WEBVTT

00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:05.179
 Well, let us start up. Why don't we start with prayer.

00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.839
 Father God, thank you for this day.

00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:16.039
 Thank you for this opportunity that we can gather together and think about you.

00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:19.800
 I ask, Lord, that this class would be edifying to the body,

00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.960
 that we would glorify you with our interactions,

00:00:24.580 --> 00:00:29.219
 and that we would be able to leave today with a better understanding of our fellow Christians.

00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.199
 In Jesus' name, amen.

00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:38.240
 Okay, so, as, you know, it's tradition now.

00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:39.740
 Let's do preamble.

00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:47.400
 So, the preamble today is basically can be summed up as, I'm inadequate.

00:00:47.980 --> 00:00:53.219
 So, this is a very complicated discussion,

00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.879
 and as I was preparing for today's class,

00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:02.160
 I realized that I had to truncate a whole bunch of things

00:01:02.160 --> 00:01:04.799
 to fit everything in that I wanted to fit in.

00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:08.939
 And so, I guess what I want to say is that

00:01:08.939 --> 00:01:14.359
 if a specific point that I'm making or argument that I'm making

00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:19.000
 doesn't sound particularly persuasive in the way that I have articulated it,

00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:25.219
 just know that there is an entire book on that argument that you can read

00:01:25.219 --> 00:01:30.379
 that will most likely make more sense than the way I'm putting it together.

00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:32.200
 Although, who knows? I mean, I don't know.

00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:37.900
 Okay, so with that being said, let's start our final class today,

00:01:37.900 --> 00:01:44.200
 which is going to actually start touching on what I've been hinting at in the subtitle,

00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.939
 which is Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution.

00:01:47.299 --> 00:01:50.820
 The last two classes, we've been dealing with sort of the historical background.

00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.379
 What do I mean when I say Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution?

00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.320
 What kind of arguments are they making?

00:01:57.240 --> 00:02:03.100
 Last class, we talked about how different biblical interpretations of Genesis

00:02:03.100 --> 00:02:07.900
 can either leave room for or not leave room for evolutionary mechanisms,

00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:09.860
 among many other things.

00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:14.540
 And now we're going to deal with the positions themselves.

00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:25.160
 But before we do that, I'd like to start with just a very simple crash course

00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:26.400
 in scientific reasoning.

00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:35.260
 Okay, so just as an explainer of how there can be differences of opinion

00:02:35.260 --> 00:02:37.160
 when it comes to scientific information,

00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:39.879
 and what does that even mean, right?

00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.599
 And a question that was asked in the first class,

00:02:44.379 --> 00:02:46.199
 or was it the second class?

00:02:46.359 --> 00:02:47.539
 You know, they all rub together now.

00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:52.879
 There was the question of, you know,

00:02:53.500 --> 00:02:56.759
 how can we have different interpretations of science, essentially?

00:02:58.219 --> 00:03:02.539
 And I want to explain a little bit about how that is.

00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:07.679
 So how is science actually done, right?

00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:09.599
 That is the question.

00:03:09.739 --> 00:03:10.780
 Science is very fruitful.

00:03:11.939 --> 00:03:16.539
 But it's not that science is something that does not require interpretation

00:03:16.539 --> 00:03:20.399
 or other forms of communication.

00:03:21.519 --> 00:03:27.120
 So as Christians, we believe in what is called the correspondence view of truth, right?

00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:33.000
 Which means that for something to be true, it has to correspond to reality, right?

00:03:33.580 --> 00:03:37.680
 So that is actually pretty straightforward.

00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.420
 But I'm just going to posit that because all of the scientific reasoning

00:03:41.420 --> 00:03:43.400
 that we are going to be talking about today,

00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.120
 and a lot of the arguments flowing from that,

00:03:46.480 --> 00:03:48.159
 are assuming this view of truth.

00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:50.620
 That there is something real.

00:03:50.920 --> 00:03:52.340
 There is something called reality.

00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:55.800
 reality that when we understand it,

00:03:56.500 --> 00:03:59.780
 we can gain knowledge that is true, right?

00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.439
 And so in science, what we're trying to do

00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:07.400
 is actually get a little piece of this reality,

00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:09.080
 get a glimpse of it,

00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.500
 using repetition, instrumentation,

00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:14.140
 eliminating variables,

00:04:14.259 --> 00:04:16.560
 among a whole host of other things, right?

00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.660
 So if I was going to try to diagram it,

00:04:20.019 --> 00:04:21.740
 it would look something like this.

00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:24.439
 We have this thing called reality, right?

00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.400
 It's real, you know, by definition.

00:04:28.840 --> 00:04:30.220
 Here's this thing called reality.

00:04:30.400 --> 00:04:32.160
 And in science, what we're trying to do

00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.079
 is we're trying to observe

00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.079
 some facet of this reality

00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:39.180
 using instruments, often.

00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:40.900
 You know, I mean, back in the day,

00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:42.900
 they would just use their eyeballs.

00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:45.120
 But I guess if you could, you know,

00:04:45.460 --> 00:04:47.199
 in a certain sort of reductive way,

00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:48.939
 call your eyeballs instruments, right?

00:04:49.779 --> 00:04:52.120
 But yeah, we're going to be observing reality,

00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:53.500
 some facet of reality.

00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:55.579
 Based on this observation,

00:04:56.019 --> 00:04:59.480
 this is going to give us some sort of data output, right?

00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.660
 And this is what kind of output you get

00:05:01.660 --> 00:05:02.839
 is going to be dependent

00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:04.899
 what kind of instrument you're using

00:05:04.899 --> 00:05:08.040
 and the way that you're trying to observe, right?

00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:11.480
 Because, believe it or not,

00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:13.600
 the observation itself

00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.379
 is not necessarily the data output,

00:05:16.900 --> 00:05:21.180
 although observation is a form of data, right?

00:05:22.060 --> 00:05:23.600
 But oftentimes,

00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:26.379
 the instrument is observing something

00:05:26.379 --> 00:05:28.700
 and it tells us something

00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:31.240
 about what it's observing, right?

00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:34.240
 Finally, on top of this data output,

00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:37.819
 we're going to be interpreting the output, right?

00:05:38.019 --> 00:05:39.699
 So we get this number

00:05:39.699 --> 00:05:41.120
 or this picture

00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.699
 or this, you know,

00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:46.160
 solution

00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.400
 or pellet,

00:05:48.579 --> 00:05:49.439
 whatever it is.

00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:51.300
 We get some sort of output

00:05:51.300 --> 00:05:54.720
 and on top of this output,

00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:56.019
 we are going to be

00:05:56.019 --> 00:05:57.360
 interpreting the data

00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:59.800
 to make sense

00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:01.040
 in what we already know

00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:02.420
 about the world,

00:06:02.980 --> 00:06:05.180
 to posit new facets

00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:06.660
 of how the world is working

00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:08.139
 based on the output you've gotten.

00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:10.180
 And on top of this interpretation,

00:06:10.580 --> 00:06:13.220
 we're now going to be building a worldview, right?

00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:15.800
 So this is the layer,

00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:19.660
 the layers of scientific reasoning, okay?

00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:21.560
 And so

00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.040
 in most scientific circles,

00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:27.160
 this is sort of seen as a,

00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.980
 unbreakable chain, right?

00:06:30.460 --> 00:06:31.340
 The reality

00:06:31.340 --> 00:06:35.879
 necessarily leads to,

00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:37.080
 leads to the observation,

00:06:37.259 --> 00:06:39.220
 which necessarily leads to this data output,

00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:40.139
 which necessarily

00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:42.199
 is interpreted correctly this way,

00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:43.819
 which necessarily means

00:06:43.819 --> 00:06:45.699
 in a big worldview sense,

00:06:46.780 --> 00:06:47.800
 X, right?

00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:49.300
 So,

00:06:49.819 --> 00:06:51.240
 but is that necessarily true?

00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:51.819
 Do we have to,

00:06:51.960 --> 00:06:53.420
 is it an unbreakable chain?

00:06:53.860 --> 00:06:54.780
 And, you know,

00:06:54.840 --> 00:06:55.319
 people who,

00:06:55.540 --> 00:06:56.520
 so I guess I should say

00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:59.939
 maybe the popular view of science

00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:01.439
 is that this is an unbreakable chain,

00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:02.039
 right?

00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:04.439
 People who are actually doing science

00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:05.299
 know that,

00:07:05.299 --> 00:07:07.060
 you know,

00:07:07.099 --> 00:07:08.099
 these chains are often

00:07:08.099 --> 00:07:09.180
 very, very weak.

00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:10.819
 And so,

00:07:11.099 --> 00:07:11.579
 oftentimes,

00:07:11.779 --> 00:07:13.000
 a lot of what we're trying to do

00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:13.959
 is

00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.019
 determine how,

00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:16.219
 you know,

00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:17.699
 how can we reliably say

00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:19.279
 that this X equals this,

00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:19.859
 right?

00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:21.020
 So,

00:07:21.020 --> 00:07:23.319
 what's the Christian's responsibility

00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:24.460
 in all of this,

00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:25.240
 right?

00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:25.800
 So,

00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:27.600
 we've talked over the last few classes

00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:28.639
 about the fact that

00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:30.780
 Scripture being our highest authority,

00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:33.879
 we were committed to the claims of Scripture,

00:07:34.020 --> 00:07:35.280
 but also Scripture testifies

00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:36.840
 to the reliability

00:07:36.840 --> 00:07:38.699
 of what we can learn from nature,

00:07:39.100 --> 00:07:39.660
 right?

00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:42.120
 And because we affirm

00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:44.120
 Scripture,

00:07:44.740 --> 00:07:44.840
 we,

00:07:45.320 --> 00:07:46.240
 in some sense,

00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:47.300
 Christians are responsible

00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:50.180
 for the realities of nature.

00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:50.760
 So,

00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:52.140
 at a very base level,

00:07:52.320 --> 00:07:53.220
 Christians are responsible

00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:54.500
 to the truth of this,

00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:55.700
 right?

00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:57.680
 This thing here,

00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:58.160
 reality,

00:07:58.280 --> 00:07:58.720
 is real,

00:07:58.980 --> 00:07:59.260
 right?

00:07:59.320 --> 00:08:00.820
 And Christians have to affirm that

00:08:00.820 --> 00:08:01.740
 at the very least,

00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:02.260
 right?

00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:04.660
 Secondly,

00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:05.520
 I would say,

00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:06.700
 to a lesser extent,

00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:08.680
 Christians are,

00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:09.939
 have to be,

00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:12.379
 by way of being intellectually honest,

00:08:12.479 --> 00:08:13.659
 we have to at least

00:08:13.659 --> 00:08:14.839
 affirm

00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:16.479
 the observations

00:08:16.479 --> 00:08:17.439
 with the instruments

00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:18.259
 and the data

00:08:18.259 --> 00:08:19.860
 that the instruments put out,

00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:20.399
 right?

00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:21.019
 Now,

00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:21.980
 the reason I say

00:08:21.980 --> 00:08:22.699
 to a lesser extent

00:08:22.699 --> 00:08:23.199
 is because

00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:24.439
 these observations

00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:25.099
 with instruments

00:08:25.099 --> 00:08:27.480
 are not the reality themselves.

00:08:27.860 --> 00:08:28.839
 These are ways

00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:29.919
 of getting at the reality

00:08:29.919 --> 00:08:31.779
 and scientists know

00:08:31.779 --> 00:08:32.720
 depending on the instrument

00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:33.399
 you use,

00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.259
 the reality may look different.

00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:36.659
 Depending on

00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.019
 the way that you use

00:08:38.019 --> 00:08:38.519
 the instrument,

00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:39.279
 the data output

00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:39.879
 might be different,

00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:40.639
 right?

00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:41.679
 And so,

00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:43.240
 these are

00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.579
 extrapolations

00:08:45.579 --> 00:08:46.339
 from the reality,

00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:46.819
 but they're not

00:08:46.819 --> 00:08:47.659
 the reality itself.

00:08:47.819 --> 00:08:47.939
 So,

00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:48.240
 I think,

00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:49.899
 at the very least,

00:08:50.019 --> 00:08:50.959
 Christians need

00:08:50.959 --> 00:08:51.719
 to be able to say,

00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:52.019
 yes,

00:08:52.079 --> 00:08:53.199
 there is something real

00:08:53.199 --> 00:08:53.899
 that scientists

00:08:53.899 --> 00:08:55.000
 are observing

00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:56.399
 or trying to observe

00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:57.679
 that I,

00:08:57.779 --> 00:08:58.179
 as a Christian,

00:08:58.259 --> 00:08:58.579
 must say,

00:08:58.639 --> 00:08:59.159
 that is true.

00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:00.339
 Okay?

00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:02.639
 If we think about

00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:03.879
 our last class,

00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:05.399
 this is where

00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:06.179
 the differences

00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:07.179
 between the philosophical

00:09:07.179 --> 00:09:07.980
 views about

00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:09.000
 balancing general

00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:09.959
 and special revelation

00:09:09.959 --> 00:09:10.500
 comes in

00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:11.720
 because maybe

00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:12.340
 you're thinking

00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:14.319
 about the first group

00:09:14.319 --> 00:09:14.919
 that I talked about

00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:15.480
 which would be

00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:16.299
 the science skeptics

00:09:16.299 --> 00:09:17.120
 and the science skeptics

00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:17.419
 would say,

00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:18.019
 really,

00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:20.519
 there is no way

00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:21.459
 to get from reality

00:09:21.459 --> 00:09:22.860
 to observations

00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:23.459
 with instruments,

00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:24.059
 right?

00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:24.459
 I mean,

00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:24.720
 like,

00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:26.220
 they get stuff right

00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:26.659
 sometimes,

00:09:26.659 --> 00:09:27.279
 but there really

00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:28.579
 isn't any consistent

00:09:28.579 --> 00:09:29.600
 way to get at this,

00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:30.120
 right?

00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:31.120
 But I think

00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.320
 most Christians

00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:34.200
 would consider

00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:35.060
 it their responsibility

00:09:35.060 --> 00:09:36.299
 to affirm

00:09:36.299 --> 00:09:36.879
 that there is

00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:37.299
 a reality

00:09:37.299 --> 00:09:37.980
 that is being

00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:38.779
 observed with

00:09:38.779 --> 00:09:39.179
 instruments

00:09:39.179 --> 00:09:40.080
 and it is putting

00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.840
 out some sort

00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:41.820
 of information,

00:09:42.379 --> 00:09:42.639
 okay?

00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:44.720
 So,

00:09:45.899 --> 00:09:46.580
 but,

00:09:46.659 --> 00:09:46.879
 what about

00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:47.580
 these next levels?

00:09:48.560 --> 00:09:49.220
 The interpretation

00:09:49.220 --> 00:09:49.879
 of output

00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:50.659
 and the worldview

00:09:50.659 --> 00:09:51.360
 based on Pata.

00:09:51.460 --> 00:09:51.600
 Now,

00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:52.720
 everybody,

00:09:52.940 --> 00:09:53.379
 all Christians

00:09:53.379 --> 00:09:54.180
 of all stripes,

00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:55.299
 right,

00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:56.159
 whether they be

00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:56.899
 intelligent design

00:09:56.899 --> 00:09:57.399
 advocates,

00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.039
 theistic evolutionists,

00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:00.059
 creationists,

00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:02.399
 they are all

00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:03.139
 going to say

00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:05.399
 the worldview,

00:10:05.620 --> 00:10:06.419
 the interpretation

00:10:06.419 --> 00:10:06.980
 to worldview

00:10:06.980 --> 00:10:07.559
 connection

00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:08.759
 is not,

00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.240
 is not something

00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:12.059
 that we as Christians

00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:12.679
 need to affirm

00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:13.399
 and oftentimes

00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:14.899
 we as Christians

00:10:14.899 --> 00:10:16.179
 need to fight

00:10:16.179 --> 00:10:17.019
 against that

00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:17.679
 interpretation,

00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:18.139
 right?

00:10:18.319 --> 00:10:19.219
 Even a theistic

00:10:19.219 --> 00:10:20.199
 evolutionist

00:10:20.199 --> 00:10:20.919
 would be arguing

00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.139
 that the scientific

00:10:23.139 --> 00:10:23.980
 materialism

00:10:23.980 --> 00:10:25.799
 that often results

00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:27.279
 from the interpretations

00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:28.240
 of the data

00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:29.580
 is not warranted.

00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:30.700
 It's a philosophical,

00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:32.460
 metaphysical argument

00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:33.440
 that is not,

00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:35.060
 that is maybe

00:10:35.060 --> 00:10:37.519
 is understandable

00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:38.639
 in light of the data

00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.320
 but is not required,

00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:41.480
 right?

00:10:41.560 --> 00:10:41.799
 And so,

00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:42.680
 we would all argue,

00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:43.220
 boom,

00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:44.560
 this connection

00:10:44.560 --> 00:10:45.940
 we as Christians

00:10:45.940 --> 00:10:49.899
 can argue against

00:10:49.899 --> 00:10:50.860
 and often should

00:10:50.860 --> 00:10:52.019
 be arguing against

00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:52.879
 of all stripes,

00:10:53.019 --> 00:10:53.259
 right?

00:10:53.259 --> 00:10:54.539
 obviously,

00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:55.439
 as Christians

00:10:55.439 --> 00:10:56.460
 we have to at least

00:10:56.460 --> 00:10:57.919
 argue against

00:10:57.919 --> 00:10:58.919
 scientific materialism,

00:10:59.120 --> 00:10:59.319
 right?

00:10:59.360 --> 00:10:59.679
 Otherwise,

00:11:00.379 --> 00:11:00.620
 you know,

00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:01.360
 that assumes

00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:02.159
 there is no God,

00:11:02.299 --> 00:11:02.460
 right?

