.559
 to be prepared

00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:11.879
 about for the coming of Jesus,

00:35:12.419 --> 00:35:14.899
 to always keep watch,

00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:16.399
 knowing that he could come

00:35:16.399 --> 00:35:17.399
 when you least expect it.

00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:19.279
 In fact, Scripture says that,

00:35:19.539 --> 00:35:20.299
 that when people

00:35:20.299 --> 00:35:21.419
 aren't looking for it,

00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:22.919
 that's when he's going to come.

00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:25.559
 Revelation also, though,

00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:27.779
 is exhorting us

00:35:27.779 --> 00:35:28.719
 to be hopeful.

00:35:29.879 --> 00:35:31.219
 There's an interesting phenomenon.

00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:32.119
 In my dissertation,

00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:33.739
 I tracked the reception

00:35:33.739 --> 00:35:34.359
 of Revelation

00:35:34.359 --> 00:35:34.859
 in the ancient

00:35:34.859 --> 00:35:35.659
 and medieval church.

00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.019
 And the ancient

00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:38.819
 and medieval church

00:35:38.819 --> 00:35:40.179
 was kind of like today,

00:35:40.319 --> 00:35:41.539
 where there was a lot of people

00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:42.419
 that loved Revelation,

00:35:42.759 --> 00:35:43.299
 a lot of people,

00:35:43.379 --> 00:35:44.079
 it was polarizing.

00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:44.699
 There was a lot of people

00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:45.579
 that really loved the book,

00:35:45.739 --> 00:35:46.619
 and there was a lot of people

00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:47.719
 that were confused by it

00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:48.679
 and didn't use it that much.

00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:50.139
 And one thing

00:35:50.139 --> 00:35:50.839
 that was interesting

00:35:50.839 --> 00:35:52.119
 is that the more

00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.440
 a particular church

00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:55.619
 was suffering,

00:35:56.259 --> 00:35:57.899
 the more they liked Revelation.

00:35:58.119 --> 00:35:59.359
 The more they found

00:35:59.359 --> 00:36:02.279
 that God's coming judgment,

00:36:02.899 --> 00:36:03.940
 that his vindication,

00:36:04.099 --> 00:36:04.779
 that his promise

00:36:04.779 --> 00:36:05.980
 of wiping every tear away,

00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:07.239
 the more they found that

00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:09.139
 comforting to them.

00:36:09.139 --> 00:36:12.019
 And the more they looked

00:36:12.019 --> 00:36:13.779
 to Revelation for consolation

00:36:13.779 --> 00:36:15.719
 and to prepare for

00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:17.679
 the return of Christ.

00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:19.239
 And on the contrary,

00:36:19.779 --> 00:36:22.319
 the more a church was rich

00:36:22.319 --> 00:36:23.480
 and established,

00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:25.879
 the less they kind of liked Revelation.

00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:28.819
 They were kind of confused by it

00:36:28.819 --> 00:36:29.940
 and maybe even threatened

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:30.980
 by it a little bit.

00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:32.400
 And then, of course,

00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:35.019
 Revelation also talks about

00:36:35.019 --> 00:36:36.839
 signs of the return of Christ.

00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.440
 And I will say, though,

00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:42.180
 that depending on which view

00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:43.559
 you subscribe to,

00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:45.420
 these signs will either be

00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:46.400
 very, very numerous

00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:47.660
 and very explicit

00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:48.700
 and detailed,

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:50.160
 or they will be

00:36:50.160 --> 00:36:52.500
 more of a general character

00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:55.740
 that are a bit vaguer,

00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:57.519
 depending on which kind of school

00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:58.640
 you subscribe to.

00:36:59.700 --> 00:37:01.420
 Okay, that's a lot.

00:37:01.660 --> 00:37:03.780
 But we do have time for questions.

00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.720
 So if people want to fire away,

00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:07.159
 we'll close probably

00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:08.059
 about 15 minutes.

00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:09.879
 And then if you want to

00:37:09.879 --> 00:37:10.419
 stick around and talk,

00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:11.019
 we can talk too,

00:37:11.059 --> 00:37:12.699
 or we can talk after the service also.

00:37:14.019 --> 00:37:15.480
 Tom, can I just ask a clarifying question?

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:15.959
 Yes, yes.

00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:17.099
 I think an important point

00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:18.719
 about the symbolic

00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.659
 or allegorical reading

00:37:19.659 --> 00:37:21.480
 from Revelation 1.1.

00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:22.399
 Can you just explain

00:37:22.399 --> 00:37:22.799
 a little more,

00:37:22.839 --> 00:37:24.239
 because the ESV doesn't say

00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.819
 the signal.

00:37:25.219 --> 00:37:26.139
 Can you just say a little bit

00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:28.739
 about how you got there

00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:30.480
 from Revelation 1.1?

00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.500
 Yeah, so the ESV says

00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:34.159
 the revelation of Jesus Christ,

00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:35.539
 which God gave him

00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:37.320
 to show to his servants

00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.599
 the things that must soon take place.

00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:40.320
 The original Greek,

00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:41.679
 I think, is semeo,

00:37:41.900 --> 00:37:44.340
 which means to signal.

00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:46.920
 And so a literal translation

00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:47.440
 would be

00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.019
 the revelation of Jesus Christ,

00:37:49.099 --> 00:37:50.240
 which God gave him

00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:52.139
 to signal to his servants

00:37:52.139 --> 00:37:54.780
 the things that must soon take place.

00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:55.800
 It's the same,

00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:57.599
 it's the verb form of sign,

00:37:57.800 --> 00:37:58.980
 to sign to someone

00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:00.400
 what must take place.

00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:02.519
 So it doesn't inherently,

00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:04.460
 I mean, you can interpret that

00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:06.380
 as more vague as just show,

00:38:07.059 --> 00:38:08.820
 but there is this idea

00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:11.039
 of it's a sign or a symbol

00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.880
 that's pointing to something else

00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:14.380
 so that when there is

00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:15.699
 this dragon running around,

00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.039
 it helps with the idea

00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:21.280
 that the dragon is pointing

00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.059
 to something else.

00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:23.860
 It's not actually there.

00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.219
 You can take it the other way.

00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:26.380
 I mean, you don't have

00:38:26.380 --> 00:38:27.559
 to take it that way, but...

