WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.520 All right. 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:04.759 Well, thanks for coming this morning. 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:12.460 This is the last session of our class on integrating work and faith. 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:14.460 ! 00:00:15.179 --> 00:00:21.519 So we hope this has been an edifying class for you. 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.100 ! It certainly has been for me and for Kunle as well. 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:29.240 The plan for today is really 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:31.000 discussion-based. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:36.939 So I'll take a couple minutes just to review the arc of the course. 00:00:37.939 --> 00:00:41.859 And Kunle and I have been marinating on questions that 00:00:41.859 --> 00:00:46.579 have come up in our minds over the course of the last few weeks 00:00:46.579 --> 00:00:52.179 and maybe some things that we've heard bubbling up in our discussion here. 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.219 So we have a few things that we've been considering 00:00:55.219 --> 00:00:58.099 and are ready to discuss, but I'll do the review. 00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:03.939 And we'll maybe start with one question to get the juices flowing. 00:01:03.939 --> 00:01:10.519 But then really the hope today is that we can apply everything that we've been talking about 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:15.859 for the last few weeks and that we can apply it together as we interact with the concepts. 00:01:15.859 --> 00:01:21.500 So let me just open us up in prayer real quick and then we'll get started. 00:01:22.700 --> 00:01:28.659 Father, we just thank you for the truth and the joy that your word brings to our lives. 00:01:28.659 --> 00:01:34.859 And we thank you that in your word you've shown us the goodness of work, Lord, 00:01:34.859 --> 00:01:44.319 that you worked and that it was good and that you call us to participate in the work of cultivating your creation. 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:49.420 Lord, we pray that as we engage with these concepts together today, 00:01:49.420 --> 00:01:54.379 that it would be a time of learning, a time of joy. 00:01:54.379 --> 00:02:03.219 Lord, in just a time of togetherness as we embrace the truth and love that we see reflected in your word for us. 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.239 Father, we just thank you for Jesus and it's in his name we pray. 00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:07.619 Amen. 00:02:08.219 --> 00:02:08.560 Amen. 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:08.840 Amen. 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:11.259 All right. 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:22.460 So we had five weeks of discussion and broadly the first couple of weeks covered the goodness of work. 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.199 The second couple of weeks covered the brokenness of work. 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:28.379 And then last week was putting it all together. 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:36.080 So in the first couple of weeks, we talked about God's good design for work, 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:45.640 that he worked in the beginning, that it was good, and that he calls us to participate in that work in a number of different ways. 00:02:45.860 --> 00:02:50.560 So he calls us to work with our minds, with our hands. 00:02:50.660 --> 00:02:53.340 He calls us to spiritual work and material work. 00:02:53.420 --> 00:02:58.640 He calls us to cultural work, unpaid work, paid work. 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:09.299 And one of the things that we uncovered in that was that none of these types of work is better than another 00:03:09.299 --> 00:03:14.299 because our primary calling in work is in relationship with the Lord. 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:21.079 And the work of being justified before the Lord has been completed already. 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:30.180 And because that work is done and there's nothing that we can do to better justify ourselves before the Lord, 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:36.560 that all of our labor for the kingdom is viewed as equally valuable to the Lord. 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:44.539 We also saw that there are God-given limits in that, that it's important to rest from our work, 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:53.640 and that all of this was part of God's good design for us to engage as sub-creators in the work that he is doing in the world. 00:03:53.780 --> 00:03:58.719 In the second couple of weeks, we talked about the brokenness of work when things go awry. 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:04.439 Week number three was sort of the brokenness out there, right? 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:13.020 There is fruitlessness and meaninglessness that can crop up in our work because of the way that sin has introduced brokenness into the world. 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:19.579 This idea of fruitlessness was that despite our best efforts, 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:26.159 we might envision an end product of our work that we're not able to achieve, 00:04:26.159 --> 00:04:31.240 either because of our own limitations or because of limitations that we see systemically and structurally, 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.379 or in other individuals in the world. 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:39.459 But the brokenness of work doesn't just exist out there in the world. 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.519 Sin affects our own hearts, and it affects the way that we view and interact with our work. 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.660 So work can become selfish. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:55.139 We can be working for our own end and for our own gain, for our own glory. 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:58.699 And work can reveal our idols in that. 00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:08.899 We can see many ways that we're distorting the point of work to help us achieve financial security, 00:05:09.379 --> 00:05:13.599 to help us achieve the kind of relationships that we want to have, 00:05:13.659 --> 00:05:21.060 and a number of different ways that we might be elevating good things to ultimate things as idols in our work. 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:25.519 So there's a good design for work, but there's brokenness in the midst of work. 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:34.740 And then last week, Kunle helped us sort of put that all together in what I think was called the new conception of work. 00:05:35.259 --> 00:05:39.759 And we talked a lot about the narrative, right? 00:05:40.299 --> 00:05:41.359 Redefining the narrative. 00:05:41.740 --> 00:05:45.579 In any good narrative, there's a beginning where things are good, 00:05:45.579 --> 00:05:48.560 and then there's a problem, and then there's a resolution. 00:05:48.560 --> 00:06:00.120 And we have a goal of just redefining the narrative or better understanding the narrative that we live in in our work 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:05.379 that helps us bring joy and meaning and direction for the work that we're doing, right? 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:08.979 So the creation in the beginning was good. 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.699 Sin entering the world is the problem. 00:06:12.699 --> 00:06:17.500 And the rest of the story is the resolution of God through Jesus, 00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:26.079 redeeming the brokenness of the world and ushering in the new creation in anticipation of that final day 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:31.240 when there's no more sin, no more death, no more tears, no more suffering. 00:06:32.099 --> 00:06:34.839 And we're all part of that story. 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:40.759 And so understanding where we are in our work, in our little sphere of creation, 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:50.839 as part of that broader narrative can help us find meaning and direction and purpose in our work. 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.740 So Kunle, anything I missed in the review? 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:03.180 No, I think we had maybe the only thing to remember is the work under the work, 00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:10.639 that it is sort of tied to the point around idolatry, but sometimes it is not just about the work. 00:07:11.400 --> 00:07:13.360 As an example, I always laugh at that. 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:21.860 You know, they only pay, they pay the president of the United States what they pay mid-level executives in technology companies, 00:07:21.860 --> 00:07:24.520 but nobody wants to be president for the salary, right? 