00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:02.939
 And as Christians

00:11:02.939 --> 00:11:03.559
 that, you know,

00:11:03.819 --> 00:11:04.460
 puts us in a weird

00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:04.819
 position.

00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:05.779
 So,

00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:08.319
 now secondly,

00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:09.159
 now this is where

00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:09.740
 a lot of the

00:11:09.740 --> 00:11:10.720
 disagreements come in

00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:11.620
 between Christians.

00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:15.120
 As I said before,

00:11:15.259 --> 00:11:16.399
 most people would argue

00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.659
 that the data output

00:11:17.659 --> 00:11:18.819
 that comes out

00:11:18.819 --> 00:11:19.819
 from our observations

00:11:19.819 --> 00:11:20.419
 is something that

00:11:20.419 --> 00:11:21.120
 we need to affirm

00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.440
 is real in some sense,

00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:22.860
 right?

00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:23.799
 With qualifications,

00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:24.799
 right?

00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:25.980
 And scientists know

00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:26.860
 all the qualifications,

00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:27.919
 right?

00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:28.940
 Everybody,

00:11:29.539 --> 00:11:29.919
 I mean,

00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:30.539
 I don't know

00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:31.940
 about the other

00:11:31.940 --> 00:11:32.700
 scientists in the room,

00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:34.980
 but I do get annoyed

00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:37.340
 when you read

00:11:37.340 --> 00:11:39.039
 a scientific publication

00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:40.179
 and then you read

00:11:40.179 --> 00:11:41.639
 the news articles

00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:42.860
 from the scientific

00:11:42.860 --> 00:11:43.560
 publication,

00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:44.100
 right?

00:11:44.500 --> 00:11:45.240
 We've all had

00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:45.940
 this experience

00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:46.960
 in the scientific

00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:47.600
 community where you're

00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:47.820
 like,

00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:49.279
 oh man,

00:11:49.560 --> 00:11:51.100
 they did not get it.

00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:51.679
 You know,

00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:52.799
 they're not making

00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.560
 the kinds of

00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:55.159
 qualifications

00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:55.759
 that are necessary

00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:56.799
 to get at the

00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:57.560
 accuracy of what's

00:11:57.560 --> 00:11:58.019
 going on.

00:11:58.379 --> 00:11:58.639
 Yeah,

00:11:58.879 --> 00:11:59.879
 you could understand

00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:00.500
 the data that they

00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:01.740
 put out in the way

00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:02.480
 that you're describing,

00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:04.000
 but nobody would

00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:04.700
 actually argue that

00:12:04.700 --> 00:12:05.100
 that's actually

00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:05.580
 what's going on.

00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:06.659
 Okay?

00:12:07.179 --> 00:12:07.539
 So,

00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:09.220
 we're all familiar

00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:09.639
 with that,

00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:11.179
 but qualifications

00:12:11.179 --> 00:12:12.039
 in mind,

00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:14.899
 there are basically

00:12:14.899 --> 00:12:16.019
 two different groups

00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:17.740
 understanding

00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:20.159
 how are we going

00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:20.539
 to argue

00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:21.039
 against this

00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:21.500
 interpretation

00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:22.139
 of output.

00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:23.019
 There are Christians

00:12:23.019 --> 00:12:23.539
 who say,

00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:24.940
 this interpretation

00:12:24.940 --> 00:12:25.360
 of output

00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:26.860
 is very reliable,

00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:28.100
 right?

00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:29.360
 And then there

00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:29.759
 are Christians

00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:30.159
 who say,

00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:31.860
 I am not required

00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:33.560
 to accept this

00:12:33.560 --> 00:12:34.360
 and I'm going

00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:34.879
 to argue

00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:36.639
 my own case

00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:37.259
 against it

00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:38.560
 based on the data,

00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:38.980
 right?

00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:39.899
 So,

00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.320
 and this actually

00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:43.019
 comes down

00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:44.259
 to

00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:47.659
 the second

00:12:47.659 --> 00:12:48.580
 tension in creation

00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:49.399
 as I've been

00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:50.000
 talking about.

00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:50.899
 But I guess I just

00:12:50.899 --> 00:12:51.680
 want to get across

00:12:51.680 --> 00:12:53.159
 in this section

00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:54.340
 here that

00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:56.460
 it's not just

00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:57.500
 Christians who

00:12:57.500 --> 00:12:58.039
 need to be

00:12:58.039 --> 00:12:59.420
 skeptical about

00:12:59.420 --> 00:13:00.320
 this chain of

00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:00.659
 reasoning,

00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:01.519
 right?

00:13:02.779 --> 00:13:03.560
 And it's not just

00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:04.240
 Christians who are

00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:04.620
 skeptical.

00:13:05.379 --> 00:13:06.279
 Scientists are

00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:07.399
 often very

00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:08.820
 critical of

00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:09.540
 other scientists'

00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:10.480
 interpretation of

00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:10.740
 data,

00:13:11.180 --> 00:13:11.860
 especially if

00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:12.620
 your interpretation

00:13:12.620 --> 00:13:13.400
 of your own

00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:14.260
 data differs

00:13:14.260 --> 00:13:14.640
 with their

00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:15.140
 interpretation,

00:13:15.520 --> 00:13:15.740
 right?

00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:16.860
 That's when the

00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:17.600
 gloves come off

00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.580
 and the fighting

00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:19.320
 really begins

00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:20.540
 metaphorically.

00:13:22.020 --> 00:13:22.540
 So,

00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:22.940
 you know,

00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:23.820
 hopefully metaphorically.

00:13:25.640 --> 00:13:26.160
 So,

00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:26.960
 yeah,

00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:27.980
 we all argue

00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:28.340
 about the

00:13:28.340 --> 00:13:28.960
 interpretation of

00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:29.240
 the data.

00:13:29.400 --> 00:13:30.160
 The question is

00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:31.080
 at what point

00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.300
 should Christians

00:13:33.300 --> 00:13:34.960
 affirm so-called

00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:36.400
 consensus in

00:13:36.400 --> 00:13:37.180
 the interpretation

00:13:37.180 --> 00:13:38.660
 of the data?

00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:40.000
 versus not,

00:13:40.460 --> 00:13:40.740
 right?

00:13:41.800 --> 00:13:42.280
 So,

00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:43.580
 what's this

00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:44.100
 second tension

00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:44.840
 in creationism

00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:45.280
 all about?

00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:46.220
 Okay?

00:13:46.900 --> 00:13:47.379
 So,

00:13:47.520 --> 00:13:48.120
 the second tension

00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:48.720
 in creationism

00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:48.960
 I'm going to

00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.420
 talk about

00:13:49.420 --> 00:13:50.060
 has to do

00:13:50.060 --> 00:13:50.980
 with God's

00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:51.500
 activity,

00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:52.820
 right?

00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:53.900
 What is God's

00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:54.200
 activity?

00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:54.920
 How can we

00:13:54.920 --> 00:13:56.120
 understand it?

00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:57.840
 So,

00:13:58.060 --> 00:13:58.660
 first of all,

00:13:58.940 --> 00:13:59.420
 Christianity

00:13:59.420 --> 00:14:00.700
 asserts

00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:02.080
 that

00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:03.680
 God is active

00:14:03.680 --> 00:14:04.340
 in the world.

00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:04.379
 world.

00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:07.519
 So,

00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:07.920
 I'm just

00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:08.120
 going to

00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:08.700
 leave that,

00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:09.860
 you know,

00:14:10.180 --> 00:14:10.480
 we're going

00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:10.720
 to just

00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:11.300
 assume that

00:14:11.300 --> 00:14:13.000
 as Christians.

00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:14.360
 But how

00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:14.660
 can we,

00:14:14.780 --> 00:14:15.320
 how are we

00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:15.580
 supposed to

00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:16.240
 understand

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.019
 this activity,

00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:18.920
 right?

00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:20.560
 There's actually

00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:21.060
 been a lot of

00:14:21.060 --> 00:14:21.500
 discussion

00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:22.620
 on these

00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:23.259
 arguments

00:14:23.259 --> 00:14:24.519
 with much

00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:24.920
 of the

00:14:24.920 --> 00:14:25.300
 talking

00:14:25.300 --> 00:14:25.920
 surrounding

00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:26.560
 it

00:14:26.560 --> 00:14:29.320
 talking about

00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:30.759
 what could

00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:31.320
 or could not

00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:31.879
 be a miracle.

00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:33.200
 when are we

00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:33.759
 talking about

00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:34.100
 miracles,

00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:34.500
 when are we

00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:35.039
 talking about

00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.720
 just regular

00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:36.379
 activity?

00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:37.399
 Is everything

00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:37.820
 a miracle?

00:14:38.659 --> 00:14:38.860
 Right?

00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:40.340
 Some Christians

00:14:40.340 --> 00:14:41.019
 would argue

00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:41.419
 yes,

00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:42.179
 right?

00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:42.700
 There is no

00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:43.159
 such thing

00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:43.559
 as like a

00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:44.460
 natural law

00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:45.539
 that has

00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:46.240
 its own

00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.259
 abilities,

00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:48.759
 its own

00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:49.299
 functions,

00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:49.899
 it has

00:14:49.899 --> 00:14:50.720
 ingrained

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:51.320
 causal

00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:51.820
 abilities.

00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:53.279
 Everything

00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:54.120
 is God's

00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:54.939
 active

00:14:54.939 --> 00:14:55.480
 activity.

00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:55.919
 So,

00:14:55.980 --> 00:14:56.279
 in a sense,

00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:56.820
 everything is

00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:57.139
 a miracle,

00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:57.580
 right?

00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.059
 The fact

00:14:58.059 --> 00:14:58.419
 that the

00:14:58.419 --> 00:14:58.759
 laws of

00:14:58.759 --> 00:14:59.059
 nature

00:14:59.059 --> 00:15:00.820
 are in

00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:02.879
 force

00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:04.620
 is because

00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:05.740
 not that there

00:15:05.740 --> 00:15:06.240
 is such a

00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:06.440
 thing as

00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:06.640
 the law

00:15:06.640 --> 00:15:06.960
 of nature,

00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:07.879
 only because

00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:08.420
 God is

00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:09.220
 doing

00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:10.600
 the thing

00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:11.000
 that we

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:11.960
 as scientists

00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:12.940
 observe and

00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:13.120
 say,

00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:13.400
 okay,

00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:13.800
 this is a

00:15:13.800 --> 00:15:14.480
 regular thing,

00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:14.879
 we're going

00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.060
 to call

00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:15.320
 this the

00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:15.620
 law of

00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:15.879
 nature,

00:15:16.140 --> 00:15:16.400
 right?

00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:17.879
 Now,

00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:18.340
 there has

00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:18.500
 been

00:15:18.500 --> 00:15:19.460
 disagreement.

00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:22.480
 Evangelical

00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:22.840
 Christians

00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:23.840
 generally

00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:24.540
 arrive at

00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:25.200
 a picture

00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:26.620
 that separates

00:15:26.620 --> 00:15:28.500
 God's

00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:29.900
 ordinary

00:15:29.900 --> 00:15:30.560
 providence

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:32.079
 God

00:15:32.079 --> 00:15:32.599
 working

00:15:32.599 --> 00:15:32.819
 through

00:15:32.819 --> 00:15:33.319
 secondary

00:15:33.319 --> 00:15:34.019
 causation,

00:15:34.439 --> 00:15:34.839
 this is

00:15:34.839 --> 00:15:35.339
 God's

00:15:35.339 --> 00:15:35.979
 sort of

00:15:35.979 --> 00:15:36.139
 what I

00:15:36.139 --> 00:15:36.379
 was just

00:15:36.379 --> 00:15:36.759
 describing,

00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:37.439
 sustaining

00:15:37.439 --> 00:15:38.000
 the world

00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:38.339
 and its

00:15:38.339 --> 00:15:39.579
 regularities

00:15:39.579 --> 00:15:40.039
 and existence,

00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:40.399
 right?

00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:40.559
 And we

00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:40.919
 have a lot

00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:41.799
 of biblical

00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:42.459
 evidence that

00:15:42.459 --> 00:15:42.899
 this is what

00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:43.599
 God does,

00:15:43.839 --> 00:15:44.119
 okay?

00:15:44.479 --> 00:15:44.799
 So,

00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:45.279
 pretty much

00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:45.919
 everybody agrees

00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:46.219
 on this

00:15:46.219 --> 00:15:46.500
 point,

00:15:47.099 --> 00:15:47.339
 right?

00:15:47.459 --> 00:15:48.079
 That God

00:15:48.079 --> 00:15:49.119
 does sustain

00:15:49.119 --> 00:15:50.879
 the way

00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:51.179
 that the

00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:51.739
 world works,

00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:52.019
 right?

00:15:52.119 --> 00:15:52.599
 Nothing

00:15:52.599 --> 00:15:54.359
 that came

00:15:54.359 --> 00:15:54.839
 into being

00:15:54.839 --> 00:15:55.399
 would come

00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:55.719
 into being

00:15:55.719 --> 00:15:56.719
 without God

00:15:56.719 --> 00:15:57.179
 and Jesus

00:15:57.179 --> 00:15:58.019
 sustaining it,

00:15:58.159 --> 00:15:59.179
 upholding the

00:15:59.179 --> 00:15:59.459
 world,

00:15:59.539 --> 00:15:59.939
 as it were,

00:16:00.099 --> 00:16:00.359
 right?

00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.700
 And so

00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:02.340
 the idea

00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:02.759
 of ordinary

00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:03.539
 providence

00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:03.919
 is that

00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:04.440
 God,

00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:05.240
 in his

00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:05.879
 foreknowledge

00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:06.120
 and in

00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:06.740
 his power,

00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:08.980
 creates

00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:09.879
 things or

00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:10.500
 sustains

00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:11.460
 things using

00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:12.019
 secondary

00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:12.500
 causes,

00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:13.759
 right?

00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:15.080
 So he

00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:16.700
 creates,

00:16:17.060 --> 00:16:18.060
 for instance,

00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:19.259
 physical

00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:20.680
 things that

00:16:20.680 --> 00:16:21.180
 have certain

00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:22.460
 properties ingrained

00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:23.100
 in the physical

00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:23.720
 things that

00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:24.980
 behave with

00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:25.920
 the laws of

00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:26.639
 nature in a

00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:27.100
 certain way,

00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:27.720
 right?

00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.139
 Does that make

00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:28.399
 sense?

00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:29.419
 So,

00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:30.379
 in a sense,

00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:31.559
 so maybe a

00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:31.799
 way of

00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:32.199
 understanding

00:16:32.199 --> 00:16:32.639
 ordinary

00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:33.259
 providence is

00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:33.860
 to say that

00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:34.819
 when God

00:16:34.819 --> 00:16:36.120
 says that

00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:37.080
 he knit

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:37.720
 you in

00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:38.240
 your mother's

00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:38.539
 womb,

00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:40.279
 he was being

00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:41.960
 honest,

00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:42.740
 right?

00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:44.060
 But we

00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:44.899
 also know

00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:46.419
 how,

00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:47.100
 you know,

00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:47.680
 kids,

00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:48.320
 look away

00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:48.600
 from the

00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:48.840
 thing,

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:49.919
 how egg

00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:50.379
 and sperm

00:16:50.379 --> 00:16:50.840
 work,

00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:51.399
 right?

00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:52.919
 How embryonic

00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:53.460
 development

00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:54.019
 works,

00:16:54.680 --> 00:16:55.580
 how placental

00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:57.940
 biology

00:16:57.940 --> 00:16:58.680
 works,

00:16:58.980 --> 00:16:59.259
 right?

00:16:59.299 --> 00:17:00.019
 We know all

00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:00.560
 that stuff.

00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:01.340
 I mean,

00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:01.720
 you will

00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:02.139
 eventually.

00:17:02.139 --> 00:17:04.259
 So,

00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:04.859
 we know how

00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:05.279
 that works,

00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:05.579
 but at the

00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:06.059
 same time,

00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:06.639
 we also

00:17:06.639 --> 00:17:07.400
 understand that

00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:08.359
 it is God's

00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:09.559
 sustaining work

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.139
 that maintains

00:17:12.139 --> 00:17:12.779
 the pregnancy.

00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:13.859
 It is God

00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:16.440
 active in the

00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:17.559
 secondary causes

00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:18.339
 that makes the

00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:18.900
 pregnancy work,

00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:19.359
 and this is

00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:20.299
 throughout all

00:17:20.299 --> 00:17:21.059
 of Scripture,

00:17:21.619 --> 00:17:21.920
 right?

00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:23.200
 The birth of

00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:23.519
 Isaac,

00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:25.879
 the birth of

00:17:25.879 --> 00:17:26.740
 John the

00:17:26.740 --> 00:17:27.059
 Baptist.

00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:27.940
 These are all

00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:28.720
 instances where

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.359
 the people in

00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:31.519
 these situations

00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.240
 attribute the

00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:35.819
 pregnancy to

00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:37.719
 God's direct

00:17:37.719 --> 00:17:38.259
 activity,

00:17:39.099 --> 00:17:40.599
 but it

00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:41.599
 wasn't a

00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:42.339
 virgin birth

00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:43.019
 or a virgin

00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:44.579
 conception like

00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:45.139
 Jesus,

00:17:45.679 --> 00:17:46.000
 right?

00:17:47.199 --> 00:17:47.899
 You know,

00:17:48.399 --> 00:17:49.079
 the husband and

00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:49.799
 wife really did

00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.339
 love each other,

00:17:50.699 --> 00:17:50.979
 right?

00:17:51.659 --> 00:17:52.679
 So that's a way

00:17:52.679 --> 00:17:53.240
 of understanding

00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:54.359
 ordinary providence,

00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:56.059
 which all

00:17:56.059 --> 00:17:57.019
 Christians affirm.

