WEBVTT

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 Welcome, everyone. It's my pleasure to introduce to you our speaker.

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 My name is Sean. I'm a pastor of Trinity Cambridge Church,

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 and it's our joy to host Dr. George Yancey here this evening,

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 and along with other supporting churches who have helped promote this event,

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 Settled My Road, Whole Fellowship Church, and Beacon Community Church,

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 and Ruggles Street Baptist Church, we want to thank you guys as well.

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 And Dr. George Yancey, he's a sociologist.

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 He teaches at Baylor University in Waco, Texas.

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 He has been writing on a number of subjects, including our subject for today,

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 racial bias, racism, as well as academic bias.

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 And he first wrote his book on this topic in 1995.

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 And so it's something that he's been thinking about for a long time.

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 And I first encountered Dr. George Yancey through his book, Beyond Racial Gridlock,

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 which at that time, when a lot of things, a lot of conversations were raging,

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 it was the most helpful, by far, book that I've read.

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 And he has since built on that and published recently, this past month,

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 the new book, Beyond Racial Division.

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 And Dr. George Yancey is unique because he brings,

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 he combines the academic rigor of a social scientist with his profound faith

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 and his understanding of Christian theology.

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 And so we're really excited to present this to you tonight.

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 So please welcome with me Dr. George Yancey.

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 Thank you.

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 Thank you.

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 Thank you.

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 Thanks for having me.

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 Thank you.

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 I just want to start off with a question.

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 If our Christian faith means anything,

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 why do we sound so much like everyone else on a moral issue such as race?

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 We're not talking about mathematics.

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 You know, we're not talking about,

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 well, Christian saying the same thing about mathematics, 2 plus 2 is 4.

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 Okay, that's fine.

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 But this is a moral issue.

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 So why do we sound like everyone else?

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 I don't think we should.

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 I don't think we have to.

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 And that's what I want to talk about tonight.

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 I am a professor and I'm a Christian.

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 And I believe that truth is truth.

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 And if it's truth and you find it through science

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 or if it's true, you find it through theology.

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 It's still true.

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 And my experience is that good science and good theology goes together.

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 And when they don't, either you have bad science,

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 you have bad theology or worse, you have both.

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 So this afternoon, I am going to talk theologically.

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 I'm also going to look at research

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 because I think that there is a way we can talk about race

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 that's going to actually be better,

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 where we can be more productive than we have been.

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 And I think that that's reinforced by Christian principles.

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 And I think it's reinforced by what we find out in academia.

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 So that's my approach.

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 Can Christianity teach us anything unique about racism?

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 Or is it just math and we sound like the rest of the world?

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 And of course, my answer is yes, and I want to look at that.

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 So that's my premise.

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 Okay.

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 Let's get started.

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 We live in a racialized society.

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 And by that, a society where race matters profoundly

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 for differences in life experiences,

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 of opportunities, and social relationships.

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 In other words, race matters.

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 The fact that society has defined me as an African-American man

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 matters in how I experience things,

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 in the opportunities I get.

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 And your race matters too.

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 Sometimes I hear whites say, well, I don't really have a race.

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 Yes, you do.

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 Your race matters because it impacts your life opportunities,

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 your social experiences.

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 And I'm not saying that all the experiences are bad.

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 I walk on the basketball court when I used to play,

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 and say, hey, let's pick the black guy.

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 You know, so it's not always a bad thing.

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 On the other hand, I'm pulled by the cops.

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 I wonder a little bit.

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 So it matters.

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 And the way it's matter in our society,

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 the way it's matter in the United States,

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 I think that there's two irrefutable claims one can make.

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 And the first is this.

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 We've had centuries of racial abuse in our society,

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 from whites to non-whites.

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 I don't think there's any argument about that.

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 Nor the second claim,

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 that a lot of the overt types of racism we've had historically

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 no longer apply today.

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 We don't have a Jim Crow today.

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 We don't have slavery today.

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 We're not putting Japanese internment centers today.

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 Now, some people use it as rhetoric,

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 but if you study history and then look at today,

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 it's not happening.

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 So this then leaves the big question.

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 How do we deal with the effects of the centuries of racial abuse

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 and the structures it's created

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 in a way where people see it as being fair?

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 And that's what we're struggling with today.

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 And to deal with that struggle,

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 I'm going to look at two major ways.

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 Am I supposed to point it?

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 Okay.

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 Two contrasting views about racism and how we deal with it.

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 The first view is this.

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 That racism is something that is overt

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 and done from one individual to another individual.

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 So it is racist if I mistreat you because of your race.

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 If I say I don't like you because you're white

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 or I like you because you're Hispanic.

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 It is racist if you don't get a job because someone says,

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 I'm not hiring people with that race.

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 It is overt.

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 And thus, those who have this idea about race

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 tend to advocate what's known as colorblindness.

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 And their solution to dealing with racism

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 is that we will treat everyone the same racially.

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 I'm not going to see race.

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 We're going to say race no longer matters.

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 So that it doesn't matter if I'm going to hire you.

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 It doesn't matter how I'm going to treat you.

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 I'm going to be colorblind.

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 That is one of the ways people answer this big question.

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 How do we deal with essential racial abuse?

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 We're going to ignore race and treat everyone the same.

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 The second, racism is structural as well as individualistic.

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 And social institutions can perpetuate racism

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 even when people don't intend for them to be racist.

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 So it's not about whether or not you personally are racist.

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 Social institutions in our society can perpetuate racism.

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 Now, today, the people who try to deal with this

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 use what's known as anti-racism.

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 And as Sean reminded me when he was driving me here

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 is that the king of anti-racism today is in Boston, right?

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 Kendi.

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 So I'm sure you all have heard of the term anti-racism.

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 And I'll go into a little bit on how I wanted to find it

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 in a little bit.

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 But it's the idea, look, we have social structures

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 that are racist.

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 So we must be intentional.

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 We can't just ignore.

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 We can't just be colorblind.

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 We must intentionally try to deal with racism.

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 And today, we tend to call it anti-racism.

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 So I want to take these one at a time

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 because my argument is that they both fail.

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 And then, even though they're very different in their outlook,

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 I'm going to argue they fail for the same reason.

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 And then, I want to try to look at a Christian approach.

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 That's going to be my argument for today, all right?

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 So let's first take the first one, colorblindness.

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 Is colorblindness viable?

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 All right.

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 So if colorblindness is viable, if we have a pretty fair society,

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 in other words, if society is pretty fair,

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 then we can ignore a race.

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 If people have equal chances, we can ignore a race

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 because it's not going to matter that much.

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 There are things that we do tend to ignore that are not that important.

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 We tend to kind of ignore, say, hair color.

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 You know, it's not really that important.

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 We don't totally ignore it.

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 I mean, if you prefer blondes, okay, fine.

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 But we kind of ignore hair color

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 because it's really not that important overall.

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 So that's the question.

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 Now, if society is not fair, though,

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 then to ignore race means that we're ignoring a problem.

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 If you have a wound, you don't correct that wound

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 by not treating that wound because then it gets worse.

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 So that's the question.

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 And what do we know?

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 There are reams of research on this subject.

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 Is society fair racially?

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 I'm going to give you a few, just a few studies.

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 I could spend, if I had prepared and I could find it,

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 I could spend this next hour going to study

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 answering this question.

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 So here's a few examples.

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 This paper, 2017, found that there's no real decrease

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 in racial discrimination when it comes to hiring

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 over the past 25 years.

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 Now, how do they know this?

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 They do something called an audit study.

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 It's kind of one of the studies you probably see

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 like in TV shows where they take a white person

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 and then a black Latino person and they apply for a job.

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 And then they are careful to make sure

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 that their resumes, their applications are roughly the same.

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 It can't be exactly the same when people go,

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 hey, you know, did you just copy this?

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 Is this plagiarism?

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 But they're roughly the same.

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 They do this over a number of people,

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 a number of employers so that we get a good sampling.

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 And what we know is that if you're,

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 and they signal, by the way,

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 they signal whether or not you're white or black

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 by things such as names.

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 So my name is probably not that distinct of George Yancey,

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 but if I was Leroy Yancey,

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 people would probably think, you know,

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 that he's more likely to be African American.

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 What they find is that due to this signal,

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 European Americans are called back for interviews

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 more often than African Americans and Hispanic Americans.

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 But here's the interesting part.

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 You know, let's say that European Americans

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 are called back 10% more than African Americans

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 and Hispanic Americans.

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 You can say, well, maybe 25 years ago it was 20% more,

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 so we're improving.

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 But look at that study where it says.

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 There's been no decrease over the past 25 years.

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 So this is not something that, well, yeah,

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 we still have some vestiges that are happening,

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 but we're getting better.

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 We're not getting better.

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 Another example.

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 Driving while black.

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 This study was done in Ohio.

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 Another study was done in other states.

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 Driving while black is,

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 are African Americans pulled over more

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 than European Americans?

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 All of these have been equal.

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 And so it's kind of an easy study to do.

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 You videotape who's driving

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 so you can see the race of people in the cars.

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 You see who's pulled over,

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 and then you just, you know, is it different?

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 And it is.

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 African Americans are pulled over more often

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 than European Americans.

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 Well, maybe blacks drive faster.

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 Well, they got the take,

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 so they can actually see that.

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 And the bad news is,

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 we're just as bad drivers as you white people are.

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 Not better, but not worse.

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 And then here's the kicker.

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 You know when you don't get this discrepancy?

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 At night.

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 It's hard to see the race of the person driving at night.

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 So driving while black is a real thing.

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 It's not just something African American people say.

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 Now, I doubt that people say

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 that have actually done the research to know this,

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 but they have instinctively found that,

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 figured out.

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 If you're black, you get pulled over more.

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 Residence of segregation.

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 Now, maybe you in Cambridge have conquered this.

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 I know in Texas, we have black parts of towns

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 and Hispanic parts of towns,

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 and even some Asian parts of towns.

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 We have residence of segregation.

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 And that means that you have black schools

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 and Hispanic schools.

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 And what this research found out

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 is that this segregation impacts,

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 and there's a lot of other ways segregation

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 impacts people of color,

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 but there's just one of the ways.

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 Through schools.

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 Because we have the black school,

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 the black school is not funded as well

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 or as high quality as the Brownlee White School.

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 I actually did not go to a black high school.

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 I went to a Hispanic high school

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 in the school that I went to.

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 Long story, not worth going into.

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 And our Hispanic high school was lousy

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 on a lot of things.

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 You know, we were lousy in football.

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 We were lousy in academics.

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 We're good at one thing.

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 In fact, we won state every year,

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 and it wasn't even close,

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 that one thing was industrial arts.

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 We build a home.

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 I say we, I didn't ever do that.

00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:35.019
 But the school would build a home every year.

00:13:35.179 --> 00:13:36.620
 They start from scratch, build a home.

00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:38.819
 Carpentry, bricklaying, everything.

00:13:40.599 --> 00:13:42.699
 They were great at state and dad.

00:13:43.479 --> 00:13:44.079
 Well, think about that.

00:13:44.339 --> 00:13:45.519
 This most Hispanic school

00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.000
 really doing a good job teaching people

00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.279
 how to be carpenters,

00:13:49.500 --> 00:13:50.779
 which is nothing wrong with that,

00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:52.279
 nothing wrong with teaching people

00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.919
 how to do masonry, all that other stuff,

00:13:55.219 --> 00:13:58.480
 except the white high schools in my school,

00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:59.480
 in my city,

00:14:00.419 --> 00:14:01.959
 they were good at seeing their kids to college.

00:14:02.479 --> 00:14:04.120
 So when I went to college, a local college,

00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.559
 I hardly ran to any of my kids from my alma mater.

00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.299
 I ran to a lot of kids from the other white schools.

00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:12.019
 Who's going to run our country?

00:14:12.479 --> 00:14:14.779
 Kids who build homes or kids who go to college?

00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:17.779
 Well, yeah, there's nothing wrong.

00:14:17.959 --> 00:14:19.679
 And for some people, believe me,

00:14:19.719 --> 00:14:21.039
 some of my students, they need that

00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:22.379
 instead of going to be in my class.

00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:25.700
 But think about the Hispanic school

00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:27.820
 teaches the kids to build homes.

00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:29.960
 The white school teaches the kids to go to college.

00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.360
 One last one, really relevant,

00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:36.939
 since we're hopefully coming out of COVID.

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.580
 Got to ride in a plane without a mask

00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:40.519
 for the first time in two years,

00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:41.519
 so hopefully we're coming out of COVID.

00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:46.460
 You ever wonder why

00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:50.100
 African Americans and Hispanic Americans

00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.379
 were less likely to get the vaccine?

00:14:52.199 --> 00:14:53.699
 Well, here's one of the reasons, perhaps, why.

00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:54.980
 There's evidence of racism

00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:56.079
 in the beliefs and practices

00:14:56.079 --> 00:14:57.159
 of healthcare professionals.

00:14:57.620 --> 00:15:00.419
 This study, they looked at 37 studies,

00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:02.980
 and 26 of them, they found evidence of racism.

00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.079
 Sometimes in the ways they were treated,

00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:08.059
 sometimes in the ways that they were tended to,

00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:09.159
 like what tests they were given.

00:15:12.959 --> 00:15:15.919
 So the experiences of African Americans

00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:17.179
 and Hispanic Americans is,

00:15:17.979 --> 00:15:18.739
 I go to the healthcare system,

00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:21.119
 I'm going to be treated worse

00:15:21.119 --> 00:15:22.259
 than European Americans.

00:15:23.819 --> 00:15:26.159
 Listen, African Americans still remember

00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:27.039
 Tuskegee experiment.

00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:29.779
 So when you put that in,

00:15:30.359 --> 00:15:33.479
 and I'm not saying that African Americans

00:15:33.479 --> 00:15:35.059
 and Hispanic Americans were smart

00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:36.439
 not to get the vaccine, okay?

00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:37.860
 But I'm just trying to explain

00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:39.680
 why they were less likely to do that.

00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:41.760
 You put that experience in there,

00:15:42.640 --> 00:15:44.700
 makes you a little bit wary

00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:45.960
 of people saying,

00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:47.280
 you've got to put this in your body.

00:15:48.560 --> 00:15:48.840
 All right.

00:15:50.540 --> 00:15:51.960
 All this is to say is,

00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:54.280
 we do not live in a society that is fair.

00:15:55.660 --> 00:15:57.180
 It is not, once again,

00:15:57.780 --> 00:15:59.300
 this is not Jim Crow,

00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:00.320
 this is not slavery.

00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:01.720
 I hate when, you know,

00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:02.700
 professional athletes say,

00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:04.300
 they're treated like I'm a slave.

00:16:04.299 --> 00:16:06.620
 read your history, son.

00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:07.859
 No, they're not.

00:16:09.459 --> 00:16:10.799
 But African Americans,

00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:11.899
 Hispanic Americans,

00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:13.620
 Asian Americans,

00:16:13.819 --> 00:16:15.659
 there are issues here.

00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.099
 And being blind to them

00:16:19.099 --> 00:16:20.699
 is not going to make them go away.

00:16:21.199 --> 00:16:22.719
 So when you go to a person of color

00:16:22.719 --> 00:16:23.519
 and say, hey, look,

00:16:23.659 --> 00:16:25.319
 let's ignore race,

00:16:25.579 --> 00:16:26.979
 and this is happening,

00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:29.459
 they're not likely to want

00:16:29.459 --> 00:16:30.299
 to go along with that.

00:16:30.299 --> 00:16:32.179
 And they know that the wound

00:16:32.179 --> 00:16:33.459
 will not get healed

00:16:33.459 --> 00:16:35.399
 until it is bandaged.

00:16:37.719 --> 00:16:39.899
 So colorblindness does not work.

00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:42.179
 And people trying to enforce colorblindness,

00:16:42.199 --> 00:16:43.379
 and I'll talk about that in a few minutes,

00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:45.819
 that does not work either.

00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:48.139
 Okay.

00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:52.339
 Anti-racism.

00:16:53.179 --> 00:16:55.979
 So people can argue about

00:16:55.979 --> 00:16:56.979
 what anti-racism is.

00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:59.180
 And so what I did in my book

00:16:59.180 --> 00:17:01.080
 was I read,

00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:02.320
 at the time,

00:17:02.680 --> 00:17:03.639
 the popular books

00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:04.599
 on anti-racism.

00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:05.339
 You know,

00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:06.200
 I read Kenny's book,

00:17:06.259 --> 00:17:07.559
 I read D'Angelo's book,

00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:08.160
 you know,

00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:09.860
 I read White Supremacy and Me,

00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:11.620
 So You Want to Talk About Race.

00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:12.519
 So I read,

00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:14.039
 those were the popular books

00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:14.319
 at the time,

00:17:14.360 --> 00:17:15.140
 because I wanted to

00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:16.140
 not get what,

00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:17.960
 read what some academic wrote

00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:19.860
 that all of five other people read.

00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:21.460
 I wanted to read what other people,

00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:22.400
 because I know that,

00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:24.180
 I write popular stuff,

00:17:24.259 --> 00:17:25.019
 I write academic stuff.

00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:26.059
 I know it's going to get read more.

00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:26.900
 All right.

00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:27.960
 Sometimes the academic stuff

00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:28.519
 is very important,

00:17:28.579 --> 00:17:29.519
 but I know it's going to get read more.

00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:32.980
 So I read the popular books,

00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.339
 and I treated it

00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:35.460
 as a social scientist.

00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:37.319
 What were the common themes

00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:38.240
 in all these books?

00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.420
 To understand it.

00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:41.799
 To understand what anti-racism,

00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:43.720
 because that's what people are reading,

00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:44.900
 and that's how people are interpreting

00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:46.000
 what anti-racism is.

00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:49.019
 And I boiled it down to three,

00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:50.099
 there could be more,

00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:51.099
 but I want to keep it

00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:52.119
 as simple as possible.

00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.019
 So I boiled it down to three.

00:17:54.679 --> 00:17:55.559
 The first thing

00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.500
 is to be very proactive

00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:00.899
 in dealing with racism.

00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:04.019
 That racism is not something

00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:05.000
 that we sit back

00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:05.959
 and wait for it to happen

00:18:05.959 --> 00:18:06.899
 and then deal with it.

00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:09.519
 No, we deal with it proactively.

00:18:10.199 --> 00:18:12.719
 We're very aggressive stance on racism.

00:18:13.659 --> 00:18:14.899
 That that is one of the things

00:18:14.899 --> 00:18:15.939
 that was in all the books.

00:18:16.459 --> 00:18:16.839
 That, you know,

00:18:16.879 --> 00:18:18.619
 we can't hold back and wait.

00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:20.339
 No, it's out there,

00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:21.159
 we've got to seek it out

00:18:21.159 --> 00:18:22.279
 and we've got to defeat it.

00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:23.359
 Second,

00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:27.839
 work to dismantle

00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:29.559
 all aspects of racism.

00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:32.240
 So racism is not just

00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.699
 that you don't use the N-word.

00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:35.599
 Racism is in our social structures,

00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:36.919
 it's institutionalized,

00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:38.500
 it's in a lot of different dimensions,

00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:39.859
 a lot of different institutions,

00:18:40.419 --> 00:18:42.939
 and we have to be aggressive

00:18:42.939 --> 00:18:44.259
 and look at it

00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:45.539
 in its multiple facets.

00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.000
 And if this was

00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.639
 what anti-racism was left with,

00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:50.900
 I'd probably be,

00:18:51.060 --> 00:18:51.380
 you know what,

00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:52.280
 this is pretty good

00:18:52.280 --> 00:18:53.920
 because I agree with both of these things.

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:55.200
 It's the third one

00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:55.900
 that's the problem.

00:18:56.360 --> 00:18:57.440
 I'm just going to pre-warn you,

00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:59.400
 some people may not like this

00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:00.460
 and that's fine,

00:19:01.060 --> 00:19:02.840
 but I will challenge you

00:19:02.840 --> 00:19:03.980
 if you push back on this,

00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:05.060
 find me the example

00:19:05.060 --> 00:19:05.700
 of the anti-racism book

00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:06.480
 that doesn't do this,

00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:07.140
 this third one.

00:19:07.340 --> 00:19:08.540
 And this is where the problem is.

00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:13.259
 The responsibility of whites

00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:14.820
 is to do what people of color want.

00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:18.159
 When I read these books

00:19:18.159 --> 00:19:19.819
 that came out again and again and again,

00:19:19.879 --> 00:19:21.819
 now what they asked differed.

00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:23.079
 Sometimes they said,

00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:23.740
 well, you know,

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:24.579
 what whites should do

00:19:24.579 --> 00:19:26.159
 is deny their own racial identity

00:19:26.159 --> 00:19:27.819
 or what whites should do

00:19:27.819 --> 00:19:29.740
 is to provide money and support

00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:30.679
 or what whites should do

00:19:30.679 --> 00:19:32.240
 is to preach anti-racism

00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:32.919
 to other whites.

00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:35.220
 But it was never a conversation.

00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:37.500
 These white people,

00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:38.339
 this is what you ought to do.

00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:42.159
 And I think this is what

00:19:42.159 --> 00:19:43.619
 is the problem

00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:44.899
 with anti-racism.

00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.279
 Now, that's my opinion.

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:49.539
 But what does research say

00:19:49.539 --> 00:19:51.899
 about where anti-racism takes us?

00:19:53.419 --> 00:19:54.919
 Is that our approach successful?

00:19:56.839 --> 00:19:58.059
 Well, one of the things

00:19:58.059 --> 00:19:59.559
 that anti-racism talks about

00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:01.139
 is training people,

00:20:01.459 --> 00:20:02.059
 diversity training.

