Let me start that. All right, we are in our fourth session of our class on gender and sexuality,
and I have just put the overall shape of the class on the front again. I'm not going to go over it,
but there's a flow to this class. We're sort of trying to work within the biblical story
of how we're created by God, corrupted by sin, redeemed by Christ, and awaiting glory.
So, in the next few weeks, what we're going to do is take some challenging topics that we face
sort of as we live in the midst of a broken world and as we look forward to the redemption that Christ has promised.
So, again, briefly where we've been. The first week we talked about how we're both beautiful and broken,
made in God's image, but broken by sin. And then we looked at how Christ has come to redeem us,
including our bodies, and that can look like marriage can bear witness to Christ's redemption,
and a life of consecrated Christian singleness can bear witness to Christ's redemption.
We looked at the different ways that the church needs both single and married people living their lives
devoted to Christ in order to sort of picture the fullness of the redemption that Christ has come to bring.
So, today we are going to jump into the topic of homosexuality.
Specifically, we're going to focus on what the Bible says to Christians
and how we should live within the Christian church.
And next week, I've switched up the schedule a bit, but so next week we're going to look at transgender identity,
and then the next week we're going to specifically think about how do we relate to our neighbors
in the world, sort of people who aren't professing Christians,
or people who aren't, or people outside of the church.
How should we as Christians relate to others in the world around these questions?
So, today I want to focus on sort of within the church,
but we will take some time to think about how do we bear witness to Christ in the world.
So, the two questions I want to address are,
one, what does the Bible actually say about homosexuality?
And second, what does redemption, what does a redemptive path look like
if I'm a same-sex, for a same-sex attracted Christian?
So, first, what does the Bible actually say about homosexuality?
And, you know, for nearly, for almost all of the history of the church,
the Christian church has been pretty unanimous in its sort of verdict on this question.
The traditional view is that God designed sex for male and female marriage only,
and therefore sexual activity between two men or two women is not in accordance with God's plan
for his redeemed people, and is one example of the sin that afflicts all fallen humanity.
So, that's often referred to as the traditional view.
Now, in the past maybe 50 years or so,
some Christians, initially within more mainline Protestant denominations,
but more recently, people who would identify as evangelical Christians,
have argued that the traditional view is wrong.
And, rather, the church should affirm same-sex unions,
and adopt what's often called an affirming view.
So, some denominations, particularly mainline Protestant denominations,
have officially sort of adopted that view.
But more recently, there are people from evangelical traditions
who are advocating this view as well, and I've listed a few.
Now, other Christians are sort of somewhere in the middle on this.
And some people have come out explicitly and sort of said,
you know what, we think that we should just sort of call a truce.
This has been such a divisive issue within the church,
you know, and we should just sort of agree to disagree,
and let everybody be, you know.
And so, the church has found ways to sort of agree to disagree respectfully,
but still recognize each other as members in good standing of the body of Christ,
about a variety of issues, you know.
How and when will Jesus come again?
You know, some of the issues we talked about, about science and faith,
and, you know, the creation story.
Or, you know, infant versus believer's baptism, right?
Now, different churches hold different positions,
but we can at least recognize that people who hold another position
can still be believers in the same gospel,
and we can still be sort of in good fellowship with each other,
you know, in some way or other.
And so, some people say, well, can we just sort of treat homosexuality
as one of these disputable matters, right?
Romans 14, Paul says, some issues are disputable,
and, you know, food sect,
he gives some examples,
observing special days, eating certain foods,
different Christians will do, sort of,
live according to their convictions,
can we just live and let live?
So, those are sort of the three views.
And another version of this third view is,
let's just avoid talking about this issue.
Okay?
It's not sort of explicitly stating,
let's agree to disagree.
It's just saying,
let's avoid this issue as much as we can.
And some churches are trying to do that.
It doesn't,
it doesn't last very long, but,
but anyway.
So, now, before we,
so I want to consider what people are saying
in regards to these views.
Before we dive into,
sort of, examining biblical passages
and examining different views,
I also just want to step back and say,
almost nobody changes their views on this topic
purely through an extensive study of scripture
and reading scholarly books.
For most people today,
this question also has significant personal
and emotional and relational ramifications.
questions like,
what about my gay brother,
sister,
son,
daughter,
aunt,
uncle,
friend,
neighbor?
You know,
many people argue that the traditional view
has been harmful
to people who identify as
LGBT,
many of whom have lived under
a cloud of fear and shame.
Or,
for people who do experience same-sex attraction,
a question may be,
why hasn't God taken this away?
I've begged and pleaded and prayed
more than anything else that God would.
And yet,
it's still here.
And I don't feel a shred of attraction
to the opposite sex.
And practically,
if I think about a life of celibacy,
can that actually be a life of flourishing?
Right?
So,
these are some of the questions
that I think
people are wrestling with
and many of us are wrestling with.
