So, there are handouts. If you didn't get a handout, raise your hand and Ben's coming around with them.
So we are several weeks into our class on gender and sexuality, looking at God's purpose for making us in his image as male and female
and how we're to relate to one another and how to glorify Christ.
So, this morning we were looking at the theme of hospitality and holiness.
That's what I want to entitle this morning's lesson, or Christian witness to the LGBT community.
That is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and you could add more letters to that as well.
So, just a couple of schedule notes. So the next two weeks, we are sort of taking a break from this class.
Next week, it says prayer. Jeff Stevens is actually going to teach next week.
And if he was here, he could tell you what he's teaching on.
But he's not here yet. So, he may teach on marriage or he may do something on prayer.
And I just asked him a couple days ago, so it's not his fault.
But he will be leading you next week.
And then there's a missionary who's been part of our church this fall who's staying at the Overseas Ministry Study Center
named Dr. Adam Shaba from Nigeria.
And he is a pastor from Nigeria.
And he is going to share some of what he has been...
He's going to share with us on the 24th.
So, I've got to talk with him.
He is... I'm trying to think. He's working on two projects, and I won't be able to remember what they are.
One of them is, I think, something like how Christians should respond when they're persecuted.
And then another... Because a lot of... He works with pastors and churches, some of whom have been violently attacked.
And so, how do Christians respond?
You know, how do... You know, do you run away?
Do you take up arms and fight?
Do you just sort of stand there?
You know, what does it look like, you know, when it's really intense?
You know, that's... And how do we face opposition more broadly?
So, he might speak on that or just other things that the Lord has been teaching him.
And then December, we'll come back to this class and continue.
We're going to do one week on pornography, one week on sexual abuse,
and then finally, we'll look at our heavenly hope, the hope of glory, right?
So, we're in the middle of this fallen world.
We're dealing with these challenging issues, but we want to keep our eyes on the promise that God has for us.
And so, that's where we're going to end.
So, so far in this class, we've looked at God's design for our bodies
and how we're beautiful, created by God, and broken because we're corrupted by sin.
How in Christ we're called into redemption and he has begun his work of redemption in us.
We looked at how marriage and singleness, when we live those out in a Christ-centered way,
can both point towards Christ's redemption.
And last two weeks, we looked at homosexuality and we looked at transgender identity
in light of the Christian story.
But today, so far, we've been sort of looking at everything in light of the Christian story.
Right? In light of the gospel, in light of the biblical narrative.
But today, I want to ask the question, how do we relate to people who haven't yet bought into the Christian story?
Right? How do we relate to people who are outside the church with wisdom and love?
And the Bible has a lot to say to us about that.
I think if we start by looking at the ministry of Jesus,
we can look at how did Jesus relate to people in the world who were not yet his disciples?
Now, there are several examples you could point to.
But three groups of people that Jesus relates to.
So one, in the beginning of Mark, tells a story about Jesus encountering a leper.
And a leper would have been outside, sort of an outsider,
someone who was literally forced to remain separate from the community
because they were worried that his disease would spread to others.
And so he would actually have to call out, unclean, unclean.
And so there's a lot of shame associated with being a leper.
And we see a story where Jesus touched the leper and then healed him.
We also see another group of people who we see Jesus relating to are tax collectors.
Now, tax collectors were notorious cheaters.
Right?
So pretty much you could assume that someone who was a tax collector was actively engaged in sin.
Deception, greed, etc.
How does Jesus relate to tax collectors?
Well, we see Jesus calling Levi and Matthew,
whether those two were the same person or two different people,
but calling them to be his disciples,
and they left behind their former way of life and followed him.
But we also see an interesting situation where Jesus calls Levi to be his disciple.
And then he goes to Levi's house,
and it says many tax collectors were there at Levi's house eating and drinking with Jesus.
And a lot of people looked at Jesus and said,
Jesus, why are you eating and drinking with those people?
Why are you going to the house of people who are obviously actively engaged in sinful and destructive behavior,
cheating our own community, bringing dishonor upon us?
You know, why would you be associating with them?
And Jesus says, it's not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
I haven't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Another group of people who we see Jesus interacting with who are not yet his disciples would be,
so in John chapter 8, beginning of John chapter 8,
there's a story about Jesus encountering a woman caught in adultery.
Now, there's a little, you know, this story may or may not have been exactly where it currently is in the Gospel of John.
It's sort of one of two passages in the New Testament that might,
we're not totally sure if it was right where it is now.
But another story in Luke, similar story,
there's a prostitute who comes and anoints Jesus' feet,
or it says, a sinful woman of the city,
which you can sort of read between the lines.
Again, someone who was sort of would have been seen as notorious.
And she was attracted to Jesus.
And so, how does Jesus respond to,
well, in John, with the adulterous woman,
he says,
neither, he says,
let the one who's without sin throw the first stone.
Right?
Because some people, they bring her to him and they want to stone her.
And so, and then all the other people go away
and Jesus is left standing there.
And he says, neither do I condemn you.
Go now and sin no more.
So isn't that so interesting, right?
In all these episodes,
and we could look at others as well,
we see that Jesus is hospitable.
He's remarkably generous towards outsiders.
People even are attracted to him
who are not attracted to other religious leaders
who normally keep their distance
from the Pharisees and other,
and Sadducees and other sort of well-known religious leaders.
Jesus attracts them to himself.
He eats with them.
He meets them on their own turf,
even though it damaged his reputation to do so.
But Jesus also calls those who follow him
to a life of holiness.
That is to being set apart for God and his purposes.
Right?
So Jesus doesn't,
he calls those who follow him
to a life of uncompromising devotion,
even saying,
take up your cross and follow me.
Right?
So Jesus calls his disciples to forsake our sin
and to follow him.