00:17:58.039 --> 00:17:58.779
 But there is

00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:00.339
 an idea of

00:18:00.339 --> 00:18:00.879
 what's called

00:18:00.879 --> 00:18:01.679
 extraordinary

00:18:01.679 --> 00:18:02.279
 providence,

00:18:02.399 --> 00:18:03.099
 which is God's

00:18:03.099 --> 00:18:04.359
 primary activity

00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:06.699
 in the world.

00:18:08.199 --> 00:18:09.119
 And so how

00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:09.919
 can we understand

00:18:09.919 --> 00:18:10.299
 extraordinary

00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:10.839
 providence?

00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:11.959
 This is describing

00:18:11.959 --> 00:18:12.819
 God's work in

00:18:12.819 --> 00:18:13.359
 history that

00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:14.639
 extends beyond

00:18:14.639 --> 00:18:16.039
 the regular

00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:16.799
 activity in the

00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:18.039
 world, which

00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:18.559
 would include

00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.019
 what we would

00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:19.619
 call miracles,

00:18:20.399 --> 00:18:20.699
 right?

00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:21.819
 So we all

00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:23.379
 understand how

00:18:23.379 --> 00:18:25.059
 a baby is

00:18:25.059 --> 00:18:25.659
 conceived and

00:18:25.659 --> 00:18:26.959
 born, but we

00:18:26.959 --> 00:18:28.159
 don't understand

00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.540
 how, based

00:18:30.540 --> 00:18:31.040
 on just

00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:31.460
 secondary

00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:32.140
 causation,

00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:32.779
 water can

00:18:32.779 --> 00:18:33.140
 turn into

00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:33.400
 wine.

00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:34.720
 Does that

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:35.160
 make sense?

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:36.980
 So this is

00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:37.480
 an activity.

00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:38.300
 Water, in

00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:39.820
 general, doesn't

00:18:39.820 --> 00:18:40.240
 turn into

00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:41.600
 wine, right?

00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:42.180
 You usually

00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:42.540
 need some

00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:43.040
 grapes and

00:18:43.040 --> 00:18:43.660
 some thyme,

00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:44.180
 et cetera,

00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:44.680
 right?

00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:48.720
 But this

00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:49.400
 isn't to say

00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:49.960
 that God

00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:50.740
 necessarily

00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:54.519
 disappeared

00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:55.259
 the water

00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:55.839
 and then

00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:57.000
 reappeared

00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:58.019
 wine in

00:18:58.019 --> 00:18:58.559
 its place.

00:18:58.759 --> 00:18:59.880
 He transformed

00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:00.900
 water into

00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:01.960
 wine without

00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:02.519
 using the

00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:03.079
 normal natural

00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:03.700
 processes,

00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:04.220
 right?

00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:04.680
 He uses

00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.700
 primary causation

00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:06.380
 in some way.

00:19:07.420 --> 00:19:07.880
 And the

00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:08.900
 reason we

00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:10.099
 call miracles

00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:10.980
 miracles is

00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:11.460
 because they

00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:12.299
 go beyond

00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:13.660
 the normal

00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:14.480
 activity of

00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.880
 the world,

00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:15.559
 right?

00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.180
 You know,

00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:20.019
 basically

00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:20.700
 resurrections

00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:21.360
 are astounding

00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:22.100
 because dead

00:19:22.100 --> 00:19:24.299
 people have

00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:24.820
 a propensity

00:19:24.820 --> 00:19:25.380
 to stay

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:26.940
 dead, right?

00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:27.820
 In our

00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:28.400
 normal

00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:29.000
 experience.

00:19:29.980 --> 00:19:30.500
 Now, there

00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:31.480
 actually is a

00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:31.860
 lot of

00:19:31.860 --> 00:19:32.380
 discussion,

00:19:33.620 --> 00:19:33.860
 you know,

00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:34.940
 does this

00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:36.460
 require God

00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:37.039
 to break

00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:37.620
 his own

00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:38.100
 laws,

00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:38.779
 right?

00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:41.039
 This is a

00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:41.880
 long-standing

00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:43.560
 argument among

00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:44.740
 philosophers of

00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:45.080
 religion.

00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:45.680
 In fact,

00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:47.620
 this very

00:19:47.620 --> 00:19:48.620
 question is

00:19:48.620 --> 00:19:49.160
 one of the

00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:50.080
 driving forces.

00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:50.740
 In the first

00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:51.160
 class, we

00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:51.480
 talked about

00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:52.540
 the fundamentalist

00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:54.000
 modernist

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:54.840
 divide,

00:19:55.100 --> 00:19:55.440
 right?

00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.100
 Where there's

00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:57.460
 a lot of

00:19:57.460 --> 00:19:58.000
 philosophical

00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:58.900
 arguments going

00:19:58.900 --> 00:19:59.300
 on, and

00:19:59.300 --> 00:19:59.860
 one of them

00:19:59.860 --> 00:20:01.220
 was among

00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:01.740
 modernists,

00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:02.620
 the argument

00:20:02.620 --> 00:20:03.700
 that extraordinary

00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:04.820
 providence is

00:20:04.820 --> 00:20:05.400
 impossible,

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:06.779
 right?

00:20:07.580 --> 00:20:08.180
 Extraordinary

00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:08.740
 providence is

00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:11.500
 impossible because

00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:12.340
 this would

00:20:12.340 --> 00:20:13.500
 require God

00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:13.960
 to break

00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:14.320
 his own

00:20:14.320 --> 00:20:15.100
 laws, and

00:20:15.100 --> 00:20:15.620
 that's an

00:20:15.620 --> 00:20:16.620
 inconsistency in

00:20:16.620 --> 00:20:17.160
 his character,

00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:18.040
 right?

00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:19.659
 Now, of

00:20:19.659 --> 00:20:21.299
 course, if you

00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:21.980
 follow that

00:20:21.980 --> 00:20:22.920
 logically down

00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:24.799
 the slide,

00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:25.779
 then you

00:20:25.779 --> 00:20:27.599
 stop believing

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:28.019
 in the virgin

00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:29.000
 birth, you

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:29.579
 stop believing

00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:30.259
 in the

00:20:30.259 --> 00:20:30.759
 miracles of

00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:31.879
 Jesus, the

00:20:31.879 --> 00:20:32.519
 resurrection of

00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:33.639
 Jesus, and

00:20:33.639 --> 00:20:34.920
 this is how a

00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:35.859
 lot of the

00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:37.839
 theologians,

00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:38.339
 such as

00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:38.720
 Bultman,

00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.240
 slid into

00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.200
 agnosticism,

00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:44.819
 if not outright

00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:45.420
 atheism,

00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:47.259
 because if

00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:47.740
 you argue

00:20:47.740 --> 00:20:48.100
 that there

00:20:48.100 --> 00:20:48.440
 is no

00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:48.860
 such thing

00:20:48.860 --> 00:20:49.279
 as a

00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:49.800
 possibility

00:20:49.800 --> 00:20:50.259
 of such

00:20:50.259 --> 00:20:50.460
 a thing

00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:50.680
 as a

00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:50.960
 miracle,

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.200
 then you

00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:54.100
 come up

00:20:54.100 --> 00:20:56.320
 against those

00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:56.860
 miracles in

00:20:56.860 --> 00:20:57.140
 the Bible,

00:20:57.320 --> 00:20:57.580
 right?

00:20:58.180 --> 00:20:59.900
 So, now

00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:00.380
 the argument

00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:01.039
 is, so

00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:02.580
 most Orthodox

00:21:02.580 --> 00:21:03.259
 Christians really

00:21:03.259 --> 00:21:04.360
 aren't arguing

00:21:04.360 --> 00:21:05.039
 at this level,

00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:05.620
 we're usually

00:21:05.620 --> 00:21:06.160
 arguing at the

00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:06.580
 next level,

00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:07.100
 which is,

00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:08.039
 when is it

00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:08.720
 appropriate for

00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:10.000
 us to appeal

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:10.400
 to an

00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:11.120
 ordinary versus

00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:11.840
 an extraordinary

00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:13.759
 called providence,

00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:14.559
 right?

00:21:15.879 --> 00:21:16.839
 And so, like I

00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:17.400
 said before,

00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:19.240
 some Christians

00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:20.460
 would argue that

00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:21.240
 everything is

00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:21.619
 extraordinary

00:21:21.619 --> 00:21:22.200
 providence,

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:23.339
 right?

00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:25.220
 God is doing

00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:26.640
 everything actively

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:28.019
 all the time,

00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:29.200
 not in a

00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:30.019
 sustaining way

00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:30.779
 using secondary

00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:31.559
 causation, but

00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:32.359
 in a primary

00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:33.640
 way, right?

00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:34.420
 That's one way

00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:34.960
 of understanding

00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:35.240
 it.

00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:38.740
 But, generally,

00:21:38.980 --> 00:21:39.460
 that is not,

00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:40.480
 that is,

00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:42.579
 that is not

00:21:42.579 --> 00:21:42.900
 really going to

00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:43.440
 be playing a

00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.380
 major role

00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:45.480
 in the sort

00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:46.220
 of evolution,

00:21:46.840 --> 00:21:47.500
 theistic evolution,

00:21:48.100 --> 00:21:48.779
 intelligent design

00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:49.299
 arguments,

00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:49.720
 right?

00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:51.000
 Although that

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.700
 is a part,

00:21:52.820 --> 00:21:53.440
 so, you know,

00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:53.720
 if you're going

00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:54.000
 to be reading

00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.380
 the literature,

00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:55.120
 this is going

00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:55.740
 to come up.

00:21:57.940 --> 00:21:59.440
 So, but

00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.880
 basically,

00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:01.059
 when it comes

00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:01.700
 down to the

00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:02.320
 science of faith

00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:02.779
 discussion,

00:22:03.259 --> 00:22:03.840
 you really get

00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:04.880
 generally two

00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:05.700
 groups, right?

00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:07.779
 You get one,

00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:09.100
 you get your,

00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:10.279
 what I'm calling

00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:10.900
 providential

00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:11.500
 creationists,

00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:12.680
 which, after

00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:13.660
 having made

00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:14.180
 the PowerPoint

00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:14.620
 and all the

00:22:14.620 --> 00:22:15.740
 outlines, I

00:22:15.740 --> 00:22:16.299
 realized that I

00:22:16.299 --> 00:22:16.900
 used providence

00:22:16.900 --> 00:22:17.360
 in a different

00:22:17.360 --> 00:22:18.880
 way, just like

00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:19.640
 a slide ago.

00:22:20.620 --> 00:22:21.240
 Anyways, I was

00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:21.940
 too lazy to

00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:22.740
 redo everything.

00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:23.779
 So, I'm going

00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:24.080
 to call them

00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:24.600
 providential

00:22:24.600 --> 00:22:25.519
 creationists, but

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.720
 this is basically

00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:27.940
 the argument that

00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:28.799
 God universally,

00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:29.779
 in creation,

00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:31.380
 is using secondary

00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:31.960
 causation.

00:22:32.080 --> 00:22:32.880
 He's using ordinary

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:34.140
 providence, right?

00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.160
 So, God

00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:37.080
 imbued

00:22:37.080 --> 00:22:38.660
 nature with

00:22:38.660 --> 00:22:39.540
 certain properties

00:22:39.540 --> 00:22:40.560
 that is capable

00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:42.000
 of bringing to

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000
 fruition that

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:43.600
 which he wants

00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:44.180
 to come to

00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:45.280
 fruition, okay?

00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:47.140
 In creation.

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:49.700
 Generally, this

00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:51.380
 also is,

00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:53.020
 this also comes

00:22:53.020 --> 00:22:53.960
 with, or is a

00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:54.920
 result from,

00:22:55.259 --> 00:22:56.640
 a high confidence

00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.540
 in science's

00:22:58.540 --> 00:23:00.020
 ability to explain

00:23:00.020 --> 00:23:00.980
 all phenomena,

00:23:01.320 --> 00:23:01.640
 right?

00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:03.780
 So, we, you

00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:04.220
 know, we live

00:23:04.220 --> 00:23:05.180
 in a time where

00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:05.800
 science is able

00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:06.640
 to explain a

00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:07.480
 whole bunch of

00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:08.020
 different things.

00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:09.080
 And so, in the

00:23:09.080 --> 00:23:09.900
 minds of scientists

00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:11.220
 and non-scientists

00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:12.300
 alike, there is

00:23:12.300 --> 00:23:13.040
 this view that

00:23:13.040 --> 00:23:14.400
 given enough time

00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.259
 and enough effort,

00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:17.160
 all phenomena

00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:18.200
 that we see or

00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.200
 can observe can

00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:21.220
 be explained,

00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:22.680
 can be interpreted

00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.840
 in some sort of

00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:26.340
 naturalistic way or

00:23:26.340 --> 00:23:28.140
 in a way that

00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:29.640
 comes down to

00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:30.600
 natural things

00:23:30.600 --> 00:23:31.300
 doing natural

00:23:31.299 --> 00:23:32.579
 things resulting

00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:33.720
 in natural

00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:34.779
 things, right?

00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:36.480
 So, this is that

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:37.279
 mechanism, that's

00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:40.119
 that assumption

00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.500
 of methodological

00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:43.879
 naturalism, right?

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:44.819
 Which assumes

00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:45.579
 that in science

00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:46.079
 we're going to be

00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:46.819
 talking only about

00:23:46.819 --> 00:23:47.500
 natural causes

00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:48.119
 doing natural

00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:49.220
 things, right?

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:51.059
 And so, if science

00:23:51.059 --> 00:23:51.639
 has made a lot of

00:23:51.639 --> 00:23:53.299
 inroads using this

00:23:53.299 --> 00:23:54.079
 assumption of

00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:54.919
 methodological

00:23:54.919 --> 00:23:55.839
 naturalism, which

00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.159
 again, is not like

00:23:57.159 --> 00:23:58.460
 in the bylaws of

00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:00.139
 science, but it is

00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:01.880
 philosophically an

00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:04.140
 assumption, then

00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:05.020
 maybe that will

00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:05.560
 just continue

00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:06.960
 forever and

00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:07.259
 we'll get

00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:08.320
 everything pretty

00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:09.880
 timed in.

00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:10.400
 Yeah, Ivor?

00:24:11.040 --> 00:24:12.380
 Does this put

00:24:12.380 --> 00:24:13.300
 aside God's

00:24:13.300 --> 00:24:13.759
 sovereignty?

00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.859
 mean, he has to

00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:18.460
 abide by certain

00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:18.839
 rules.

00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:19.539
 If he's a

00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:20.279
 sovereign of the

00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:21.039
 universe, he can

00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:21.640
 do whatever he

00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:22.000
 wants.

00:24:22.379 --> 00:24:24.039
 In principle, yes.

00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:25.000
 But the argument

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:25.839
 they would argue

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:28.180
 is that

00:24:28.180 --> 00:24:31.839
 God in his

00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:32.799
 foreknowledge

00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.700
 created materials

00:24:34.700 --> 00:24:35.819
 that in his

00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:36.500
 sovereignty would

00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:37.539
 bring to fruition

00:24:37.539 --> 00:24:38.059
 what he wanted

00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:39.180
 to bring, right?

00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:40.299
 So it's not like

00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:41.000
 he's restricting

00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:41.420
 himself.

00:24:41.420 --> 00:24:42.560
 They're saying

00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:43.480
 God is front

00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:44.680
 loading in his

00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:45.640
 creation everything

00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:46.660
 that's necessary

00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:48.840
 to bring what he

00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:49.500
 wants to bring,

00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:50.360
 right?

00:24:50.620 --> 00:24:51.320
 There's nothing

00:24:51.320 --> 00:24:52.640
 lacking in nature

00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:53.880
 to do what God

00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:54.539
 wants it to do.

00:24:54.860 --> 00:24:55.220
 Does that make

00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:55.480
 sense?

00:24:56.660 --> 00:24:57.320
 It's a sort of a

00:24:57.320 --> 00:24:57.420
 best...

00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:58.860
 In a sense, it's

00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:00.820
 limiting God with

00:25:00.820 --> 00:25:01.720
 that explanation.

00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:03.380
 I mean, that's a

00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:04.860
 way of understanding

00:25:04.860 --> 00:25:05.140
 it.

00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:06.080
 I think they would

00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:07.480
 argue that that is

00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.480
 a reverse...

00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:10.079
 They would argue

00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.059
 that that's...

00:25:11.059 --> 00:25:11.799
 What you're saying

00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:13.019
 is a limitation of

00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:14.039
 God because what

00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:15.259
 you're saying is

00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:16.160
 that God couldn't

00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:17.099
 create something

00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:18.799
 that could do what

00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:19.740
 he wants it to do.

00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:21.180
 He would have to

00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.360
 actively intervene,

00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:23.180
 right?

00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:24.240
 I'm not saying that

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.220
 that's a very...

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:27.019
 I'm not saying that

00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:28.240
 that's the correct

00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.660
 argument.

00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:30.720
 Yeah, I mean,

00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:31.120
 right.

00:25:31.299 --> 00:25:32.059
 It's a philosophical

00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:33.039
 disagreement, right?

00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:33.759
 And it's going to

00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.079
 come down to batting

00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:35.700
 back and forth in

00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:36.059
 that way.

00:25:36.059 --> 00:25:38.240
 So along with

00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.799
 science's ability

00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:41.119
 to explain information

00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:42.740
 or the phenomena,

00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:44.500
 there's also sort of

00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:45.179
 an assumption of a

00:25:45.179 --> 00:25:46.000
 causally closed

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:46.299
 universe.

00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:47.179
 If you're a

00:25:47.179 --> 00:25:48.319
 philosophy-minded

00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.819
 person, basically

00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:50.740
 that means that

00:25:50.740 --> 00:25:51.879
 everything is in a

00:25:51.879 --> 00:25:52.899
 chain of cause and

00:25:52.899 --> 00:25:54.279
 effect and that

00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:55.359
 that chain of cause

00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:55.980
 and effect can't be

00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:56.259
 broken.