And so,
I don't,
you know,
if you're talking with another Christian
who maybe has doubt,
say,
if you hold the traditional view
and you're talking with another Christian
who has doubts about the traditional view
or who holds one of these other views,
I don't think that the best approach
is just immediately to quote,
you know,
a few scripture passages
that seem to settle the issue.
But I think
it's important to
sort of
listen and understand,
like,
what are the concerns
you're wrestling with
and how does scripture speak
to those concerns?
Right?
I've prayed and asked God
to take this away
and God hasn't taken this away.
Well,
that's a question about
unanswered prayer.
Right?
It's not really a question about
what does the Bible say
about homosexuality?
Right?
Now,
yes,
it's connected to that,
but there are often
sort of broader issues
that we need,
that we can
sort of work through together.
All right.
Having said that,
I want to look briefly
at specific texts
because,
number one,
we're committed as a church
to following
and obeying the Bible
and letting our views
be shaped by the scriptures
and not only by
our personal feelings
and emotional struggles
and relational contexts
and ultimately,
we believe God gave us
the Bible for our good.
So,
now again,
over the last three weeks,
I've tried to sort of
paint a big picture view
of what sort of God's plan
for gender and sexuality.
homosexuality.
And I don't think
that I've mentioned
homosexuality directly
at all,
but,
you know,
if you sort of,
if you,
you know,
I've done this deliberately.
I didn't start with this lesson
because I think it's important
also
to sort of
have this bigger view
first
before we jump into
some of these challenging
topics.
So,
again,
I think
those can be
good conversations
about sort of
everything we've talked
about the last three weeks
as well.
Anyway,
having said that,
there are six Bible passages,
six or seven,
that address homosexuality
in particular.
Let me go briefly
through them.
First is Genesis 19,
Sodom and Gomorrah.
Right?
That's where the word
sodomy comes from.
Briefly,
this is an account
of homosexual rape.
It is not an account
of consensual sex.
Later Bible passages
condemn Sodom
for a wide range of sins,
including pride,
gluttony,
neglecting to help the poor,
hostility towards
God's messengers,
as well as
sexual immorality.
So,
the example of Sodom and Gomorrah
by itself,
I think,
is not decisive
for the modern question
of,
should the church
approve of
and bless
consensual
same-sex relationships?
So,
I don't think
that's the best
text to
quote,
one way or the other.
Then,
we go to Leviticus.
Laws of the Old Testament,
you shall not lie
with a male
as with a woman,
it is an abomination.
And Leviticus 20.13
prescribes the death
penalty
for such acts,
as well as
other violations
of the marriage covenant,
including adultery,
incest,
and bestiality.
Now,
pretty much everyone agrees
that Leviticus
prohibited gay sex
within ancient Israel.
The question is,
do these laws
still apply
to Christians today?
And some people
will say,
why are Christians
saying that Leviticus
even matters?
Leviticus says
you shouldn't eat
shrimp and pork,
and most of us
feel completely free
to eat shrimp and pork.
It says you shouldn't
have clothes
that are mixed
of, you know,
cotton and linen
or two different fabrics,
and probably everything
I'm wearing
has more than
one fabric,
right?
Now,
the big picture,
though,
is there's basically
two kinds of laws
in the Old Testament.
There's ceremonial laws
which are fulfilled
in the coming of Jesus,
and so Christians
don't obey
the ceremonial laws.
Clean and unclean foods,
different kinds of clothing,
you know,
all the sacrifices,
right?
They're all fulfilled
in the person of Jesus.
They're sort of shadows
of who Christ is.
But the moral laws,
love your neighbor
as yourself,
honor your father
and mother,
don't murder,
don't steal,
don't commit adultery,
don't lie,
don't covet,
well, all of those
we say,
oh, yes,
as Christians,
oh, yeah,
we still obey those.
And guess what?
All of those
are also reaffirmed
in the New Testament.
So that's the best way
to tell,
you know,
does Leviticus matter,
should we obey
a law in Leviticus
is,
does the New Testament
reaffirm it?
Well,
then to answer that,
we can go to
1 Corinthians 6,
9 to 11,
in which it says,
do not be deceived,
neither the sexually immoral,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor men who practice
homosexuality,
nor thieves,
nor the greedy,
nor drunkards,
nor revilers,
nor swindlers
will inherit God's kingdom.
Now,
there's a similar verse
in 1 Timothy,
chapter 1,
and both of these verses
actually sort of follow
the pattern
of the Ten Commandments.
So they're reaffirming
don't commit adultery,
right,
nor thieves,
right,
don't steal,
nor,
so revilers,
that would be in the category
of bearing false witness,
and greedy,
could be interpreted
as coveting.
So,
so it's sort of
reaffirming those,
particularly the second half
of the Ten Commandments,
as well as idolaters,
right,
the first,
that's the first four
of the Ten Commandments,
and the list in 1 Timothy
sort of follows
the shape of the Ten Commandments
even more explicitly.
But included
in both of those lists
is,
are two words,
well,
two words in 1 Corinthians
and one in
Arsino Koitai
is in 1 Timothy
that are translated
men who practice homosexuality.