00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:28.579
 Yeah, no, that's really helpful

00:38:28.579 --> 00:38:29.619
 because I was, you know,

00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:30.639
 if we all went and looked

00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:31.440
 at Revelation 1-1,

00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:31.920
 we'd be like,

00:38:32.019 --> 00:38:33.179
 that's not what it says.

00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:34.219
 Come on, Tom.

00:38:34.299 --> 00:38:35.059
 But it is what it says.

00:38:35.139 --> 00:38:36.759
 It does say that he signaled

00:38:36.759 --> 00:38:38.019
 that or he signed it to John.

00:38:38.279 --> 00:38:39.119
 Yeah, thanks, thanks.

00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:40.079
 That's a good clarification.

00:38:40.699 --> 00:38:41.199
 Thanks, yeah.

00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:43.880
 Other thoughts?

00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.559
 I'm going to get cooler pictures up here.

00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:52.099
 Well, a lot of people

00:38:52.099 --> 00:38:53.840
 might be familiar with them,

00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:55.460
 how Lindsay and all of that,

00:38:55.460 --> 00:38:57.039
 so which of those views

00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:58.199
 was that?

00:38:58.619 --> 00:38:59.420
 Or the combination of those?

00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:01.139
 Okay, so someone jump in

00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:01.480
 if I'm wrong.

00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:03.440
 Hal Lindsay's futurist, right?

00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:05.420
 And I think he's dispensationalist also.

00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:05.900
 Yeah, that's correct.

00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:07.740
 So he thinks that

00:39:07.740 --> 00:39:08.559
 this is all referring

00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:09.260
 to the future,

00:39:09.860 --> 00:39:12.780
 but it's a specific kind of future

00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:14.500
 where...

00:39:14.500 --> 00:39:16.900
 It's a specific kind of futurist

00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:18.460
 where there is going to be

00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:20.000
 a rapture of believers,

00:39:20.139 --> 00:39:20.940
 but that's going to happen

00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:23.019
 before the tribulation.

00:39:23.500 --> 00:39:26.039
 So before all the terrible stuff,

00:39:26.179 --> 00:39:28.260
 all the believers are taken up,

00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.700
 and then he also, I think,

00:39:31.220 --> 00:39:33.200
 believes in a literal millennial reign.

00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:35.000
 So you could be a futurist

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.740
 and believe that the millennial reign

00:39:36.740 --> 00:39:38.440
 actually is just referring

00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:39.480
 to the church age,

00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:42.179
 and that the rapture does happen,

00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:44.000
 but it's after the tribulation.

00:39:44.220 --> 00:39:45.940
 It's after all that suffering,

00:39:45.940 --> 00:39:47.240
 Jesus comes,

00:39:47.380 --> 00:39:49.440
 and that's when he takes up Christians.

00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:52.119
 What's the history of that view?

00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:54.619
 Like, where is that located in...

00:39:54.619 --> 00:39:57.039
 It's called the pre-tribulation

00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:57.900
 rapture theory.

00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.019
 That's a recent view.

00:40:00.579 --> 00:40:01.980
 It's very hard to find it.

00:40:02.200 --> 00:40:03.000
 I can't find it

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:04.880
 in any ancient Christian writings.

00:40:05.300 --> 00:40:05.940
 Like when you...

00:40:06.619 --> 00:40:08.619
 Century or 19th?

00:40:08.860 --> 00:40:10.220
 I think it's 19th.

00:40:10.539 --> 00:40:11.059
 19th.

00:40:11.059 --> 00:40:11.880
 Or 20th.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.320
 19th.

00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:13.340
 John Nelson Darby.

00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:13.700
 Yeah.

00:40:14.500 --> 00:40:16.780
 So it's a more recent view.

00:40:17.240 --> 00:40:18.340
 The other views,

00:40:18.600 --> 00:40:20.120
 if you look at these other models,

00:40:20.780 --> 00:40:23.600
 the futurist and the preterist

00:40:23.600 --> 00:40:24.480
 and the idealistic,

00:40:24.620 --> 00:40:26.140
 you find all throughout church history.

00:40:26.460 --> 00:40:28.300
 So you'll find ancient

00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:31.340
 and medieval and modern scholars

00:40:31.900 --> 00:40:32.760
 and theologians

00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.780
 that take these views,

00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:36.340
 and they often mix them together

00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:37.220
 in various ways.

00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:38.980
 However,

00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:42.079
 the pre-tribulation version of this,

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.579
 the pre-tribulation rapture version of this

00:40:45.579 --> 00:40:47.360
 is a modern phenomenon.

00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:49.480
 This is also more modern.

00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:51.039
 And if you think about it,

00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:52.579
 it kind of has to be modern

00:40:52.579 --> 00:40:55.699
 because you need the events to happen

00:40:55.699 --> 00:40:56.880
 before you can say,

00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:58.340
 oh, that's talking about revelation.

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:00.340
 So, you know,

00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:01.679
 the rise of the papacy

00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:02.699
 or the Holocaust,

00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:04.019
 it's going to take a while

00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:05.460
 before you work that in.

00:41:05.759 --> 00:41:07.159
 This view also tends to be

00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:08.960
 very Western European-centric.

00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:10.820
 And so you'll find

00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:11.860
 a deep emphasis

00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:13.199
 on the papacy in Rome,

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:14.360
 which is fine,

00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:15.500
 but you have to remember

00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:16.820
 that there were lots of Christians

00:41:16.820 --> 00:41:17.579
 in Eastern Europe

00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.240
 and North Africa

00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:18.880
 and the Middle East

00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:19.420
 and Asia

00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:21.639
 that are kind of just ignored,

00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:22.539
 like they're not really

00:41:22.539 --> 00:41:23.460
 part of the church.

00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:25.320
 Ivor, sorry.

00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:26.519
 I'm going to ask you

00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.260
 I saw a new heaven

00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:30.100
 and a new earth

00:41:30.100 --> 00:41:32.320
 and the first heaven

00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:33.180
 and the first earth

00:41:33.180 --> 00:41:34.200
 that passed away

00:41:34.200 --> 00:41:36.220
 and was no longer any sea.

00:41:37.160 --> 00:41:38.660
 And it looks to me

00:41:38.660 --> 00:41:39.400
 like they're talking

00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:40.380
 about a new planet.

00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:42.220
 Yes, yes, yes.

