WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.860
 Let me start that. All right, we are in our fourth session of our class on gender and sexuality,

00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:11.599
 and I have just put the overall shape of the class on the front again. I'm not going to go over it,

00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:18.039
 but there's a flow to this class. We're sort of trying to work within the biblical story

00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:24.820
 of how we're created by God, corrupted by sin, redeemed by Christ, and awaiting glory.

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 So, in the next few weeks, what we're going to do is take some challenging topics that we face

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 sort of as we live in the midst of a broken world and as we look forward to the redemption that Christ has promised.

00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:47.539
 So, again, briefly where we've been. The first week we talked about how we're both beautiful and broken,

00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:53.320
 made in God's image, but broken by sin. And then we looked at how Christ has come to redeem us,

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 including our bodies, and that can look like marriage can bear witness to Christ's redemption,

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 and a life of consecrated Christian singleness can bear witness to Christ's redemption.

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 We looked at the different ways that the church needs both single and married people living their lives

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 devoted to Christ in order to sort of picture the fullness of the redemption that Christ has come to bring.

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 So, today we are going to jump into the topic of homosexuality.

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 Specifically, we're going to focus on what the Bible says to Christians

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 and how we should live within the Christian church.

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 And next week, I've switched up the schedule a bit, but so next week we're going to look at transgender identity,

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 and then the next week we're going to specifically think about how do we relate to our neighbors

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 in the world, sort of people who aren't professing Christians,

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 or people who aren't, or people outside of the church.

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 How should we as Christians relate to others in the world around these questions?

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 So, today I want to focus on sort of within the church,

00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:05.400
 but we will take some time to think about how do we bear witness to Christ in the world.

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 So, the two questions I want to address are,

00:02:07.859 --> 00:02:11.219
 one, what does the Bible actually say about homosexuality?

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 And second, what does redemption, what does a redemptive path look like

00:02:15.480 --> 00:02:18.920
 if I'm a same-sex, for a same-sex attracted Christian?

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 So, first, what does the Bible actually say about homosexuality?

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 And, you know, for nearly, for almost all of the history of the church,

00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:39.960
 the Christian church has been pretty unanimous in its sort of verdict on this question.

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 The traditional view is that God designed sex for male and female marriage only,

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 and therefore sexual activity between two men or two women is not in accordance with God's plan

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 for his redeemed people, and is one example of the sin that afflicts all fallen humanity.

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 So, that's often referred to as the traditional view.

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 Now, in the past maybe 50 years or so,

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 some Christians, initially within more mainline Protestant denominations,

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 but more recently, people who would identify as evangelical Christians,

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 have argued that the traditional view is wrong.

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 And, rather, the church should affirm same-sex unions,

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 and adopt what's often called an affirming view.

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 So, some denominations, particularly mainline Protestant denominations,

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 have officially sort of adopted that view.

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 But more recently, there are people from evangelical traditions

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 who are advocating this view as well, and I've listed a few.

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 Now, other Christians are sort of somewhere in the middle on this.

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 And some people have come out explicitly and sort of said,

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 you know what, we think that we should just sort of call a truce.

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 This has been such a divisive issue within the church,

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 you know, and we should just sort of agree to disagree,

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 and let everybody be, you know.

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 And so, the church has found ways to sort of agree to disagree respectfully,

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 but still recognize each other as members in good standing of the body of Christ,

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 about a variety of issues, you know.

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 How and when will Jesus come again?

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 You know, some of the issues we talked about, about science and faith,

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 and, you know, the creation story.

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 Or, you know, infant versus believer's baptism, right?

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 Now, different churches hold different positions,

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 but we can at least recognize that people who hold another position

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 can still be believers in the same gospel,

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 and we can still be sort of in good fellowship with each other,

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 you know, in some way or other.

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 And so, some people say, well, can we just sort of treat homosexuality

00:04:52.219 --> 00:04:56.099
 as one of these disputable matters, right?

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 Romans 14, Paul says, some issues are disputable,

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 and, you know, food sect,

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 he gives some examples,

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 observing special days, eating certain foods,

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 different Christians will do, sort of,

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 live according to their convictions,

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 can we just live and let live?

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 So, those are sort of the three views.

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 And another version of this third view is,

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 let's just avoid talking about this issue.

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 Okay?

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 It's not sort of explicitly stating,

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 let's agree to disagree.

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 It's just saying,

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 let's avoid this issue as much as we can.

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 And some churches are trying to do that.

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 It doesn't,

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 it doesn't last very long, but,

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 but anyway.

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 So, now, before we,

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 so I want to consider what people are saying

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 in regards to these views.

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 Before we dive into,

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 sort of, examining biblical passages

00:05:49.559 --> 00:05:51.000
 and examining different views,

00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.959
 I also just want to step back and say,

00:05:53.779 --> 00:05:58.160
 almost nobody changes their views on this topic

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 purely through an extensive study of scripture

00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.980
 and reading scholarly books.

00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.000
 For most people today,

00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:09.759
 this question also has significant personal

00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:13.420
 and emotional and relational ramifications.

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 questions like,

00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:17.500
 what about my gay brother,

00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:18.340
 sister,

00:06:18.819 --> 00:06:19.180
 son,

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 daughter,

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 aunt,

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 uncle,

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 friend,

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 neighbor?

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 You know,

00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.120
 many people argue that the traditional view

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 has been harmful

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 to people who identify as

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 LGBT,

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 many of whom have lived under

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 a cloud of fear and shame.

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 Or,

00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:41.740
 for people who do experience same-sex attraction,

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 a question may be,

00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.900
 why hasn't God taken this away?

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 I've begged and pleaded and prayed

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 more than anything else that God would.

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 And yet,

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 it's still here.

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 And I don't feel a shred of attraction

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 to the opposite sex.

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 And practically,

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 if I think about a life of celibacy,

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 can that actually be a life of flourishing?

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 Right?

00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:09.899
 So,

00:07:09.980 --> 00:07:11.620
 these are some of the questions

00:07:11.620 --> 00:07:12.300
 that I think

00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:14.459
 people are wrestling with

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 and many of us are wrestling with.

