in prayer together.
Father in heaven, we thank you for this chance to gather together,
to fellowship, to worship you.
We pray that your spirit would be with us in this hour
as we learn about the origin of Christmas.
But above all, Father, we ask that we would rejoice
at the birth of your Son, our Savior.
We thank you that more than 2,000 years ago,
you sent him to be born for us and to live and minister
and walk among us, to forgive sins and to heal
and to suffer and rise again on the third day.
Father, we ask that his resurrection would be powerful to us, Lord,
that we would feel it in our inmost being, that deposit,
that promise that you have given to us of eternal life
with you forever.
And we pray this in the name of your Son, Jesus.
Amen.
Okay, everybody.
So welcome to our class on the date of Christmas.
We're going to talk about a few things today.
We're going to talk about when was Jesus born?
We're going to answer that question.
We're also going to ask the question,
was Christmas originally a pagan holiday?
Because if you're familiar, popular culture will often say
that Christmas is based on an old ancient Roman pagan holiday
that was adopted by Christians because they wanted
the birth of Jesus to resonate with, you know, a pagan society,
and they wanted to make Christianity attractive.
So they chose this date to get, you know,
some of those pagans to come around to worshiping Jesus.
We're going to look at that question.
And then we're also going to look at another question,
which is just, does it really matter what day Jesus was born
or if Christmas was based on a pagan holiday?
And we're going to go in reverse order.
So we're going to start with this one here about whether it really matters.
And to talk about whether it matters,
we're going to listen to someone who has some wise things to say.
And I'm speaking about the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans.
And he says in Romans chapter 13, he says,
one person esteems one day as better than another,
while another esteems all days alike.
Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord,
and the one who eats eats in honor of the Lord,
since he gives thanks to God,
while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord
and gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives to himself and none of us dies to himself.
So what Paul is saying here,
he's in a context where people are arguing about
what days they should celebrate and mark.
If you look at the Old Testament,
there's a lot of holidays in the Old Testament,
and there were disputes in the early church
about whether Christians needed to or should follow those,
or whether it was even wrong to follow those.
And Paul here gives like a very sort of moderate position
where he says, you know,
really the most important thing he says
is that you should be,
let me see if I can get my little spotlight here,
you should be fully convinced in your own mind.
So for Paul, all days are made by God.
And if we choose to mark a day to worship God,
that's great.
If we choose to mark a day to go about
the other things God has called us to do,
no matter what we choose,
we're all following God in this.
And Paul gives a little bit more advice.
He goes on in the same passage.
He says, why do you pass judgment on your brother or you?
Why do you despise your brother?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer,
but rather decide never to put a stumbling block
or a hindrance in the way of a brother.
What Paul is saying here is that
not only should we be convinced in our own minds
about what days to celebrate and mark,
he says we shouldn't pass judgment
on people who think differently,
that we should be merciful
and that we should,
and whatever we do,
we should not put a stumbling block
or a hindrance in the way of another brother
as they're coming to Jesus.
And whether that means observing a day
or not observing a day,
we should do it all for the glory of God
and for the benefit of other people.
Now, some of you might be reading this
and thinking, okay, that's well and good,
but maybe there's a difference
if what we're talking about has pagan roots.
So maybe it's okay what Paul is saying
if we're talking about days and stuff
that have to do with Old Testament law
and things like that
and whether we should follow it,
but what if it's not Old Testament law?
What if it's, you know, a pagan holiday?
What about that?
Well, Paul also addresses a similar issue
in another letter.
He says to the Corinthians
in his first letter, chapter eight,
he's talking about if people should eat food
offered to idols
because back in the day
when Rome was a polytheistic society,
you'd go to the marketplace to get your meat
and a lot of the meat
had actually been sacrificed to an idol at some point.
And Christians were wondering,
should I eat this?
Has it been permanently contaminated?
And this is what Paul says.
He says,
As to eating a food offered to idols,
we know that an idol has no real existence
and that there is no God but one.
However, not all possess this knowledge,
but some, through former association with idols,
eat food as really offered to an idol
and their conscience being weak is defiled.
Food, he says,
will not commend us to God.
We are no worse off if we do not eat
and no better off if we do.
But take care that this right of yours
does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
And so what Paul is saying here is,
well, of course it's bad to worship idols,
but if you're just eating meat,
it's not inherently contaminated.
However, if, you know,
obviously if you used to worship idols in this way,
then it might be hard for you to do it
and then you shouldn't do it.
You should follow your conscience.
He says,
Above all,
you should follow your conscience
and you should not do anything
that causes another brother or sister to stumble.
Now, when we kind of take this thinking
and apply it to the date of December 25th,
the birthday of Jesus,
which some people say is based on a pagan holiday,
I think we can come to the same conclusions,
that God made all days,
he's in charge of all of them,
and what some people did hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of years ago
shouldn't necessarily determine
what we're going to do today.
However, we should be gracious and kind to other people
if they feel differently,
especially perhaps if they grew up thinking this way
or through former association with idols or something
and they feel like they can't celebrate it,
well, that's fine too.
And the reality is, guys,
that we do this all the time without knowing it.
So, for instance,
even the days of the week are based off of pagan days.
So, for instance,
Thursday is named after the god Thor, Thor's day,
and we still use it
because we just don't associate it with paganism anymore.
