WEBVTT

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 Thank you, everybody, for coming.

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 We're going to be sitting because we're therapists

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 and we feel more comfortable having conversations today.

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 So, but we're going to say thank you for moving in.

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 Yes, thanks for moving in.

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 And it's been great to be here.

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 So Stephanie, let's go ahead and start us off in prayer

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 and we'll go ahead and jump in.

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 Let's go.

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 All right.

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 Lord Jesus, we are thankful for the Sabbath

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 and the chance to come together in fellowship.

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 And to worship you.

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 We thank you that you are a God who is close to the brokenhearted

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 and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

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 And that you are tender and you are near to us

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 no matter what season of life we are in.

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 Lord, we pray for this Sunday School series

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 that it would be a time of blessing and encouragement

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 and a way for us all to remember our image

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 that is created in your image, Lord.

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 The delight and honor and dignity that is inherent in each of us.

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 And so Father, we pray that your spirit would fill this room

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 and guide our time together.

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 In Jesus' name we pray.

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 All right.

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 So welcome.

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 Thank you for showing up early on a Sunday morning.

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 So the class is called Faith and Mental Health.

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 We will have four weeks, skip a week, the third week of May.

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 But this is kind of like an introductory course

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 to just kind of begin a conversation around church

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 and faith and mental health.

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 Thank you.

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 So in terms of introductions.

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 All right.

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 So my name is Elena.

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 I'm a clinical psychologist.

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 So I have my doctoral degree in clinical psychology,

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 and I work over at Yale doing individual and group therapy.

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 And Stephanie and I work together.

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 Yay.

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 Yeah.

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 And my name is Stephanie.

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 I'm a psychiatrist, which means that I went to medical school,

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 residency, fellowship.

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 And I also do a bit of therapy, but also do medications as well.

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 So if you have any questions about medications,

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 Stephanie is the better person to answer that.

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 So we wanted to start off by just kind of sharing a little bit

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 about how we came to be interested in this topic.

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 And so Elena will start us off.

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 Yeah.

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 So I guess I just want to acknowledge, I mean,

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 I know like having sat in these kind of classes before,

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 probably many people here who realize like might be struggling

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 with mental health concerns or have a loved one who does.

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 So kind of by way of introduction,

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 I just wanted to share a little piece of my own story,

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 kind of apart from the professional side.

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 So I also struggle with my mental health.

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 I have OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder,

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 since I was a little kid.

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 And I consider that to be very much like sort of a present tense experience.

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 It's not something that God has removed kind of from me at this point in time.

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 But it has also been something that God has really used in my life

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 to just give me a calling to serve others

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 and to help me understand Christ's compassion for us

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 in a really profound way I don't think I would have otherwise known.

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 So I guess I just want to say,

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 if you're here and you're struggling or someone you love is struggling,

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 I'm very much approaching this as one of you

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 and not like the person just teaching.

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 Yeah, and I'm also a person who's benefited from therapy and medication

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 as a...

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 Oh, sorry.

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 Talk a little louder.

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 From therapy and medication to help me flourish kind of with this experience.

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 So yeah, there's more to say.

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 So if anyone has more questions,

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 you're welcome to chat with me anytime.

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 But I just want to put a little piece of that out there.

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 I think for me,

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 part of my journey into mental health

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 is also informed by the cultural piece.

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 And so kind of having grown up in an Asian-American Christian faith community,

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 there was a lot of stigma around mental health.

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 It wasn't really talked about.

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 It was kind of, you know,

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 this new generation has it so easy.

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 You know, what are y'all complaining about?

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 And so there was always kind of a disconnect between that

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 and just kind of even like working through my own emotions

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 or walking with friends who, you know,

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 even starting from middle school, high school,

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 struggled with eating disorders and self-harm and trauma.

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 And so just kind of when I went to medical school,

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 really finding that as a calling of, you know,

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 here was a place in medicine to really walk with people in their journeys,

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 really understand how they were thinking,

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 about things.

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 And so that, I hated the rest of medicine.

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 And so that really felt like a,

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 that really felt like God's specific call.

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 And so I am very grateful for that.

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 And just kind of the chance,

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 because mental illness so often is chronic,

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 just really the chance to develop relationships

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 with the people that we work with.

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 So we wanted to just kind of start off like really at a basic foundational level,

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 like what is mental health?

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 What is mental illness?

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 We talk about the illness wellness continuum.

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 And Alina can expand on that.

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 But just kind of a brief definition we would start with is that mental health includes our emotional,

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 psychological, spiritual, and social well-being.

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 So this is the foundation for how we think, how we feel, how we act.

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 And whenever we have stressors in our lives,

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 and we go through hard things,

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 how we form relationships with other people,

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 how we're interacting with them,

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 what conflicts we're having,

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 how we make choices.

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 Those are all related to mental health.

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 And it's not just something that you achieve,

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 but it's something that developmentally,

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 even from birth when we talk about attachment and get older

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 and are closer to the end of life,

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 it's impacting how we process those stages

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 and how we contribute to the communities that we're in.

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 And so mental illness disrupts this.

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 And so people who experience mental health problems

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 have trouble with, again, their thoughts, their feelings,

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 their behaviors in ways that get in the way of functioning,

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 of doing, you know, going to work, going to school,

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 having healthy relationships.

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 So any distress or problems in those areas

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 are times we start thinking about, you know,

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 kind of where on the continuum this person is.

00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:09.800
 Do you want to ask?

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 Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot to be said from the realm of,

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 like, illness to wellness.

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 And just because we're not ill doesn't necessarily mean we're well.

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 But we're going to be focusing a lot on,

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 I would say that, like, green to yellow portion here,

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 like signs, symptoms, disability.

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 So really, like, what do we do as Christians

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 if we find ourselves, like, not over here in this wellness part,

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 but, like, really, really struggling.

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 And as we'll talk about, Christians do frequently find ourselves there.

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 So, like, how do we do and what do we respond?

00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.220
 Yeah, so the topic is super broad, right?

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 And so, I mean, just to kind of give a brief list, right,

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 this includes when we talk about mental health,

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 we include mood disorders, like depression,

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 major depressive disorder.

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 We're including bipolar disorder.

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 We're including thought process disorders,

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 like schizophrenia, psychosis, addiction, substance use,

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 eating disorders, trauma, PTSD.

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 Like neurodevelopmental.

00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:16.000
 Yeah, right.

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 A lot of neurodevelopmental slash, like, neurodiversity conditions, right,

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 that not that they're necessarily pathologized,

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 but that they can maybe disproportionately be associated

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 with needs for support.

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 So, like, autism, ADHD, that kind of a thing.

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 Tic disorders.

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 Yeah, so it's, like, a huge area, right,

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 that requires, like, you know,

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 we've gone through decades of training between the two of us.

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 And so I think kind of for the purposes of this class,

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 we're probably going to focus more on, like, anxiety and depression.

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 Particularly, I think that came more to, like,

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 society-level awareness during the pandemic, right?

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 Everybody's feeling like they're languishing,

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 not flourishing, feeling really isolated.

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 So I think that can be a little bit more relatable in some ways.

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 But we'll touch upon kind of other aspects of those

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 if you don't have specific questions about it

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 or want to talk about that.

00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.299
 We kept, as we were preparing, we kept thinking, like,

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 oh, we could teach this class for probably, like, three years.

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 So this is, like, a brief overview of selected topics.

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 So if you want to talk more, just have coffee with us.

00:09:25.860 --> 00:09:26.480
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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 And we welcome feedback and, like, questions

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 and things that y'all want to talk about.

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 And so feel free to email us or email Michelle.

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 Yeah.

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 And she'll pass it at us.

00:09:36.180 --> 00:09:36.500
 Yes.

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 Yeah.

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 And we're going to be pretty interactive, like,

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 during this time, too.

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 So, yeah.

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 All right.

00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.740
 So, well, I'm guessing you all care about this topic,

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 which is probably why you're here.

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 But just to share some brief statistics,

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 I did a little bit of research about kind of mental illness

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 nationally in our country as well as mental illness among Christians.

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 So generally there's different statistics,

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 but around one in five adults in the U.S.

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 experience mental illness at a given point in time.

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 And the rates for Christians don't appear to be much different from that.

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 So there was a recent research study that found that 23% of pastors

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 report experiencing mental illness.

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 So, again, that's about one in five or slightly more.

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 And only half of those pastors report having been formally diagnosed.

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 So there seems to be in the church,

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 and statistics reflect sort of a disconnect between, like,

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 kind of the proportion of people in church who experience mental illness

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 and the proportion of people in church who are getting the kind of care

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 that they are desiring and want.

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 So, you know, and I think mental illness is hard to talk about in church

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 for a variety of reasons that we're going to go into probably.

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 But two-thirds of pastors said they talk to their congregation

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 about mental illness once a year or less.

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 So it is, you know, there's kind of a disconnect there.

00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:02.419
 A third...

00:11:02.419 --> 00:11:03.220
 It's hard to hear you.

00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:04.480
 Oh, okay, so sorry.

00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:11.379
 Yeah, so one-third of people who attend church say that they have had a close

00:11:11.379 --> 00:11:15.440
 acquaintance or family member who's died by suicide.

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 And we often know that when people struggle with mental illness,

00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:27.100
 they go to clergy before they go to psychologists or psychiatrists.

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 So there was a 2003 study that people were more likely actually to seek support

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 from a pastor first as opposed to from, like, a therapist.

00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:40.220
 All right.

00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:41.580
 Great.

00:11:41.659 --> 00:11:45.220
 So I think that in terms of why we should care, right,

00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.000
 is that even if it's not talked about in specific spaces,

00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.000
 it is still happening to us as Christians.

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 It's happening to leaders in the church.

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 And people want to talk about it, but for a variety of reasons, maybe we're not.

00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:01.139
 Would it help the projection if we stand up?

00:12:01.420 --> 00:12:01.600
 Yeah.

00:12:01.820 --> 00:12:02.840
 Okay, so let's go.

00:12:02.940 --> 00:12:03.320
 We will.

00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:03.620
 Sorry.

00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:04.980
 Great.

00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:05.660
 Not me.

00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:06.560
 I think...

00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:09.400
 All right.

00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:10.580
 Okay.

00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:16.580
 All righty.

00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:19.139
 Let me know if this is better.

00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:19.980
 Hopefully we'll...

00:12:19.980 --> 00:12:20.460
 Perfect.

00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:21.879
 Okay.

00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:23.280
 All right.

00:12:23.420 --> 00:12:25.879
 So we're just going to start with...

00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:27.460
 This is really a topic for today.

00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:29.420
 Why do people struggle with mental illness?