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:43.120
 Yes.

00:41:43.240 --> 00:41:43.960
 And I've been told

00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:44.740
 that's no,

00:41:45.100 --> 00:41:46.559
 but nobody tells me why.

00:41:46.720 --> 00:41:47.500
 Why it's no.

00:41:47.640 --> 00:41:47.860
 Okay.

00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:49.300
 That's a great question, Ivor.

00:41:49.660 --> 00:41:49.960
 Yeah.

00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:50.699
 So that is,

00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:51.619
 you are putting your finger

00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:53.039
 on a little bit of a debate

00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:54.740
 in theological circles

00:41:54.740 --> 00:41:56.179
 about is God going

00:41:56.179 --> 00:41:57.619
 to renew his creation

00:41:57.619 --> 00:41:59.220
 or is he going to destroy it

00:41:59.220 --> 00:42:00.240
 and make a new one?

00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:02.460
 And that particular passage

00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.679
 does seem to feel like

00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:05.880
 it's just going to be

00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.920
 a brand new one

00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:07.960
 and it's not renewed.

00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:10.420
 There's other passages

00:42:10.420 --> 00:42:11.440
 that suggest differently.

00:42:12.380 --> 00:42:14.220
 I guess if you were going to say,

00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:14.840
 no, no, no,

00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:17.619
 that's not a total new planet,

00:42:17.720 --> 00:42:18.699
 it's going to be a renewed planet,

00:42:18.699 --> 00:42:20.719
 you would go to the fact

00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:23.439
 that Revelation is very dramatic.

00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:25.699
 It's dramatizing these allegories

00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:26.739
 and that the sea

00:42:26.739 --> 00:42:29.259
 in Old Testament thought

00:42:29.259 --> 00:42:30.399
 that Revelation picks up on,

00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:32.599
 the sea is often this area

00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:34.599
 of chaos and darkness.

00:42:34.839 --> 00:42:35.619
 And so when it says

00:42:35.619 --> 00:42:36.500
 there's no sea,

00:42:36.939 --> 00:42:37.579
 it's not saying

00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:38.000
 there's not going to be

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:38.859
 an ocean or water.

00:42:39.139 --> 00:42:39.919
 It's just saying

00:42:39.919 --> 00:42:40.859
 there's not going to be

00:42:40.859 --> 00:42:42.500
 this chaotic darkness

00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:44.699
 that is always inhabiting our world.

00:42:44.859 --> 00:42:44.980
 Okay.

00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:46.539
 Kind of like how we would,

00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:48.079
 a better translation would be

00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:48.719
 like the depths

00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:49.880
 or the abyss or something,

00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:50.519
 which for us,

00:42:50.860 --> 00:42:51.659
 you could use the abyss

00:42:51.659 --> 00:42:52.759
 for the depths of the ocean,

00:42:52.759 --> 00:42:54.000
 but it also means something else.

00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:55.000
 Okay.

00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:56.480
 I just have a follow-up.

00:42:56.619 --> 00:42:56.759
 Yeah.

00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:58.619
 It says there'll be a new planet.

00:42:59.179 --> 00:42:59.340
 Yep.

00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:02.079
 That would mean a new galaxy, right?

00:43:03.759 --> 00:43:04.119
 Maybe.

00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:04.860
 We'll see.

00:43:05.619 --> 00:43:06.480
 We'll find out.

00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:08.920
 I don't have strong feelings

00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:09.860
 one way or the other.

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:10.159
 I mean,

00:43:10.299 --> 00:43:11.099
 we could get there

00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:11.880
 and Jesus could be like,

00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:12.639
 yeah, I renewed it.

00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:13.059
 It's new.

00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:13.880
 Or he could be like,

00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.619
 no, it's brand new.

00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:15.259
 I mean, I don't,

00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:15.900
 we'll find out.

00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:16.599
 Okay.

00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:17.239
 I don't.

00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:18.099
 All right.

00:43:18.219 --> 00:43:19.139
 So there's no way.

00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:19.359
 Someone,

00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:20.179
 if someone feels,

00:43:20.299 --> 00:43:20.779
 if you feel,

00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:21.219
 yeah, I don't,

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:21.579
 Matt.

00:43:22.420 --> 00:43:23.460
 So it occurs to me

00:43:23.460 --> 00:43:24.759
 that in this,

00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:26.940
 you've used the term allegory

00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:28.219
 and the true literature

00:43:28.219 --> 00:43:29.619
 people among us

00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:30.839
 might be a little struggling.

00:43:31.319 --> 00:43:31.440
 Okay.

00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:33.199
 Because allegory has like clear,

00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:34.000
 here's a person,

00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:35.400
 they correspond to one thing.

00:43:35.759 --> 00:43:36.000
 Okay.

00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.099
 And so I think you're using allegory

00:43:39.099 --> 00:43:40.599
 a little bit more broadly than that.

00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:41.079
 That's great.

00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:41.319
 Yes.

00:43:41.319 --> 00:43:41.920
 And maybe symbolic.

00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:42.920
 Okay, symbolic.

00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:44.820
 Where you're using images

00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:47.539
 to point towards truths,

00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:51.139
 but the images aren't always specific.

00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:52.360
 And we see in Revelation

00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:53.240
 that these images

00:43:53.240 --> 00:43:54.200
 are actually malleable.

00:43:54.380 --> 00:43:55.900
 And so in chapter one,

00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:56.800
 it might be this.

00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:57.700
 In chapter seven,

00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.740
 it might be that.

00:43:59.139 --> 00:44:01.400
 The image of seven eyes

00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:03.320
 doesn't always mean the same thing,

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:04.700
 but it might.

00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:05.760
 Okay.

00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:07.320
 And so I agree

00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:09.099
 for your question about the seas,

00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:10.159
 the question is,

00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:12.339
 is this literally a picture

00:44:12.339 --> 00:44:15.839
 of a recreated physical reality?

00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:17.779
 Like going back to Genesis one

00:44:17.779 --> 00:44:18.920
 and starting over,

00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:19.940
 God said,

00:44:20.139 --> 00:44:21.379
 let there be a new heavens

00:44:21.379 --> 00:44:22.259
 and a new earth

00:44:22.259 --> 00:44:24.779
 in a physical way.