Or the months of the year,
January, Janus, god of doorways, Augustus,
he was deified,
he was a Roman god after he was emperor,
that's where the month of August comes from,
or his wife, maybe.
So we do this all the time.
And it gets, you know,
even in New Testament,
we can find this,
Apollos, he was that disciple,
associate of the apostles.
He's named after the god Apollo.
And he kept his name.
People change their names all the time
in the New Testament and Old Testament,
but he kept it.
And it was just, that was his name.
And it didn't necessarily involve paganism,
even though it may have had
some etymological connection with it.
And we could go even further
because our beloved word in the New Testament,
grace,
the three graces were actually pagan deities.
And this is in part because
the way polytheism works,
at least in the Roman Empire,
is they had gods and goddesses for everything.
So if we were going to cut all that out,
we'd be left with no streams,
no rivers,
no mountains,
no sky.
I mean, you just name it.
So we have to kind of go with Paul's advice here
or else we won't be able to do anything at all.
So that answers our first question
about does it really matter
if Christmas was a pagan holiday?
And I think the answer is,
from Paul's perspective,
it doesn't really matter.
If our conscience is bothered by it,
that's great.
We don't have to celebrate it.
But all in all,
there's nothing inherently wrong with that,
even if it was true.
But now we want to get to the other question.
Was Christmas originally a pagan holiday?
So people keep saying it,
but is it true?
It'd be kind of interesting to find out.
What's up?
I do have a question.
Is there any controversy
within different Christian traditions
about this question?
So there are,
you will,
there's a small,
small minority of people
that will make a claim.
For those of you listening at home,
the question is,
is there a current controversy
in Christian traditions
about Christmas being a pagan holiday?
And the answer is,
not really.
There has been more in the past,
like in the 17th and 18th century,
there were some theologians
that were making that claim more.
It was kind of like an anti-Catholic claim
where they were saying
that this whole Christmas thing,
it's not in the Bible,
it's a pagan holiday
that the Catholic Church adopted.
It was much more a live issue
a few centuries ago.
You'll still find some people
making that claim.
The bigger debate
in the large umbrella
of Christian traditions
is that there are people
that celebrate Christmas
on a different day,
but that's because
of calendar issues.
It's complicated,
but the Eastern Orthodox,
their calendar works differently,
so what they think
December 25th is
is a week or 10 days
or 13 days different
from our December 25th.
But you never know.
It might become
a live issue again.
So we're going to look at
where does the date of Christmas
as December 25th come from?
And how is it chosen
as the birth of Jesus?
Why do we celebrate Christmas
on December 25th?
It was a pagan holiday.
Okay, it was a pagan holiday.
It was the fifth day
of the Saturnium.
Yes, so okay.
So the traditional answer
that you'll get
of why do we celebrate Christmas
on December 25th
is that it's based
on the Roman pagan holiday
called Saturnalia,
which was this kind of long holiday
where Romans would get together
in a lot of revelry
and drinking and carousing
and stuff like that.
And it was in December.
Well, so I think scholars
are agreed that it was not
based on Saturnalia.
Yes.
Well, what it really comes down
to the emperor decided
that December 25th
was Christ's birthday
and from then on it was.
Well, it's a little more complicated.
Yeah, I know it is.
Okay.
But really,
when you break it down,
that's what happened.
So the Saturnalia,
the two holidays
that are given
for why Christmas
was chosen
as December 25th
is some people say
it was based off
of the pagan holiday
Saturnalia.
Others will give
a different holiday
that I'll talk about
in a moment.
But let's deal
with the Saturnalia thing
right now.
So if you look up
ancient practices
to do with Saturnalia,
the funny thing
is that it actually
wasn't on December 25th.
It was on different days
in December.
And as far as we can tell,
it never was on December 25th.
And so the idea
was that some people
try and make the leap
by saying that
maybe Saturnalia
was supposed to be
a fun holiday.
So maybe Christians
chose Christmas
because it was supposed
to be a fun holiday
and maybe they chose it
to be next to Saturnalia.
But it doesn't really add up.
Christmas is still
several days away.
And then originally,
remember,
Christmas was not this
kind of like
Christmas present
kind of thing.
It was a solemn occasion.
So that one
doesn't really add up.
There's another one,
though,
that makes a little more sense
that we'll talk about
in just a moment.
And to get
at why Christmas
was chosen,
we've got to go back
in the midst of time
a little bit.
What we're looking at here
is a document called
the Chronography
of 354 A.D.
It was a calendar
that was put together
by a guy named Philo Callus.
I know you can't see his name,
but it's actually written
right there.
And he wrote
in 354 A.D.
And he wrote
a calendar
for the people of Rome
and the church in Rome
in 354 A.D.
And
in this calendar,
he says
it's the first
undisputed
piece of evidence
saying that
Jesus was born
on December 25th.
So
the ironic thing
about this
is that
in another passage
in the same document,
he says
that December 25th
was also
the birthday
of what he says
is
Invictus,
which is a little
ambiguous.
It's Latin
for the unconquered one,
but it seems
to refer
to the Roman
sun god
Saul.
Saul Invictus.
Here's a mosaic
of Saul Invictus,
the unconquered sun.
And so the other
pagan holiday
that people will say
Christmas is based off of
is the birthday
of the sun god,
the Roman sun god,
Saul Invictus.
And that
was on
December 25th.
And
so there is
an issue here
because the question is
does that word
Invictus
actually refer
to this guy?
It could refer
to Jesus.