And I think what you see in Jesus's ministry
is that his generous hospitality
both precedes and promotes holiness.
So what I mean there is,
Jesus doesn't wait until everyone's completely forsaken their sin
in order to be generous and kind and open-hearted to them,
but he's also not generous and kind and open-hearted
in a way that encourages them to remain
in the same sinful or self-destructive patterns.
So there's that balance there.
Right?
Jesus is generous and open-hearted to people.
He meets them right where they are,
but in his grace,
he doesn't let them just stay right where they are.
Isn't that true?
Isn't that how God meets us?
So I think this gives us a model
of how do we relate to people
who are not yet followers of Jesus?
Jesus.
And in fact, in the epistles,
we see the same commands to us.
Romans 12,
seek to show hospitality.
Be generous and open-hearted.
And that's true,
not even just for fellow Christians,
but the verses go on to talk about
don't repay anyone evil for evil.
If your enemy is hungry,
feed him.
If he's thirsty,
give him something to drink.
Right?
That's what hospitality involved in the ancient world
is inviting someone in your home
and giving them a meal.
And Jesus says,
even to someone who is opposing you,
right?
Extend that kind of generous welcome.
And another verse that I think goes along with this
is when Paul in 2 Corinthians says,
we regard no one according to the flesh.
Now, what does that mean?
Basically, what Paul is saying here is
we don't just see people
in sort of worldly categories.
We don't just see people
in the way that this world defines them
or even just in the way they might define themselves.
We see people in the way that God defines us
as people who are made in God's image,
every single human being.
And as every single human being
is broken and corrupted by sin.
Right?
And we're all in that same boat.
That's where it sort of starts.
So we see people,
we, and that's something we can pray.
Lord, help me to see other people
as you see them
or in light of how you see them.
But second, holiness, right?
The same chapter, Romans 12 says,
abhor what is evil,
stay away from what is evil
and hold fast to what is good.
So Christians should have clear
and distinct moral standards,
embracing what's true and right
and good and beautiful
and resisting what is deceptive
and distorted and dishonoring to God.
And I think standing for holiness
starts with seeking holiness ourselves.
Right?
So in other words,
sort of let's clean our own house first.
Right?
So I used this analogy
in a sermon about a year ago
where I talked about poison ivy
that had infiltrated our yard
and it was mostly coming
from our neighbor's yard.
But you know what?
If I just got really mad at the neighbor
and, you know,
because I needed to start
by cleaning it out of our yard.
Right?
So that I wouldn't get it again.
Because it was awful.
Right?
You know,
so we need to start seeking holiness
by taking up our own cross
and following Christ.
And that's the only way
that we can sort of be
a credible witness to others
to challenge others
to also do the same.
So practically,
what does this look like
in relation to the LGBT communities?
Now I'm using this phrase
LGBT community
not because everyone
who is gay or lesbian
or bisexual
or transgender
or queer
or intersex
or asexual
or however they might
define themselves
is part of one community
because that's not really true.
But just sort of
people who identify that way.
Right?
And there's many,
you know,
people,
so some terms.
I've listed some definitions
of terms
just to understand
how terms are commonly used.
Right?
And that's helpful.
Right?
Part of meeting somebody
where they are
is understanding
how they see themselves
or how they define themselves.
And at least
understanding it.
Even if you might say,
well,
I don't know whether
I would see that
as the whole picture.
But you know what?
You've got to at least start
by understanding people.
And I think here
it's good to ask questions.
I mean,
there are many terms out there.
I think it's fine
to ask questions like,
how do you identify yourself?
Can you tell me
what that means to you?
What has your experience
been like?
It's better to ask
an honest question
than to make
a wrong assumption
out of fear.
Some terms are phrases
that may provoke
negative reaction
from many people
who identify
as LGBT.
So one would be
calling someone
a homosexual.
People sort of
hear that word
and are like,
but that's not
how I define myself.
That sounds sort of
more like a clinical term.
Or referring to
a homosexual lifestyle.
People might be like,
well,
what are you envisioning
when you think of,
when you use that phrase?
Are you saying
that everyone lives
the same way
in all these respects?
If someone calls himself gay,
they might not like it
if you refer to
their experience
of having same-sex attractions.
So same-sex attractions
is a more common phrase
within the Christian community,
especially because
many Christians
use that phrase
to basically say,
this is what I'm experiencing,
but this isn't
at the deepest level
who I am.
But many people
who have embraced
a gay or lesbian identity,
if you use that phrase
same-sex attraction,
they'll be like,
but you're immediately
trying to tell me
that that's not who I am,
and you're trying
to tell me
that I need to get rid
of this part of me
that I think
is actually very fundamental
to who I am.
So it's sort of like,
could be seen as like
immediately provoking
a conflict
just by the phrase
that you use.
Right?
So,
so I think
sometimes it's wise
to sort of just
avoid phrases
that immediately,
that might immediately
cause offense
in the process
of building a relationship
with someone
and sort of
representing Christ.
Another thing
I think
can be helpful
is to recognize
that there are
some similarities
between
the evangelical
conservative
Christian community
and the LGBT community.
You might think,
really?
Well,
think,
think about
what is the experience
like,
right?
Both groups
feel like
marginalized minorities
in a hostile
or indifferent world.
Both groups
find solidarity
and strength
in being together.
Right?
Why do we come together
on Sundays?
Because we want
to find strength
in our Christian,
Christ-centered identity.
Both have a message
of freedom
and liberation.
Right?
This idea,
we used to be living
in the darkness,
in the closet,
in shame,
and now we're living
in the truth,
and we want to be
accepted and loved
for who we really are.
Right?
For Christians,
we found that truth
in the person of Christ.
Right?