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 And what are the variety of factors that can contribute to that?

00:12:32.780 --> 00:12:36.780
 So we actually just wanted to start by hearing all of your perspectives.

00:12:38.060 --> 00:12:40.519
 We really wanted to know what have you heard, like, in the church

00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.360
 or in Christian communities about why people struggle with mental illness?

00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:45.820
 This doesn't have to be in this church specifically,

00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.420
 but, like, in your experiences with churches more broadly.

00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:50.139
 Yeah.

00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:52.679
 What sort of reasons have people been heard?

00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:52.980
 Yeah.

00:12:53.179 --> 00:12:53.399
 Yeah.

00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:54.080
 Yeah.

00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:54.720
 Yeah.

00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:55.659
 For sure.

00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:57.019
 For sure.

00:12:57.100 --> 00:12:57.699
 That's a big one.

00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.199
 Any other ideas or things you've heard?

00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:03.860
 Either sort of things you agree with or disagree with.

00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:04.799
 It could be on either side.

00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:07.480
 Sin is a big one.

00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:09.100
 Sin is a big one.

00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:09.419
 Sin.

00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:09.779
 Yeah.

00:13:09.899 --> 00:13:09.919
 Yeah.

00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:10.039
 Yeah.

00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:10.639
 That's one.

00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.699
 In Christian communities, it's hard.

00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:13.839
 And that could go two ways.

00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.679
 It could be, like, we just live in a sinful, fallen world.

00:13:16.979 --> 00:13:17.179
 Yeah.

00:13:17.179 --> 00:13:19.120
 Or it could mean you're not trusting God enough.

00:13:19.339 --> 00:13:20.959
 It could kind of go a couple of ways.

00:13:21.099 --> 00:13:21.379
 Right.

00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:22.399
 Yeah.

00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:22.979
 Exactly.

00:13:23.599 --> 00:13:23.799
 Yeah.

00:13:23.939 --> 00:13:24.120
 Yeah.

00:13:24.259 --> 00:13:25.799
 Is there a genetic component?

00:13:26.319 --> 00:13:29.039
 Like, if you have family members who have sex with a child,

00:13:29.299 --> 00:13:30.479
 you're more likely to get it?

00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:30.899
 Right.

00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:31.399
 Exactly.

00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:31.939
 Yeah.

00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:32.060
 Yeah.

00:13:32.180 --> 00:13:34.080
 Specific, like, if they have bipolar,

00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:36.580
 maybe you're more likely to get bipolar.

00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:37.860
 Yeah.

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:38.540
 Yeah.

00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:40.280
 That can be a factor for sure.

00:13:41.420 --> 00:13:41.860
 Absolutely.

00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:43.280
 Yeah.

00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:45.180
 Any other things you've heard in churches?

00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:45.600
 Yeah.

00:13:45.900 --> 00:13:47.960
 I think grief is a big part of it.

00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:48.260
 Yeah.

00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:49.280
 Yeah.

00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:50.160
 Absolutely.

00:13:51.220 --> 00:13:51.580
 Yeah.

00:13:51.880 --> 00:13:54.620
 I don't think the church knows how to deal with that sometimes.

00:13:54.620 --> 00:13:55.240
 Mm-hmm.

00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.540
 How do you address that with people?

00:13:56.740 --> 00:13:56.980
 Yeah.

00:13:57.300 --> 00:13:57.740
 Right.

00:13:58.700 --> 00:13:58.980
 Yeah.

00:13:59.200 --> 00:13:59.420
 Great.

00:13:59.520 --> 00:13:59.920
 Yeah, Tyler.

00:13:59.919 --> 00:13:59.959
 Yeah.

00:14:00.899 --> 00:14:03.779
 Unable to handle negative emotions.

00:14:04.199 --> 00:14:04.740
 Mm-hmm.

00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:12.299
 And so there's a confusion about what do I do when I'm feeling beleaguered or anxious about

00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:12.599
 something.

00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:13.259
 Yep.

00:14:13.659 --> 00:14:14.099
 Absolutely.

00:14:14.479 --> 00:14:14.939
 Absolutely.

00:14:15.439 --> 00:14:15.639
 Yep.

00:14:15.699 --> 00:14:17.699
 And I think that gets tricky with our faith, too.

00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:19.899
 Like, what does that mean if you're feeling that and you're oppression?

00:14:20.259 --> 00:14:20.479
 And yeah.

00:14:20.599 --> 00:14:21.039
 Absolutely.

00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:22.299
 Yeah.

00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:22.360
 Yeah.

00:14:22.479 --> 00:14:26.379
 The physical TDI or brain tumor.

00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:27.059
 Mm-hmm.

00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:27.759
 Yeah.

00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:28.439
 Or moral amount.

00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:29.579
 Absolutely.

00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:30.219
 Yeah.

00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:30.819
 Absolutely.

00:14:31.379 --> 00:14:31.579
 Yeah.

00:14:31.699 --> 00:14:32.219
 For sure.

00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:39.240
 So we are, yeah, these are all great, and you go segue to a lot of different things that

00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:40.860
 we are, that we're going to talk about.

00:14:41.079 --> 00:14:47.059
 And so we're going to go over three common questions that are specific to the church and

00:14:47.059 --> 00:14:53.379
 to Christians that we have often heard ourselves in churches that we've been in or working with

00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:55.179
 Christians or just being Christians.

00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:59.039
 So three common questions about the causes of mental illness.

00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:00.719
 One would be, have I sinned?

00:15:00.819 --> 00:15:03.539
 Like, am I struggling with mental illness because of my own sin?

00:15:04.459 --> 00:15:09.579
 Am I struggling because my faith is weak or I need to do more spiritual disciplines or that

00:15:09.579 --> 00:15:10.019
 type of thing?

00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:16.600
 And what about the role of, like, demonic oppression or spiritual warfare in our understanding of

00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:17.120
 mental illness?

00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:18.480
 Can everybody hear us better?

00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:19.340
 Okay.

00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:19.399
 Okay.

00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:24.959
 I notoriously talk quietly, so this is good feedback.

00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:25.399
 Okay.

00:15:26.939 --> 00:15:27.759
 All right.

00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:36.819
 So what we know, the framework we're going to be using is that mental illness that causes

00:15:36.819 --> 00:15:41.980
 mental illness, we call, are multi-causal and multi-maintained, which basically means what

00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:42.220
 it sounds.

00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:47.720
 So there are many different factors that contribute to why somebody might have mental illness, and

00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.080
 there are many factors that can keep a mental illness going.

00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:51.120
 Okay.

00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:58.160
 So we use the biopsychosocial-spiritual model, which is just a way of saying, like, everything

00:15:58.160 --> 00:15:59.580
 of what all of you just said.

00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:03.820
 So our biological, like, our brain chemistry, genetics play a role.

00:16:04.520 --> 00:16:11.139
 Our social life is also, you know, how are our relationships, divorce, you know, struggling

00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:15.280
 friendships, parent-child trauma, you know, these kinds of things.

00:16:15.800 --> 00:16:20.940
 Our psychological factors, so, like, our temperament, how can we deal with emotions, like,

00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:26.200
 Tyler said, we, most of us have a bent kind of toward either we feel a little more anxious

00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.080
 or we're a little more depressed, or, you know, we all have these kind of different psychological

00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.820
 factors, and then spiritually, like, where are we at with God, what has been our experience

00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:38.260
 in the church with other Christians, and all of these things play a role in the development

00:16:38.260 --> 00:16:39.560
 of making this mental illness.

00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:42.720
 All right.

00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:44.000
 Anything else you want to...

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:44.120
 Ooh!

00:16:45.380 --> 00:16:46.400
 Sorry, but Admin.

00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:51.500
 I think y'all actually covered, like, all of the different categories, right?

00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:56.240
 Like, somebody mentioned if there's, you know, if you have a family member who struggled with

00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:01.679
 mental health, has needed medications, or has been hospitalized psychiatrically, or has committed

00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.179
 suicide, or tried suicide, right?

00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:10.619
 Those are all huge risk factors biologically for why, you know, the next generation might struggle.

00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:16.639
 And then I think socially it can go either way in terms of, like, are you isolated?

00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:17.599
 Do you have community?

00:17:17.919 --> 00:17:19.199
 The strength of the relationships.

00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:25.779
 And then, you know, there's spiritual overlap as well with sin and fallenness that we'll get

00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:26.639
 into as well.

00:17:27.459 --> 00:17:32.639
 And very often what happens for most people is that those who struggle with mental illness

00:17:32.639 --> 00:17:35.679
 have some sort of predisposition, like, biologically.

00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:42.160
 But then there is some sort of life event or stressor or difficult circumstance, which actually

00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.440
 contributes to sort of triggering that predisposition.

00:17:46.080 --> 00:17:48.860
 So that's not 100% across the board.

00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:54.600
 Obviously it's complex, but for most people there's a combination of those two genetic factors

00:17:54.600 --> 00:17:56.039
 and then life stressors.

00:17:58.519 --> 00:17:59.259
 All right.

00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:00.259
 So...

00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:08.259
 Sorry.

00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:10.259
 It's just going...

00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.420
 No, you can...

00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:12.640
 All right.

00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:13.559
 Do you want me to do it while you're doing it?

00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:14.039
 Oh, sure.

00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:14.559
 That's great.

00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:17.119
 You get a little sense of where we're going.

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:18.160
 There we go.

00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:20.519
 Okay.

00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.160
 I guess we already covered.

00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:24.140
 All right.

00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:24.980
 So I think...

00:18:24.980 --> 00:18:27.259
 So in terms of the purpose kind of section...

00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:27.940
 Oh, yeah.

00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:28.420
 Yeah.

00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:29.019
 Yeah.

00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:34.740
 So giving into what Michelle shared about mental illness in the church, people often

00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:36.119
 bring up issues of sin.

00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.160
 So like, have I...

00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.920
 If I'm depressed or anxious, like, have I sinned?

00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.339
 Or like, do I have some kind of unconfessed sin?

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:46.319
 Or is there something that I'm not doing right?

00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.079
 That's like a pretty common one that comes up either explicitly or implicitly.

00:18:51.859 --> 00:18:55.500
 So I guess we're just curious if you've ever seen that among Christians.

00:18:55.500 --> 00:18:59.119
 Like, people attribute mental illness to sin in different ways.

00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:00.680
 And how that...

00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:02.140
 Like, what might be the effect of that?

00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:05.019
 Like, what might be the effect of that on somebody who is struggling?

00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:10.720
 And again, it doesn't have to be like this one specifically, but...

00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.319
 She had a general experience.

00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.319
 Yeah.

00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:14.319
 Yeah.