He is the unconquered one.
You know,
he rose from the grave.
So it's a little ambiguous,
but
the birthday
of Saul Invictus
would make
sense
because
and forgive me
for being a little
astronomical here
because
December 25th
was thought
to be the winter
solstice
in the Roman calendar.
Astronomically,
it's not actually.
It's a few days earlier,
but they didn't know that.
So it was
December 25th.
December 25th
is the longest
night of the year,
the shortest day
because of the way
the Earth
rotates around the sun
or orbits around the sun
and including its tilt
in the northern hemisphere
at least.
And so
it makes sense
to have a feast
of the sun god
on the winter solstice
because that
is when
they thought
the sun god
was born,
when light
begins to
start getting stronger
and stronger
and stronger.
So if you're going
to pick a day
for the sun god
to be born,
it would be
that day.
So that's
an argument
that maybe
the chronography
of 354
did actually
refer to the sun god
being born
on December 25th,
which means
that our earliest
document
for the birth
of Jesus
on December 25th
also says
the sun god
was born
on December 25th.
It's one of those
weird ironies
of history.
So let's
go over
what we've found
so far.
So the chronography
of 354
was written
in 354 A.D.
It says clearly
Jesus was born
on December 25th.
But,
and this is
the earliest
undisputed reference
to this date.
But,
it also says
this guy
Invictus
was born
on December 25th
and that seems
to refer
to the sun god.
Now we've got
to connect
the dots.
Is this coincidental?
Is one based
on the other?
What's going on here?
How do we figure
out the origin
of this day
for Jesus?
It turns out
that if we do
some digging
into the festival
of the sun god
Sol Invictus,
it's another
little irony
is that
this is also
the earliest
witness for him
having a holiday
on December 25th.
All the previous
testimony
about the sun god
Invictus,
his holidays
are on different
days.
They're not
on December 25th.
They're on other
days in the calendar.
So we're kind
of at an impasse
here because
both our earliest
pieces of evidence
for both come
from exactly
the same document
and were written
exactly the same
time.
So what do we
do with this?
Why was this
chosen for the
date of Jesus'
birth?
Was it based
on the birthday
of Sol Invictus
or maybe some
other reasons?
Well, this is
where we're going
to look for a
little bit more
evidence.
And this is
going to come
from a guy
named Hippolytus
of Rome.
He wrote about
100 years before
the chronography
of 354.
He wrote between
200 and 235 A.D.
I love this guy.
I've spent a lot
of my time
researching him.
He wrote
several books.
He wrote one
called A Commentary
on Daniel
and some other
things as well.
Here's a picture
of it.
And in his
commentary on Daniel
he says something
very interesting
about the birth
of Jesus.
He says this,
For the first
advent of our
Lord in the flesh
when he was
born in Bethlehem
was April,
March,
December 25th.
It's kind of weird.
Wednesday,
while Augustus,
that's the emperor,
was reigning
in his 42nd year
but in the
5,500th year
from Adam.
He suffered
in the 33rd year
so Jesus died
in his 33rd year
of age,
March 25th,
a Friday.
So it's a little
complicated what's
going on here.
It's also a little
weird.
So he's trying
to give the day
for when he thinks
Jesus was born
but it doesn't
really make sense.
He says he was
born April,
March,
December.
And the reason
why is that
when you look
at this commentary
in the manuscripts
that we have,
they conflict.
Some of them say
Jesus was born
on December 25th.
One of them
gives this weird
double date
in the springtime.
So the problem
is that
some copies
of his commentary
say December 25th,
other copies
give a different
date.
If he really
did think
that it was
December 25th,
then we would
have some
great evidence
that the birth
of Jesus
was not chosen
based on the
feast day
of the sun god
because Hippolytus
wrote about
100 years before
that date
was first witnessed.
But we don't
know yet
because these
manuscripts
conflict.
And actually
there's a big
footnote explaining
all this
which I won't
go through.
But we're
kind of at
an impasse
here again
because another
date for Christmas
on December 25th
has conflicting
manuscript evidence.
We don't know
which is the
authentic reading
so we're at
another impasse.
He might have
said Jesus
was born
on December 25th.
We don't know.
So this is
where we need
another good
clue here.
And this is
going to come
from this
statue here.
This is
actually it's
one of the
most famous
Christian artifacts
of all time.
It seems to
be perhaps
the earliest
piece of
Christian archaeology
ever discovered
that we can
definitively date
to a specific
year.
It's called
the Statue
of Hippolytus.
Remember Hippolytus
was the guy
who wrote
that commentary.
It sits
in the
Vatican library
and on
the side
of this
statue
you can
see
you probably
can't read
it but you
can see
there's
inscriptions
all over
this thing.
And
these
inscriptions
date
from
222
AD.
And we
know that
because it
says it.
It says
it was made
in the
first year
of the
emperor
Alexander
Severus
that's
222
AD.
And we
also know
it because
what we're
looking at
here is
a calendar
and the
calendar dates
itself to
222 AD.
So we know
that's when
it was from
and we know
that it was
by Hippolytus.
And in
this calendar
he says
something
interesting.
These pictures
are a little
blurry.
I have much
better pictures
but I'm not
allowed to
show them
because I'm
not allowed to
publish them
online.
So I have
to pick a
little blurrier
ones here.
But what's
in this
box is
actually a
statement that
I know
blurry but
it says
the
Genesis
of
Christ.