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:28.060 Like, it is just like the work underneath the work. 00:07:28.060 --> 00:07:38.280 There are multiple motivations and that, in our case, often there is an identity that is beyond the back of the work that is very subtle. 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:44.400 I think sometimes it's only through circumstances that God brings our way that we kind of realize, like, why exactly am I working? 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:51.139 Sometimes it is the anxieties that we have that reveal the work underneath the work, but through the power of the gospel. 00:07:51.359 --> 00:07:58.759 Like, when the gospel frees us, if we can do nothing to earn God's favor, how much more do we, 00:07:58.859 --> 00:08:03.899 it's nothing else of that significance in any case, or in any earthly significance, 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:10.159 and then we are set free to work as God designed. 00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:11.279 So, let's just do it. 00:08:11.479 --> 00:08:11.859 Great. 00:08:11.860 --> 00:08:23.259 So, again, the hope is that we could take some time together to interact with this in some specific and helpful ways. 00:08:23.379 --> 00:08:27.920 You know, that's a great summary, but in a lot of ways it's still pretty abstract, 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.899 and there are probably some very specific questions that we all have because everybody works, right? 00:08:32.899 --> 00:08:42.879 And we all encounter questions about how we think and feel about our work, how we should be reacting in certain situations in our work, 00:08:43.079 --> 00:08:48.779 and the possibilities of things that we could address are sort of endless. 00:08:48.779 --> 00:08:52.799 And so, we, as I said, have a few things that we can discuss. 00:08:53.439 --> 00:09:01.799 I'll start off with one, but we would welcome additional questions after this. 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.659 And also, as you have been thinking about this and interacting with these concepts, 00:09:07.979 --> 00:09:13.679 we would just love for this to be a helpful discussion that can benefit everybody. 00:09:13.899 --> 00:09:16.679 So, it doesn't just have to be sort of a one-way Q&A. 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.719 So, I'll just start. 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:26.179 The first, one of the first questions that I got was around ambition. 00:09:26.699 --> 00:09:29.639 How do we think about professional ambition? 00:09:29.959 --> 00:09:32.059 Is that an okay thing? 00:09:32.059 --> 00:09:34.899 Is it purely sinful? 00:09:35.479 --> 00:09:40.339 Or should we all be always thinking about how we're going to get better and grow in our jobs? 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:41.000 Yeah, Ivor. 00:09:41.439 --> 00:09:44.119 It depends on how far they take it. 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:46.259 Okay, say more about that. 00:09:46.619 --> 00:09:47.179 Yeah, okay. 00:09:47.839 --> 00:09:53.779 If the person is driven, and let's other things slide in their life, 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.919 like family or, you know, church or whatever, 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:05.959 in order to impress their bosses so they can move up. 00:10:07.419 --> 00:10:09.919 Yeah, I think that's a great response, 00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:15.779 that there's a balance that we need to be maintaining in the work that we pursue. 00:10:16.199 --> 00:10:16.659 Yeah, Susan. 00:10:16.659 --> 00:10:19.559 So, the question I was going to ask that actually overlaps. 00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:20.019 Okay. 00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:22.259 Because now, there's just boundaries at work. 00:10:22.819 --> 00:10:23.159 Okay. 00:10:23.259 --> 00:10:26.399 Because as a Christian, you desire us to serve. 00:10:26.579 --> 00:10:26.939 Oh, yeah. 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:36.680 But we've all been in situations where they will gladly let you serve until you are hanging on by your fingernails. 00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:43.980 So, how to communicate, how to get the right runway. 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:44.800 Okay. 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:46.460 How to get on the right trajectory. 00:10:47.040 --> 00:10:47.400 Yeah. 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:48.039 Okay. 00:10:48.379 --> 00:10:52.699 So, for the sake of the recording, I'm going to try to repeat your question, 00:10:53.199 --> 00:11:04.279 which is essentially, how do we work well for the Lord while also implementing good and healthy boundaries in the work that we do? 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:05.240 More than one. 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:06.159 Ivor. 00:11:06.379 --> 00:11:07.279 I'd like to add something. 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:07.860 Okay. 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:11.000 I was a union member once in my working life. 00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:14.940 And often, I got caught between management and the union. 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.659 And, you know, I'll give you for instance. 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:27.840 According to the union, you should work as hard as the slowest or weakest member of your team. 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:34.180 And according to management, they want you to give your best all the time. 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.040 So, what do you do as a Christian? 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:39.759 Yes. 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.759 I have an episode of working. 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:45.919 My boss is a Christian. 00:11:47.319 --> 00:11:49.279 I just recently retired. 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:56.019 But she would talk to us about being culture carriers, social work, going in and trying to change the culture. 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:08.480 And I think that at work, not only did I identify as being a social worker and being a helper, but also as a Christian. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:17.019 So, there would be discussions in my office about, in a negative way, towards Christianity. 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.800 And I just continued to identify as what I was. 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:23.960 But also bring something else into it. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:31.279 When someone would say something critical, I don't understand why she said that, 00:12:31.340 --> 00:12:36.120 why she was also sympathetic towards another group in the Middle East. 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:39.720 Do not say because she has empathy and because everyone is suffering. 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:46.659 Because, you know, so kind of trying to change culture also. 00:12:47.740 --> 00:12:51.799 I think where I worked, I know what you're talking about. 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:57.879 Because even where we didn't have a union, but I think people do get upset when you work hard and you give more. 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.759 Because then they're afraid they'll be expected of that sometimes. 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.919 So, as long as you kind of do it in a quiet way, people don't mind. 00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:08.539 Because then they start giving you the more typical cases. 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.340 Which, those are the cases you want, anyway. 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:12.879 Those are the cases you want. 00:13:12.939 --> 00:13:14.460 Even when I worked in special ed. 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:16.500 All the kids that were the toughest. 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:21.019 Like one day, I came back and one of the behaviorists came out and said, 00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.559 your son, because I consider him like a son. 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:25.379 He wasn't my son. 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.919 They had to, the squat team had to come take him out. 00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:31.580 Something, you know. 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:37.480 But I always, for some reason, gravitated towards the children that they thought were more difficult. 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.179 But that was just my thing. 00:13:40.340 --> 00:13:41.120 That's great. 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.539 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:44.679 I think that's really helpful. 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:46.199 And this is awesome. 