00:44:24.819 --> 00:44:27.480
 Or is it a symbol of a renewal

00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.799
 that God is doing of the earth

00:44:29.799 --> 00:44:31.099
 that he's already created?

00:44:31.099 --> 00:44:33.219
 And it could be either.

00:44:33.219 --> 00:44:37.539
 So that's where it's not a clear yes or no.

00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:37.980
 Right.

00:44:38.139 --> 00:44:39.500
 But I think that's,

00:44:39.860 --> 00:44:42.920
 and part of the dispensational pre-millennial,

00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:44.519
 I grew up in some of this

00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:45.739
 when I first came to Christ.

00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:47.900
 It was part of the world that I lived in.

00:44:48.319 --> 00:44:49.819
 And part of what they tend to say,

00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:51.420
 but you've got to take this literally.

00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:53.519
 And part of what I would say is,

00:44:53.619 --> 00:44:55.259
 we are taking it literally

00:44:55.259 --> 00:44:56.779
 in the sense of,

00:44:57.079 --> 00:44:58.539
 this is what the author intended

00:44:58.539 --> 00:45:00.559
 to communicate through a particular way.

00:45:00.820 --> 00:45:01.219
 Very good.

00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:01.420
 Right?

00:45:01.699 --> 00:45:04.239
 So it's not a heavens and earth.

00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:06.900
 It's not a real beast with seven heads.

00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.300
 Because they're using that as imagery,

00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:12.059
 not as there was a literal beast

00:45:12.059 --> 00:45:13.259
 that came out of the sea.

00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.420
 And so this is where

00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:18.659
 it's just a different language

00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:19.719
 than we're used to reading

00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:21.639
 in the Bible of all places.

00:45:21.980 --> 00:45:23.039
 But then you start looking

00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:23.539
 and you think,

00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:25.159
 well, Daniel writes this way

00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:26.820
 and Zechariah writes this way

00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:28.840
 and Ezekiel writes this way

00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:30.220
 and Isaiah has visions.

00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:32.760
 And then you get,

00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:35.200
 even when Jesus talks about the future,

00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.100
 which I think our futurist positions

00:45:38.100 --> 00:45:40.000
 from a Jesus standpoint,

00:45:40.539 --> 00:45:42.980
 he's also pulling on all this imagery.

00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:44.940
 So I think we just need to be

00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.400
 more comfortable with imagery

00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.240
 and how it communicates truth.

00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:52.600
 Thank you, Matt.

00:45:52.780 --> 00:45:54.340
 And just to clarify,

00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:54.840
 whenever,

00:45:55.240 --> 00:45:56.300
 and I think it's a good rule of thumb,

00:45:56.300 --> 00:45:57.580
 whenever someone talks about allegory,

00:45:57.680 --> 00:45:58.220
 I always ask them,

00:45:58.260 --> 00:45:58.780
 what do you mean?

00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:00.000
 Because it can mean a lot of things

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.000
 and my language maybe was a little squishy.

00:46:02.660 --> 00:46:03.740
 So when I say allegoric,

00:46:04.060 --> 00:46:05.440
 I don't mean that it necessarily

00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:06.660
 is devoid of history

00:46:06.660 --> 00:46:08.140
 or that it's not going to have

00:46:08.140 --> 00:46:09.120
 an actual fulfillment symbol

00:46:09.120 --> 00:46:10.060
 is probably a better,

00:46:11.019 --> 00:46:12.480
 it's probably a better way

00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:13.460
 to describe that.

00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:14.500
 And that's the word that,

00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:16.539
 it's more similar to the word

00:46:16.539 --> 00:46:17.519
 that Revelation uses,

00:46:17.680 --> 00:46:18.740
 to sign something.

00:46:18.739 --> 00:46:19.239
 Yeah.

00:46:20.659 --> 00:46:21.759
 Off of Matt's point,

00:46:21.939 --> 00:46:22.219
 I think,

00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:23.619
 how would you,

00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:25.259
 when you're reading the Old Testament especially,

00:46:25.459 --> 00:46:27.139
 distinguish what the author

00:46:27.139 --> 00:46:28.819
 is using the apocalyptic imagery

00:46:28.819 --> 00:46:31.259
 versus meant to be interpreted

00:46:31.259 --> 00:46:32.259
 historically,

00:46:32.879 --> 00:46:33.279
 literally,

00:46:33.699 --> 00:46:34.379
 like in the,

00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:35.319
 I think a lot of people

00:46:35.319 --> 00:46:37.099
 have a hard time with allegory

00:46:37.099 --> 00:46:38.879
 because they want to say,

00:46:38.939 --> 00:46:39.099
 well,

00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:39.819
 if you're going to interpret

00:46:39.819 --> 00:46:41.679
 Genesis 1 or 2 allegorically,

00:46:41.819 --> 00:46:43.159
 then you're going to go off the rails,

00:46:43.299 --> 00:46:43.879
 there's not going to be,

00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:44.740
 you know,

00:46:44.860 --> 00:46:45.860
 and I just don't have them,

00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:47.840
 and so there's a lot of fear

00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:49.800
 for an allegorical

00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:51.880
 or apocalyptic way

00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:52.760
 of interpreting scripture.

00:46:53.240 --> 00:46:54.200
 But what are some signs

00:46:54.200 --> 00:46:54.660
 that like,

00:46:54.980 --> 00:46:56.539
 when we read like Isaiah

00:46:56.539 --> 00:46:57.740
 or Zechariah,

00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:58.519
 where we can say,

00:46:58.599 --> 00:46:58.760
 you know,

00:46:58.820 --> 00:46:59.220
 this is,

00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:01.320
 maybe I need to just be careful

00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:02.720
 that it's not intended

00:47:02.720 --> 00:47:03.539
 to be read,

00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:04.680
 as Matt said,

00:47:05.200 --> 00:47:06.079
 in a way that's

00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:07.180
 a literal fulfillment

00:47:07.180 --> 00:47:09.200
 rather than some sort of

00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:09.660
 signs,

00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:10.880
 apocalyptic imagery,

00:47:11.140 --> 00:47:11.420
 some,

00:47:12.220 --> 00:47:13.860
 just some guideposts

00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:14.160
 I mean,

00:47:14.220 --> 00:47:14.740
 that's the,

00:47:14.900 --> 00:47:15.079
 yeah.