In other
words in
this calendar
Hippolytus
is marking
the day
when he
thinks the
Genesis
the original
term is
Genesis
or the
birth of
Jesus
occurred.
And if
we inscribe
this inscription
this is what
it looks
like.
And there's
where he
says the
Genesis
of Christ.
So in
other words
if we
translate
this maybe
we'll figure
out when
he thought
Hippolytus
was born.
Maybe
he'll say
December
25th.
Maybe
this will
be the
proof.
Well let's
look at a
translation of
it.
Now I'm
going to
warn you
guys.
Unfortunately
we're going
to have to
do a
little bit
of math
here.
So just
be patient.
I'll get
you through
it.
Don't
worry.
So if
we translate
this I
know the
letters are
very small
here but
this is
where he
talks about
the birth
of Jesus
and I
have a
note at
the bottom
the Genesis
of Christ
and the
date it
corresponds
with is
April 2nd.
It's kind
of a
bummer.
So yeah
so he
says very
clearly it's
totally
definitive.
He says
that the
genesis of
Jesus
happened on
April 2nd
and if you
run the
numbers he
actually thinks
it's 2
BC.
2 BC
April 2nd.
He's got
other interesting
dates here like
he puts down
when he thinks
the Exodus
happened when
Jesus the
passion of
Jesus and
other things
happened as
well that we
don't have time
to go into.
But there's
still a little
puzzle here because
what actually does
he mean by
the Genesis
of Christ
anyway?
Because that
term is just
the Greek
term for
origin or
beginning.
That's where
the book of
Genesis gets
its title from.
So the
question is
what did he
think the
beginning of
Jesus was?
Was it his
birth?
Could it
have been
something else?
What do you
guys think?
Anyone?
I did.
Conception.
Could it be his
conception?
Huh.
Wait.
And what's
nine months
after April
2nd?
It's pretty
close to
December 25th.
Well, I
actually, one of
my earliest
research projects
was on this
very question.
What does he
mean when he
says Genesis
of Christ?
And if you do
a big study
and you
look at all
the writings
we have of
Hippolytus and
you look at all
the times he
uses the word
Genesis to try
and figure out
what does he
think?
The evidence is
pretty clear that
he thought it
referred to
conception.
Meaning that he
thought Jesus was
not born on
April 2nd.
He thought Jesus
was conceived on
April 2nd.
That's when the
angel Gabriel
appeared to Mary
in the Gospel
of Luke.
Which means
nine months
later, I
mean, is
like so
exactly nine
months later
is January
2nd.
But, you
know, December
25th, it's
still possible.
So, in other
words, we now
know when
Hippolytus
thought Jesus
was conceived.
We don't
know when he
thought Jesus
was born.
But we're
close.
We're homing
in on it,
right?
What we need
is, so, yeah,
let me just go
over what we've
talked about.
So, we've
talked about the
chronography of
354.
It says Jesus
was born on
December 25th.
It also says
this guy
Invictus, whoever
that is, maybe
the sun god,
maybe Jesus, was
born on December
25th.
We know that
if it is the
sun god, this is
the earliest date
for the festival
of the sun god.
So, if we want
to show that
Jesus' birth was
not based on
this, we've got
to go earlier.
And now we're
talking about
this guy,
Hippolytus of
Rome.
He's writing about
100 years before
the chronography of
354, a little
more than 100
years.
He does say
Jesus was born
on December 25th,
but there's
manuscript problems.
You know, it's
unclear if he
actually thought
that.
He definitely,
though, thinks
that Jesus was
conceived on the
Passover or early
April.
I should go back
to this little
calendar here.
All these dates
correspond with the
Passover.
And so, when he
says Jesus was
born on April 2nd,
he's also stating
that Jesus was,
when he says Jesus
was conceived on
April 2nd, he's
also saying that
Jesus was conceived
on the Passover.
So, okay, that's
where we are now.
We're almost there.
We're almost there
to December 25th.
We need a little
bit more evidence.
Well, this evidence
comes from another
work of Hippolytus.
Hippolytus was one
of these, like, he
thought math could
prove a lot of
stuff.
So, he wrote this
kind of mathematical
and chronological
work, and in it, he
says that Jesus was
born nine months after
the anniversary of the
creation of the
world.
But he doesn't give
us when he thought
the world was
created.
Hippolytus is what
we would call a
young earther.
Like, he believed
the earth was
literally made in
six days, six 24-hour
days.
And he, the earth
was about 6,000,
5,000-something years
old.
And there were other
people in the early
church that believed
that.
There were others that
didn't, just like
today.
But he thought the
world was created on a
specific calendar day,
and that whatever day
that was, nine months
later, Jesus was born on
the anniversary of that
day.
In other words, if we
can figure out when
Hippolytus thought the
world was created, then
we just add nine months
and we get the
birthday of Jesus.
Okay?
I know it sounds weird,
and it's kind of like
mental acrobatics, and
that's because it's what
it is.
This is what Hippolytus is
doing.
He loved this kind of
stuff.
So he's throwing all
these numbers around.
So the problem is
Hippolytus never really
says when he thought the
world was created.
He doesn't just come out
and say it, but he does
tell us how to figure it
out.
And all we have to do
is start, he gives us
the formula, we start
with the conception of
Jesus, and we go back
5,500 years, I think it's
5,502 years, to find the
day when the world was
created in his little
calendar here.