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:55.839 So, now I think, so I've heard, I think, three or four distinct questions or topics already come up. 00:13:55.939 --> 00:13:57.059 Which, this is awesome. 00:13:57.179 --> 00:13:58.479 This is exactly what we wanted to do. 00:13:58.599 --> 00:14:00.620 But so, we started off with ambition. 00:14:01.359 --> 00:14:06.899 We got to boundaries, which is another separate question. 00:14:06.899 --> 00:14:22.679 I think there's an aspect of what Ivor was saying, which is, how do we think about respecting authority and hierarchy as a Christian in the way that we interact with either our union members or our management? 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:35.799 And then I think there's an aspect of how do we, how do we be salt and light as we engage in the cultural cultivation of creation? 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.740 Kind of like we've discussed in the last few weeks. 00:14:41.259 --> 00:14:56.899 So, let me, my hope is that we can try to take some of these in chunks and tie them back to some of the principles that we've discussed over the last five weeks so that we can try to get our hands around how we might be thinking about these wells. 00:14:56.899 --> 00:14:58.840 So, let me start with ambition. 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:06.779 And I think one of the things that I wanted to highlight with ambition is it's nuanced. 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:11.899 And I think that's going to be an answer to almost everything that is going to come up. 00:15:12.079 --> 00:15:13.899 And so, it depends. 00:15:14.179 --> 00:15:14.659 It depends. 00:15:14.819 --> 00:15:21.559 So, I think that there is a good and right kind of ambition. 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:28.979 The nature of ambition is that there's more to do, right? 00:15:29.059 --> 00:15:32.779 We look around us and we say, there is more to do here. 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:33.859 There's more to do here. 00:15:33.939 --> 00:15:34.939 There's more to do here. 00:15:35.599 --> 00:15:45.879 And ambition comes in and says, in a good way, I desire to do more and I think I can do more. 00:15:45.879 --> 00:16:00.480 And I think that ties back to the first couple of weeks where we recognize that God designed us to work and that he's designed us to work in unique ways in specific spheres of creation, right? 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:14.980 So, I think it's a good thing to look at your work or look around you and say, I would love the opportunity to step in and make a difference over here where I'm not already doing that. 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:27.100 And I think where the dangerous shift comes in is not that I can do more and I desire to do more, but that I deserve to do more or I must do more, right? 00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:39.960 And I think that gets into, I think that starts to overlap maybe with some of the boundaries conversation, with the respect for authority conversation, these other kinds of things. 00:16:40.040 --> 00:16:49.360 Because now, we're not off, our ambition is not in service to the cultivation of God's creation. 00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:54.759 It's in service primarily to our own ends in our own glory. 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.059 And so, I think for me, it's never really binary, right? 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:10.319 The idea of sin isn't that it makes everything as bad as possible all of the time, but it does affect everything in some way all of the time, right? 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:19.799 And so, we have to sort of look at our own professional ambition and say, I recognize that I desire to do more in this sphere over here. 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:38.119 But when I start to detect in my own heart or maybe other people detect in our behavior that we're trying to sort of control the ends, when we're trying to control the outcome, 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:50.739 it becomes a little bit dangerous to say, it has to be this way or else there is some problem that's not being addressed. 00:17:51.179 --> 00:17:55.939 So, that's a kind of, Kunle? 00:17:55.940 --> 00:17:57.620 No, I would add to that. 00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.960 I think that's a pretty good framework if you think about the progression of questions. 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.640 I think there's a second element of why. 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:07.200 Why do you want to? 00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:08.940 Like, it's like, so it depends. 00:18:09.019 --> 00:18:12.259 When I think, Alex, what you said about it depends, I think it's great. 00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:13.200 It's going to apply. 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:16.160 But oftentimes, it always comes to why. 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:23.360 One, and then two is, what does this, how does this intersect with other responsibilities that God has given me? 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:29.560 So, I would like to do more, but hey, I'm not doing enough at home. 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.540 So, like, it gets, if it's like, if you're working outside. 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.480 But God has also called me to do another thing. 00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:42.220 And so, how does it, how does it, how does it balance with that? 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:48.480 One example, in, I think it's in Acts chapter 6, when there was a quarrel about the distribution of food. 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:53.100 The apostles were like, we cannot leave preaching to serve tables. 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:57.339 Not like it was bad, it was just, they had another responsibility. 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:03.339 And so, if they were like, well, we would do this and that, then it would have done neither of them well. 00:19:03.339 --> 00:19:13.379 And so, I think, just why are you doing it if it's often for self-glory or the, or are you doing it for the good of, you know, this would be good. 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:16.359 Even if nobody saw me doing this, this would be good to do. 00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:18.819 This would be good because, you know, God would be glorified. 00:19:18.899 --> 00:19:20.159 This would be beneficial to everyone. 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:28.500 Yeah, I think, then do more as long as it doesn't, you know, come against other constraints that God has given us. 00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:31.679 So, that would be the only filter I would add there. 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.560 You feel compelled because it may be showing the love of Christ. 00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:41.700 Sort of, you know, helping people who feel abandoned. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:46.519 And you just, I don't know, sometimes. 00:19:47.560 --> 00:19:49.259 I like that though, the lie. 00:19:50.080 --> 00:19:54.759 You just feel compelled because hopefully it's God compelling you. 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:55.120 Yeah. 00:19:55.340 --> 00:20:01.600 You can't really rest if you feel like, you know, I've got this, there's this, 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.299 and it's compelling. 00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:04.580 Yeah. 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.259 I think I saw, yeah, Jack. 00:20:07.460 --> 00:20:11.140 I think we tend to be critical of antelope. 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:12.140 Mm-hmm. 00:20:12.140 --> 00:20:15.880 So, where there's a lot of really good things that happen from it. 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:21.200 Like, the president of, or the chairman of, Goya is a Christian. 00:20:22.060 --> 00:20:26.259 And he actually quotes scripture in some of his speeches, which God helps him today. 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:27.140 Mm-hmm. 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:28.740 So, if he doesn't get stoned. 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:32.960 But, I'm sure he would have to be very ambitious. 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.859 And I even think he didn't have to do some pretty difficult things to get the chairman. 00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:37.859 00:20:38.859 --> 00:20:46.559 And I'm sure he's a lot better through his employees and stuff than most people. 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:52.220 And another case was my son was in, he's in, was in IT. 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:57.319 And he, he worked with a lot of, and he used to talk about the empty suits all the time and everything. 