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 And so,

00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:19.199
 I don't,

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 you know,

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 if you're talking with another Christian

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 who maybe has doubt,

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 say,

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 if you hold the traditional view

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 and you're talking with another Christian

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 who has doubts about the traditional view

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 or who holds one of these other views,

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 I don't think that the best approach

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 is just immediately to quote,

00:07:34.019 --> 00:07:35.359
 you know,

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 a few scripture passages

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 that seem to settle the issue.

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 But I think

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 it's important to

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 sort of

00:07:42.019 --> 00:07:44.240
 listen and understand,

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 like,

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 what are the concerns

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 you're wrestling with

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 and how does scripture speak

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 to those concerns?

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 Right?

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 I've prayed and asked God

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 to take this away

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 and God hasn't taken this away.

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 Well,

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 that's a question about

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 unanswered prayer.

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 Right?

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 It's not really a question about

00:08:00.599 --> 00:08:02.159
 what does the Bible say

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 about homosexuality?

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 Right?

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 Now,

00:08:04.599 --> 00:08:04.839
 yes,

00:08:04.859 --> 00:08:05.699
 it's connected to that,

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 but there are often

00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.419
 sort of broader issues

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 that we need,

00:08:13.339 --> 00:08:14.979
 that we can

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 sort of work through together.

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 All right.

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 Having said that,

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 I want to look briefly

00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:20.699
 at specific texts

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 because,

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 number one,

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 we're committed as a church

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 to following

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 and obeying the Bible

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 and letting our views

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 be shaped by the scriptures

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 and not only by

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 our personal feelings

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 and emotional struggles

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 and relational contexts

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 and ultimately,

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 we believe God gave us

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 the Bible for our good.

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 So,

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 now again,

00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:40.139
 over the last three weeks,

00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:41.019
 I've tried to sort of

00:08:41.019 --> 00:08:42.740
 paint a big picture view

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 of what sort of God's plan

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 for gender and sexuality.

00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:48.639
 homosexuality.

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 And I don't think

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 that I've mentioned

00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.500
 homosexuality directly

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 at all,

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 but,

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 you know,

00:08:55.199 --> 00:08:55.919
 if you sort of,

00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:56.360
 if you,

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 you know,

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 I've done this deliberately.

00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:59.919
 I didn't start with this lesson

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 because I think it's important

00:09:01.379 --> 00:09:02.139
 also

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 to sort of

00:09:03.199 --> 00:09:04.679
 have this bigger view

00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:05.579
 first

00:09:05.579 --> 00:09:06.980
 before we jump into

00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:08.179
 some of these challenging

00:09:08.179 --> 00:09:09.100
 topics.

00:09:09.100 --> 00:09:10.779
 So,

00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:11.080
 again,

00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:11.680
 I think

00:09:11.680 --> 00:09:13.340
 those can be

00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:14.120
 good conversations

00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:15.779
 about sort of

00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:17.440
 everything we've talked

00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:18.480
 about the last three weeks

00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.220
 as well.

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 Anyway,

00:09:21.019 --> 00:09:22.000
 having said that,

00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:23.139
 there are six Bible passages,

00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:24.000
 six or seven,

00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:25.279
 that address homosexuality

00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:25.840
 in particular.

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 Let me go briefly

00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:27.180
 through them.

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 First is Genesis 19,

00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:30.019
 Sodom and Gomorrah.

00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:31.019
 Right?

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 That's where the word

00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:32.980
 sodomy comes from.

00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:35.720
 Briefly,

00:09:35.779 --> 00:09:36.460
 this is an account

00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:37.920
 of homosexual rape.

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 It is not an account

00:09:39.199 --> 00:09:40.599
 of consensual sex.

00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:42.519
 Later Bible passages

00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:43.339
 condemn Sodom

00:09:43.339 --> 00:09:44.939
 for a wide range of sins,

00:09:45.599 --> 00:09:46.679
 including pride,

00:09:46.939 --> 00:09:47.439
 gluttony,

00:09:47.620 --> 00:09:48.679
 neglecting to help the poor,

00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:49.699
 hostility towards

00:09:49.699 --> 00:09:50.539
 God's messengers,

00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:51.360
 as well as

00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:52.240
 sexual immorality.

00:09:53.219 --> 00:09:53.539
 So,

00:09:53.579 --> 00:09:54.759
 the example of Sodom and Gomorrah

00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:55.599
 by itself,

00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:56.439
 I think,

00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:57.339
 is not decisive

00:09:57.339 --> 00:09:58.659
 for the modern question

00:09:58.659 --> 00:09:59.099
 of,

00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:00.199
 should the church

00:10:00.199 --> 00:10:01.159
 approve of

00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:02.099
 and bless

00:10:02.099 --> 00:10:02.819
 consensual

00:10:02.819 --> 00:10:03.879
 same-sex relationships?

00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:04.959
 So,

00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:05.579
 I don't think

00:10:05.579 --> 00:10:06.219
 that's the best

00:10:06.219 --> 00:10:07.419
 text to

00:10:07.419 --> 00:10:07.919
 quote,

00:10:08.059 --> 00:10:08.919
 one way or the other.

00:10:10.599 --> 00:10:11.000
 Then,

00:10:11.099 --> 00:10:11.839
 we go to Leviticus.

00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:13.899
 Laws of the Old Testament,

00:10:14.059 --> 00:10:14.719
 you shall not lie

00:10:14.719 --> 00:10:15.219
 with a male

00:10:15.219 --> 00:10:15.959
 as with a woman,

00:10:16.079 --> 00:10:17.419
 it is an abomination.

00:10:18.459 --> 00:10:19.719
 And Leviticus 20.13

00:10:19.719 --> 00:10:20.839
 prescribes the death

00:10:20.839 --> 00:10:21.519
 penalty

00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.719
 for such acts,

00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:23.179
 as well as

00:10:23.179 --> 00:10:23.939
 other violations

00:10:23.939 --> 00:10:24.879
 of the marriage covenant,

00:10:25.319 --> 00:10:26.159
 including adultery,

00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:27.039
 incest,

00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:27.939
 and bestiality.