And notice that there are
some dates here.
So what we're going to do
is we're going to start
here, and we're just going
to cycle through these,
and we're going to do
5,502 steps.
And when we get to here,
we're going to start
again and just keep going
until we get 5,502 years.
And notice that there is
a March 25th date.
So if we land on that
date, that would be when
Hippolytus thought the
world was created, and then
nine months from that date
is December 25th.
So it's possible.
So let's see if we can
make it happen.
So if we run the numbers
and we start here, and we
do 5,502 steps to see what
date we're going to come up
with.
Oh, we come up here, March
29th.
Oh, that was close, though,
guys.
It was pretty close.
Well, there's another little
wrinkle here.
There's another little
wrinkle here.
I know this calendar is
small and it's hard to see.
The problem is I've got to
have it all on the screen,
otherwise it won't work
properly.
But there's another wrinkle
here.
So remember that I said that
this was a Passover
calendar?
He's trying to figure out
when various Passovers
occurred.
So he thinks the world was
created on or near the
Passover, et cetera, et
cetera.
Well, there's something
interesting here.
So this number 5 here means
that it refers to the 5th day
of the week.
What is that?
Is that?
I'm really bad here, people.
Is that Friday or Thursday?
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday.
Okay, Thursday.
So he thinks the world was
created on a Thursday,
apparently.
And it was March 29th of
Thursday.
Well, it turns out, if you do
a little more reading, that
that's actually when he thinks
the moon was created.
Because you can't have a
Passover without the moon.
Because the Passover happens
on the full moon.
So he thinks that's when the
moon was created.
And then if we go back,
four, no, when was the moon
created in Genesis?
What day of the week?
If we go back, we get to
March 25th, day one, Sunday.
Meaning that he did think the
world was created on March 25th.
So, actually, it's a little,
okay, yes, it's far-fetched.
But remember, we're not talking
about whether Jesus was actually
born on this day.
We're talking about where this
belief came from.
And this was Hippolytus' belief,
that he thought that the world
was kind of this cosmic ballad
that witnessed to God's creation.
And that God liked to create
things on the Passover and
vernal equinox.
He created the world on the
vernal equinox.
The Passover was five days
later.
You go throughout history,
all these various biblically
impressive events, like the
exodus occurred on the
Passover, the genesis of
Christ, the death of Jesus.
All these things happened on
the Passover, he thought.
So, in other words, we go
through our little, all our
data points here, and we can
add one more, that Jesus was
born nine months after the
anniversary of the creation of
the world, which was March
25th, and then nine months
later is, of course, December
25th.
So, in other words, this is
probably how we got the date of
December 25th.
Hippolytus seems to have settled
on this because of, he thought
that Jesus was conceived on the
Passover, the world was created on
March 25th, and he added in this
nine-month kind of gestational
period, because, of course, Jesus
being perfect would have had
exactly nine-month gestation,
right?
No more, no less.
What's also interesting is that
once we figure this out about
Hippolytus, we figure out that
other Christians pretty much said
the same thing.
This guy, Julius Africanus, in 221,
he has the same fundamental
assumptions that Hippolytus has
about the birth of Jesus.
Clement of Alexandria in 195, he's
got the same stuff going on, where
he thinks there's this Passover
link.
Jesus was conceived on the
Passover, born nine months later.
Nine months after the Passover,
remember the Passover, like Easter,
moves around on the calendar.
Nine months after it is always
around December 25th.
It's always roughly around there.
So, in other words, it's not just
Hippolytus doing this.
There's other early Christians that
are doing this as well.
And that helps us to answer our
question, was Christmas originally
chosen because it corresponded with
a pagan holiday?
Not really.
It was because certain early
Christians had this belief that the
angel Gabriel appeared to Mary on
the Passover.
And that's when they believed Jesus
was conceived, and they thought that
Jesus was therefore conceived nine
months later, so they figured, all I
got to do is figure out when Gabriel
appeared to Mary, and add exactly nine
months, because of course he would have
had a perfect nine-month justational
period, and we get his birthday.
And it also explains why the early
Christian dates for Christmas are
always a little different.
Some said December 25th.
Some say early January.
I think there's one that's mid-December.
And that's because if this is what
they're doing, they're always landing
nine months after the Passover, which
is approximately when, around December
25th, give or take a couple weeks.
Amos.
Were you saying that there's a link
between the equinox and the Passover,
like the timing?
Yeah.
So the question is, is there a link
between the Passover and the equinox?
Yes.
So, well, I won't show, I won't go all
the way back.
But there's a link because in the Bible,
I think the phrase is like, the Passover
should be celebrated on the first full moon
of the new year, and the new year is
marked, I think, when something becomes
ripe or something, and that was later
interpreted as the vernal equinox.
So Passover was always supposed to be
on the first full moon after the vernal
equinox.
And then we celebrate Easter on the first
Sunday after the Passover, because Jesus
was crucified on or near the Passover, and
then was resurrected the following Sunday.
So the vernal equinox, it's one of those
things where most ancient traditions and
religions have some celebration with the
vernal equinox.
Because it's when light begins to outshine
darkness.
Where the winter solstice is when light
starts getting stronger.
It's been getting less and less and less
for the past three months.
So there is a connection between the vernal
equinox and the Passover, because the
vernal equinox will, if you just do a lunar
cycle, so you're just counting 13 lunar cycles
in every year, eventually your lunar calendar
will just completely get disconnected to your
solar calendar.