That he loves us
and he has given us
our true identity.
And,
but in the LGBT community,
there's a sense that
having sort of found
our sexual identity
might be a part of,
might be a similar
experience.
Both also want to be
accepting and hospitable
and outreaching communities
in a sense.
Wanting to
bring more people
into our community
or to extend
our community
into the wider world.
The other similarity
is that each group
sees the other
as a potential
and,
or as a specific
or at least
a potential threat
to its well-being.
Right?
So,
most recently,
Beto O'Rourke
at one of the
Democratic debates
said that he thinks
that churches
that take a traditional
position on marriage
should have their
501c3 status revoked.
Now,
right?
How does that feel
as a Christian?
Right?
You know,
first of all,
you're like,
really?
Like,
boy,
that would like
decimate a lot
of charitable organizations.
I don't think you realize
what you're doing.
I don't think you realize
how many of the poor
and other people
that your party
stands for,
like,
are being helped
by these very organizations
actively.
You know?
So,
right?
But,
but even besides that,
right,
as a Christian,
you sort of feel like,
whoa,
like,
we feel like
we're being attacked here.
And,
people,
you know,
people in the LGBT community
feel like,
you know,
when there was a whole,
you know,
long debate about
same-sex marriage
and,
you know,
Proposition 8 in California
and,
you know,
it's those
evangelical Christian churches
who are standing
against our right
to,
and our freedom.
Right?
So,
there's,
there's this sense
and vocal members
of each group
advocate for
mutually opposing
public policy stances.
Right?
Now,
not everybody
has the same politics
in either group,
but,
still.
The other thing
I'll say is that
Christians
who experience
same-sex attraction
but who choose
not to pursue
a same-sex relationship
because they prioritize
their Christian identity
and their,
their biblical commitment
over their sexual desires
are sort of caught
in the middle.
So,
they're generally
not well understood
or accepted
within the wider
gay community,
but they're also
not always well understood
or supported
in the church.
And I think,
one of the things
I hope within this class
is that
we would be
equipped
and encouraged
to
stand with
our brothers and sisters
in Christ
or walking this
challenging
and hard road.
But how can
Christians faithfully
bear witness to Christ
when relationships
can easily become
distant,
polarized,
and tense,
right?
When each group
sort of sees each other
as a potential threat.
What should be
the distinctive witness
of Christians?
Well,
I don't think
that Christians
should abandon
our traditional
understanding
of biblical marriage.
You know,
we've talked about
that in past weeks.
And,
but I do think
that if we're
finding our identity
and our security
in Christ
and not from ourselves,
because that's really
the difference,
right?
Where do Christians
find our deepest identity
outside of ourselves
in Jesus Christ?
Where does,
you know,
if someone
who is
identifying as LGBT
and sort of
claiming that
as the,
sort of,
one of the deepest
parts of who they are,
well,
it's in their own
sexual desires
and experience,
right?
So,
that's sort of
the main difference
is where is the source
of your identity
coming from?
And I think as Christians,
because the source
of our identity
is coming from
outside us,
I think that we
have some resources
to engage
in these kind of
challenging relationships.
So first,
as forgiven sinners,
I think we can be
less defensive.
We can be more able
to admit
our own flaws
and our own weaknesses
and our own sins.
And we're not,
right,
as Christians,
we are not out
to prove that we are
better than everybody
else in the world.
And if we are,
then we've forgotten
the gospel,
which says,
Christ died for our sins,
right?
And by the grace of God,
we are what we are.
Second,
as recipients of God's
common grace,
now,
common grace is just a word
that means the blessings
that God extends
to all people,
regardless of whether
they believe in Him.
So,
life and being made
in God's image
and,
you know,
the sun and the rain
and everything,
we can affirm
all that is good
and a reflection
of God's image
in LGBT people.
So,
for example,
there may be many
admirable aspects
of a gay couple's
friendship,
even though Christians
cannot celebrate
the sexual aspects
of that relationship.
Or,
a lesbian couple
may be admirable,
excellent parents
in many respects,
even though Christians
may be concerned
that they've deliberately
structured their family
and chosen to exclude
a male parental figure
in how they've
structured their family.
Right?
So,
I think Christians
have an internal,
third thing,
Christians have an
internal motivation
through our union
with Christ
to love people
who are different
than us,
people who disagree
with us,
or even people
who attack us.
And that's not
something
that is inherent
in the LGBT community
or the world at large.
Right?
Just because you identify
as gay or lesbian
does not actually
give you any resources
to love somebody
who disagrees with you
or who understands
your identity differently.
But,
identifying as a Christian
should.
Right?
It should enable us
to love people
better,
even people who
deeply disagree with us
or even might attack us.
I'm not going to get into
what kinds of public
policies Christians
should advocate for.
I will recommend
a book called,
by John Inaz,
who called
Confident Pluralism,
which sort of talks
about how Christians
can engage widely.
It's written not just
to Christians,
but he's a Christian
law professor.
And there's a copy
on the bookstall.
But it's a very thoughtful book.
It gets into some details
of legal cases
and things like that.
And he's sort of trying
to say,
how do we live together
in a society
where people have
very different views
and opinions?
Is there a way
that we can pursue
the common good together?
So I think that's
a thoughtful book
and a good resource
in that direction.
But next steps
for the church
in reaching out
to people
who identify
as LGBT.
Extend hospitality.
Take initiative
to befriend
and listen to
and learn
from people.
Repent of double standards.
Believe that all
sexual sin
is destructive.
Let's clean
our own houses first.
Third,
acceptance is not
the same as affirmation
or approval.
Now just think about
how you express this
in other relationships.
Right?
There's many other
relationships that
we all find ourselves in
where there's some
aspect of how
people are living
or their habits
or the way
they conduct themselves
at work
that you're like,
I really don't approve.