00:20:02.699 --> 00:20:03.899
 Now, not all diversity

00:20:03.899 --> 00:20:04.879
 is anti-racism,

00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:06.659
 but a lot of it is.

00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:07.659
 And here's what we know

00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:08.420
 about diversity training.

00:20:08.900 --> 00:20:10.240
 It has little long-term effect

00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:10.700
 on prejudice.

00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:11.960
 What will happen is

00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:13.400
 you'll go through

00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:14.160
 the diversity training

00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.740
 and if we take a survey

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:17.740
 right afterwards,

00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:19.420
 you will see a reduction

00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:20.259
 of prejudice.

00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:21.400
 And then we do one

00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:22.180
 six months later

00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:23.500
 and it'll be going back.

00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:24.200
 And by the way,

00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:24.980
 this is not a single study.

00:20:25.040 --> 00:20:25.600
 This is what we call

00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:26.700
 meta-analysis.

00:20:27.360 --> 00:20:27.960
 And meta-analysis

00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:29.040
 is multiple studies

00:20:29.040 --> 00:20:31.040
 and we see the total effect of that.

00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:33.060
 So this is not just one study

00:20:33.060 --> 00:20:34.259
 which will have some weaknesses.

00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.580
 This is a lot of studies

00:20:35.580 --> 00:20:37.180
 showing that

00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:38.940
 diversity has little

00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:40.000
 long-term effect on prejudice.

00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:40.920
 It's kind of like

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:41.700
 when you send your kid off

00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.580
 to Bible camp.

00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:43.799
 Right?

00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:45.100
 Kid comes back,

00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:46.500
 kid makes up his bed now

00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:47.799
 and the kid eats the vegetables

00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:49.420
 and the kid's,

00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:50.019
 you know,

00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:51.740
 and then six months later

00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:52.700
 the kid is, you know,

00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:53.980
 no longer making up the bed

00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:54.740
 and, you know,

00:20:55.120 --> 00:20:57.259
 and I hate that

00:20:57.259 --> 00:20:59.019
 that has brown stuff in it,

00:20:59.060 --> 00:20:59.700
 you know, all that.

00:20:59.820 --> 00:21:00.700
 It goes back.

00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:02.180
 And I think that's the effect

00:21:02.180 --> 00:21:03.240
 of diversity training.

00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:05.100
 It gives you a temporary high

00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:06.339
 and it goes away.

00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:08.719
 Now,

00:21:09.179 --> 00:21:09.599
 you might say,

00:21:09.679 --> 00:21:09.919
 well,

00:21:10.139 --> 00:21:10.579
 at least you get

00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:11.359
 that temporary high.

00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:12.399
 But the problem is

00:21:12.399 --> 00:21:13.039
 there are also

00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:16.359
 some problems

00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.139
 with diversity training

00:21:18.139 --> 00:21:18.599
 as well.

00:21:23.439 --> 00:21:25.240
 Am I doing the wrong one?

00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:27.480
 Oh, there we go.

00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:27.759
 Okay.

00:21:29.259 --> 00:21:29.980
 For example,

00:21:30.939 --> 00:21:32.000
 this research found

00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:32.619
 that diversity training

00:21:32.619 --> 00:21:33.819
 can generate a backlash,

00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:35.519
 which means that

00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:36.900
 for some whites,

00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.440
 as with diversity training,

00:21:38.819 --> 00:21:39.880
 they actually have

00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:41.099
 less respect

00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:41.819
 for people of color

00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:43.779
 than they did before.

00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:46.240
 They feel resentful

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.859
 about what's happened.

00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:50.059
 Now,

00:21:50.299 --> 00:21:50.680
 I don't think

00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:51.680
 it has to be this way.

00:21:51.819 --> 00:21:52.319
 In fact,

00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:53.380
 I think diversity training

00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:53.960
 can be done

00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:55.539
 in which that does not happen.

00:21:56.619 --> 00:21:57.460
 But we're looking at

00:21:57.460 --> 00:21:58.359
 what we're doing right now.

00:21:59.240 --> 00:21:59.900
 And we're fueled

00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:00.800
 by certain assumptions.

00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:02.060
 This is the result

00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:02.700
 that we're going to get.

00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:05.700
 Here's something else

00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:06.759
 that I found interesting.

00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:08.280
 This research found

00:22:08.280 --> 00:22:09.300
 that when you teach

00:22:09.300 --> 00:22:10.000
 about privilege,

00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:10.660
 white privilege,

00:22:10.800 --> 00:22:11.540
 because that was

00:22:11.540 --> 00:22:12.140
 a big theme

00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:12.900
 in a lot of the stuff

00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:13.500
 on anti-racism.

00:22:13.540 --> 00:22:13.740
 When you teach

00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:14.259
 about white privilege,

00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:15.420
 you can create

00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:16.800
 less sympathy for whites,

00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.240
 but your sympathy

00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:18.840
 for people of color

00:22:18.840 --> 00:22:20.120
 does not increase.

00:22:20.780 --> 00:22:21.940
 And what she found,

00:22:22.080 --> 00:22:22.860
 she and her team found,

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.180
 was that you do this

00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:26.460
 talk, you know,

00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:27.580
 training on privilege.

00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:29.939
 Marginalized people of color,

00:22:30.399 --> 00:22:31.279
 people don't feel

00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:32.359
 any more sympathetic

00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:33.059
 for them.

00:22:33.439 --> 00:22:34.079
 People who are already

00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:35.059
 sympathetic don't feel

00:22:35.059 --> 00:22:35.639
 any more because

00:22:35.639 --> 00:22:36.279
 they already were there.

00:22:36.639 --> 00:22:37.399
 People who are not

00:22:37.399 --> 00:22:38.019
 sympathetic to them,

00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:38.859
 they don't get

00:22:38.859 --> 00:22:39.339
 more sympathetic.

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:42.419
 But people who were

00:22:42.419 --> 00:22:44.259
 sympathetic to people of color,

00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.740
 you teach them about privilege,

00:22:46.139 --> 00:22:46.899
 they feel less sympathetic

00:22:46.899 --> 00:22:48.220
 to marginalized whites,

00:22:48.779 --> 00:22:49.619
 homeless whites,

00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:51.299
 whites of substance abuse.

00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:53.899
 They're less sympathetic.

00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:55.839
 Because, hey,

00:22:55.899 --> 00:22:56.379
 if they have privilege,

00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:57.279
 why are you homeless?

00:22:57.579 --> 00:23:00.419
 So this becomes

00:23:00.419 --> 00:23:01.139
 a dysfunction.

00:23:01.899 --> 00:23:02.779
 Then, once again,

00:23:02.899 --> 00:23:03.619
 I think there are ways

00:23:03.619 --> 00:23:04.299
 you can teach about privilege

00:23:04.299 --> 00:23:05.179
 that doesn't do this,

00:23:06.199 --> 00:23:07.199
 but you have to be careful.

00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:12.799
 This is, to me,

00:23:12.899 --> 00:23:14.079
 this study is almost

00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:14.839
 the dagger

00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:16.579
 in the effectiveness

00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:17.639
 of anti-racism training.

00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.079
 What this researcher did

00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.159
 is that they looked

00:23:22.159 --> 00:23:22.859
 at companies,

00:23:23.379 --> 00:23:24.220
 and they asked the question,

00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:25.659
 how can we,

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:26.399
 how can the companies

00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:27.720
 increase the number

00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.759
 of managers of color?

00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:30.740
 So they looked

00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:31.200
 at the companies,

00:23:31.280 --> 00:23:32.180
 they looked at the number

00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:32.840
 of managers of color,

00:23:33.500 --> 00:23:35.080
 then they went away,

00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:36.759
 came back five years,

00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:39.220
 and looked at who had increased,

00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:39.580
 who didn't,

00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:40.940
 and what techniques they used.

00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:41.860
 You know,

00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:43.340
 those who did

00:23:43.340 --> 00:23:44.940
 mandatory diversity training

00:23:44.940 --> 00:23:47.040
 actually had fewer managers

00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:48.019
 of color five years later.

00:23:48.019 --> 00:23:51.019
 Those that had grievance committees

00:23:51.019 --> 00:23:53.079
 had less managers of color

00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:53.839
 five years later.

00:23:54.019 --> 00:23:54.619
 Now, these are the things,

00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:55.960
 efforts in order to increase

00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:56.500
 managers of color.

00:23:57.019 --> 00:23:58.039
 Those that said,

00:23:58.180 --> 00:23:58.740
 here's how you have

00:23:58.740 --> 00:23:59.559
 to hire people,

00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:01.720
 dictated to the managers

00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:02.559
 how they have to hire people,

00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:04.000
 had fewer managers of color

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:04.740
 five years later.

00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.400
 The ones who,

00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:09.379
 and I'm going to get

00:24:09.379 --> 00:24:09.779
 into the second,

00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:11.160
 who engaged those,

00:24:11.639 --> 00:24:12.440
 because there were companies

00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:13.079
 that actually increased

00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:13.700
 managers of color.

00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:14.639
 Those are the ones

00:24:14.639 --> 00:24:15.359
 who actually went

00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:16.319
 to their current managers

00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:17.500
 and engaged them,

00:24:17.959 --> 00:24:19.459
 rather than dictate to them.

00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:21.419
 They're the ones

00:24:21.419 --> 00:24:22.259
 who actually increased

00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:22.959
 managers of color.

00:24:24.219 --> 00:24:26.339
 So, as a very practical manner,

00:24:27.639 --> 00:24:28.339
 techniques that,

00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:30.559
 of trying to get people

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:31.259
 to do stuff,

00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:32.819
 actually could backfire.

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.699
 So, anti-racism,

00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:39.699
 in some ways,

00:24:41.379 --> 00:24:42.839
 it seems like a good theory,

00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:43.959
 but it doesn't work

00:24:43.959 --> 00:24:44.819
 in the real world.

00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:46.099
 There's other studies

00:24:46.099 --> 00:24:46.559
 that I'm not even,

00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:46.859
 you know,

00:24:46.899 --> 00:24:48.339
 there's studies I put up there

00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:50.139
 about how diversity training

00:24:50.139 --> 00:24:51.659
 actually creates a compliance

00:24:51.659 --> 00:24:53.059
 among people.

00:24:53.139 --> 00:24:54.059
 So, they don't think

00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:54.480
 there's a problem

00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.519
 because now we've had training.

00:24:56.819 --> 00:24:57.639
 And how when people

00:24:57.639 --> 00:24:59.779
 are given social justice

00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:01.960
 reasons for hires,

00:25:02.399 --> 00:25:02.960
 that those people

00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.799
 who are hired then

00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:04.839
 are seen as less competent.

00:25:06.419 --> 00:25:07.720
 Look, this is the real world, folks.

00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:09.799
 This is what the research

00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:10.339
 shows you.

00:25:10.879 --> 00:25:11.480
 Go back to those

00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:12.240
 anti-racism books

00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:13.480
 and see if they have

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:14.299
 any research that

00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:15.740
 anti-racism actually works.

00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.259
 That'd be my challenge

00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:19.599
 because when I read

00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.059
 those books

00:25:20.059 --> 00:25:20.779
 and they don't.

00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:21.899
 Now, maybe there's

00:25:21.899 --> 00:25:22.299
 a book out there

00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:22.819
 that I've not read

00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:23.319
 that does,

00:25:23.460 --> 00:25:24.059
 but the books

00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:24.859
 that I did don't.

00:25:26.539 --> 00:25:26.839
 So,

00:25:27.379 --> 00:25:29.279
 what's happening?

00:25:30.659 --> 00:25:31.440
 Both these approaches

00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.259
 lack something.

00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:35.139
 Now, I'm going to get

00:25:35.139 --> 00:25:36.240
 all theological on you.

00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:38.940
 You had the science,

00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:39.340
 so now you get

00:25:39.340 --> 00:25:40.420
 the preacher.

00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.720
 The scientist is better

00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:42.220
 than the preacher,

00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:42.740
 by the way.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:46.840
 Human depravity.

00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:50.500
 Here's my argument.

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:52.100
 Now, both of us

00:25:52.100 --> 00:25:52.539
 will talk about

00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:53.100
 human depravity

00:25:53.100 --> 00:25:53.840
 of certain groups,

00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:54.779
 but human depravity

00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:55.340
 doesn't start

00:25:55.340 --> 00:25:55.600
 when we're talking

00:25:55.600 --> 00:25:56.019
 about other groups.

00:25:56.100 --> 00:25:56.460
 Human depravity

00:25:56.460 --> 00:25:56.880
 starts when I talk

00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:57.420
 about myself.

00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:00.580
 I start with myself

00:26:00.580 --> 00:26:00.920
 when I talk

00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:01.740
 about human depravity,

00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:02.779
 and then I look

00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:03.259
 at human depravity

00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:03.680
 of others.

00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:05.700
 When we recognize

00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:06.420
 human depravity

00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:08.100
 crosses boundaries,

00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:09.900
 it changes how

00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:10.880
 we look at things,

00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:11.960
 and it changes

00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:13.120
 the sort of answers,

00:26:13.620 --> 00:26:14.620
 the sort of ways

00:26:14.620 --> 00:26:15.279
 we approach it.

00:26:17.620 --> 00:26:18.259
 I think there's

00:26:18.259 --> 00:26:19.240
 a core element

00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:20.220
 of being a Christian.

00:26:20.340 --> 00:26:21.080
 There's all sorts

00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:21.759
 of scriptural backing

00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.600
 for human depravity.

00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:23.779
 I'll just throw

00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:24.560
 some of these up there.

00:26:25.580 --> 00:26:26.519
 Think about it this way.

00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:29.579
 If we did not have

00:26:29.579 --> 00:26:30.379
 this human depravity,

00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:31.920
 if we could get there

00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:32.240
 on our own,

00:26:32.299 --> 00:26:33.000
 we wouldn't need Jesus.

00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:34.920
 We could earn

00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:35.619
 our own salvation.

00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:38.119
 This is a core element

00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:40.139
 of what our faith is.

00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:40.960
 This is not just

00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:42.559
 some sort of side issue

00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:43.400
 when you think about it.

00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:44.359
 We don't think about it

00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:44.980
 a lot because who wants

00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:45.339
 to think about

00:26:45.339 --> 00:26:46.220
 how depraved they are,

00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:48.700
 but it is very key.

00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.400
 When we look at it,

00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:53.720
 it is an incredible

00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:54.740
 difference between

00:26:54.740 --> 00:26:55.720
 how Christians see

00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:56.240
 the world,

00:26:57.259 --> 00:26:57.799
 and how,

00:26:58.180 --> 00:26:58.500
 I would say,

00:26:59.079 --> 00:26:59.619
 those are more

00:26:59.619 --> 00:27:00.539
 secular to see the world.

00:27:00.639 --> 00:27:01.139
 Maybe you can find

00:27:01.139 --> 00:27:01.660
 other religions

00:27:01.660 --> 00:27:02.799
 that also appreciate it,

00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:03.579
 but if you have

00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:04.859
 a more humanistic approach,

00:27:05.259 --> 00:27:05.960
 it's very different.

00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:07.379
 In grad school,

00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:10.019
 I was introduced

00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:10.440
 to the notion

00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:11.279
 of human perfectibility

00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:11.799
 as we say

00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:12.639
 the Enlightenment thinkers.

00:27:13.379 --> 00:27:14.200
 That had an impression

00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:14.960
 on me because I was

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:15.960
 a Christian at the time

00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:17.019
 and I was able

00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:17.859
 to contrast that

00:27:17.859 --> 00:27:18.740
 to my understanding

00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:19.900
 of the nature of humans.

00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:21.720
 I want to talk

00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:22.339
 about that a little bit

00:27:22.339 --> 00:27:22.819
 because I think

00:27:22.819 --> 00:27:23.539
 that this really

00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:24.619
 is very telling

00:27:24.619 --> 00:27:26.220
 because when you start

00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:27.220
 with one premise

00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:27.940
 as opposed to another,

00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:28.619
 you come to

00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:29.319
 different conclusions.

00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:31.139
 Human perfectibility.

00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:33.420
 Humans become better

00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:34.180
 with education.

00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:35.940
 The idea is

00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:37.259
 if we educate people,

00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:39.079
 they will learn

00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:40.279
 how to become better

00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:41.579
 and our society

00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:42.500
 will become better.

00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:43.839
 All right?

00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:45.059
 So education

00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:46.119
 is the solution

00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.139
 that if we educate people

00:27:48.139 --> 00:27:48.659
 the right way,

00:27:48.740 --> 00:27:49.799
 they'll become less racist,

00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:51.480
 they'll become less sexist,

00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:53.639
 they'll become more giving,

00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:54.299
 more loving.

00:27:54.700 --> 00:27:55.579
 We need to educate.

00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:57.460
 People are a blank slate

00:27:57.460 --> 00:27:59.079
 and with the right education.

00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:00.819
 And this is part

00:28:00.819 --> 00:28:01.500
 of the philosophy

00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:02.200
 of the Enlightenment movement

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:03.240
 and you can see it today.

00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.240
 What's going wrong

00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:04.440
 with people

00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:04.879
 who haven't gotten

00:28:04.879 --> 00:28:05.579
 bad education

00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:06.460
 or no education.

00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:08.960
 And you'll hear that.

00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:09.460
 You know,

00:28:09.539 --> 00:28:10.359
 that is the problem.

00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:11.200
 We've got to change

00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:11.480
 the education.

00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:12.159
 We've got to socialize

00:28:12.159 --> 00:28:12.839
 people differently.

00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:13.899
 I mean,

00:28:13.919 --> 00:28:14.419
 what is the argument

00:28:14.419 --> 00:28:15.319
 in the school system?

00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:15.879
 We've got to socialize

00:28:15.879 --> 00:28:17.000
 people differently, right?

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:17.059
 Right?

00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:23.839
 Here's another one.

00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.359
 Another aspect.

00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:27.480
 Humans are rational creatures

00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:27.919
 who could become

00:28:27.919 --> 00:28:29.079
 convinced to become better.

00:28:30.019 --> 00:28:30.379
 Rationality.

00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:31.019
 In other words,

00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:31.940
 the idea was rationality

00:28:31.940 --> 00:28:32.879
 is going to replace religion.

00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:35.000
 Instead of religious superstition,

00:28:35.059 --> 00:28:36.000
 we're going to be rational.

00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:36.899
 Now,

00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:37.700
 at the time

00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:38.500
 I was in grad school,

00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:39.440
 I didn't have something

00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.019
 I have today

00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:40.839
 and that's kids.

00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.339
 Because if I had kids

00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:44.839
 at that time,

00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:45.359
 I would have talked

00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.339
 about rationality

00:28:46.339 --> 00:28:48.220
 because kids

00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:48.839
 are not rational.

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:51.819
 But the notion is

00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:52.759
 we're rational,

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:54.200
 you educate us correctly,

00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.799
 we'll grow up

00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.059
 to become good,

00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:57.759
 solid citizens

00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:58.960
 and we'll change society.

00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:01.180
 There's a lot of different

00:29:01.180 --> 00:29:01.960
 ways this can go.

00:29:02.419 --> 00:29:03.779
 The most common way

00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.259
 that people recognize

00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:06.319
 is when you understand

00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:06.899
 Marxism,

00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:07.960
 what Marxism is about.

00:29:08.639 --> 00:29:08.940
 It's about,

00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:10.700
 you change that economy

00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:13.440
 to a rational economy

00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:14.879
 based on communism,

00:29:15.339 --> 00:29:16.759
 people will be socialized

00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:17.419
 in a better way.

00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:18.379
 And it's not just

00:29:18.379 --> 00:29:19.159
 about changing the economy.

00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:20.160
 If you understand Marxism,

00:29:20.540 --> 00:29:21.080
 the structure

00:29:21.080 --> 00:29:21.820
 and superstructure,

00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:23.620
 the economy is a superstructure,

00:29:23.800 --> 00:29:25.180
 everything's built upon that

00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:26.960
 and everything gets better.

00:29:27.060 --> 00:29:27.660
 Not just the economy,

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:28.500
 everything gets better.

00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:30.680
 So that is something

00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:31.279
 that is,

00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:33.620
 you don't have to do

00:29:33.620 --> 00:29:34.360
 this Marxism,

00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:35.580
 but that is the notion

00:29:35.580 --> 00:29:36.080
 that we have.

00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:36.940
 We change,

00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:37.980
 we educate people,

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:39.560
 things will get better.

00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:42.480
 We can make humans

00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:43.120
 perfectible.

00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.880
 Humans have the ability

00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:47.380
 to overcome

00:29:47.380 --> 00:29:49.120
 our problems.

00:29:50.540 --> 00:29:50.980
 Now,

00:29:51.080 --> 00:29:51.920
 here's where it really

00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:53.020
 comes down

00:29:53.020 --> 00:29:53.620
 when it comes to

00:29:53.620 --> 00:29:54.680
 looking at racial issues.

00:29:55.900 --> 00:29:57.440
 If you take that mentality,

00:29:58.160 --> 00:29:59.800
 if our insight

00:29:59.800 --> 00:30:00.740
 is taken,

00:30:01.800 --> 00:30:03.100
 is adopted,

00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:04.320
 we can move to the end

00:30:04.320 --> 00:30:05.280
 of racial alienation.

00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.000
 If you adopt

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:07.900
 anti-racism

00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:09.200
 and people become anti-racist,

00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:10.680
 we will conquer this.

00:30:10.800 --> 00:30:11.740
 You need to come follow

00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:12.480
 our anti-racism.