00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:02.399 And I said, yeah, but if you work hard and you become an empty suit, you can make it better for others. 00:21:02.399 --> 00:21:02.899 Mm-hmm. 00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:06.680 And sure enough, he became, he got out there pretty good. 00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:11.700 And he did, he did so many great things for his team. 00:21:11.860 --> 00:21:13.480 He even gave his bosses to them. 00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:18.040 He was, but, you know, so a lot didn't happen. 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:20.519 You know, you have to be ambitious to get in a position to help people. 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.580 I think that's a really helpful point. 00:21:24.579 --> 00:21:39.579 I don't think, and we certainly do not want to demonize ambition because ambition can be a God-given motivation to accomplish the work that he's called us to do. 00:21:40.939 --> 00:21:50.939 And I do think that God uses ambition in certain people to bring them to certain positions for the good of his kingdom. 00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:52.019 Right. 00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:57.259 And so I think it's, it's really helpful to, to call that out. 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.920 And I think there's an element of work to be done. 00:22:02.639 --> 00:22:10.960 I think if you're in your current position and thinking, I'd love to grow, you know, I envision myself as, as CEO one day. 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:14.559 There is work to be done to do that. 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:14.879 Right. 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:29.040 And it's okay to put in the effort to build the foundation that you see as in, in wisdom as necessary to get to this place where you feel like God might be leading you. 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:42.920 I think the danger is when you're not trying to build the foundation on the rock, but that you're trying to build the foundation for yourself and make it happen in your own effort at all costs. 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:43.339 Right. 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:48.240 We have to, at some point say, I think that God is leading me in this direction. 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.359 And I recognize that I could be wrong. 00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:56.500 And so in my wisdom, I'm going to do everything that I can to pursue this with my whole heart. 00:22:56.500 --> 00:23:06.740 Um, but I'm, I'm not going to, if it doesn't happen, then Lord, you, your will be done, not my will be done. 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:07.240 Yeah. 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:12.519 And then maybe two, two things, uh, to emphasize something that Alex just said. 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.119 I think we all have blind spots. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:20.759 So community and doing it to people is helpful because, you know, the Bible says the heart is deceitful. 00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:21.599 Yeah. 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.460 Like, Oh, no, your heart can deceive you. 00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:26.980 And so community helps us with that. 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:37.660 The second thing is like, it is good, but as Christians, ambition is not the only thing that can get us where we need to go. 00:23:37.860 --> 00:23:40.140 And I just wanted to give Joseph was an example. 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:49.620 He did not, at the time he was, he was not, he wasn't like, Oh man, I'm going to be the best prisoner guard in this prison so that one day I could potentially do that. 00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:54.299 And that is like, he was faithful in the things that he, in the opportunities that he was given. 00:23:54.419 --> 00:24:00.899 And so sometimes it becomes dangerous when in seeking ambition, we are also not faithful to the things that God has called us to do. 00:24:01.139 --> 00:24:08.219 So primarily it's about faithfully serving and then trusting the Lord who sees in secret to reward and open. 00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:13.380 Like, that's just, and so does it mean that you cannot seek opportunities? 00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:22.900 I don't think, I think we've covered some of that, but I just think that like, it can get a little bit stressful thinking, Oh, if I am not ambitious, I am not going to get. 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.519 And that is, as Christians, that is not true. 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:27.120 It is just not true. 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:34.199 God is the one who orchestrates our path and he's the one who is able to lift us up and put us wherever he wants to. 00:24:34.439 --> 00:24:42.579 And I think, and that way, when we get there, we're also not in a, trying to then guard because you then recognize too that I got there because of God's help. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:47.659 I wanted to quickly touch on the thing around boundaries because I think it is sort of related. 00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:55.380 I think at the core of boundaries would be, really it is about, we all exist in multiple roles. 00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:06.400 Our job, even in the first class, I think it was Richard who was, who called out that that mandate, it was not only, we talked a lot about the cultural mandate, but there was the fruitfulness mandate. 00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:12.240 And I was like, Oh, you know, God called them to be fruitful, to multiply, you know, I mean, fill the earth and to subdue it. 00:25:12.300 --> 00:25:15.960 There is a fruitfulness aspect that is not necessarily about work. 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.279 There's like a multiplication of like building families, building communities. 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:31.900 And so even as we exist as workers today, our lives also contain multitudes, but, and so, but all of them have different callings that God has given us. 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:40.819 And so boundaries reflect one is how am I being responsible to all of the things that God has called me in this particular season? 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:41.640 One. 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:48.620 Um, and so, and then how am I respecting even just the way God made us to work? 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:55.800 So there's the cycles of the rhythms of rest and work we see right from, right from the garden. 00:25:55.800 --> 00:26:04.560 And I think in the first class, we talked about how that, that rhythm is not because it was a pattern that we see later after God and God doesn't rest because he is tired. 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:18.779 There is a, it is instituted not just for our physical rest, but because actually, and I think Keller talks about it in his book, those breaks also help us to refocus on the one who called us to work. 00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:25.500 Uh, like rest as a form of worship, as a form of reorientation towards God who called us to work. 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:35.740 And so, that is how I would bring together all of these elements and then start to shape us with the right constraints. 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:40.559 You can then say, oh, well, actually, I don't know that I can do that because of X. 00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:46.099 Or, you know, like, I can do that because I would have more capacity or its ability to serve. 00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:50.500 So the, it depends, we require, would be the, there is a judgment about the need. 00:26:50.659 --> 00:26:54.599 There is a judgment about your personal responsibilities as God has given you. 00:26:55.199 --> 00:26:58.539 Um, and also the way God has made us to work. 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:08.079 And then the final thing is that sometimes there is like an underlying, some people work too hard because they are doing the work under the work. 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:09.779 They do not rest because of that. 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:13.000 Like the work, being busy is a form of an identity. 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:20.059 Um, and I think the inability to do that, uh, shows that it's not really just about the work. 00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:24.440 And they may need, you know, harder boundaries around the work, um, to manage that. 00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:27.299 Now, the other, it depends, is, is a season, right? 