00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.220
 Anyways, if you're

00:25:59.220 --> 00:25:59.619
 interested in that,

00:25:59.639 --> 00:26:00.019
 you can ask the

00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:00.599
 question afterwards.

00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:01.539
 That's problematic.

00:26:02.099 --> 00:26:02.839
 It is problematic.

00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:05.519
 So Orthodox

00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:06.619
 Christians will

00:26:06.619 --> 00:26:07.299
 acknowledge that

00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:08.159
 extraordinary providence

00:26:08.159 --> 00:26:10.259
 is a thing, but

00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:11.240
 they tend to

00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:12.839
 restrict this to

00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:13.659
 what they would

00:26:13.659 --> 00:26:14.759
 consider theologically

00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:16.259
 important situations,

00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:17.139
 right?

00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:18.179
 So they would say,

00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.299
 oh yeah, to be an

00:26:20.299 --> 00:26:20.879
 Orthodox Christian,

00:26:20.959 --> 00:26:21.539
 you have to believe in

00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:22.319
 the virgin birth of

00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:23.779
 Jesus Christ and his

00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:24.279
 resurrection.

00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.199
 These are miracles.

00:26:27.439 --> 00:26:28.319
 These are instances

00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:29.619
 of extraordinary

00:26:29.619 --> 00:26:30.740
 providence, but

00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.019
 these are occurring

00:26:33.019 --> 00:26:34.420
 because God has a

00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:35.220
 human audience that

00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:36.880
 he is then trying to

00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:38.680
 give theological

00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:39.680
 information to,

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:40.259
 right?

00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.380
 And in creation, we

00:26:41.380 --> 00:26:41.880
 don't have that

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:42.180
 argument.

00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:43.620
 That's their argument.

00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:45.980
 The next group is

00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:46.740
 what I'm calling

00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:47.839
 designing creationists,

00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:48.400
 which again, I'm

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.019
 actually not very

00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:50.000
 happy with that idea.

00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:50.380
 Yeah.

00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:51.059
 Lay down,

00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:51.319
 Amos.

00:26:51.460 --> 00:26:52.120
 Question on the

00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:52.640
 last slide.

00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:52.940
 Yeah.

00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:54.980
 How does quantum

00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:56.160
 mechanics play a role

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:56.839
 in these arguments

00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:00.059
 where there are

00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:00.839
 phenomena that don't

00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:01.019
 have?

00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:01.339
 How's that?

00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:02.940
 Yeah.

00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.279
 So that's a great

00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:04.679
 question.

00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:06.919
 In fact, in Alvin

00:27:06.919 --> 00:27:08.819
 Plantaga's book,

00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:10.619
 Where the Conflict

00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:13.159
 Really Lies, he's

00:27:13.159 --> 00:27:14.579
 going to argue that

00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.859
 a causally closed

00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:18.919
 universe is

00:27:18.919 --> 00:27:20.339
 scientifically, well,

00:27:20.419 --> 00:27:21.159
 philosophically

00:27:21.159 --> 00:27:21.879
 unwarranted,

00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:23.220
 scientifically unwarranted,

00:27:23.639 --> 00:27:24.759
 and now, given our

00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:25.519
 understanding of quantum

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.299
 mechanics, doesn't

00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:28.579
 really make any sense

00:27:28.579 --> 00:27:29.779
 because we're not

00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:31.240
 talking about strict

00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:31.859
 cause and effect,

00:27:31.939 --> 00:27:32.399
 we're talking about

00:27:32.399 --> 00:27:33.480
 probabilities of

00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:33.859
 effect.

00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:36.679
 There are some

00:27:36.679 --> 00:27:37.679
 arguments against

00:27:37.679 --> 00:27:38.019
 that.

00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.259
 I don't have enough

00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:40.079
 time to go into

00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.779
 how some

00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:45.720
 interpretations of

00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:46.599
 quantum mechanics

00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:48.059
 result in

00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:49.779
 potentially a still

00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:50.559
 causally closed

00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:51.059
 universe.

00:27:51.939 --> 00:27:52.839
 They would argue

00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:53.500
 that the particles

00:27:53.500 --> 00:27:54.159
 themselves, while

00:27:54.159 --> 00:27:55.259
 acting unpredictably,

00:27:55.259 --> 00:27:58.000
 have their own

00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.140
 causally determined

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:01.819
 properties that are

00:28:01.819 --> 00:28:04.299
 then resulting in

00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:07.460
 what we would call

00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:11.859
 unpredictability,

00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:13.259
 which on that

00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:14.279
 back end is not

00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:15.259
 actually unpredictable.

00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:17.400
 Those are very

00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:18.779
 in the multiverse

00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:19.599
 direction, right?

00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:21.779
 Yeah, I mean, they

00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:23.079
 go multiverse, or

00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:23.579
 they're going to

00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:24.639
 argue about

00:28:24.639 --> 00:28:25.699
 different fundamental

00:28:25.699 --> 00:28:27.000
 properties of the

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:28.240
 particles themselves,

00:28:28.919 --> 00:28:30.419
 and how the

00:28:30.419 --> 00:28:31.439
 particles themselves

00:28:31.439 --> 00:28:33.879
 are then, how

00:28:33.879 --> 00:28:34.500
 they come into

00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:35.279
 being, right?

00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:36.139
 So you can imagine

00:28:36.139 --> 00:28:37.179
 a situation when you

00:28:37.179 --> 00:28:37.819
 have a chain of

00:28:37.819 --> 00:28:38.519
 cause and effect

00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.179
 that produces this

00:28:41.179 --> 00:28:42.099
 particle that then

00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:43.459
 has unpredictable

00:28:43.459 --> 00:28:45.500
 properties that, on

00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:46.799
 the macro scale,

00:28:47.219 --> 00:28:48.480
 events in phenomena

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.500
 that are then

00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:51.299
 understandable under

00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:51.980
 cause and effect.

00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:53.059
 So they would

00:28:53.059 --> 00:28:54.860
 bring the causally

00:28:54.860 --> 00:28:55.779
 closeness back

00:28:55.779 --> 00:28:56.980
 words.

00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:58.180
 Does that make

00:28:58.180 --> 00:28:58.400
 sense?

00:28:58.940 --> 00:28:59.779
 If it doesn't make

00:28:59.779 --> 00:29:00.579
 sense, it's because

00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:02.220
 it barely makes

00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:02.779
 sense to me.

00:29:05.299 --> 00:29:06.440
 But moving on,

00:29:06.620 --> 00:29:07.539
 we got designing

00:29:07.539 --> 00:29:08.079
 creationists.

00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:08.740
 I like that question

00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:09.700
 that Amos, by the

00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:09.860
 way.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:11.620
 Designing

00:29:11.620 --> 00:29:12.460
 creationists, as you

00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:13.279
 might imagine,

00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:14.640
 believe that God

00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:15.299
 creates through a

00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:16.240
 combination of

00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:17.099
 primary and

00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:18.059
 secondary causation.

00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:18.879
 And we're talking

00:29:18.879 --> 00:29:19.599
 about creation

00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:20.539
 here, right?

00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:20.980
 Because I just

00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:22.119
 mentioned, Orthodox

00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:22.819
 Christians who are

00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:23.700
 of the providential

00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:26.579
 stripe will acknowledge

00:29:26.579 --> 00:29:27.619
 extraordinary stuff, but

00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:28.319
 only in really

00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:29.759
 theological situations,

00:29:30.179 --> 00:29:30.460
 right?

00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:31.659
 But designing

00:29:31.659 --> 00:29:32.659
 creationists are more

00:29:32.659 --> 00:29:34.220
 comfortable with God

00:29:34.220 --> 00:29:35.379
 having primary and

00:29:35.379 --> 00:29:36.539
 secondary causation in

00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:36.919
 creation.

00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:39.559
 Usually, this is

00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:41.079
 accompanied with a

00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:41.839
 less sanguine

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.200
 outlook on what

00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:46.960
 science could

00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.440
 ultimately predict.

00:29:50.580 --> 00:29:51.640
 They would believe

00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.180
 that science will

00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:54.960
 not be able to

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.720
 explain all

00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:56.180
 phenomena.

00:29:57.660 --> 00:29:58.259
 And therefore,

00:29:58.840 --> 00:29:59.759
 they would also

00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.460
 posit a causally

00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:02.400
 unclosed universe.

00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:03.700
 But again, the

00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:04.440
 philosophy of that is

00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:04.680
 weird.

00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.460
 But anyways, they

00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:10.180
 would say that they

00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:11.880
 would be looking for

00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.140
 recognizable signs of

00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:15.740
 God's activity in

00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:17.560
 nature because they're

00:30:17.560 --> 00:30:18.520
 going to be open to

00:30:18.520 --> 00:30:19.720
 primary causation in

00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:20.960
 creation if not

00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:21.620
 looking for it.

00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:23.560
 And Orthodox

00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:24.300
 Christians of this

00:30:24.300 --> 00:30:26.100
 position, they also

00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:28.480
 will affirm ordinary

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.860
 providence and how

00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:30.780
 important it has been

00:30:30.780 --> 00:30:31.220
 in history.

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:31.880
 They just don't think

00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:32.420
 it's the whole

00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:33.520
 McCoy.

00:30:33.740 --> 00:30:35.500
 It's not the whole

00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:35.800
 picture.

00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:38.319
 So, with that

00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:39.180
 background in mind,

00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.740
 just keep those two

00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:41.619
 groups sort of in

00:30:41.619 --> 00:30:42.099
 your mind.

00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:43.740
 I mean, it's pretty

00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:44.519
 obvious how they

00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:46.700
 cash out in the

00:30:46.700 --> 00:30:47.399
 theistic evolution

00:30:47.399 --> 00:30:48.639
 versus Intel

00:30:48.639 --> 00:30:50.559
 design argument.

00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:51.680
 But it is going to

00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.460
 be interesting, I

00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:53.259
 think, at the end

00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:54.200
 to bring it all

00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:55.240
 home to what I

00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:55.899
 think is this

00:30:55.899 --> 00:30:57.240
 disagreement about

00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:58.139
 what does it mean

00:30:58.139 --> 00:30:58.720
 for God to be

00:30:58.720 --> 00:30:59.639
 active in creation.

00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:02.259
 So, let's talk

00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:02.919
 about theistic

00:31:02.919 --> 00:31:03.319
 evolution.

00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:04.259
 I'm going to

00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.299
 give an overview

00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:07.559
 of how theistic

00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:08.839
 evolution arguments

00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:09.839
 generally work.

00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:11.579
 And then I'm going

00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:12.879
 to give two

00:31:12.879 --> 00:31:13.599
 arguments.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.759
 I'm looking at the

00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:17.000
 time.

00:31:17.259 --> 00:31:17.700
 I'm going to give

00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:18.559
 two arguments for

00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:19.240
 theistic evolution.

00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:19.939
 And then I'm going

00:31:19.939 --> 00:31:20.960
 to go over what

00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:21.700
 are usually the

00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:22.559
 general critiques of

00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:22.899
 the view.

00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:23.759
 And then I'm going

00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:24.399
 to do the same for

00:31:24.399 --> 00:31:25.019
 intelligent design.

00:31:25.419 --> 00:31:26.019
 And then I'm going

00:31:26.019 --> 00:31:26.500
 to close.

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.159
 So, we're going to

00:31:27.159 --> 00:31:28.960
 go quick.

00:31:29.379 --> 00:31:29.859
 All right.

00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:32.220
 So, what is the

00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:33.079
 basic form of a

00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:33.939
 theistic evolutionary

00:31:33.939 --> 00:31:34.359
 argument?

00:31:34.439 --> 00:31:34.740
 I'm going to call

00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:35.819
 it TE just to save

00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:37.259
 my mouth.

00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:42.199
 So, baseline, as we

00:31:42.199 --> 00:31:43.240
 talked about on

00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:44.240
 class one, they're

00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:45.139
 going to assume the

00:31:45.139 --> 00:31:46.099
 verifiable truth of

00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:46.720
 macroevolution.

00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:47.579
 Okay?

00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:50.679
 So, just, that's

00:31:50.679 --> 00:31:50.939
 that.

00:31:51.419 --> 00:31:52.599
 So, we're not really

00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:54.839
 going to try to

00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:55.819
 think about it not

00:31:55.819 --> 00:31:56.259
 being true.

00:31:56.419 --> 00:31:56.699
 They're going to

00:31:56.699 --> 00:31:57.179
 assume that it's

00:31:57.179 --> 00:31:57.379
 true.

00:31:57.779 --> 00:31:58.019
 Okay?

00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:00.839
 So, if we go back

00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:02.680
 to our thoughts of

00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:03.440
 scientific reasoning,

00:32:03.619 --> 00:32:04.799
 they accept the

00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.240
 interpretations of

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.420
 the data output of

00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:08.220
 a variety of

00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:08.819
 different sources,

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:09.819
 anthropology,

00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:10.940
 paleontology,

00:32:11.079 --> 00:32:13.799
 biology, geology.

00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:17.440
 Anyways, therefore,

00:32:17.619 --> 00:32:18.480
 usually the argument

00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:19.539
 comes in two

00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:20.240
 propositions,

00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:21.119
 generally.

00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:21.700
 Right?

00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:22.799
 The propositions are,

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.960
 one, the evolutionary

00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.759
 interpretation of the

00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.119
 science is true, and

00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:29.359
 two, the biblical

00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.480
 account is also true.

00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:31.480
 Right?

00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.579
 So, these two, this is

00:32:33.579 --> 00:32:34.839
 the basic form of the

00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:35.559
 argument, right?

00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:36.240
 Not all of their

00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.019
 arguments are for these

00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:38.240
 specific propositions,

00:32:38.660 --> 00:32:40.000
 but that's generally

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:40.379
 how it goes.

00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:41.400
 So, usually, when you

00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:43.200
 read TE literature,

00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:43.839
 you're going to be

00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:45.420
 looking at two

00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:47.839
 specific elements of

00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:48.900
 evolutionary thinking

00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.440
 paired with a

00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:53.799
 specific overlap area

00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:54.740
 of theology.

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.039
 So, for instance, to

00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:56.640
 give an example,

00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.019
 you know, proposition

00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.579
 one could be evolution

00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:00.940
 of humanity is true

00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:02.879
 versus proposition

00:33:02.879 --> 00:33:04.259
 two, man was made in

00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:04.839
 the image of God.

00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:06.420
 Okay?

00:33:06.980 --> 00:33:08.220
 Those both are true.

00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:10.119
 The TE position is

00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:11.779
 now I'm going to

00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:13.559
 explain why that can

00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:13.980
 be true.

00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:14.960
 Does that make sense?

00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:16.500
 So, you know, just

00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:17.960
 plug in any

00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:18.980
 evolutionary

00:33:18.980 --> 00:33:21.480
 interpretation in here,

00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:22.720
 plug in any

00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.379
 biblical interpretation

00:33:24.379 --> 00:33:25.680
 here that you think

00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.500
 are going to overlap

00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:28.980
 and then your argument

00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:30.759
 is these are going to

00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:31.279
 be coherent.

00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:32.200
 Okay?

00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:32.539
 Somehow.

00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:33.340
 Right?

00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:34.340
 And then the specifics

00:33:34.340 --> 00:33:35.640
 of how that works is

00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:36.299
 going to depend on the

00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:37.200
 specific argument being

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.039
 made and how they make

00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:38.900
 that argument, obviously.

00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:40.120
 So, I don't have time to

00:33:40.120 --> 00:33:42.400
 go through a lot of

00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.220
 these different arguments.

00:33:43.220 --> 00:33:43.279
 arguments.

00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:44.920
 I want to give you two

00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:46.539
 high-level arguments.

00:33:47.900 --> 00:33:49.240
 Oh, I already said that.

00:33:49.360 --> 00:33:49.500
 Okay.

00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:50.559
 So, just imagine that I'm

00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:51.059
 saying it again.

00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:53.059
 And they're going to work

00:33:53.059 --> 00:33:54.140
 about philosophically,

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:54.660
 theologically.

00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:55.640
 Again, right?

00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.460
 Because it's not a

00:33:56.460 --> 00:33:57.900
 scientific position, TE.

00:33:57.900 --> 00:33:59.420
 It is a philosophical,

00:33:59.740 --> 00:34:00.600
 theological position.

00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:01.700
 Right?

00:34:02.040 --> 00:34:03.940
 So, the concert of

00:34:03.940 --> 00:34:04.800
 these two propositions

00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:05.500
 is going to come down

00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:06.200
 to the philosophy,

00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:07.240
 interpretation, etc.

00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:09.280
 So, I want to give

00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.579
 two big-picture arguments.

00:34:12.180 --> 00:34:13.260
 These two big-picture

00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:13.920
 arguments, I think,

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:15.860
 give us an understanding

00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:17.059
 of the macro-level

00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:19.139
 argument for the big

00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:19.940
 picture of evolution

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:21.059
 and the big picture

00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:21.500
 of scripture.

00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:22.119
 Right?

00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:23.460
 So, these are going to

00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:25.039
 basically come down to

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.340
 evolution occurred

00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:32.000
 and two, God created

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:32.400
 the world.

00:34:33.779 --> 00:34:34.259
 Right?

00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.639
 So, these are the two

00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:36.679
 propositions that I'm

00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:37.420
 going to be dealing with

00:34:37.420 --> 00:34:38.619
 with two different kinds

00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:39.219
 of arguments.

00:34:40.279 --> 00:34:41.480
 And then, just to give

00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:42.840
 you a flavor about how

00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:44.519
 this cashes out,

00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:46.440
 and then we're going to

00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:47.460
 talk about criticisms.

00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:50.460
 Again, the breadth

00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:53.179
 of this position is so

00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:55.539
 wide that you're going

00:34:55.539 --> 00:34:57.519
 to find people who

00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.299
 will argue these two

00:34:59.299 --> 00:35:00.199
 propositions in

00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:01.019
 completely different

00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:01.379
 ways.