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.160
 Or,

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:14.099
 if you follow

00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:15.019
 colorblindness,

00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:15.660
 you know,

00:30:16.360 --> 00:30:17.099
 people can see it

00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:18.120
 easier with anti-racism,

00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:19.200
 but it's just as strong

00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.000
 as colorblindness.

00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:21.860
 About a year,

00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:23.660
 maybe a year and a half ago,

00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:25.000
 I was on Facebook

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.140
 seeking knowledge.

00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:32.420
 Because I have,

00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:33.740
 my oldest is a seven-year-old,

00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:34.500
 just turned seven,

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:35.420
 and,

00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:36.299
 you know,

00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:37.240
 I was thinking about

00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:37.960
 talking to him

00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:39.140
 about racial issues.

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:40.400
 And,

00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:40.980
 you know,

00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.000
 there's a lot of stuff

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.079
 out there on birds and bees,

00:30:43.220 --> 00:30:43.420
 which,

00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:44.900
 talking about sex,

00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:45.839
 which I'm grateful about,

00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:46.720
 because that's another topic

00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:47.440
 I need to talk to him about.

00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:48.720
 Not excited about that one either.

00:30:51.019 --> 00:30:52.200
 But there was nothing on race

00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.420
 that I was comfortable with.

00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:54.079
 And so,

00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.259
 I went on Facebook

00:30:55.259 --> 00:30:56.980
 and I just put a query out there,

00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:58.299
 and sometimes I get on Facebook

00:30:58.299 --> 00:31:00.099
 and I just kind of put stuff out there

00:31:00.099 --> 00:31:01.259
 and let people fight over it,

00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:01.980
 and I just have fun.

00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:04.720
 But I was actually being honest,

00:31:04.819 --> 00:31:05.059
 and I was,

00:31:05.059 --> 00:31:05.559
 you know,

00:31:05.859 --> 00:31:08.299
 I know that I am a race scholar,

00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:09.299
 but this is the first time

00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:10.299
 I've had a five-year-old.

00:31:10.299 --> 00:31:12.500
 And I'm just like

00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:13.059
 a clusisist parent

00:31:13.059 --> 00:31:13.819
 like the rest of y'all.

00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:14.680
 Those of you

00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:15.680
 who are raising kids of color,

00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:16.559
 how do you talk to them

00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:17.259
 about racial issues?

00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:18.619
 What's your approach on that?

00:31:18.639 --> 00:31:19.659
 I just want to get some advice.

00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:20.879
 Well,

00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:21.539
 on top of the advice,

00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:22.819
 I got a lot of people

00:31:22.819 --> 00:31:24.119
 pushing back,

00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:25.359
 and their pushback was this.

00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:26.799
 Why are you talking

00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:27.579
 to your kid about race?

00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:29.799
 Why are you even

00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:30.419
 bringing up race?

00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:31.480
 Don't worry about

00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:32.539
 marries and good

00:31:32.539 --> 00:31:33.859
 black Christian men.

00:31:34.379 --> 00:31:34.980
 We're about raising

00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:35.819
 good Christian men,

00:31:35.919 --> 00:31:36.359
 and that's all

00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:36.960
 you have to worry about.

00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.120
 Now,

00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:40.160
 why were they telling,

00:31:40.299 --> 00:31:40.600
 why were,

00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:42.759
 and as you probably imagine,

00:31:42.819 --> 00:31:43.380
 most people who are saying

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:43.980
 this were white,

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.579
 so why were these people

00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:46.779
 telling me as an African-American

00:31:46.779 --> 00:31:47.680
 how to raise my kid?

00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:50.039
 It wasn't just rudeness.

00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:50.940
 It's,

00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:52.160
 they believed that

00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.720
 if we all become colorblind,

00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:54.860
 we'll end racism.

00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:56.740
 You adopt

00:31:56.740 --> 00:31:58.319
 our perspective,

00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:00.279
 we end the problem.

00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.879
 Now,

00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:06.039
 contrast this

00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:06.460
 with the notion

00:32:06.460 --> 00:32:07.200
 of human depravity.

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:10.299
 Human depravity.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.440
 Humans are inherently selfish,

00:32:13.879 --> 00:32:15.259
 and that cannot be taken away

00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:15.920
 with education.

00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:17.960
 A couple of colleagues of mine

00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:19.420
 did some really interesting research,

00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:20.839
 because here's what we know.

00:32:21.379 --> 00:32:23.759
 This is like a foundational

00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.819
 knowledge in sociology.

00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:25.960
 Education makes things better.

00:32:27.139 --> 00:32:27.420
 So,

00:32:27.639 --> 00:32:28.619
 you look at education

00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:29.339
 and race,

00:32:29.459 --> 00:32:29.819
 racism.

00:32:30.639 --> 00:32:31.939
 And every study

00:32:31.939 --> 00:32:33.219
 that uses education

00:32:33.219 --> 00:32:33.979
 as a variable,

00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:35.839
 as what we call

00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:36.619
 an independent variable,

00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:37.679
 measuring some race

00:32:37.679 --> 00:32:39.739
 aspect of racism

00:32:39.739 --> 00:32:40.739
 as a dependent variable,

00:32:41.219 --> 00:32:42.439
 every time education,

00:32:42.639 --> 00:32:43.539
 the more education people have,

00:32:43.579 --> 00:32:44.500
 the less racist they are.

00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.139
 No matter how you measure it,

00:32:46.199 --> 00:32:46.879
 the more education they have,

00:32:46.899 --> 00:32:47.779
 the less racist people are.

00:32:48.159 --> 00:32:48.379
 So,

00:32:48.459 --> 00:32:49.019
 my colleagues said,

00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:49.219
 well,

00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:49.859
 that's interesting.

00:32:50.679 --> 00:32:51.119
 So,

00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:52.159
 what do people actually do?

00:32:53.159 --> 00:32:53.479
 So,

00:32:53.479 --> 00:32:55.239
 they looked at questions on,

00:32:56.579 --> 00:32:57.219
 would you,

00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:58.880
 how willing are you,

00:32:59.039 --> 00:32:59.980
 now these are just whites,

00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:01.319
 how willing are you to move

00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:02.240
 into a neighborhood

00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.700
 that's racially mixed?

00:33:04.059 --> 00:33:04.920
 How willing are you

00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:06.519
 to send your kids

00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:07.319
 to racially mixed school?

00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:08.680
 And,

00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:09.380
 once again,

00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:10.680
 more educated whites are,

00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:12.339
 more willing they are

00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:12.920
 to send their kids

00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:13.799
 to racially mixed school,

00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:14.740
 more willing they are

00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:15.620
 to live in a racially

00:33:15.620 --> 00:33:16.180
 integrated neighborhood.

00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:17.160
 So,

00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.059
 then they looked at

00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:18.680
 some data

00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:19.880
 to see whether or not

00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:20.600
 education actually

00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:21.500
 did have this effect.

00:33:22.620 --> 00:33:22.980
 And,

00:33:23.100 --> 00:33:23.759
 they looked at the data

00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.819
 to see where did whites

00:33:24.819 --> 00:33:25.779
 actually live,

00:33:25.779 --> 00:33:26.440
 and where did they

00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:26.759
 send their kids

00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:27.200
 to school.

00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:28.519
 In fact,

00:33:28.539 --> 00:33:29.480
 the more educated whites

00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:29.839
 were,

00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:31.119
 the less likely they were

00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:31.639
 to send their kids

00:33:31.639 --> 00:33:32.980
 to an integrated school,

00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:34.039
 the less likely they were

00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:34.759
 to live in an integrated

00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:35.079
 neighborhood.

00:33:37.059 --> 00:33:37.399
 So,

00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:38.039
 what's happening here?

00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:38.819
 The whites are saying,

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:39.379
 yes,

00:33:39.639 --> 00:33:40.319
 I'm more educated,

00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:41.240
 I'll send my kids

00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:41.779
 to these schools,

00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:42.619
 I'll live in these neighborhoods,

00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:44.660
 when actually comes,

00:33:45.019 --> 00:33:45.200
 you know,

00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:46.420
 rubber hits the road,

00:33:46.639 --> 00:33:46.980
 no.

00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:47.079
 No.

00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:50.920
 What if education

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:51.279
 doesn't make you

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:51.940
 a better person?

00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:54.319
 What if education

00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:55.359
 gives you more ability

00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:56.979
 to hide your sin?

00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:01.259
 There's no guarantee

00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:02.479
 education makes you

00:34:02.479 --> 00:34:03.139
 a better person.

00:34:08.019 --> 00:34:08.960
 Only by accounting

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.759
 for our desire

00:34:09.759 --> 00:34:10.460
 to protect

00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:11.859
 our own self-interest

00:34:11.859 --> 00:34:12.900
 can we deal

00:34:12.900 --> 00:34:13.679
 with group conflict.

00:34:14.619 --> 00:34:16.119
 We have to be honest.

00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:18.339
 Everyone comes in here

00:34:18.339 --> 00:34:20.079
 with a self-interest,

00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.019
 regardless of your race

00:34:22.019 --> 00:34:22.719
 or position.

00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:25.320
 And that can take over

00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.320
 and that can create

00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:28.000
 a situation

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:28.780
 that's untenable.

00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:30.940
 We have to find a way

00:34:30.940 --> 00:34:31.820
 of dealing with that.

00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.500
 We have to

00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:37.759
 have some checks

00:34:37.759 --> 00:34:38.920
 on us

00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:40.320
 as we enter

00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:41.340
 into these conversations.

00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:42.440
 Doesn't mean that

00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:43.280
 we don't get to

00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.860
 initiate what we want

00:34:44.860 --> 00:34:45.400
 and desire.

00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:46.400
 Of course we do.

00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.920
 but we are not

00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:49.700
 going to get everything.

00:34:50.539 --> 00:34:51.619
 And my experience is

00:34:51.619 --> 00:34:52.619
 when humans get everything,

00:34:53.059 --> 00:34:53.680
 that's usually

00:34:53.680 --> 00:34:54.599
 not a good thing.

00:34:58.059 --> 00:34:58.740
 Only holding

00:34:58.740 --> 00:34:59.700
 each other accountable

00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:00.820
 can we find solutions

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:01.780
 for racial alienation.

00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:03.500
 Here's the crux of it.

00:35:05.200 --> 00:35:06.700
 We have to find ways

00:35:06.700 --> 00:35:08.280
 of holding each other

00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:08.780
 accountable

00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:09.780
 and working together

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:10.579
 to find solutions.

00:35:10.579 --> 00:35:12.900
 what happens

00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:14.079
 is that

00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:15.079
 one group

00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:16.199
 will win out

00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:17.199
 for a period of time.

00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:18.239
 Just for simplicity

00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:18.519
 to say,

00:35:18.579 --> 00:35:19.319
 let's say the colorblind

00:35:19.319 --> 00:35:20.340
 versus the anti-racism group.

00:35:21.279 --> 00:35:22.219
 One group will win out

00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:23.000
 for a little while.

00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:24.400
 The other group,

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.460
 they are shut out now

00:35:27.460 --> 00:35:28.059
 and they're going to

00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:28.799
 do everything they can

00:35:28.799 --> 00:35:30.119
 to sabotage that group.

00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:32.119
 And then when they will win

00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:33.079
 and the other group

00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:33.779
 will fight it.

00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:35.340
 And then that's

00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:35.819
 what we're doing.

00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:38.039
 And you can look at

00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:38.599
 issue after issue.

00:35:39.299 --> 00:35:40.099
 What's up with

00:35:40.099 --> 00:35:41.219
 the school board stuff?

00:35:42.319 --> 00:35:42.819
 Well, let me tell you

00:35:42.819 --> 00:35:43.239
 what's up with

00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:44.059
 the school board stuff.

00:35:44.619 --> 00:35:44.799
 You know,

00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:45.799
 while all these protests.

00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.860
 And I'm not getting

00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:47.759
 into what CRT is

00:35:47.759 --> 00:35:48.400
 or anything like that.

00:35:48.539 --> 00:35:48.659
 You know,

00:35:48.699 --> 00:35:49.420
 you want to bring

00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:49.819
 up the questions,

00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:50.259
 that's fine.

00:35:50.759 --> 00:35:51.219
 I'm just saying

00:35:51.219 --> 00:35:51.759
 this is what's

00:35:51.759 --> 00:35:52.619
 happening as a sociologist.

00:35:53.319 --> 00:35:54.159
 For a while,

00:35:54.339 --> 00:35:55.400
 a group of educators

00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:57.420
 could do what they want to.

00:35:57.500 --> 00:35:58.079
 And so they decide

00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:58.779
 on racial issues,

00:35:58.860 --> 00:35:59.299
 they're going to

00:35:59.299 --> 00:36:00.420
 institute programs

00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:01.599
 that are more progressives.

00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:02.099
 I would say more

00:36:02.099 --> 00:36:03.299
 anti-racism than CRT.

00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:05.960
 The other group

00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:07.559
 caught wind of it

00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:09.259
 and now they're protesting.

00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:09.960
 And now they've

00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:10.639
 gotten some wins.

00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:12.820
 They took out,

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:13.159
 you know,

00:36:13.219 --> 00:36:13.639
 a governor.

00:36:14.219 --> 00:36:15.679
 And that was a major issue.

00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:16.480
 They're going to get

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.179
 some more wins.

00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:19.579
 Because they don't have

00:36:19.579 --> 00:36:20.320
 any skin in the game.

00:36:21.299 --> 00:36:21.820
 They didn't have

00:36:21.820 --> 00:36:22.659
 any say in this.

00:36:23.059 --> 00:36:24.159
 Why not tear it down?

00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:25.880
 And they'll get some wins.

00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:26.619
 And then the other group

00:36:26.619 --> 00:36:27.639
 will come fighting back again.

00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:28.739
 And then we'll go

00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:29.679
 again and again and again.

00:36:30.739 --> 00:36:31.599
 And that's what's happening.

00:36:31.659 --> 00:36:31.980
 We don't have

00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:32.579
 anything sustainable.

00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:36.659
 So,

00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:37.500
 what I call

00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:37.980
 a mutual accountability

00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:38.639
 approach or a

00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:39.259
 collaborative conversations

00:36:39.259 --> 00:36:40.500
 approach is a

00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:41.420
 Christian-based approach.

00:36:41.980 --> 00:36:42.400
 I'm going to stop

00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:42.759
 for a second.

00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:43.900
 It's Christian-based,

00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:45.139
 but anyone can do it

00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:45.980
 if they're willing to.

00:36:46.299 --> 00:36:47.119
 It's kind of like forgiveness.

00:36:48.139 --> 00:36:48.360
 I mean,

00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:49.279
 forgiveness is kind of

00:36:49.279 --> 00:36:50.139
 Christian-based value,

00:36:50.259 --> 00:36:51.119
 but anyone can forgive.

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.179
 And what science shows you

00:36:53.179 --> 00:36:54.380
 is the more you forgive,

00:36:54.860 --> 00:36:56.039
 the healthier you are.

00:36:57.279 --> 00:36:57.480
 Okay?

00:36:57.619 --> 00:36:57.840
 So,

00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:58.779
 even though it's

00:36:58.779 --> 00:36:59.299
 Christian-based,

00:36:59.440 --> 00:36:59.860
 I'm not saying

00:36:59.860 --> 00:37:00.639
 only Christians can do it.

00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:00.879
 In fact,

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:02.779
 I hope we Christians do it,

00:37:02.839 --> 00:37:03.400
 and then I hope

00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:04.619
 other people do it.

00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:05.119
 But if other people

00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.739
 want to come and

00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:06.859
 me talk to them about it,

00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:07.359
 I will.

00:37:08.299 --> 00:37:08.940
 Because I think

00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:09.879
 it's important to do.

00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:11.559
 Whereby we recognize

00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:12.299
 that all people

00:37:12.299 --> 00:37:13.719
 always have a sin nature

00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:15.639
 that has to be accounted for.

00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:16.139
 Thus,

00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:16.779
 everyone has to work

00:37:16.779 --> 00:37:17.359
 towards healthy

00:37:17.359 --> 00:37:18.179
 interracial communications

00:37:18.179 --> 00:37:19.259
 to solve racial problems.

00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.119
 Here's where

00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:20.920
 the mutual problem

00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:21.739
 comes in.

00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:22.400
 And here's where

00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:23.759
 every single person

00:37:23.759 --> 00:37:24.739
 has its responsibility.

00:37:26.339 --> 00:37:27.859
 We all work together

00:37:27.859 --> 00:37:28.659
 to have healthy

00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:29.339
 communications.

00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:30.620
 say,

00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:31.780
 I want to make sure

00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:33.160
 I'm being clear on this.

00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:34.519
 I'm not saying

00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:35.360
 the solutions

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:36.440
 have to be mutual.

00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:37.780
 In fact,

00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:41.800
 my inclination

00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:42.480
 is they probably

00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:43.180
 won't be,

00:37:43.300 --> 00:37:44.320
 at least most of them

00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:44.660
 won't be,

00:37:44.720 --> 00:37:45.320
 some may be.

00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:47.000
 I'm not saying

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:47.600
 the solutions

00:37:47.600 --> 00:37:47.920
 have to be

00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:48.320
 some sort of

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:49.200
 colorblindness.

00:37:49.600 --> 00:37:49.980
 It has to be

00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:50.480
 on the table.

00:37:51.100 --> 00:37:51.760
 If people bring on the table,

00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:52.059
 it has to be

00:37:52.059 --> 00:37:52.440
 on the table

00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:53.059
 to discuss.

00:37:55.220 --> 00:37:55.539
 So,

00:37:55.600 --> 00:37:56.000
 the solutions

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:56.820
 are not going to be

00:37:56.820 --> 00:37:58.100
 some sort of egalitarian solutions

00:37:58.100 --> 00:37:58.840
 necessarily.

00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:01.519
 But,

00:38:01.720 --> 00:38:02.960
 everyone's responsible

00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:03.519
 for coming in

00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:04.660
 and having a healthy conversation.

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.019
 And their responsibility

00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:07.079
 is not removed

00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:07.500
 from you

00:38:07.500 --> 00:38:08.539
 no matter what your race,

00:38:08.620 --> 00:38:09.420
 political ideology.

00:38:10.059 --> 00:38:10.400
 No.

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:12.940
 We come in

00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:14.240
 to have the conversation

00:38:14.240 --> 00:38:15.500
 in a healthy way.

00:38:15.500 --> 00:38:16.119
 Okay.

00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:23.440
 Okay.

00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:23.820
 So,

00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:24.800
 I critique the others

00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:25.659
 empirically.

00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:27.420
 Is there empirical work

00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:28.579
 to justify this?

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:29.599
 There is some

00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:30.440
 that needs to be more

00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:31.159
 and I'm trying to work

00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:32.119
 on some more right now.

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:33.300
 It's a couple

00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:34.179
 exciting opportunities

00:38:34.179 --> 00:38:35.119
 I'm working on right now.

00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:35.760
 But,

00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:36.539
 there is some

00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:37.219
 to suggest

00:38:37.219 --> 00:38:38.139
 this is a better way to go.

00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:38.739
 For example,

00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:40.179
 we know that

00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:41.159
 under the right conditions,

00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:41.960
 interracial contact

00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:43.099
 helps to alleviate bias.

00:38:43.099 --> 00:38:45.539
 Now,

00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:46.599
 how's it under the right conditions?

00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:46.880
 Now,

00:38:46.980 --> 00:38:48.239
 just because you have contact

00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:48.480
 with people

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.019
 of different races

00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:49.699
 doesn't mean that

00:38:49.699 --> 00:38:50.440
 you're going to be

00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:51.319
 all lovey-dovey.

00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:52.599
 But,

00:38:52.659 --> 00:38:53.420
 under the right conditions,

00:38:53.759 --> 00:38:55.119
 you will get less bias

00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:56.539
 with interracial contact.

00:38:56.539 --> 00:38:58.679
 This means we should be

00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:00.139
 encouraging this contact

00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:01.639
 under the right conditions.

00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:06.400
 Having

00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.579
 common group identity

00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:10.159
 increases positive feelings.

00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:12.579
 Right?

00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:13.679
 I mean,

00:39:13.779 --> 00:39:14.739
 I'm in Boston

00:39:14.739 --> 00:39:15.860
 or close to Boston

00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:17.860
 and it wasn't too long ago

00:39:17.860 --> 00:39:18.659
 that New England Patriots

00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:19.360
 were pretty good.

00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:21.039
 Oh,

00:39:21.259 --> 00:39:22.480
 I know.

00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:23.460
 That's bad,

00:39:23.539 --> 00:39:23.719
 huh?

00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:24.219
 Well,

00:39:25.459 --> 00:39:26.079
 they did make the playoffs

00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:26.619
 last year,

00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:28.559
 so that they...

00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.579
 When they were good,

00:39:30.779 --> 00:39:31.459
 wasn't there like a,

00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:31.859
 hey,

00:39:31.959 --> 00:39:33.259
 we're all in this together

00:39:33.259 --> 00:39:34.859
 and these other differences

00:39:34.859 --> 00:39:36.139
 don't matter as much?

00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:37.159
 Because he had

00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:38.519
 this common group identity.

00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:40.259
 This common group identity.

00:39:40.839 --> 00:39:41.279
 And we know

00:39:41.279 --> 00:39:42.019
 this is the case.

00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:43.299
 When I was in college,

00:39:43.919 --> 00:39:44.899
 I thought my dorm

00:39:44.899 --> 00:39:45.399
 was the best

00:39:45.399 --> 00:39:46.219
 because these were

00:39:46.219 --> 00:39:47.159
 the guys I was with.