00:10:28.579 --> 00:10:28.899
 Now,

00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:30.279
 pretty much everyone agrees

00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:31.439
 that Leviticus

00:10:31.439 --> 00:10:32.740
 prohibited gay sex

00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:33.779
 within ancient Israel.

00:10:33.779 --> 00:10:35.939
 The question is,

00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:37.120
 do these laws

00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:37.600
 still apply

00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:38.439
 to Christians today?

00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:40.240
 And some people

00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:40.779
 will say,

00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:42.559
 why are Christians

00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:43.559
 saying that Leviticus

00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:44.279
 even matters?

00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:45.019
 Leviticus says

00:10:45.019 --> 00:10:45.679
 you shouldn't eat

00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:46.659
 shrimp and pork,

00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:48.120
 and most of us

00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:49.240
 feel completely free

00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:50.500
 to eat shrimp and pork.

00:10:50.579 --> 00:10:51.299
 It says you shouldn't

00:10:51.299 --> 00:10:52.019
 have clothes

00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:52.620
 that are mixed

00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:53.579
 of, you know,

00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:54.480
 cotton and linen

00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:55.740
 or two different fabrics,

00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:57.199
 and probably everything

00:10:57.199 --> 00:10:57.740
 I'm wearing

00:10:57.740 --> 00:10:58.399
 has more than

00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:59.579
 one fabric,

00:10:59.699 --> 00:10:59.959
 right?

00:10:59.960 --> 00:11:00.639
 Now,

00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:03.100
 the big picture,

00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:03.400
 though,

00:11:03.500 --> 00:11:05.040
 is there's basically

00:11:05.040 --> 00:11:05.860
 two kinds of laws

00:11:05.860 --> 00:11:06.600
 in the Old Testament.

00:11:06.780 --> 00:11:08.040
 There's ceremonial laws

00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:09.460
 which are fulfilled

00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:10.379
 in the coming of Jesus,

00:11:11.100 --> 00:11:11.580
 and so Christians

00:11:11.580 --> 00:11:12.740
 don't obey

00:11:12.740 --> 00:11:13.759
 the ceremonial laws.

00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:16.060
 Clean and unclean foods,

00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:17.379
 different kinds of clothing,

00:11:18.040 --> 00:11:18.259
 you know,

00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:19.259
 all the sacrifices,

00:11:19.800 --> 00:11:20.019
 right?

00:11:20.060 --> 00:11:20.800
 They're all fulfilled

00:11:20.800 --> 00:11:21.660
 in the person of Jesus.

00:11:21.800 --> 00:11:22.580
 They're sort of shadows

00:11:22.580 --> 00:11:24.259
 of who Christ is.

00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:26.800
 But the moral laws,

00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:28.019
 love your neighbor

00:11:28.019 --> 00:11:28.680
 as yourself,

00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:30.199
 honor your father

00:11:30.199 --> 00:11:30.699
 and mother,

00:11:31.459 --> 00:11:32.139
 don't murder,

00:11:32.439 --> 00:11:33.179
 don't steal,

00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:34.399
 don't commit adultery,

00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:35.339
 don't lie,

00:11:35.659 --> 00:11:36.139
 don't covet,

00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:37.519
 well, all of those

00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:38.500
 we say,

00:11:38.659 --> 00:11:39.179
 oh, yes,

00:11:39.479 --> 00:11:40.159
 as Christians,

00:11:40.459 --> 00:11:40.799
 oh, yeah,

00:11:40.819 --> 00:11:41.799
 we still obey those.

00:11:42.099 --> 00:11:42.779
 And guess what?

00:11:42.859 --> 00:11:43.620
 All of those

00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:45.099
 are also reaffirmed

00:11:45.099 --> 00:11:45.939
 in the New Testament.

00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:47.799
 So that's the best way

00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:48.379
 to tell,

00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:49.279
 you know,

00:11:49.579 --> 00:11:50.659
 does Leviticus matter,

00:11:51.079 --> 00:11:52.120
 should we obey

00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:53.379
 a law in Leviticus

00:11:53.379 --> 00:11:53.879
 is,

00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:55.120
 does the New Testament

00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:55.899
 reaffirm it?

00:11:56.539 --> 00:11:57.059
 Well,

00:11:57.059 --> 00:11:59.599
 then to answer that,

00:11:59.739 --> 00:12:00.479
 we can go to

00:12:00.479 --> 00:12:01.639
 1 Corinthians 6,

00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:03.219
 9 to 11,

00:12:03.619 --> 00:12:05.439
 in which it says,

00:12:05.579 --> 00:12:06.559
 do not be deceived,

00:12:07.479 --> 00:12:08.899
 neither the sexually immoral,

00:12:08.979 --> 00:12:09.759
 nor idolaters,

00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:10.659
 nor adulterers,

00:12:10.739 --> 00:12:11.559
 nor men who practice

00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:12.519
 homosexuality,

00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:13.459
 nor thieves,

00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:14.059
 nor the greedy,

00:12:14.179 --> 00:12:14.779
 nor drunkards,

00:12:14.839 --> 00:12:15.579
 nor revilers,

00:12:15.579 --> 00:12:16.319
 nor swindlers

00:12:16.319 --> 00:12:18.179
 will inherit God's kingdom.

00:12:20.339 --> 00:12:20.859
 Now,

00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:22.500
 there's a similar verse

00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:23.620
 in 1 Timothy,

00:12:24.180 --> 00:12:25.480
 chapter 1,

00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:27.340
 and both of these verses

00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:28.620
 actually sort of follow

00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:29.379
 the pattern

00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:30.399
 of the Ten Commandments.

00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.480
 So they're reaffirming

00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.100
 don't commit adultery,

00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:34.320
 right,

00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:35.320
 nor thieves,

00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:35.600
 right,

00:12:35.659 --> 00:12:36.480
 don't steal,

00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:39.159
 nor,

00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:40.680
 so revilers,

00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:41.600
 that would be in the category

00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:42.879
 of bearing false witness,

00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:45.899
 and greedy,

00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:46.700
 could be interpreted

00:12:46.700 --> 00:12:47.439
 as coveting.