00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:28.200 Uh-huh. 00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:33.160 Medical students and residents have different work boundaries than like, you know, even attendings. 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.500 Uh, because there is, you are in a season of preparation. 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:38.740 Some seasons are more intense than others. 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:40.539 Students pull all-nighters regularly. 00:27:41.059 --> 00:27:42.980 Not, well, hopefully not too regularly. 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.019 But, but it's part of it. 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.779 It's like, this is a season. 00:27:47.059 --> 00:27:53.339 And the idea is that if you have to do that for a season, it's got to be, you got to have a sense of how long is this? 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:54.779 And what's the final end of this? 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:55.940 And what's the goal? 00:27:56.380 --> 00:27:58.740 Uh, because we can also tend towards that. 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:02.359 Tim Keller gives another example in this book, Committing of Marriage. 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:04.000 When they started Redeemer, they worked a lot. 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:05.979 It was a very, it was a lot of work. 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.359 But he and his wife had had a conversation about, you know, it's only going to take three years. 00:28:10.439 --> 00:28:11.379 It's going to be really intentional. 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.399 She was on board with it. 00:28:12.639 --> 00:28:14.240 And after three years, he was still going. 00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:17.579 And then he has this famous China episode where she's breaking plates. 00:28:17.919 --> 00:28:19.359 And like, you told me it was three years. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:26.779 And he recognized that even in the work of the ministry, which is good work, he could also run out, I mean, not have the right boundaries. 00:28:26.919 --> 00:28:32.859 So I think in a nutshell, those would be the considerations I would talk about in terms of boundaries. 00:28:32.859 --> 00:28:51.919 What would we say to, you know, not what I know, but hypothetically, someone who maybe lacked ambition to a degree that maybe they're not fulfilling the cultural mandate as well as maybe they could be? 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:56.359 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:09.959 So how do we, what would we say to someone on the other side of the coin who is not, who is lacking ambition and maybe just inherent motivation in their work? 00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:19.299 I think I would want to know why. 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:19.699 It depends. 00:29:19.959 --> 00:29:20.699 Yeah, it depends. 00:29:21.419 --> 00:29:24.059 I would want to, yes, sorry, Sarah, do you want to say? 00:29:24.059 --> 00:29:29.039 I just, well, I think maybe the question too is like, does God call everyone to ambition? 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.940 So we may be, yep. 00:29:36.139 --> 00:29:39.740 And so I think we need to be careful about the terminology that we're using, right? 00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:50.899 So like ambition, the way that we're talking about ambition here is I, in its best form, I, I can do more and I desire to do more. 00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:59.460 Um, you may be doing good work and you might be satisfied in the work that you're doing and that can be okay. 00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:08.480 I think the nature of Joshua's question is that you're not even fulfilling sort of the baseline expectation of the work. 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:13.000 So not only lacking ambition necessarily, but even lacking motivation. 00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:14.640 Am I understanding the question correctly? 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:18.220 I think it's like, no, I think that is a good follow-up question. 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:18.539 Okay. 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:27.980 Um, because, yeah, I mean, yeah, defining ambition a little more carefully helps, helps kind of clarify that. 00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:33.740 Because, yeah, to your point, like, okay, are you, there's a, there's a question of faithfulness. 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:38.619 Like, are you at your current job, are you striking your duties faithfully? 00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:43.299 If yes, then, well, good, but. 00:30:43.979 --> 00:30:45.859 Should you feel guilty for not wanting more? 00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:49.359 Or like, I don't know, I'm just, not put words in your mouth. 00:30:49.379 --> 00:30:50.239 No, no, that's good. 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:50.859 Maybe to help. 00:30:51.159 --> 00:30:53.459 Elizabeth, did you, I'm sorry, did you want to say something? 00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:53.739 Sorry. 00:30:54.159 --> 00:30:54.359 Yeah. 00:30:54.859 --> 00:31:02.399 I know of several instances where people were offered up management which would move them up. 00:31:02.779 --> 00:31:04.279 I didn't want anything to do with it. 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:05.500 They were happy where they were. 00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:05.940 Yeah. 00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:12.240 And my father was offered to be a foreman several times at the railroad. 00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:13.180 He went good. 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:24.880 And so it would have meant more money and an additional opportunity for advancement, but he didn't want it. 00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:30.599 Because he was happy with the amount of money he was making and the amount of responsibility he had. 00:31:32.299 --> 00:31:34.619 I saw some tentative hands coming up. 00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:35.179 Yeah. 00:31:35.539 --> 00:31:43.939 Just like maybe, I'm not sure if I'm getting it, but I'm wondering if like there's a bit of a defining the difference between ambition and purpose, right? 00:31:43.940 --> 00:31:51.160 I hear people who don't have ambition, but they're a bit more than trying to figure out like, well, what am I supposed to be striving towards? 00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:56.380 Well, sometimes that's purpose outside of the ambition that you have at work. 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.940 And sometimes it should be actually something that you have at work. 00:31:59.620 --> 00:32:01.980 But like, do you have a mooring purpose? 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:02.700 Yeah. 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:06.339 I'm so glad you set that purpose. 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:08.099 That's key. 00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:28.039 I think it's easy to also like listen to some voices in the culture saying, if you're not ambitious, 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:38.839 if you're not seeking to better yourself in all these ways, then that means you're lazy or you're not fulfilling your potential or whatever. 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:44.879 And maybe that's not true in every case. 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:49.680 And then again, seasonality, like Kulain was talking about. 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:57.420 I think there's some seasons when you just, you just get through the work until you are ready for more. 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:00.360 Sarah and then Julia. 00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:07.959 I guess maybe as a thought and a thread actually that pulls a lot of this together, boundaries, you know, difficult casework, 00:33:08.059 --> 00:33:12.059 you know, wanting to take the hardest thing, whether or not ambition should be on the table, 00:33:12.179 --> 00:33:17.059 like is really, all of these are like, it depends. 00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:24.720 And it's like, there's general principles around work that we've hit in a really great way. 00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:29.679 And then there's like, in like general calling, like we're all called to work of some kind. 00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:33.039 And like, there's all the benefits and principles around that. 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:44.019 And there's this thing where like, we also have, actually, God gently and graciously reveals kind of our specific calling also to us. 00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:48.200 We're not just talking about, you know, everyone's called to hold it, you know, whatever. 