00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:02.059
 And then they're going

00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:03.279
 to argue with each

00:35:03.279 --> 00:35:04.779
 other over how your

00:35:04.779 --> 00:35:06.000
 solution to this

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.759
 problem, or this

00:35:07.759 --> 00:35:09.639
 coherence, is wrong,

00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:10.519
 but mine is right.

00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:11.440
 Okay?

00:35:11.759 --> 00:35:13.119
 So, I'm not pretending

00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.500
 to sort of present

00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:16.480
 this is the unified

00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:17.859
 front of theistic

00:35:17.859 --> 00:35:18.299
 evolution.

00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:19.859
 In fact, probably the

00:35:19.859 --> 00:35:20.599
 two arguments I'm going

00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:21.839
 to put forward

00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.180
 forward, they're not

00:35:24.180 --> 00:35:25.500
 mutually exclusive,

00:35:25.680 --> 00:35:26.400
 but the people who

00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.160
 would argue for one or

00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:27.740
 the other probably

00:35:27.740 --> 00:35:28.420
 wouldn't agree with

00:35:28.420 --> 00:35:28.700
 each other.

00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.440
 So, anyways, again,

00:35:31.579 --> 00:35:32.800
 that's just the nature

00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.700
 of this position.

00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:36.440
 So, the first one is

00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:37.059
 going to be pretty

00:35:37.059 --> 00:35:39.700
 hard, and it's going

00:35:39.700 --> 00:35:40.400
 to be dry.

00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:42.480
 So, prepare yourself.

00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:44.440
 This is a philosophical

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:45.079
 argument.

00:35:46.120 --> 00:35:46.340
 Okay?

00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:48.940
 So, and I've tried to

00:35:48.940 --> 00:35:51.079
 boil it down, but again,

00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:51.880
 there's an entire book

00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:52.179
 on it.

00:35:52.579 --> 00:35:54.819
 So, the book you're

00:35:54.819 --> 00:35:55.319
 going to want to read

00:35:55.319 --> 00:35:55.980
 if you want more on

00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:56.860
 this is Where the

00:35:56.860 --> 00:35:57.759
 Conflict Really Lies

00:35:57.759 --> 00:35:58.699
 with Alvin Plantinga,

00:35:58.819 --> 00:35:59.739
 where he famously

00:35:59.739 --> 00:36:00.840
 puts forward this

00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:01.159
 argument.

00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:04.460
 So, this is how the

00:36:04.460 --> 00:36:05.019
 argument goes.

00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.500
 Humans have cognitive

00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:09.420
 faculties such as

00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:10.179
 memory, perception,

00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:11.619
 intuition, introspection,

00:36:11.819 --> 00:36:13.360
 testimony, sympathy,

00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:14.819
 moral sense, etc.

00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:15.799
 You can go along the

00:36:15.799 --> 00:36:16.779
 lines, and we all

00:36:16.779 --> 00:36:18.179
 intuitively understand

00:36:18.179 --> 00:36:19.779
 our cognitive faculties

00:36:19.780 --> 00:36:20.680
 to be mostly reliable.

00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:21.960
 Right?

00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:23.560
 We believe that our

00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:25.120
 memories are able to

00:36:25.120 --> 00:36:25.780
 give us reliable

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:26.720
 information, if not

00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:27.700
 perfect information.

00:36:28.180 --> 00:36:29.300
 We believe that our

00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:31.060
 ability to perceive the

00:36:31.060 --> 00:36:32.320
 world is perceiving a

00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:32.920
 real world.

00:36:33.080 --> 00:36:34.240
 It's not an imaginary

00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:34.720
 world.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:35.200
 Right?

00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:36.400
 We make predictions

00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:37.140
 based on these.

00:36:37.580 --> 00:36:38.980
 Our intuition about

00:36:38.980 --> 00:36:40.700
 logic, mathematics,

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:41.600
 these are what we

00:36:41.600 --> 00:36:43.380
 consider to be reliable.

00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:45.120
 Our introspection about

00:36:45.120 --> 00:36:46.420
 our own mental states,

00:36:46.740 --> 00:36:47.680
 our own thoughts and

00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:48.740
 feelings, we believe is

00:36:48.739 --> 00:36:50.179
 reliable, etc.

00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:52.159
 We can learn from

00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:53.059
 testimony from other

00:36:53.059 --> 00:36:54.019
 people to teach us

00:36:54.019 --> 00:36:54.379
 things.

00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:58.179
 Now, here's where it

00:36:58.179 --> 00:36:58.759
 gets complicated.

00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:01.819
 Naturalism, which I'm

00:37:01.819 --> 00:37:02.599
 going to call N because

00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:03.359
 I didn't have space on

00:37:03.359 --> 00:37:04.619
 the slide to keep on

00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.319
 writing naturalism.

00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:08.019
 Naturalism N posits

00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:09.179
 that these faculties are

00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:11.299
 merely neurophysiological

00:37:11.299 --> 00:37:11.819
 properties.

00:37:12.839 --> 00:37:12.959
 Okay?

00:37:13.579 --> 00:37:14.979
 Now, depending on how

00:37:14.979 --> 00:37:15.739
 you make the argument

00:37:15.739 --> 00:37:16.959
 from materialism, you're

00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.480
 going to either be a

00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:20.780
 reductive or an irreductive

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:22.940
 unreductive?

00:37:23.740 --> 00:37:24.340
 Nonreductive.

00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:24.800
 That's the one.

00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:27.179
 Some prefix reductive

00:37:27.179 --> 00:37:28.780
 materialist, right?

00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:30.300
 You're going to be

00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.000
 arguing either that the

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:33.579
 mental, the cognitive

00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:34.699
 faculties are

00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:36.179
 neurophysiological

00:37:36.179 --> 00:37:38.220
 properties or that they

00:37:38.220 --> 00:37:39.320
 are neurophysiological

00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:40.539
 properties that also

00:37:40.539 --> 00:37:43.119
 unrelatedly produce a

00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.579
 mental state that has

00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:45.420
 some sort of content.

00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:47.480
 Again, there's an entire

00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:47.840
 book.

00:37:48.619 --> 00:37:49.039
 Read it.

00:37:49.259 --> 00:37:50.639
 For the time being,

00:37:51.340 --> 00:37:52.599
 naturalism posits

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.380
 faculties are merely

00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:55.259
 neurophysiological

00:37:55.259 --> 00:37:55.739
 properties.

00:37:56.179 --> 00:37:56.340
 Okay?

00:37:56.500 --> 00:37:57.000
 That's one.

00:37:58.460 --> 00:38:00.599
 Two, evolution, which

00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:02.179
 I'm calling E, does not

00:38:02.179 --> 00:38:03.480
 select for faculties that

00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:03.920
 are true.

00:38:05.019 --> 00:38:06.759
 They select for only

00:38:06.759 --> 00:38:08.340
 advantageous behaviors.

00:38:09.279 --> 00:38:09.480
 Right?

00:38:09.860 --> 00:38:11.279
 Evolution doesn't care

00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.480
 whether you think that

00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:15.519
 your mental states or

00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:16.560
 that your ability to

00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:17.360
 remember five seconds

00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.800
 ago is true.

00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:19.800
 They only care that you

00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:20.900
 don't do stuff that's

00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:21.640
 going to get you killed.

00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:23.180
 Does that make sense?

00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:24.080
 Right?

00:38:24.340 --> 00:38:25.200
 So you could believe

00:38:25.200 --> 00:38:25.519
 anything.

00:38:25.640 --> 00:38:26.400
 You could believe that

00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:27.580
 everything in the whole

00:38:27.580 --> 00:38:28.280
 world is purple.

00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:29.780
 Right?

00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:30.860
 But as long as you eat,

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:32.460
 as long as you reproduce,

00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:34.840
 as long as you survive and

00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:36.280
 are able to function,

00:38:37.060 --> 00:38:39.200
 you're going to be doing

00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:40.719
 well in life.

00:38:41.019 --> 00:38:41.219
 Okay?

00:38:41.739 --> 00:38:46.899
 This is a well-known

00:38:46.899 --> 00:38:48.279
 effect of evolution that

00:38:48.279 --> 00:38:50.179
 it only selects for

00:38:50.179 --> 00:38:51.059
 functional behavior.

00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:52.379
 It does not select for

00:38:52.379 --> 00:38:52.960
 content.

00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:53.699
 Right?

00:38:54.539 --> 00:38:56.779
 So, this is where it

00:38:56.779 --> 00:38:57.899
 gets confusing, but

00:38:57.899 --> 00:38:58.519
 follow with me.

00:38:58.899 --> 00:39:00.339
 If naturalism and

00:39:00.339 --> 00:39:01.639
 evolution are both true,

00:39:01.879 --> 00:39:03.899
 then we have good reason

00:39:03.899 --> 00:39:06.739
 to believe that our

00:39:06.739 --> 00:39:09.419
 mental faculties are not

00:39:09.419 --> 00:39:09.839
 reliable.

00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:11.419
 Because there are

00:39:11.419 --> 00:39:12.379
 neurophysiological

00:39:12.379 --> 00:39:14.379
 properties that are only

00:39:14.379 --> 00:39:16.119
 selected based on their

00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:16.579
 fitness.

00:39:16.779 --> 00:39:17.979
 They're not selected based

00:39:17.979 --> 00:39:19.939
 on their connection to

00:39:19.939 --> 00:39:20.379
 reality.

00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:21.739
 Right?

00:39:22.879 --> 00:39:24.339
 How close your

00:39:24.339 --> 00:39:25.739
 neurophysiological properties

00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:27.839
 are to a quote-unquote

00:39:27.839 --> 00:39:30.059
 truth is unrelated to how

00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:31.159
 they're going to affect

00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:33.059
 your fitness in the

00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:34.739
 evolutionary process.

00:39:35.459 --> 00:39:36.119
 That's the argument.

00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:40.259
 So, if both

00:39:40.259 --> 00:39:41.659
 naturalism and evolution

00:39:41.659 --> 00:39:42.920
 are both true, and we

00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:43.679
 have good reason to

00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.139
 believe that, to doubt

00:39:45.139 --> 00:39:46.219
 our own cognitive

00:39:46.219 --> 00:39:47.659
 faculties, then that

00:39:47.659 --> 00:39:49.000
 means that we have a

00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:50.639
 reason to doubt our

00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:51.359
 understanding that

00:39:51.359 --> 00:39:52.239
 naturalism and evolution

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:53.719
 are true, or any

00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:54.819
 proposition is true.

00:39:55.460 --> 00:39:58.299
 Therefore, if naturalism

00:39:58.299 --> 00:39:59.380
 and evolution are both

00:39:59.380 --> 00:40:00.159
 true, then we have a good

00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:00.779
 reason to believe that

00:40:00.779 --> 00:40:01.699
 they are both not true.

00:40:02.900 --> 00:40:04.039
 Does that make sense?

00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:05.219
 Sort of.

00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:06.619
 Does that make sense?

00:40:06.859 --> 00:40:08.419
 Again, this is an

00:40:08.419 --> 00:40:08.879
 argument.

00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:09.819
 Right?

00:40:10.279 --> 00:40:11.699
 So, this isn't a given.

00:40:12.319 --> 00:40:13.719
 Alvin Plantinga is arguing

00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:15.099
 that this is true.

00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:16.419
 So, if you read his book,

00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.339
 he's going to argue for the

00:40:18.339 --> 00:40:19.639
 fact that naturalism posits

00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:20.399
 neurophysiological

00:40:20.399 --> 00:40:20.919
 properties.

00:40:21.359 --> 00:40:22.099
 He's going to argue that

00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:23.279
 evolution does not select

00:40:23.279 --> 00:40:25.719
 for true cognitive

00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:27.159
 faculties, only faculties that

00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:28.099
 are advantageous

00:40:28.099 --> 00:40:28.799
 behaviorally.

00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.800
 right?

00:40:30.580 --> 00:40:32.180
 I find his arguments

00:40:32.180 --> 00:40:33.500
 persuasive.

00:40:33.500 --> 00:40:35.160
 You may not, but this is

00:40:35.160 --> 00:40:36.240
 how the argument goes.

00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:37.080
 Right?

00:40:37.300 --> 00:40:38.000
 Does that make sense to

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:38.240
 everybody?

00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:39.580
 How if evolution is both,

00:40:39.820 --> 00:40:41.300
 if naturalism and evolution

00:40:41.300 --> 00:40:43.519
 are both true, then naturalism

00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.060
 and evolution are both

00:40:45.060 --> 00:40:46.220
 false.

00:40:47.180 --> 00:40:48.600
 Does that make sense?

00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:50.200
 So, how does the theistic

00:40:50.200 --> 00:40:51.019
 evolution get in here?

00:40:51.140 --> 00:40:51.620
 Sorry, go ahead.

00:40:51.619 --> 00:40:54.400
 Before you even went on to

00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.359
 your second statement there,

00:40:56.460 --> 00:40:57.699
 it says evolution does not

00:40:57.699 --> 00:40:59.039
 select for faculties that are

00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.380
 true, only those that

00:41:00.380 --> 00:41:01.339
 produce advantageous

00:41:01.339 --> 00:41:01.779
 behaviors.

00:41:01.900 --> 00:41:02.400
 You could have stopped

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:03.059
 right there and I would

00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:03.880
 have said, oh yeah,

00:41:04.099 --> 00:41:05.380
 that's totally contradictory.

00:41:06.139 --> 00:41:06.539
 Yes.

00:41:06.779 --> 00:41:07.000
 Yeah.

00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:08.739
 But, remember, this is a

00:41:08.739 --> 00:41:09.139
 philosopher.

00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:10.440
 He can't stop there.

00:41:10.699 --> 00:41:12.480
 He's got to go, he's got to

00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.039
 have at least nine different

00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:15.000
 parts to his syllogism.

00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:16.619
 Otherwise, other philosophers

00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:17.219
 will say, hey.

00:41:17.839 --> 00:41:18.279
 Sorry, yeah.

00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:19.880
 I just wanted to, it's not

00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:21.079
 just Alvin Plantinga, right?

00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:22.099
 Like, this is a very common

00:41:22.099 --> 00:41:22.819
 old argument.

00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:23.739
 I remember C.S. Lewis

00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:25.699
 making this argument and it

00:41:25.699 --> 00:41:26.500
 comes up a lot.

00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:27.319
 I love you, Tom.

00:41:27.539 --> 00:41:28.059
 This is, okay.

00:41:28.219 --> 00:41:29.139
 Watch this, okay?

00:41:29.259 --> 00:41:29.840
 Check this out.

00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:31.819
 You're predictive.

00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:32.559
 Okay.

00:41:33.139 --> 00:41:34.440
 So, this is the basis of the

00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:35.299
 argument, right?

00:41:35.900 --> 00:41:37.119
 So, now, based on this

00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:38.059
 argument, you can argue

00:41:38.059 --> 00:41:41.340
 either naturalism is true and

00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:42.920
 evolution is false or

00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:44.039
 evolution is true and

00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:44.880
 naturalism is false.

00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:45.779
 Does that make sense?

00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:46.519
 You can't have them both

00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:47.539
 together based on this

00:41:47.539 --> 00:41:47.819
 argument.

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:49.659
 Now, since theistic

00:41:49.659 --> 00:41:52.279
 evolution assumes the

00:41:52.279 --> 00:41:53.399
 truth of evolution, right?

00:41:53.420 --> 00:41:54.239
 We already argued that.

00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:55.179
 We didn't argue that.

00:41:55.219 --> 00:41:56.059
 I just posited that.

00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:56.619
 That's the truth.

00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.179
 This argument necessitates

00:41:59.179 --> 00:42:00.359
 the fact that naturalism is

00:42:00.359 --> 00:42:00.619
 false.

00:42:00.619 --> 00:42:02.739
 Therefore, some sort of

00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:05.339
 theism, some naturalism is

00:42:05.339 --> 00:42:05.899
 not true.

00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:08.039
 Therefore, most likely theism

00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:08.440
 is true.

00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:09.799
 Does that make sense?

00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:11.639
 How evolution, the truth of

00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:12.859
 evolution could lead

00:42:12.859 --> 00:42:14.719
 philosophically to the belief

00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:16.420
 that God must exist in some

00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:17.219
 sense, right?

00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:22.839
 So, as Tom pointed out, this

00:42:22.839 --> 00:42:24.599
 is actually a formal way of

00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:25.559
 articulating C.S.

00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:27.959
 Lewis's own intuitive

00:42:27.959 --> 00:42:30.379
 disagreement with naturalistic

00:42:30.379 --> 00:42:32.279
 evolution, in which basically

00:42:32.279 --> 00:42:33.239
 he was saying that if we're

00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:34.339
 just a collection of atoms

00:42:34.339 --> 00:42:37.500
 bumping in the night, then why

00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:38.699
 should we care at all what two

00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:39.679
 atoms rubbing together think?

00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:40.899
 Right?

00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:41.879
 So, if you're arguing for

00:42:41.879 --> 00:42:43.639
 naturalistic evolution to me, in

00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:44.639
 which you're saying that I'm just

00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.079
 a collection, an interesting

00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:48.340
 collection of atoms altogether,

00:42:48.659 --> 00:42:49.380
 and you're in a different

00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:50.940
 interesting collection of atoms

00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:52.420
 altogether, his argument is,

00:42:52.539 --> 00:42:53.559
 why do I have to listen to

00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:54.059
 your atoms?

00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:55.539
 Right?

00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.860
 It undermines the bases of

00:42:58.860 --> 00:42:59.880
 rational thinking.

00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:01.159
 Okay.

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:02.840
 That's argument one.

00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:05.420
 Again, there are arguments for

00:43:05.420 --> 00:43:05.559
 it.