00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:15.220
 Actually.

00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:15.299
 Actually.

00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:16.299
 Um...

00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:19.220
 For a long time...

00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:23.599
 A long period of my life, I was involved with the Autism Society.

00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.220
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:28.279
 Because for those of you who don't know me, my daughter has autism.

00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:28.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:29.600
 Um...

00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:34.779
 And I had the opportunity to, um, go on a date with her.

00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:36.100
 Um...

00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:42.259
 And her date's mother and I chatted while they were having their date.

00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.579
 Yeah.

00:19:42.579 --> 00:19:45.019
 And, um, I...

00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:52.039
 As I always do, ask about, well, you know, if your support system includes your church family.

00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:52.659
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:52.659 --> 00:19:55.139
 And she says, oh, I don't go to church anymore.

00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:55.839
 Mm-hmm.

00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:06.980
 And she told me this horrific story of, um, when she let her faith community know that her son had been diagnosed with autism.

00:20:06.980 --> 00:20:36.960
 Mm-hmm.

00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:40.140
 And she impacted an entire family.

00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:41.140
 Mm-hmm.

00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:42.920
 And, uh, so...

00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:43.180
 Yeah.

00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:43.819
 Yeah.

00:20:43.819 --> 00:20:44.180
 Yeah.

00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:52.799
 I've seen problems with that kind of thought process in terms of any type of mental illness that's attributed to sin.

00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.220
 Yeah.

00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:53.740
 Yeah.

00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:53.799
 Yeah.

00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:54.500
 Thanks for sharing.

00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:55.500
 That's really horrible.

00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:56.740
 It's a hard story.

00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:57.259
 Yeah.

00:20:57.259 --> 00:20:57.819
 Absolutely.

00:20:57.819 --> 00:20:58.099
 Yeah.

00:20:58.099 --> 00:20:58.420
 Tyler.

00:20:58.420 --> 00:20:59.099
 Yeah.

00:20:59.099 --> 00:21:00.400
 I'll just echo that.

00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.500
 I know a family here at Trinity who's...

00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:06.960
 They adopted one of their children who ended up having severe mental disabilities.

00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:07.960
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.120
 And their old church said, well, it's because of your sin.

00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:12.279
 Like John 9, who sinned?

00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:13.279
 He was a manager's parents.

00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:14.279
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:15.279
 So this must be your...

00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.319
 Because of you, God is punishing your son.

00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:19.319
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:21.120
 But, uh, I think the other side...

00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.699
 That's one, I think Jesus suggested that in John 9.

00:21:24.699 --> 00:21:33.479
 Um, but also, I think Psalm 30, 32, where unconfessed sin, it says that my strength was dried up by the heat of summer.

00:21:33.479 --> 00:21:37.739
 So, again, there's no one besides fits all the answer here.

00:21:37.739 --> 00:21:37.839
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.339
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:44.379
 So, sometimes unconfessed sin can have, like, affect our bodies and our strength.

00:21:44.379 --> 00:21:44.879
 Mm-hmm.

00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:45.880
 Yeah.

00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:46.880
 Absolutely.

00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:47.880
 It's a long enough.

00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:48.880
 That we can't.

00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:49.880
 Yeah.

00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:50.880
 Yeah.

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:59.880
 But I think the stories that y'all are sharing both kind of illustrate how if we feel like, oh, this person is struggling just because of sin, right, we're...

00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:12.880
 It can be alienating to the person who's already suffering, right, and it puts us in a position of, like, distancing from the person who's, you know, already struggling and seeking community, and we're like, well, this is your problem, right?

00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:13.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:16.880
 Versus, like, being able to join in with them and journey with them.

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:17.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:18.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:19.880
 That's true.

00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:25.880
 It was also true that, like, you read for yourself because of my watch.

00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:26.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.880
 So, when I was in college, I stopped following God, and I studied architecture.

00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:36.880
 So, then when I wasn't following God, I became very proud and ambitious.

00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:38.880
 And I wanted, like, the best project ever.

00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.880
 And so, I ended up getting a job at the best architecture firm in the world.

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.880
 And so, but the point is, the reason I'm saying is they were, like, an idol in my heart.

00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:48.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:51.880
 And actually, the reason they were so rich is they don't pay the employees.

00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:52.880
 They work all the time.

00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:53.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:54.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:55.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.880
 So, I realize now, had I been more content in God and never built this, you know, I wouldn't

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.880
 have wanted that pride and assumption.

00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.880
 I would have had, actually, a better life.

00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:05.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.880
 So, there is something where you reap what you sow, and God's not mocked.

00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.880
 But, but at the same time, there is the John 9 story.

00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:13.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:14.880
 But you have to keep both.

00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:19.880
 So, I know that I deserve to be mistreated because they were an idol.

00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:20.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.880
 Yeah, this is, yeah, it's really complex.

00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.880
 And this is a great segue because we're going to cover kind of both sides of things here.

00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:33.880
 Like, what, really the question is, like, what role does our personal sin play in the development

00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:35.880
 of mental illness or the maintenance of it, if any?

00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:36.880
 Right?

00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:37.880
 So, I think that's our question.

00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.880
 And there's a lot to be said about it in so many painful different experiences with

00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:43.880
 that.

00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:49.880
 So, I guess one thing to recognize, and we're going to get into the sin part in the next

00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:56.880
 slide, I promise, but there are so many different elements of living in a fallen world and of

00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:03.880
 people sinning against us that really profoundly impact the development and maintenance of mental illness.

00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:08.880
 So, this word, clout, on the left is just a few of the things that would be not somebody's

00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.880
 fault, per se, but are just an element of living in a fallen world that could profoundly,

00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:19.880
 you know, contribute to somebody's depression, anxiety, psychosis, anything else.

00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.880
 So, job loss, chronic pain, racism.

00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:27.880
 So, this would be, like, experience, like, living in a fallen society, right?

00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.880
 Or living in a fallen body, like a physical disability.

00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:36.880
 And then Stephanie's going to talk a little bit about some experiences in early childhood,

00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.880
 but you also really set committee up for development and maintenance of mental illness.

00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.880
 Do you want to talk about that?

00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.880
 Yeah.

00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.880
 So, this is, like, the chart on the right is just kind of like a well-known thing within

00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:53.880
 developmental psychiatry and psychology called the adverse childhood events.

00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.880
 So, ACEs for short, right?

00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.880
 And so, sometimes, I mean, you know, we might look at Elena's example of, like, well,

00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.880
 you're in financial struggle.

00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:04.880
 Like, maybe you just didn't manage your money well, right?

00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.880
 And, you know, you're in chronic pain.

00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:09.880
 Maybe you should kind of just, like, get it together, right?

00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:17.880
 But I think that when we look at adverse childhood events that really cumulatively increase

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.880
 the risk that someone is going to struggle with mental illness, I think we also see how

00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:26.880
 much of where we're at right now, if we are well or wherever we're on the spectrum, right,

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:31.880
 is due to circumstances that we can't take credit for.

00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:38.880
 And so, you know, for somebody to have been born into a household with abuse or neglect,

00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:44.880
 if your parents are incarcerated, if you have a parent who's struggling with substance use,

00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:50.880
 somebody mentioned adoption, right, and that rupture in early childhood, even if that child

00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:57.880
 can't verbalize it, right, those all manifest in different patterns of thinking and feeling

00:25:57.880 --> 00:25:58.880
 and acting.

00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:04.880
 And so, I think, you know, for those who are well, really, to have a sense of, like, humility

00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:10.880
 and gratefulness for the Lord in being able to provide, like, you know, a stable household,

00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.880
 or, like, the lack of any of these is still quite protective, right?

00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:22.880
 And so we see how if you have more and more of these, and they often do kind of run together,

00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:27.880
 people not only are more prone to have mental illness, they're more prone to have obesity,

00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.880
 diabetes, cardiac events, to die early.

00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:39.880
 And so there's really that mind-body connection as well that is part of this kind of complex interplay.

00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:40.880
 Absolutely.

00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:47.880
 So, all right, the sin question, this is a big one, and I'm glad that all of you raised the both sides, right?

00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.880
 Like, people being sort of blamed for mental illness as a result of sin, and they acknowledge

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:59.880
 and, like, here, we are sinners and our sin has destructive effects on us and other people in the world.

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:05.880
 So I'm just going to read this quote, which is, I know, what you're not supposed to do with a PowerPoint,

00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:07.880
 but I think it's so good, but I'm going to just read it.

00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:15.880
 So this was written by three Christian psychologists who did kind of a comprehensive appraisal of this topic.

00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:19.880
 They were also my professors, so I have to give a plug for them over there.

00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:29.880
 So these various behavioral, emotional, and cognitive dimensions of human experience fail to perform as originally intended,

00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:37.880
 both reflecting our fallen condition and expressing that fallen condition through the decisions we make as incomplete and fallen persons.

00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:49.880
 Each of us struggles with unique expressions of our fallenness, and it should not be surprising that human mental health is often the stage on which many of us express the drama of our fallen future.

00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:56.880
 So, yeah, so I think the answer is it's complex and it's both, right?

00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:02.880
 Like, the post, since the fallen man, our world is not as it should be.

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:11.880
 So this fallenness is reflected in our bodies, our minds, our relationships with others, a lot of things that we deny individually cause, like,

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:13.880
 the second is talking about the ACEs study, right?

00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:16.880
 Ways that people have sinned against us.

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:23.880
 And usually it is all of the above, and our personal choices probably play some role, not some of the time, right?

00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:32.880
 So somebody might struggle with mental illness because they have a biological predisposition, which is fallenness of their body.

00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.880
 Maybe they've had a relational trauma, so somebody sinned against them.

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:42.880
 They've experienced, say, discrimination, so living in a fallen society and someone sinned against them.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.880
 And have chronic pain, so, you know, fallen biology.

00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:54.880
 And perhaps there is some role of personal choice there, too, of, like, choices to get help or not get help, you know?

00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:00.880
 So that plays a role, but it is like a slice of the pie that's a really big pie.

00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:06.880
 And I think one thing, a helpful thing to think about is even, like, mental illness versus physical illness.

00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:11.880
 I think oftentimes we're a lot more quick if somebody's struggling with depression to say,

00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.880
 Hey, maybe you need to look at this area of your life.

00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:21.880
 Whereas if somebody's struggling with cancer, diabetes, or asthma, we're not quick to do that, typically, right?

00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:28.880
 And certainly, even with physical health conditions, personal choice could play some sort of role some of the time.

00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:35.880
 But that isn't often our first response, both because that's usually not the most accurate and not the most compassionate.

00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:40.880
 And I think that, typically, that's a consideration with mental illness as well.