I can't go along
with that.
I really have concerns
about that.
I think that's
certainly wouldn't
be acceptable
for me as a Christian
to engage in.
But you have to relate
to that person
and respect them.
Right?
So just think about
how you do that
in other relationships.
Sometimes I think
this feels very tense.
Right?
How do we
like accept somebody
but without affirming them?
Well,
I mean,
do you have any friends
who are heterosexuals
who are cohabiting
and they're not married
and they're not Christian?
Well,
how do you relate to them?
Right?
I mean,
that's a close analogy.
Right?
There's plenty
of other analogies.
Four,
I'd say invest
for the long haul
not just for the short term.
More specific questions.
Let me jump
into more specific questions,
try to run through these
a little quickly
and then open it up.
I want to make sure
to leave some time
for questions
that you have.
How should I respond
if somebody comes out
to me as gay
or lesbian
or et cetera?
First,
thank them
for trusting you
enough to share
that with you
because if they know
you're a Christian,
they probably have
some fear
that you would reject them
or have an immediate
sort of negative response
like,
I don't want to deal
with you anymore
or something like,
or distancing yourself.
So,
thank them
for trusting you enough.
Reassure them
that you're committed
to your friendship
or whatever your relationship
is with them,
you know,
that you won't reject them
as a person.
My brother came out
to me several years ago
and I said,
I just want you to know,
like,
you're always going
to be my brother
and I,
you know,
I love you
and I want you
to know that.
And that was part
of our conversation.
Third,
listen to them.
Ask honest questions,
right?
Tell me more about
what it's been like
for you.
Who have you told?
How have people responded?
Are you in a relationship?
Right?
These are helpful questions.
Third,
pray for them.
Or fourth,
pray for them.
Pray that God
would reveal his goodness
to them.
Pray that your faith,
friendship would be
a faithful expression
of that goodness.
Now,
another question
that comes up
is,
should I tell my friend,
my gay friend,
for example,
or my gay brother,
that I don't support
gay marriage?
So,
I did not initiate
that conversation
when my brother
came out to me,
but he asked me
very directly,
so that gave us
a good opportunity
to talk.
So,
the short answer
is it depends.
Okay?
So,
consider at least
the following factors,
right?
Does your friend
claim to follow Christ
and accept
the authority
of the Bible?
Okay?
Have you had
conversations
about the gospel,
like the big picture
of the Bible,
anything else
about God?
Do you have
a friendship
that generally
allows for disagreement
and mutual challenge
on a personal level?
Or not?
And,
is your friend
asking for your opinion
on this particular question?
So,
if the answer
to all those questions
is yes,
then yes.
You need to be clear
about where you stand.
If the answer
to all those questions
is no,
probably no,
you don't need
to initiate
that conversation.
If the answer
is somewhat yes
and somewhat no,
then that's,
right,
the discerning
place in the middle.
So,
now,
what if,
right,
what if somebody
asked you directly,
right?
Say,
random person
on the street,
or a person
that you,
you know,
whatever,
crazy situation,
right?
You're like,
oh,
I don't want
to be in this conversation.
Where is this going?
Why are they asking
me this question?
Do you think
homosexuality is a sin?
So,
sometimes a simple
direct answer
is best.
Yes,
I think God
intended sex
to be for marriage
between a man
and woman.
I think anything
outside of that
is not God's will
for those who
follow God.
So,
actually,
so I have a lot
of books.
Where is this one?
Okay.
So,
Beckett Cook
was an actor
in Hollywood
and he
was sitting
at a coffee shop
in LA
and he was like,
you know,
I'd never,
like,
I'd never really
interacted with
Christians in the
worlds that I lived
in.
You know,
pretty much,
we never talked
about God.
Most of us agree
that God probably
didn't exist.
And then I was
sitting at this
coffee shop and
there were these
guys,
like,
reading the Bible
together and,
like,
discussing the Bible
at a table near us.
And I was like,
this is really weird.
Why are they here?
You know,
this is like a hip
coffee shop in LA.
Like,
you know,
I thought they were
only in Arkansas.
You know?
And so,
he's curious
and so he's talking
to his friend
and he's like,
should we ask,
like,
so he goes over
and he's like,
who are you guys?
Like,
what are you guys
up to?
Oh,
we're Christians.
We're reading the Bible
together.
You know,
we're from this church.
You know,
he asks him some more
questions and he's like,
well,
so,
you know,
what about homosexuality?
Like,
where do you guys
stand on that?
And he's like,
the guy was very honest.
He said,
you know,
he and his church
did not think
that,
that gay sex was,
you know,
they,
they believe that gay sex
was not pleasing to God.
And that guy happened
to sort of have,
that guy also said,
you know,
I also have same-sex
attractions myself,
but I've chosen
to not pursue those
because I'm committed
to following Christ.
And the guy was like,
well,
that's sort of weird.
Like,
why would you do that?
But then,
you know,
the guy like gave him
his,
gave him his card
and was like,
hey,
if you want to come
to church with me,
you're welcome.
And so,
like a week and a half later,
he goes to church
and he's sitting there
and he's listening
to the sermon
and he's like,
the sermon,
he's like,
I never wanted
the sermon to end.
It was so fascinating.
Right?
You're like,
boy,
the Holy Spirit
must be working.
The sermon was like
an hour long.
Like,
you know,
and,
and he had,
so anyway,
he had this like
remarkable conversion.
Right?
Anyway,
you can read the story.
But,
you know,
but he was like,
it was actually really helpful
that somebody was just clear
and like didn't get all
weird about it.
We're just like,
well,
no,
that's where we stand.
But,
you know,
that's,
you're welcome
to come to our church.