00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.320
 The next argument for theistic

00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.159
 evolution I'm going to present is

00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:13.000
 what I call the fine-tuning in

00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:15.000
 convergent evolution argument.

00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:21.860
 So, in evolutionary theory, there is a

00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:23.639
 phenomenon known as convergence.

00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:24.759
 What is convergence?

00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:26.880
 Well, I'll tell you.

00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.179
 Convergence is where genetically and

00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:32.659
 historically isolated populations give

00:43:32.659 --> 00:43:39.179
 rise to animals, to functions that are

00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:40.219
 very eerily similar.

00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:41.259
 Okay?

00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:43.759
 So, we can look at the macro scale and

00:43:43.759 --> 00:43:48.079
 say, we got wolves here who look very

00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:48.659
 wolf-like.

00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.379
 We have hyenas here who also are looking

00:43:52.379 --> 00:43:53.379
 pretty similar.

00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:55.739
 And we also have what is now an extinct

00:43:55.739 --> 00:44:01.119
 organism, the Tasmanian tiger, which I

00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:02.119
 think should be called the Tasmanian

00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:03.380
 wolf, but whatever.

00:44:04.319 --> 00:44:06.460
 So, you have three different groups.

00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:06.859
 Right?

00:44:06.859 --> 00:44:09.480
 And maybe you're thinking on the

00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.539
 evolutionary paradigm they are closely

00:44:11.539 --> 00:44:14.440
 related and therefore, you know, they're

00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:15.739
 just modifications of each other.

00:44:15.859 --> 00:44:17.980
 Well, in fact, if you use the genetics,

00:44:18.579 --> 00:44:20.579
 phylogenetically, which is a fancy way of

00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:24.880
 saying evolutionary relationship between

00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:27.099
 these three is actually very distant.

00:44:28.179 --> 00:44:28.460
 Okay?

00:44:28.460 --> 00:44:30.019
 They're not actually related.

00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:33.940
 Well, I mean, if you take universal

00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:35.500
 common ancestry, everything is related.

00:44:35.720 --> 00:44:35.780
 Right?

00:44:35.820 --> 00:44:36.500
 But that's not the point.

00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:38.320
 What I'm pointing out is that

00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.039
 evolutionarily they're not in the same

00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:40.360
 tree.

00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:41.460
 They're on a different branch.

00:44:41.980 --> 00:44:42.159
 Right?

00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:44.240
 But they look incredibly similar and they

00:44:44.240 --> 00:44:47.000
 do exactly the same job in their

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:47.539
 environments.

00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.480
 And their environments are not

00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:51.460
 particularly similar.

00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:53.740
 You know, the Tasmanian dude, he's

00:44:53.740 --> 00:44:56.980
 living out in Australia, which is not

00:44:56.980 --> 00:44:58.719
 known for being the same as Northwest.

00:44:59.280 --> 00:44:59.480
 Right?

00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:01.880
 I mean, I've never been to Australia.

00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:02.820
 I'm sure it's very nice.

00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:05.240
 I mean, unless you like Australia, which

00:45:05.240 --> 00:45:06.340
 Northwest is not very nice.

00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:06.800
 Anyways.

00:45:07.260 --> 00:45:08.639
 And then you have the hyena, which is

00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.240
 living in a different environment.

00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:15.840
 And so the argument is this phenomenon

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.800
 that everybody, all evolutionists, will

00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.380
 acknowledge this is something that has

00:45:20.380 --> 00:45:20.740
 happened.

00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:21.579
 Right?

00:45:21.579 --> 00:45:24.199
 It's not in controversy that these three

00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:26.960
 different species are unrelated, although

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:28.719
 they look very similar and do very similar

00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:29.179
 things.

00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:31.819
 And this isn't the only example I could

00:45:31.819 --> 00:45:31.960
 give.

00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:33.699
 I could give examples of different sort of

00:45:33.699 --> 00:45:35.119
 functions, sort of echolocation.

00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:35.980
 Right?

00:45:36.219 --> 00:45:40.579
 Echolocation is a very rare way of hunting,

00:45:41.279 --> 00:45:43.039
 but there's a whole bunch of different

00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.360
 unrelated organisms in evolutionary theory

00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:48.000
 have developed echolocation in their own

00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.480
 way, like bats and whales and not whales.

00:45:52.940 --> 00:45:53.619
 I think there's bug.

00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:54.920
 There's some kind of bug that does it, too.

00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:56.400
 What's up?

00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:58.940
 Well, no, that's not right.

00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:00.079
 I don't even know.

00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:01.500
 I don't know.

00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:02.860
 I am a biologist.

00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:03.840
 I don't even know what I'm talking about.

00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.179
 Okay.

00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.440
 So based on these observations, a theistic

00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:10.079
 evolutionary advocate will argue that

00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:15.019
 evolution isn't as random as is proposed by

00:46:15.019 --> 00:46:15.679
 materialists.

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:19.739
 And in fact, while the mechanism of

00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.339
 evolution is in one sense random because

00:46:22.339 --> 00:46:24.559
 of the mutations and the natural selection,

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:27.039
 there seems to be some sort of fine-tuning

00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:29.699
 of the whole process, some sort of

00:46:29.699 --> 00:46:31.539
 constraint on the whole process that

00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:38.519
 produces specific animal forms consistently.

00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:42.819
 And this would be very unlikely on

00:46:42.819 --> 00:46:44.239
 naturalism if it were to be true.

00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:44.919
 Right?

00:46:45.339 --> 00:46:47.679
 On naturalism, you would expect evolution to

00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.059
 be very contingent, which is another way of

00:46:50.059 --> 00:46:52.039
 saying a very random, historically

00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:55.259
 unpredictable situation.

00:46:55.359 --> 00:46:57.059
 But on convergent evolution, it seems like

00:46:57.059 --> 00:47:00.459
 no matter where you are, things, the

00:47:00.459 --> 00:47:02.179
 evolutionary process sort of gives you the

00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:04.299
 same results in a way, depending on no

00:47:04.299 --> 00:47:04.979
 matter where you go.

00:47:05.619 --> 00:47:05.819
 Right?

00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:11.600
 And so the TE advocate would argue that this

00:47:11.600 --> 00:47:15.900
 implies that evolution had us in mind, which

00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.740
 is harmonious with belief in God and it's less

00:47:18.740 --> 00:47:20.100
 likely based on theism.

00:47:22.100 --> 00:47:22.660
 Whew.

00:47:23.220 --> 00:47:23.480
 Okay.

00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:24.620
 Does everybody understand that?

00:47:25.080 --> 00:47:25.600
 Make sense?

00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:26.080
 Okay.

00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:29.820
 Let's move on to general critiques of theistic

00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:30.180
 evolution.

00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:30.239
 evolution.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:36.099
 The first of which, and again, the TE group is

00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:36.659
 very broad.

00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:37.519
 Right?

00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:40.960
 So, you know, there are people within the

00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.799
 group who are very orthodox.

00:47:43.919 --> 00:47:45.419
 There are people in the group who are not as

00:47:45.419 --> 00:47:45.960
 orthodox.

00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:49.899
 What the general critique of it is, is that it, as a

00:47:49.899 --> 00:47:52.259
 worldview, depending on how much of the

00:47:52.259 --> 00:47:55.179
 interpretations of the data and the corresponding

00:47:55.899 --> 00:47:58.239
 worldview that you accept leaks into your

00:47:58.239 --> 00:47:58.699
 theology.

00:47:59.199 --> 00:47:59.319
 Right?

00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:01.019
 So, examples of this.

00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:05.419
 TE advocates often argue that human beings

00:48:05.419 --> 00:48:07.899
 didn't originate from a single population.

00:48:09.099 --> 00:48:10.739
 Some do, some don't.

00:48:11.500 --> 00:48:13.319
 But this can undermine human uniqueness.

00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:16.479
 Another way of, another group may posit that

00:48:16.479 --> 00:48:19.379
 Adam and Eve didn't exist in any sense, which

00:48:19.379 --> 00:48:22.639
 produces theological problems in a variety of

00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:23.000
 different ways.

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.399
 It's not intractable theological problems, but

00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:29.960
 it's not, it's, it's, it does provide some

00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:30.260
 issues.

00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:30.920
 Right?

00:48:33.059 --> 00:48:36.440
 Additionally, many have challenged the idea of

00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.480
 original innocence, that human beings were made

00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:43.440
 morally good or morally innocent, which, in

00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.539
 contrast, sort of undermines the entire idea of the

00:48:47.539 --> 00:48:48.660
 doctrine of original sin.

00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:52.839
 In some ways, it would argue against a fall, which

00:48:52.839 --> 00:48:55.539
 would then give us the doctrine of original sin.

00:48:55.739 --> 00:49:00.279
 And concomitantly, you often get TE advocates that will

00:49:00.279 --> 00:49:02.399
 argue for an alternative atonement than

00:49:02.399 --> 00:49:07.960
 substitutionary atonement, which is the, the, the,

00:49:08.299 --> 00:49:11.339
 basically the gospel as understood by evangelicals.

00:49:11.339 --> 00:49:11.639
 Right?

00:49:11.759 --> 00:49:12.859
 Is substitutionary atonement.

00:49:12.860 --> 00:49:15.059
 Not that there are other atonements aren't in

00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:19.160
 activity, but in the gospel, substitutionary

00:49:19.160 --> 00:49:20.760
 atonement plays a major part.

00:49:21.180 --> 00:49:21.380
 Right?

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.780
 And then, maybe you would argue that this is an

00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:27.400
 unfair criticism of theistic evolution because

00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:29.880
 there have been different arguments for atonement in

00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:31.160
 the entire history of Christianity.

00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:32.820
 And I would argue that that's true.

00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:40.360
 Although, basically there are two major themes in

00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:42.120
 Orthodox Christianity for atonement.

00:49:42.780 --> 00:49:45.059
 In the Western side, we have substitutionary

00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:45.380
 atonement.

00:49:45.460 --> 00:49:47.880
 On the Eastern side, we have kenosis.

00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:50.200
 Am I doing that right, Tom?

00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:51.740
 Is that unrelated?

00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:52.160
 Okay.

00:49:52.300 --> 00:49:53.059
 I mean, it's similar.

00:49:53.500 --> 00:49:53.720
 Yeah.

00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:54.800
 So.

00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.460
 Ancestral sin instead of original sin.

00:49:57.980 --> 00:49:58.340
 Right.

00:49:58.740 --> 00:49:58.940
 Right.

00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:02.420
 And then the idea is not that God is here to, to

00:50:02.420 --> 00:50:07.220
 atone for moral sins, law-breaking, but to

00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:10.859
 atone for death by introducing life.

00:50:10.959 --> 00:50:12.559
 If you want to learn more about that, Athanasius.

00:50:12.859 --> 00:50:13.119
 Yes.

00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:15.599
 Can you clarify what's meant by original

00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:16.039
 innocence?

00:50:16.459 --> 00:50:20.739
 Since we wouldn't describe sin to a lion eating the

00:50:20.739 --> 00:50:22.099
 buffalo that it finds.

00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:22.839
 Yeah.

00:50:22.919 --> 00:50:26.279
 So they would argue that, that modern humans, as we

00:50:26.279 --> 00:50:27.500
 understand them, were never innocent.

00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:28.399
 Right?

00:50:28.899 --> 00:50:29.899
 Different strains of...

00:50:29.899 --> 00:50:31.099
 What does the word innocent mean?

00:50:31.099 --> 00:50:33.980
 So the word innocent means that they, they had

00:50:33.980 --> 00:50:37.839
 not sinned until the fall, basically.

00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:42.159
 So there were, they did nothing morally evil until

00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:44.880
 the fall occurred, which introduced in original

00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:45.199
 sin.

00:50:45.619 --> 00:50:45.819
 Right?

00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:51.039
 So in an evolutionary and some assessments of, of

00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:53.699
 the evolution of humanity, you're going to get

00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:59.559
 modern humans, you know, killing and other

00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:02.199
 untoward things, other human beings.

00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:07.239
 And that is an important or essential part in the

00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.099
 history of the evolution of humanity.

00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:09.639
 Right?

00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:13.900
 And so depending on how, where you place humanity,

00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:15.019
 right?

00:51:15.099 --> 00:51:17.480
 Because that is an open question in evolutionary

00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:17.940
 arguments.

00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:20.739
 At what point do hominins become modern humans?

00:51:20.779 --> 00:51:22.039
 And there's a whole debate over that.

00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:23.079
 And it's not very clear.

00:51:23.980 --> 00:51:26.539
 But depending on where you fall on that, on the

00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:28.559
 theistic evolutionary side, that's going to depend,

00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:30.659
 determine whether or not you believe that there was

00:51:30.659 --> 00:51:31.799
 such a thing as original innocence.

00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.340
 Whether human beings were ever made morally

00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:36.940
 innocent.

00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:38.699
 Does that make sense?

00:51:39.539 --> 00:51:39.759
 Right?

00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:46.000
 So does that exclude sin as a possibility?

00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:48.639
 Or does that just mean that we were always pretty

00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:49.139
 messed up?

00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:50.179
 Yeah.

00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:52.579
 So that would argue that we were pretty messed up

00:51:52.579 --> 00:51:52.940
 from the beginning.

00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:53.659
 Right?

00:51:53.659 --> 00:51:56.559
 That's the kind of argument I'm talking about here.

00:51:57.099 --> 00:51:59.139
 Now there are other kinds of arguments that say

00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:02.000
 in some sense sin had been influencing the evolutionary

00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:02.519
 process.

00:52:02.819 --> 00:52:06.099
 And so the story of Genesis is really an argument about

00:52:06.099 --> 00:52:11.119
 how that sin in the process of nature affected human

00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:13.259
 beings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:52:13.379 --> 00:52:13.500
 Right?

00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:18.219
 Is there any sense where like, oh yeah, the devil, he came in

00:52:18.219 --> 00:52:19.159
 and messed things up?

00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.059
 That's a very common position.

00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:23.519
 Well, I wouldn't say very common, but it is a common

00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:23.820
 position.

00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:27.360
 But that's not even restricted to theistic evolutionists,

00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:27.960
 actually.

00:52:28.539 --> 00:52:31.719
 That's also a creationist position, depending on the group,

00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:35.659
 who argue that, so for instance, if you're an old earth

00:52:35.659 --> 00:52:39.659
 creationist, you're going to be more open to the idea of the

00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:44.559
 devil influencing the history of the world in which you get

00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.679
 extinctions and et cetera.

00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:47.359
 Right?

00:52:48.460 --> 00:52:51.079
 Again, depending on what kind of old earth creationist you are.

00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:57.859
 This next one, potentially enhancing the problem of evil,

00:52:57.940 --> 00:53:00.879
 depending on, again, the TE argument you make.

00:53:01.319 --> 00:53:04.799
 On some formulations of TE, the world as it is now is the way

00:53:04.799 --> 00:53:05.719
 it should be.

00:53:06.980 --> 00:53:07.359
 Right?

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:12.700
 There has been no cataclysmic sort of fall.

00:53:13.539 --> 00:53:17.160
 The evolutionary process as it works today, as we imagine it

00:53:17.160 --> 00:53:20.039
 working backwards in time, is the way that God meant it to be.

00:53:20.660 --> 00:53:20.780
 Right?

00:53:21.140 --> 00:53:25.820
 So that implies that natural evil, and possibly even moral evil of

00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:30.180
 human beings, depending on whether you believe there was original

00:53:30.180 --> 00:53:33.640
 innocence in human beings, are part of God's good creation.

00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:34.660
 Right?

00:53:34.659 --> 00:53:39.460
 Now, a TE advocate would say, well, theistic evolution suffers from the

00:53:39.460 --> 00:53:40.940
 problem of evil like everybody else does.

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.719
 And they suffer in many of the same ways as old earth creationism does.

00:53:45.859 --> 00:53:49.960
 But in this specific way, there is a difference, because many in the

00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:55.659
 creationist camps would argue that in some sense the fall of human beings,

00:53:56.219 --> 00:54:00.719
 if not the fall of creation, depending on how you understand that, has affected the

00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:01.719
 way that nature works.

00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:06.899
 And so if you were to study nature now and extrapolate backwards, you would get a bad

00:54:06.899 --> 00:54:07.859
 picture of history.

00:54:08.059 --> 00:54:13.179
 As opposed to the TE argument, often, which says, no, we get an accurate picture of the

00:54:13.179 --> 00:54:14.039
 way history was.

00:54:14.359 --> 00:54:17.679
 That's just good, in a sense.

00:54:18.019 --> 00:54:18.639
 Does that make sense?

00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:28.940
 And so now, this leads to very interesting and possibly problematic views of atonement.

00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:34.019
 So if we're talking about alternate views of atonement, based on this understanding of

00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:41.519
 the problem of evil, this version of atonement imagines that the crucifixion of Jesus in God

00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:48.239
 is God, in some sense, taking responsibility for his creation by entering into our suffering.

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:49.119
 Right?

00:54:49.179 --> 00:54:53.860
 He says, God's good creation creates this suffering in this TE argument.

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.219
 And in the crucifixion, God is not staying separate.

00:54:58.340 --> 00:55:03.340
 He is entering into the suffering of creation as a way of taking responsibility for his creative

00:55:03.340 --> 00:55:07.199
 act, which I think can lead to a variety of theological problems.

00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:09.900
 Yeah, lay it on me.

00:55:09.900 --> 00:55:16.760
 I know we've got to move on, but just real quick, would this idea that the nature of

00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:21.579
 the way it should be, which includes natural or moral evil, being good, does that lend itself

00:55:21.579 --> 00:55:23.480
 to sort of like moral progressivism?

00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:28.619
 Like, well, we just need to keep getting better and better until, you know, we fix everything.

00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:33.720
 Yeah, I mean, that is one way of doing it, is one way of understanding it.

00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:39.720
 The problem is, and I think that's a legitimate argument, the problem is, how do we score

00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:42.780
 that view with the view of scripture?