Now,
some scholars
who
take an affirming view
argue
Paul was just talking about
homosexual prostitution
or exploitation,
right,
in the Greco-Roman world,
sometimes it was
an older man
and a younger boy,
often a sort of
a tutor and a student
who would be having
homosexual relations together.
And so,
some people are saying
that's what Paul
was prohibiting.
But actually,
there are Greek words
that specifically refer to that,
what we call pederasty.
And Paul did not use
those words.
He used a word,
Arsino Koitai,
which is probably,
probably was a word
that Paul invented
the first time
that it appears.
in Greek literature.
But it is
connected to the Greek translation
of Leviticus 20.
So,
arson is male
and koitai is intercourse.
And it comes right
from that Leviticus 20,
13
Greek translation
of that verse.
So,
which says,
whoever lies with a male
is with a woman.
They have both done
what is not pleasing
to God.
Question.
Are you saying
that that was
the Septuagint word?
Yes.
So,
Paul didn't invent it.
No,
sorry.
In the Septuagint,
so,
whoever lies with a male,
I think it's something like
whoever,
you know,
koitai,
arson,
as with a woman.
And he says,
arson,
no koitai.
So,
he's taking two words
that are right next to each other
and just making them
a compound word.
Hard to tell
in the manuscript
where there were no spaces
between the words.
Oh,
true.
Yeah.
Anyway,
it seems very clear
that Paul's specifically
referring to that verse.
That's the point.
And so,
so it seems that Paul
is specifically reaffirming
that Leviticus prohibition
in the context of reaffirming
the Ten Commandments
more broadly.
The other passage,
and this is sort of the passage
that speaks
in the biggest context
about homosexuality
is Romans 1.
And you can turn there
if you want to.
But in the context
of Romans 1,
Paul's describing
a variety of attitudes
and behaviors
typical of the Gentile world
in his day.
And Paul says
these particular sins
are the result
of humanity's ongoing
alienation from
and rebellion against God.
And there's a very wide
variety of things
that Paul mentions.
At the end of the chapter
he just goes into
a long list.
All manner of unrighteousness,
evil, covetousness,
malice, envy,
murder, strife,
deceit, maliciousness,
gossiping, slandering,
hating God,
insolence,
haughtiness,
boasting,
disobedience to parents,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
So there's a whole long list
that Paul's dealing with
and Paul's saying
all of these behaviors
are manifestations
of humanity's broader
alienation from God
and rejection of God.
But specifically
there's sort of a pattern
of words that he uses.
So verse 23 he says
they exchanged,
the pattern is
human beings exchange
God's good gifts
for corrupt alternatives.
And so God therefore
gives them over
to their own sinful desires.
So people exchanged
the glory of the immortal God
for images, idols,
so God gave them up
to impurity.
They exchanged the truth
about God for a lie,
so God gave them up
to dishonorable passions.
That's then
verse 26 to 27
he talks about
their women exchanged
natural relations
for those contrary to nature.
The men gave up
natural relations with women,
were consumed with passion
for one another,
so God gave them up
to a debased mind
to do what ought not
to be done.
So the picture here
is more broadly
people have,
humanity has exchanged
God's good gifts
for corrupt alternatives
and as a result
God has sort of
given us over
to our own sinful desires
and that's why we see
sort of the various
expressions of sinful
attitude and behavior
in the world.
So what's the big picture?
Included a couple
of quotes here.
Richard Hayes
talks about when human beings
engage in homosexual activity,
they are enacting
a rejection
of the creator's design.
Rosaria Butterfield
makes a good point.
She says,
homosexuality,
like all particular sins,
is a symptom
and not the cause.
That is,
it tells us
where our heart
has been,
not who we inherently
are or what we're
destined to become.
So she says,
committing my life
to Christ,
she had been
in a lesbian relationship
when she came
to faith in Christ
and she said,
committing my life
to Christ meant
not going back
to my heterosexual past
but going forward
to something entirely new.
So in other words,
Paul doesn't say
the main problem
in your life
is that you're gay
and you need
to get straight.
He says,
the main problem
in your life
is that you are
alienated from God
and that's true
of every one of us.
And homosexuality
is just one symptom
of that broader
alienation from God
and what you need,
what we all need
is to be reconciled
to God
through Jesus Christ
and then to begin
to sort of
experience
the redemption
of our bodies
and working for that.
let me stop
and take any questions
about these passages.
Okay.
A couple other
sort of common objections
that people present.
One is,
but Jesus didn't say
anything about homosexuality.
You know,
I mean,
maybe this was
just Paul's hang-up.
Paul was influenced
by rabbinic traditions
and,
you know,
he's just sort of
expressing a cultural
view of his time.
Well,
a couple things.
First,
within Jesus'
Jewish cultural context,
there was no debate
about homosexual practice.
It was universally regarded
as contrary
to God's will
and typical
of the Gentile
pagan world
outside.