00:39:48.099 --> 00:39:48.599
 But yet,

00:39:48.819 --> 00:39:49.679
 whenever we went

00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:50.679
 to a football game,

00:39:51.379 --> 00:39:52.179
 then the dorm differences

00:39:52.179 --> 00:39:52.639
 didn't matter

00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:53.460
 because now our common identity

00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:54.199
 was the whole school.

00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:57.319
 So the more...

00:39:57.319 --> 00:39:58.839
 We should be encouraging us

00:39:58.839 --> 00:39:59.739
 to think of

00:39:59.739 --> 00:40:00.960
 how to have a common identity

00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.659
 and less polarization.

00:40:03.319 --> 00:40:03.819
 And part of what

00:40:03.819 --> 00:40:04.799
 this approach is,

00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:06.199
 building community

00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:07.719
 instead of polarization.

00:40:12.299 --> 00:40:12.960
 Perspective taking.

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:14.079
 As I said,

00:40:14.259 --> 00:40:15.819
 you can do diversity training

00:40:15.819 --> 00:40:17.000
 to be more effective.

00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:17.519
 And one of the things

00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.019
 they found out

00:40:18.019 --> 00:40:19.000
 is perspective taking

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:20.159
 shouldn't be effective.

00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:21.500
 So if I learn

00:40:21.500 --> 00:40:22.199
 how to take the perspective

00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:23.339
 of other people,

00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:24.899
 if I learn how to listen

00:40:24.899 --> 00:40:25.519
 to other people

00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:26.359
 and take their perspective,

00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.119
 that has a more

00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:29.179
 effective change

00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:30.759
 than if I'm just sitting there

00:40:30.759 --> 00:40:31.259
 and listening to them

00:40:31.259 --> 00:40:31.779
 talk to me.

00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:34.399
 We've got to encourage

00:40:34.399 --> 00:40:35.079
 perspective taking.

00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:35.559
 We've got to encourage

00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:36.399
 the extraordinary communications

00:40:36.399 --> 00:40:37.839
 where I learn

00:40:37.839 --> 00:40:38.460
 about the perspectives

00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:39.139
 of others

00:40:39.139 --> 00:40:40.879
 and try to incorporate that.

00:40:45.279 --> 00:40:46.179
 Collaborative conversation

00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:47.440
 in an atmosphere

00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:49.179
 of mutual support

00:40:49.179 --> 00:40:50.659
 creates relational compliance.

00:40:52.179 --> 00:40:54.679
 If people have had a chance

00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.000
 to have their say

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:56.820
 and are heard

00:40:56.820 --> 00:40:58.860
 and have something,

00:40:59.099 --> 00:40:59.320
 you know,

00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:00.619
 not just heard

00:41:00.619 --> 00:41:01.519
 and we're going to dismiss,

00:41:01.700 --> 00:41:02.240
 but, you know,

00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:03.099
 take into account

00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:04.200
 as we try to fashion

00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:04.619
 the solution,

00:41:05.059 --> 00:41:06.200
 they may not get everything,

00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:06.700
 but you know what?

00:41:06.740 --> 00:41:07.960
 They're going to actually work

00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:09.220
 to make it successful

00:41:09.220 --> 00:41:11.460
 rather than work

00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:12.420
 to tear it down.

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:13.900
 Because the way

00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:15.159
 we do things today,

00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:17.879
 a group wins

00:41:17.879 --> 00:41:19.379
 and 40% of the country

00:41:19.379 --> 00:41:20.079
 is trying to tear down

00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:20.619
 their efforts.

00:41:21.579 --> 00:41:22.579
 And that's no way to go.

00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:25.119
 But collaborative conversations

00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:27.339
 with mutual support

00:41:27.339 --> 00:41:28.699
 will help us

00:41:28.699 --> 00:41:29.299
 to have that sort

00:41:29.299 --> 00:41:30.359
 of volitional compliance.

00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:35.940
 Was there another one there?

00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:37.759
 Oh, yeah.

00:41:38.819 --> 00:41:39.539
 Skill development.

00:41:39.659 --> 00:41:39.980
 That's just,

00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:41.839
 it's very important

00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:42.900
 we develop skills.

00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:44.559
 Part of,

00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:46.220
 you know,

00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:47.340
 I think one of the

00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:48.380
 fair critiques

00:41:48.380 --> 00:41:49.180
 of my approach is

00:41:49.180 --> 00:41:50.320
 do we have the skills for it?

00:41:50.620 --> 00:41:51.700
 And I say probably right now

00:41:51.700 --> 00:41:52.720
 our country doesn't.

00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:54.920
 So part of the more

00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:55.420
 make this work

00:41:55.420 --> 00:41:55.980
 is we're going to have

00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:56.820
 to develop skills

00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:58.660
 to learn how to actually listen,

00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:01.059
 to learn how to have communication,

00:42:01.740 --> 00:42:02.180
 to communicate

00:42:02.180 --> 00:42:03.280
 in an effective manner.

00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.700
 Because communication

00:42:04.700 --> 00:42:05.340
 is not just sitting

00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:06.180
 and yelling at people.

00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:07.700
 Yeah, you're communicating,

00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.960
 but it's not getting through.

00:42:10.720 --> 00:42:11.600
 Skill development.

00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.019
 Is a key

00:42:13.019 --> 00:42:14.260
 to do successful

00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:15.500
 diversity training.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:20.920
 See it one time.

00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:21.200
 Okay.

00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:23.579
 Implication of this approach.

00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:24.900
 First,

00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:26.380
 no one has

00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:27.820
 all the right answers.

00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:29.360
 All right?

00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:30.280
 No group has

00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:31.000
 all the right answers.

00:42:31.120 --> 00:42:31.539
 No person

00:42:31.539 --> 00:42:32.360
 has all the right answers.

00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:34.460
 But we can need

00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:35.079
 better answers

00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:36.160
 by working with each other.

00:42:37.420 --> 00:42:37.820
 And, you know,

00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:38.460
 there's actually research

00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:39.220
 showing that

00:42:39.220 --> 00:42:40.059
 one of the reasons

00:42:40.059 --> 00:42:41.300
 why diversity is good

00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:42.200
 is you bring in

00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:43.080
 these different perspectives

00:42:43.080 --> 00:42:43.860
 and people learn

00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:44.580
 how to work together

00:42:44.580 --> 00:42:45.820
 and people can see things

00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:46.800
 they didn't see before.

00:42:47.900 --> 00:42:48.420
 That's one of the reasons

00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:49.640
 why diversity works.

00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:50.420
 All right?

00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:51.800
 So if we,

00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:53.240
 if that's true,

00:42:54.160 --> 00:42:55.100
 then we should

00:42:55.100 --> 00:42:56.300
 bring in

00:42:56.300 --> 00:42:57.360
 different voices

00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.300
 to get better answers,

00:43:00.200 --> 00:43:01.380
 to see shortcomings.

00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:05.039
 second point.

00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:06.380
 We need intentional

00:43:06.380 --> 00:43:06.900
 efforts to

00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:06.960
 collaborate with

00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:07.160
 to collaborate with

00:43:07.160 --> 00:43:07.820
 conversation.

00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:09.740
 I'll be very clear

00:43:09.740 --> 00:43:10.300
 about this.

00:43:12.059 --> 00:43:12.800
 This is not,

00:43:12.940 --> 00:43:13.119
 hey,

00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:14.820
 let's just have a dialogue

00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:16.240
 and then we just

00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:16.900
 go to Twitter

00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:17.880
 and we just have a dialogue.

00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.240
 We need productive dialogue,

00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.519
 which means we need

00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:23.119
 to learn how

00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:24.039
 to have productive dialogue.

00:43:24.820 --> 00:43:25.920
 And there are techniques

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.780
 that we can learn

00:43:26.780 --> 00:43:27.440
 and that we can

00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:28.460
 teach each other.

00:43:28.460 --> 00:43:31.179
 So the conversation

00:43:31.179 --> 00:43:32.059
 is intentionally

00:43:32.059 --> 00:43:32.800
 to be collaborative,

00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:34.760
 intentionally be productive.

00:43:35.980 --> 00:43:36.860
 Unless anyone think

00:43:36.860 --> 00:43:37.619
 that I'm just talking about,

00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:37.860
 hey,

00:43:37.900 --> 00:43:38.780
 we just talk about it

00:43:38.780 --> 00:43:39.639
 and nothing gets done,

00:43:39.940 --> 00:43:40.920
 the purpose of this conversation

00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:42.019
 is to solve problems.

00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:43.099
 Now,

00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:43.900
 good relationships

00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:44.539
 is going to be

00:43:44.539 --> 00:43:45.900
 a result of that.

00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:47.159
 But good relationships

00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.740
 is not the intention

00:43:48.740 --> 00:43:50.400
 of these conversations.

00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:01.260
 There we go.

00:44:02.139 --> 00:44:02.440
 All right.

00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:04.780
 The needs of everyone

00:44:04.780 --> 00:44:05.820
 must be respected.

00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.199
 So this is a conversation

00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:09.579
 where we're going

00:44:09.579 --> 00:44:10.099
 to go into and say,

00:44:10.220 --> 00:44:10.420
 okay,

00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:12.920
 what needs

00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:14.039
 does everyone have?

00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:15.039
 Can we respect them?

00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:16.860
 Because that is

00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:17.920
 what's going to get by you.

00:44:18.619 --> 00:44:19.480
 Trying to figure out

00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:20.119
 what people really,

00:44:20.300 --> 00:44:21.019
 and also trying to figure out

00:44:21.019 --> 00:44:22.079
 what people really want

00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:23.099
 and what they really need.

00:44:23.699 --> 00:44:24.300
 Because sometimes

00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:25.280
 we want everything,

00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:26.480
 but we don't need everything.

00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:29.000
 And if you're married,

00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.940
 you know that sometimes

00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:32.079
 giving up a want

00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:33.780
 to meet your spouse's need

00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:35.440
 is a very smart thing.

00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:37.639
 It's like this.

00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:38.119
 Do you want to win

00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:38.760
 the argument now

00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:39.360
 or do you want to lose,

00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:40.519
 or do you want to win

00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:41.179
 the argument later?

00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:42.880
 Because the one you win now

00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:44.240
 is going to cost you later on.

00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:45.480
 All right?

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:46.519
 So is that really

00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:47.579
 a want or a need?

00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:49.260
 And we need to have

00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:49.820
 that conversation

00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:50.719
 when it comes to racial issues

00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:51.139
 as well.

00:44:51.740 --> 00:44:52.260
 What's a want

00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:52.880
 and what's a need?

00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:58.000
 Skills of active listening

00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.019
 and productive communication

00:44:59.019 --> 00:44:59.640
 is valued.

00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:01.460
 So active listening.

00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:04.640
 When I interview people,

00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:06.119
 I engage in what's known

00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:06.860
 as active listening.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:07.599
 Maybe I should do this

00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:08.280
 all the time.

00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:09.340
 Probably make me

00:45:09.340 --> 00:45:10.059
 a better person.

00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:12.000
 I'm working on myself.

00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:14.380
 Active listening is

00:45:14.380 --> 00:45:16.500
 listening for understanding.

00:45:17.820 --> 00:45:18.920
 I'll give you an example.

00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:22.440
 So about 10 or 12 years ago,

00:45:22.619 --> 00:45:24.579
 I wrote a book on atheists.

00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:26.039
 And to get the information

00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:26.480
 from that book,

00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.700
 I interviewed a lot of atheists.

00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:29.579
 Altogether,

00:45:29.700 --> 00:45:30.539
 my research team,

00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:31.059
 our research team

00:45:31.059 --> 00:45:32.340
 interviewed about 50 atheists.

00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:32.920
 I probably interviewed

00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:33.900
 about 25 of them.

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:35.940
 As a Christian,

00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:37.599
 I was not in agreement

00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.139
 with what they were

00:45:38.139 --> 00:45:38.740
 talking about.

00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:40.780
 But I wanted to understand

00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:42.480
 why they rejected religion

00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:44.500
 and what their perspectives was.

00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:46.680
 And so I listened for them.

00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:47.780
 I listened for understanding.

00:45:47.780 --> 00:45:49.340
 And one of the ways

00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:50.800
 I did this was

00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:51.860
 when I heard them out,

00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:53.620
 I would rephrase

00:45:53.620 --> 00:45:55.740
 what they were saying

00:45:55.740 --> 00:45:57.300
 in my own words

00:45:57.300 --> 00:45:59.519
 so that I knew

00:45:59.519 --> 00:45:59.840
 whether or not

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:01.040
 I understood them or not.

00:46:02.160 --> 00:46:03.160
 That's listening for understanding.

00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:03.360
 Now,

00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:03.780
 let's not listen

00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:04.160
 so I can get

00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.240
 the next debate point in.

00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:06.100
 Because there was

00:46:06.100 --> 00:46:06.820
 no debate there.

00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:07.840
 I was listening

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:08.920
 to understand them.

00:46:09.860 --> 00:46:09.980
 I mean,

00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:10.960
 if you don't understand

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:11.840
 where a person comes from,

00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:12.240
 how do you even

00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:12.820
 disagree with them?

00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:15.160
 Sometimes we're so eager

00:46:15.160 --> 00:46:16.240
 to prove them wrong,

00:46:16.540 --> 00:46:17.400
 we may even agree with them

00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:18.139
 more than we think.

00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:21.240
 And productive communication.

00:46:22.300 --> 00:46:23.240
 There's research out there

00:46:23.240 --> 00:46:23.920
 that shows

00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:25.820
 that when people

00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:26.720
 feel threatened

00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:28.019
 by what's communicated

00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.360
 to them,

00:46:28.740 --> 00:46:29.639
 they shut down

00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:30.180
 and literally

00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:30.940
 cannot hear you.

00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:34.039
 One thing I like to say

00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:34.599
 to Christians is,

00:46:34.680 --> 00:46:34.800
 you know,

00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:36.599
 you could be 100% right

00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:37.639
 in your outlook,

00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:38.519
 100% wrong

00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:39.380
 in how you deliver it.

00:46:39.980 --> 00:46:41.039
 You'd be sinning

00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:41.860
 against that person

00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:42.660
 even though you're right.

00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:45.019
 So what we want

00:46:45.019 --> 00:46:45.739
 is learn how

00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:46.259
 to communicate

00:46:46.259 --> 00:46:46.739
 to people

00:46:46.739 --> 00:46:47.239
 where they can

00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:48.099
 actually hear us.

00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:49.839
 I'd like to give

00:46:49.839 --> 00:46:50.519
 two examples,

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:51.759
 one from people

00:46:51.759 --> 00:46:52.519
 who are more conservative,

00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:52.960
 one from people

00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:53.579
 more progressive

00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:55.059
 on how they say things

00:46:55.059 --> 00:46:56.039
 that shut down

00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:56.619
 conversations.

00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:57.719
 And the person's

00:46:57.719 --> 00:46:58.719
 going to still be there

00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:00.099
 looking like they're listening,

00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:01.359
 but they're not listening.

00:47:02.139 --> 00:47:02.359
 All right?

00:47:02.420 --> 00:47:04.099
 So here's my first example.

00:47:05.859 --> 00:47:07.460
 When a person says,

00:47:07.460 --> 00:47:09.659
 I do not see race.

00:47:11.220 --> 00:47:12.159
 I understand

00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:12.619
 where they're coming from.

00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:13.900
 What they're trying to say is,

00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:15.099
 I'm not going to mistreat you

00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:15.840
 because of your race.

00:47:16.460 --> 00:47:17.300
 But what a lot of people

00:47:17.300 --> 00:47:17.960
 of color hear

00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:22.079
 is this important part of me,

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:23.400
 I don't recognize.

00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:26.519
 It doesn't matter to me.

00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:28.380
 That important part.

00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:28.940
 Now,

00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:30.340
 I'm an African American man.

00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:32.500
 Being an African American

00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:34.240
 is not my most important

00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:34.940
 social identity.

00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:36.900
 Being a child of God is.

00:47:37.460 --> 00:47:38.880
 But it is an important

00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:39.820
 part of my social identity.

00:47:40.659 --> 00:47:42.159
 It is part of what shapes me.

00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:43.639
 It's not the only thing,

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:44.820
 but it's an important part of it.

00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:45.519
 So,

00:47:45.860 --> 00:47:46.920
 I want people to understand

00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:47.940
 that part of me.

00:47:48.619 --> 00:47:48.820
 All right?

00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.699
 I want people to understand that.

00:47:50.059 --> 00:47:50.679
 It's hard to say,

00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:51.019
 you know,

00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:52.199
 I,

00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:55.139
 to say something such as,

00:47:55.420 --> 00:47:55.699
 you know,

00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:57.539
 my race is not important to me

00:47:57.539 --> 00:47:58.079
 because then you're

00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:58.619
 talking about yourself.

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:00.320
 But when you don't see race,

00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:01.059
 what you're telling me,

00:48:01.579 --> 00:48:03.099
 what a lot of people of color hear,

00:48:03.659 --> 00:48:04.079
 you know,

00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:05.099
 is you don't see

00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:05.940
 an important part

00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:06.860
 of who I am.

00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:07.860
 All right?

00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:09.079
 I've dealt

00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:10.139
 enough people

00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:11.940
 that I don't become defensive,

00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:13.320
 but a lot of people of color will

00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:14.340
 if you tell them,

00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:15.480
 I don't see race.

00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:18.800
 From the other end,

00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:21.820
 when you throw out

00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:22.980
 terms such as racism

00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:23.699
 and white supremacy,

00:48:24.260 --> 00:48:25.159
 I guarantee you

00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:25.920
 a lot of whites

00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:26.460
 are shutting down

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:27.519
 at that point in time.

00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:28.720
 Because their idea

00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:30.019
 of racism and supremacy,

00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:30.579
 white supremacy,

00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.320
 is the KKK members

00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:33.639
 running through the town.

00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:35.299
 and you can say,

00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:35.839
 no, no, no, no,

00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:36.219
 academically,

00:48:36.379 --> 00:48:36.460
 that's,

00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:37.920
 come on,

00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:38.819
 let's be real, folks.

00:48:39.759 --> 00:48:40.500
 Let's be real.

00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:41.779
 You can use a different term.

00:48:42.940 --> 00:48:43.920
 You can use a different term.

00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:45.259
 You know,

00:48:45.299 --> 00:48:46.400
 the way people interpret

00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:47.239
 racism

00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:49.319
 is nooses.

00:48:50.319 --> 00:48:51.319
 All right?

00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:52.779
 And that white person

00:48:52.779 --> 00:48:53.259
 is going to think,

00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:54.719
 I,

00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:56.319
 that is not me.

00:48:56.920 --> 00:48:57.559
 You're using that term

00:48:57.559 --> 00:48:58.299
 about me,

00:48:58.300 --> 00:48:59.380
 and that is not me.

00:49:00.160 --> 00:49:00.820
 And that person

00:49:00.820 --> 00:49:02.220
 will no longer hear

00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:02.780
 what you have to say.

00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:03.720
 And what you may say

00:49:03.720 --> 00:49:04.720
 may be great,

00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:06.760
 but they cannot hear it.

00:49:08.200 --> 00:49:09.039
 And let's just say,

00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:09.500
 I'm,

00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:10.400
 I'm telling policing,

00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:11.080
 yes,

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:12.280
 we do that all the time

00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:13.140
 with people we care about.

00:49:14.660 --> 00:49:15.300
 You don't tell them

00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:16.140
 police around your friends,

00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:17.000
 you'll have those friends

00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:17.560
 for much longer.

00:49:17.640 --> 00:49:17.820
 Because,

00:49:18.160 --> 00:49:18.440
 trust me,

00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:18.960
 I don't say everything

00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:19.960
 that pops into my mind.

00:49:20.680 --> 00:49:21.800
 That would make me a monster.

00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:24.100
 And you don't want,

00:49:24.160 --> 00:49:24.740
 you don't want that.

00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:25.820
 Yes,

00:49:26.060 --> 00:49:26.400
 there is,

00:49:26.500 --> 00:49:27.060
 there's some amount

00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:27.620
 of tone policing

00:49:27.620 --> 00:49:28.140
 in relationships.

00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:28.780
 Period.

00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:32.120
 And it's not always fun,

00:49:32.240 --> 00:49:33.440
 but it is what it is.

00:49:33.720 --> 00:49:34.080
 Once again,

00:49:34.120 --> 00:49:34.940
 do you want to communicate

00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:36.220
 to feel good,

00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:36.760
 or do you want to communicate

00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:37.620
 to get to break through?

00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:40.340
 You know,

00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:41.160
 it's your choice.

00:49:43.140 --> 00:49:44.039
 Work for solutions

00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:45.039
 that are win-win

00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:46.039
 instead of win-lose.

00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.019
 Let's try to find ways

00:49:50.019 --> 00:49:50.820
 where everyone feels

00:49:50.820 --> 00:49:51.760
 like they got something.

00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:53.820
 You know,

00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:54.960
 if you enter

00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:55.680
 in negotiations

00:49:55.680 --> 00:49:56.800
 and the person feels,

00:49:57.100 --> 00:49:57.820
 in an ex-negotiation,

00:49:57.820 --> 00:49:58.600
 you feel they got nothing,

00:49:58.960 --> 00:49:59.500
 why are they going

00:49:59.500 --> 00:50:00.220
 to keep working with you?

00:50:01.660 --> 00:50:02.180
 Why are they going

00:50:02.180 --> 00:50:02.880
 to keep working with you?

00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:05.880
 Negotiations,

00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:07.200
 dealing with issues,

00:50:07.700 --> 00:50:09.059
 we want to find out

00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:09.940
 what people really need

00:50:09.940 --> 00:50:10.700
 and how we can meet

00:50:10.700 --> 00:50:11.300
 those needs.

