Thanks Johnny, nice to be with you here in Carrickaline tonight.
I think I've just been through Carrickaline before so I've never actually stopped in it.
So it's nice to stop in it and stay in tonight so I don't have to go the whole way back to cabin.
So it's nice to be here.
You may be thinking already that doesn't sound much like a cabin accent.
Well it's not.
And in case you're trying to work out where it's from, it's from the other great footballing county in Ireland.
Which of course is Tyrone.
And I'm from Tyrone originally and lived in England for a while so my accent got mixed up there.
And I've been in cabin now for the past eight years.
So I have children with cabin accents.
They've got the real genuine thing.
But hopefully you'll be able to understand and follow me tonight.
But as Johnny said, if you have any questions as we go along, feel free to ask those.
Or we'll have time at the end as well for your questions.
Or if you want to come up and chat to me afterwards.
I can't claim to have all the answers.
As Johnny said, I trained as a doctor.
Worked in hospitals for a while and then as a GP.
And I've been working as a pastor then recently.
And I'll say a bit about that as we go through.
And maybe talk about the experience in medical practice and the experience now as a pastor.
Sure.
So in thinking then about this subject of depression.
I wonder how you're feeling tonight.
If somebody asks you a question like that.
That's the way they ask it in cabin.
How are you?
And then usually people will say something like, not a bother.
And you maybe try to give the impression that you feel a bit like this.
But perhaps on the inside you're feeling a bit more like that.
So the subject of depression is one that is common.
And it's one also that may affect you.
Maybe that's why you've come this evening.
If it doesn't affect you personally, it will affect someone that you know.
And the thing is, as we know, it's a serious condition.
It's a condition that causes a lot of suffering, a lot of pain, a lot of mental turmoil.
And it is, of course, a condition that can lead to end of life.
That suicide happens in some of the people who are depressed.
I read a statistic recently that in Ireland, around 500 people a year will take their own life.
So it's a serious condition.
It's something that it's good to be concerned about.
It's good to think about.
So I'm glad then that you've come this evening.
And hopefully you learned something in our time together.
As it said on the little invite card, if you had one of those, my wife is working as a psychiatrist.
She's a doctor in the community mental health team for Cabin and Monaghan.
So she's working part-time in that.
So it's something that we talk about from time to time.
So even though I've been out of medical practice for a few years now,
my wife is doing it from week to week.
And she helps to keep my head right.
So it's good to be able to talk things over with her and to talk about these issues.
So I try and keep a bit up to date.
And we'll talk a little bit about the definition, what actually is depression.
It can be a bit of a slippery term.
And then we'll look at some of the symptoms that you may experience with depression.
Then we'll take some time and think about the causes before we come on to the cure for depression
and helps with those who have depression.
So what is depression?
Probably all of us have thought at times in some way, I'm depressed and just fed up.
But there's a difference between just having a day when you're a bit down and actually having depression.
So I checked up with my wife about this recently.
Actually, my wife and I were sharing a seminar.
We did a training seminar for youth workers a few weeks back to help youth workers,
help young people with mental health issues.
So I was able to update some of my knowledge on depression as I was listening to my wife.
And she used this slide.
And psychiatrists have quite a defined, definite way of classifying depression.
And so I'll just mention something about this slide and then I'll go on to use my other slide
to kind of break it down a bit.
So psychiatrists will divide depression into mild, moderate and severe.
And there's three key symptoms as far as they're concerned.
Number one, depressed mood.
Number two, a loss of interest.
And number three, easily tired.
So for someone to have what they classify as a mild depressive episode,
you need to have two out of those three at the top for at least two weeks.
So just feeling depressed a day here and there, that isn't actually clinical depression,
what a psychiatrist would call depression.
But if it goes on for, I think it's for most days in a two-week period,
then it could be diagnosed as mild depression.
Two out of three of those key symptoms plus two of these other symptoms.
So I know it's a bit small, so I'll just run through what's on the right.
Reduced concentration, reduced attention, reduced self-esteem and confidence,
ideas of guilt, pessimistic about the future,
ideas or acts of self-harmers or of suicide,
disturbed sleep or disturbed appetite.
So we'll come back to some of those and I'll say a bit more about it.
You might be wondering for yourself tonight,
do I really have depression, do I not?
Perhaps this will help you with that.
Or maybe you're wondering if it's somebody that you care for,
somebody that you are concerned about and you're wondering how to help them.
So mild depression and then moderate is really more of those symptoms,
more of what's on the right-hand side.
It says plus three or preferably four of those symptoms.
And it's really impacting your daily life.
It stops you doing your normal things.
And then severe, it includes agitation and distress
and often a loss of self-esteem, guilt or worthlessness.
So that's just to give you a little flavor of the way in which psychiatrists define depression.
They look on it very specifically.
These come from, I think it's the ICD-10,
which is an international way of classifying all kinds of diseases,
not just mental but all physical diseases as well.
So we break it down into something a bit more straightforward.
It can come down into physical symptoms, emotional,
and then ways that affects your behavior and thinking.
So physical symptoms, sleep disturbance.
Classic one in depression, can't sleep.
Often it is that you wake up earlier in the morning
and it's classically defined as waking up two hours before your normal awakening time.