00:55:43.460 --> 00:55:43.780
 Right?

00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:44.480
 Right.

00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:45.280
 Yeah.

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:49.000
 So, I mean, that's my point about it being a theological problem.

00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.340
 Right.

00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:53.099
 Because, I mean, many of the TE arguments make logical sense and philosophical sense.

00:55:53.180 --> 00:55:57.200
 The problem is, if we're thinking about the biblical theology that we get based on our

00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:05.759
 last class with Nick and my good friend Tyler, how do you get those streams, how do you get

00:56:05.759 --> 00:56:10.000
 those storylines, those narratives in the Bible, if that's what's going on?

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:10.379
 Right.

00:56:11.739 --> 00:56:12.179
 Okay.

00:56:12.179 --> 00:56:12.259
 Okay.

00:56:13.739 --> 00:56:18.419
 I'm going to get to the arguments of intelligent design, and I'm going to fly through them,

00:56:18.759 --> 00:56:21.099
 because we can't leave the building after 1025.

00:56:22.980 --> 00:56:23.419
 Okay.

00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:26.139
 Basics of ID arguments.

00:56:26.279 --> 00:56:31.059
 So, in the same sense that I outlined how TE arguments go, I'm going to argue how ID

00:56:31.059 --> 00:56:31.599
 arguments go.

00:56:32.619 --> 00:56:34.659
 ID arguments can come in two streams.

00:56:35.139 --> 00:56:37.659
 And, again, they're scientific arguments, as they would construe them.

00:56:37.659 --> 00:56:43.000
 So, they're going to use scientific evidence to posit design in nature in two different

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:43.339
 ways.

00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:44.960
 They can use negative arguments.

00:56:45.839 --> 00:56:51.500
 Negative arguments means that they seek to make naturalistic explanations of scientific

00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:56.779
 data, the data output that we talked about earlier, make those naturalistic interpretations

00:56:56.779 --> 00:57:01.139
 less likely, and on average make theism more likely.

00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:07.500
 Positive arguments that provide empirical evidence that suggests that design is more likely.

00:57:07.659 --> 00:57:09.139
 You see how that works?

00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:11.579
 There's sort of mirror images of each other, but there is a difference.

00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:12.219
 Right?

00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:21.539
 To say, this naturalistic mechanism is not likely, is not the same as saying, this phenomenon that

00:57:21.539 --> 00:57:25.259
 we see gives me evidence of design.

00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:26.480
 Does that make sense?

00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:29.259
 I think there's a place for both of them.

00:57:29.719 --> 00:57:32.299
 I think they both have their own potential flaws.

00:57:32.300 --> 00:57:39.039
 But, either form of this argument is going to be using the inductive interpretative scientific

00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:43.039
 method in history called inference to the best explanation.

00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:43.900
 Right?

00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:48.780
 So, in the historical sciences, you have a phenomenon that you're trying to explain.

00:57:49.100 --> 00:57:53.980
 What you do is you fan out a whole variety of different hypotheses of what could explain

00:57:53.980 --> 00:57:54.380
 this.

00:57:54.380 --> 00:57:59.760
 And, inference to the best explanation is the interpretative method in which you say, how

00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:01.460
 do you decide between these different hypotheses?

00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:02.519
 Right?

00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:10.740
 And so, ID arguments trade on this form of reasoning to argue that, given a variety of hypotheses

00:58:10.740 --> 00:58:15.300
 for a specific phenomenon, the inference to the best explanation is going to give us

00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:17.220
 some sort of design.

00:58:17.460 --> 00:58:18.579
 Some sort of intelligent agency.

00:58:18.579 --> 00:58:27.880
 So, I'm not going to give you negative arguments, because I think that they have their own issues

00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:29.840
 that are, and they're less interesting.

00:58:32.319 --> 00:58:33.880
 So, maybe two positive arguments.

00:58:34.279 --> 00:58:37.860
 I'm going to focus on two arguments that are often used.

00:58:37.940 --> 00:58:41.059
 These are sort of the bread and butter, you might say, of the ID position.

00:58:41.980 --> 00:58:47.139
 And these different arguments can actually be applied to different fields in different ways.

00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:52.279
 So, I'm going to be focusing on the biochemistry side of things, because that's what I do, or

00:58:52.279 --> 00:58:53.920
 that's what I've done, or, I don't know.

00:58:54.279 --> 00:58:56.259
 That's not who I am, but, you know, you get my point.

00:58:56.779 --> 00:58:57.599
 I'm a biochemist.

00:58:57.940 --> 00:58:58.980
 I guess I am a biochemist.

00:58:59.219 --> 00:59:01.059
 What am I, what am I, I'm not fooling myself.

00:59:01.500 --> 00:59:01.699
 Okay.

00:59:02.379 --> 00:59:07.299
 So, the first argument is going to be complex specified information in DNA.

00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:08.400
 Okay.

00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:14.099
 So, what are we talking about when we say complex specified information?

00:59:14.099 --> 00:59:19.159
 Well, according to information theory, there are two components that can modify what we

00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:22.219
 call information and give it different properties.

00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:23.059
 Okay.

00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:30.420
 These two, as you might guess, are complexity, which describes the improbability of a configuration

00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:31.739
 or sequence of characters.

00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:38.500
 Specificity, which is a configuration fitting to an independent pattern that conveys meaning.

00:59:38.500 --> 00:59:38.900
 Okay.

00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:43.559
 You can have a complex information that's not specific.

00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:46.460
 You can have specific information that's not complex.

00:59:46.739 --> 00:59:49.900
 And you can also have complex specified information.

00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:50.860
 Okay.

00:59:51.519 --> 00:59:52.599
 What does that look like?

00:59:53.679 --> 00:59:55.699
 This is very complex.

00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:58.940
 In this understanding of complex.

00:59:59.579 --> 00:59:59.840
 Okay.

00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:03.940
 I just literally took my keyboard and went, okay.

01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:06.600
 But, so you say it's random.

01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:10.600
 Complexity and randomness are not in opposition.

01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:11.720
 Right.

01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:18.240
 When we say complexity, we mean the likelihood, if we're doing probabilities, the likelihood of

01:00:18.240 --> 01:00:20.940
 this sequence of characters is very, very low.

01:00:21.160 --> 01:00:22.120
 It's very improbable.

01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:23.200
 Right.

01:00:23.700 --> 01:00:25.579
 Because how many letters are other than the alphabet?

01:00:27.720 --> 01:00:28.600
 I'm really asking.

01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:29.440
 I totally forget.

01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:29.779
 26.

01:00:30.019 --> 01:00:30.139
 Okay.

01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:31.219
 Okay.

01:00:31.579 --> 01:00:34.699
 How many sections are there in the sequence?

01:00:34.860 --> 01:00:36.139
 We got, you know, I'm not going to do the math.

01:00:36.219 --> 01:00:42.779
 But anyways, for every position of here, there's a, the likelihood is 1 to the 26 that you're

01:00:42.779 --> 01:00:45.920
 going to get this one compounded across the section.

01:00:46.019 --> 01:00:46.900
 It's very improbable.

01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:51.659
 It's the same thing as looking at a giant pile of rocks and saying the likelihood that they

01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:56.659
 landed in exactly that position is very low.

01:00:57.299 --> 01:00:57.619
 Right.

01:00:57.619 --> 01:00:58.219
 Right.

01:00:58.219 --> 01:01:03.980
 You couldn't, probability wise, you couldn't place them in that order to try to get that

01:01:03.980 --> 01:01:04.440
 configuration.

01:01:05.059 --> 01:01:05.259
 Right.

01:01:05.339 --> 01:01:07.059
 It's just astronomically hard to do.

01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:11.940
 The next example is specified information.

01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:14.500
 This means something to us.

01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:15.339
 Right.

01:01:15.799 --> 01:01:16.059
 Two.

01:01:16.259 --> 01:01:22.400
 It corresponds to a preexisting standard that we can apply to.

01:01:22.819 --> 01:01:23.039
 Right.

01:01:23.359 --> 01:01:23.759
 Two.

01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:24.620
 We know it's a word.

01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:25.420
 It means something.

01:01:26.040 --> 01:01:26.200
 Right.

01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:27.280
 Two.

01:01:27.680 --> 01:01:28.740
 I'm not going to describe it.

01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:29.940
 Anyways, you guys get it.

01:01:30.520 --> 01:01:30.720
 Two.

01:01:30.900 --> 01:01:32.520
 But it's specified, but it's not complex.

01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:33.020
 Right.

01:01:33.140 --> 01:01:38.620
 The, the likelihood of a T being next to an O are actually not that hard given randomness.

01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:39.120
 Right.

01:01:39.200 --> 01:01:42.600
 You're just kind of like, you know, if you're, I don't know if you've ever been bored at

01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:45.839
 the computer trying to write and you just do this, you're going to get T twos.

01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:47.259
 You're going to get thes.

01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:48.599
 You're going to get wees.

01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:49.239
 Right.

01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:57.079
 Very short sequences that correspond to what we would call a separate thing.

01:01:57.299 --> 01:01:57.399
 Right.

01:01:57.819 --> 01:02:05.339
 Now, complex specified information is information that is both complex and specified.

01:02:05.739 --> 01:02:05.939
 Right.

01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:09.739
 It's very unlikely to get this sequence in a row if you're just playing on your computer.

01:02:10.019 --> 01:02:14.739
 And also, if you see this sequence in a row, it means something to you.

01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:15.799
 Right.

01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:15.880
 Right.

01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:19.560
 It is not just random stuff in a row.

01:02:19.740 --> 01:02:21.860
 You're like, oh, I get information from that.

01:02:22.060 --> 01:02:22.240
 Right.

01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:24.080
 So how does this go into ID?

01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:29.760
 When information is both complex and specified, it is universally the product of intelligence.

01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:38.300
 Complex specified information does not occur under this understanding from random processes.

01:02:38.720 --> 01:02:42.980
 At the very least, at the base, you're going to find intelligence as the, as the result of it.

01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:54.380
 So DNA, this argument goes, contains complex specified information in the form of nucleotide triplets that serve to represent amino acids and protein coding sequences.

01:02:55.019 --> 01:02:55.519
 Right.

01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:57.159
 And this isn't an analogy.

01:02:57.659 --> 01:02:59.019
 This is actually true.

01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.820
 The triplets, the sequences in DNA form triplets.

01:03:02.940 --> 01:03:06.940
 And these triplets have no physiological connection to each other.

01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:16.139
 There's no necessary reason why these three should be next to each other or why the chemistry of these three makes a difference.

01:03:16.139 --> 01:03:16.359
 Right.

01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:18.339
 So the sequence is, is complex.

01:03:19.179 --> 01:03:19.480
 Right.

01:03:19.599 --> 01:03:26.139
 And it's specified because these specific nucleotides next to each other mean glutamine.

01:03:27.099 --> 01:03:27.579
 Right.

01:03:27.579 --> 01:03:32.819
 So based on this argument, therefore, inferring to the best explanation.

01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:33.159
 Right.

01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:34.719
 That's the way that ID arguments work.

01:03:35.179 --> 01:03:43.920
 Inferring to the best explanation, DNA originates from intelligent agency because given hypotheses, different hypotheses for the origin of DNA.

01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:50.720
 The likelihood of there being complex specified information outside of intelligence is low.

01:03:51.680 --> 01:03:56.240
 But the existence of complex specified information on intelligence is very high.

01:03:57.340 --> 01:04:02.480
 So if you're going to choose between them, intelligence design, intelligence is the best explanation.

01:04:03.240 --> 01:04:03.360
 Right.

01:04:04.460 --> 01:04:05.119
 What's that I hear?

01:04:05.659 --> 01:04:06.420
 Yes.

01:04:06.420 --> 01:04:09.039
 This does reject methodological naturalism.

01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:10.240
 Right.

01:04:11.619 --> 01:04:16.800
 If you're on methodological naturalism, intelligent agency is not a possibility.

01:04:17.659 --> 01:04:19.180
 Not a possible hypothesis.

01:04:19.680 --> 01:04:29.519
 So now among the non-intelligent group, you're going to have to choose between those options about what's the most likely hypothesis.

01:04:30.079 --> 01:04:30.280
 Right.

01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:37.740
 But if we understood, remember from section one or class one, methodological naturalism is not necessary to science.

01:04:38.580 --> 01:04:45.500
 So if you reject that assertion and include intelligent agency into the possible hypotheses, that is the best explanation.

01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:46.480
 Okay.

01:04:48.460 --> 01:04:49.180
 Okay.

01:04:49.940 --> 01:04:54.640
 Irreducible complexity of a biochemical, biomechanical machine, I should say.

01:04:55.019 --> 01:04:56.680
 So what is irreducible complexity?

01:04:56.679 --> 01:04:57.279
 Okay.

01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:08.719
 The way to understand irreducible complexity is it's a quality in a system where that system is dependent on multiple independent parts that produce a single function.

01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:13.980
 Where each part has no function separate from the parts in the whole.

01:05:14.799 --> 01:05:14.960
 Okay.

01:05:15.339 --> 01:05:17.359
 Classic example is the mousetrap.

01:05:18.139 --> 01:05:23.940
 I know it's old and everybody does it, but it's a good example just to get our heads around the idea.

01:05:24.319 --> 01:05:24.519
 Right.

01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:32.420
 Each of these different components together is necessary for the mousetrap to do its single function, which is, unfortunately, to trap the mouse.

01:05:32.900 --> 01:05:34.780
 Or fortunately, depending if you have a mouse problem.

01:05:34.900 --> 01:05:37.719
 I lived in a house with a mouse problem.

01:05:38.380 --> 01:05:43.960
 We never used mousetraps, but at a certain point you start to be like, okay, they ate my lazy boy chair.

01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:47.079
 I'm getting close to throwing mousetraps everywhere.

01:05:47.079 --> 01:06:01.519
 Anyways, so this piece right here is meant to release once the cheese is disturbed, which is going to release this piece, which is going to go forward because of the spring, which is then attached to the base.

01:06:02.460 --> 01:06:10.860
 And every one of these parts is necessary for the mousetrap to do its function, but separately they don't do anything by themselves.

01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:11.260
 Okay.

01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:16.260
 So, how is this an argument for ID?

01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:23.160
 There are examples of irreducibly complex systems in biology by argument, such as multiprotein complexes.

01:06:23.340 --> 01:06:25.519
 So, for instance, you've got your ATP synthase.

01:06:26.300 --> 01:06:26.599
 Right?

01:06:27.019 --> 01:06:28.220
 Everybody knows what that is.

01:06:28.579 --> 01:06:28.920
 Right?

01:06:29.019 --> 01:06:29.260
 Of course.

01:06:29.260 --> 01:06:39.920
 No, but ATP synthase is a motor that when stimulated by protons moving across a gradient, biologists, you know what I'm talking about.

01:06:41.040 --> 01:06:45.920
 Basically, it spins and it can convert low energy molecules into high energy molecules.

01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:50.620
 And these high energy molecules are what is necessary for biology to happen.

01:06:50.940 --> 01:06:51.180
 Right?

01:06:51.240 --> 01:06:57.500
 Because we're very unlikely, cells are very unlikely states of entropy and you need high energy to get them from.

01:06:57.500 --> 01:06:59.760
 Anyways, I'm going through too much information here.

01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:01.780
 But anyways, it's a very complex machine.

01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:03.820
 Each of these different parts does its own thing.

01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:09.980
 Separate from the machine, separate from the whole, these different parts don't do anything.

01:07:10.699 --> 01:07:10.840
 Right?

01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:15.920
 They don't produce a function such as converting something from low energy to high energy.

01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:16.800
 Right?

01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:20.159
 So, another example is the famous flagellum.

01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:24.980
 It's a motor, spins the thing to let the bacteria move along.

01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:25.599
 Okay?

01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:27.099
 I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on that.

01:07:27.500 --> 01:07:28.800
 Because it's not necessary for the argument.

01:07:29.559 --> 01:07:38.320
 All that needs to be true for the argument to be true is that each of these different components are necessary altogether to produce a function.

01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:43.239
 And without one of these different components, the function would not occur in any sense.

01:07:44.980 --> 01:07:45.239
 Okay.

01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:52.439
 Irradiably complex systems are impossible to produce in a step-by-step Darwinian mechanism.

01:07:52.859 --> 01:07:58.279
 As each component in the right order are all necessary to function, but they have no independent function.

01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:08.200
 So, if you imagine the Darwinian mechanism as normally understood, each step in the mutation selection system is selecting for function.

01:08:09.200 --> 01:08:09.620
 Right?

01:08:09.860 --> 01:08:11.560
 That's what selection is separating.

01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:19.199
 But you cannot produce a step-by-step machine that only functions when all the steps are together.

01:08:20.059 --> 01:08:20.800
 Does that make sense?

01:08:21.739 --> 01:08:31.079
 So, to step-by-step add each part to the system, you need to have foresight that the end product is going to be functionally helpful.

01:08:31.079 --> 01:08:39.059
 But natural selection is unguided, does not have that foresight, and therefore cannot produce irreducibly complex systems.

01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:39.779
 Okay?

01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:48.600
 Therefore, intelligence agents, but we know that intelligence agents are capable of producing irreducibly complex systems.

01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:50.840
 We invented the mousetrap.

01:08:51.380 --> 01:08:51.640
 Right?

01:08:51.640 --> 01:08:57.160
 It's not like we were sitting around, and we had all these different parts, and we're like, oh, you know.

01:08:57.579 --> 01:08:57.840
 No.

01:08:57.960 --> 01:09:05.220
 We knew when we put together the mousetrap, not us specifically, but human beings, intelligent agents knew what they were trying to produce.

01:09:06.180 --> 01:09:11.600
 Therefore, inferring to the best explanation, irreducibly complex systems are the result of intelligent agency.