00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:12.180
 And sometimes you can

00:50:12.180 --> 00:50:12.519
 meet those needs

00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:12.820
 with something

00:50:12.820 --> 00:50:13.600
 that's pretty simple.

00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:15.260
 And why not do that?

00:50:15.820 --> 00:50:16.200
 Sometimes,

00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:17.100
 sometimes it's not

00:50:17.100 --> 00:50:17.780
 going to be as easy.

00:50:18.460 --> 00:50:18.740
 And you know,

00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:19.320
 let's acknowledge

00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:19.940
 that as well.

00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:21.800
 We should work

00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:22.640
 towards win-win

00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:24.299
 and try to avoid

00:50:24.299 --> 00:50:24.779
 win-lose

00:50:24.779 --> 00:50:25.639
 as much as possible.

00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:28.420
 Now,

00:50:28.460 --> 00:50:29.539
 there's more to this.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:30.299
 You know,

00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:31.420
 obviously,

00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:32.379
 there's more to this.

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:32.599
 You know,

00:50:32.900 --> 00:50:33.579
 I could go more

00:50:33.579 --> 00:50:36.079
 into some of the research

00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:37.199
 looking at

00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.139
 how this could be effective

00:50:39.139 --> 00:50:39.819
 and I could look

00:50:39.819 --> 00:50:41.259
 into some of the techniques

00:50:41.259 --> 00:50:42.779
 and some of the procedures

00:50:42.779 --> 00:50:44.679
 and larger ideas

00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:45.199
 about this.

00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:46.579
 So there is more to this.

00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:48.159
 But I just want to give you

00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:48.879
 all an introduction

00:50:48.879 --> 00:50:49.699
 to this perspective,

00:50:49.699 --> 00:50:50.659
 which I think is

00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:52.899
 a much more viable perspective.

00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:54.699
 If I had an elevator talk,

00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:55.819
 you know,

00:50:55.899 --> 00:50:56.639
 if I was on an elevator

00:50:56.639 --> 00:50:57.939
 on the fifth floor

00:50:57.939 --> 00:50:58.419
 and someone said,

00:50:58.500 --> 00:50:58.639
 hey,

00:50:58.679 --> 00:50:59.480
 what's your book about?

00:50:59.579 --> 00:50:59.879
 I'm worried about

00:50:59.879 --> 00:51:00.519
 the first floor

00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:02.159
 so I have like 20 seconds.

00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:04.399
 It's just about this.

00:51:05.319 --> 00:51:05.980
 My book is about

00:51:05.980 --> 00:51:06.579
 how we can solve

00:51:06.579 --> 00:51:07.319
 racial issues

00:51:07.319 --> 00:51:08.139
 or learn how to have

00:51:08.139 --> 00:51:08.779
 better conversations

00:51:08.779 --> 00:51:09.359
 with each other

00:51:09.359 --> 00:51:10.719
 so we can solve problems

00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:11.739
 where everyone wins

00:51:11.739 --> 00:51:13.739
 and get away from

00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:15.179
 one group winning

00:51:15.179 --> 00:51:16.719
 and the other group losing.

00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:19.379
 In a nutshell,

00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:20.340
 that's what this is about.

00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:21.220
 Now,

00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:21.840
 executing it

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:22.860
 is not as simple

00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:24.320
 but that's what

00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:24.860
 this is about.

00:51:25.240 --> 00:51:25.340
 Now,

00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:25.700
 I was told to go

00:51:25.700 --> 00:51:26.700
 to the last slide

00:51:26.700 --> 00:51:30.079
 that if you didn't get

00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:30.420
 a book

00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:31.160
 and you're interested

00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:31.500
 in one,

00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:32.680
 you can scan that

00:51:32.680 --> 00:51:33.280
 and get one.

00:51:33.380 --> 00:51:33.820
 I know that

00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:34.960
 some of y'all

00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:35.800
 got the book

00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:36.320
 by registering

00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:37.220
 early enough

00:51:37.220 --> 00:51:38.480
 which it should teach you.

00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:39.340
 Register as early

00:51:39.340 --> 00:51:39.880
 as possible.

00:51:41.660 --> 00:51:42.640
 And I know

00:51:42.640 --> 00:51:43.300
 we'll get some questions

00:51:43.300 --> 00:51:44.039
 but thank you

00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:44.680
 for your time

00:51:44.680 --> 00:51:46.960
 and God bless.

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:47.140
 Thank you.

00:51:47.140 --> 00:51:47.220
 Thank you.

00:51:47.220 --> 00:51:47.360
 Thank you.

00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:47.500
 Thank you.

00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:48.140
 Thank you.

00:51:48.140 --> 00:51:48.180
 Thank you.

00:51:48.180 --> 00:51:48.360
 Thank you.

00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:48.380
 Thank you.

00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:48.440
 Thank you.

00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:48.460
 Thank you.

00:51:48.460 --> 00:51:49.360
 Thank you.

00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:55.700
 Thank you,

00:51:55.700 --> 00:51:56.579
 Dr. George-Yancey.

00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:57.620
 We are now

00:51:57.620 --> 00:51:58.800
 going to transition

00:51:58.800 --> 00:51:59.599
 to the question

00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:01.099
 and answer time.

00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:02.200
 There are two mics

00:52:02.200 --> 00:52:04.380
 at the bottom

00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:04.880
 of the stairs

00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:05.559
 on the other side.

00:52:05.980 --> 00:52:06.599
 So if you have

00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:06.940
 a question,

00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:07.820
 please come line up

00:52:07.820 --> 00:52:09.140
 on either mic.

00:52:09.680 --> 00:52:10.360
 And please note

00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:11.360
 that this is a time

00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:12.660
 for questions

00:52:12.660 --> 00:52:13.220
 and answers.

00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:15.000
 It's not a debate platform.

00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:16.800
 It's not for you

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:17.740
 to air your own opinions

00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:19.539
 or to argue with Dr. George-Yancey

00:52:19.539 --> 00:52:20.779
 but for you to ask him questions

00:52:20.779 --> 00:52:22.299
 and to respectfully listen

00:52:22.299 --> 00:52:23.219
 to what he has to say

00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:24.119
 on these subjects.

00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:25.839
 So please use this opportunity

00:52:25.839 --> 00:52:26.419
 for that.

00:52:26.919 --> 00:52:27.719
 And now, please.

00:52:29.759 --> 00:52:30.619
 Thank you for coming,

00:52:30.739 --> 00:52:31.379
 Professor-Yancey.

00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:32.459
 I'm really glad

00:52:32.459 --> 00:52:33.079
 that we invited you

00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:34.439
 to come to speak to us.

00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:37.119
 I've read your Shattering Paradigms blog

00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:38.099
 over the past couple of years

00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:38.960
 and I've really appreciated

00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:39.920
 the thoughtfulness

00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:40.720
 of your writing

00:52:40.720 --> 00:52:41.380
 on that platform.

00:52:42.019 --> 00:52:42.679
 I think one thing

00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:43.760
 I wanted to ask you

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:45.019
 in response to what you said

00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:47.039
 is it doesn't make sense to me

00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:48.539
 why you would set up

00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:49.639
 colorblindness

00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:52.480
 as the contrasting perspective

00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:53.519
 to anti-racism

00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:54.960
 that's also inadequate.

00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:56.079
 Because I think

00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:57.900
 what you're contrasting against

00:52:57.900 --> 00:53:00.780
 is maybe racial obliviousness.

00:53:01.139 --> 00:53:01.960
 Just saying that,

00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:04.199
 we don't see any differences

00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:05.139
 in racial experience.

00:53:05.720 --> 00:53:07.579
 We've solved all of our racial problems

00:53:07.579 --> 00:53:08.659
 since the civil rights era

00:53:08.659 --> 00:53:10.019
 so the job is done.

00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:11.880
 And I would call that

00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:13.079
 racial obliviousness.

00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:14.440
 And colorblindness

00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:15.059
 is this ideal

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:16.240
 that you articulated

00:53:16.240 --> 00:53:17.460
 that we will try

00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:20.800
 to treat people the same,

00:53:20.900 --> 00:53:22.260
 to treat people fairly independent

00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:23.840
 of their racial identity.

00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:26.679
 And so the really troubling disparities

00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:27.740
 that you highlighted

00:53:27.740 --> 00:53:29.059
 about policing,

00:53:29.539 --> 00:53:30.039
 employment,

00:53:31.240 --> 00:53:31.720
 housing,

00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:33.039
 medical care,

00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:35.099
 I think isn't the ideal

00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:38.000
 to remove those disparities

00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.800
 through equal and fair treatment

00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:41.220
 rather than somehow

00:53:41.220 --> 00:53:43.139
 that colorblindness

00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:43.760
 is not enough

00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.679
 and we have to somehow

00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:46.300
 even reverse the disparities

00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:47.639
 or reverse the treatment

00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:50.139
 to have some kind of reverse

00:53:50.139 --> 00:53:51.960
 racial discrimination

00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.000
 in order to eliminate disparities.

00:53:55.139 --> 00:53:55.360
 Yeah.

00:53:55.720 --> 00:53:56.720
 So I guess

00:53:56.720 --> 00:53:58.500
 what I'm hearing you is

00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.260
 colorblindness

00:54:00.260 --> 00:54:02.380
 doesn't fairly represent

00:54:02.380 --> 00:54:04.480
 those who are just oblivious

00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:05.620
 to the racial issues.

00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:06.860
 Right.

00:54:07.140 --> 00:54:08.820
 I think there's something to that.

00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:11.559
 I would say that

00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:12.460
 you know

00:54:12.460 --> 00:54:14.640
 that those who advocate

00:54:14.640 --> 00:54:18.080
 and what's interesting is

00:54:18.080 --> 00:54:18.940
 I actually had a hard time

00:54:18.940 --> 00:54:19.519
 finding people

00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:20.960
 who were advocating it

00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.180
 as far as through blogs.

00:54:23.740 --> 00:54:23.860
 You know,

00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:25.059
 you get a lot of people

00:54:25.059 --> 00:54:26.240
 but you talk to people

00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:26.820
 all the time

00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:28.760
 who push a colorblindness mentality.

00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:30.680
 What I would argue

00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:31.080
 is that

00:54:31.080 --> 00:54:32.080
 this sort of mentality

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.759
 the obliviousness

00:54:34.759 --> 00:54:35.579
 also I think

00:54:35.579 --> 00:54:36.380
 leads to colorblindness.

00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:36.880
 In other words

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:38.539
 we don't need to do anything

00:54:38.539 --> 00:54:39.699
 about race

00:54:39.699 --> 00:54:41.559
 because we've conquered it.

00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:42.239
 Now,

00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:43.420
 to be fair

00:54:43.420 --> 00:54:44.699
 there are those

00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:46.019
 who push a colorblindness

00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:46.980
 who do acknowledge

00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:47.759
 their disparities

00:54:47.759 --> 00:54:49.079
 but they think

00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:49.659
 the disparities

00:54:49.659 --> 00:54:50.880
 go away

00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:53.179
 when we endure race.

00:54:53.619 --> 00:54:54.559
 That contrasts

00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:55.239
 to anti-racism

00:54:55.239 --> 00:54:56.139
 because anti-racists

00:54:56.139 --> 00:54:58.340
 who would say

00:54:58.340 --> 00:54:58.579
 yeah,

00:54:58.659 --> 00:54:59.759
 we should treat people equally

00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:01.200
 but they argue

00:55:01.200 --> 00:55:02.280
 that we have to change

00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:03.640
 institutions and structures

00:55:03.640 --> 00:55:04.420
 and those

00:55:04.420 --> 00:55:06.100
 who push back

00:55:06.100 --> 00:55:06.480
 says no,

00:55:06.540 --> 00:55:07.100
 we don't have to change

00:55:07.100 --> 00:55:07.660
 institutions and structures

00:55:07.660 --> 00:55:08.240
 we just have to

00:55:08.240 --> 00:55:10.400
 get rid of a few bad apples.

00:55:10.600 --> 00:55:10.740
 So,

00:55:11.060 --> 00:55:11.340
 for example,

00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:12.040
 police shootings.

00:55:13.200 --> 00:55:14.800
 Those with the more

00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:15.940
 colorblindness perspective

00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:17.480
 or oblivious if you will

00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:18.100
 will say

00:55:18.100 --> 00:55:19.040
 yes,

00:55:19.700 --> 00:55:20.600
 there are some

00:55:20.600 --> 00:55:21.820
 bad police officers.

00:55:22.600 --> 00:55:23.140
 We get rid of

00:55:23.140 --> 00:55:24.180
 bad police officers

00:55:24.180 --> 00:55:25.740
 then everything's fair.

00:55:27.120 --> 00:55:27.920
 Those who push

00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:28.540
 anti-racism

00:55:28.540 --> 00:55:29.680
 would disagree with that

00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:30.000
 saying

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:31.539
 it's not just a fact

00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:32.980
 of a few bad police officers

00:55:32.980 --> 00:55:34.899
 it is we have an institution

00:55:34.899 --> 00:55:36.679
 that works against

00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:37.759
 people of color

00:55:37.759 --> 00:55:39.859
 and we have to correct that.

00:55:40.399 --> 00:55:40.419
 So,

00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:41.279
 I do think

00:55:41.279 --> 00:55:42.099
 that they do have

00:55:42.099 --> 00:55:43.779
 these contrasting views

00:55:43.779 --> 00:55:45.079
 on what is wrong

00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:46.839
 and how we can fix it.

00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:48.039
 Does that sort of make sense?

00:55:48.899 --> 00:55:50.119
 I see what you're saying

00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:51.000
 but I would still

00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:51.619
 personally

00:55:51.619 --> 00:55:52.559
 say that

00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:54.559
 I hold

00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:55.899
 I want us

00:55:55.899 --> 00:55:56.359
 to all move

00:55:56.359 --> 00:55:57.139
 towards the ideal

00:55:57.139 --> 00:55:59.019
 of what I'm calling

00:55:59.019 --> 00:56:00.599
 colorblindness

00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:02.199
 which is

00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:03.139
 which is

00:56:03.139 --> 00:56:04.139
 is this

00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:05.119
 you know

00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:06.319
 future where

00:56:06.319 --> 00:56:07.859
 where people are treated

00:56:07.859 --> 00:56:08.359
 the same

00:56:08.359 --> 00:56:10.000
 and there is no

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:10.719
 unfair treatment

00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:11.579
 based on skin color.

00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:12.319
 And I think

00:56:12.319 --> 00:56:13.539
 even when we get

00:56:13.539 --> 00:56:15.460
 if I could snap my finger

00:56:15.460 --> 00:56:16.279
 and that were the case

00:56:16.279 --> 00:56:16.619
 right now

00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:17.340
 in terms of treatment

00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:18.559
 I think disparities

00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:19.699
 would still exist

00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:20.739
 and those disparities

00:56:20.739 --> 00:56:21.519
 would still take

00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:21.940
 you know

00:56:21.940 --> 00:56:22.880
 years and decades

00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:23.719
 to

00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:25.699
 disappear

00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:26.360
 because that's

00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:26.940
 that's how

00:56:26.940 --> 00:56:27.159
 you know

00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:27.539
 that's how

00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:28.619
 human progress

00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:29.559
 in history works.

00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:30.579
 And I think

00:56:30.579 --> 00:56:31.800
 the anti-racist

00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:32.219
 approach

00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:33.219
 would be

00:56:33.219 --> 00:56:34.259
 would be to say

00:56:34.259 --> 00:56:34.440
 that

00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:35.420
 the disparities

00:56:35.420 --> 00:56:35.860
 are

00:56:35.860 --> 00:56:38.300
 the disparities

00:56:38.300 --> 00:56:39.300
 need to go away

00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:39.820
 now

00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:40.760
 and

00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:41.900
 and the disparities

00:56:41.900 --> 00:56:43.360
 even if we have to

00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:44.280
 take approaches

00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:45.519
 that are

00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:47.260
 racially discriminatory

00:56:47.260 --> 00:56:49.700
 that's okay

00:56:49.700 --> 00:56:50.599
 if it's in the service

00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:51.500
 of eliminating disparities

00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:51.920
 and so

00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:52.780
 I would

00:56:52.780 --> 00:56:53.599
 I would say

00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:54.860
 that colorblindness

00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:55.579
 is

00:56:55.579 --> 00:56:56.460
 is actually

00:56:56.460 --> 00:56:57.160
 the unifying

00:56:57.160 --> 00:56:57.980
 better way

00:56:57.980 --> 00:56:58.940
 in

00:56:58.940 --> 00:56:59.640
 that's

00:56:59.640 --> 00:57:00.280
 that's

00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:00.700
 that's

00:57:00.700 --> 00:57:01.120
 neither

00:57:01.120 --> 00:57:02.640
 anti-racism

00:57:02.640 --> 00:57:04.460
 nor racial obliviousness.

00:57:05.420 --> 00:57:05.519
 Yeah

00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:06.219
 I

00:57:06.219 --> 00:57:06.780
 you know

00:57:06.780 --> 00:57:07.199
 I think

00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:07.980
 if you can step a finger

00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:08.739
 and

00:57:08.739 --> 00:57:09.380
 and

00:57:09.380 --> 00:57:09.960
 there would be

00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:11.039
 no mistreatment

00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:12.500
 I don't know

00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:13.639
 what the anti-racist

00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:14.340
 would accept that

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:14.539
 but

00:57:14.539 --> 00:57:15.380
 I know

00:57:15.380 --> 00:57:15.920
 that they

00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.000
 don't see how

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:17.239
 that could

00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:18.300
 that could possibly happen

00:57:18.300 --> 00:57:18.659
 and so

00:57:18.659 --> 00:57:19.400
 it's sort of like

00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:21.340
 a myth

00:57:21.340 --> 00:57:22.179
 out there

00:57:22.179 --> 00:57:22.440
 you know

00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:23.179
 we can't step our fingers

00:57:23.179 --> 00:57:23.380
 and

00:57:23.380 --> 00:57:24.559
 and so

00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:25.400
 the difference becomes

00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:25.599
 then

00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:25.920
 all right

00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:26.880
 how do we get there

00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:27.599
 and

00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:27.920
 so

00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:28.460
 if you think

00:57:28.460 --> 00:57:29.300
 the way you get there

00:57:29.300 --> 00:57:29.820
 is

00:57:29.820 --> 00:57:30.219
 okay

00:57:30.219 --> 00:57:30.920
 let's

00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:31.559
 everyone

00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:32.400
 treat everyone equally

00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:33.639
 and we'll eventually get there

00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:34.639
 then you're more

00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:35.300
 in the colorblindness camp

00:57:35.300 --> 00:57:35.580
 you think

00:57:35.580 --> 00:57:36.340
 the way you get there

00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:37.039
 is we have to change

00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:38.039
 social structures

00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:40.160
 you're more in the anti-racism camp

00:57:40.160 --> 00:57:41.980
 I think that is a dividing line

00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:42.960
 between the two

00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:44.260
 since we can't

00:57:44.260 --> 00:57:44.940
 step our fingers

00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:45.340
 and

00:57:45.340 --> 00:57:46.220
 and

00:57:46.220 --> 00:57:46.420
 and

00:57:46.420 --> 00:57:47.360
 and be there instantly

00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:49.000
 thank you

00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:49.560
 thank you

00:57:49.560 --> 00:57:51.820
 thank you so much

00:57:51.820 --> 00:57:52.920
 for speaking with us

00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:53.920
 I really like

00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:54.840
 the model

00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:55.760
 that you showed

00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:56.280
 about

00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:57.700
 coming to this

00:57:57.700 --> 00:57:58.680
 mutual accountability

00:57:58.680 --> 00:57:59.019
 and

00:57:59.019 --> 00:58:00.060
 struck me that

00:58:00.060 --> 00:58:01.900
 those skills

00:58:01.900 --> 00:58:03.780
 that's not just

00:58:03.780 --> 00:58:04.300
 the problem

00:58:04.300 --> 00:58:04.960
 to racism

00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:05.220
 right

00:58:05.220 --> 00:58:05.639
 like that's

00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:06.539
 the whole polarization

00:58:06.539 --> 00:58:07.240
 game

00:58:07.240 --> 00:58:08.039
 in everything

00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:08.500
 that we're

00:58:08.500 --> 00:58:09.160
 dealing with

00:58:09.160 --> 00:58:09.700
 right now

00:58:09.700 --> 00:58:10.160
 and

00:58:10.160 --> 00:58:11.579
 maybe

00:58:11.579 --> 00:58:12.700
 the question

00:58:12.700 --> 00:58:13.139
 I had

00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:14.119
 I know this is more

00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:15.059
 introductory

00:58:15.059 --> 00:58:16.240
 but in terms of

00:58:16.240 --> 00:58:17.160
 thinking about this

00:58:17.160 --> 00:58:17.820
 practically

00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:18.700
 how do you

00:58:18.700 --> 00:58:19.840
 envision

00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:20.980
 you know

00:58:20.980 --> 00:58:21.720
 it's not enough

00:58:21.720 --> 00:58:22.780
 to just tell people

00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:23.900
 we need to talk

00:58:23.900 --> 00:58:24.360
 right

00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:25.099
 like I feel like

00:58:25.099 --> 00:58:25.680
 a lot of

00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:26.780
 the strength

00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:27.619
 of that kind of

00:58:27.619 --> 00:58:28.539
 thing comes from

00:58:28.539 --> 00:58:28.960
 modeling

00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:29.659
 from like

00:58:29.659 --> 00:58:30.800
 actually experiencing

00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:31.960
 being heard

00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:32.659
 by someone else

00:58:32.659 --> 00:58:33.440
 from being

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:34.400
 in these conversations