Now I know with the clocks come back there,
our sleep might be a bit mixed up.
I'm finding myself waking even earlier than usual.
And we're all different, but these are sort of general guidelines.
Change of appetite, usually loss of appetite,
but it can be an increase in appetite as well.
Loss of energy and poor concentration.
Perhaps you can't concentrate to read like you used to.
That would be one way it would affect people.
Change in behavior, stop doing things.
Maybe because of the poor concentration,
perhaps because of a loss of interest,
you become withdrawn.
Maybe take to the bed, find it hard to get up.
Those who maybe were very careful about their physical appearance
begin to neglect themselves and self-harm.
So if self-harm is an issue and suicidal thoughts,
do you think that it's a sensible thing to bring that up?
With somebody who's suffering from depression,
do you think that it might put that idea in their head
so you shouldn't bring it up?
Anybody?
Is it okay to bring up the people?
Ask them, have you ever thought of farming yourself?
I don't think it's okay to bring it up.
It is, yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
That's the general advice,
that it's fine to bring it up
because somebody,
if they're thinking about it anyway,
it'll just give them a chance to talk about it
and a chance for them to unburden themselves to you.
So we're jumping ahead there a little bit
to how to help people with depression,
but it's okay to talk about.
It's a good thing to ask somebody
who's feeling dying.
Emotional symptoms, low mood.
I've got a book here that I've found helpful about depression
and it's got some descriptions of just how people feel
and they say here,
depressive speech is poetic.
Prose doesn't capture the experience,
so it's either silence or poetry.
And here's how some people have put it.
I felt like I was walking through a field of dead flowers
and found one beautiful rose,
but when I bent down to smell it,
I fell into an invisible hole.
I heard my silent scream echo and pierce through my empty soul.
Or somebody else says,
I feel as though I died a few weeks ago
and my body hasn't found out yet.
Or, here's another one, one more,
I could weep by the hour like a child
and yet I know not what I wept for.
So it's not just a feeling a bit off,
but a profound sadness often
with those who are suffering from depression.
Anxiety can often go along with it,
not always, but often.
Irritability,
shorter fuse than usual,
loss of enjoyment.
Loss of enjoyment in the things
that you used to really like doing.
That's often an important symptom
in depression and in apathy,
not wanting to be bothered.
Altered thinking then.
So depression can affect
the way you think about yourself,
the way you think about the past,
the way you think about the world in general,
and the way you think about the future.
So yourself,
the feelings of low self-worth,
lack of confidence.
The past, guilt.
Well, it's normal to be guilty
and you've done something wrong.
But in depression,
that can tend to be exaggerated.
So somebody has minorly offended someone
like years ago
and they start to get really guilty about it
and feel really, really bad about it.
Or maybe it's even a guilt
that they didn't actually do something wrong,
they just feel guilty.
And that can be a symptom in depression.
Or altering thinking about the world,
feeling people are against you.
Sometimes at the severe end of depression,
there are actually delusions
where people have a fixed false belief.
So they might think their next-door neighbours
are in a plot to poison them
or put poisonous gas into their house.
So that can be at the severe end of depression.
Or it might be just a general feeling of
they're looking at me,
I think they're against me.
And then,
altered thinking about the future.
And this is something that's
really important to counteract in depression.
It's a dangerous thing
when people lose hope.
And if you're trying to help somebody
with depression,
an important thing to counteract that with
is that encourage them
that there is hope,
that there is light at the end of the tunnel,
that there's hope.
There's hope.
And I would want that to be a message
to you tonight as well.
If it's you,
if some of these symptoms are describing you,
that there is hope.
There is hope.
There is help out there.
When people start to lose hope,
it's a dangerous thing, really.
So we need to be encouraged
and remind that there is hope.
So what causes depression then?
Let's move on to the causes.
And then, as I said,
we've come to think about treatments.
So there's not usually a single cause
in somebody's depression.
It's usually what doctors call
multifactorial.
Lots of different factors.
Different things contributing to it.
Loss events
can often precede depression.
So losing a loved one,
bereavement,
or maybe losing your job
through redundancy,
or even through retirement.
Or maybe it's loss of health,
or loss of money,
financial crisis,
or something like that.
It can sometimes be good life events
that could be like a promotion,
or the birth of a baby.
Something that triggers it off.
Some change
can often trigger depression.
Family history.
It's in your family.
You're a bit more likely.
It doesn't mean you're going
to suffer from depression,
but there can often be
a family connection.
Early experiences,
particularly abuse.
Those who've been abused as children,
there is a link
with developing depression
later on in life.
personality.
Those who generally are
melancholy,
melancholy type of personality.
But it doesn't always go along.
Sometimes people are very outgoing,
they appear very happy,
on the outside even,
and inside there can be
deep sadness.
Physical illness.
So,
we're going to be saying
in a moment with treatment
that it is important
to go to
your doctor
if you have a significant
level of depression.
The doctor then
would check
for
physical illnesses,
particularly those
that are related
in some way
to depression.
Hypothyroidism
is one that needs
to be ruled out
or ruled in
by your doctor.