And so,
and when Jesus
disagreed with the Pharisees,
he did not tend
to hide
his disagreement.
We have lots of examples
where Jesus disagreed
openly with the Pharisees
about all kinds of things.
And so,
if Jesus was silent
about something,
it probably means
he agreed.
And actually,
specifically,
Jesus explicitly affirmed
male-female marriage
in Matthew 19,
referring back
to Genesis 1,
have you not read,
he who created them
from the beginning
made them male
and female
and said,
therefore a man
shall leave his father
and mother
and hold fast
to his wife
and the two
shall become
one flesh.
So,
Jesus' reasoning
is as follows.
God made us
male and female,
two complementary
sexes,
therefore marriage
is intended
to be monogamous
between two people,
not polygamous,
and unbroken,
not a cycle
of repeated divorce
and remarriage.
That's what he was
talking about.
People were sort of
pursuing divorce
for very light
reasons
and for not
very serious reasons
and Jesus says,
no,
that's not God's
intention.
God's intention
is that marriage
is a picture
of male and female
united together
and ultimately
God and his people
united together.
Now,
if you take
that same reasoning
to complementary
sexes,
well,
marriage also
has to be
male and female.
right?
And the only
other option
Jesus commended
was celibacy
for God's kingdom.
So,
I think Jesus
does say things
that have implications
here.
Other question,
well,
couldn't we just
agree to disagree
even if
maybe that's,
you know,
how we understand
the Bible,
maybe other people
understand it
differently.
But,
you know,
Paul mentioned
some kinds of things
where Christians
can agree to disagree,
you know,
what kinds of foods
we eat,
what days we observe,
you know,
whether or not
you drink alcohol
in moderation.
But Paul warns
strongly against
greed,
lying,
pride,
bitterness,
rage,
and sexual immorality.
And he doesn't
consider those things
disputable matters
where Christians
can agree to disagree.
He warns strongly
against them.
And I think
in the bigger picture,
drawing boundaries
is not inherently
unloving.
Every church,
even the most
progressive church,
will want to draw
some boundaries
on attitudes
and behaviors,
whether it's sexual
or otherwise,
that are seen
as exploitative
or harmful
or wrong,
right?
This is not what
we want to characterize
our community,
right?
Every community
is going to draw
some boundaries.
And I think
really the question
is,
how do we,
in love
and patience
and clarity
and humility,
how do we
sort of seek
to live within,
communicate
and live together
within the wise
boundaries that God
has set out for us?
Yes,
many,
it's true
that many
gay and lesbian
people have felt
very hurt
and shamed
by people
who hold
the traditional
view.
But I don't
think it's
automatically
just because
people hold
the traditional
view,
but often
we haven't
communicated
that
or
with
sort of
these kind
of Christ-like
qualities.
So,
conclusion,
I don't think
there's any
biblical warrant
to depart
from the
traditional
Christian view.
But,
having said that,
I don't think
it's enough
to just say that.
I think we also
have to ask the
question,
what does it
look like
for a follower
of Christ
who experiences
same-sex attraction
to live a life
of flourishing
and growth
and
redemption?
Well,
let me just
briefly look
at broader
context of
these two
passages,
1 Corinthians 6
and Romans 1,
that speak
particularly
about
homosexuality.
You know,
that 1 Corinthians
passage goes
on to
say,
you know,
don't be,
it says,
don't be
deceived,
people who
sort of
habitually
and sort
of
persistently
and unrepentantly
sort of
reflect these
qualities won't
inherit God's
kingdom,
but then Paul
says,
and such
were some
of you.
But,
you were
washed,
you were
sanctified,
you were
justified in
the name of
the Lord Jesus
Christ and
by the
Spirit of
our God.
So Paul's
saying our
sexual
attractions and
even our
past sexual
sins are
not what
define us
at the
very deepest
level.
And man,
that is
good news.
That is
good news
for
everyone who
is engaged
in any kind
of sin
listed in
that list
or in
any of the
other sin
lists in
the New
Testament.
And you
know what?
We all
find ourselves
in one of
those lists
somewhere.
that when
God looks
at us
through
Christ,
that is
not what
defines us
at the
deepest
level.
And instead
in Christ
we have a
new identity,
we're washed,
that means
cleansed of
guilt and
shame,
we're set
apart for
God's
holy purposes,
sanctified,
and we're
justified,
declared
righteous in
God's sight
because of
Christ's
atoning work.
And the
chapter goes
on to talk
about how
now our
bodies are
temples of
the Holy
Spirit.
God has
come to
dwell in
our bodies.
And so
even when
our bodies
have been
used in
ways that
dishonor God
and we feel
that very
deeply,
God does
not see
us,
God comes
to dwell in
us by
his Holy
Spirit and
he honors
us.
And so
he doesn't
leave us
in a place
of self
hatred or
shame or
sort of
despair,
but he
comes and
brings healing
and hope.