00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:49.220
 So,

00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:51.399
 so it's sort of

00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:52.600
 reaffirming those,

00:12:52.820 --> 00:12:53.840
 particularly the second half

00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.620
 of the Ten Commandments,

00:12:54.700 --> 00:12:55.480
 as well as idolaters,

00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:55.860
 right,

00:12:55.939 --> 00:12:56.200
 the first,

00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:57.080
 that's the first four

00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:57.980
 of the Ten Commandments,

00:12:58.500 --> 00:12:59.799
 and the list in 1 Timothy

00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:00.620
 sort of follows

00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:01.939
 the shape of the Ten Commandments

00:13:01.939 --> 00:13:02.899
 even more explicitly.

00:13:02.899 --> 00:13:05.000
 But included

00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:05.959
 in both of those lists

00:13:05.959 --> 00:13:06.459
 is,

00:13:07.539 --> 00:13:09.340
 are two words,

00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:09.879
 well,

00:13:09.959 --> 00:13:10.840
 two words in 1 Corinthians

00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:11.699
 and one in

00:13:11.699 --> 00:13:12.539
 Arsino Koitai

00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:13.779
 is in 1 Timothy

00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:15.259
 that are translated

00:13:15.259 --> 00:13:17.019
 men who practice homosexuality.

00:13:17.419 --> 00:13:17.639
 Now,

00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:19.159
 some scholars

00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:20.059
 who

00:13:20.059 --> 00:13:21.679
 take an affirming view

00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:22.240
 argue

00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.079
 Paul was just talking about

00:13:24.079 --> 00:13:25.860
 homosexual prostitution

00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:26.980
 or exploitation,

00:13:27.699 --> 00:13:27.960
 right,

00:13:28.019 --> 00:13:29.199
 in the Greco-Roman world,

00:13:29.539 --> 00:13:30.240
 sometimes it was

00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:30.980
 an older man

00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:32.139
 and a younger boy,

00:13:32.139 --> 00:13:34.179
 often a sort of

00:13:34.179 --> 00:13:35.360
 a tutor and a student

00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:36.580
 who would be having

00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:37.919
 homosexual relations together.

00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:38.980
 And so,

00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:39.860
 some people are saying

00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:40.879
 that's what Paul

00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:42.240
 was prohibiting.

00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:44.000
 But actually,

00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:45.340
 there are Greek words

00:13:45.340 --> 00:13:47.000
 that specifically refer to that,

00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:48.519
 what we call pederasty.

00:13:49.899 --> 00:13:51.139
 And Paul did not use

00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:51.740
 those words.

00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:53.720
 He used a word,

00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:55.720
 Arsino Koitai,

00:13:56.259 --> 00:13:57.220
 which is probably,

00:13:57.220 --> 00:13:58.480
 probably was a word

00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:59.319
 that Paul invented

00:13:59.319 --> 00:14:00.679
 the first time

00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:01.879
 that it appears.

00:14:02.139 --> 00:14:03.939
 in Greek literature.

00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:05.960
 But it is

00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.600
 connected to the Greek translation

00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:09.759
 of Leviticus 20.

00:14:10.379 --> 00:14:10.720
 So,

00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:12.480
 arson is male

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.179
 and koitai is intercourse.

00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.659
 And it comes right

00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:17.059
 from that Leviticus 20,

00:14:17.179 --> 00:14:17.679
 13

00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:19.539
 Greek translation

00:14:19.539 --> 00:14:20.319
 of that verse.

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:21.600
 So,

00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:23.539
 which says,

00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:24.539
 whoever lies with a male

00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:25.139
 is with a woman.

00:14:25.939 --> 00:14:26.740
 They have both done

00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:27.399
 what is not pleasing

00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:28.120
 to God.

00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:29.299
 Question.

00:14:29.299 --> 00:14:31.039
 Are you saying

00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:31.659
 that that was

00:14:31.659 --> 00:14:33.019
 the Septuagint word?

00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:33.979
 Yes.

00:14:34.419 --> 00:14:34.759
 So,

00:14:34.839 --> 00:14:35.799
 Paul didn't invent it.

00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:37.240
 No,

00:14:37.459 --> 00:14:38.000
 sorry.

00:14:38.419 --> 00:14:39.159
 In the Septuagint,

00:14:39.500 --> 00:14:39.740
 so,

00:14:39.839 --> 00:14:40.899
 whoever lies with a male,

00:14:40.939 --> 00:14:41.719
 I think it's something like

00:14:41.719 --> 00:14:42.039
 whoever,

00:14:42.719 --> 00:14:43.120
 you know,

00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:43.919
 koitai,

00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:45.000
 arson,

00:14:45.219 --> 00:14:46.039
 as with a woman.

00:14:46.479 --> 00:14:47.179
 And he says,

00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:47.519
 arson,

00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.159
 no koitai.

00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:48.379
 So,

00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:50.639
 he's taking two words

00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:51.919
 that are right next to each other

00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:52.980
 and just making them

00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:53.720
 a compound word.

00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:56.199
 Hard to tell

00:14:56.199 --> 00:14:57.460
 in the manuscript

00:14:57.460 --> 00:14:59.220
 where there were no spaces

00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:00.159
 between the words.

00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:01.399
 Oh,

00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:01.679
 true.

00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:02.139
 Yeah.

00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:02.600
 Yeah.

00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:04.059
 Yeah.

00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:04.519
 Anyway,

00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:06.019
 it seems very clear

00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:06.879
 that Paul's specifically

00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:08.559
 referring to that verse.

00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:10.299
 That's the point.

00:15:10.299 --> 00:15:14.079
 And so,

00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:15.939
 so it seems that Paul

00:15:15.939 --> 00:15:17.559
 is specifically reaffirming

00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.019
 that Leviticus prohibition

00:15:20.019 --> 00:15:21.500
 in the context of reaffirming

00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:22.179
 the Ten Commandments

00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:22.719
 more broadly.

00:15:23.479 --> 00:15:24.500
 The other passage,

00:15:24.599 --> 00:15:25.679
 and this is sort of the passage

00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:26.259
 that speaks

00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:27.899
 in the biggest context

00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:29.039
 about homosexuality

00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:29.839
 is Romans 1.