So,
checking the level
of the thyroid hormone
in your body
because people
that have low
thyroid hormone,
hypothyroidism,
can end up
with depression.
And if it's treated
with a simple
tablet every day
to keep your thyroid hormone
normal,
it can often
improve things,
improve your general energy
and improve your mood.
Other things
like diabetes,
certain forms of cancer,
can be related
in some way
to developing depression.
So,
physical illness
can sometimes
be linked to depression.
Alcohol
and drugs.
People think
about alcohol
as something
that makes you happy,
stimulates you,
but it's actually
a depressant.
And to drink
when you're sad
can be a dangerous thing
and it can lead
into addiction.
And drugs
are similar as well.
A friend of mine
in Calvin,
he's been struggling
with heroin
and other drugs
as well.
And since he's
come off drugs,
I've noticed
a great change
in his mood
and just how
happier he is
when he was on them.
He's often
a lot more
depressed.
Medication.
Some medications
prescribed by doctors
for other conditions
have the side effect
of contributing
to depression.
For example,
beta blockers
that are used
for high blood pressure
and heart disease,
some of them
can be linked
to causing depression.
But don't go out there
and stop your medication
right away.
Best to talk
that over
with your doctor.
So those are
some of the causes
anyway.
And as I say,
it often can be
more than one
in some kind
of combination
that leads
to the development
of depression.
So what about
the treatment then?
What can be done
to help?
Well,
this is the sort
of classic
somebody going to see
what the Americans
call their shrink.
And that's not
the first line
in helping you
with depression.
Most people
with depression
don't need to end up
seeing somebody
like my wife
going along
to see a psychiatrist.
That's kind of
just for some
and I'll say
in a moment
who it's helpful for.
First line
of treatment
really is to talk
to somebody.
It doesn't have
to be a doctor
even.
It doesn't have
to be some
official person
but just talking
to somebody
about how you're
feeling.
Sharing it.
There is some
truth in that
old saying
that a problem
shared is a
problem halved.
So it's good
to talk to
somebody,
to find somebody
you can trust
and to talk
to a pastor
like Johnny
or to talk
to perhaps
your husband
or wife
or girlfriend,
some family
members,
maybe a friend,
maybe somebody
has brought you
tonight or whatever.
It's good to talk
with someone.
And then
establish a routine.
As we saw
earlier,
when you're
depressed,
you often
don't feel
like doing
things.
And it's
easy to get
out of routine,
to maybe lie
in bed longer,
to not do
the stuff
that you used
to do.
And often
that can send
you into
a downward
spiral.
Because you're
not doing
things,
you lose
confidence.
Because you're
losing confidence,
you don't do
things and
you end up
feeling worse.
But if
somehow you can
keep a routine
going,
and by routine
I mean
continuing to
eat,
continuing to
have
mealtimes,
continuing to
do stuff,
even though
you're maybe
not enjoying
it as much
as you used
to,
just sort of
keep that
routine.
Exercise.
I spoke
on this
subject a
while back
up in
County
Antrim,
and a
man came
to him at
the end
and he
said,
what is it
about exercise
that cures
depression?
And that
was his
experience.
He had
been quite
severely
depressed,
and his
doctor told
him to
exercise,
and he
had got
into this
habit of
going out
for regular
walks,
and it
really transformed
how he felt.
So it is
important,
it won't cure
everybody like
that,
but it is
important to
get out there,
to do something
physical,
to keep a
routine going
of some sort.
Again,
with sleep,
there's a lot
of you might
think,
I need a
sleeping tablet,
I need
medication,
but there's
other things
you can do
to help
with sleep.
Doctors call
it sleep
hygiene,
sleep hygiene,
it doesn't
mean having
a wash
before you
go to bed,
but it's
just tidying
up your
sleeping.
For example,
not looking
at screens,
not doing
Facebook just
before you
go to bed,
not having
your tea
and coffee
maybe too
late in the
evening,
things like
that you can
change around
to perhaps
help your
chances of
getting a
good sleep.
Then visit
the doctor.
As I've
said,
if you're
feeling down
on most
days in the
two week
period and
you've got
some of
those other
symptoms and
you feel,
you know,
I think I
am depressed,
then go to
your doctor,
talk to your
doctor about
it and the
doctor will
most likely
do some of
those initial
blood tests
and give you
some advice,
you might be
thinking,
just give me
a tablet
doctor.
But that's
not necessarily
the best
thing.
When I was
young,
growing up in
the north,
there was an
ad on the
telly which
said something
like,
you don't need
a pill for
every ill,
let the
doctor decide.
And it's
true,
the answer
isn't always
in pills.
Sometimes the
doctor will
refer you for
counselling or
something like
CBT,
cognitive
behavioural
therapy.
An idea
of that is
affecting your
cognitive
function,
that's just
your thinking,
cognition,
thinking,
in order to
affect your
behaviour.
Because often
with depression
we've got
negative thoughts
and that leads
to negative
behaviour.
But if we
can challenge
our negative
thinking,
often our
false,
wrong thinking,
and remind
ourselves of
what is
actually true,
some good
thoughts that
can help
our behaviour.
That's what
CBT is,
in a nutshell,
that's the
basis of it.
So that can
often be
helpful.