Like,
now sometimes I think
it's worth trying to bring
in the bigger picture.
Right?
So,
here are ways to bring
in the bigger picture.
And many times Jesus did this.
So,
sometimes Jesus,
people come to Jesus
with a question
and he answers
with another question.
Or he sort of brings
in a bigger picture
he doesn't answer
immediately directly.
So,
is homosexuality a sin?
Well,
what do you think sin is?
Well,
the Bible says that
everyone has sinned
and fallen short
of the glory of God.
So,
that sort of opens up
a bigger conversation.
Right?
You don't want to just
avoid the question
and never answer it.
But,
it's sort of
bringing in a bigger,
is it,
okay,
so,
you know,
so we're clear
that we're not just saying
those people are sinners
and we're not.
Right?
No,
the Bible's saying
we're all sinners.
Well,
what is sin?
Right?
All right.
Third question,
should I attend a gay wedding
if I'm invited?
Okay?
Some Christians say no
because they would say
attending a wedding
means you're witnessing
and blessing the vows
of the couple getting married.
Other Christians say yes,
you can attend a wedding
as an expression of friendship
without endorsing the marriage.
Right?
So,
is this like
going to worship
in an idol's temple
or is it like
Jesus eating and drinking
with the tax collectors?
Right?
Okay,
good question.
I think there's,
so,
there's some roles
in a wedding
that clearly communicate
I approve
and I'm here,
I'm completely behind
sort of everything
that this couple is doing.
Right?
Officiating,
obviously,
I think also being
in the wedding party,
you know,
standing up there,
that's sort of symbolic,
that seems to fall
on that side.
I think just being
in the audience
may or may not
communicate approval.
So,
traditionally it did.
Traditionally it's like
God and these witnesses.
Today,
it's not,
I don't think people
see the audience
in a sort of that way.
I think people
see the audience
as,
well,
they're here,
they're our friends,
we want them to be
part of our party.
So,
so I think
it's more problematic
if someone
is having
same-sex wedding
explicitly
in the name of Christ
and sort of
because that isn't
something that Christ
actually is
sort of authorizing
and blessing.
But,
question is to ask.
If I attend,
what will that communicate?
If I don't attend,
what will that communicate?
If I attend something
I can't fully support,
how do I maintain
integrity
in that setting?
Sort of,
what boundaries
will I draw?
So,
again,
so I,
my cousin
had a same-sex wedding.
Yes,
I have a lot of
extended family members
who are in,
who identify as LGBT
and I had to ask myself,
do I go?
Right?
So,
but what do I,
what do I say
as I walk through
the receiving line?
Right?
And so I said,
you know,
I'm really glad
to be here with you today
and I'm really thankful
for you,
for you guys.
Right?
I can say that
with integrity.
Right?
I'm thankful for you,
for having you guys
in my life.
Um,
but other people
might choose not to attend.
Other people might feel like,
I just can't do it.
Like,
I just can't do it
with integrity.
That's fine.
If you're there,
then,
then I think the question is,
how do you,
sort of,
um,
be intentional
about pursuing relationship
with people
both before and afterwards?
And sort of expressing,
like,
you know,
and maybe you're
explicit about why
you can't attend,
maybe you're more distant
and you just,
you know,
uh,
decline the invitation.
But how do you express,
like,
I still,
I,
I value you as a friend
or as extended family member?
Um,
all right.
I'm sure these questions
raise more questions,
but we'll go on.
What about preferred pronouns
and people who adopt
a new name
as part of their gender transition?
Is that,
is calling someone
by their preferred name
and pronoun
an expression of hospitality,
meaning people where they are?
Or,
is it bearing false witness
because you are affirming
something that,
that is not actually true?
Calling someone he
when they are really she
in God's eyes.
Uh,
so,
so there's a lot of pressure,
uh,
including legal pressure.
I think New York City
passed a misgendering ordinance
and in Great Britain
there is one as well.
Um,
so there's pressure
to just
call people
whatever they want to be called
and don't you dare
question that.
Uh,
now,
I think there's a question
that as Christians
we need to be discerning
and prayerful
and patient
and courageous.
So,
you know,
if somebody introduces themselves
to you by a certain name,
I think just go with that name,
right?
I've had people introduce themselves
to me by all kinds of names.
I'm G.
I'm,
you know,
whatever.
And I'm like,
I don't think that was
your birth name.
Okay?
Right?
But you know what?
I'm not going to ask for their ID.
I'm not going to say
what did your brother name you
when you were born.
I'm not going to,
I'm just,
fine,
I'll relate to you
however you,
like,
whatever name you're telling me.
Like,
we're just starting
a relationship here.
Um,
now if you have
an existing relationship
with somebody,
you could have
an honest conversation
about what you're willing
or not willing to do.
So you might say,
I'm willing to
call you by the name
you want to be called,
but I don't feel comfortable
referring to you as he.
Is that,
you know,
is that okay?
Um,
so,
in some cases
you can sort of work that out.
People will accept that.
There's sort of a way of,
okay,
we're trying to respect each other
and,
you know,
there may be some
give and take
on both sides.
um,
uh,
now in at least
some cases,
um,
just,
I'll,
I'll get back to you.
Uh,
in at least some cases
you may,
uh,
so an obvious case
might be,
uh,
someone who is suicidal,
someone who is
extremely depressed,
uh,
or mentally unstable.
Um,
I,
I think there are
certainly some cases
where you,
you might decide
it is not wise
to even attempt
to open this can
of worms right now
because there are
sort of bigger issues
at stake.
And maybe we can talk
about this down the road
but the best thing
would just be
let's not even
try to navigate,
you know,
let's just,
let me,
let's just try to,
uh,
sort of,
um,
uh,
even accept something
that might be
maybe less than ideal.