So they insert an intercalary month, so it
never goes much beyond the vernal equinox.
So every few years they stick in an extra
lunar month.
And yeah.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, because it sounds like, it might be
fair to say that, so you said Sol Invictus'
birth was on the winter solstice.
Yeah.
So in that sense, and it sounds like what
you're saying is that in an approximate way,
Jesus' birth also correspond or was derived
based on the solar calendar.
So in a sense, both, you know, maybe for
different pathways through the reasoning, both
Jesus and Sol Invictus' birthday originate or was
derived from the solar calendar.
Yes.
Actually, yes.
So you can make an argument that the birth of
Sol Invictus has to do with the solar calendar
and when the vernal equinox happened.
There are similar considerations going on with
Jesus, but they're not saying, well, we want
the day that Sol Invictus has.
They're saying, hey, God created the heavens
and the earth, and we think Jesus was conceived
on the vernal equinox, therefore he's going to
be.
So that's, so yes, there's a parallel, parallel
reasonings going on.
They're both looking to the, to the sun and the
moon to figure out when to put things.
But the Bible does that too.
And we're supposed to, the Bible says God created
the sun and the moon to mark times and it's
created by God.
And so we're comfortable using the moon and sun to
mark our calendars.
This is also, by the way, Hippolytus is following
the Roman calendar here.
You guys may have picked up that December 25th is not
actually the winter solstice.
The Romans thought it was, but it's not.
It's actually a few days earlier.
Well, Clement, the Egyptians had a better calendar.
So their winter solstice is more accurate,
astronomically speaking.
So his, his date of Jesus's birth is a little bit
different, but it's because he's following a
different calendar where his winter solstice and
vernal equinox were on different, were on
different days.
Although his were a little more accurate.
So I still want to ask a question though.
When was Jesus actually born?
So we've talked about when, when Hippolytus thought
Jesus was born and when some other people thought
Jesus was born, but when was he actually born?
And it would be really nice if the Bible just told us,
right?
If Luke just came out or Matthew just came out and
just said, Oh yeah, it was, it was this day, but
they don't.
Or do they?
Well, let's go to the gospel of Luke.
Maybe he's hidden something in there that we can use.
If we go to the gospel of Luke, why did my, my
PowerPoint just, just went.
Okay.
There it is.
I don't know what was happening there.
So we go to the gospel of Luke and he tells us something.
He says in Luke chapter one, 13 through 17, he says that
an angel tells Zechariah that Elizabeth is going to
conceive a son.
Okay.
Remember that it's going to be important.
This is going to be John the Baptist, right?
John the Baptist is going to be, he, he receives this
message while he's in the temple doing temple service.
He's a priest.
And the angel says, your wife's going to conceive a
son.
Then I'm not sure why there's these delays going on here.
So then Luke goes on.
He says that Mary, the angel Gabriel appears to Mary six
months after Elizabeth had conceived John the Baptist.
And he's very clear on that.
He says six months.
So that means that Jesus is, therefore we can assume that
Mary gives birth to Jesus six months after Elizabeth gives
birth to John the Baptist.
In other words, Jesus is six months older than John or younger
than John the Baptist, right?
There's a six months difference.
So if we can figure out when John the Baptist was born or when
he was conceived, maybe we can figure out when Jesus was
born, right?
So there's another piece of evidence.
Luke says that Zechariah was a priest and that he was in the
priestly course of Abijah.
Every priest was put in various courses and they would have their
two week rotation in the temple.
Your two weeks would come up.
You'd get called to do your temple service.
Two weeks come up.
You could call to do temple service.
And it was very regimented.
So if we can figure out when the course of Abijah was serving in
the temple, hey, maybe we can figure out when Jesus was born.
I've got some scholarly friends of mine who are big believers in
this theory.
And they've written some articles on this.
And you can try and reconstruct when the course of Abijah was
happening.
And there are some people that claim that Abijah was in the
course of Abijah.
So the priests, including Zechariah, would have been in the temple in
mid to late September.
So I'm sorry, we're going to have to do the math again.
So that's when, if he's in there mid to late September, six months after that,
Jesus is conceived.
Well, six months after mid-September is mid-late March.
And then born nine months later is mid to late December.
Now, there are some people that maintain this.
I don't really buy it.
There's a lot of assumptions going into this.
So first of all, the number six, Luke does say six months, but it's like, you know, this
could be five and a half months, six and a half months.
He doesn't necessarily mean exactly six months.
And then even if he did, who's, I mean, we don't know if Jesus actually had a
perfect nine months gestational period.
There's nothing, I mean, he doesn't, maybe he was born nine and a half months later.
Maybe he was born eight months later.
And then we also don't know that this is when Elizabeth, where is my thing here?
That we're assuming that Elizabeth and conceived John the Baptist, you know, the day the angel
told this to Zechariah, but there's no indication of this.
It could have been months later.
We don't know.
And then this whole course of Abijah thing, you know, the reality is I, we just don't really
know when the course of Abijah would have been serving in the temple.
There's some speculation.
The problem is that we know that the high priests at this time were not always following
the law correctly.
We know that exceptions were made all the time.
Like we just don't know.
There's no, if we did have a document that, you know, literally said and was very clear,
I could believe it, but we don't have good documentation for this.
So in other words, I don't really buy it.
You guys are free to buy it.