So what about
the place of
medication and
psychiatrists?
Well,
medication does
have a part to
play.
I checked up
these statistics
with my wife
and the
thinking is
that medication
will help
around one
third of the
people who
have depression.
So around
one third of
those diagnosed
with depression
will improve
when they're
given medication.
A third
will just
stay the
same and
a third
will likely
end up
getting worse.
So it's
not the
cure for
everybody,
but it can
be helpful.
And you
maybe think,
well, why is
it helpful?
How does it
work?
And why
does it
not work?
Is it not
just that we
have got a
chemical imbalance
and surely if
you give a
tablet then
that will
help?
A bit like
the thyroid
problem that
we talked
about earlier.
But it's
not just as
straightforward as
that with
depression in
general.
You can't
do a test of
the chemicals
in your brain
to see what
needs boosted.
Doctors only
know that
there's a
chemical imbalance
from others
tests and
looking at
brains and
all kinds of
complicated
laboratory tests.
You see,
it could be
that the
chemicals are
imbalanced in
your brain
because your
thinking has
gone wrong.
So doctors
don't quite know
which leads
to which.
Maybe your
thinking isn't
going quite well
for various
factors and
then the
chemicals go
down.
and so
some of the
medication
that's used,
Prozac type
medication,
the family of
drugs,
are they
serotonin
reuptake
inhibitors.
So they boost
serotonin in
your brain and
that can help
some people.
You might worry
about medication,
will it be
addictive?
Well, the
types of
medication that
doctors tend to
use nowadays
aren't
addictive in
the same way
as some of
those that were
used more in
the past are.
And I mean
medications like
the benzodiazepine
family, like
Valium,
Diazepam,
D10s,
D5s,
whatever,
Xanax,
those types of
medication
aren't prescribed
near as much
by doctors now
and they do
tend to be
very addictive.
So the ones
that are used
more commonly
nowadays,
like Prozac
and the
like,
are not
near,
I wouldn't say
they're completely
non-addictive
because it can
be a bit
difficult coming
off and sometimes
they need to be
reduced down a bit
gradually and often
you do need to be
on them for a
significant length
of time.
But the thing to
remember about
medication is that
it's, even if it
does help you,
it's not the
whole answer.
If you think of it
a bit like being
stuck down a
slimy pit,
medication is a
bit like giving
you a leg up
so that you can
start to begin
to think more
clearly and
climb your way
out of the pit.
It's not just
as simple as
if I get the
right tablet
then I'll be
okay.
The tablet
helps you to
think clearly
and address some
of the other
issues.
So going to
psychiatrists then,
yes, they do
have a part to
play in more
severe or
complicated
depression and
going to a
psychiatrist can
be helpful.
So is that
it?
Is that all?
That's a question
that occurred to
me quite a lot
when I was
working as a
GP.
Is that all
we can do?
I, after I
finished studying
medicine at
university, I
went and worked
in the hospitals
for a few years
and then I did
some training in
general practice
and that was
right up on the
north coast.
So you're right
down here in the
south, aren't you?
And I was up on
the north coast
near the Giants
Causeway where
they have a
funny accent.
They almost
sound Scottish,
even funnier
accent than me.
In fact, one of
the first patients
that came in,
he sat down
in the chair
and he said,
a hey, a hack.
And I looked at
him and I said,
could you repeat
that please?
He said, a hey, a
hack.
And what he was
saying was, I
have a cough.
A hey, a hack.
So I had to
learn that sort
of Ulster Scots
language up there.
But when I
learned it and
when I got to
talk to people,
I realised that
yes, it could
help some people
with medication
and referring them
to hospital for
operations and
others through
medication for
their mind and
counselling.
But I could
see as well,
there were other
issues.
People had
spiritual problems
and that was
part of what
led me from
being a doctor
full-time to
being a doctor
part-time for a
little while and
then being a
full-time Christian
pastor as I
work out now.
And so just
before we come
to the question
time, just
explain a little
bit of where the
spiritual aspect of
things I think
comes into
something like
depression.
One of the
early church
fathers was a
man called
St. Augustine.
And he,
oh yeah, I was
going to show you
that first.
Because we're
not just mental
and physical, but
we're spiritual
beings and it
all interacts with
each other.
That's why the
spiritual is
important.
And here's what
Augustine said.
He said about
God, you have
made us for
yourself and we
are restless until
we find our rest
in you.
So you see what
he's saying to
God?
You've made us
for yourself and
so we're restless.
There's an inner
restlessness.
Even people who
have never
suffered from
depression,
there's still,
people have
described it as
like a God
shaped hole.
Something,
something missing.
And I'd say that
was part of what
led me out of
medicine.
To be able to
explain, I
couldn't sit in
the doctor's
surgery and talk
to people about
God all day.
We had like
seven minutes or
something to see
people.
So the waiting
room would soon
fill up.
And so
anyway, that was
part of what
led me to
leave medicine
at that time.
Even better than
Augustine, we can
go back to the
source itself,
back to the
Bible.
And Peter, who
wrote one of the
books, the New
Testament, St.
Peter, described
our existence as
being like an
empty way of
life.
And it's
something that
was passed
down from
generation to
generation.