00:33:48.619 --> 00:33:53.960 But there's also these specific things where we're required to discern, like, I'm gifted in this way. 00:33:54.039 --> 00:34:01.319 So I want the hardest cases because like, I think God's called me to this because of the way he's equipped me and trained me and, you know, these kinds of things. 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:08.380 And like, I might just want to be faithful every day in this same job and, you know, really discerning. 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:10.380 And, you know, we talked about this a little bit. 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:11.599 How do you discern your calling? 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.440 I'm like, really discerning, like we no longer have the law to tell us like right and wrong. 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:17.119 Work is good. 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:17.779 Work is bad. 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:18.400 Whatever, whatever. 00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:27.440 We have the Holy Spirit who like empowers us to discern for me at this time and this season, like what is God calling me to? 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:31.559 And there's no like specific answers I feel like to all of this. 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.200 But I just want to, I guess, kind of preaching to myself a little, I guess, all of a sudden. 00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:45.320 Like these, you know, just the underlying foundation to all of this is like discerning God's calling. 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.180 And I do think, one, we should be open to that and seeking that. 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.000 And God also gently reveals it at a time to us. 00:34:52.700 --> 00:34:55.320 And just the power of all that pulled together. 00:34:56.100 --> 00:34:56.140 Yeah. 00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:59.559 Can I, can I, I agree with that, Sarah. 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.240 I think in the moment while you are waiting for that specific direction, how should you think? 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:05.599 Yeah. 00:35:05.739 --> 00:35:07.399 And then I think there are a couple of things. 00:35:07.479 --> 00:35:09.000 This is where principles are helpful. 00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:13.099 One is be faithful in the work that you have been called to do. 00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:18.079 Two is do good work because that honors the Lord. 00:35:18.779 --> 00:35:24.619 Three, yeah, like, and then three, you know, respect the different areas God has called you to work. 00:35:24.839 --> 00:35:29.039 Always be trying and then try and focus about on the people that you are serving. 00:35:29.279 --> 00:35:31.899 Do good work for the people that you are serving. 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.019 Do it as unto the Lord and be faithful. 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:42.639 And then everything else, honestly, like those corners, like the Lord is like, it's just the same way even managers think. 00:35:42.959 --> 00:35:46.279 It's like they have like a really good employee. 00:35:46.439 --> 00:35:50.199 They are just trying to like direct the person towards the most productive. 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:51.679 The same way with the Lord. 00:35:52.339 --> 00:35:52.679 Be faithful. 00:35:52.779 --> 00:35:58.619 I mean, and I say the same way with the Lord in the sense of like, I think about maybe a little bit in the Bible of the talents, right? 00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:02.299 Like, just do good, faithful work. 00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:03.659 Focus on others. 00:36:04.319 --> 00:36:07.420 Expanding your creative energies in service of others. 00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:09.099 Faithfully as unto the Lord. 00:36:09.359 --> 00:36:11.839 And the remaining, I think you will discern on the side. 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:14.960 I want to make one comment on working faithfully. 00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:17.200 And then I saw Joy's hand and Judy's hand. 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:19.300 And then Justin. 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:20.360 I think there's a lot. 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:25.880 So just really quickly on the idea of working faithfully, I think tying it into the narrative concept. 00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:32.320 When the world is sort of speaking into the work that we're doing and saying you ought to be doing more. 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:35.140 You ought to be preparing. 00:36:35.539 --> 00:36:42.720 There's a lens on that that's not necessarily the biblical lens. 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:52.180 And I think when we're working faithfully, we can take heart knowing that the Lord is in our faithfulness preparing us for whatever he has next. 00:36:52.179 --> 00:37:02.199 So working faithfully is, in a way, putting in the investment into whatever God has next for us. 00:37:02.279 --> 00:37:07.759 And it just might not look the way that the world would tell us that it needs to look. 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:09.639 So I agree. 00:37:09.839 --> 00:37:10.799 I agree with that. 00:37:10.919 --> 00:37:11.679 Joy. 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:11.779 Joy. 00:37:12.219 --> 00:37:15.039 That sort of dovetails with what I was going to say. 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:22.719 I think that as Christians, sometimes it's hard for us to discern what you're talking about. 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.059 Because I agree 100% with what you're talking about. 00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:34.119 But within the church, sometimes the pressure of other people's expectations isn't only from the world. 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:36.300 Sometimes it's in the church as well. 00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:39.000 And it goes to what you were saying about boundaries. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:49.380 So sometimes we sort of have this idea that being ambitious or looking for the next thing can be prideful. 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:51.980 And too much about self. 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:53.380 And that is definitely true. 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.579 But I think sometimes we're also hesitant to encourage people to live into who God made them. 00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:12.079 And to celebrate and enjoy the gifts that God put into them and the talents and the abilities that he gave them. 00:38:12.279 --> 00:38:18.719 And serving others, yes, I'm not taking away from anything that you're saying, but sort of in addition to that, 00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:27.639 that there's something about just celebrating and enjoying who God made you to be and what he gave you to do. 00:38:27.639 --> 00:38:40.539 And sometimes if it doesn't jive with what everyone around you is telling you, sometimes that's just other people's expectations. 00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:44.460 Sometimes it's good advice and it needs to be listened to in its community. 00:38:45.739 --> 00:38:49.480 But that piece of it, I think, should also be considered. 00:38:50.019 --> 00:38:50.199 Yeah. 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.299 Especially with service and boundaries. 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.359 Because I think, especially in the church, it can be very difficult to say no when someone asks you to serve. 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:03.079 Because we all agree that service is good and that we need to be doing it. 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:08.339 And so examining those motives or the call, is it God calling me to do it? 00:39:08.379 --> 00:39:10.460 Is it just that somebody needs this job done? 00:39:10.899 --> 00:39:13.219 It can be really difficult to discern that. 00:39:13.219 --> 00:39:13.739 Yeah. 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:23.439 Before we move on to it, there's a question that we had that I thought, the question about being salt and light and what's the most effective way of being salt and light in the workplace. 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:29.579 Maybe after Ivor and I think Judy, I would love that maybe you could address that. 00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:29.879 Yeah. 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:34.719 Because I think it may tie in, but I don't want us to leave it out talking about that. 00:39:34.939 --> 00:39:35.179 Okay. 00:39:35.179 --> 00:39:37.779 I think, was Judy next? 