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:46.880
 So, again, certainly our own sin, our own choices can play a role.

00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:55.880
 So let's say I have anxiety, which I do, and I, you know, that's a result of genetic factors and things beyond my control.

00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:02.880
 But let's say I really deal with the sin of pride and I'm too proud to, like, talk about my struggles or get help.

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.880
 In that case, my sin might play a role in, like, the maintenance of that, but not why I struggle with it in the first place or not exactly why it's there.

00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:15.880
 And again, that's not true for everybody. That's just one small example.

00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:25.880
 And I think it's hard. I think it's hard as humans and as Christians to say, like, we might struggle with mental illness for reasons that are not our fault and that don't have anything to do with us.

00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.880
 Because I think it makes us aware of our own frailty, right, and vulnerability.

00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:35.880
 Like, we're not, if it's not up to our own good decisions or own choices, then we're not exempt from this experience.

00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.880
 And I think that that can be scary.

00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:44.880
 It's nice to kind of think, oh, if I do the right things and follow God and take care of my sin, that I won't struggle.

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.880
 And that really might not be true.

00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:51.880
 And I think that that can be a hard thing to recognize.

00:30:51.880 --> 00:31:02.880
 But I think that that brings us to, like, our right stance that we as humans should have before God of really trusting God to love us and sustain us,

00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.880
 whether or not we're struggling with mental illness, no matter what that looks like in a given time.

00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:14.880
 So I would say, I don't know what your experience is, but we've worked with lots and lots and lots of people over lots of years.

00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:23.880
 And I would say it's very rare, if ever, that I thought somebody's individual choices are, like, the only contributor to their distress.

00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:28.880
 I would say that's almost probably never happened. I don't know what your thoughts are.

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:34.880
 Yeah, I agree. I think that it is so complex, as Alina was saying, right?

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:37.880
 And kind of even in the example you shared before, right?

00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:40.880
 Like, there are idols of wanting to, like, make it in the architecture world.

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:48.880
 But then there are also these societal factors of, like, capitalism, like, you know, bosses exploiting labor, right?

00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.880
 And kind of using that that helps maintain it.

00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:55.880
 And so I think that there are always so many different, there are systemic things, right?

00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.880
 There are individual choices and things beyond our control that really contribute to our issues.

00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.880
 And Stephanie's going to bring a little scripture.

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.880
 Yeah. And y'all already jumped to this.

00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:16.880
 But I think that even if, as Alina was saying, right, it's so complex that we may not necessarily always be able to have, like, a one-to-one, like, this is the reason, right?

00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:25.880
 We know from a couple of examples of how Jesus responds in the Bible that it's not just due to sin, right?

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:29.880
 And so there are two passages I just wanted us to go over.

00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:31.880
 The first one is John 9.

00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.880
 So, as Jesus went along, he saw a man blind from birth.

00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:43.880
 His disciples asked him, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:50.880
 Neither this man nor his parents sinned, said Jesus, that this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:00.880
 And so here I just also want to pause and note that, like, the disciples are just like us, right, in terms of wanting to assign blame, wanting to figure out the cause.

00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:03.880
 And they're offering Jesus two choices.

00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:04.880
 Is it A or is it B?

00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:08.880
 And so often, as is Jesus' way, he said, neither, right?

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.880
 Like, these categories, like, I'm not even participating in this, right?

00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:22.880
 And so I think that is often helpful for us who are, like, trying to figure out the narrative, the cause, before we respond.

00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.880
 And Jesus says, you know, it's neither of these things that you're offering me.

00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.880
 It's that the works of God might be displayed.

00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:43.880
 And so that even when bad things happen, right, and we'll get into, like, the theology of suffering in a little bit, that God is at work and it is God's glory that everything happens.

00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:48.880
 And then the next example is from Luke 13.

00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:56.880
 So now there was some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:03.880
 Jesus answered, do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:05.880
 I tell you, no.

00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.880
 But unless you repent, you too all will perish.

00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.880
 Or those 18 who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them.

00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:17.880
 Do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?

00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:18.880
 I tell you, no.

00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:23.880
 But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:34.880
 So I think here Jesus is bringing up examples of, again, just kind of pointing out our desire inherently to want to, like, categorize and put people on a hierarchy, right?

00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:35.880
 Who's a worse sinner, right?

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:36.880
 Who's a worse sinner?

00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:37.880
 Who sinned more?

00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:39.880
 Who's more guilty, right?

00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:50.880
 And Jesus' response in all of this is to kind of redirect our attention to our own states of, have we repented?

00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.880
 Do we have life in Jesus?

00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:03.880
 And, you know, like, when we look at, you know, people who may have children who are struggling behaviorally, right?

00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:05.880
 Do we think, oh, it's because I'm a better parent?

00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:14.880
 Or is it more kind of this posture of saying, okay, well, here are still my limitations as a parent that Jesus is working through, right?

00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:20.880
 And so I think the posture in which we approach people who are struggling is different.

00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:30.880
 And I'm just curious, just checking, because I realize there might be a broad range of views represented even here in this room about the role of sin and mental illness, which is totally fine and good.

00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:40.880
 So I'm just curious what people think about this, if they're, yeah, are not sure about the sort of model of it playing a role but not being, like, the primary role.

00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.880
 Yeah, and just what people's reactions to that are.

00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:53.880
 Well, if you have other questions, we're going to say, yeah, Tyler.

00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:59.880
 I appreciate we're all naturally blame shifters, just like I leave the garden, shifting blame to somebody else.

00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.880
 It was a serpent and that was the woman that you gave to God.

00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.880
 And I think we are suffering.

00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:13.880
 I think ultimately we love to avoid the hard issue of, like, how to repent before God.

00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:15.880
 And that's a thing.

00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:17.880
 Jesus wants us to go there.

00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:21.880
 But ultimately it's not one size fits all again.

00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.880
 And God will be glorified.

00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:31.880
 And I think one of the first people in the Gospel, John at least, who confessed Christ, is like a man with a disability.

00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:37.880
 So it's like God has wonderful compassion for those who are suffering.

00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:46.880
 And the society has, like, said, like, you're, you know, you're not even worthy to be in communion to the rest of us.

00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:49.880
 But God has seen those people and has compassion on them.

00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:54.880
 So, yeah, I appreciate it.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:57.880
 Like you said, it's not one size fits all.

00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.880
 It's all the biases work on your own salvation.

00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:12.880
 I think one thing to note, too, I guess, with this issue of sin and mental health, is the two things can correspond in one person and one might not be causing the other.

00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.880
 So, you know, somebody, or I'll just use myself as an example.

00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.880
 So I do have OCD.

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.880
 And certainly I'm a sinner and I sin against my husband, who's sitting in that room.

00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.880
 And absolutely, undoubtedly, I need to confess and repent of my sin every day before God.

00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.880
 Does that help my OCD?

00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:31.880
 Maybe.

00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:32.880
 Not usually.

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.880
 You know, like, those things are not, it's not like they're not always related.

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:42.880
 However, I certainly have a need to repent before God.

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:50.880
 So just because we have mental illnesses and we don't need to repent, and just because we need to repent doesn't mean that our unconfession is always causing the mental illness.

00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:55.880
 So those two things can kind of correlate in that way.

00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:01.880
 So this is the second section on things we might commonly hear about why people struggle with mental illness.

00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:05.880
 And the second one is, you know, is my faith weak?

00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:19.880
 So we also wanted to kind of open it up for a discussion of, you know, are there things where you've seen mental illness attributed to spiritual weakness or needing to practice more spiritual disciplines?

00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:26.880
 And how does this, if we believe that, how does that translate into how we interact with those who are suffering?

00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:40.880
 This is like a more subtle, I think, narrative that you've seen to cause mental illness, but it is, it's really prominent in Christian communities.

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:57.880
 I think I've heard a lot, you need to work on your relationship with God first before you seek, like, counseling or therapy.

00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:04.880
 But what I've experienced recently is that good Christian counseling or therapy might be a way to help you do that.

00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:09.880
 It can be a tool in the toolbox that is part of that.

00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:25.880
 And having, just the fact of having some objective listener who is saturated in the Word, who's allowing their faith to be the guiding principle behind their treatment is extremely pivotal.

00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:31.880
 Yeah, so there's not like, oh, there's spiritual disciplines and there's mental health treatment.

00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:36.880
 Like, one can actually assist, the process of one can assist, the process of the other.

00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.880
 Yeah.

00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:48.880
 But certainly, like, seeking out help for a specific topic while ignoring the component of your relationship with God, that has not worked for me.

00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:54.880
 Trying to treat the symptom without the root cause, that has not been good.

00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:55.880
 Sure.

00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:56.880
 Yeah.

00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.880
 I appreciate how you found, yeah, these things can sort of tie together.

00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:00.880
 Yeah.

00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:07.880
 And the biopsychosocial, spiritual, or holistic people who, this is, yeah, really, they're interacting with all of us.

00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:08.880
 So, yeah, thanks for sharing.

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:09.880
 Right.

00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.880
 Like, so that they can be parallel processes, instead of like, something that one comes before the other.

00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:25.880
 And that's the thing, no one's explicitly said, oh, man, you're just, you're not, you're not right with God, and so you're seeking this help from the world.

00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:28.880
 But there's sort of this underlying, like, am I?

00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:29.880
 Like, you know?

00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:36.880
 And so, but no one will explicitly tell me, or for years, no one tell me, yes, you are, no, you're not.

00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.880
 It was just like, are you?

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:39.880
 I don't know.

00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:40.880
 I don't know.

00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:41.880
 Help me.

00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:42.880
 Yeah.

00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:43.880
 Yeah.

00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:44.880
 Yeah.

00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:51.880
 And I think these, sometimes it can be subtle, I think, or what we're saying, like, even, like, someone might say, oh, like, I'm really struggling with the diary.

00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.880
 And someone might say, oh, like, have you been praying enough?

00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.880
 And it is great to ask our friends about their prayer life.

00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:59.880
 Like, that is a good thing to ask and encourage.

00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:05.880
 But it does kind of imply at times, like, oh, you're anxious because you're not praying enough.

00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.880
 I think we just need to, we'll talk about, I need to be careful with that.

00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:18.880
 Just in the way, like, if somebody has, you know, a seizure disorder, we might not jump to asking them, oh, are you praying enough?

00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:19.880
 Right?

00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:21.880
 Like, we might not think of that as, like, the appropriate question.

00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:28.880
 So I think there's just a, there can be subtle, and granted, like, I'm sure I've said all of these things, and I'm like, ah, I shouldn't have said that.

00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.880
 Right?