And in
Peter's first
letter, he
said it like
this.
And we talked
about the way
we can be
delivered or
redeemed, as he
said, set free
from this empty
way of life.
He says, it
wasn't with
perishable things
such as silver
or gold that
you were
redeemed from
the empty
way of life,
but with the
precious blood
of Jesus.
So he's
saying it's
not through
getting lots of
stuff, silver
and gold.
We've tried
that in
Ireland, haven't
we?
And it's
nice to have
nice things.
We're a lot
better off than
we were 40,
50 years ago in
Ireland, maybe
even 30 years
ago in
Ireland, back
in the 80s.
But it
doesn't deal
with all the
inner problems.
And Peter's
saying in this
part of the
Bible, well,
there's something
more.
It's through
Jesus that
there can be
this freedom.
But here's
a fact.
Christians,
those who
have a
personal
relationship
with God
through Jesus,
also get
depressed.
In fact,
one of those
descriptions of
depression that
I read to you
earlier came
from a famous
Christian pastor.
So Christians
also get
depressed.
And you
might say,
well, surely
that should just
sort out all
your problems.
You get the
spiritual help.
But we have
to remember that
we're not just
spiritual beings,
but we are
mental,
psychological
aspect to us.
And we're
physical as
well.
So all these
things are
going on
together.
But the
good news is
that not
only can
we get
help from
doctors and
psychologists
and so on,
but there's
other help
there in
the Bible.
It's a
resource for
people with
different
conditions.
There's a
book in the
middle of the
Bible that's
especially
helpful,
the Psalms,
and those
were the
songs and
poems,
really,
about
experience
with God.
And there's
one in
particular that
I just want
to focus
in on and
just finish
off by
looking at
it.
Psalm 42
and 43.
We have
some little
booklets
that are,
there's some
literature
down the
back,
and one
of them is
this little
one called
Finding
Hope.
So that's
good.
A number
of verses
from the
Bible,
quite a few
from the
Psalms in
it,
something that
might be
helpful to
some of
you.
And one
of the
Psalms,
the Psalms
deal with
all different
kinds of
emotions in
their lives,
and it's
good to read
something like
that and
perhaps to
help have
it explained
to you.
Johnny
mentioned that
the church
here meets
on a Sunday,
and that's
something I
know that
everybody would
be welcome
to,
and part
of that
is explaining
what the
Bible is
saying and
showing how
it's relevant
to our
lives.
One of the
places down
in the
Bible that's
helpful for
depression is
Psalm 42
and 43.
These Psalms
kind of go
together,
and I just
want to point
out a couple
of things in
it to you.
It seems like
the man who
wrote this
Psalm was
depressed.
I know
it's a bit
small,
but I'll
just read
it out for
you.
Verse 3
there,
he says,
My tears
have been
my food
day and
night.
So he's
got tears,
he's crying,
he's sad.
He says,
My tears
have been
my food,
so he's
not eating
very much.
Your tears
are your
food,
you're not
going to
put on
much weight.
And he
says it's
day and
night,
so it's
affecting
his sleep.
So just
in that
little
phrase,
you've
got a
number of
the symptoms
of
depression,
I should
have said
earlier
that with
medication,
I did
say that
it didn't
help
everybody,
but it
can be
helpful
with
the,
especially
with the
symptoms like
sleeping and
eating,
what's called
the physical
or biological
symptoms of
depression.
But this
man,
writing,
as the
Psalms were
written about
a thousand
years ago,
people suffered
from depression
back then
too,
he didn't
have access
to medication,
so how
could he
be helped?
Well,
one of the
ways,
we've mentioned
about the
value of
talking to
others,
and do you
know who the
most influential
person is,
the most influential
human being is
in your life?
Well,
it's the person
who talks to
you the most,
and you know
who the person
who talks to
you the most
is,
it's you,
yourself.
That's right,
because we're
always talking
to ourselves.
From the moment
we get up in
the morning,
we're just
kind of
conversation
going on.
And just
like we
mentioned
earlier about
cognitive
behavioural
therapy,
it's good to
challenge the
negative thoughts,
and that's
actually what
this man does
in this psalm.
He talks to
himself,
look at
verse 5
down at the
bottom there,
why are you
downcast?
Oh my soul,
speaking to
himself,
speaking to
yourself isn't
a sign of
madness.
It's actually
very good,
you don't
have to do
it out
loud,
or you
can if
you want,
but why
so disturbed
within me?
He's asking
himself,
why are you
so down?
And then he
gives himself
some good
advice,
he says,
put your
hope in
God,
for I will
yet praise
him,
my saviour
and my
God.
So he's
someone who
knows God
personally,
and it's
possible to
come into
that personal
relationship,
and he's
telling himself,
put your
hope in
God.
So he's
speaking truth
to himself,
and it's
just an
example of
what we
need to
do,
not just
for depression,
but for
other issues
that can
trouble us
in life.
It's something
you can also
do for
others.
So how can
you help
others?
Well, you
can speak
truth to
them,
you kind
of have
to gain
their trust,
and you
can't just
go in,
jump in,
put yourself
together,
that's probably
not going to
help anybody,
but you
need to
draw alongside.