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:38.619 Yeah. 00:39:38.779 --> 00:39:39.000 Yes. 00:39:39.099 --> 00:39:39.719 I think so, yeah. 00:39:40.379 --> 00:39:45.579 I think one of the things is also working for others and working with others. 00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:50.500 There are times, I know, when you're working in a team and there are things going on. 00:39:51.119 --> 00:40:01.899 And some of the folks that you're working with in their lives, that they may lead you to not be critical if they're not putting in as much. 00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:03.599 Because it's mercy and grace. 00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:10.880 And when you work as a team, there are times when you also have to be giving towards the people you're working with. 00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:11.240 Yeah. 00:40:11.500 --> 00:40:14.720 And, you know, just put in. 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:19.860 I just think that's also where we're put in a place for a reason. 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:20.840 Mm-hmm. 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:21.139 Yeah. 00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:21.900 Thank God. 00:40:22.339 --> 00:40:32.299 I actually, you know, I'm pretty confident that I was in the job I was in because very easily could have hired a male. 00:40:32.299 --> 00:40:38.639 And I don't know if anybody knows anything about social work, but there was a very qualified male social work. 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:41.420 Maybe, probably more qualified than I was. 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:46.460 And for some reason, I got the job. 00:40:47.059 --> 00:40:52.019 So I think sometimes, and I'm very humble, I mean, it's, yeah. 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:57.539 But what I'm saying is, yeah, I think we, rather than being critical of others or they're not pulling their weight, 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:04.760 there are times when we need to also be encouraging and pull for somebody else. 00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:04.940 Yeah. 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:05.260 Yeah. 00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:05.800 Yeah. 00:41:06.019 --> 00:41:06.539 That's great. 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:07.099 Thanks. 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.180 I think, was it Ivor or Justin or both that had questions? 00:41:11.420 --> 00:41:12.139 Both. 00:41:12.380 --> 00:41:12.740 Both? 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:13.059 Okay. 00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:13.700 All right. 00:41:13.740 --> 00:41:13.940 All right. 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:21.780 Yeah, I, this is just going back to Jocker's question on, like, not enough ambition. 00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:29.000 And I think Jocker's kind of touched on this a little bit, but, like, you kind of have to consider these things in context, 00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:31.579 like the totality of your God-given desires. 00:41:32.019 --> 00:41:40.000 Like, if God's calling you to be a parent, for example, perhaps your entry-level part-time job is not going to, 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.840 and maybe that is a sign that there's lacking ambition. 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:48.780 But likewise, maybe if you're working 95 hours a week and God's calling you to be a parent, 00:41:49.179 --> 00:41:57.639 there's, like, considering specifically God-given desires in community and looking for points of, 00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:11.559 like, legal expositivity might be a way to see where something is lacking or past its point of value. 00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:13.179 Yeah, for sure. 00:42:15.579 --> 00:42:16.539 Ivor, did you hear? 00:42:16.539 --> 00:42:21.139 Ivor, I just want, when you're caught between management and the union, 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.619 what I did was concentrate on the most people I am in my work, 00:42:25.799 --> 00:42:31.039 doing the best I could do within the context, you know? 00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:36.139 And I think that's the best approach, especially in a union environment. 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:41.119 And some people didn't, you know? 00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:41.440 Yeah. 00:42:41.659 --> 00:42:42.820 So it showed up. 00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:49.719 Yeah, I think that's really helpful and dovetails nicely into the salt and light conversation, 00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:53.239 because a few times, I think, in the last few weeks, 00:42:53.239 --> 00:43:00.379 we heard cropping up in questions and responses this idea that as we're working, 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:11.019 that our work, we are implicitly or explicitly evangelizing and witnessing to our coworkers 00:43:11.019 --> 00:43:13.959 as we engage in our work. 00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:22.059 And so I wondered if there have been questions around what it looks like to witness well, 00:43:22.059 --> 00:43:24.539 to be salt and light well in our work. 00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:26.579 And so we thought through that a little bit. 00:43:27.259 --> 00:43:30.400 And again, I think it sort of depends. 00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:31.139 It's nuanced. 00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:41.340 But as I was reflecting on that idea, I think we can go in one of two directions. 00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:48.340 We can think of our work like we can say the primary point of our work is cultivation of creation. 00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:53.480 And then we tend to really prioritize that maybe at the expense. 00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:58.880 If I just show up to my job and I do a good job, then I'm fulfilling my purpose. 00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:07.720 Alternatively, we can come over here and say the primary point of work is witnessing, 00:44:08.220 --> 00:44:10.420 making disciples, sharing the good news. 00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:15.960 And the actual work that I'm engaging in when I'm there doing it is secondary. 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:26.340 And I think both of those are sort of not reflective of the equal and total calling that we have in our jobs. 00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:29.220 And I think all of the things that we've talked about today are relevant. 00:44:29.740 --> 00:44:30.700 There's seasonality. 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:32.380 It's context dependent. 00:44:32.380 --> 00:44:37.840 Like, you know, you might have already shared the good news and nobody was receptive. 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:41.320 And you kind of, you know, shake the dust off your feet and you say, 00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:43.960 I've done what I can do and I'm still going to engage in the work that I'm doing. 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:48.300 Or you might say like, hey, I'm going to do my work. 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:52.579 But like God's doing really great things in this group of people that I'm working with. 00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:56.280 And I really want to like put in some extra effort to engage in that. 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.620 And all of those can be good things. 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:07.000 But I guess what I was reflecting on is that I wouldn't want to lose one focus or the other 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.560 as I'm thinking about engaging in my work. 00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:16.620 That being salt and light in our work is a good and important part of our work. 00:45:16.620 --> 00:45:24.820 But it is not the only part of our work because cultivating creation is something that God has called us to do. 00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:26.880 So that was my thought on that. 00:45:26.980 --> 00:45:27.140 Yeah. 00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:32.300 I think I was going to throw it open to how people have done it effectively. 00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:39.820 But we all work today, especially in the Northeast, work in increasingly secular environments 00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:45.320 where many people just don't think about spiritual things. 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:55.019 And I think when we, how do we, maybe a big, how can we share the gospel or talk about, you know, 00:45:55.140 --> 00:46:00.480 our faith in ways that are also like context appropriate or context dependent? 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:07.260 I think first is like find ways to let people know that you're a Christian. 