00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:31.880
 Like, we all, it can be very well-intentioned.

00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:37.880
 Like, if somebody is depressed, like, oh, like, are you not trusting God's promises?

00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.880
 Like, maybe that should be a conversation at some point.

00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.880
 Like, we should all trust God's promises.

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:44.880
 But that may not be why that person's depressed.

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.880
 So it's kind of, I don't know.

00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:54.880
 I think sometimes, just by observation, this is hot.

00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:59.880
 So I experience postpartum depression, which is very common in women after chill-up birth.

00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:09.880
 And I think seeing other moms thriving and apparently having zero problems with childhood and the adjustment is like, okay, I'm clearly weak.

00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.880
 Like, I think so sometimes we see it by observation.

00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.880
 We come to church on Sunday and see happy, shiny people.

00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:15.880
 Yeah.

00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:19.880
 And think, well, what's wrong with my faith that I don't feel happy and shiny?

00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:20.880
 Yeah.

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:31.880
 And so I think some of, for me anyway, this is coming from observation of a 30,000-foot look on someone else's life, which may or may not be accurate.

00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.880
 If it's on social media, it's probably not.

00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:38.880
 If it's Sunday morning, it's probably just Sunday morning.

00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:46.880
 But for me, I think it's the pressure that spiritual weakness are meeting, I think it's internal.

00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:47.880
 It comes from inside.

00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:50.880
 I look out and I see, oh, shiny happy people.

00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:52.880
 And I think, what's wrong with me?

00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:53.880
 What's wrong with my faith?

00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:54.880
 Yeah.

00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:56.880
 That's why we should compare ourselves with them.

00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:57.880
 Very good.

00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:02.880
 There's lots to be fun about the role of social media and mental health.

00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:03.880
 So much.

00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:04.880
 There you go.

00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:05.880
 But I think you're right.

00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:21.880
 The disconnect between how we feel like we should feel and how we're actually feeling, right, is that gap, I think, can worsen how ashamed or how guilty we feel about struggling.

00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:33.880
 And so I think some, like, I was listening to a story, like somebody had struggled with depression and anxiety for a while, but it wasn't until after they became a Christian that they thought about suicide.

00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:38.880
 Because it was that sense of being in a culture where they're like, you know, Jesus saves, you should be happy.

00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:39.880
 Yeah.

00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.880
 And we'll talk more about spiritual bypassing a little later.

00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:55.880
 But, like, I think that, you know, when we're told, like, have hope, be, you know, be joyful, right, and we don't feel that way, that worsens, you know, our sense of, like, what's wrong with me?

00:43:55.880 --> 00:44:01.880
 And so I do think just to be really careful about ways that we talk about it.

00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:08.880
 I think that will have to do with expectations of society and other people.

00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.880
 I mean, we all want to be accepted and give a good impression, impression that we're okay, we're healthy.

00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:18.880
 If we're really not inside, we're going to try to fake it.

00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:30.880
 And I think that's a broader question of, like, you know, at church do we, like, whatever we're struggling with, right, because we're all struggling with something, do we feel okay being vulnerable and authentic at church, right?

00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.880
 Whether it's mental illness or some other health condition or a relationship thing.

00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:36.880
 Yeah.

00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.880
 Oh, Corbin, yeah.

00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.880
 I've heard addiction also reduced to weak faith.

00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:45.880
 Addiction can be very complicated.

00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:46.880
 Yeah.

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:50.880
 But I've heard people suggest if one of this person loved God more, they would have struggled with addiction.

00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.880
 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:58.880
 Yeah, addiction is a really important category, and we need a separate class for that category.

00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:00.880
 So, yeah, that's just to bring up a point.

00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:07.880
 So there's neurochemical, neurobiological, and psychological and social aspects of addiction, too, and that's important, yeah.

00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:11.880
 One of the problems that we have as church members is, like, we know our Bibles.

00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:18.880
 Like, you know, we're trying to apply our Bibles, and if we know them well enough, we know that there's a lot of complication to these issues.

00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:19.880
 Yeah.

00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:26.880
 Rather than, like, in psychiatry and psychology, a lot of church members, like, have bad reputations.

00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:28.880
 So it's not like I'm quick to say, you should go to a psychiatrist.

00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:30.880
 Even though they often leave, they probably should.

00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:35.880
 But I think a lot of church members just, like, I know my Bible, I want to help.

00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.880
 Like, there are small group leaders, you know, they want to apply the text, they want to pray for you.

00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:43.880
 And often, if they oversimplify, they do great harm.

00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.880
 Because the person feels enslaved.

00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:53.880
 They're, like, they, no matter what they do, you know, God must not really care for me.

00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:56.880
 Because I've prayed about this for many years.

00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:58.880
 And they're oversimplifying it.

00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:00.880
 And they have wrong expectations.

00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:01.880
 Right, right.

00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.880
 So I don't know what the answer is, but I think there's a...

00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:06.880
 Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.

00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:08.880
 Like, it is great to read our Bibles.

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:13.880
 And that can be a part, absolutely, that we should pursue our overall healing process.

00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:18.880
 And we want to, like, feel like God is all-knowing and we are not.

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:24.880
 But keep in mind just, like, the vast complexity of what contributes to struggle for an individual person.

00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.880
 So just a brief scripture question.

00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:29.880
 And you're all super familiar with this.

00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:34.880
 And it really helps me, like, when I think for my own self, like, ugh, why am I struggling with my mental health?

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:35.880
 What am I doing wrong?

00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:37.880
 I must not be faithful.

00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:44.880
 That Paul, and we don't know what Paul's thorn was, I don't think, at least we don't think of him.

00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:48.880
 And that he, like, God did not remove this from him, right?

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.880
 Like, he continued to struggle.

00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:55.880
 But then he's able to say, like, I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses.

00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:59.880
 And I think that the same can be true of mental illness.

00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:04.880
 Like, if this is something that's part of our experience, we can use that.

00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.880
 And God can use that for his glory, too.

00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:11.880
 We don't have to be ashamed of it as a part of our faith.

00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:13.880
 So this is an interesting quote.

00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:18.880
 So there's a former professor at Southern Baptist, someone named Eric Johnson,

00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.880
 who's really a scholar in theology and psychology.

00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.880
 So he came up with this concept, which was quoted in this book.

00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.880
 But scriptures teach about distinction between sin and weakness.

00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.880
 Sin, and I don't know how to pronounce the Greek word, so I'll just come over here,

00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:37.880
 refers to the changes in our nature and behavior for which we are responsible,

00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:41.880
 while weakness refers to those changes in our nature for which we are not responsible.

00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:48.880
 God responds to our sin with judgment tempered by grace, while his response to weakness is tenderness and compassion.

00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:50.880
 So, and it's tough, right?

00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:55.880
 Like, looking at someone else's life, we might not know what is sin and what is weakness, right?

00:47:55.880 --> 00:48:02.880
 Like, you'd have to really, really know a person in very in-depth to know that.

00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:08.880
 And certainly there's a place to think about those too, but I think it's worth just having a lot of humility,

00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.880
 considering what is the one sin and what's the weakness.

00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:13.880
 Anything you'd add?

00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:14.880
 Oh, yeah.

00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:20.880
 I just want to, I think, just as, because you guys were kind of touching on even like,

00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:22.880
 how do we respond to friends?

00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:29.880
 And I think even this thought about sin and weakness, I think related to what Kim was saying about,

00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.880
 like, we're not good with greed.

00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:32.880
 Yeah.

00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:34.880
 I think there's something when I'm responding to a friend that it feels,

00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.880
 I want to be helpful and I want to like, fix it.

00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:45.880
 And so, like, if what we know is Bible, then like, this is like a way to try to fix rather than sit in the difficult place,

00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.880
 with tenderness and compassion, which can be vulnerable.

00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:57.880
 And not have a right answer, not have any answer, and just kind of sit in the middle of the in-between.

00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:03.880
 And I feel like that's harder for me, because as a friend or family member, like, I just want to make it better.

00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:05.880
 I just like, want someone to not suffer.

00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:12.880
 But then the ways that that actually can turn the person's experience, like, is this my sin, right?

00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:17.880
 Right, my responsibility to actually take something rather than, yes.

00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:18.880
 Yeah.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:25.880
 I think for sure it's a messier process when we don't know, like, what the answer is, right?

00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:31.880
 And I think it's helpful, too, to think about, you know, our desire to fix it is really to alleviate our distress,

00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:33.880
 not alleviate their distress, right?

00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.880
 So this is our problem, not what, you know, not their problem.

00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.880
 And so I think just kind of understanding where that motivation is coming from can be really helpful.

00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:50.880
 I think, too, like, often the person coming to comfort or counsel is someone who is coming from a place of strength,

00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:56.880
 a place where I feel like I'm pretty solid, maybe I've never even experienced this thing that they've been through.

00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:59.880
 And so we're completely out of our depth.

00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:11.880
 We're out of our element, and, yeah, we're assuming that we're good enough, I'm scholars, to, yeah, bring some kind of healing to the situation when maybe it's just fine.

00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:12.880
 Yeah.

00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:19.880
 Yeah, that reminds me, I had written down a Spurgeon quote who struggled with depression for much of his life.

00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:23.880
 And so just remembering that when we want to judge others, he writes,

00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:31.880
 There are a great many of you who appear to have a large stock of faith, but it is only because you're in very good health and your business is prospering.

00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:39.880
 If you happen to get a disordered liver or your business should fail, I should not be surprised if nine parts out of ten of your wonderful faith should evaporate.

00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.880
 So I think that's a great thing.

00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:46.880
 I mean, absolutely, right?

00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:55.880
 Like, just being mindful of how much of our faith is dependent on circumstances, and God, by his grace, doesn't give us more than we can handle,

00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:04.880
 but also why it is so important to really be walking with people and not judging where they're at if we haven't, you know, gone through that ourselves.

00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:15.880
 And we're going to have a whole class section on how the church ought to respond or might respond for those who struggle with mental illness in a few weeks.

00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:16.880
 So stay tuned.

00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:17.880
 Stay tuned, yeah.

00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:19.880
 Do you want to move on to the...

00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:20.880
 Yeah, let's...

00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:21.880
 Okay.

00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:23.880
 This one is pretty rich topic, so...

00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:24.880
 Yeah.

00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:25.880
 All right.

00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:32.880
 So kind of in the interest of time, because we have seven minutes left, the third kind of most common thing that we've heard is, you know,

00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:35.880
 what about the role of spiritual warfare?

00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:45.880
 And so, you know, maybe not at this church, maybe at other churches, you know, or through friends, right, you've seen mental illness attributed to demonic activity.