There's a
similar pattern
in the book
of Romans,
again,
about,
you know,
the beginning
of Romans
is about
how all
humanity
has fallen
into sin
and,
you know,
Paul talks
about the
sins that
were characteristic
of the
Gentile world
in Romans 1
and then he
turns to the
religious world,
the Jewish
world,
and he
says,
self-righteousness
is just as
damning as
all of these
other sins.
And his
conclusion is
both Jew and
Gentile are all
under the power
of sin.
We are all
in the same
boat.
And what's
our hope?
Our hope is
Christ came
to die for us
while we were
still sinners
out of his
love for us.
And through
him we can
be buried
with him
and raised
with him
and walk
in newness
of life.
And Romans
is very
realistic.
You know,
read Romans
7.
You're struggling
with sin?
Read Romans
7.
Yeah.
It's real.
I do what I
don't want to do
and I don't do
what I don't
want to do.
You know,
I mean,
this weekend
I was there
with like
getting really
impatient at my
kids and yelling
at them like
over and over
and I had to
repent over and
over to them.
Like even though
they needed to
repent over and
over as well.
You know,
like I do
what I don't
want to do.
And,
you know,
but then Romans
says,
Romans 8 says
there's no
condemnation for
all who are in
Christ Jesus.
And then it
points us toward
the future hope
of our
redemption of
our bodies.
So,
to what are
Christians who
experience same
sex attraction
called to?
I've included a
quote from C.S.
Lewis.
This was back
in the 50s,
but a college
professor who
had recently
become a
Christian and
wrote to
Lewis and was
basically like,
hmm,
like some
college students
are coming to
us and,
you know,
saying that
they,
you know,
only feel
desire,
you know,
only feel
same-sex
attraction.
What should
we do?
So,
I've included
Lewis's quote.
I think there's
a lot of good
stuff in
there.
But one of
the things that
he says is,
you know,
is every,
well,
let's see.
So,
I'll read
some of this.
So,
Jesus' disciples
were not told
why the man
was born blind
in John 9.
Only,
the final cause
or God's purpose
is that the
works of God
should be made
manifest in him.
This suggests
that in homosexuality,
as in every other
tribulation,
God's works
can be made
manifest.
In other words,
that every disability
conceals a vocation,
if only we can find it,
which will turn the
necessity
to glorious gain.
Right?
What he's saying
is that our
weaknesses
may actually be
sort of a doorway
to our calling,
our particular
calling as
Christians.
And he said,
at the end,
he says,
like all other
tribulations,
it must be
offered to God.
His guidance,
how to use it,
must be sought.
So,
to what are
Christians who
experience
same-sex attraction
called to?
Well,
I think the first
thing scripture
says is,
for the present
time,
celibacy as an
expression of
devotion to Christ.
Now,
again,
many people object
to this,
and they say,
isn't that an
unfair burden
to put on every
Christian who
experiences
same-sex
attraction?
Celibacy should
be voluntary,
not forced.
But,
the reality is,
there are many,
many Christians,
especially women,
because generally
speaking,
women outnumber
men in the
church.
In some places,
I hear in some
parts of China,
the church is
80% female,
in some places.
So,
many Christians
strongly desire to
marry,
but can't find
a willing,
believing Christian
partner of the
opposite sex.
And hardly
anyone's,
and a bigger
picture,
when Christ
calls his
disciples,
he calls each
of us to
take up our
cross and
follow him.
And,
most of our
crosses and
burdens,
maybe even all
of them,
I mean,
how many of us
choose our own
cross?
Jesus chose
his own cross.
He chose the
hardest one of
all,
bearing the sins
of the world,
which nobody
else could bear.
Right?
But,
most of us
don't have
anywhere near that
maturity.
to willingly
enter into
suffering for
redemption purposes.
Right?
I mean,
think of all
the crosses
and burdens
we face.
Physical
disabilities,
chronic pain,
depression,
childhood trauma,
and all its
complicated effects,
being born into
a dysfunctional
family,
being the victim
of racism
or persecution,
parenting a
rebellious child,
most illnesses
marriage to a
difficult spouse.
Now,
same-sex attraction
has a particular
challenge,
but it is far
from unique
in that respect.
A challenge
for all of us
is to believe
that God
can redeem
even our
most unwanted
burdens
as we entrust
ourselves and
all of them
to Christ.
Second,
I think
Christians who
experience
same-sex attraction
can receive
their identity
in Christ.
I want to leave
a little time
for questions,
so you know
I'm not going
to get into this
because I think
this is actually
not the most
important thing,
but there are
different ways
that Christians
describe themselves,
so there are
some people
who are calling
themselves celibate
gay Christians,
and there are
some people
who say,
no,
I don't think
that's wise
to sort of
take on the
label gay,
I'm going to
call myself
a Christian
with same-sex
attraction,
there are
different reasons
for that.