Some people do.
That's fine.
I don't really buy it.
But traditionally, this is one of the ways people have tried to figure out when Jesus
was actually born is if we could figure out when this guy was in the temple and then we
have these other assumptions, then maybe we could figure it out.
So when was Jesus actually born?
Well, I don't know, but I have to say that if I was going to pick something, it is interesting
that Luke does say twice when he's referring to the birth of Jesus, he says, Mary treasured
up all these things, pondering them in her heart.
And I certainly got to believe that the angel Gabriel appearing to her and telling her that
she was going to be the mother of God's son would have been a pretty big deal.
And she would have remembered that and would have remembered the date that that happened.
And it is interesting that of all the dates we've been talking about, the birth of Jesus,
the conception of Jesus, the thing that is rock solid in early Christian tradition, everybody
agrees that this happened on the Passover.
It's the earliest tradition we have, and it's also the most widespread and universal tradition.
And so that is probably what I would hang my hat on if I had to, is I'd be like, there's
just this really, really early tradition that's very universal that this happened on the Passover
and nine months after the Passover is around late December, early January.
That's when it is around.
So was Jesus born on December 25th?
There's a chance.
We'll find out one day.
All right, guys.
Thanks for sitting through some calendrical math and astronomical speculation.
If you guys have questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
Yeah, the first thing Callie said was, uh-oh, when I raised my hand.
So, Tom, this is so interesting, man.
As always, great job.
Love it.
As far as the birth of Jesus goes dating that, the only way I'd really look at this before
was through the star and through astronomical evidence.
And I read a book some time ago by a guy named Mike Molnar called The Star of Bethlehem.
And he talks about, walks you through very systematically, like what would the Magi have seen to cause them
to believe and understand that this amazing king was born, you know, in the ancient Near East.
And based off of that, that pretty much concludes that Jupiter would have been part of that and where everything was.
And that caused the date, I think it was around early April.
Now, do you have anything to say about data that comes from the astronomical side of this?
So, I have read that also.
I've read that also, that there were these astronomical considerations.
It's true that that's what the Magi were looking at.
Matthew talks about a star.
That word for star, though, could be a star, could be a planet, could be a comet,
could be any kind of meteorological phenomenon.
And the idea is that there is this aligning of planets and maybe a constellation, too.
I don't know.
Yeah, it was a constellation.
That was all aligned.
So, I remember, I'm not an astronomer.
So, I'm just like, okay, that sounds good.
I will say that biblically, though, it's very unclear when the Magi actually show up.
And so, we know that they see this star.
I think what the most interesting, and this is kind of speculative, but the most interesting
thing they're dealing with is they're not just seeing the star, but they're looking at,
they're from Babylon or Babylonia, the greater area, and that had a Jewish presence for hundreds
and hundreds of years.
And there's a prophecy in the Old Testament that a star will rise out of, is it Jacob or
Judah?
And that maybe they're thinking of that and they're seeing this, whatever it is they're
seeing.
And, but because we don't really know when they're seeing this alignment and what, or
even specifically what it is they're seeing, I just, I think it's hard to pinpoint an actual
day that, remember, we've got to be so specific.
If we want December 25th, we've got to land on a day.
And ancient astronomers sometimes were shockingly good, but other times they weren't good at
all.
Like, like this calendar of Hippolytus, part of the reason that we know when it was written
is because it's wrong.
Because it's actually only, it says, it says it was written in the year 222.
And when you run the numbers astronomically and you compare it to the lunar cycle, you
realize it's actually only accurate for a few years before and after 222 AD.
So we know we have double confirmation of when it was written.
So he was, Hippolytus was actually a pretty poor astronomer.
I'm assuming the Magi would have been better, but it just, even if we knew the constellation,
you'd still have to show that they were aware of it as well.
Because like I said, the Romans themselves couldn't get the solstice right.
They were a few days off from the solstice.
They knew it was there.
So I guess I'm still skeptical.
I remember reading this thing about Revelation and the woman closed with the sun and the
moon and 12 stars on her head.
And there's apparently this astronomical phenomenon where these constellations all align.
It's really fascinating.
And it might be true, maybe.
I don't know.
Oh, do you want to follow up?
I've got a kind of learning check real quick.
It sounds like the ideas for the December 25th date were around in 1st, 2nd century, 3rd
century, but popularized in 354, right?
When that calendar.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Really when it went popular?
That's a great question.
So the fundamental assumptions that led to the December 25th date are certainly around in
the 2nd century.
And we see them first explicitly in the early 3rd century.
We see some of the assumptions even as early as the 2nd century.
So in the 2nd century, we see traditions that Jesus was conceived on the Passover.
So that's already in the 100s.
And then in the early 200s, we see that Jesus was actually born on December 25th, but there's
a variety of traditions.
And then in the 3rd or the 4th century, the 300s, December 25th starts becoming more and
more popular.
But there's still alternative traditions, even then.
And it takes a while for things to settle down and get to December 25th universally.
Thank you.
Very interesting talk.
But I'm kind of looking at it from a different angle.
I mean, Christians were, when we initially started, Christians were pretty much, they're
the hunted kind of a group of people at that time.
Yeah.
And we know that from the Bible that, you know, Jesus' birth is sometime during the winter
months.
Not in the summer months, but in the winter months.
What do you think about the, you know, general, you know, assumption that maybe it was done
because it was a safe time to celebrate, you know, being a Christian, able to celebrate
at the same time and kind of mixing with the...