00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:53.880
 And just thinking about, like, again, if you think mental illness is related to demon possession or the work of the devil only,

00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:58.880
 how does this affect how we interact with those who suffer from mental illness?

00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:02.880
 Yeah.

00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:03.880
 Sure.

00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.880
 So, again, this is kind of our theme.

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:08.880
 It's complex, and it could be both ways.

00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:13.880
 So, spiritual warfare, like, we know that Satan is the enemy of our souls, and it's...

00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:16.880
 Spiritual warfare is alive and active in the world.

00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:17.880
 And that is...

00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:23.880
 That can be one factor among many reasons that, you know, are sort of hurting...

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.880
 Making somebody discouraged or burdened.

00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:33.880
 But we should be really careful, cautious, and have a lot of nuance about making attributions to spiritual warfare.

00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:40.880
 Similar to, like, if somebody started with a seizure disorder, that's not usually what I hear is the first response of, like,

00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.880
 oh, they must, you know, there must be a demonic, you know, activity.

00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:51.880
 Because that would understandably make the person feel very pathologized and very, like, alone and sort of distanced.

00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:56.880
 And I think we need to be just as careful when it comes to depression, anxiety, psychosis.

00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:58.880
 Psychosis can be a tricky one, right?

00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:05.880
 Sometimes people ask about that one because the presentation might appear to be...

00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.880
 Yeah, we kind of don't understand what somebody's thinking or acting or talking in certain ways.

00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.880
 But we need to be really just as careful.

00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.880
 So...

00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:25.880
 And I think one way I think about it is Satan being the enemy of our souls can certainly use any number of things to discourage and burden us.

00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.880
 Our traumas, our attachments, our grief.

00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:34.880
 Um, Satan can maybe capitalize on our genetic predisposition to kind of further discourage us.

00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:38.880
 That doesn't mean that our depression is related to demonic oppression, right?

00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:44.880
 This is how, like, Satan's work in sort of the fallen world and his work to discourage us.

00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.880
 Um, but we also think part of what...

00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:56.880
 You're speaking of spiritual warfare, part of what can really bring light is by really talking about our mental health concerns and seeking support and opening it up.

00:53:56.880 --> 00:54:03.880
 And so, one thing I observe a lot is, you know, just people feel, like, so ashamed.

00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:13.880
 And if there's a sense of, like, I'm ill because I've obscured warfare, that might contribute to more isolation, more shame, and then more discouragement.

00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:15.880
 So, yeah.

00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:16.880
 Um...

00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:18.880
 And just to add on to what Alina was saying, right?

00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:25.880
 Like, I think, uh, um, about how Satan can use pre-existing things to discourage us, right?

00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:30.880
 When we think about, like, bacteria and viruses, they're everywhere in the environment.

00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.880
 But where it causes disease might be where you have a cut, right?

00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:35.880
 Or you have a physical opening.

00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:50.880
 So I think in the same way, you know, there is spiritual activity at work, but there may also be kind of an entry into, like, our specific experiences through whatever emotional wounds we may have.

00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:55.880
 Um, I think just kind of, you know, it's complex, right, is, like, kind of the big takeaway.

00:54:55.880 --> 00:55:07.880
 And I think also, um, how, you know, thinking about just the ways we treat people with physical illness, how often we have so much more compassion for that versus mental illness, right?

00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:12.880
 And so, um, you know, when we think about, well, was Satan involved, right?

00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:27.800
 And I, and I, um, heard this thing about, you know, like, in Job, right, um, part of Satan's attack on Job was to afflict him with sores and boils, right?

00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:33.880
 The week, when we see people with acne or we see people with rashes, we're not like, oh, my gosh, that's Satan attacking you, right?

00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:38.480
 And so just even thinking about, like, how we respond to people with physical illnesses.

00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:43.619
 And then conversely, right, that physical illnesses still have a spiritual component, right?

00:55:43.740 --> 00:55:53.460
 That, you know, trusting that the Lord is going to wake you up the next morning, even though you have really high blood pressure, or trusting that the Lord will sustain you through chemo, right?

00:55:53.539 --> 00:55:56.440
 Those, those still require a relationship with God, right?

00:55:56.460 --> 00:56:04.579
 It's not, like, you know, just because you're getting medical treatment doesn't mean it's independent of how, um, like, the words work in your life.

00:56:04.579 --> 00:56:15.059
 Um, so, okay, so we brought up this Mark 9 passage, um, and I just want to go through it kind of quickly.

00:56:15.319 --> 00:56:20.840
 Uh, when Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked, oh, wait, hold on.

00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:31.840
 Did it, okay, no, there's more, there's more to this, which is basically that, um, this is in Mark 9, where there's a boy, um, who the father says, you know,

00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.579
 Teacher, I brought you my son who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech.

00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:38.360
 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground.

00:56:38.780 --> 00:56:42.680
 He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid.

00:56:42.860 --> 00:56:45.300
 I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.

00:56:46.300 --> 00:56:50.539
 Um, Jesus responds, you unbelieving generation, how long shall I stay with you?

00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:52.380
 How long shall I put up with you?

00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:57.440
 Um, and then Jesus asked the boy's father, how long has he been like this?

00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:02.559
 Um, from childhood, it has often thrown him into the fire or water to kill him.

00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:05.079
 But if you can't do anything, take pity on us and help us.

00:57:05.740 --> 00:57:09.079
 Everyone is, everything is possible for the one who believes, said Jesus.

00:57:10.019 --> 00:57:14.440
 Immediately, the boy's father exclaimed, I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief.

00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:21.659
 Um, and then Jesus' response is to say, you deafened, you'd spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.

00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:26.279
 Um, the spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came up.

00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:30.359
 And then the disciples asked him privately, why can't we drive that out?

00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:32.819
 And Jesus responds, this can only come out by prayer.

00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:39.599
 So here we kind of see an example of something that, like, kind of in modern days, we're like, this very much sounds like a seizure, right?

00:57:39.619 --> 00:57:47.000
 But again, so like Elena's point, there's, you know, we don't treat epilepsy as, as though it were demon possession, right?

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:56.860
 And there's another verse in the, um, in Matthew where the Bible differentiates between illness and demon possession.

00:57:56.860 --> 00:58:07.739
 So they're recognizing, so Matthew 4, 24 says, all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, he healed them.

00:58:07.739 --> 00:58:11.839
 Um, so not every seizure, right, is a demon possession.

00:58:12.319 --> 00:58:17.339
 And, um, in the same way, not every mental illness is a demon possession.

00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:29.039
 Um, and I think it's important also to differentiate between, like, spiritual warfare, right, which is something that we, um, all kind of undergo, and versus demonic possession.

00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:37.679
 Um, you know, Ephesians 6 says, our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, authorities, against the powers of this dark world.

00:58:37.739 --> 00:58:40.439
 And against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

00:58:40.919 --> 00:58:43.339
 And the antidote to that is the full armor of God.

00:58:43.879 --> 00:58:56.179
 Um, and in this example with Mark 9, um, I think if we think something, you know, I, I mean, so I, I think we're saying, you know, be careful, not, don't call mental illness just demon possession.

00:58:56.179 --> 00:59:02.459
 But even if you think it is demon possession, right, like, I think, are we, you know, what is our response to that person?

00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:05.959
 And Jesus' healing is kind of low key, right?

00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:10.760
 It's like, it's by prayer, and he just says a statement, and, you know, it's, and the demon comes out, right?

00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:17.300
 So it's not this, like, super mysterious, like, only this, you know, like, only an exorcist can, like, deal with this, right?

00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:26.500
 It's like, we as Christians all have power to pray and to, um, channel, like, the work of the Holy Spirit, right?

00:59:26.500 --> 00:59:32.179
 And so, you know, I think we're saying, be careful about kind of diagnosing demon possession.

00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:35.360
 But even if you think it is, you can still pray for the person, right?

00:59:35.420 --> 00:59:39.119
 And it's not this, like, you know, ritualistic thing.

00:59:39.179 --> 00:59:40.119
 It's just, it's prayer.

00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:42.880
 And we all, as Christians, are able to do that.

00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:49.119
 And so I think that's just, um, kind of the main thing we would say about demon possession and spiritual warfare.

00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:51.739
 Um, and kind of as well.

00:59:52.659 --> 00:59:55.099
 And we'll have a Q&A time.

00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.859
 So just, like, and I realize people may need to go pick up their kids or kind of get ready.

00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:01.579
 Although we will stay for a while so we can have Q&A.

01:00:01.659 --> 01:00:10.079
 But I just want to read this quote to finish because I think that this also brings hope to, like, how do we see God's work with improving our mental health?

01:00:10.659 --> 01:00:13.779
 Um, our mental health and well-being are not what God intends for us.

01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:16.059
 They are expressions of our fallenness.

01:00:16.059 --> 01:00:17.940
 Yet Christians hold out hope.

01:00:18.099 --> 01:00:20.159
 God is at work for redeeming these experiences.

01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:27.759
 And that we glimpse something of a future glory with him when we see gains made in our experiences of mental health and well-being.

01:00:28.139 --> 01:00:44.400
 So by pursuing healing and wholeness ourselves and by helping our friends and our family members pursue healing and wholeness with God psychologically, emotionally, that's, yeah, that's, we're glimpsing something of future glory with that.

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:44.500
 Um.

01:00:46.059 --> 01:00:48.099
 So it's 10.03.

01:00:48.380 --> 01:00:55.380
 So if anybody kind of needs to leave, you know, as a good pausing point, I'm going to stick around for any questions for a bit.

01:00:58.940 --> 01:01:01.259
 Any thoughts or disagreements?

01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:02.159
 Disagreements, yeah.

01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:02.219
 Yeah.

01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:21.139
 And the spiritual warfare topic is a really rich one that we are not specifically, like, you know, as psychologists and psychiatrists, we don't, like, we're not trained in spiritual warfare, so we don't plan to have, like, you know, authority about that.

01:01:21.139 --> 01:01:25.859
 And so, you know, there's rich, but there's rich things to kind of think about that.

01:01:26.119 --> 01:01:29.059
 And, yeah, so, you know, but we would love to question about anything.

01:01:29.059 --> 01:01:29.359
 Yeah.

01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:29.480
 Yeah.

01:01:31.680 --> 01:01:32.480
 Yeah.

01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:48.980
 My father was, um, my father had epilepsy due to forceps at birth, so brain trauma at birth, um, and he grew up in the 50s and 60s where it was very common to attribute epilepsy to demonic oppression.

01:01:48.980 --> 01:01:53.460
 So, um, we're not that far away from him.

01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:58.059
 Um, and that was sort of carte blanche society.