In the
New Testament
there's a
lovely phrase
about speaking
the truth
in love.
Truth and
love together
can be
such a
help.
Then,
as the
psalm goes
on,
he describes
his condition
in another
poetical way.
He says
there in
verse 7,
Deep calls
to deep
in the
roar of
your
waterfalls.
All your
waves and
breakers
have swept
over me.
So it's as
if he feels
he's out in
the sea of
life and
a little
boat and
all the
waves of
sorrow and
trouble and
they're just
coming in and
he feels like
he's going
down and
he's sinking
down.
But even
in that
expression
there's
hope.
Because notice
what he says
to God.
This is like
a song,
a prayer to
God.
He says
all your
waves and
breakers have
swept over
me.
So he
realizes even
in his
turmoil that
somehow God
is in
charge.
Somehow,
not that
God is
just causing
his sadness
and trouble
directly,
but somehow
behind it
God is
still in
control.
And that
can be a
real comfort
to people
who are
struggling
with any
suffering in
life.
One of the
stories of
suffering that
really has
helped and
challenged me
over the
years is
a young lady
called
Johnny.
At the
age of
17,
she
dived into
some water
that she
thought was
fine,
but there
were actually
rocks
submerged and
she was
paralyzed from
her neck
down at
age 17.
And she
had a real
struggle with
that to
begin with,
but then
came to
terms with
it and it
was her
relationship
with God
that helped
her.
She's had
cancer since
and a lot
of pain
along with
that,
but she's
still going
on.
She speaks
regularly about
suffering and
she has an
organization
helping people
with disabilities.
And this is
something that
she said about
her own
suffering.
She said,
today as I
look back,
I'm convinced
that the
whole ordeal
of my
paralysis was
inspired by
his love.
I wasn't a
rat in a
maze.
I wasn't the
brunt of
some cruel
divine joke.
God had
reasons behind
my suffering
and learning
some of them
has made all
the difference
in the world.
He has
reasons for
your suffering
too.
That might
sound very
strange,
might sound
like a million
miles away
from where you
are at the
moment,
but I just
put it out
there as
something that
has given
comfort to
Johnny and
to others
who have
been in
deep suffering
as well,
and something
that is based
on what we
looked at in
that psalm,
and coming to
realize somehow,
even though we
can't understand
how we could
get through
this time,
that coming to
a realization
that overall
there's a
sovereign God,
there's a God
who can help,
a God who's
in control,
if that can help
to get us
through.
But often
it's a long
haul.
I like to
do long
distance running,
and one of
the reasons
why I like to
do that is
because it
reminds me
just about
life,
and how
often you
just have to
keep going.
It's not the
first mile that's
important in
running a
marathon,
it's keeping
going every
mile.
And that's a
bit like the
man in this,
because he
comes back and
he says exactly
the same
thing to
himself in
verse 11,
and then on
into Psalm
43,
he says the
same thing,
why are you
downcast,
oh my
soul?
Why are you
so disturbed
within me?
Put your
hope in God.
So there's a
need often just
to keep going,
and if you
came tonight
looking for a
quick fix to
just explode you
out of
depression,
I'm sorry,
it often is a
long haul,
it's baby
steps,
it's keeping
going,
but the
important thing to
remember is that
there is hope,
that's why he's
saying put your
hope in God,
there is hope,
but often it's a
long battle,
it's a keeping
going.
One final thing
then from this
Psalm is what
we have here in
43,
they all originally
seem to be part
of one song,
with the same
refrain,
because you've
got the quiet
and cast on my
soul at the end
of this,
but he seems to
get a lot more
positive here,
in verse 3,
send forth your
light and your
truth,
let them guide
me,
let them bring
me to your
holy mountain,
to the place
for you dwell,
then I will go
to the altar
of God,
to God my
joy and my
delight.
He doesn't
sound so
depressed now,
so what is it
that's made the
difference?
Well he talks
about going to
the altar
of God,
in the Old
Testament days
the altar was
about sacrificing
animals in the
temple,
but when you
come through to
the New
Testament part
of the Bible,
John the
Baptist said,
behold the
Lamb of God,
speaking about
Jesus,
and so it's
the altar of
the cross,
the sacrifice
of the cross,
and you might
think,
well how in
our day can,
how can what
happened on the
cross help?
Well,
think of it like
this,
when you feel
really bad,
you might think,
nobody understands
me,
nobody understands
what I'm going
through,
and maybe you've
been thinking
tonight,
well it's okay
for him,
you know,
talking about
that,
but he doesn't
really understand
what I've been
through,
and you'd be
right,
I don't really
understand,
for you are,
but I know
somebody who
does,
and I really
believe this,
that Jesus
understands,
because he went
through the
darkness of the
cross,
one of the
worst things
about depression
is the
loneliness,
the fear,
and the
feeling of
rejection,
feeling rejected
is a painful
thing,
you know,
if I said to
you,
at the tea
and coffee
time tonight,
I came up
and I said,
I never want
to see you
again,
you'd think,
well,
it's a bit
strange,
maybe because
he's from
Cabin,
that he
speaks like
that,
but you
probably would
get over it,
you'd just
dismiss it,
but if your
nearest and
dearest said
that to you,
and it really
meant that I
never want to
see you again,
it would be
awful,
devastating,
well,
that's a
little kind
of window
into what
Jesus was
experiencing on
the cross,
do you remember
how he called
out,
my God,
why have
you forsaken
me?