00:15:30.319 --> 00:15:31.099
 And you can turn there

00:15:31.099 --> 00:15:31.859
 if you want to.

00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:33.459
 But in the context

00:15:33.459 --> 00:15:34.099
 of Romans 1,

00:15:34.199 --> 00:15:34.839
 Paul's describing

00:15:34.839 --> 00:15:36.079
 a variety of attitudes

00:15:36.079 --> 00:15:36.740
 and behaviors

00:15:36.740 --> 00:15:38.699
 typical of the Gentile world

00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:40.480
 in his day.

00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:41.300
 And Paul says

00:15:41.300 --> 00:15:42.400
 these particular sins

00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:43.220
 are the result

00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:44.840
 of humanity's ongoing

00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:46.020
 alienation from

00:15:46.020 --> 00:15:48.040
 and rebellion against God.

00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:50.259
 And there's a very wide

00:15:50.259 --> 00:15:50.940
 variety of things

00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:51.759
 that Paul mentions.

00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:53.700
 At the end of the chapter

00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:54.360
 he just goes into

00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:55.140
 a long list.

00:15:55.300 --> 00:15:56.759
 All manner of unrighteousness,

00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:57.780
 evil, covetousness,

00:15:57.879 --> 00:15:58.580
 malice, envy,

00:15:58.720 --> 00:15:59.400
 murder, strife,

00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:00.420
 deceit, maliciousness,

00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:01.480
 gossiping, slandering,

00:16:01.900 --> 00:16:02.540
 hating God,

00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:03.400
 insolence,

00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:04.740
 haughtiness,

00:16:05.140 --> 00:16:06.240
 boasting,

00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.120
 disobedience to parents,

00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.080
 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:09.580
 Right?

00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:10.759
 So there's a whole long list

00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:12.159
 that Paul's dealing with

00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:12.720
 and Paul's saying

00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:13.659
 all of these behaviors

00:16:13.659 --> 00:16:14.700
 are manifestations

00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:17.060
 of humanity's broader

00:16:17.060 --> 00:16:18.679
 alienation from God

00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:20.860
 and rejection of God.

00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:22.399
 But specifically

00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:23.440
 there's sort of a pattern

00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.259
 of words that he uses.

00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:29.159
 So verse 23 he says

00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:30.299
 they exchanged,

00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:31.679
 the pattern is

00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:32.799
 human beings exchange

00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:33.860
 God's good gifts

00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:35.860
 for corrupt alternatives.

00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:37.700
 And so God therefore

00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:38.740
 gives them over

00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:40.240
 to their own sinful desires.

00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:41.420
 So people exchanged

00:16:41.420 --> 00:16:42.520
 the glory of the immortal God

00:16:42.520 --> 00:16:43.680
 for images, idols,

00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:45.160
 so God gave them up

00:16:45.160 --> 00:16:46.320
 to impurity.

00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:47.960
 They exchanged the truth

00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:48.920
 about God for a lie,

00:16:49.020 --> 00:16:50.040
 so God gave them up

00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:51.420
 to dishonorable passions.

00:16:52.140 --> 00:16:53.100
 That's then

00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:54.820
 verse 26 to 27

00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:56.360
 he talks about

00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:57.640
 their women exchanged

00:16:57.640 --> 00:16:58.400
 natural relations

00:16:58.400 --> 00:16:59.580
 for those contrary to nature.

00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:00.360
 The men gave up

00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:01.420
 natural relations with women,

00:17:01.520 --> 00:17:02.400
 were consumed with passion

00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:02.960
 for one another,

00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.200
 so God gave them up

00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:05.819
 to a debased mind

00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:06.879
 to do what ought not

00:17:06.879 --> 00:17:07.619
 to be done.

00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:10.799
 So the picture here

00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.839
 is more broadly

00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:12.960
 people have,

00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:14.720
 humanity has exchanged

00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.500
 God's good gifts

00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:17.960
 for corrupt alternatives

00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:19.659
 and as a result

00:17:19.659 --> 00:17:20.439
 God has sort of

00:17:20.439 --> 00:17:21.279
 given us over

00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.259
 to our own sinful desires

00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:24.939
 and that's why we see

00:17:24.939 --> 00:17:26.019
 sort of the various

00:17:26.019 --> 00:17:27.639
 expressions of sinful

00:17:27.639 --> 00:17:29.359
 attitude and behavior

00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:30.039
 in the world.

00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:35.079
 So what's the big picture?

00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:37.599
 Included a couple

00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:38.839
 of quotes here.

00:17:41.659 --> 00:17:42.559
 Richard Hayes

00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:43.940
 talks about when human beings

00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:45.500
 engage in homosexual activity,

00:17:46.159 --> 00:17:47.960
 they are enacting

00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:48.740
 a rejection

00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:50.399
 of the creator's design.

00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.200
 Rosaria Butterfield

00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:52.859
 makes a good point.

00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:53.559
 She says,

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:54.859
 homosexuality,

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.339
 like all particular sins,

00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:57.319
 is a symptom

00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:58.480
 and not the cause.

00:17:58.480 --> 00:17:59.559
 That is,

00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:00.140
 it tells us

00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:00.740
 where our heart

00:18:00.740 --> 00:18:01.339
 has been,

00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.000
 not who we inherently

00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:03.980
 are or what we're

00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:04.940
 destined to become.

00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:06.579
 So she says,

00:18:06.620 --> 00:18:07.259
 committing my life

00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:07.759
 to Christ,

00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.039
 she had been

00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:10.900
 in a lesbian relationship

00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:12.360
 when she came

00:18:12.360 --> 00:18:13.059
 to faith in Christ

00:18:13.059 --> 00:18:13.420
 and she said,

00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:14.000
 committing my life

00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:14.559
 to Christ meant

00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:15.360
 not going back

00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:16.599
 to my heterosexual past

00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:17.559
 but going forward

00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:19.059
 to something entirely new.