01:01:58.260 --> 01:02:00.679
 I don't think that was specifically within the church.

01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:17.240
 Um, uh, and it drove him to having his left and right hemisphere separate to try to stop the, because he was socially ostracized to a point where he literally ran away from home, signed his life away to a doctor in Toronto that separated his hemisphere.

01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:25.679
 So, um, which again caused brain trauma, which caused all kinds of antisocial, um, mental illness.

01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:28.419
 Um, and I don't, yeah.

01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:43.079
 So, it is a complex topic, and I feel like there are times when even, like, so the 50s and 60s, you know, and then fast forward to today.

01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:56.019
 Like, I'd love to hear your comments on, like, how medicine has exploded during that time, and now there are preventative or curative, um, things for epilepsy.

01:02:56.340 --> 01:03:03.340
 And just, just kind of, like, I think at times we, we don't have patience for the process.

01:03:03.340 --> 01:03:08.100
 Like, that was a pretty extreme solution for that particular thing.

01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:18.920
 And even the trauma that we experienced as children for some of the antisocial, uh, volatile, um, kind of catastrophic brain trauma that he had.

01:03:19.180 --> 01:03:21.440
 We all contributed to mental illness.

01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:25.039
 So, like, one of my brothers doesn't have children because he's afraid it's in him.

01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:41.519
 Like, so, and I think there's a level of compassion and a level of waiting because I think there are, God in his sovereignty and in common grace allows medicine to, you know, help in some circumstances.

01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:48.579
 Um, and so I'd love to hear your thoughts on just, like, what we think today will probably be different 10 years from now.

01:03:48.699 --> 01:03:52.079
 And, like, there's this sense that we want to have absolutes.

01:03:52.179 --> 01:04:00.719
 We want to have, um, but there's, there's growing knowledge that's happening because we aren't, we aren't God.

01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.500
 Like, we aren't sovereign.

01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:09.400
 So I'd love to hear your thoughts on just how medicine changes, how we understand the human brain especially.

01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:11.579
 Because the brain is, you don't understand.

01:04:11.660 --> 01:04:12.400
 Right, right, right.

01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:14.519
 Um, yeah.

01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:22.420
 I mean, I, I also, like, the, I wanted to point out, like, this part of your story, right, where, like, your brother is so affected by his experience, right?

01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:27.059
 And I think, um, this idea of, like, intergenerational trauma, right?

01:04:27.059 --> 01:04:31.000
 Of how things, you know, like, legacies get passed on, right?

01:04:31.180 --> 01:04:35.660
 Um, it's so important to also understand, like, how did this person come to be, right?

01:04:35.659 --> 01:04:45.579
 And we see in the, in the Bible, like, God acknowledges, like, you know, and the sins of, and not that it's a sin, but that there are consequences, you know, will get passed on down the generations.

01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:54.819
 And, you know, God calls himself the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, like, acknowledging that there's kind of, like, you know, influences that are beyond our control.

01:04:54.820 --> 01:05:03.400
 Um, I would say, like, I think medications, when used appropriately, are, are really good, right?

01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:14.080
 Um, and for sure, like, in the 1970s, like, before antidepressants, antipsychotics came out, right, people would kind of get institutionalized, spend, like, decades in institutions.

01:05:14.079 --> 01:05:25.940
 Um, and as we've come to understand, like, bits and pieces of how the brain works, um, neurotransmitters, neural circuitry, epigenetics, right?

01:05:25.940 --> 01:05:40.239
 Um, that we have better tools for how to help people move out of, um, institutions and hopefully to support them in, um, yeah, like, out in the community.

01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:44.539
 I think also that, like, community support is so important, right?

01:05:44.619 --> 01:05:56.859
 And, um, you know, even in places that are, maybe don't have as much access to medication, right, but have strong social networks and strong family supports, the outcomes for people who have, like, schizophrenia and psychosis tend to be better.

01:05:57.359 --> 01:05:59.859
 Um, so it's, you know, I think medication plays a role.

01:05:59.959 --> 01:06:09.199
 I don't think it's, like, the only thing, but it certainly helps a big subset of people be able to move out of, um, like, institutionalized care for the rest of their life.

01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:25.279
 I think that being said, I think that, um, some, like, sometimes, I mean, most of the time, like, what I will say is that, like, medications are not, kind of, like, this cure-all, like, boom, your depression is gone, right?

01:06:25.319 --> 01:06:26.359
 Like, and I wish it were.

01:06:27.099 --> 01:06:32.500
 And I think it's, like, a bigger question of, you know, in medicine, we don't really heal people, right?

01:06:32.500 --> 01:06:39.159
 We kind of manage their disease, like, even, you know, unless it's, like, a strep throat, and even that can have long-term consequences, right?

01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:44.940
 But most of medicine is really about ameliorating the effects and helping people live longer lives.

01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:49.079
 I mean, like, live flourishing lives, like, diabetes, cardiovascular stuff, right?

01:06:49.139 --> 01:06:54.659
 And so just kind of even our expectations of what medicine should be able to do are really complex.

01:06:54.659 --> 01:07:00.920
 Um, but there is still, like, people call it, like, the final frontier of medicine, right, just because the brain is so complex.

01:07:01.420 --> 01:07:15.440
 Uh, and there are still things that we use from, like, the 1970s, like, um, ECT, electroconvulsive therapy, that we're still using for treatment refractory depression and, and, um, mood disorders and that kind of thing.

01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:20.900
 So there's still, it's, like, an area very, um, ripe for research.

01:07:21.380 --> 01:07:26.220
 Um, and there are, like, exciting medications that are coming out every now and then.

01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:42.019
 I am also just kind of struck by, um, like, the former director of the NIMH was, like, who's, who spent his whole career, like, directing this research institute about, um, you know, trying to develop, like, the genetic, like, trying to figure out, like, the genetics and the mechanisms of mental illness.

01:07:42.019 --> 01:07:54.199
 Um, he recalls an incident where a family member was, like, you know, you're trying to, um, figure out, like, the chemistry of the wallpaper and our house is burning down, right?

01:07:54.300 --> 01:07:59.079
 And so I think that it's also, you know, people are in crisis and we use the tools we have, right?

01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:01.940
 And I think that hopefully there will be enhances in medication.

01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:11.780
 But I think, like, you know, it's, it kind of, it's, like, it depends on the person and I kind of have a little bit of, like, um, caution with using them.

01:08:12.139 --> 01:08:12.280
 Yeah.

01:08:14.119 --> 01:08:17.619
 I think there are a couple people who raised their hands in the back.

01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:18.579
 I don't know if we missed them.

01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:20.380
 Or maybe not.

01:08:20.619 --> 01:08:20.819
 Okay.

01:08:21.940 --> 01:08:22.199
 Uh-huh.

01:08:23.119 --> 01:08:23.840
 I know.

01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:27.920
 So I worked in a juvenile detention correctional center for 16 years.

01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:28.380
 Uh-huh.

01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:32.239
 And I took care of licensing and regulations for the SIPP facility.

01:08:32.440 --> 01:08:32.579
 Uh-huh.

01:08:32.579 --> 01:08:36.940
 Let all the jobs of the kids that came in, made sure they were legally being detained.

01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:42.319
 And I'd say 90% of those kids came from abusive backgrounds and that's why they were there.

01:08:42.480 --> 01:08:42.640
 Yep.

01:08:42.860 --> 01:08:43.020
 Yep.

01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:51.579
 And when we finally, it was in the state of West Virginia, finally got the good doctor in to the facility that was there on a daily basis.

01:08:51.579 --> 01:08:54.760
 And I realized that most of those kids came in over-medicated.

01:08:54.939 --> 01:08:55.359
 Mm-hmm.

01:08:55.359 --> 01:09:03.119
 Just to dumb them down and gnaw them instead of having the real issues, you know, addressed.

01:09:03.300 --> 01:09:03.439
 Yeah.

01:09:03.699 --> 01:09:12.019
 And then the state finally ended up starting focusing more on rehabilitation and getting some colleges in every week.

01:09:12.180 --> 01:09:14.199
 Getting counselors in every week.

01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:14.640
 Yep, yep, yep.

01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:19.559
 And then I was, you were able to see, finally, some improvement in these kids.

01:09:19.560 --> 01:09:30.760
 But it took quite a while from when I first started to when I ended up leaving to see people really addressing the causes why these kids acted the way they did.

01:09:31.480 --> 01:09:33.800
 Yeah, that's such an important point.

01:09:33.800 --> 01:09:40.260
 And I think, like, you know, I do feel like medications can be used wisely and to good effect, right?

01:09:40.360 --> 01:09:47.279
 And kind of the analogy I often give is, you know, like if you're drowning, right?

01:09:47.420 --> 01:09:50.159
 Like, yes, you should learn how to swim.

01:09:50.300 --> 01:09:51.360
 You should learn the skills.

01:09:51.739 --> 01:09:55.880
 But also if you can't, like, if you, like, you just kind of need to get your head above water, right?

01:09:55.880 --> 01:10:02.420
 And so sometimes medications help us have a little bit more mental space to make use of the therapy that we're learning.

01:10:02.940 --> 01:10:09.159
 But that being said, I do think, like, meds and therapy are definitely kind of the gold standard, right?

01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:18.699
 But I think to your point of, like, in institutions and kind of underfunded areas that we, and this is like a societal thing, right?

01:10:18.739 --> 01:10:21.380
 It's like, what does insurance reimburse for?

01:10:21.559 --> 01:10:27.439
 And how do you deal with trauma, which is such, like, a root complex thing?

01:10:27.500 --> 01:10:32.539
 And are we just trying to support them, like, through this crisis moment with the hope that they will come off the medication?

01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:33.079
 Right?

01:10:33.099 --> 01:10:34.260
 So lots of, like, different answers.

01:10:34.300 --> 01:10:35.720
 And I could probably talk about that for a while.

01:10:35.720 --> 01:10:46.680
 But I think it's also, it is reflective of, like, societal brokenness, right, that we don't value therapy, that we're not reimbursing it so that people end up having a very, like, broken system to navigate for finding mental health care.

01:10:49.079 --> 01:11:03.199
 How do you weigh when you see a patient, acknowledging patients, fallenness of the world, where you start to be concerned that we have not seen any progress, and we've been meeting together for, like, three, four, five years now,

01:11:03.199 --> 01:11:10.579
 where you're starting to say, okay, maybe, I don't know, what are some of the red flags where you're starting to ask those questions?

01:11:11.220 --> 01:11:12.319
 Is it the symptoms?

01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:14.539
 How do you weigh that?

01:11:14.939 --> 01:11:19.479
 Knowing that it's going to require patients, and there's complicated issues here.