00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:18.280
 I'd have to look

00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:19.680
 at individual passages,

00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:21.800
 but the Old Testament

00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:24.320
 can be very challenging

00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:26.079
 in the sense that

00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:27.780
 the Old Testament prophets

00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:28.720
 frequently talk about,

00:47:28.780 --> 00:47:29.079
 for instance,

00:47:29.140 --> 00:47:29.880
 the day of the Lord,

00:47:29.980 --> 00:47:30.599
 the day of the Lord

00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:30.980
 is coming,

00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:31.539
 the day of the Lord

00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:31.940
 is coming,

00:47:32.539 --> 00:47:33.280
 but when you really

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:33.900
 drill down,

00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:35.400
 it seems sometimes

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:36.519
 like this day of the Lord

00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:37.880
 means different things,

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:38.880
 and so sometimes

00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:40.220
 it does seem to be

00:47:40.220 --> 00:47:41.119
 talking about this

00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:42.280
 ultimate judgment

00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:43.380
 that's going to happen,

00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:44.500
 but other times

00:47:44.500 --> 00:47:45.260
 it seems to be talking

00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:45.760
 about more of a

00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:46.780
 particular judgment

00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:48.480
 that's going to happen

00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:49.280
 in history,

00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:49.940
 or sometimes even

00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:51.280
 an individual judgment,

00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:52.140
 like you're going to

00:47:52.140 --> 00:47:52.720
 meet your maker

00:47:52.720 --> 00:47:53.500
 one day,

00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:54.280
 or,

00:47:54.820 --> 00:47:56.420
 so an individual judgment

00:47:56.420 --> 00:47:56.820
 would be,

00:47:57.220 --> 00:47:57.760
 you're going to meet

00:47:57.760 --> 00:47:58.800
 your maker one day,

00:47:59.200 --> 00:48:00.820
 a particular one

00:48:00.820 --> 00:48:01.320
 would be,

00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:01.619
 you know,

00:48:01.660 --> 00:48:02.740
 this town that I'm

00:48:02.740 --> 00:48:03.579
 prophesying against

00:48:03.579 --> 00:48:04.099
 or city

00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:05.059
 is going to be

00:48:05.059 --> 00:48:06.140
 conquered at some point,

00:48:06.180 --> 00:48:06.940
 so it's general,

00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:08.079
 but it's not an ultimate,

00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:09.679
 it's not an ultimate

00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.159
 judgment when Christ

00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:11.599
 returns,

00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:12.799
 but then sometimes

00:48:12.799 --> 00:48:13.759
 it is talking about

00:48:13.759 --> 00:48:14.900
 an ultimate judgment,

00:48:15.139 --> 00:48:17.139
 and I don't know how,

00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:18.179
 that's the rub there,

00:48:18.279 --> 00:48:18.539
 that's,

00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:19.840
 it's hard to

00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:21.840
 sometimes figure out

00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:23.299
 which one of those three

00:48:23.299 --> 00:48:24.679
 or all of those three

00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:26.380
 is being referred to.

00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:27.799
 Babylon is a great

00:48:27.799 --> 00:48:28.460
 example of this.

00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:30.360
 Babylon is prophesied

00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:31.679
 against many times

00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:32.079
 in the Bible,

00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:34.039
 but we see Babylon

00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:35.340
 again in Revelation

00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:37.360
 where it symbolizes,

00:48:37.539 --> 00:48:38.940
 seems to symbolize

00:48:38.940 --> 00:48:40.139
 sort of this world

00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:41.500
 system of wickedness,

00:48:41.759 --> 00:48:43.500
 or you could think

00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:44.279
 of it more particular

00:48:44.279 --> 00:48:45.119
 where it's symbolizing

00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:46.480
 an actual empire

00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:47.759
 that will come.

00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:49.440
 Some people go further

00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:49.860
 and they say,

00:48:49.940 --> 00:48:50.039
 no,

00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:51.659
 it symbolized Rome

00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:53.619
 in 70 AD,

00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:56.460
 but if you want to

00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:57.159
 stretch it even more,

00:48:57.259 --> 00:48:57.380
 I mean,

00:48:57.480 --> 00:48:58.559
 Babylon goes way back

00:48:58.559 --> 00:48:59.480
 to the Tower of Babel

00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:00.579
 before Nebuchadnezzar,

00:49:00.759 --> 00:49:00.980
 and I mean,

00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:01.880
 it's this,

00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:02.780
 this image that goes

00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:03.559
 all throughout

00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:04.000
 the beginning

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:04.860
 and end of scripture,

00:49:05.640 --> 00:49:06.480
 and which,

00:49:07.099 --> 00:49:07.400
 like,

00:49:07.780 --> 00:49:08.740
 when you focus

00:49:08.740 --> 00:49:09.860
 on a particular passage

00:49:09.860 --> 00:49:10.360
 with Babylon

00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:10.980
 and then you ask,

00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:11.140
 well,

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:12.840
 what is this referring

00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:13.599
 to specifically?

00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:16.519
 It might have

00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:17.280
 multiple,

00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:19.099
 multiple reference

00:49:19.099 --> 00:49:19.840
 that it's referring

00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:20.960
 to the historical Babylon

00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:21.820
 led by Nebuchadnezzar

00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:22.340
 that was going to be

00:49:22.340 --> 00:49:23.340
 judged by the Persians

00:49:23.340 --> 00:49:25.260
 back in 600 BC,

00:49:25.720 --> 00:49:27.340
 but then Babylon

00:49:27.340 --> 00:49:28.579
 becomes a reimage

00:49:28.579 --> 00:49:31.019
 of the Roman Empire,

00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:31.820
 but then also

00:49:31.820 --> 00:49:32.240
 a reimage

00:49:32.240 --> 00:49:33.460
 of any wicked empire,

00:49:33.660 --> 00:49:33.960
 and so it,

00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:35.360
 that's how scripture

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:37.019
 reuses that imagery,

00:49:37.420 --> 00:49:38.080
 but it's,

00:49:38.120 --> 00:49:39.140
 there's no simple,

00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:40.720
 I can't come up

00:49:40.720 --> 00:49:41.320
 with a simple,

00:49:41.720 --> 00:49:42.940
 simple guy like,

00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:44.539
 I was going to say,

00:49:44.539 --> 00:49:47.940
 there are times

00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:48.800
 when you're reading