Um,
avoiding pronouns
is possible
at times
it can be awkward.
All right,
last question
and then I'll open it up.
Uh,
how do I talk about
all this with my children?
Or if you will have children,
right?
Christian parents
should actively
guide their children
in age-appropriate
gender identity development.
Uh,
so,
this begins with
repeatedly and regularly
affirming
in different ways
how wonderful it is
that God has made
them male or female
and explaining
God's good design
for the human body
and male and female
relationships
at an early age.
And I think
the best way
to do this
is to talk about this,
uh,
before,
uh,
children are directly
confronted with sort of
fallenness and brokenness
in this area.
And not as a reaction
to,
um,
seeing something
that you're like,
oh no,
I can't affirm,
I can't,
we can't promote that
so I need to tell
my children
what God's design is.
No,
we,
we need to,
first,
the best thing is like,
start early.
Um,
so,
uh,
we used,
uh,
two books that I think
are on the bookstore
called The Story of Me
and Before I Was Born.
They're sort of,
um,
uh,
book,
uh,
picture books
with,
uh,
very tasteful,
uh,
illustrations.
Um,
so we were the first one
when our children,
our older children
had just turned three
and five.
Uh,
and so these for us
opened the door
to many further conversations.
So it's a normal topic
in our household,
uh,
to talk about being male
and female,
even to talk about sex.
Our kids can ask us questions.
Now,
I'm not,
you know,
like,
you can be discreet here.
Okay?
Right?
I'm not going,
I'm not saying let's,
you know,
be,
um,
uh,
sort of,
uh,
inappropriate.
But,
but I also think,
um,
you know,
uh,
this is something
that God has made.
Right?
God made our bodies.
They're good.
He made them good.
Right?
He made humanity
to reproduce sexually.
Right?
You can explain
that to children
in an appropriate way.
Right?
It takes a mommy
and a daddy,
a man and a woman
to come together
and make a baby.
Right?
Like,
it's a mysterious,
you know,
at first you can say
it's just,
it's a wonderful thing.
Like,
mommy and daddy
love each other
so much
that they want to,
um,
sort of bring,
uh,
another person
into the world.
It's a gift from God.
So,
I think it's important
not to just avoid
talking about these topics
because of some
misguided sense
of shame
or embarrassment.
Uh,
so,
back in the 19th century
in the Victorian era,
and sometimes
the church is a little bit
influenced by this,
nobody ever talked
about sex.
Right?
That was like
off the table.
Don't talk about it.
But,
you know what?
People talked very openly
about death.
You're gonna die.
You would take children
to maybe,
you know,
you might,
growing up,
see the corpses
of people
who were,
had passed away.
Uh,
death was not
hidden away.
Uh,
people might die
in your home.
Right?
Now,
today it's the reverse.
Right?
American adults are,
you know,
advertisement,
TV,
sex is everywhere.
But we don't want
to talk about death.
And we want to keep
death behind closed doors
and somewhere else.
And we think that
not telling children
about death
at all
would be a good thing
because we're
protecting them.
I don't think
the Bible,
the Bible is both
discreet,
about these topics,
but also very
frank,
actually.
Uh,
talk about what they are,
God's plan for them,
and,
and the hope
that we have
as,
as Christians.
Uh,
it's not unusual
for young children
as they're exploring
the world
and their bodies
develop to say
things like,
I wish I was a boy
or I wish I was a girl.
That doesn't mean
a child has
gender dysphoria.
It probably means
they're attracted
to some quality
that they primarily
associate with
the opposite sex.
Right?
And it's good
to be able
to appreciate
qualities of
the opposite sex.
That's one quality
we want to inculcate
in our children.
Right?
Not to be
sexist,
you know,
not to be like,
oh,
I hate those girls,
I hate those boys.
No,
again,
that's probably
natural adult mental
stage,
but you've got to
help your children
get beyond that.
Right?
You don't want
that to grow up
into adulthood.
Right?
Last point,
both mothers
and fathers
should be involved
in conversations
with children
about gender
and sexuality.
This is not
a responsibility
that should be
delegated to
one parent alone.
Usually,
it's delegated
to the mother.
Dads,
take up
your responsibility.
And this is
a privilege.
It's a privilege
to be able
to talk with
your children
about these things.
And to talk
about God's design
with them
and have this
be a topic
that is part
of sort of
our ongoing
discipleship
with our children
as they grow.
And to be able
to receive
who they are
as a good gift
from God
and relate
in healthy ways
to people
of the same
or opposite sex.
All right.
Questions?
We've got ten minutes.
Ivor.
Well,
first of all,
I think this
is the best teaching
I've ever heard
about this.
and I think
you should
probably publish it.
It needs to be
out there.
But avoiding
the whole idea
of pronouns
is very good.
It's just someone's name
is what I was taught
when I was counseling.
Yep.
The name.
Just say that.
Yep.
Whatever they give you,
that's what you use.
Yep.
You can certainly
do that.
That's,
that's,
yeah.
Yeah.
And avoid
Ms.
and,
you know,
all those
different
contractions
and just use
that whole name.
Yeah.
Or title.
Yep.
You can just use
somebody's name.
Yep.
Elizabeth.
This is a suggestion
as a resource.
I've been watching
YouTube videos
instead of,
you know,
movies.
And Eric in Texas
interviews really
interesting people.
so one night
he was interviewing
Beckett Cook
and it was
just astounding.
So you can hear
his whole story,
you know,
on a YouTube video
instead of buying
a book.
Yeah.
And there's a guy
Yeah,
if you're cheap
or if you don't
like reading books.
Yes.
Yeah,
sorry,
go ahead.
So I just suggest
that as a resource.
And also,
yeah.
Rosaria Butterfield
has wonderful
YouTube videos.