00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:20.440
 So in other words,

00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:21.960
 Paul doesn't say

00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:23.220
 the main problem

00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:23.799
 in your life

00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:24.819
 is that you're gay

00:18:24.819 --> 00:18:25.440
 and you need

00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.180
 to get straight.

00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:27.980
 He says,

00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:28.720
 the main problem

00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:29.299
 in your life

00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:29.860
 is that you are

00:18:29.860 --> 00:18:31.160
 alienated from God

00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:31.779
 and that's true

00:18:31.779 --> 00:18:33.539
 of every one of us.

00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:36.480
 And homosexuality

00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:37.519
 is just one symptom

00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:38.779
 of that broader

00:18:38.779 --> 00:18:39.940
 alienation from God

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:41.660
 and what you need,

00:18:41.900 --> 00:18:43.019
 what we all need

00:18:43.019 --> 00:18:44.140
 is to be reconciled

00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:44.539
 to God

00:18:44.539 --> 00:18:45.480
 through Jesus Christ

00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:47.380
 and then to begin

00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:48.620
 to sort of

00:18:48.620 --> 00:18:49.340
 experience

00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:50.140
 the redemption

00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:50.900
 of our bodies

00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:52.600
 and working for that.

00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.419
 let me stop

00:18:56.419 --> 00:18:57.719
 and take any questions

00:18:57.719 --> 00:18:58.740
 about these passages.

00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:06.799
 Okay.

00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:08.740
 A couple other

00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:10.419
 sort of common objections

00:19:10.419 --> 00:19:11.799
 that people present.

00:19:11.939 --> 00:19:12.379
 One is,

00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:13.699
 but Jesus didn't say

00:19:13.699 --> 00:19:15.259
 anything about homosexuality.

00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:16.659
 You know,

00:19:16.879 --> 00:19:17.279
 I mean,

00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:18.659
 maybe this was

00:19:18.659 --> 00:19:19.779
 just Paul's hang-up.

00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:21.639
 Paul was influenced

00:19:21.639 --> 00:19:23.160
 by rabbinic traditions

00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:24.440
 and,

00:19:24.619 --> 00:19:25.000
 you know,

00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:25.839
 he's just sort of

00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:26.779
 expressing a cultural

00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:27.619
 view of his time.

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:28.700
 Well,

00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:30.160
 a couple things.

00:19:30.259 --> 00:19:30.480
 First,

00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:31.000
 within Jesus'

00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:32.220
 Jewish cultural context,

00:19:32.299 --> 00:19:33.160
 there was no debate

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:34.759
 about homosexual practice.

00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:36.559
 It was universally regarded

00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.279
 as contrary

00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.000
 to God's will

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:38.599
 and typical

00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.279
 of the Gentile

00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:41.139
 pagan world

00:19:41.139 --> 00:19:42.000
 outside.

00:19:42.879 --> 00:19:43.279
 And so,

00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:45.019
 and when Jesus

00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:46.359
 disagreed with the Pharisees,

00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:47.139
 he did not tend

00:19:47.139 --> 00:19:47.740
 to hide

00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:48.660
 his disagreement.

00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:50.680
 We have lots of examples

00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.000
 where Jesus disagreed

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.500
 openly with the Pharisees

00:19:53.500 --> 00:19:54.480
 about all kinds of things.

00:19:54.540 --> 00:19:54.759
 And so,

00:19:54.840 --> 00:19:55.680
 if Jesus was silent

00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:56.380
 about something,

00:19:56.560 --> 00:19:57.720
 it probably means

00:19:57.720 --> 00:19:59.000
 he agreed.

00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:00.560
 And actually,

00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:01.120
 specifically,

00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:02.600
 Jesus explicitly affirmed

00:20:02.600 --> 00:20:03.560
 male-female marriage

00:20:03.560 --> 00:20:04.540
 in Matthew 19,

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:06.140
 referring back

00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:06.980
 to Genesis 1,

00:20:07.460 --> 00:20:08.360
 have you not read,

00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:09.480
 he who created them

00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:10.140
 from the beginning

00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:10.940
 made them male

00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:11.640
 and female

00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:12.820
 and said,

00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:13.920
 therefore a man

00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:14.800
 shall leave his father

00:20:14.800 --> 00:20:15.180
 and mother

00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:15.880
 and hold fast

00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:16.420
 to his wife

00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:16.820
 and the two

00:20:16.820 --> 00:20:17.400
 shall become

00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:18.600
 one flesh.

00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.500
 So,

00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:20.240
 Jesus' reasoning

00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:21.940
 is as follows.

00:20:22.600 --> 00:20:23.620
 God made us

00:20:23.620 --> 00:20:24.560
 male and female,

00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:25.860
 two complementary

00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:26.680
 sexes,

00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:28.080
 therefore marriage

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:28.620
 is intended

00:20:28.620 --> 00:20:29.720
 to be monogamous

00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:30.920
 between two people,

00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:31.900
 not polygamous,

00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:33.360
 and unbroken,

00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:35.300
 not a cycle

00:20:35.300 --> 00:20:36.660
 of repeated divorce

00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.540
 and remarriage.

00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:39.620
 That's what he was

00:20:39.620 --> 00:20:40.340
 talking about.

00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:41.940
 People were sort of

00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:43.100
 pursuing divorce

00:20:43.100 --> 00:20:45.140
 for very light

00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:45.940
 reasons

00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:50.360
 and for not

00:20:50.360 --> 00:20:51.340
 very serious reasons

00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:51.860
 and Jesus says,

00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:52.059
 no,

00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:53.100
 that's not God's

00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:53.559
 intention.

00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:54.960
 God's intention

00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:56.200
 is that marriage

00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:56.840
 is a picture

00:20:56.840 --> 00:20:58.960
 of male and female

00:20:58.960 --> 00:20:59.840
 united together

00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:00.480
 and ultimately

00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:01.259
 God and his people

00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:02.000
 united together.

00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:02.720
 Now,

00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:03.100
 if you take

00:21:03.100 --> 00:21:04.019
 that same reasoning

00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:05.980
 to complementary

00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:06.539
 sexes,

00:21:06.620 --> 00:21:06.779
 well,

00:21:07.220 --> 00:21:07.940
 marriage also

00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:08.559
 has to be

00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.380
 male and female.