00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:34.760
 but

00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:35.699
 I don't

00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:36.320
 know of

00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:37.199
 anything

00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:38.019
 you know

00:58:38.019 --> 00:58:38.579
 going on

00:58:38.579 --> 00:58:38.960
 that is

00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:39.900
 bringing people

00:58:39.900 --> 00:58:40.559
 to any kind

00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:40.980
 of table

00:58:40.980 --> 00:58:41.720
 or encouraging

00:58:41.720 --> 00:58:41.940
 them

00:58:41.940 --> 00:58:42.440
 so I'm just

00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:42.820
 curious

00:58:42.820 --> 00:58:44.119
 what are

00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:44.699
 steps

00:58:44.699 --> 00:58:45.159
 or what are

00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:45.519
 things that

00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:46.159
 you have seen

00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:47.780
 or promising

00:58:47.780 --> 00:58:48.699
 things that

00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:49.760
 could lead to

00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:50.559
 this type

00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:50.820
 of

00:58:50.820 --> 00:58:51.619
 being carried

00:58:51.619 --> 00:58:51.800
 out

00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:52.579
 yeah

00:58:52.579 --> 00:58:53.900
 I understand

00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:55.420
 the question

00:58:55.420 --> 00:58:57.599
 there are a few

00:58:57.599 --> 00:58:58.300
 organizations

00:58:58.300 --> 00:58:58.780
 that are doing

00:58:58.780 --> 00:58:59.580
 something similar

00:58:59.580 --> 00:59:00.539
 Better Angels

00:59:00.539 --> 00:59:01.380
 is one of them

00:59:01.380 --> 00:59:02.740
 Game Changers

00:59:02.740 --> 00:59:03.140
 is doing

00:59:03.140 --> 00:59:03.820
 something similar

00:59:03.820 --> 00:59:05.100
 on the west coast

00:59:05.100 --> 00:59:05.900
 but there's

00:59:05.900 --> 00:59:06.360
 but yeah

00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:06.880
 but people

00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:07.120
 don't know

00:59:07.120 --> 00:59:07.440
 about that

00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:08.320
 so what

00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:09.720
 I'm very

00:59:09.720 --> 00:59:10.180
 realistic

00:59:10.180 --> 00:59:10.780
 in that

00:59:10.780 --> 00:59:11.320
 this is not

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:11.620
 something that's

00:59:11.620 --> 00:59:11.960
 going to happen

00:59:11.960 --> 00:59:12.420
 overnight

00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.440
 I'm not thinking

00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:14.660
 it's going to

00:59:14.660 --> 00:59:15.000
 happen in my

00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:15.340
 lifetime

00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:15.660
 I'm hoping

00:59:15.660 --> 00:59:15.900
 it's going to

00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:16.300
 happen in my

00:59:16.300 --> 00:59:17.260
 son's lifetimes

00:59:17.260 --> 00:59:18.340
 that we really

00:59:18.340 --> 00:59:19.039
 start changing

00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:19.460
 the culture

00:59:19.460 --> 00:59:20.000
 of society

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:20.500
 to where

00:59:20.500 --> 00:59:21.600
 we value

00:59:21.600 --> 00:59:22.539
 conversations

00:59:22.539 --> 00:59:23.420
 real conversations

00:59:23.420 --> 00:59:23.960
 in a way we

00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:24.600
 don't

00:59:24.600 --> 00:59:25.360
 so what am I

00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:26.120
 doing right now

00:59:26.120 --> 00:59:27.300
 you know

00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:27.740
 I'm doing some

00:59:27.740 --> 00:59:28.260
 research

00:59:28.300 --> 00:59:29.440
 I'm doing

00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.960
 research on

00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:30.580
 training within

00:59:30.580 --> 00:59:31.220
 churches

00:59:31.220 --> 00:59:31.680
 and how

00:59:31.680 --> 00:59:32.000
 churches

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:33.300
 can better

00:59:33.300 --> 00:59:34.300
 I'm also

00:59:34.300 --> 00:59:35.019
 getting an

00:59:35.019 --> 00:59:35.400
 opportunity to

00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:35.700
 get into

00:59:35.700 --> 00:59:36.180
 some school

00:59:36.180 --> 00:59:36.820
 systems

00:59:36.820 --> 00:59:37.660
 because if we

00:59:37.660 --> 00:59:38.039
 can reach our

00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:38.380
 kids

00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:38.840
 maybe that

00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:39.420
 that will be

00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:39.980
 a way of

00:59:39.980 --> 00:59:40.400
 getting things

00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:40.660
 started

00:59:40.660 --> 00:59:41.600
 I hope in

00:59:41.600 --> 00:59:42.300
 time maybe

00:59:42.300 --> 00:59:43.640
 to be able

00:59:43.640 --> 00:59:44.600
 to get in

00:59:44.600 --> 00:59:45.160
 some businesses

00:59:45.160 --> 00:59:45.780
 as well

00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:47.280
 to change the

00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:47.519
 way we do

00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:48.400
 diversity training

00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:49.760
 I want to do

00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:50.200
 some research

00:59:50.200 --> 00:59:50.640
 to show that

00:59:50.640 --> 00:59:51.019
 this is more

00:59:51.019 --> 00:59:51.400
 effective

00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:52.600
 because we

00:59:52.600 --> 00:59:52.880
 show this

00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:53.480
 more effective

00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:54.320
 think about it

00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:54.700
 this way

00:59:54.700 --> 00:59:55.800
 assume that you

00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:57.260
 are a

00:59:57.260 --> 00:59:58.000
 president of

00:59:58.000 --> 00:59:58.380
 a college

00:59:58.380 --> 00:59:59.080
 or assume

00:59:59.080 --> 00:59:59.380
 that you

00:59:59.380 --> 01:00:00.040
 are a

01:00:00.040 --> 01:00:01.260
 CEO

01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:02.480
 or heading

01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:02.840
 up a

01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:03.000
 school

01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:03.440
 district

01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:05.120
 you know

01:00:05.120 --> 01:00:05.520
 that if you

01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:06.100
 bring in

01:00:06.100 --> 01:00:06.580
 and I'm not

01:00:06.580 --> 01:00:07.020
 saying this is

01:00:07.020 --> 01:00:07.600
 right or wrong

01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:07.900
 I'm just saying

01:00:07.900 --> 01:00:08.320
 this is just

01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:09.500
 put yourself

01:00:09.500 --> 01:00:09.720
 in their

01:00:09.720 --> 01:00:09.980
 mind

01:00:09.980 --> 01:00:10.720
 if I bring

01:00:10.720 --> 01:00:11.380
 in this

01:00:11.380 --> 01:00:12.380
 anti-resistant

01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:12.820
 program

01:00:12.820 --> 01:00:13.460
 I'm going to

01:00:13.460 --> 01:00:13.760
 get the

01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:14.300
 people who

01:00:14.300 --> 01:00:15.020
 are saying

01:00:15.020 --> 01:00:16.020
 you're woke

01:00:16.020 --> 01:00:17.620
 you're woke

01:00:17.620 --> 01:00:18.740
 if I don't

01:00:18.740 --> 01:00:19.140
 bring it in

01:00:19.140 --> 01:00:19.320
 I'm going to

01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:19.580
 get people

01:00:19.580 --> 01:00:20.040
 say hey

01:00:20.040 --> 01:00:20.240
 you're

01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:21.720
 so what if

01:00:21.720 --> 01:00:21.840
 there's a

01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:22.420
 program where

01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:22.800
 you can bring

01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:23.160
 it in and

01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:23.500
 it actually has

01:00:23.500 --> 01:00:24.400
 good results

01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:25.639
 but it doesn't

01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:26.320
 trigger the

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:27.059
 you're woke

01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:27.539
 thing

01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:28.519
 and the

01:00:28.519 --> 01:00:29.079
 other says

01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:30.159
 well I can

01:00:30.159 --> 01:00:30.920
 make progress

01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:32.960
 if that

01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:33.860
 program exists

01:00:33.860 --> 01:00:35.219
 I think it

01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:35.519
 catches on

01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:36.860
 like wildfire

01:00:36.860 --> 01:00:37.980
 now that's

01:00:37.980 --> 01:00:38.159
 where the

01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:38.659
 research comes

01:00:38.659 --> 01:00:38.940
 in

01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:40.679
 I think

01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:41.219
 there's enough

01:00:41.219 --> 01:00:41.940
 background research

01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:42.880
 suggesting this

01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:43.360
 will work

01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:44.380
 but what we

01:00:44.380 --> 01:00:45.400
 don't have

01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:46.440
 is actual

01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:47.099
 research showing

01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:47.739
 results and

01:00:47.739 --> 01:00:48.099
 that's what I'm

01:00:48.099 --> 01:00:48.619
 working on trying

01:00:48.619 --> 01:00:49.079
 to generate

01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:49.599
 right now

01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:50.739
 so yeah I do

01:00:50.739 --> 01:00:51.219
 see a path

01:00:51.219 --> 01:00:52.119
 forward but I'm

01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:52.800
 realistic this is

01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:53.720
 not I wish I

01:00:53.720 --> 01:00:54.019
 could tell you

01:00:54.019 --> 01:00:54.500
 hey this time

01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:55.080
 next year things

01:00:55.080 --> 01:00:55.560
 will be so

01:00:55.560 --> 01:00:57.460
 different but you

01:00:57.460 --> 01:00:58.500
 know I'm just a

01:00:58.500 --> 01:00:59.320
 backward sociologist

01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:00.039
 from Waco so

01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:00.600
 what do I know

01:01:00.600 --> 01:01:02.200
 thank you

01:01:02.200 --> 01:01:03.019
 thank you

01:01:03.019 --> 01:01:05.580
 yes I thank you

01:01:05.580 --> 01:01:06.460
 so much for a

01:01:06.460 --> 01:01:07.120
 really fascinating

01:01:07.120 --> 01:01:08.080
 talk I was

01:01:08.080 --> 01:01:08.880
 invited here by a

01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:09.519
 friend from West

01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:09.880
 Gate Church

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:11.120
 Raphael and I'm

01:01:11.120 --> 01:01:12.100
 so glad that I

01:01:12.100 --> 01:01:13.560
 came I want to

01:01:13.560 --> 01:01:14.120
 ask a question

01:01:14.120 --> 01:01:14.640
 that's a bit

01:01:14.640 --> 01:01:15.680
 like weird but

01:01:15.680 --> 01:01:16.220
 I'll try to keep

01:01:16.220 --> 01:01:18.420
 it tight what

01:01:18.420 --> 01:01:19.000
 did the scriptures

01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:19.860
 say about racism

01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:21.340
 and how is the

01:01:21.340 --> 01:01:21.940
 mutual accountability

01:01:21.940 --> 01:01:22.460
 approach

01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:23.400
 that you've

01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:25.159
 outlined draw on

01:01:25.159 --> 01:01:26.599
 what the scriptures

01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:27.320
 say about racism

01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:27.940
 and the response

01:01:27.940 --> 01:01:29.139
 to racism and

01:01:29.139 --> 01:01:30.420
 given that I

01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:30.800
 know that there

01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:31.099
 are a lot of

01:01:31.099 --> 01:01:31.860
 pastors in the

01:01:31.860 --> 01:01:32.599
 audience what

01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:33.220
 would your advice

01:01:33.220 --> 01:01:34.579
 be to them in

01:01:34.579 --> 01:01:35.300
 terms of

01:01:35.300 --> 01:01:37.019
 approaching

01:01:37.019 --> 01:01:41.039
 dealing with

01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:42.320
 racism from the

01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:43.199
 perspective of

01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:44.500
 faithfully living

01:01:44.500 --> 01:01:45.320
 out our calling

01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:46.220
 as believers

01:01:46.220 --> 01:01:47.340
 rather than a

01:01:47.340 --> 01:01:49.240
 response to racism

01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:49.860
 as a problem

01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:51.260
 it's from the

01:01:51.260 --> 01:01:51.940
 standpoint of like

01:01:51.940 --> 01:01:52.400
 as Christians

01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:53.019
 we're called to

01:01:53.019 --> 01:01:53.440
 do X

01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:54.900
 therefore this is

01:01:54.900 --> 01:01:55.440
 the implications

01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:56.119
 for how we

01:01:56.119 --> 01:01:56.599
 interact with

01:01:56.599 --> 01:01:56.960
 people who are

01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:57.380
 different from

01:01:57.380 --> 01:01:57.619
 us

01:01:57.619 --> 01:01:59.440
 okay all right

01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:00.460
 so the answer

01:02:00.460 --> 01:02:01.039
 first question is

01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:01.820
 really easy

01:02:01.820 --> 01:02:02.960
 race did not

01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:03.740
 exist in scriptural

01:02:03.740 --> 01:02:04.280
 times

01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:05.820
 you know there's

01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:07.820
 a race race

01:02:07.820 --> 01:02:09.079
 emerged around

01:02:09.079 --> 01:02:11.159
 13th 14th century

01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:11.700
 as part of the

01:02:11.700 --> 01:02:12.300
 transcontinental

01:02:12.300 --> 01:02:13.880
 slave trade and

01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:14.380
 that's when we

01:02:14.380 --> 01:02:15.400
 really define

01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:16.280
 racial groups the

01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:17.059
 way we do today

01:02:17.059 --> 01:02:18.500
 now that doesn't

01:02:18.500 --> 01:02:18.719
 mean the

01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:19.079
 scripture is

01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:19.779
 silent it's just

01:02:19.779 --> 01:02:20.420
 if you're asking

01:02:20.420 --> 01:02:21.299
 purely on racism

01:02:21.299 --> 01:02:21.960
 it doesn't say

01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:22.380
 anything because it

01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:22.940
 wasn't there

01:02:22.940 --> 01:02:24.400
 what I like to

01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:25.699
 think about is

01:02:25.699 --> 01:02:26.559
 the Samaritans

01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:27.719
 because I think

01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:28.299
 that's the closest

01:02:28.299 --> 01:02:28.880
 thing that you

01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:30.159
 have if you look

01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:30.719
 at the history of

01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:31.259
 the Samaritans

01:02:31.259 --> 01:02:32.000
 the Samaritans

01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:32.900
 were remember

01:02:32.900 --> 01:02:34.159
 Nehemiah when

01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:34.659
 people were

01:02:34.659 --> 01:02:35.400
 harassing him

01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:35.739
 was trying to

01:02:35.739 --> 01:02:36.380
 rebuild that was

01:02:36.380 --> 01:02:37.179
 the Samaritans

01:02:37.179 --> 01:02:38.480
 Jews did not like

01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:39.279
 the Samaritans

01:02:39.279 --> 01:02:41.019
 so given that

01:02:41.019 --> 01:02:42.219
 what should we

01:02:42.219 --> 01:02:43.019
 preach on racism

01:02:43.019 --> 01:02:43.900
 look at the

01:02:43.900 --> 01:02:44.579
 Samaritans what

01:02:44.579 --> 01:02:45.219
 did Jesus do

01:02:45.219 --> 01:02:47.159
 he told a story

01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:48.099
 where the

01:02:48.099 --> 01:02:48.779
 Samaritan was

01:02:48.779 --> 01:02:49.219
 the hero

01:02:49.219 --> 01:02:51.159
 what did Jesus

01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:51.739
 do the

01:02:51.739 --> 01:02:52.139
 Samaritan the

01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:52.420
 woman in the

01:02:52.420 --> 01:02:52.819
 world was a

01:02:52.819 --> 01:02:54.960
 Samaritan so

01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:55.559
 he intentionally

01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:56.199
 went out of his

01:02:56.199 --> 01:02:57.759
 way ministered

01:02:57.759 --> 01:02:58.920
 to her and

01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:00.139
 here's the thing

01:03:00.139 --> 01:03:01.799
 that really when

01:03:01.799 --> 01:03:02.719
 Jesus is blunt

01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:03.759
 when Jesus throws

01:03:03.759 --> 01:03:04.719
 tables and when

01:03:04.719 --> 01:03:06.059
 Jesus says you

01:03:06.059 --> 01:03:06.719
 whitewashed

01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:07.739
 scriptures who's

01:03:07.739 --> 01:03:08.500
 he talking to

01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:09.380
 is he talking to

01:03:09.380 --> 01:03:10.779
 Samaritans no

01:03:10.779 --> 01:03:11.480
 he's talking to

01:03:11.480 --> 01:03:12.799
 Romans no he's

01:03:12.799 --> 01:03:13.119
 talking to his

01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:14.179
 own people about

01:03:14.179 --> 01:03:14.559
 that

01:03:14.579 --> 01:03:16.019
 and the

01:03:16.019 --> 01:03:16.659
 leaders about

01:03:16.659 --> 01:03:17.460
 that when

01:03:17.460 --> 01:03:18.319
 was the woman

01:03:18.319 --> 01:03:19.039
 in adultery

01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:20.519
 but he didn't

01:03:20.519 --> 01:03:21.139
 talk to her in

01:03:21.139 --> 01:03:21.679
 that way

01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:23.519
 now he talks

01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:23.779
 about their

01:03:23.779 --> 01:03:24.579
 sin he doesn't

01:03:24.579 --> 01:03:25.440
 he said you're

01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:27.219
 great but he

01:03:27.219 --> 01:03:27.819
 has talked with

01:03:27.819 --> 01:03:29.420
 compassion sensitivity

01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:31.679
 Jesus gets

01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:32.940
 riled up with

01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:33.940
 his own group

01:03:33.940 --> 01:03:37.039
 and I fear

01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:37.579
 as Christians

01:03:37.579 --> 01:03:38.199
 we're the

01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:39.639
 opposite with

01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:40.400
 our own

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:41.400
 we're compassionate

01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:42.860
 with others we

01:03:42.860 --> 01:03:43.599
 get riled up

01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:46.119
 I think that's a

01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:46.599
 good direction for

01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:47.099
 a pastor to

01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:48.739
 preach on how

01:03:48.739 --> 01:03:49.139
 you deal with

01:03:49.139 --> 01:03:49.519
 racial issues

01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:50.099
 now that gets

01:03:50.099 --> 01:03:50.719
 back to racial

01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:51.519
 issues obviously

01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:52.839
 even though race

01:03:52.839 --> 01:03:53.759
 was not directly

01:03:53.759 --> 01:03:54.339
 in the Bible

01:03:54.339 --> 01:03:55.739
 how do we treat

01:03:55.739 --> 01:03:56.380
 those who are in

01:03:56.380 --> 01:03:57.400
 our outgroups and

01:03:57.400 --> 01:03:58.139
 there the Bible has

01:03:58.139 --> 01:03:59.619
 a lot to say on

01:03:59.619 --> 01:04:00.039
 how to treat people

01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:00.940
 who are outgroups

01:04:00.940 --> 01:04:02.360
 so that's what my

01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:03.139
 advice would be to

01:04:03.139 --> 01:04:03.779
 any of you pastors

01:04:03.779 --> 01:04:06.019
 out there from a

01:04:06.019 --> 01:04:07.279
 scientist not a

01:04:07.279 --> 01:04:08.119
 pastor himself

01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:14.659
 sorry I just

01:04:14.659 --> 01:04:15.179
 really appreciate

01:04:15.179 --> 01:04:16.099
 you coming I

01:04:16.099 --> 01:04:16.559
 just had some

01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:17.980
 questions about I

01:04:17.980 --> 01:04:19.119
 think you mentioned

01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:20.539
 I think from my

01:04:20.539 --> 01:04:21.259
 understanding of

01:04:21.259 --> 01:04:22.380
 anti-racist pedagogy

01:04:22.380 --> 01:04:23.019
 it seems like there

01:04:23.019 --> 01:04:23.579
 is a lot of

01:04:23.579 --> 01:04:25.480
 overlap in that and

01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:26.079
 what you're saying

01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:26.659
 about mutual

01:04:26.659 --> 01:04:27.559
 accountability but I

01:04:27.559 --> 01:04:28.299
 know you've

01:04:28.299 --> 01:04:29.460
 emphasized kind of

01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:30.279
 that anti-racist

01:04:30.279 --> 01:04:30.920
 pedagogy really

01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:32.159
 emphasizes systemic

01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:33.239
 and structural change

01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:34.380
 which I think is

01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:36.239
 very much true but

01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:37.179
 what I wonder is

01:04:37.179 --> 01:04:38.500
 does your kind of

01:04:38.500 --> 01:04:39.839
 take and perspective

01:04:39.839 --> 01:04:40.279
 on mutual

01:04:40.279 --> 01:04:41.559
 accountability does

01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:42.899
 that well firstly do

01:04:42.899 --> 01:04:44.099
 you think that

01:04:44.099 --> 01:04:45.219
 systemic and

01:04:45.219 --> 01:04:46.419
 structural change is

01:04:46.419 --> 01:04:47.139
 not the right way to

01:04:47.139 --> 01:04:47.739
 go I think there are

01:04:47.739 --> 01:04:48.619
 a lot of studies as

01:04:48.619 --> 01:04:49.159
 you've mentioned

01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:51.339
 where it's trying to

01:04:51.339 --> 01:04:52.619
 like press it on

01:04:52.619 --> 01:04:53.459
 people who are not

01:04:53.459 --> 01:04:54.239
 interested in taking

01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:54.979
 it doesn't work

01:04:54.979 --> 01:04:55.559
 right diversity

01:04:55.559 --> 01:04:56.259
 training shows that

01:04:56.259 --> 01:04:56.879
 a lot of work in

01:04:56.879 --> 01:04:57.619
 schools show that

01:04:57.619 --> 01:05:00.139
 but I wonder yeah

01:05:00.139 --> 01:05:00.919
 so do you think

01:05:00.919 --> 01:05:01.959
 there is any space

01:05:01.959 --> 01:05:02.739
 where we should be

01:05:02.739 --> 01:05:03.479
 kind of trying to

01:05:03.479 --> 01:05:04.099
 make change on a

01:05:04.099 --> 01:05:04.639
 systemic and

01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:06.000
 structural level and