Yes.
So I have a bunch
of books here.
I mentioned
Beckett Cook,
Rosaria,
I've got
Rosaria Butterfield.
So she's another
example of someone
who came to Christ
out of a
non-Christian
LGBT background.
Who else?
David Bennett,
he also has
an interesting story.
He also came to
faith in Jesus
as a 19-year-old
who was a
political activist
in the LGBT
community.
And I think
he was in the
UK.
And what
else?
So I have
some books
from last week
on transgender
if you're
interested in
these.
So if you're
interested in
borrowing any
of these books,
I am happy to
let you borrow
them.
These are some
on just
Washington
Waiting with
Wesley Hill,
Same-Sex Attraction
in the Church,
Ed Shaw,
Christopher Yuan.
Christopher Yuan
was here eight
years ago and
spoke at Trinity
and other places.
So he's a great
resource.
There's also a good
ministry called
Harvest USA,
and they publish,
among other things,
some sort of
shorter booklets that
address topics.
So this is
sort of your gay
child says,
I do.
What if you have
a child who is
getting married,
sort of navigating
that particular
question,
can you change
if you're gay,
homosexuality in
the Bible.
So these are
well-balanced
resources.
I wouldn't just
say take one of
these and give
them to somebody.
It's more like
for equipping
Christians and
thinking through
these things,
and for Christians
who are asking
these questions.
So if you want
to look at any
of these,
feel free to
ask.
Yes,
Dean.
I have a
general question
question,
and that is
that we're
all sinners.
Yes.
The Bible
looks at sin
in a certain
way.
Yeah.
The society
looks at sin
in a different
way.
Yes.
How often
does the
Bible
first take
identity
as sin
versus,
let's say,
compared to
let's say,
adultery or
to killing
or usury
or whatever.
Yeah.
Versus,
let's say,
how society
can be
said.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Yeah,
so,
I mean,
there's
certainly
some sins
that are
discussed
more often
in the
Bible
than sexual
sins.
So greed
is probably,
various forms
of greed
are probably
discussed,
you can probably
find more
Bible verses
about those.
but there
are a lot
of Bible
verses about
sort of
God's
design for
male and
female in
general,
for marriage.
Adultery is
sort of,
you know,
marriage is
sort of,
from the
beginning in
Genesis,
God's design,
and so adultery
is sort of
like the
paradigmatic
sexual sin.
In other
words,
that's sort
of like the
sexual sin
that's discussed
most often,
but it's
sort of like,
almost like,
when the Bible
talks about
adultery,
it's sort
of almost
pointing to
all the other
varieties of
sexual sins
that are
connected with
it.
So,
yes,
in terms of
gender identity,
I think I'd
go back mostly
to Genesis
about God
made us in
his image
male and
female,
and sort
of Jesus
reaffirms
that.
I think
the first
thing the
Bible is
saying is
like,
that's a
good gift
from God.
And so,
there are
not as
many verses
in the
Bible that
specifically
deal with
transgender
expressions,
partly because
they were
not very
common in
the ancient
world.
And even
today,
even though
they may be
more common,
they're still,
you know,
like,
you know,
that's why
we don't
preach on
this topic
every Sunday.
Right?
You know,
we don't
have a
long Sunday
school class
on this
every single
year.
Right?
Because we're
trying to,
as a church,
we want to
sort of see
the whole
picture and
have a
biblical
balance of
the topics
we address.
So we
wanted to
do this
as sort
of a
more
in-depth
class
because I
think there's
a danger
in sort
of very
briefly
addressing
issues like
these.
And so
we try
not to
make side
comments
about
homosexuality
or transgender
identity
that might
not be
helpful.
Right?
Because it
isn't,
it's like,
well,
why did he
make that
side comment?
Is he
just trying
to be
offensive?
Is he
just trying
to score
points with
somebody?
You know,
we want
to actually
see what
does the
Bible
actually say
about this
and sort
of take
a more
in-depth
and a
more
comprehensive
approach
so we're
not just
singling out
one issue.
So that's
the idea
behind how
this class
was put
together.
But yes,
Dean,
I appreciate
that comment.
And so we
want to
sort of,
as a church,
we want to
be growing
into the
image of
Christ in
every way
that God
has called
us to.
Tyler.
A general
question.
How do you
navigate
between
faithfulness,
will cause
and offense
to a world
that's
rebellious
against
God
versus
what we
are talking
about today
where
we don't
want to
cause
unnecessary
offense,
especially
in the LGBT
conversation.
A loving
thing is to
have some
repentance
of a sin
that grieves
God,
but at the
same time
we don't
want to
be unnecessarily
offended.
Yeah.
How do you
navigate
trying to
be faithful
which may
cause
offense
versus
I don't
want to
offend you
right now.
Right.
So just
because you
offend somebody
does not
necessarily
mean that
you have
been unfaithful
to Christ
and it
also doesn't
necessarily
mean that
you are
being faithful
to Christ
by offending
them.
So again,
I think in
general,
you know,
Paul says
I'm becoming
all things
to all people.
That's a verse
that can be
taken out of
context.
There's a context
to that.
But basically
what Paul
is saying
is I
don't want
to cause
unnecessary
offense apart
from the
truth of the
gospel and
the implications
of the
gospel.
So,
yes,
like,
you know,
the gospel
says we are
all sinners
and honestly
that offends
every human
being's pride.
Like,
and to say
yes,
the Bible
does say
that this
is a sin
among many
other things.
sometimes
somebody will
walk away
and not
want to
have anything
to do
with you
again.
And that
may be a
cost.
And I
think that's
true.