My favorite
answer to this
question,
sort of speaking
to a Christian
who experiences
same-sex attraction
like,
are you gay?
was from a guy
who I knew
several years ago
who was a
Spanish major,
and he said,
estoy pero no soy,
and if you know
Spanish,
you know what
that means,
because estoy
means,
this is how
I'm experiencing
life,
soy means,
this is my
essential and
unchangeable self
at the deepest
level,
and so,
yes,
I am at one
level,
that's how I'm
experiencing life
right now,
and it's
a significant
experience,
but is that
what defines me
at the deepest
level?
No.
Third,
here's a
challenging
question,
should we
pray and
hope or
expect for
someone's
sexual
attractions
to change
from gay
to straight
through the
power of
Christ?
Well,
biblical
principles,
one,
changing
one's
sexual
attractions
is not
the primary
goal for
Christians,
as Christopher
Yuan says,
the goal is
not heterosexuality,
but holiness.
There are all
kinds of
heterosexual sin,
that are not
pleasing to
God,
and are not
better than
having same-sex
attraction and
living a life of
faithful celibacy,
in fact,
they're much
worse.
At the same
time,
nothing is
impossible with
God,
and there are
many who can
testify to that.
So,
practical realities.
One thing,
so,
concern that's
often out there,
reparative therapy
is a
psychological
technique
with the
goal of
changing from
a homosexual
orientation to
a heterosexual
orientation.
It is
increasingly under
attack by
the gay
community in
particular.
It is now
illegal in
18 U.S.
states to
counsel minors
in this
way.
Christians who
affirm the
traditional
view should
not necessarily
defend or
promote the
practice of
reparative
therapy.
So,
these are
not the
same thing,
and some,
so,
let me just
say that and
put that out
there.
Sometimes it's
sort of a,
it can be a
sort of knee-jerk
reaction of
parents when a
child comes out
to them,
we need to get
you some
counseling and
sort of get
you fixed.
Well,
that's not a
Christ-centered
response.
Actually.
So,
practical realities.
If you're
content to
pursue a life
of consecrated
Christian singleness,
whether you
experience same-sex
attraction or
not, but say
you do experience
same-sex attraction,
there's no need
or pressure to
cultivate sexual
desires for the
opposite sex.
In some ways,
those would only
present a different
kind of temptation.
You can focus
instead on living
a flourishing life
of consecrated
Christian singleness.
If you do want
to get married to
somebody of the
opposite sex,
but feel it's
impossible because
you've only ever
felt same-sex
attraction,
I think that
could be a
matter worth
talking through
and praying
about along
with close
friends and
wise Christian
leaders.
But often I
will say the
process, and
this is true for
a lot of
things, the
process is at
least as important
as the outcome.
Right?
Sometimes there's a
presenting issue
that comes up in
our life and we
think, I want God
to change this and
fix this.
And you know
what?
There's five or
six other issues
below that that God
wants to deal with
even more than that
issue.
Right?
So sometimes that
sort of will bring
out maybe deeper
wounds, if those are
part of your story,
not part of everyone's
story, but part of
some people's story.
So again, resist the
temptation to idolize
marriage even if you
desire it, but that
can be a process worth
engaging in.
If you're constantly
overwhelmed by lust or
are regularly falling
into addictive or
habitual patterns of
sin, again, whether
homosexual or
heterosexual, seek
help.
Talk with a pastor,
seek some
accountability, join a
sex addiction recovery
group.
There's all kinds of
things you can do, but
do something.
Okay?
And don't just stay.
That's not a good place
to stay as a Christian.
Christians who pursued a
change of attraction
report a wide range of
results.
A small number of
people have experienced
a change in their
overall sexual
attractions.
A larger number of
people have entered
into a marriage with
someone of the opposite
sex and found it
possible to be sexually
attracted to that one
person while still
experiencing frequent or
occasional same-sex
attractions.
So Rachel Gilson is
somebody who's talked
pretty openly about
this.
Rachel Gilson came to
faith in Christ while
she was dating a woman
and as an undergraduate
at Yale, and she came
to faith partly through
the ministry of this
church.
So she ended up getting
baptized here.
She became a member of
the church.
She was here for about
10 years.
She ended up marrying
a few years down the
road.
She ended up marrying
a man named Andrew.
They're both on set with
crew in the Boston area.
And Rachel has some
articles on her blog that
you can read, which are
great.
And she had an article in
Christianity Today called
I Never Became Straight.
Maybe that wasn't God's
goal.
And you think, well, wait a
minute, but you're in a
marriage to a man.
And she says, yes, but most
of my sexual temptations
are two women.
Right?
And she says, well, I'm
going to be a woman.
Right?
So God's given me a
marriage and an
attraction to my husband,
but he hasn't changed my
overall sexual attractions.
Other people have not found
their sexual attractions to
have changed significantly.
And I've included a quote at
the end from Wesley Hill,
which I'll read some of.
He says, so much of my life
as a homosexual Christian, by
that he means one with
homosexual desires or
attractions.
He's someone who's committed
to celibacy.
So, so much of my life has
been simply learning how to
wait, to be patient, to
endure, to bear up under an
unwelcome burden for the
long haul.