01:11:20.639 --> 01:11:25.539
 Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good question and such a complicated question.

01:11:25.539 --> 01:11:30.420
 The nature of every mental health condition is different.

01:11:31.019 --> 01:11:38.340
 So, you know, it would be different if that somebody came in with, like, a relationship concern.

01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:44.359
 Like, maybe I'm struggling in my marriage, and after three, four, five years, haven't made progress.

01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:47.619
 I might wonder, like, okay, like, what's happening?

01:11:47.619 --> 01:12:02.599
 I would expect there to be maybe not all the problems solved, but, you know, we kind of understand how to work with this or work through this, and, you know, that would be a different situation than a lot of times, like, depression, OCD, bipolar disorder, some forms of anxiety.

01:12:02.599 --> 01:12:12.439
 Just the nature of them is chronic, and they ebb and flow chronically for no reason of the person's personal agency.

01:12:12.439 --> 01:12:27.460
 So there's just kind of an ongoing sort of lifelong concern, and in that case, it's, like, there may be progress in understanding one's relationship to that diagnosis and that illness and how to live a flourishing life in the midst of that.

01:12:27.819 --> 01:12:35.239
 The symptoms themselves may evade for a time and then come back, and then evade and come back for no reason beyond the person's biology.

01:12:35.519 --> 01:12:36.960
 So the nature of those is chronic.

01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:42.739
 So there, I think, yeah, I think it kind of depends on every one.

01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:46.760
 Oftentimes, I look at, like, oh, what is, what about this treatment isn't working?

01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:48.300
 Like, is this therapy?

01:12:48.899 --> 01:12:57.500
 So I think usually for myself, you know, at times there can be concerns about people's motivation, like, oh, I'm kind of coming to therapy.

01:12:57.859 --> 01:13:00.380
 I'm not really motivated to make the changes outside of therapy.

01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:01.659
 That can happen sometimes.

01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:05.140
 Oftentimes, I'm thinking about myself, like, what am I missing?

01:13:05.140 --> 01:13:06.560
 Is there an underlying trauma?

01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:09.600
 Is there an underlying neurodevelopmental disorder?

01:13:09.860 --> 01:13:11.220
 Is there an underlying personality disorder?

01:13:11.420 --> 01:13:16.720
 Is there, you know, there's many different mental health factors that I might have had a blind spot to or might miss?

01:13:17.260 --> 01:13:18.920
 Also, I'd say people's environment.

01:13:19.260 --> 01:13:25.000
 Like, if coming to therapy and you're, you know, getting great therapy support and medication support,

01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:31.359
 but if you're still in an abusive situation, your mental health might not improve that much, you know,

01:13:31.399 --> 01:13:38.899
 in the case of, like, or if you're still experiencing discrimination on a daily basis, that can have such deleterious effects on mental health.

01:13:38.899 --> 01:13:42.960
 So I think it's very complicated and can be a person's motivation or choices,

01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:49.000
 and often can be sort of environment or just, like, kind of a current state mental health.

01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:50.239
 But anything you'd add to that?

01:13:51.000 --> 01:13:56.100
 Yeah, like, with your question, like, if somebody's not making progress, what do we think of,

01:13:56.100 --> 01:13:58.220
 or, like, how do we approach that with somebody?

01:13:59.020 --> 01:14:00.319
 Yeah, how do you approach it?

01:14:01.539 --> 01:14:06.640
 Like, I'd say one side, we're just going to plot on because I know this might take 10 years,

01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:15.520
 or versus other side where you're like, I have to stop counseling you because you're not showing progress.

01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:16.180
 I'm expecting.

01:14:17.020 --> 01:14:22.920
 So maybe you're, for whatever reason, making that decision of, like, this actually isn't helping you at all.

01:14:23.280 --> 01:14:27.800
 And I need to, you need to go somewhere else that might be able to help you more than I can.

01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:30.200
 Yeah.

01:14:30.440 --> 01:14:36.280
 So I think to Elena's point, right, that there are people who maybe, like, their symptoms kind of get better, get worse, right,

01:14:36.279 --> 01:14:42.699
 and there's kind of, like, an up and down, I think, like, it is worth having a conversation about, like, you know,

01:14:42.699 --> 01:14:48.239
 it feels like you've been stuck for a very long time, and, you know, we've been working together,

01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:50.819
 and it doesn't sound like things are getting better.

01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:52.579
 Like, what do you think about that, right?

01:14:52.659 --> 01:14:57.939
 So it's more, like, kind of the less about, like, you're not making progress because everybody's progress is different,

01:14:58.039 --> 01:15:03.479
 and we're just, like, well, let's bring this into the room and talk about, like, you know,

01:15:03.479 --> 01:15:05.559
 are there things we're not talking about that we should be?

01:15:05.779 --> 01:15:06.819
 You're feeling stuck.

01:15:07.779 --> 01:15:12.259
 You know, you're probably feeling angry at me for not helping you in the ways that you want me to, right?

01:15:12.339 --> 01:15:17.399
 And, like, kind of just in an open-ended way asking what that's about, basically.

01:15:19.299 --> 01:15:24.739
 I think also, too, like, we were just kind of talking on the way here about this idea of, like, repetition compulsion

01:15:24.739 --> 01:15:33.599
 that we have in psychology, which is basically, like, kind of by nature we reenact and do the same things over and over, right?

01:15:33.599 --> 01:15:38.619
 So you see, like, somebody keeps entering abusive relationships, and you're like, well, why do you keep doing this, right?

01:15:38.659 --> 01:15:43.300
 You should just, like, figure out it's not a good relationship, but it's like there's something about probably their past trauma

01:15:43.300 --> 01:15:50.099
 that is seeking it out and doing it over and over again in order to, like, feel like they can master it.

01:15:50.100 --> 01:15:55.900
 It's not helpful for them necessarily from, like, a third party, but it's doing something for them, right?

01:15:56.020 --> 01:16:01.600
 And so I think that's, you know, there are many aspects of various mental illness where, like, yeah,

01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:07.940
 it's not the most helpful thing for them longer term, but it's serving a function in the short term.

01:16:08.020 --> 01:16:15.140
 And so how do we understand what it's doing, and can we try to figure out, like, a way that's a little bit more helpful for that person?

01:16:15.140 --> 01:16:15.640
 Yeah.

01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:21.000
 I think it's also, this is a little different, but help, even help for the church to know,

01:16:21.780 --> 01:16:26.240
 and I think oftentimes, especially even in, like, how we share testaments and we're about that in church,

01:16:26.500 --> 01:16:31.920
 we tend to think of things like past tense, like, I struggled with this, and now it's over, and I'm kind of moved on.

01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.940
 I'm like, I wish I could say that, like, of how I'd like to share testimony.

01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:38.740
 With mental illness, that, it doesn't usually work that way.

01:16:38.739 --> 01:16:44.880
 And, you know, some forms of kind of shorter term depression or anxiety people can recover from and move on,

01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:49.199
 and that can be part of their testimony of, like, that was in the past, and, you know, God healed me.

01:16:49.599 --> 01:16:52.899
 For most people, that's probably not the case with mental illness,

01:16:52.979 --> 01:16:59.880
 because it's most, many forms of mental illness is not something that somebody might ever sort of get over,

01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:02.500
 but it's something that can be managed and God can use.

01:17:03.380 --> 01:17:07.559
 But even kind of thinking of our, so this is a little outside the counseling room to the church,

01:17:07.560 --> 01:17:10.180
 like, if somebody deals with bipolar disorder, OCD,

01:17:10.740 --> 01:17:15.360
 that person's still going to need to be asked about that and supported about that in five years and ten years,

01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:21.360
 and isn't going to be something like, oh, okay, like, this was a hard one, and we're good, you know?

01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:24.400
 And so I think that makes it harder for the church, too,

01:17:24.480 --> 01:17:29.080
 because, like, we're used to struggles where it's like, okay, this is an acute moment,

01:17:29.160 --> 01:17:31.740
 we all sit around, come alongside, and now you're better.

01:17:31.739 --> 01:17:37.939
 Whereas, like, you know, that's not the case for most of us.

01:17:38.019 --> 01:17:41.760
 And so I think it can be confusing to know, like, oh, what does it mean that, like,

01:17:42.099 --> 01:17:46.760
 you talked about this last week, and now you're talking about it this week, like, and if I, you know?

01:17:46.819 --> 01:17:51.119
 So, but, like, that's just the complexity and the nature of many forms of it.

01:17:51.219 --> 01:17:56.719
 So it gets, I think it's difficult for some of us to know how to support in a way.

01:17:56.720 --> 01:17:57.159
 Yeah.

01:17:57.880 --> 01:17:58.800
 Oh, good questions.

01:17:59.060 --> 01:17:59.900
 Yeah, thank you.

01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:04.079
 So I think next week we're going to continue talking about kind of, like, church culture

01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:05.560
 that contributes to stigma.

01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:10.600
 We'll kind of be, we're going to smush it all into today, and then we're like, no,

01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:13.440
 I think, like, this kind of deserves, like, spacing it out a little bit.

01:18:14.039 --> 01:18:17.780
 But just kind of what ways that, you know, us being as Christians,

01:18:17.900 --> 01:18:20.119
 even though it does give us a hope in a community, right,

01:18:20.320 --> 01:18:24.500
 are there paradoxically ways that, like, it makes it harder to talk about mental illness?

01:18:24.500 --> 01:18:24.899
 Yes.

01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:29.439
 And then if nothing, if you take nothing else away, I hope if you come here

01:18:29.439 --> 01:18:33.579
 and you're struggling or somebody's struggling, if you take away nothing else,

01:18:33.659 --> 01:18:34.720
 just that you're not alone.

01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:39.319
 Like, there are so many people, Christians, who are dealing with mental illness

01:18:39.319 --> 01:18:42.979
 in this church and other churches who are teaching this class.

01:18:43.159 --> 01:18:46.640
 You know, so, like, there's a lot of, it's a common experience,

01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:48.180
 and there's space to talk about it.

01:18:48.180 --> 01:18:56.100
 And so, yeah, feel free to just, yeah, email either of us,

01:18:56.100 --> 01:18:57.900
 or email Michelle if she can get us in touch with us,

01:18:57.900 --> 01:18:59.800
 or come up to us and just talk with us,

01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:03.720
 because we, yeah, would love to hear more of your experiences today.

01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:06.740
 Thank you.

01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:07.480
 Thank you.

01:19:07.480 --> 01:19:07.659
 Yeah.

01:19:07.659 --> 01:19:08.079
 Thank you.

01:19:08.079 --> 01:19:08.579
 Thank you.