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:50.279
 one of these

00:49:50.279 --> 00:49:52.159
 apocalyptic passages

00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:53.000
 and you're like,

00:49:53.380 --> 00:49:53.840
 like,

00:49:53.860 --> 00:49:55.960
 it's so strange,

00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:57.739
 and it's not,

00:49:59.340 --> 00:49:59.579
 like,

00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:00.500
 so much of the Bible

00:50:00.500 --> 00:50:01.559
 is historical

00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:02.659
 and it gives you,

00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:03.059
 like,

00:50:03.139 --> 00:50:04.219
 this king was reigning

00:50:04.219 --> 00:50:05.259
 and this is happening

00:50:05.259 --> 00:50:06.000
 in this city,

00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:07.039
 and there are a lot

00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:08.340
 of specifics like that

00:50:08.340 --> 00:50:09.639
 without the imagery,

00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:09.719
 history,

00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:10.719
 and you know

00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:11.420
 you're on pretty

00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:12.299
 firm ground

00:50:12.299 --> 00:50:13.379
 that this is history,

00:50:13.380 --> 00:50:15.340
 and then you get

00:50:15.340 --> 00:50:16.099
 to something like

00:50:16.099 --> 00:50:16.680
 Revelation,

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:17.599
 and you're like,

00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:18.940
 well,

00:50:19.640 --> 00:50:20.480
 maybe it's history,

00:50:20.640 --> 00:50:21.800
 but this is really weird,

00:50:22.019 --> 00:50:22.240
 like,

00:50:22.300 --> 00:50:23.340
 there's a sense of,

00:50:23.680 --> 00:50:25.400
 there's a sense

00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:25.860
 where you can

00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:26.599
 kind of tell,

00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:28.319
 and then there are

00:50:28.319 --> 00:50:29.739
 things like

00:50:29.739 --> 00:50:31.719
 early chapters

00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:32.339
 of Genesis,

00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:34.539
 it doesn't sound

00:50:34.539 --> 00:50:35.579
 like apocalyptic

00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:36.319
 literature,

00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:37.599
 there are white horses

00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:38.279
 and beasts

00:50:38.279 --> 00:50:39.980
 and sort of

00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:41.839
 outrageous images,

00:50:43.339 --> 00:50:45.400
 but it's a little,

00:50:45.579 --> 00:50:47.019
 it's a little like that,

00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:47.839
 so you can,

00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:49.639
 so it's,

00:50:50.259 --> 00:50:50.759
 I don't want to say

00:50:50.759 --> 00:50:51.460
 it's debatable,

00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:52.599
 but you'll have

00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:53.480
 different opinions

00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:54.599
 about something like that,

00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:56.159
 but there are

00:50:56.159 --> 00:50:56.659
 some things,

00:50:56.879 --> 00:50:57.779
 I feel like there's

00:50:57.779 --> 00:50:58.659
 a lot of the Bible

00:50:58.659 --> 00:50:59.079
 that's,

00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:00.259
 it's pretty clear

00:51:00.259 --> 00:51:01.559
 when we're reading history,

00:51:01.819 --> 00:51:02.719
 and it's,

00:51:03.980 --> 00:51:04.420
 I mean,

00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:04.920
 to me,

00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:05.759
 the more you read

00:51:05.759 --> 00:51:07.039
 this apocalyptic stuff

00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:08.159
 and compare it

00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:08.739
 to other parts

00:51:08.739 --> 00:51:09.219
 of the Bible,

00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:10.079
 you go,

00:51:10.759 --> 00:51:10.980
 yeah,

00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:11.980
 this is a different,

00:51:12.319 --> 00:51:12.940
 I'm reading

00:51:12.940 --> 00:51:13.799
 a different kind of book,

00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:14.619
 this is not,

00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.119
 I'm not reading

00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:17.199
 a history textbook,

00:51:17.359 --> 00:51:18.079
 not that the Bible

00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:18.859
 ever is that,

00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.139
 but we all know

00:51:21.139 --> 00:51:23.079
 poetry looks different,

00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:23.980
 you know,

00:51:24.019 --> 00:51:24.960
 just in our world,

00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:25.779
 we all know

00:51:25.780 --> 00:51:27.220
 a history book

00:51:27.220 --> 00:51:29.320
 feels different

00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:30.519
 from a fantasy novel,

00:51:31.180 --> 00:51:31.640
 and I'm not,

00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:33.140
 I'm never suggesting

00:51:33.140 --> 00:51:34.120
 that Revelation

00:51:34.120 --> 00:51:34.820
 is fantasy,

00:51:35.060 --> 00:51:36.320
 but it has those

00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:37.480
 aspects of

00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:40.280
 strangeness,

00:51:40.780 --> 00:51:41.420
 and again,

00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:41.920
 as you say,

00:51:41.980 --> 00:51:43.180
 these recurring themes,

00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:44.260
 so the better

00:51:44.260 --> 00:51:45.180
 you get to know it,

00:51:45.940 --> 00:51:46.200
 oh yeah,

00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:47.360
 horses and fig trees,

00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:48.620
 those kinds of

00:51:48.620 --> 00:51:50.240
 themes that you mentioned,

00:51:50.980 --> 00:51:51.560
 those are,

00:51:51.660 --> 00:51:52.860
 those are some clues,

00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:54.920
 yeah,

00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:55.300
 I don't know,

00:51:55.300 --> 00:51:55.820
 I just want to,

00:51:56.160 --> 00:51:57.120
 I don't think it's as,

00:51:57.380 --> 00:51:58.539
 in places it's going

00:51:58.539 --> 00:51:59.140
 to be difficult,

00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:00.539
 I can see that,

00:52:00.640 --> 00:52:01.260
 but I don't think

00:52:01.260 --> 00:52:01.720
 it's ever,

00:52:02.340 --> 00:52:03.400
 I think most of the Bible

00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:04.200
 is a pretty clear

00:52:04.200 --> 00:52:04.700
 world reading,

00:52:05.500 --> 00:52:05.800
 that's,

00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:07.140
 that's one reason why

00:52:07.140 --> 00:52:08.340
 I think what I suggested

00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:08.880
 at the end,

00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:10.440
 if you sit down

00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:11.059
 and read Revelation,

00:52:11.200 --> 00:52:12.340
 make sure that you read it

00:52:12.340 --> 00:52:14.579
 with Paul and Jesus

00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:15.280
 as well,

00:52:15.380 --> 00:52:16.579
 because they are,

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:17.780
 Revelation starts out

00:52:17.780 --> 00:52:18.700
 basically saying,

00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:19.480
 these are visions,

00:52:19.700 --> 00:52:20.280
 these are visions,

00:52:20.420 --> 00:52:22.519
 where Jesus and Paul

00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:23.180
 are talking about

00:52:23.180 --> 00:52:24.180
 the same concepts,

00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:25.660
 but one's a sermon

00:52:25.660 --> 00:52:26.660
 and one's letters,

00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:28.480
 and so that will help

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.000
 calibrate your expectation

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:30.860
 and your understanding

00:52:30.860 --> 00:52:33.780
 of what's going on.