Be patient toward all that is
unsolved in your heart.
Having patience with your own
weaknesses is, I think,
something of what Paul was
commending when he described
the tension of living on this
side of wholeness.
When God acts climatically to
reclaim the world and raise
our dead bodies from the
grave, there will be no more
homosexuality.
But until then, we hope for
what we do not see.
We are washed and waiting.
That is my identity as one
who's been forgiven and
spiritually cleansed, and my
struggle as one who
perseveres with a frustrating
thorn in the flesh, looking
forward to what God has
promised to do.
And isn't, isn't that
something we can all
affirm?
All right.
Five minutes for questions,
comments.
Amy.
I've always struggled with the
Old Testament polygamy, David,
and people who God, he doesn't,
God doesn't, I mean, God talks
to them a lot, but he doesn't
talk to them about their
polygamous relationships, it
seems like, most of the time.
So, I don't know, I don't know
if someone could look at that and
be like, well, David was
following God, but he also,
you know, has several lives,
and God didn't really seem to
say much to him about it.
So, I mean, I know, like, in
my heart, the reason, but I
just wanted your thoughts about
that.
Yeah, yeah.
So, I think, broadly speaking,
we see all kinds of bad
results of polygamy in David's
life and in Abraham's life, and
there's rivalry and jealousy and
in Jacob's life, and, you know,
so I think the general sense we
get of polygamy is it has
negative effects.
Now, with polygamy, it's a
little challenging because, you
know, if you're married to two
wives, do you put away the
second wife?
Well, in some cultures, that
leaves her sort of all alone and
defenseless.
So, that's a complicated issue.
And the other thing I'd broadly
say is, you know, there's, when
Jesus was asked about marriage and
divorce, Jesus said, well, Moses
gave you this law because your
hearts were hard.
Like, there are a lot of things
that God sort of tolerated in the
Old Testament, which he was not
happy with, which were not good,
which did not have good effects.
And, but Jesus says, now I've
come, and now sort of my disciples
are called to a higher standard.
And so, we're going to go towards
what God actually wants for us.
And that's what you could say to
somebody who's saying, well, I'm
going to follow God in every other
area except for this, and David did
it, so, you know, I can do it too.
But, but when Jesus came, it's a
whole new productive world that
we're living in, right?
You know, if someone were to, if a
homosexual person were to say, I
think that I can love God, I mean,
David loved God, clearly, but he
was doing this.
I think I can engage in, you know,
a monogamous homosexual
relationship, but also really love
God.
David did it, you know, he was a
polygamist, so he wasn't necessarily
walking out what we're supposed to.
We can point to Jesus in those
situations, maybe.
Yeah, I think it's always dangerous
when a Christian says, I'm willing to
follow God except for this one thing
that I know God says no to, but I'm
going to embrace instead.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, that is always, no matter what
that thing is, that is always a
dangerous place to be.
And we saw it in David's life,
obviously, he had a lot of negative
things happen to him.
Yeah.
When he, as, as, like you said, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Brita.
I don't know if this is a this week
question, or in two weeks, but sort of
addressing the, you know, the church
that professes faith in Christ and also
affirms committed gay relationships
and our posture towards other
believers or maybe towards other
churches?
Yes.
Is that this week, or do we hold on to that?
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
We can take a stab at it now, and then
we can maybe come back to it later.
Um, so what should be our posture
towards Christians or churches who
affirm a lot of other biblical truths,
but, uh, also want to affirm gay
relationships?
Um, ah, that's complicated.
Okay.
Um, so I think there is a question.
So I, uh, I don't think it's something
that we can just say, ah, well, it's not
a big deal.
Um, I do think there is a, I do think
there's a question of trajectory.
In other words, what direction are you
heading in?
Okay.
So, um, uh, I think for, for, so for
many, for, for many churches, uh, many
churches have started with trying to
argue that the Bible actually isn't
clear about this or actually permits
same-sex relationships or isn't talking
about, you know, sort of what modern
people experience.
Um, but that position doesn't tend to
hold very long because I think
scripture is pretty clear.
And so eventually people sort of default
to, well, Paul said no, but we don't
like Paul.
And, um, you know, we just have to take
the bigger message of the scripture,
which is love.
And, uh, you know, God loves us and
that's all that's really important.
Now, if you say that, you've just sort
of like gotten rid of a lot of things in
scripture.
Um, and, uh, and then sort of, it tends
to go towards, you know, scripture is not
functionally authoritative in anything at
all.
Right.
And you can trace that.
I mean, you can, you can look at
denominations that in the sixties were
sort of debating this and in the, you
know, over the last 40 years or
somewhere have sort of switched on this
and then sort of, it, it, it has
broader ramifications.
Um, now I, I think there are sometimes
other people.
Okay.
So take, uh, you know, somebody who,
let's say somebody walks into church
today and has never been in here and
they immediately, they are convicted by
the Holy spirit, become a Christian.