00:21:09.380 --> 00:21:10.220
 right?

00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:14.080
 And the only

00:21:14.080 --> 00:21:14.600
 other option

00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:15.200
 Jesus commended

00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:15.940
 was celibacy

00:21:15.940 --> 00:21:16.820
 for God's kingdom.

00:21:17.820 --> 00:21:18.240
 So,

00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:19.000
 I think Jesus

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:19.820
 does say things

00:21:19.820 --> 00:21:20.720
 that have implications

00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:21.180
 here.

00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:22.660
 Other question,

00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:22.980
 well,

00:21:23.080 --> 00:21:24.380
 couldn't we just

00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:25.500
 agree to disagree

00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:26.340
 even if

00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:27.880
 maybe that's,

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:28.300
 you know,

00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:29.540
 how we understand

00:21:29.540 --> 00:21:29.960
 the Bible,

00:21:30.060 --> 00:21:30.680
 maybe other people

00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:31.260
 understand it

00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:31.640
 differently.

00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:33.760
 But,

00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:34.140
 you know,

00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.580
 Paul mentioned

00:21:35.580 --> 00:21:36.580
 some kinds of things

00:21:36.580 --> 00:21:37.140
 where Christians

00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:38.000
 can agree to disagree,

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:38.539
 you know,

00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:39.180
 what kinds of foods

00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:39.720
 we eat,

00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:41.200
 what days we observe,

00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:42.019
 you know,

00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:42.559
 whether or not

00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:43.380
 you drink alcohol

00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:44.380
 in moderation.

00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:46.160
 But Paul warns

00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.299
 strongly against

00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:48.440
 greed,

00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:49.640
 lying,

00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:51.299
 pride,

00:21:51.859 --> 00:21:52.119
 bitterness,

00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:53.519
 rage,

00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.039
 and sexual immorality.

00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:57.019
 And he doesn't

00:21:57.019 --> 00:21:58.140
 consider those things

00:21:58.140 --> 00:21:59.319
 disputable matters

00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:00.519
 where Christians

00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:01.420
 can agree to disagree.

00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:04.099
 He warns strongly

00:22:04.099 --> 00:22:04.700
 against them.

00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:05.839
 And I think

00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:06.619
 in the bigger picture,

00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:07.920
 drawing boundaries

00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.240
 is not inherently

00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:09.920
 unloving.

00:22:10.100 --> 00:22:10.840
 Every church,

00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:11.480
 even the most

00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:12.420
 progressive church,

00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:13.759
 will want to draw

00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:14.960
 some boundaries

00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:16.860
 on attitudes

00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:17.779
 and behaviors,

00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:18.539
 whether it's sexual

00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:19.259
 or otherwise,

00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:20.500
 that are seen

00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:21.480
 as exploitative

00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.400
 or harmful

00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.759
 or wrong,

00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:26.160
 right?

00:22:26.259 --> 00:22:27.180
 This is not what

00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:28.039
 we want to characterize

00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:28.860
 our community,

00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:29.740
 right?

00:22:29.820 --> 00:22:30.640
 Every community

00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:31.380
 is going to draw

00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:32.640
 some boundaries.

00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:33.759
 And I think

00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:34.580
 really the question

00:22:34.579 --> 00:22:35.159
 is,

00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:36.740
 how do we,

00:22:37.199 --> 00:22:38.619
 in love

00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:40.379
 and patience

00:22:40.379 --> 00:22:41.720
 and clarity

00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:42.799
 and humility,

00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:44.299
 how do we

00:22:44.299 --> 00:22:45.539
 sort of seek

00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:46.980
 to live within,

00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:47.859
 communicate

00:22:47.859 --> 00:22:48.819
 and live together

00:22:48.819 --> 00:22:50.059
 within the wise

00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:50.879
 boundaries that God

00:22:50.879 --> 00:22:51.919
 has set out for us?

00:22:52.919 --> 00:22:53.679
 Yes,

00:22:54.139 --> 00:22:54.480
 many,

00:22:55.179 --> 00:22:56.559
 it's true

00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:57.319
 that many

00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:58.699
 gay and lesbian

00:22:58.699 --> 00:22:59.899
 people have felt

00:22:59.899 --> 00:23:00.599
 very hurt

00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:01.199
 and shamed

00:23:01.199 --> 00:23:01.719
 by people

00:23:01.719 --> 00:23:02.119
 who hold

00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:02.599
 the traditional

00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:03.039
 view.

00:23:04.159 --> 00:23:05.119
 But I don't

00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:06.059
 think it's

00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:06.799
 automatically

00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.399
 just because

00:23:08.399 --> 00:23:09.159
 people hold

00:23:09.159 --> 00:23:09.559
 the traditional

00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:09.779
 view,

00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:10.399
 but often

00:23:10.399 --> 00:23:12.179
 we haven't

00:23:12.179 --> 00:23:12.799
 communicated

00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:13.599
 that

00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:14.219
 or

00:23:14.219 --> 00:23:15.219
 with

00:23:15.219 --> 00:23:15.899
 sort of

00:23:15.899 --> 00:23:16.339
 these kind

00:23:16.339 --> 00:23:16.919
 of Christ-like

00:23:16.919 --> 00:23:17.519
 qualities.

00:23:21.219 --> 00:23:21.819
 So,

00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.480
 conclusion,

00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:23.879
 I don't think

00:23:23.879 --> 00:23:24.259
 there's any

00:23:24.259 --> 00:23:24.899
 biblical warrant

00:23:24.899 --> 00:23:25.539
 to depart

00:23:25.539 --> 00:23:26.379
 from the

00:23:26.379 --> 00:23:26.819
 traditional

00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:27.740
 Christian view.

00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:28.980
 But,

00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:30.599
 having said that,

00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:31.420
 I don't think

00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:32.220
 it's enough

00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:33.420
 to just say that.