01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:07.320
 also when you say

01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:08.019
 mutual accountability

01:05:08.019 --> 01:05:08.820
 is that only on a

01:05:08.820 --> 01:05:09.300
 one-on-one

01:05:09.300 --> 01:05:11.159
 interpersonal kind of

01:05:11.159 --> 01:05:12.400
 level or is there

01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:13.559
 any way to kind of

01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:14.260
 have that accountability

01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:15.360
 on a larger level

01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:16.500
 for purposes of

01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:17.000
 like equity

01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:18.460
 great questions

01:05:18.460 --> 01:05:19.000
 thank you

01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:19.800
 all right so

01:05:19.800 --> 01:05:21.400
 yes I mean

01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:22.820
 one of the things

01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:23.860
 is this is actually

01:05:23.860 --> 01:05:24.420
 about doing

01:05:24.420 --> 01:05:25.500
 structural change

01:05:25.500 --> 01:05:26.820
 because to me

01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:27.579
 you do structural

01:05:27.579 --> 01:05:29.059
 change by bringing

01:05:29.059 --> 01:05:30.079
 people together

01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:31.000
 not by saying

01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:31.840
 here's a structural

01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:32.800
 change you're going

01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:33.639
 to accept it or

01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:34.340
 you know like or

01:05:34.340 --> 01:05:35.199
 lump it so

01:05:35.199 --> 01:05:36.439
 remember it's

01:05:36.439 --> 01:05:37.599
 conversations to

01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:38.339
 make change to

01:05:38.339 --> 01:05:39.000
 solve problems

01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:40.819
 so I do think

01:05:40.819 --> 01:05:41.639
 that that that

01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:42.379
 that this is about

01:05:42.379 --> 01:05:42.939
 structural change

01:05:42.939 --> 01:05:43.799
 it's not just about

01:05:43.799 --> 01:05:44.699
 we feel good

01:05:44.699 --> 01:05:45.159
 together

01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:47.059
 your other question

01:05:47.059 --> 01:05:47.639
 is really good

01:05:47.639 --> 01:05:48.359
 because yeah

01:05:48.359 --> 01:05:49.839
 one-on-one we

01:05:49.839 --> 01:05:50.339
 can see this but

01:05:50.339 --> 01:05:50.819
 is this something

01:05:50.819 --> 01:05:52.039
 so let me just

01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:52.960
 give a hypothetical

01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:54.179
 all right on how

01:05:54.179 --> 01:05:54.899
 I can see how we

01:05:54.899 --> 01:05:55.579
 do this because I

01:05:55.579 --> 01:05:56.179
 do think this is

01:05:56.179 --> 01:05:57.199
 something that that

01:05:57.199 --> 01:05:58.319
 is not just one-on-one

01:05:58.319 --> 01:05:59.519
 although one-on-one

01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:00.179
 we may develop the

01:06:00.179 --> 01:06:00.819
 skills in order to

01:06:00.819 --> 01:06:02.139
 do this better but

01:06:02.139 --> 01:06:02.679
 I don't think it's

01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:04.899
 just that what if

01:06:04.899 --> 01:06:06.099
 the school boards

01:06:06.099 --> 01:06:07.199
 protest what if we

01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:07.859
 did something like

01:06:07.859 --> 01:06:09.539
 this we took some

01:06:09.539 --> 01:06:11.239
 of the the parents

01:06:11.239 --> 01:06:12.039
 who were really

01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:13.039
 angry and some

01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:13.859
 school board members

01:06:13.859 --> 01:06:15.579
 and we trained them

01:06:15.579 --> 01:06:17.379
 in how to engage in

01:06:17.379 --> 01:06:18.119
 clap conversations

01:06:18.119 --> 01:06:20.879
 we you know put them

01:06:20.879 --> 01:06:22.079
 up you know

01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.639
 Tim some sort of

01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:25.299
 retreat or something

01:06:25.299 --> 01:06:26.699
 like that and we

01:06:26.699 --> 01:06:27.619
 guide them through a

01:06:27.619 --> 01:06:28.559
 conversation to find

01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:29.460
 out what's our

01:06:29.460 --> 01:06:31.059
 curriculum can meet

01:06:31.059 --> 01:06:32.079
 the needs the school

01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:32.619
 board's trying to

01:06:32.619 --> 01:06:34.639
 meet and be

01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:35.420
 acceptable to the

01:06:35.420 --> 01:06:36.639
 parents now maybe

01:06:36.639 --> 01:06:37.340
 we can't find that

01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:38.119
 curriculum but what

01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:40.059
 if we can if we

01:06:40.059 --> 01:06:41.239
 could do that if we

01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:41.739
 could do that and

01:06:41.739 --> 01:06:42.299
 they come back and

01:06:42.299 --> 01:06:43.079
 say you know what

01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:43.960
 we're not gonna do

01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:44.779
 this we're gonna do

01:06:44.779 --> 01:06:46.079
 that because this

01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:47.900
 actually teaches about

01:06:47.900 --> 01:06:48.699
 the racial history we

01:06:48.699 --> 01:06:49.860
 want to teach teaches

01:06:49.860 --> 01:06:52.039
 kids about you know

01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:52.880
 structural problems

01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:54.420
 but doesn't but does

01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:55.880
 it in a way that

01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:56.400
 these people don't

01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:59.380
 find insulting would

01:06:59.380 --> 01:07:00.480
 that not be a better

01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:01.300
 because now you have

01:07:01.300 --> 01:07:02.019
 a program that is

01:07:02.019 --> 01:07:04.000
 sustainable no one's

01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:04.699
 gonna protest this

01:07:04.699 --> 01:07:05.800
 program because the

01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:06.780
 parents are gonna go

01:07:06.780 --> 01:07:07.400
 to the other parents

01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:09.079
 and go yeah we bought

01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.000
 onto this program so

01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:12.340
 this is not just a

01:07:12.340 --> 01:07:14.500
 one-on-one this we

01:07:14.500 --> 01:07:15.699
 could actually make

01:07:15.699 --> 01:07:16.900
 changes churches could

01:07:16.900 --> 01:07:18.380
 do this it is a

01:07:18.380 --> 01:07:18.940
 confident in the

01:07:18.940 --> 01:07:20.320
 church bring people

01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:21.300
 together for

01:07:21.300 --> 01:07:22.500
 conversation to build

01:07:22.500 --> 01:07:23.860
 community rather than

01:07:23.860 --> 01:07:25.059
 fostering each other

01:07:25.059 --> 01:07:25.900
 and trying to see who's

01:07:25.900 --> 01:07:27.119
 gonna win out in the

01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:28.360
 book I tell and this

01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:29.380
 has to do with race

01:07:29.380 --> 01:07:30.440
 tell about church

01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:32.840
 split I went through

01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:34.400
 and we had two sides

01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:35.099
 and I was definitely

01:07:35.099 --> 01:07:35.940
 on one of the sides

01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:37.400
 I was I was younger

01:07:37.400 --> 01:07:38.280
 then I was on the

01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:39.140
 young people's side

01:07:39.140 --> 01:07:41.000
 you know we we

01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:41.480
 didn't want to go

01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:42.539
 back to the hymns and

01:07:42.539 --> 01:07:44.200
 we wanted you know and

01:07:44.200 --> 01:07:44.780
 it was that sort of

01:07:44.780 --> 01:07:47.599
 split I admit I did

01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:49.559
 not even consider the

01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:50.460
 perspective of the

01:07:50.460 --> 01:07:53.200
 other side okay we

01:07:53.200 --> 01:07:54.220
 might have been able to

01:07:54.220 --> 01:07:55.360
 find compromises but

01:07:55.360 --> 01:07:58.240
 we didn't even try and

01:07:58.239 --> 01:07:58.899
 that's the mentality we

01:07:58.899 --> 01:08:00.359
 got so so yes this is

01:08:00.359 --> 01:08:01.399
 not just a one-on-one

01:08:01.399 --> 01:08:02.779
 obviously this could

01:08:02.779 --> 01:08:03.579
 help our relationships

01:08:03.579 --> 01:08:04.979
 you know one-on-one

01:08:04.979 --> 01:08:06.179
 level but I think it

01:08:06.179 --> 01:08:07.019
 goes beyond that

01:08:07.019 --> 01:08:08.519
 yeah thank you so

01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:10.139
 much um I think kind

01:08:10.139 --> 01:08:11.299
 of a follow-up

01:08:11.299 --> 01:08:11.859
 question kind of

01:08:11.859 --> 01:08:12.559
 connected to that I

01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:13.319
 appreciate you saying

01:08:13.319 --> 01:08:14.379
 that I'm I'm a

01:08:14.379 --> 01:08:15.399
 teacher so school board

01:08:15.399 --> 01:08:17.179
 issues are something I

01:08:17.179 --> 01:08:19.019
 understand um very

01:08:19.019 --> 01:08:21.019
 closely and um I think

01:08:21.019 --> 01:08:21.880
 one question I have is

01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:23.260
 I think when you when

01:08:23.260 --> 01:08:24.079
 talking about this in a

01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:24.699
 church kind of setting

01:08:24.699 --> 01:08:25.219
 I think there's a

01:08:25.219 --> 01:08:26.199
 recognition of our like

01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:26.779
 you said our human

01:08:26.779 --> 01:08:27.659
 depravity right our

01:08:27.659 --> 01:08:29.319
 sin our innate sinfulness

01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:30.720
 and I wonder in a lot of

01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:31.220
 these school board

01:08:31.220 --> 01:08:31.840
 issues I think you're

01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:32.739
 right there there's a

01:08:32.739 --> 01:08:33.760
 possibility it can work

01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:34.420
 and there's possibly it

01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:35.899
 can't when it when it

01:08:35.899 --> 01:08:36.639
 can't what is our

01:08:36.639 --> 01:08:37.420
 position what is our

01:08:37.420 --> 01:08:38.159
 role and our

01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:38.979
 responsibility as

01:08:38.979 --> 01:08:39.519
 Christians who

01:08:39.519 --> 01:08:40.960
 understand this that

01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:41.899
 the depth of our issue

01:08:41.899 --> 01:08:43.519
 is our sin and not just

01:08:43.519 --> 01:08:44.559
 like these surface issues

01:08:44.559 --> 01:08:46.639
 what is our role to play

01:08:46.639 --> 01:08:47.639
 when it when they do

01:08:47.639 --> 01:08:48.420
 buttheads and there

01:08:48.420 --> 01:08:49.220
 doesn't seem to be

01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:50.920
 either side giving any

01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:51.779
 kind of compromise or

01:08:51.779 --> 01:08:53.579
 perspective or authentic

01:08:53.579 --> 01:08:54.319
 perspective perspective

01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:56.079
 perspective I think I

01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:56.759
 understand your question

01:08:56.759 --> 01:08:57.399
 correctly you're saying

01:08:57.399 --> 01:08:58.019
 all right as a Christian

01:08:58.019 --> 01:08:58.659
 we know that human

01:08:58.659 --> 01:08:59.479
 depravity but if we go

01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:00.619
 in this setting not

01:09:00.619 --> 01:09:01.139
 everyone's gonna be a

01:09:01.139 --> 01:09:01.739
 Christian and human

01:09:01.739 --> 01:09:03.399
 depravity is up so like

01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:04.859
 I said I will talk this

01:09:04.859 --> 01:09:06.079
 on a non-Christian basis

01:09:06.079 --> 01:09:07.519
 and when I do that the

01:09:07.519 --> 01:09:09.299
 scriptures are gone so

01:09:09.299 --> 01:09:10.599
 what I do then at that

01:09:10.599 --> 01:09:11.479
 point is I talk about

01:09:11.479 --> 01:09:12.340
 there are some

01:09:12.340 --> 01:09:13.880
 sociological theories that

01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:14.559
 are very applicable

01:09:14.559 --> 01:09:16.679
 ethnocentrism group

01:09:16.679 --> 01:09:18.359
 interest theory uh

01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:20.299
 confirmation bias so

01:09:20.299 --> 01:09:23.259
 because truth is truth I

01:09:23.260 --> 01:09:24.800
 can talk about this to a

01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:25.739
 non-Christian audience and

01:09:25.739 --> 01:09:26.360
 they can say you cannot

01:09:26.360 --> 01:09:27.720
 bring up God Bible anything

01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:28.920
 like that I'm perfectly

01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:29.840
 fine with that in fact

01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:32.860
 in 2010 I wrote a book

01:09:32.860 --> 01:09:34.699
 with Michael Emerson uh

01:09:34.699 --> 01:09:36.180
 that's an Oxford University

01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:37.699
 press book and of course

01:09:37.699 --> 01:09:38.940
 there's it wasn't a

01:09:38.940 --> 01:09:39.780
 Christian book at all

01:09:39.780 --> 01:09:41.000
 where we where we

01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:42.460
 approach this but we

01:09:42.460 --> 01:09:43.480
 don't use scripture so

01:09:43.480 --> 01:09:45.659
 we can't talk about it uh

01:09:45.659 --> 01:09:47.600
 in a way that is not

01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:49.380
 scripture we can go go to

01:09:49.380 --> 01:09:50.780
 the audience that and

01:09:50.780 --> 01:09:52.820
 adjust to that because the

01:09:52.819 --> 01:09:54.799
 notion of human interest

01:09:54.799 --> 01:09:56.340
 uh that has been

01:09:56.340 --> 01:09:59.039
 documented very well in

01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:00.259
 academia and so there

01:10:00.259 --> 01:10:00.880
 are ways we can talk

01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:02.019
 about it thank you

01:10:02.019 --> 01:10:04.340
 uh thanks Professor

01:10:04.340 --> 01:10:05.179
 Yancey I really enjoyed

01:10:05.179 --> 01:10:06.779
 your talk um quite um

01:10:06.779 --> 01:10:08.460
 I'm also not a pastor so

01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:10.599
 okay um and I work at a

01:10:10.599 --> 01:10:12.559
 university but I think

01:10:12.559 --> 01:10:13.859
 some of the issues are

01:10:13.859 --> 01:10:15.079
 very similar what's going

01:10:15.079 --> 01:10:16.039
 on at the university and

01:10:16.039 --> 01:10:16.880
 elsewhere in the church

01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:19.139
 from what I can see um

01:10:19.139 --> 01:10:20.799
 and you know I want to

01:10:20.799 --> 01:10:21.699
 make sure I'm you know I

01:10:21.699 --> 01:10:22.920
 enjoyed your talk I'm

01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:23.960
 gonna read your book I'm

01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:24.720
 really looking forward to

01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:25.519
 learning more about this

01:10:25.519 --> 01:10:27.179
 topic but I want to make

01:10:27.179 --> 01:10:27.960
 sure I'm not just like

01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:29.179
 that kid coming back from

01:10:29.179 --> 01:10:30.819
 bible camp where I'm all

01:10:30.819 --> 01:10:33.679
 inspired but how do I you

01:10:33.679 --> 01:10:34.599
 know how do I you know

01:10:34.599 --> 01:10:36.199
 continue this and my

01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:37.380
 question is like I really

01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:38.300
 it really resonated me

01:10:38.300 --> 01:10:40.639
 with this uh the win-win

01:10:40.639 --> 01:10:42.300
 scenario so you know I

01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:43.500
 direct a program to

01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:44.639
 increase underrepresented

01:10:44.639 --> 01:10:46.319
 minorities in STEM at this

01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:47.859
 university and and also

01:10:47.859 --> 01:10:49.699
 the pre-med program but in

01:10:49.699 --> 01:10:51.300
 in order for me to do

01:10:51.300 --> 01:10:52.880
 that I'm working with

01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:54.359
 mostly white colleagues

01:10:54.359 --> 01:10:57.159
 and and so my white

01:10:57.159 --> 01:10:58.239
 colleagues thinking we're

01:10:58.239 --> 01:10:59.399
 making a lot of progress

01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:00.239
 but when I talk to my

01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:01.319
 black students feel

01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:02.840
 isolated it's like not

01:11:02.840 --> 01:11:05.139
 enough progress so when

01:11:05.139 --> 01:11:06.500
 it's I'm not seeing win-win

01:11:06.500 --> 01:11:07.559
 then I'm stuck in the

01:11:07.559 --> 01:11:09.220
 middle I'm thinking how do

01:11:09.220 --> 01:11:11.079
 I know it's a win is it

01:11:11.079 --> 01:11:11.880
 because we're having the

01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:14.760
 conversation or it's a win

01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:15.639
 because it's so

01:11:15.639 --> 01:11:17.840
 incremental but then how do

01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:19.000
 I communicate you know so

01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:19.779
 when I'm in the middle I

01:11:19.779 --> 01:11:21.260
 get a community I get two

01:11:21.260 --> 01:11:22.920
 forces coming opposing me

01:11:22.920 --> 01:11:23.939
 from different areas and

01:11:23.939 --> 01:11:25.819
 pulling me but and I also

01:11:25.819 --> 01:11:26.880
 want to be respectful of my

01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:27.720
 white colleagues where they

01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:29.279
 really are trying and they

01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:30.500
 really are trying their best

01:11:30.500 --> 01:11:32.760
 but how do you assess when

01:11:32.760 --> 01:11:34.319
 you're winning and it's a

01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:35.500
 definitely a certain win-win

01:11:35.500 --> 01:11:38.359
 yeah I mean yeah that's a

01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:39.340
 really interesting question

01:11:39.340 --> 01:11:42.199
 uh what I would suggest and

01:11:42.199 --> 01:11:43.500
 by the way in the back of

01:11:43.500 --> 01:11:44.979
 the book I do talk about ways

01:11:44.979 --> 01:11:46.699
 people can continue on so you

01:11:46.699 --> 01:11:47.899
 can keep on that high

01:11:47.899 --> 01:11:49.819
 hopefully there are things I

01:11:49.819 --> 01:11:51.260
 suggest that we can do and

01:11:51.260 --> 01:11:52.039
 it's things I'm trying to

01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:56.119
 start together uh and I you

01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:57.500
 know I wonder if it's

01:11:57.500 --> 01:11:59.939
 possible to take a group of

01:11:59.939 --> 01:12:00.899
 the black student and a group

01:12:00.899 --> 01:12:03.079
 of the white colleagues and to

01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:05.460
 pre-prep them say we want to

01:12:05.460 --> 01:12:06.519
 have a conversation we don't

01:12:06.519 --> 01:12:07.880
 have a debate we want to

01:12:07.880 --> 01:12:09.739
 understand each other all right

01:12:09.739 --> 01:12:11.300
 so and in fact have ground

01:12:11.300 --> 01:12:13.920
 rules on just understanding

01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:15.680
 each other because my sense of

01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:16.899
 it because you know I've been

01:12:16.899 --> 01:12:18.699
 on both sides of things I've

01:12:18.699 --> 01:12:19.600
 been on the side of look you

01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:20.760
 know it's not happening as

01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:21.500
 fast as you are but things

01:12:21.500 --> 01:12:23.060
 are happening and people

01:12:23.060 --> 01:12:23.800
 don't understand they're

01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:25.100
 happening and the other side

01:12:25.100 --> 01:12:26.739
 is man when is this going to

01:12:26.739 --> 01:12:29.340
 take place and so I think it

01:12:29.340 --> 01:12:31.300
 would benefit the professors to

01:12:31.300 --> 01:12:32.279
 hear the frustrations of the

01:12:32.279 --> 01:12:34.119
 students and the students to

01:12:34.119 --> 01:12:36.319
 hear what is good happening

01:12:36.319 --> 01:12:38.760
 uh but I think you have to be

01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:39.819
 very careful how to do it so it

01:12:39.819 --> 01:12:41.880
 doesn't turn into a fight and

01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:42.800
 say we just want to

01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:44.039
 understand each other this is

01:12:44.039 --> 01:12:44.680
 going to be a meaningful

01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:45.840
 understanding which is not is

01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:47.659
 not a debate and all we're

01:12:47.659 --> 01:12:48.119
 going to do is try to

01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:48.760
 understand where people are

01:12:48.760 --> 01:12:52.000
 coming from and I wonder if

01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:52.840
 there could be some good that

01:12:52.840 --> 01:12:54.680
 comes out of that and it's

01:12:54.680 --> 01:12:55.260
 not going to solve the

01:12:55.260 --> 01:12:56.920
 problem completely I mean I'm

01:12:56.920 --> 01:12:58.260
 realistic enough to know that

01:12:58.260 --> 01:12:59.739
 but it may bring more

01:12:59.739 --> 01:13:01.560
 understanding and maybe maybe

01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:02.340
 it'll encourage students hey

01:13:02.340 --> 01:13:03.980
 we have made some progress we

01:13:03.980 --> 01:13:06.000
 want to push for more but we've

01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:07.079
 made some and some

01:13:07.079 --> 01:13:08.199
 professors may say well you

01:13:08.199 --> 01:13:09.480
 know what maybe we can find

01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:12.039
 ways to accelerate this so and

01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:13.479
 and that may be incremental

01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:14.959
 but it may be incremental in

01:13:14.959 --> 01:13:15.519
 that at least they're coming

01:13:15.519 --> 01:13:16.559
 together a little bit closer

01:13:16.559 --> 01:13:19.139
 so that's one possibility that

01:13:19.139 --> 01:13:20.259
 I would think you know but I

01:13:20.259 --> 01:13:21.919
 would definitely want to set I

01:13:21.919 --> 01:13:23.059
 would definitely do it setting

01:13:23.059 --> 01:13:24.959
 ground rules on how the

01:13:24.959 --> 01:13:26.099
 conversation has to happen so

01:13:26.099 --> 01:13:27.739
 that it's not an attack either

01:13:27.739 --> 01:13:30.159
 way thank you so much thank you

01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:35.439
 hi thank you for being here and