And I
think the
question in
that case
is how
do you
sort of
continue to
be open
to a
relationship
with somebody,
continue to
pray for
someone,
perhaps,
even if
they slander
you or
attack you
or want
to cut
off a
relationship
with you
in the
worst case
or just
distance
themselves
from you
or sort
of feel
like they
were offended
by you.
So,
I mean,
yes,
I've had
plenty of
cases where
people have
been offended
because I've
confronted them
about a
sin.
And,
you know,
if you've
never been
there,
then probably
if you're,
you know,
again,
I think our
responsibility to
one another
within the
body of
Christ is
if we see
each other
sort of
walking in a
habitual pattern
of sin that
dishonors God
and doesn't
live up to
sort of our
profession of
faith,
the loving
thing is to
confront each
other.
Now,
I don't think
the same thing
is you have
to go and
confront somebody
who is not
a Christian
because they
don't share
that same
framework,
right?
They don't
share that
same loyalty
to Christ.
You don't
expect a
non-Christian
to just start
living like a
Christian.
So,
you know,
there's not
the same
sort of
command there.
But,
yes?
Stephanie?
Yeah,
yeah,
right.
That's a
great question.
And I,
the question
is how should
Christians think
about what
policies they
should support?
For example,
whether insurance
should reimburse
gender-affirming
surgery.
So,
I think,
I think that
book by
John Inazio,
Confident
Pluralism,
is a good
place to
start because
he deals
with some
very specific
examples,
not including
surgery,
but including
some transgender
rights cases.
So,
I think as
Christians we
need to think
about sort
of the common
good.
I do think
we need,
I mean,
I do think
there are
some people
who want
to say
that,
who want
to classify
all,
there are
some people
who would
want to
classify,
honestly,
some of
the things
I've said
in this
class,
as
discriminatory
hate speech.
I think
that's,
so,
and,
and have
legal penalties
for that.
I think
that's a
genuine concern.
And I think
that's a
genuine concern
for all,
like,
honestly,
that Christians
should have
for religious
freedom for
all people.
You know,
there's many
Jews and
Muslims that
have,
take sort
of,
conservative
or traditional
stances on
these matters.
And,
you know,
should,
I think
the bigger
picture that
Christians can
advocate is
how can we
seek the
common good
while acknowledging
that we don't
agree on many
fundamental things
in life.
So maybe
that's sort
of a
bigger framework
for how
Christians can
think about
contributing
positively to
society.
You know,
tolerance in
the Christian
view doesn't
mean approving
everything that
everyone else
stands for,
but it does
mean honoring
people as
being made
in God's
image.
So,
I'm not
answering your
question directly,
but I'm not
sure I,
I,
it's,
it's a good
further
conversation.
All right,
one more
question.
Don Young.
Um,
my parents are
not Christians
and they
don't tend
to think
about LGBTQ
event by
people or
like these
things as
sinning or
like having
a sin.
Um,
and my
sister always
took him out
as lesbian
in China,
parents are
from China,
um,
like a decade
ago.
Um,
and they
tend to
reason,
reason this
throughout,
through a very
independent lens
because they
are not
influenced by
the Christian
culture.
Yep.
And I think
as,
so I have
a daughter
who is
infertile,
who is having
sort of
disability,
and so that
gives them
the reason to
love them
further.
Um,
so like I
have a
disabled kid
and I just
want to extend
my love,
like regardless.
Um,
that's a really
cool interpretation,
like understanding
of my sister.
Um,
and I don't,
I'm certain,
and I am this
person who,
who came to
Christ five
years ago,
and trying to
like sort of
present my ideas
through a Christian
lens,
which could be
challenging,
um,
and sort of
overturning their
ideas.
I don't want to,
yeah,
but anyways,
I thought their,
their way of
thinking of this
is actually good
as well.
Um,
at least that
make them feel
like easy to go
by in their
hearts and how
to love their
daughter.
Yeah,
so they sort
of see,
uh,
they're sort of
seeing it through
the,
we talked
last week
about the,
sort of a
disability
framework for
seeing,
uh,
things sort
of,
so they
see,
uh,
your sisters,
um,
uh,
being a
lesbian as
she's sort
of,
uh,
a condition
that,
that should,
uh,
lead them to be
compassionate and
loving to her,
right?
And I think,
I think at that
level Christians
can,
can agree.
Yes,
we should be
compassionate and
loving to
people.
We all,
like,
uh,
struggle in
this world
with many
burdens,
um,
and many
difficult
challenges.
So,
so I think,
I think,
yeah,
I think in
this case,
I,
I think I
would,
you know,
I,
I think I
would encourage
you to
talk about,
I mean,
I think the
first thing you
want to
communicate is,
like,
the bigger
picture of
Christianity
and what,
and who
God is,
who people
are,
who Christ
is,
um,
I think only
when,
when they sort
of understand
the bigger
message of
Christianity
would it make
sense to
sort of have,
you know,
I,
I think
understanding
the Christian
view on
this issue
will only
make sense
in light
of the
bigger
story of
Christianity.
Is that,
um,
all right,
let's pray,
uh,
and I know we
ran a little
late,
so let's head
upstairs for
service after
this.
Lord,
thank you for
this time.
We pray that
you would give
us your
wisdom,
uh,
and,
uh,
fill us,
Lord,
with,
uh,
the,
the love
of Christ,
uh,
that would
lead us
to extend
hospitality.
Uh,
we pray that
you would
also fill
us with
the,
uh,
conviction
of the
Holy Spirit
to pursue
holiness,
uh,
to be people
who are
distinct and
different,
um,
because we
belong to
you.
Uh,
we pray,
uh,
that,
um,
uh,
that you
would be
working through
us for
your glory
to bring
many people,
uh,
to know
and love
you and,
uh,
submit their
lives to
you.
In Jesus'
name we
pray.
Amen.