01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:15.840
 Again, spread out the hypotheses, pick the one that makes the most sense.

01:09:17.380 --> 01:09:19.360
 That's the idea for an intelligent design argument.

01:09:19.360 --> 01:09:19.840
 Okay.

01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:22.680
 Moving on to general critiques.

01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:24.960
 I'm flying through them.

01:09:25.239 --> 01:09:30.619
 I know, I'm sure we all could think of objections to any different parts of all these different arguments.

01:09:30.900 --> 01:09:34.360
 I'm trying to put forward the arguments as stated.

01:09:35.720 --> 01:09:41.100
 So, one of the general critiques of intelligent design is the God of the gaps fallacy,

01:09:41.619 --> 01:09:48.020
 which essentially states that when we don't know what happened, we just insert God into the system,

01:09:48.020 --> 01:09:53.700
 and that is the best explanation at that point because all the other explanations are very bad.

01:09:54.240 --> 01:09:54.440
 Right?

01:09:55.560 --> 01:09:59.800
 And this is actually, this criticism is valid when the gap is due to ignorance.

01:10:00.040 --> 01:10:05.580
 However, the argument goes, there are gaps that are not due to ignorance.

01:10:07.060 --> 01:10:07.460
 Potentially.

01:10:07.460 --> 01:10:08.060
 Potentially.

01:10:08.060 --> 01:10:08.739
 Or are there.

01:10:09.260 --> 01:10:10.420
 Are all gaps due to ignorance.

01:10:12.340 --> 01:10:17.399
 Second, tension in creationism should be floating in your mind when I ask you that question, right?

01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:20.260
 Whether we decide whether there's a gap of ignorance or not.

01:10:20.260 --> 01:10:24.119
 Second, we got bad theology.

01:10:24.940 --> 01:10:25.079
 Okay?

01:10:25.300 --> 01:10:28.720
 This criticism comes in many different forms.

01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:34.220
 One form says that by arguing for the apparent design of different features of nature,

01:10:34.640 --> 01:10:41.140
 ID proponents are actually creating a dichotomy between that which God has created and that which he has not created.

01:10:41.699 --> 01:10:41.980
 Right?

01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:45.360
 And as Christians, we believe that God has created everything.

01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:51.319
 So this creates sort of a bad dichotomy in theology for the activity of God.

01:10:52.420 --> 01:10:58.059
 Another critique is to imply that God did not create a world that was sufficient for his purposes.

01:10:58.960 --> 01:11:00.119
 God needed to intervene.

01:11:00.420 --> 01:11:10.639
 And doesn't that mean that God was an ineffective creator if he has to intervene in his creation to institute a change that he wants?

01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:12.299
 Couldn't he have just front-loaded everything?

01:11:12.819 --> 01:11:14.199
 Isn't he powerful enough to do that?

01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:25.639
 And finally, this is actually sort of a heavy philosophical argument.

01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:28.319
 So if you're into that kind of thing, get ready.

01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:37.179
 So there's an argument that ID assumes the mechanistic nature of the modern view of the universe.

01:11:37.180 --> 01:11:47.420
 And therefore, by God creating in the way that ID proponents argue, that makes God into a too-imminent anthropomorphic sort of deity.

01:11:49.060 --> 01:11:52.220
 If that doesn't make any sense to you, it's probably because you're not Catholic.

01:11:52.840 --> 01:11:52.960
 Okay.

01:11:53.360 --> 01:11:55.619
 As opposed to transcendent and other?

01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.340
 As opposed to, yes, transcendent, other.

01:11:58.340 --> 01:12:06.779
 This argument is usually put forward by classical theists who argue that God is not imminent in the way that we are imminent.

01:12:07.319 --> 01:12:09.800
 In the sense that he doesn't work the way that we work.

01:12:10.460 --> 01:12:16.000
 To impose ideas on God based on our own activity is to anthropomorphize God.

01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:17.000
 Okay.

01:12:20.380 --> 01:12:20.939
 Okay.

01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:22.739
 Summing up.

01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:23.699
 We got through it.

01:12:23.819 --> 01:12:25.520
 Technically, almost 15 minutes over.

01:12:26.420 --> 01:12:31.140
 So, how does second tension in creationism help us understand these different views?

01:12:31.859 --> 01:12:32.119
 Right?

01:12:32.119 --> 01:12:37.319
 If you're a providential creationist, they're not going to find any ID arguments convincing.

01:12:37.519 --> 01:12:43.840
 Because a priori, meaning before the fact, God is asserted to work through secondary causation.

01:12:44.859 --> 01:12:51.039
 Based on this view, you're not going to find any gaps that are not due to ignorance.

01:12:51.979 --> 01:12:52.180
 Right?

01:12:52.180 --> 01:13:00.180
 The other kind of gap we could talk about would be a gap due to the nature of the cause.

01:13:00.860 --> 01:13:00.940
 Right?

01:13:00.980 --> 01:13:02.860
 Sort of a gap between water and wine.

01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:05.039
 We know water doesn't turn into wine.

01:13:05.659 --> 01:13:05.860
 Right?

01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:11.500
 There's a gap due to the nature of the substance and the activity that it produces.

01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:16.300
 And so, to infer intelligent agency there is legitimate.

01:13:16.460 --> 01:13:20.740
 But in creation, a providential creationist is to say there is no gaps due to the nature.

01:13:20.739 --> 01:13:25.399
 There is a secondary causation that can cause everything.

01:13:25.519 --> 01:13:27.779
 Because God did use secondary causation to cause everything.

01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:28.739
 Does that make sense?

01:13:29.519 --> 01:13:29.679
 Okay.

01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:32.760
 A designing creationist is going to be more comfortable with ID.

01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:34.479
 Surprisingly.

01:13:35.559 --> 01:13:36.420
 I mean, not surprisingly.

01:13:37.519 --> 01:13:43.439
 And perhaps not feel the need to take what they would consider potential theological risks of TE.

01:13:44.099 --> 01:13:44.340
 Right?

01:13:44.380 --> 01:13:49.739
 If I'm comfortable with God doing primary causation in history,

01:13:49.739 --> 01:13:56.800
 I am not wedded to the specific interpretations of the data that is being produced.

01:13:56.800 --> 01:14:01.119
 Therefore, I can criticize the interpretation, put forward my own interpretation,

01:14:01.300 --> 01:14:09.039
 and that keeps me safe from these potentially theological problems.

01:14:09.519 --> 01:14:09.599
 Right?

01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:16.240
 You can imagine this actually makes dialogue between ID and TE advocates very difficult.

01:14:16.880 --> 01:14:17.079
 Right?

01:14:17.480 --> 01:14:18.980
 This second tension.

01:14:19.700 --> 01:14:20.100
 Right?

01:14:20.360 --> 01:14:26.740
 Because you're going to have an ID person arguing scientifically, no, here is a gap due to nature.

01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.120
 And you're going to have a TE person arguing, there are no such things as gaps due to nature.

01:14:30.660 --> 01:14:31.020
 Right?

01:14:31.020 --> 01:14:31.060
 Right?

01:14:32.200 --> 01:14:39.140
 So, hopefully after this, no matter where you are on either position,

01:14:39.260 --> 01:14:43.300
 you can at least understand how a Christian can come to this position,

01:14:43.860 --> 01:14:45.080
 why they come to this position,

01:14:45.160 --> 01:14:47.840
 and maybe argue for your position based on their own assumptions,

01:14:48.320 --> 01:14:50.540
 and try to convince them on that way,

01:14:50.580 --> 01:14:54.320
 as opposed to producing an argument based on your own assumptions,

01:14:54.580 --> 01:14:56.540
 which is probably not going to get anywhere.

01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:57.500
 Does that make sense?

01:14:57.500 --> 01:14:57.899
 Okay.

01:14:59.020 --> 01:15:00.399
 That was the goal of the whole class.

01:15:01.119 --> 01:15:01.380
 Okay.

01:15:02.119 --> 01:15:02.600
 Thank you.

01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:03.100
 That's it.

01:15:06.260 --> 01:15:06.659
 Alright.

01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:08.739
 Questions afterwards.

01:15:08.859 --> 01:15:10.260
 This is actually already over time.

01:15:10.760 --> 01:15:12.979
 But if you have a question, I'll answer it in the next five minutes.

01:15:13.420 --> 01:15:19.819
 Can I just reiterate, you need to go, leave in a car, do that now.

01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:20.300
 Yes.

01:15:20.819 --> 01:15:23.579
 Yes, because you have ten minutes to leave before the run starts.

01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:26.119
 Really, you should be leaving now to get out in time.

01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:28.460
 Leave now, as opposed to the station of second service.

01:15:28.899 --> 01:15:29.039
 Right.

01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:29.579
 That's right.

01:15:29.800 --> 01:15:29.920
 Yeah.

01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:31.399
 I'm saying to the second service, we're good.

01:15:31.659 --> 01:15:32.399
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:32.579
 Yeah.

01:15:32.899 --> 01:15:36.279
 Or if you want to hang around until 1115.

01:15:36.599 --> 01:15:37.619
 No, I just want to make sure.

01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:38.220
 See you, Tom.

01:15:38.539 --> 01:15:39.559
 Second service is good.

01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:40.819
 I was waiting to have a question.

01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:42.000
 Oh, you have a question.

01:15:42.099 --> 01:15:42.479
 Lay it on me.

01:15:42.519 --> 01:15:45.340
 I was going to ask about the providential creationists.

01:15:45.659 --> 01:15:45.779
 Yeah.

01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:49.119
 So, how are they materially or substantially different from deists?

01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:54.760
 If they think that God just set everything up from the beginning and everything is secondary

01:15:54.760 --> 01:16:00.659
 and that he doesn't interfere, he doesn't come in in a personal, imminent way, to me,

01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:01.819
 that's deism, right?

01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:02.760
 I mean, isn't that...

01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:07.380
 So, yeah, it depends on how you're going to argue for that.

01:16:07.940 --> 01:16:15.380
 Because some would argue that God, in his sustaining of nature, that is activity, right?

01:16:15.460 --> 01:16:20.820
 God is, through his will, sustaining the natural properties of these different things.

01:16:21.220 --> 01:16:25.780
 And therefore, their activity is ultimately a result of God's activity.

01:16:25.779 --> 01:16:28.939
 And to say that God is hands-off is not true.

01:16:29.059 --> 01:16:30.039
 He has to be hands-on.

01:16:30.099 --> 01:16:31.039
 Otherwise, everything falls apart.

01:16:31.219 --> 01:16:31.479
 I see.

01:16:31.759 --> 01:16:31.979
 Okay.

01:16:34.659 --> 01:16:36.779
 The other thing there is...

01:16:37.559 --> 01:16:44.899
 The providential creationists are just saying, in creation, God is just working through secondary causes.

01:16:45.300 --> 01:16:49.539
 He only steps in and does the miracle thing at theologically opportune times.

01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:51.800
 So, they're not being full-on deists.

01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:57.140
 You can think of it kind of as deists about the process of biological creation.

01:16:57.380 --> 01:16:57.480
 Okay.

01:16:58.159 --> 01:17:03.460
 And some would be comfortable with that assessment, being called deists for creation.

01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:07.539
 Others would be very... would be rankled, if you call them a deist on creation.

01:17:07.860 --> 01:17:08.900
 So, there is difference.

01:17:09.360 --> 01:17:11.020
 There are some who are like, oh, yeah, for sure.

01:17:11.340 --> 01:17:14.739
 I'm a deist, essentially, until it comes into history, right?

01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:16.480
 Yeah.

01:17:17.360 --> 01:17:18.199
 Any other questions?

01:17:18.279 --> 01:17:18.680
 Lay it on me.

01:17:18.680 --> 01:17:26.579
 Maybe this is a sticking point about the imminent versus transcendent argument.

01:17:26.740 --> 01:17:29.900
 And I know that's more of a theological and philosophical thing.

01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:30.440
 Oh, yeah.

01:17:30.900 --> 01:17:31.600
 Doesn't matter.

01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:32.700
 Doesn't mean it's not important.

01:17:32.840 --> 01:17:33.360
 Well, sure.

01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:38.560
 And maybe I just need to do more background, not research on that whole debate.

01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:49.860
 But doesn't the dual divine human nature of Jesus sort of help us with that supposed dichotomy?

01:17:50.039 --> 01:17:54.260
 Like, that God is both imminent and transcendent?

01:17:54.900 --> 01:17:55.100
 Yeah.

01:17:55.220 --> 01:18:00.080
 But they would argue, if you're a classical theist, that that is restricted to history.

01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:07.079
 So, post-incarnation, God in his humanity in Jesus, we can anthropomorphize.

01:18:07.880 --> 01:18:08.399
 Well, he is.

01:18:08.600 --> 01:18:09.079
 It's not anthropomorphizing.

01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:10.340
 He's human.

01:18:10.720 --> 01:18:10.899
 Right.

01:18:11.380 --> 01:18:15.180
 So, attributing human traits to Jesus is legitimate.

01:18:15.819 --> 01:18:23.300
 They would argue pre-incarnation to attribute human traits to God is to anthropomorphize him.

01:18:23.500 --> 01:18:26.399
 Before he's anthropomorphized in the ultimate sense.

01:18:26.720 --> 01:18:27.840
 Why is this a problem?

01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:29.760
 Well, that is a great question.

01:18:30.360 --> 01:18:31.579
 Why is it a problem?

01:18:31.659 --> 01:18:34.239
 It's based on the actual, your view of God.

01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:35.220
 Right.

01:18:35.819 --> 01:18:44.400
 So, on the classical theist position, you have divine simplicity, impassibility, and timelessness.

01:18:44.800 --> 01:18:50.659
 And these three together form a view of God in which God is transcendent.

01:18:51.300 --> 01:18:57.020
 And the creation is sort of a causal eminence of God.

01:18:57.020 --> 01:19:00.500
 And God is not changed by the creation.

01:19:00.980 --> 01:19:02.560
 That's the impassibility part.

01:19:03.040 --> 01:19:03.140
 Right.

01:19:03.360 --> 01:19:06.560
 God is not changed by his activity of creation.

01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:09.520
 Think of creation in this view.

01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:13.980
 Creation is like a shadow and God is the real thing.

01:19:14.400 --> 01:19:14.640
 Right.

01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:16.780
 The thing doesn't change because of the shadow.

01:19:17.140 --> 01:19:17.740
 Right.

01:19:17.739 --> 01:19:17.779
 Right.

01:19:18.899 --> 01:19:25.899
 And so, to say that God is fiddling with the shadow seems to assume that God is changing.

01:19:26.519 --> 01:19:27.359
 And that's not allowed.

01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:28.979
 Does that make sense?

01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:29.380
 Yeah.

01:19:30.099 --> 01:19:31.380
 Remind me just one more thing.

01:19:31.479 --> 01:19:33.539
 Remind me what a classical theist is again.

01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:34.519
 Yeah.

01:19:34.559 --> 01:19:36.260
 I'm getting lost in all the definitions today.

01:19:36.260 --> 01:19:36.460
 Yeah.

01:19:36.460 --> 01:19:37.680
 So, it depends on who you ask.

01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:42.380
 Classical theist could be another way of just saying I'm an orthodox Christian with a view of God.

01:19:42.880 --> 01:19:52.159
 But there's a term of art called classical theism which asserts the view of God as understood in the first couple centuries.

01:19:52.159 --> 01:19:57.979
 Well, I mean, in their credit, the first millennia or so of Christianity.

01:19:58.340 --> 01:19:58.840
 Right.

01:19:59.180 --> 01:20:10.279
 Which is to view God based on Aristotelian understandings of myriology and other, sorry, understandings of how parts work, what metaphysics is.

01:20:10.279 --> 01:20:20.739
 Basically, if you assume an Aristotelian metaphysic or a Platonic metaphysic, then you're going to be restricted to a classical theist God due to the nature of the way that reality works.

01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:31.579
 But, if you reject the classical metaphysic, then these problems go away.

01:20:32.460 --> 01:20:35.260
 So, does it just come down to God's in the ability then?

01:20:35.960 --> 01:20:36.340
 Yes.

01:20:36.519 --> 01:20:48.300
 So, in classical theism, God's aseity, his self-sufficiency requires that he be impassable and simple and timeless.

01:20:48.300 --> 01:20:53.239
 So, that's why they would require certain constraints when we're talking about creation.

01:20:53.560 --> 01:20:53.940
 Exactly.

01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:54.900
 Well, that's not true.

01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:56.119
 I mean, necessarily.

01:20:56.400 --> 01:21:04.100
 They would argue perhaps God imbued nature with the ability to create systems that look designed.

01:21:04.360 --> 01:21:05.400
 I mean, that...

01:21:05.400 --> 01:21:05.739
 Right?

01:21:05.800 --> 01:21:06.500
 That's kind of...

01:21:06.500 --> 01:21:11.539
 But, so they're not arguing necessarily for evolution or that it's completely secondary causation.

01:21:11.539 --> 01:21:16.100
 They're saying that the way that ID arguments work assumes a God that is tinkering.

01:21:16.579 --> 01:21:19.220
 And God, based on their assessment, cannot tinker.

01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:21.119
 Or will not tinker.

01:21:21.579 --> 01:21:22.840
 Or cannot tinker.

01:21:23.039 --> 01:21:23.380
 I don't know.

01:21:24.140 --> 01:21:25.579
 It's a very confusing argument.

01:21:26.340 --> 01:21:29.340
 So, if you can get a handle on it, tell me.

01:21:29.680 --> 01:21:32.600
 I just need a lot of books is what I'm getting at.

01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:32.840
 Yeah.

01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:38.460
 I mean, you need like a PhD level education in philosophy.

01:21:38.819 --> 01:21:38.979
 Yeah.

01:21:38.979 --> 01:21:41.079
 It's very difficult to understand.

01:21:42.159 --> 01:21:42.419
 All right.