00:52:34.340 --> 00:52:34.640
 Matt.

00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:37.280
 Two general observations.

00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:39.060
 I think both liberals

00:52:39.060 --> 00:52:40.120
 and conservatives

00:52:40.120 --> 00:52:42.200
 sometimes confuse

00:52:42.200 --> 00:52:43.680
 the issue of literal

00:52:43.680 --> 00:52:45.200
 versus figurative

00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:46.060
 interpretation

00:52:46.060 --> 00:52:47.660
 with the authority

00:52:47.660 --> 00:52:48.900
 of scripture,

00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:50.519
 and I think those

00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:52.880
 are two different issues.

00:52:53.460 --> 00:52:54.920
 We all speak

00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:55.700
 in a combination

00:52:55.700 --> 00:52:56.480
 of literal

00:52:56.480 --> 00:52:58.620
 and figurative language.

00:52:59.280 --> 00:52:59.519
 You know,

00:52:59.580 --> 00:53:00.360
 most of the time

00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:01.740
 we speak literally,

00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:02.360
 probably,

00:53:02.500 --> 00:53:03.440
 but we almost always

00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:04.560
 include some figurative

00:53:04.560 --> 00:53:04.980
 language,

00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:05.860
 and of course

00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:06.780
 in poetry we,

00:53:06.780 --> 00:53:07.280
 you know,

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:08.000
 the figurative

00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:09.060
 seems to go up,

00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:10.500
 but that's one thing

00:53:10.500 --> 00:53:11.140
 to distinguish.

00:53:11.140 --> 00:53:11.920
 Okay, yeah.

00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:13.200
 And the other thing

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:15.400
 is that if you say,

00:53:15.540 --> 00:53:17.060
 ah, this is a figure,

00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:18.920
 there always is

00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:20.440
 a literal meaning

00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:21.740
 behind some books.

00:53:21.980 --> 00:53:24.300
 Just because you conclude,

00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:25.760
 ah, this is

00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:27.519
 a figurative language,

00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:29.780
 there is a literal

00:53:29.780 --> 00:53:31.040
 meaning of it.

00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:31.900
 You may not be able

00:53:31.900 --> 00:53:32.780
 to figure it out,

00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:34.340
 but there is

00:53:34.340 --> 00:53:35.860
 some literal meaning

00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:36.220
 language.

00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:37.220
 An example of that

00:53:37.220 --> 00:53:37.760
 would be like,

00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:38.019
 you know,

00:53:38.059 --> 00:53:39.240
 the lamb has seven eyes

00:53:39.240 --> 00:53:39.780
 in Revelation,

00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:40.740
 and you think like,

00:53:40.780 --> 00:53:41.480
 is Jesus going to have

00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:42.360
 seven eyes?

00:53:42.579 --> 00:53:43.039
 But no,

00:53:43.120 --> 00:53:43.940
 the seven eyes

00:53:43.940 --> 00:53:46.460
 talk about his omniscience.

00:53:46.579 --> 00:53:47.660
 He sees everything,

00:53:47.780 --> 00:53:48.980
 or the sword coming

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:49.920
 out of Jesus' mouth.

00:53:50.019 --> 00:53:50.539
 Like, is he going to be

00:53:50.539 --> 00:53:51.240
 walking around with us?

00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:52.380
 No, that's the word

00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:53.260
 of God that cuts

00:53:53.260 --> 00:53:54.039
 like a sword

00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:55.099
 that's coming out

00:53:55.099 --> 00:53:56.019
 of the mouth of Christ,

00:53:56.140 --> 00:53:58.360
 which is an actual thing.

00:53:58.500 --> 00:53:59.740
 It's not imaginative,

00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:00.840
 it's not some vague idea,

00:54:01.059 --> 00:54:02.039
 it's an actual thing.

00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.659
 I think we have time

00:54:04.659 --> 00:54:05.579
 for one quick question,

00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:07.000
 and then we'll break

00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:07.679
 because the service

00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:08.380
 is about to start,

00:54:08.779 --> 00:54:09.719
 but I'm happy

00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:10.300
 to keep talking

00:54:10.300 --> 00:54:10.980
 with some folks.

00:54:11.500 --> 00:54:12.619
 How do you do that?

00:54:12.759 --> 00:54:14.500
 How culturally common

00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:15.340
 was it then

00:54:15.340 --> 00:54:16.800
 to write like this,

00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:17.960
 and I'm thinking of

00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:18.960
 allegories that were

00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:19.960
 maybe a bit more apparent,

00:54:20.500 --> 00:54:21.980
 and that culture,

00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:22.800
 like, seven,

00:54:23.059 --> 00:54:23.779
 which, you know,

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.059
 now seven doesn't mean

00:54:25.059 --> 00:54:25.699
 a whole lot to make,

00:54:25.779 --> 00:54:26.259
 but back then,

00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:27.079
 it was much more significant.

00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:30.139
 So I guess in early churches

00:54:30.139 --> 00:54:31.039
 and early interpretations,

00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:32.299
 were those things

00:54:32.299 --> 00:54:33.179
 much more apparent,

00:54:33.380 --> 00:54:34.059
 and so they had

00:54:34.059 --> 00:54:35.219
 a different kind of

00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:35.880
 deal of revelation

00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:36.599
 from the point

00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:36.819
 that you might have

00:54:36.819 --> 00:54:38.099
 kind of touched upon?

00:54:38.179 --> 00:54:40.019
 Yeah, so one is that,

00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:41.559
 yes, it was a little more common.