Oh, I see.
I see.
So the idea is that Christians are being persecuted.
And if they have this holiday where they're celebrating, then it might mark them as Christians
and they might suffer more persecution.
But if they celebrate when other people, other people following the Roman religion are celebrating,
then they won't stick out.
Exactly.
So that people will find...
And then through time, it becomes tradition.
Yeah.
And then through time, it becomes tradition.
It's possible.
It's definitely possible.
A lot of this is kind of speculation on our part.
But I will say that Hippolytus, the guy who wrote this calendar, this guy was as zealous
as you can possibly imagine and was more anti-pagan than you can really imagine.
To the point where in his commentary, he has this prayer where he's talking about Shadrach,
Meshach, and Abednego being thrown in the fiery furnace.
And he says, you know, this happens today where people are brought before tribunals and
they're tortured and they're put to death.
And he has this prayer where he says, Lord, please make me a witness like them.
And 15 years later, he was martyred.
He was executed for his faith.
So he does not seem like the kind of guy that would want to snuggle up with, you know,
under the penumbra of a pagan holiday.
He urges people, be open with your faith.
You know, be willing to make the good confession.
So at least with him, I don't think that probably would have happened.
My impression from other early Christian writers is they were a zealous bunch.
They probably would not have wanted to do that.
But it is possible.
I've actually, so I've presented one view of this whole astronomical view, but there are
other views like, and none of them are mutually exclusive.
Like someone could believe that and this at the same time.
And it just, it just all agrees.
There's another view in there's some early sermons where they talk about on December 25th,
they talk about the son of righteousness appears with healing in his wings.
And that could then get back to the whole winter solstice idea that Jesus is the son of righteousness.
He rises with healing in his wings like the solar sun.
And they're picking that day because of that.
There's another, there's another idea that, that it's like a very literal reading of Luke
where Luke says Jesus was about to be 30 years old.
And so they try and they say he must be literally 30 years old, like not a single day more or less.
And they try and do all these calculations on that.
So there's various views, but most of them come back to this, some kind of calendrical futzing about.
They believe something with the calendar.
In other words, none of them, they're not really saying we heard from tradition that Jesus was born on December 25th.
They're giving these other reasons to arrive at that date.
If that makes sense.
There may be one, one exception to that rule, but okay.
I don't mean to be a downer.
If you guys want to believe he was born on December 25th, that's great.
So that's totally fine.
I hope he was.
I joyfully celebrate his birth on December 25th.
So I'm excited about it.
Another question, Clay?
Understanding check again and walking away.
Is it more to do with the perfect nine months after the creation of the world or the perfect nine months after Mary gets the news at Passover?
So which one is kind of the more governing of the two?
Yes.
Great question.
Well, I think when it comes to Hippolytus, that he wasn't the greatest astronomer.
He wasn't the greatest mathematician either.
So he may not have sorted that out in his mind, that distinction, which you very perceptively pointed out.
And the reason why is because if you really look at this calendar and dig into it, you'll note that he says things like, for instance, he'll say, this is when the Exodus happened on note H.
And you can go find note H in the calendar.
But then he's got another statement where he says, well, this is when the Exodus happened according to Daniel.
And this is when the Passover of Joshua happened on note D.
But then you see this is when Joshua according to Daniel happened.
What's going on here is that Hippolytus has done his biblical chronology.
He's gone through the historical books of the Bible.
He's tried to find all these Passovers.
But then he had this peculiar view about Daniel and his prophecy.
And they were contradictory.
He couldn't make them match.
So he just laid down completely contradictory dates in his calendar just openly and just said these things apparently occurred twice.
Like there were there were two Exodus Passovers, even though there's only one.
Anyway, my point is that he did not mind living in contradiction.
And so that nine month issue of whether it was exactly nine months from creation or exactly nine months from conception,
I think he probably just would have been he probably didn't really sort it out.
Does that make sense?
Thank you.
There are others.
You see other people juggling with stuff where they'll say that, no, Jesus wasn't crucified on.
Because what they they try to do this perfect life balance where Jesus is crucified and conceived on the same day, the Passover.
But you'll see others saying, no, no, no, no, no.
He was conceived on the Passover, but he was resurrected on the vernal equinox.
And they start doing all this stuff for the vernal equinox and Passover going back and forth.
But they're always pivoting around that idea that he was conceived on the Passover.
That's the consistent idea.
Sometimes the Passover is on the vernal equinox.
Sometimes it's near it.
Sometimes he dies on the Passover and vernal equinox.
Sometimes he is resurrected on the vernal equinox.
It just depends on how they're doing their jiggering and then how they want to then fast forward nine months to find December or December 25th, January 2nd, January 7th, whatever date, whatever date they have in mind.
All right, guys.
Well, let's why don't I wrap up with just a word of prayer.
Father in heaven, we thank you that you have left your witnesses in the heavens to your glory with the sun and the moon.
Father, as the darkness is growing in this season, I pray that we would remember the birth of your son.
Father, we read in scripture that he is the day spring who will arise and shine on the darkness of our souls.
And we ask that, Lord, you would forgive us of our sins and that as we remember his birth, that we would love others.
We would humbly serve them.
We would declare your gospel, God, that we would rejoice at salvation that has been given to us so freely and so perfectly.
And we pray this in the mighty name of Jesus.
Amen.