He was
feeling the
weight of
rejection from
his father
because he
was being
punished for
the sins
of people
like me
and you,
so that
rejection,
Jesus was
feeling that
very much
on the cross,
so he
understands,
so that's
good news,
to know that
there's someone
who really
does understand
you,
who really
does know
what you're
going through,
but even
better than
that,
because he
went through
that,
he's able
to deliver
you from
serious
suffering,
sometimes people
say when
they're feeling
really bad,
you know,
I'm going
through hell,
well,
you probably
feel like
that,
but it's
not actually
hell,
what Jesus
experienced on
the cross
was hell
because he
was punished,
he went
through hell
so that
everybody who
trusts in
him won't
have to go
to hell,
you can put
it like this,
he went
through hell
so that
you do
not have
to go
to hell,
to know
that,
and that's
something that
in times in
my life when
I've been
suffering,
when I
realised that
somebody who
went through
that for
me,
that's how
much he
loves me,
and that
can help
you to
cope in
difficult
times.
Just finish
with another
just saying
from Jesus,
an invitation
that he gave
when he
said,
come to
me,
all you
who are
weary
and burdened,
and I
will give
you rest.
So,
there's that
invitation,
there can be
an inner,
even if we're
not suffering
from depression,
there's often
an inner
restlessness,
and sometimes
we're trying
to pay it
off ourselves,
we're trying
to pay for
our own
sins,
or by being
really good,
we hope to
earn God's
favour.
Well,
here's the
invitation,
just to leave
that to one
side,
and to
just rest
in Jesus
and what
he's done
for us.
So,
that's all
I'm going
to say
for now,
but if
there are
questions,
please go
ahead and
ask.
We've got a
few minutes,
we were late
starting,
just like we
usually are in
cabin,
so we'll
finish a little
bit later too,
but that's
okay.
so we've
got a few
minutes then
for questions
if you want
to ask now,
or as
Johnny said,
if you want
to come and
chat after,
that's fine too.
Anybody want
to ask
something?
Go ahead.
Can I start
it off?
If it's not
too difficult,
get worried now.
So someone
who may be
your own
spouse,
or your
partner,
or somebody
who you live
with a friend,
if they're
somebody who's
struggling,
what can I
do,
what can I
do to help
him out?
So,
first thing,
listening,
I think,
to listen,
not presume
that you know
what the other
person's going
through,
even though
you're living
under the
same roof,
and maybe
you're going
through the
financial trouble,
or the
bereavement,
or whatever
that they've
gone through,
that they're
going through
as well,
don't presume
that they're
experiencing it
just the same
as you are.
We're all
different,
we're all
unique,
so listen,
listen to
them.
If there's
that significant
level of
depression,
you've encouraged
them,
go to your
doctor.
I mentioned
earlier about
talking,
being open
about self-harm,
do you have
thoughts of
harming yourself?
And certainly
if someone says
that to you,
then you could
ask a bit more,
have you actually
made plans to
do it?
Seems like a
very serious
question,
but it's worth
asking.
And then
they respond
to that
with the fact
that they have
thought of
in their life
that they do
have plans,
then say to
them,
well,
we're going to
make an
appointment for
you to see
the doctor
and have a
chat with
the doctor.
And then,
in an ongoing
basis,
you'll be a
help to
that person,
you'll be able
to be an
encouragement
and it can
be a struggle
at times,
but it's
something that
is really worth
sticking with
somebody through.
Is that
kind of thing?
Feel free to
come back to me
and the answers,
you know,
as I'm saying,
as I said earlier,
I don't have all
the answers,
so if you want
the chip in,
feel free to
do that.
I've spoken to
quite an amount
of people over
25 years,
and because
I'm an addiction
myself,
and I've
always got a
problem that I
said,
dialogue with
words.
That what
was words?
Dialogue.
Yeah.
As you mentioned
about listening,
it's one of our
great of a
fast,
that's right.
Because you
learn to listen
and listen to
learn.
But I always
have faith in
God from the
day I come
into the world
right up to
now,
because he's
helped me
so many times.
I remember
talking to
someone there
and I didn't
know whether
he would
seem funny
or contrary
or what
he said to
me,
that God
is there
in your
life,
I was
the only
justice
fair
wheel.
And my
answer was
like he
put me
on.
And I
pray a lot.
I don't pray
every minute
into day.
But I pray
when the time
comes to
pray.
I pray
at night.
Before I
go to
feet.
I get
comfort from
that too.
I have
an
ahable
friend
who was
in the
kitchen
too.
I was a
chronic
alcoholic.
I go to
meetings and I
haven't drank
any
stuff before.
I didn't
find God
there.
God was
with me
on it.
And for
that I'm
very grateful.
In attitude,
gratitude.
I couldn't
talk to you
about depression.
I don't know
nothing about it.
Even though I
speak to a lot
of people
that have
depression,
but what I
think is about
getting them
to speak.
and I
think that's
the main
key to
the lock.