00:54:42.420 --> 00:54:43.679
 It definitely was more common,

00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:45.920
 but it was still

00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:47.500
 a little unusual,

00:54:47.799 --> 00:54:48.000
 I mean,

00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:49.299
 but it was definitely

00:54:49.299 --> 00:54:49.819
 more common.

00:54:50.179 --> 00:54:50.920
 We also have to remember,

00:54:51.380 --> 00:54:52.219
 Revelation is written

00:54:52.219 --> 00:54:52.659
 in Greek,

00:54:52.759 --> 00:54:53.219
 but it's written

00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:54.460
 with the Jewish background,

00:54:54.759 --> 00:54:55.599
 someone who's steeped

00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:56.139
 in Judaism,

00:54:56.380 --> 00:54:57.259
 who's a Jew himself,

00:54:57.679 --> 00:54:58.559
 writing to people

00:54:58.559 --> 00:54:59.639
 that are largely Jewish.

00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:00.219
 You can tell that

00:55:00.219 --> 00:55:00.699
 in the letters

00:55:00.699 --> 00:55:01.980
 that they keep having

00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:03.179
 these problems with Jews

00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:04.299
 in their synagogues

00:55:04.299 --> 00:55:05.000
 and things like that.

00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:07.199
 So a lot of our,

00:55:07.299 --> 00:55:08.339
 almost all of our

00:55:08.339 --> 00:55:09.179
 early interpreters

00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:10.880
 are Greeks or Romans,

00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.119
 and so they are coming

00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:13.920
 from a different

00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:15.239
 cultural perspective,

00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:16.839
 and so you have,

00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:17.839
 you have, like,

00:55:18.500 --> 00:55:19.699
 pretty diverse views

00:55:19.699 --> 00:55:20.339
 on Revelation

00:55:20.339 --> 00:55:21.139
 in the early church

00:55:21.139 --> 00:55:21.980
 about what it means.

00:55:22.299 --> 00:55:23.420
 One of our first

00:55:23.420 --> 00:55:26.579
 instances of event,

00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:27.099
 actually,

00:55:27.220 --> 00:55:28.079
 the first example

00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:28.880
 of someone interpreting

00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:29.320
 Revelation

00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:30.079
 is a guy named

00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:31.340
 Justin the Philosopher,

00:55:31.579 --> 00:55:32.039
 also known as

00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:32.700
 Justin the Martyr.

00:55:33.019 --> 00:55:33.880
 He's writing in the year,

00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:35.700
 like, 155 from Ephesus,

00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:36.880
 and he says,

00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:37.599
 there was this guy

00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:38.139
 named John

00:55:38.139 --> 00:55:39.139
 who saw this revelation

00:55:39.139 --> 00:55:39.619
 among us,

00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:40.579
 and he said that the saints

00:55:40.579 --> 00:55:41.539
 would reign a thousand years.

00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:42.019
 He's talking about

00:55:42.019 --> 00:55:42.400
 the millennium,

00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:43.280
 and he says,

00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:44.280
 some of us think

00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:44.880
 this is literal,

00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:46.019
 some of us don't.

00:55:47.300 --> 00:55:47.619
 Already,

00:55:47.860 --> 00:55:48.760
 like, 50 years in,

00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:49.260
 and they're like,

00:55:49.300 --> 00:55:49.700
 we don't know

00:55:49.700 --> 00:55:50.440
 what to do with this,

00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:51.360
 and you see that,

00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:52.519
 that millennial,

00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:53.719
 that one example

00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:55.699
 has had different sides

00:55:55.699 --> 00:55:56.920
 from the very beginning,

00:55:57.360 --> 00:55:58.300
 and you'll see it

00:55:58.300 --> 00:55:59.039
 with futurism

00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:00.019
 and preterism as well,

00:56:00.099 --> 00:56:01.539
 that the early church,

00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:02.360
 the medieval church,

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:03.079
 they're all,

00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:04.340
 some of them are on one side,

00:56:04.420 --> 00:56:05.139
 some of them are on the other.

00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:07.639
 That relates to the numbers,

00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:09.039
 that some of them think,

00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:11.440
 they are more willing,

00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:11.619
 though,

00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:12.380
 to take the numbers

00:56:12.380 --> 00:56:13.139
 as allegorical,

00:56:13.259 --> 00:56:13.800
 that in their,

00:56:14.019 --> 00:56:15.219
 even in Greco-Roman culture,

00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:17.960
 using numbers as a symbol

00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:18.739
 was more common

00:56:18.739 --> 00:56:19.420
 than it is today,

00:56:19.420 --> 00:56:21.980
 but it was still like not,

00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:24.280
 it wasn't like everyday speech,

00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:25.039
 you would be doing that,

00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:25.740
 but it was something

00:56:25.740 --> 00:56:26.880
 that was known

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:28.480
 and did occur

00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:29.940
 in their culture,

00:56:30.019 --> 00:56:31.059
 whereas in our culture,

00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:31.840
 in Western culture,

00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:33.280
 we usually always have

00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:34.139
 to preface it

00:56:34.139 --> 00:56:35.059
 to explain it.

00:56:35.200 --> 00:56:36.180
 We can't just assume

00:56:36.180 --> 00:56:37.579
 that people will understand that.

00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:38.900
 Okay,

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:39.820
 let's break.

00:56:40.099 --> 00:56:40.920
 I'll pray real quick.

00:56:41.300 --> 00:56:41.700
 Father,

00:56:41.780 --> 00:56:42.380
 we just ask you

00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:43.000
 to be with us

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:43.420
 as we,

00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:46.460
 as we read your word,

00:56:46.539 --> 00:56:47.440
 and you give us hope,

00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:49.599
 and Lord,

00:56:49.659 --> 00:56:50.559
 a godly fear

00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:51.500
 and reverence,

00:56:51.740 --> 00:56:52.039
 Lord,

00:56:52.099 --> 00:56:52.740
 and that you'd help us

00:56:52.740 --> 00:56:54.240
 to call the nations to you

00:56:54.240 --> 00:56:55.380
 through your warnings

00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:55.960
 and revelation,

00:56:56.240 --> 00:56:57.059
 and we pray this

00:56:57.059 --> 00:56:57.760
 in the name of Jesus.

00:56:58.079 --> 00:56:58.240
 Amen.

00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:00.000
 All right,

00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:00.559
 thanks folks.