01:13:35.439 --> 01:13:36.839
 talking to us about race

01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:38.880
 especially in the church I was

01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:41.180
 wondering when you're talking

01:13:41.180 --> 01:13:43.180
 about arguments in society

01:13:43.180 --> 01:13:45.300
 between one who wants like

01:13:45.300 --> 01:13:47.920
 systematic change which is like

01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:49.480
 the anti-racism side and the

01:13:49.480 --> 01:13:51.140
 other side I've seen that it's

01:13:51.140 --> 01:13:52.900
 more of the it's not necessarily

01:13:52.900 --> 01:13:55.079
 colorblind because those who I've

01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:57.060
 talked to in my family who

01:13:57.060 --> 01:13:58.500
 extended family who might be

01:13:58.500 --> 01:14:00.480
 colorblind would rather just sit

01:14:00.480 --> 01:14:03.760
 and be silent whereas I feel like

01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:06.720
 those who counter protests seem to

01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.000
 be more angry at any change so

01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.800
 with that in mind how would you

01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:16.760
 approach conversations that seem

01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:19.480
 like a win-win when one wants to

01:14:19.480 --> 01:14:21.400
 shed light on here are systemic

01:14:21.400 --> 01:14:24.180
 problems that I feel like should be

01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:26.100
 changed and the other would rather

01:14:26.100 --> 01:14:28.760
 not change anything yeah well

01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:30.920
 obviously part of that is they're

01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:33.119
 going to have to figure out you

01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:34.460
 know why they don't want to change

01:14:34.460 --> 01:14:35.680
 and why they do want to change it

01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:38.000
 and see what they can you know so

01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:40.739
 that but I want to go back to what

01:14:40.739 --> 01:14:42.159
 you said you know that there's a

01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:43.600
 group that it's not necessarily

01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:44.859
 colorblind but they just don't want

01:14:44.859 --> 01:14:47.680
 to engage is that capture so I

01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:49.039
 wonder how much of that group is a

01:14:49.039 --> 01:14:51.760
 group that doesn't have doesn't

01:14:51.760 --> 01:14:54.440
 hold to either side okay see all

01:14:54.440 --> 01:14:58.159
 right here's I think this helps

01:14:58.159 --> 01:15:00.279
 understand the situations because the

01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:02.559
 problem is the people are allowed

01:15:02.559 --> 01:15:04.599
 us the ones who get heard all right

01:15:04.599 --> 01:15:09.859
 so critical race theory it represents

01:15:09.859 --> 01:15:12.239
 something to people whether they

01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:13.539
 understand what it is or not is

01:15:13.539 --> 01:15:15.519
 almost irrelevant critical race theory

01:15:15.519 --> 01:15:17.840
 signals something to people all right

01:15:17.840 --> 01:15:19.279
 so there's a there's a poll out there

01:15:19.279 --> 01:15:21.300
 that I think is very insightful shows

01:15:21.300 --> 01:15:24.019
 that 25 percent of the people hate

01:15:24.019 --> 01:15:26.239
 critical race theory 20 percent of

01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:30.059
 people love race theory and 55 percent

01:15:30.059 --> 01:15:33.099
 are somewhere in the middle so we

01:15:33.099 --> 01:15:36.279
 think that the 20 25 percent is the

01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:39.659
 whole country but it's not 55 percent

01:15:39.659 --> 01:15:41.260
 of people some of them may lean one way

01:15:41.260 --> 01:15:43.039
 the other some of them don't know much

01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:45.300
 about it some of them are like you

01:15:45.300 --> 01:15:47.119
 know what both these sides I can't go

01:15:47.119 --> 01:15:48.579
 to either one of these sides because I

01:15:48.579 --> 01:15:50.059
 understand both sides and I don't agree

01:15:50.059 --> 01:15:53.659
 with anyone's sides half the country is

01:15:53.659 --> 01:15:55.720
 to some degree or not not in this

01:15:55.720 --> 01:15:58.039
 polarization the polarized people get

01:15:58.039 --> 01:15:59.779
 all I mean they write the blogs they

01:15:59.779 --> 01:16:01.819
 on the TV shows they get a look to

01:16:01.819 --> 01:16:03.479
 Congress they're the ones who make all

01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:05.819
 the noise some of the people I think

01:16:05.819 --> 01:16:08.539
 you're describing you know are not

01:16:08.539 --> 01:16:10.039
 colorblind but they're not anti-racism

01:16:10.039 --> 01:16:11.680
 they're just in that middle and they

01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:13.139
 don't know what they want to do or

01:16:13.139 --> 01:16:14.739
 they want or they've they want to stay

01:16:14.739 --> 01:16:16.319
 side they want to engage because they

01:16:16.319 --> 01:16:18.460
 don't find the right venue this is why

01:16:18.460 --> 01:16:20.239
 I'm hopeful for that this sort of idea

01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:21.840
 can catch on because I think there's a

01:16:21.840 --> 01:16:24.340
 lot of people it'll be attractive to

01:16:24.340 --> 01:16:28.020
 who aren't you know I I realize that

01:16:28.020 --> 01:16:29.819
 someone who's who's deeply embedded

01:16:29.819 --> 01:16:31.220
 in either colorblindness or anti-racism

01:16:31.220 --> 01:16:32.560
 at first is not going to want to have a

01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:35.520
 conversation so we have to find other

01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:36.560
 people who are more one of the

01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:38.640
 conversation and visibly drag them along

01:16:38.640 --> 01:16:40.420
 so I think that that's where the

01:16:40.420 --> 01:16:42.500
 dynamic but I say I I think you can find

01:16:42.500 --> 01:16:44.440
 something people who don't want to

01:16:44.440 --> 01:16:46.020
 change people do want change if they're

01:16:46.020 --> 01:16:47.860
 willing to engage the question is are

01:16:47.860 --> 01:16:49.800
 they willing to engage in a helpful

01:16:49.800 --> 01:16:52.800
 way and that's the key thank you so

01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:57.779
 much thank you last question yes okay

01:16:57.779 --> 01:17:00.279
 thank you dr. Yancy for everything today

01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:02.400
 and I think from a Christian's first

01:17:02.400 --> 01:17:04.300
 perspective of depravity and grace

01:17:04.300 --> 01:17:06.720
 there's like a lot of beauty in in the

01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:08.699
 in the compassion that in this approach

01:17:08.699 --> 01:17:11.560
 to racial healing but I also know that

01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:13.619
 especially it's like you early a lot of

01:17:13.619 --> 01:17:15.600
 people would say that it's a tall ask to

01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:17.680
 tell people who have suffered pain and

01:17:17.680 --> 01:17:21.260
 adversity to basically make concessions

01:17:21.260 --> 01:17:22.640
 towards a group that have caused the pain

01:17:22.640 --> 01:17:26.380
 and say oh how can I express just like

01:17:26.380 --> 01:17:28.440
 demand justice but also do it nicely

01:17:28.440 --> 01:17:32.740
 right without insulting them right so I

01:17:32.740 --> 01:17:34.980
 think obviously it's hard to you know

01:17:34.980 --> 01:17:36.860
 have just true justice outside of Jesus

01:17:36.860 --> 01:17:39.820
 but how do you how do we encourage people

01:17:39.819 --> 01:17:41.939
 who the first emotion they feel is anger

01:17:41.939 --> 01:17:45.939
 and pain and encourage them towards

01:17:45.939 --> 01:17:47.899
 compassion even and but also while

01:17:47.899 --> 01:17:50.359
 recognizing you know what what anger is

01:17:50.359 --> 01:17:52.239
 righteous and what you know the real

01:17:52.239 --> 01:17:53.759
 injustice there you know how do we do

01:17:53.759 --> 01:17:56.159
 both those things now there's multiple

01:17:56.159 --> 01:17:58.899
 levels to this question here so so let me

01:17:58.899 --> 01:18:03.759
 try to tackle this first our emotional angst

01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:08.060
 and anger sometimes what we need is to

01:18:08.060 --> 01:18:10.500
 just vent to people to let people know

01:18:10.500 --> 01:18:13.460
 we're angry and there's a place for that

01:18:13.460 --> 01:18:18.380
 one thing that I think is key is that you

01:18:18.380 --> 01:18:20.380
 know if I have a friend who's hurt and

01:18:20.380 --> 01:18:22.420
 they want to vent to me that's not the

01:18:22.420 --> 01:18:24.280
 time for me to say well that won't work

01:18:24.280 --> 01:18:27.300
 right for example I'll just give you an

01:18:27.300 --> 01:18:29.340
 example you know if I'm with a woman

01:18:29.340 --> 01:18:31.699
 who's been abused and she's talking

01:18:31.699 --> 01:18:33.699
 about how awful men are that's not

01:18:33.699 --> 01:18:34.779
 time for me to say well not all of us

01:18:34.779 --> 01:18:38.059
 are awful if she's talking about well

01:18:38.059 --> 01:18:39.659
 you know they should if a guy's

01:18:39.659 --> 01:18:40.979
 accused of rape he should be thrown in

01:18:40.979 --> 01:18:42.939
 jail and keep throwing away that's not

01:18:42.939 --> 01:18:44.619
 me tell talk to her about due process

01:18:44.619 --> 01:18:48.840
 rights right now if she says now George

01:18:48.840 --> 01:18:50.279
 I want you to write the congressman to

01:18:50.279 --> 01:18:52.300
 get rid of due process rights at that

01:18:52.300 --> 01:18:54.960
 point I would have to say you're asking

01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:57.220
 me to do something I have the right to

01:18:57.220 --> 01:18:58.939
 be convinced it's the right thing to do

01:18:58.939 --> 01:19:01.260
 now if you want to talk about how awful

01:19:01.260 --> 01:19:03.840
 men are and stuff like that given what

01:19:03.840 --> 01:19:06.280
 happened to you I understand but if

01:19:06.280 --> 01:19:07.640
 you're going to ask me to do something

01:19:07.640 --> 01:19:11.420
 as a human as a child of God I have a

01:19:11.420 --> 01:19:13.420
 right to be convinced it's the right

01:19:13.420 --> 01:19:15.880
 thing to do you can ask me and if I have

01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:18.260
 to I'll trouble look you know due process

01:19:18.260 --> 01:19:19.539
 right means something to people look like

01:19:19.539 --> 01:19:22.780
 me we're the ones who real so you know

01:19:22.780 --> 01:19:24.699
 for me to ask due process rights to be

01:19:24.699 --> 01:19:28.260
 jettisoned I have to be convinced so

01:19:28.260 --> 01:19:31.140
 so there's that level of it and

01:19:31.140 --> 01:19:32.579
 sometimes and I'll say this to white

01:19:32.579 --> 01:19:33.840
 sometimes when a person calls vitting

01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:37.460
 that's what it is and I think that you

01:19:37.460 --> 01:19:38.800
 know the right thing to do is let them

01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:41.119
 vent until they ask you to do something

01:19:41.119 --> 01:19:43.320
 then you do have the right to say you

01:19:43.320 --> 01:19:45.579
 know I'm not convinced to do that you

01:19:45.579 --> 01:19:47.119
 want a shoulder to cry on if you want

01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:49.420
 someone to vent to I'm here for you I'm

01:19:49.420 --> 01:19:52.579
 your friend right now let's get to that

01:19:52.579 --> 01:19:58.940
 point of doing something all right it is a

01:19:58.940 --> 01:20:00.739
 fine line sometimes between justice and

01:20:00.739 --> 01:20:03.579
 revenge and here's a classic example of

01:20:03.579 --> 01:20:09.359
 this in Cuba passista was cruel and that

01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:15.579
 led to Castro taking over now same people

01:20:15.579 --> 01:20:18.319
 who supported Castro's take over what

01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:20.319
 happened when Castro took over did he

01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:25.199
 produce justice or did we not see an

01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:27.519
 improvement in human rights in Cuba

01:20:27.519 --> 01:20:30.259
 because the same sort of power that

01:20:30.259 --> 01:20:32.479
 led to the takeover was now maintained by

01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:37.659
 Castro and used as an iron fist someone

01:20:37.659 --> 01:20:40.699
 who's victimized can grow up to victimize

01:20:40.699 --> 01:20:42.479
 others in fact research shows that this

01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:47.719
 happens a lot being victim doesn't mean

01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:49.140
 that you're going to be the best moral

01:20:49.140 --> 01:20:51.039
 person for everything that's hard to

01:20:51.039 --> 01:20:54.199
 hear but it's true so we each other we

01:20:54.199 --> 01:20:57.600
 need to listen to victims but not just to

01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:02.659
 victims we have to work together and

01:21:02.659 --> 01:21:04.159
 that's where it comes in so when the

01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:08.119
 person is ready to work is there gonna be

01:21:08.119 --> 01:21:09.920
 more emotional cost for people color than

01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:14.720
 whites probably most likely yes but here's

01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:16.720
 the reality that's how things get changed

01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:20.539
 so you have to decide is it worth it to

01:21:20.539 --> 01:21:25.220
 change things you know as I sometimes

01:21:25.220 --> 01:21:27.140
 hear people say something to the effect of

01:21:27.140 --> 01:21:29.699
 well look you know I can't have that

01:21:29.699 --> 01:21:30.920
 come and by the way there are times I

01:21:30.920 --> 01:21:32.420
 cannot have the conversation with people

01:21:32.420 --> 01:21:34.880
 too I get off Facebook sometimes because I

01:21:34.880 --> 01:21:36.199
 cannot have the conversation with people

01:21:36.199 --> 01:21:39.720
 sometimes so taking a break is sometimes

01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:42.440
 you need that because sometimes you do want to

01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:44.399
 feel like put your hands around someone's neck

01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:47.500
 and that's not a godly feeling to have so

01:21:47.500 --> 01:21:50.559
 you take a break and you know and all of us

01:21:50.559 --> 01:21:52.099
 need that from time to time all right all

01:21:52.099 --> 01:21:53.719
 of us need a break from time to time all

01:21:53.719 --> 01:21:54.739
 so I'm not saying that you're a person

01:21:54.739 --> 01:21:56.379
 called you have to always be on and always

01:21:56.379 --> 01:21:59.059
 be ready for an answer and no no no no no no no

01:21:59.059 --> 01:22:02.579
 but if you want change this is how people

01:22:02.579 --> 01:22:04.139
 change so when I hear people say something

01:22:04.139 --> 01:22:06.439
 like well you know what I'm tired of talking

01:22:06.439 --> 01:22:07.979
 about this why don't you go read a book and

01:22:07.979 --> 01:22:10.699
 then come to me I'm like really someone

01:22:10.699 --> 01:22:12.399
 comes to you and said they want to understand

01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:15.319
 and you send them to a book what we as

01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:16.599
 Christians if someone says you know I

01:22:16.599 --> 01:22:18.779
 really understand Jesus well go read this

01:22:18.779 --> 01:22:20.420
 Tim Keller book and then come back talk to

01:22:20.420 --> 01:22:22.819
 me about it we wouldn't because we know

01:22:22.819 --> 01:22:24.599
 that we've lost an opportunity to talk to

01:22:24.599 --> 01:22:27.960
 someone about Christ so unless I'm in the

01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:29.979
 stage where I'm like I need to be away

01:22:29.979 --> 01:22:31.539
 from this for a while if I am I'm away from

01:22:31.539 --> 01:22:33.599
 everyone except for my family of course

01:22:33.599 --> 01:22:37.559
 and close friends unless I'm in that stage

01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:39.539
 I want to talk to people who honestly

01:22:39.539 --> 01:22:42.560
 want to talk about it now if I if I figure

01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.280
 out soon that they don't honestly want to

01:22:44.280 --> 01:22:45.920
 talk about it and they just want to rage

01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.320
 and just want to then then yeah I pull

01:22:48.320 --> 01:22:50.320
 away but someone honestly wants to talk

01:22:50.320 --> 01:22:55.020
 about something and I tell them no then

01:22:55.020 --> 01:22:58.800
 yeah my my chance to impact their life has

01:22:58.800 --> 01:23:00.880
 just been greatly diminished and it's on me

01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:04.440
 now that is that is hard a hard thing to

01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:08.199
 hear in an emotional state I get that but

01:23:08.199 --> 01:23:10.859
 that's also reality that's that's just

01:23:10.859 --> 01:23:12.539
 the reality of it it's I know in my life

01:23:12.539 --> 01:23:14.439
 if if I say hey you know I'm understand

01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:15.859
 something about you know if I go to a

01:23:15.859 --> 01:23:17.000
 woman I'm understand something about how

01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:18.879
 you feel about how you know how men treat

01:23:18.879 --> 01:23:20.159
 you and she's well why don't you go read

01:23:20.159 --> 01:23:22.539
 a book I'm like well maybe it may be that

01:23:22.539 --> 01:23:23.799
 big of a deal to you after all if you're

01:23:23.799 --> 01:23:25.439
 not getting to spend any time now you may

01:23:25.439 --> 01:23:27.759
 say you're cruel but come on that's the

01:23:27.759 --> 01:23:31.859
 way it is we can wish is a different way

01:23:31.859 --> 01:23:34.699
 or we can even accept reality the way it

01:23:34.699 --> 01:23:39.679
 is and you know I just choose to accept

01:23:39.679 --> 01:23:43.439
 reality and so the path forward the path

01:23:43.439 --> 01:23:45.539
 forward is for us to work together I

01:23:45.539 --> 01:23:47.319
 believe at the end of the day and once

01:23:47.319 --> 01:23:48.859
 you can't you can't preordain the

01:23:48.859 --> 01:23:50.979
 solutions because that's part of what

01:23:50.979 --> 01:23:52.839
 what drives you away is you say I have a

01:23:52.839 --> 01:23:54.159
 agenda we're gonna do this agenda no

01:23:54.159 --> 01:23:55.819
 matter what I think at the end of the day

01:23:55.819 --> 01:24:00.139
 if we engaged in this 20 years from now

01:24:00.140 --> 01:24:02.500
 we'll be a lot closer to justice if we

01:24:02.500 --> 01:24:03.640
 keep doing what we're doing right now

01:24:03.640 --> 01:24:05.960
 because we'll get sustainable systems

01:24:05.960 --> 01:24:08.300
 and people of color will not get

01:24:08.300 --> 01:24:10.640
 everything they want but they'll get a

01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:11.920
 lot more than what we're getting right

01:24:11.920 --> 01:24:14.460
 now because you can you can win the

01:24:14.460 --> 01:24:16.180
 presidency and you can get you know the

01:24:16.180 --> 01:24:18.360
 people in office and in four years it's

01:24:18.360 --> 01:24:21.940
 all gone or you can build relationships

01:24:21.940 --> 01:24:23.260
 and build something that's sustainable

01:24:23.260 --> 01:24:24.960
 and maybe you don't get everything you

01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:27.820
 get 80% of it but it's gonna be there so

01:24:27.819 --> 01:24:31.259
 you decide which one you want now

01:24:31.259 --> 01:24:34.319
 someone in in the emotional they're

01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:35.759
 not ready for that decision and once

01:24:35.759 --> 01:24:37.500
 again maybe what they need is to vent

01:24:37.500 --> 01:24:40.159
 and get to the point to where they're

01:24:40.159 --> 01:24:42.019
 there and that's fine and sometimes you

01:24:42.019 --> 01:24:45.279
 need to drop away from it but the long

01:24:45.279 --> 01:24:47.899
 term I believe this this is the better

01:24:47.899 --> 01:24:49.840
 path towards just and to make sure the

01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:54.960
 justice is not turning to revenge and if

01:24:54.960 --> 01:24:56.300
 we understand human depravity we understand

01:24:56.300 --> 01:24:59.399
 that justice can turn into revenge

01:24:59.399 --> 01:25:01.899
 thanks for the question

01:25:01.899 --> 01:25:06.680
 thank you for engaging with Dr. George Yancey

01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:10.399
 and I don't want to just tell you to go

01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:13.380
 read a book but but I do want to tell you

01:25:13.380 --> 01:25:15.420
 since Dr. George Yancey is going to soon

01:25:15.420 --> 01:25:17.279
 travel back to Texas and won't be here

01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:19.760
 so we won't be able to talk to him he does

01:25:19.760 --> 01:25:22.079
 actually address very specifically a lot of

01:25:22.079 --> 01:25:23.579
 these questions that you guys have raised

01:25:23.579 --> 01:25:25.539
 for example how does Christianity uniquely

01:25:25.539 --> 01:25:27.819
 shape us and equip us to deal with these

01:25:27.819 --> 01:25:29.899
 issues you know how do we how does how

01:25:29.899 --> 01:25:31.199
 about the fact that there are people who

01:25:31.199 --> 01:25:32.739
 are emotionally pained and hurt in the

01:25:32.739 --> 01:25:35.119
 past like isn't unfair to ask them to

01:25:35.119 --> 01:25:36.739
 come to the table you know and have a

01:25:36.739 --> 01:25:38.659
 conversation all these questions are

01:25:38.659 --> 01:25:41.479
 really well addressed in his book beyond

01:25:41.479 --> 01:25:44.439
 racial division so I encourage you to

01:25:44.439 --> 01:25:46.479
 all get get a copy of it if you didn't

01:25:46.479 --> 01:25:49.059
 register early enough to get one today and

01:25:49.060 --> 01:25:51.400
 and let's all give a round of applause to

01:25:51.400 --> 01:25:54.060
 Dr. George Yancey thank you for coming