Good.
Yeah.
It was a
lovely
relationship.
Thank you.
And thanks
very much
for that
contribution.
And it's
something that
I've learned
even just in
the past
few years,
the benefit
of openness.
And I
have benefited
from talking
to people
that have
been in
AA and
going along
to a
meeting myself
and just
seeing the
openness
that is there.
And I
think that
folks in
churches can
learn from
that as
well.
They need
to be open
and honest
about how
we're feeling
and being
able to talk
to others
and to talk
to God.
Thanks for
that.
Anyone else?
Sometimes
people say
they're depressed
because they
feel that
there's no
reason to
be depressed
because their
life doesn't
have seen
them.
Like they
should be
depressed.
Yes.
And sometimes
they can't
articulate
quite quite
their
feelings.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
They might have
almost been
embarrassed
to say
that they're
depressed
because
everything's
going well
in life.
It can be
like that
that there
aren't
those
loss
events.
Yeah.
So
I think
in those
circumstances
it's good
to encourage
people just
to be
honest
and
just to
say how
they are
feeling.
Actively.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Not just listening, but actively listening.
I don't think us men are so good at that usually.
We claim to listen when we're looking at something else.
That's a good point.
Good.
Yes?
You said the third question is, you know, what is the answer?
Yes.
You said the third people who have medication, they can get worse.
Yeah.
So how are they helped?
Yeah.
Well, that's why it's good that medication isn't the only line that's helping.
So if somebody's on medication, sometimes a change of medication can help after a reasonable
trial.
And if you're prescribed medication for depression, don't expect it'll work just like that.
It often takes a few days to notice any improvement, even if it is going to help you.
And it is something that you often need to be on for a good while.
But say after a reasonable length of time, number of weeks, you're getting worse.
Well, the doctor might try a different antidepressant.
And if still not helping or making you worse, then all medication then might be withdrawn and
just go ahead with like the counselling or the cognitive behavioural therapy or some of the spiritual help.
And often it's not a case of either or.
I would say everyone needs talking, listening.
Everyone needs very good help.
Medication will help some.
I didn't mention the ECT treatment, the shock treatment that's still used by doctors in
very severe cases of depression.
You know, where people are put on their short anesthetic and give them an electric shock.
It might seem very severe, but I've seen it being really useful in some people.
I have a good friend of mine who was seriously depressed after her husband died.
And she responded.
So there's that.
Anyone else have a question?
You mentioned guilt.
Yeah.
That can be real or imagined.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
So, as I said, it's right to feel guilty when you've done something wrong.
And so all of us have done wrong things.
So we all have some issue with guilt.
And the good thing is that we have done something wrong.
And the good news is that there is a real answer to that.
And I would say in the Bible, in what Jesus has done, in atoning for sin, so that we can
know real forgiveness.
So that's the answer to real guilt.
It's just through forgiveness.
And if you've done something against somebody else, then you need to seek their forgiveness
as well.
And that can really help when relationships are restored.
But in cases of severe depression and even moderate and sometimes mild depression, the guilt
is exaggerated.
And so even if a person is offered spiritual help and they're benefiting that, that's somewhat
from that, they still, when their depression starts to get better, they often feel less guilty
or more, if you like, normal guilt, real guilt.
So there's different ways of responding to the guilt.
It can just be normal because if you do something wrong, you should feel guilty.
Or it can be a sign, if it's more exaggerated than usual, of part of depression.
Does that make sense?
Anybody else?
Yes?
If you have a friend or you know somebody who has depression, and they use some examples
of a very bubbly character, from your experience, should they modify their behaviour for example, to make somebody who's depressed worse if they're around people who are so bubbly?
And should that bubbly person kind of, you know, tone it down a bit, knowing that it is a person that works by their behaviour?
Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I don't know. I guess it might depend on the individual, just what the mix of personalities was.
But I know that we ought to seek to be sensitive to the person who's depressed.
I suppose if you're bouncing around like Tigger and somebody else is like Eeyore, it's not going to be the right thing that you need.
Anybody else have any experience in that?
Maybe you've been annoyed by really bubbly people that you want to get it all out there now.
Yeah, sorry, I don't know about that answer to that.
I'm just going to interrupt here and just say thanks to everybody for coming.
Thanks very much Ivan, for saying what you've said tonight and for sharing.
We don't want it to be the end of the talk or discussion, so please feel free, over team coffee, if you'd like that, to talk to Ivan, ask your questions,
talk to people who are here.
But thank you for coming.
On your way out, there is some literature just on the side there.
If any of it is helpful to you, please feel free to take it.
It is free and there's no charge at all.
So team coffee will be served. Ivan, thanks very much.
Thanks, as Sonny said, I'll be around tonight.
And as I mentioned earlier, I know that the church meets here on a Sunday and everybody would be welcome to that.
That's a way of kind of following on in the conversation that we've had this evening.
So I'll leave that with you.
Thanks for your attention.
It's great to speak to people who aren't asleep and who are interested.
I'm not saying people are asleep on Sunday in Cabin in church.
They're not usually, but you're very withered in Cork, I have to say.
So it's good to be here.
Thank you.