00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:07.700 Yeah. 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:08.700 Yeah. 00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:14.220 We're sometimes increasingly secular, but in some circles, just increasingly like someone else, increasingly pagan. 00:46:14.620 --> 00:46:17.680 We're all sorts of different ideas about religion. 00:46:17.980 --> 00:46:20.740 And so, yeah, like maybe sometimes you get, oh, that's great. 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:21.640 I'm glad it works for you. 00:46:21.700 --> 00:46:23.940 But at least like talk about it. 00:46:24.040 --> 00:46:26.300 You know, there's little key things like what did you do on Sunday? 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:29.460 You don't edit out Sunday morning and talk about the rest of your Sunday. 00:46:29.580 --> 00:46:31.580 You can talk about all you did on Sunday. 00:46:31.579 --> 00:46:33.699 You can talk about Christmas. 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:42.299 There's natural ways that spark curiosity and like seeing which hearts God is tugging that you can then speak to. 00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:48.599 There is also doing that in the context of the relationships that you have. 00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:55.259 You start with people who you work with pretty regularly, who kind of know you in totality. 00:46:55.799 --> 00:46:59.039 And that way there's like a much lower barrier to start the conversation. 00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:05.259 It's, yeah, people you know at work, I think often are the better places where you can share. 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:13.820 But I think do not, not ignoring the calling, the primary purpose for which you are there. 00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:14.579 Right. 00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:24.980 It's not a, it's not a way of using excellence as a way of preaching the gospel because that I think also has its own pitfalls. 00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:30.340 But recognizing too that like, you know, God also doing good, faithful work. 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:35.039 Sometimes we have an opportunity to talk to others about what motivates our work. 00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.579 Like the difference is actually what motivates our work. 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:46.440 So in the class I shared, in the third class or in last class, I think, I shared about this two runners competing for the Olympics. 00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:50.500 One is running because that's the only way he can justify his existence. 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:54.960 Another is running because he feels God's pleasure when he runs. 00:47:55.460 --> 00:47:57.639 They can talk about, they are both running. 00:47:57.820 --> 00:48:04.039 They are probably both talking about training tips and running actual, in the practice of running, they can both discuss. 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.880 One is able to share the gospel in a very context applicable way. 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:13.079 I actually can put in all of my effort because I do not worry about failure. 00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.559 Because someone else is taking, you know, all of the things I am striving for. 00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:21.819 And that I think would resonate in a way that somebody who doesn't run is like, ah, who cares about running? 00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:22.900 He's like, yeah, forget that. 00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:26.900 But it is so, those would be additional elements. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:28.059 I think Alex is right. 00:48:28.219 --> 00:48:31.500 Like bringing, not sacrificing one toward the other. 00:48:31.500 --> 00:48:41.179 Because sometimes our just focusing on evangelizing through excellence is an excuse for being cowardly about your faith. 00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:43.039 That's just, we're just like, oh, you know what? 00:48:43.420 --> 00:48:44.739 I'm just going to take the safe route. 00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:53.059 And sometimes also the other side is, like Alex also said, is not recognizing that God actually has very good purposes through our work. 00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:57.159 And then you are in some way using that as an excuse to not do good work. 00:48:57.460 --> 00:48:58.940 And so it's the integration. 00:48:58.940 --> 00:49:03.000 And actually Keller addresses both of these in the first chapter of the book. 00:49:03.539 --> 00:49:06.500 And he talks about it even later in the last section. 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:09.980 And when he calls it dualism, like versus integration. 00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:16.240 That we have this idea of separating our work and faith in these different ways. 00:49:16.300 --> 00:49:17.920 And it's just kind of one leg in. 00:49:18.240 --> 00:49:22.460 But there is a way of integration that I think a lot of the concepts we've tried to cover in the book. 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:23.500 I've addressed. 00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:27.659 So it seems like I have a question. 00:49:28.940 --> 00:49:32.320 I have a question about this other way. 00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:34.039 And I haven't even had a prayer. 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:35.840 But you can probably address this. 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:36.300 It's fine. 00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:36.880 Okay. 00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:36.940 Okay. 00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:45.780 We are close to the top of the hour. 00:49:46.200 --> 00:49:48.880 So we should probably... 00:49:49.680 --> 00:49:53.019 I wanted to bring it up because I thought it was a question most people were doing. 00:49:53.200 --> 00:49:56.039 But I think people are like, yeah, we got that already. 00:49:56.780 --> 00:49:58.120 So praise the Lord then. 00:49:58.380 --> 00:50:00.760 That is not something that is as much of an issue. 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:01.760 Okay. 00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:04.240 Okay. 00:50:04.620 --> 00:50:06.480 Well, thanks, everybody. 00:50:06.620 --> 00:50:10.160 This has been really fun for us. 00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:16.240 And just appreciate all of your engagement with the content and the questions. 00:50:16.420 --> 00:50:18.020 So thank you for being here. 00:50:18.019 --> 00:50:21.000 Kume, you want to close us in prayer? 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:21.980 Yeah. 00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:22.759 I will close us. 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:26.099 But also, we are happy to talk and share our experience. 00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:29.259 I think a lot of people here have been working some longer than we have. 00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:33.179 So also look at people around you and also ask their experience as well. 00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:42.699 But our hope is that the Lord will have used this to help us just work more faithfully and fruitfully to his glory in our work. 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:43.739 So let's pray. 00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:49.559 Lord Jesus, we thank you that you give us work to do that we know is good. 00:50:49.899 --> 00:50:50.199 Oh, God. 00:50:50.279 --> 00:50:57.359 Even sometimes when we cannot see it immediately, oh, Lord, we trust your greater purpose is of working all things for your glory. 00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:13.380 We ask that in the realms you've called us, oh, Lord, at home, in the marketplace, in the direct work of the kingdom, Lord, may we be your vessels accomplishing your good purposes, oh, Lord. 00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:20.099 Father, you know the specific areas and questions about work that we all struggle with, God. 00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:32.460 We just ask for your spirit to continue to make that clearer to us of how you just want us, oh, God, to be responding in those situations, Lord. 00:51:33.319 --> 00:51:37.779 In all of these, oh, God, may you just be glorified in the work that we do, oh, Lord. 00:51:38.019 --> 00:51:43.440 And may we continue that good purpose you have, oh, Lord, of cultivating the earth. 00:51:44.819 --> 00:51:46.039 In Jesus' name we pray. 00:51:46.460 --> 00:51:46.860 Amen. 00:51:47.139 --> 00:51:47.380 Amen. 00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:48.799 All right. 00:51:48.799 --> 00:51:49.400 Thanks, everyone. 00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:50.339 Thanks.