And if you ask them, you know, what do
you think about same sex relationships?
Most people would probably say, sure,
that's fine.
Now the problem, that's a totally
different thing because this is somebody
who hasn't really is, is only beginning
to understand the Christian story and
is only beginning to understand all these
broader things that we've discussed the
last three weeks.
And then we'll have to think about how it
applies to this.
So that's a conversation and a process
is to engage in.
Um, and so I, I, I think that's maybe a
beginning of an answer, but there's a lot
more, we'll, we'll, we need to come back
to that because that's a bigger question.
Um, and I realize I probably haven't
answered all of it either.
Yeah.
Um, you said that in another Bible study,
it doesn't matter how we got there,
it's how we treat them now.
Now we have, uh, practicing homosexuals
in the church.
What is that reaction supposed to be?
We know that they're practicing.
Yeah.
Um, so I think the first question is,
is this person saying, I believe in Jesus
Christ.
I've surrendered my life to him.
I want to live my life completely for him.
Okay.
Um, there are some people who come to
church every week, but they're not there
yet.
Right.
So there's many people, you know, I mean,
there's many people who come to church
every week and when, you know, when the
communion's passed out, they don't take
communion because they, they know that
they're not there yet.
They haven't surrendered everything to
Christ.
Right.
Um, now if somebody says I've surrendered
everything to Christ and I want to
pursue this, um,
uh, I don't think that's ultimately sort
of compatible together.
So I think there is a, um, uh, you
know, if somebody, somebody came to the
elders and said, I want to be baptized
and I'm in a, uh, a same sex, sexual
relationship, you know, the elders would
have, we'd have, we'd, we'd want to have a
lot of conversations, but we would have to
say not now.
Um, that, that is something, you know,
just as if somebody comes to the elders
and says, I'm cohabiting with my
girlfriend, um, of the opposite sex and I
want to become a member of the church.
We'd say, well, let's have a lot of
conversations together, but that's not
God's, uh, plan for his redeemed people.
Right.
And so we need to sort of work towards,
move towards, uh, a kind of change and
repentance that would be pleasing to God.
Um, Julie.
Um, I think when I'm looking at all these
cis lists, a lot of them, I can see how
greed or pride or rage or lying bitterness
like cause a lot of brokenness or, or like
death in relationships, but I guess like
when I look at a, um, like a monogamous
homosexual relationship in which they
commit not to have sex before marriage,
like all these things, like the only
difference is like, um, it's like people,
two people of the same gender.
Like I don't see as clearly how that,
uh, breeds death or destruction or
whatever.
So I'm wondering if you can say any
words to it.
And also, um, like if you can point to
any like resources, like I personally
don't have experience and I don't have
a lot of friends with that kind of
experience, but like when people ask
like, oh yeah, but like what's so bad?
I'm like, I really don't actually know
on this side of heaven, like what is the
consequences?
Like believe me, it has all these
negative consequences.
I like don't really know where to look
for that type of stuff.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, that's a good question.
That's another question that I probably
have to wrap up in like a minute.
So, um, so I won't be able to give an
answer that does justice to that.
I think, um, so I think one of the
things, uh, that we sort of talked about
over the last couple of weeks is for a
Christian marriage is not supposed to be
primarily about two individuals finding
their happiness in each other, but, um,
being a picture of God and his people
being united together.
Right.
And so male and female sort of two
different, uh, uh, uh, the two different
people in that respect with the differences
sort of physically inscribed upon their
bodies.
Right.
Um, being united together is a picture of,
uh, of God's salvation, right?
Of God's redemption.
Um, to men or to women is not a picture
of that.
It's sort of, uh, a, um, sort of holding
on to sameness, right?
Rather than sort of unity across that
difference.
Um, now, uh, that doesn't, I understand
that doesn't seem as obviously harmful as
some of these other things.
Um, there, there are other, you know, I,
there are other things that are worth
talking about that I just don't have, I
don't want to sort of broach and leave
hanging.
Um, so I, I will take note of that
question and we will come back to that in
the next week or two.
All right.
Let me pray for us and we'll have more
time.
We, you know, we've got a couple of
weeks, uh, so we can come back to these
things.
Uh, let's pray.
Um, uh, the other thing I would say is
you can read some of these books, read
some of these books of, uh, read Jackie,
Jackie Hill Perry's book is very good.
Um, and she talks about both some of
the things that initially drew her into a
lesbian relationship and seeking to find
fulfillment there, but also some ways
that God sort of exposed some deeper
ways that that was unhealthy for her.
Um, so her book maybe is a good example
of, uh, addressing your question.
Uh, it's a beautiful book.
Uh, it's beautifully written.
Uh, generally.
All right.
Lord, uh, we pray that you would give us
your wisdom and love.
Uh, we pray, uh, that you would help us
to set our hearts on Christ.
Um, we pray that you would, uh, help us
to continue, um, learning together and,
and edifying each other, uh, for Jesus
sake.
Amen.