00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:35.099
 I think we also

00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:35.839
 have to ask the

00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:36.160
 question,

00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:36.740
 what does it

00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:37.400
 look like

00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.359
 for a follower

00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:39.859
 of Christ

00:23:39.859 --> 00:23:40.559
 who experiences

00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:41.460
 same-sex attraction

00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:42.539
 to live a life

00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.339
 of flourishing

00:23:43.339 --> 00:23:44.220
 and growth

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:45.200
 and

00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.120
 redemption?

00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:49.460
 Well,

00:23:49.660 --> 00:23:50.259
 let me just

00:23:50.259 --> 00:23:51.240
 briefly look

00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:51.779
 at broader

00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:52.559
 context of

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:53.019
 these two

00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:53.480
 passages,

00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:54.539
 1 Corinthians 6

00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:55.759
 and Romans 1,

00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:56.680
 that speak

00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:57.500
 particularly

00:23:57.500 --> 00:23:58.000
 about

00:23:58.000 --> 00:23:59.740
 homosexuality.

00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:01.799
 You know,

00:24:01.859 --> 00:24:02.480
 that 1 Corinthians

00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:03.180
 passage goes

00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:04.440
 on to

00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:04.880
 say,

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:07.279
 you know,

00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:07.599
 don't be,

00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:07.920
 it says,

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:08.220
 don't be

00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:08.680
 deceived,

00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:09.960
 people who

00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:10.400
 sort of

00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:10.920
 habitually

00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:12.920
 and sort

00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:13.299
 of

00:24:13.299 --> 00:24:14.319
 persistently

00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:15.519
 and unrepentantly

00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:16.119
 sort of

00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:16.839
 reflect these

00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:17.420
 qualities won't

00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:18.000
 inherit God's

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:18.140
 kingdom,

00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:18.720
 but then Paul

00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:19.000
 says,

00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:19.559
 and such

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:20.220
 were some

00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:20.779
 of you.

00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.220
 But,

00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:22.960
 you were

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:23.420
 washed,

00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:24.220
 you were

00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:24.859
 sanctified,

00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:25.420
 you were

00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:26.220
 justified in

00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:26.619
 the name of

00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:27.119
 the Lord Jesus

00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:27.639
 Christ and

00:24:27.639 --> 00:24:27.919
 by the

00:24:27.919 --> 00:24:28.299
 Spirit of

00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:28.679
 our God.

00:24:28.739 --> 00:24:29.099
 So Paul's

00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:29.399
 saying our

00:24:29.399 --> 00:24:29.699
 sexual

00:24:29.699 --> 00:24:30.479
 attractions and

00:24:30.479 --> 00:24:30.879
 even our

00:24:30.879 --> 00:24:31.500
 past sexual

00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:32.759
 sins are

00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:33.359
 not what

00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:34.199
 define us

00:24:34.199 --> 00:24:34.719
 at the

00:24:34.719 --> 00:24:35.299
 very deepest

00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:35.679
 level.

00:24:36.879 --> 00:24:37.619
 And man,

00:24:37.719 --> 00:24:38.139
 that is

00:24:38.139 --> 00:24:39.079
 good news.

00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:40.419
 That is

00:24:40.419 --> 00:24:41.099
 good news

00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:41.919
 for

00:24:41.919 --> 00:24:44.639
 everyone who

00:24:44.639 --> 00:24:45.119
 is engaged

00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:45.839
 in any kind

00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:46.199
 of sin

00:24:46.199 --> 00:24:46.719
 listed in

00:24:46.719 --> 00:24:47.179
 that list

00:24:47.179 --> 00:24:47.559
 or in

00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:47.879
 any of the

00:24:47.879 --> 00:24:48.299
 other sin

00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:49.000
 lists in

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:49.219
 the New

00:24:49.219 --> 00:24:49.559
 Testament.

00:24:49.719 --> 00:24:49.919
 And you

00:24:49.919 --> 00:24:50.159
 know what?

00:24:50.199 --> 00:24:50.559
 We all

00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:51.159
 find ourselves

00:24:51.159 --> 00:24:51.639
 in one of

00:24:51.639 --> 00:24:52.199
 those lists

00:24:52.199 --> 00:24:53.119
 somewhere.

00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.079
 that when

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:55.699
 God looks

00:24:55.699 --> 00:24:55.939
 at us

00:24:55.939 --> 00:24:56.119
 through

00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:56.599
 Christ,

00:24:56.739 --> 00:24:57.339
 that is

00:24:57.339 --> 00:24:57.739
 not what

00:24:57.739 --> 00:24:58.339
 defines us

00:24:58.339 --> 00:24:58.599
 at the

00:24:58.599 --> 00:24:58.839
 deepest

00:24:58.839 --> 00:24:59.199
 level.

00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:01.099
 And instead

00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:01.500
 in Christ

00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:01.819
 we have a

00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:02.339
 new identity,

00:25:02.459 --> 00:25:03.039
 we're washed,

00:25:03.139 --> 00:25:03.399
 that means

00:25:03.399 --> 00:25:04.539
 cleansed of

00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:05.039
 guilt and

00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:05.359
 shame,

00:25:05.459 --> 00:25:05.779
 we're set

00:25:05.779 --> 00:25:06.259
 apart for

00:25:06.259 --> 00:25:06.500
 God's

00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:07.139
 holy purposes,

00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:07.819
 sanctified,

00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:08.399
 and we're

00:25:08.399 --> 00:25:08.879
 justified,

00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:10.199
 declared

00:25:10.199 --> 00:25:10.919
 righteous in

00:25:10.919 --> 00:25:11.459
 God's sight

00:25:11.459 --> 00:25:11.919
 because of

00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:12.279
 Christ's

00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:12.799
 atoning work.

00:25:12.899 --> 00:25:13.219
 And the

00:25:13.219 --> 00:25:13.699
 chapter goes

00:25:13.699 --> 00:25:14.119
 on to talk

00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:14.439
 about how

00:25:14.439 --> 00:25:14.799
 now our

00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:15.199
 bodies are

00:25:15.199 --> 00:25:15.719
 temples of

00:25:15.719 --> 00:25:16.019
 the Holy

00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:16.299
 Spirit.

00:25:16.419 --> 00:25:17.139
 God has

00:25:17.139 --> 00:25:17.519
 come to

00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:18.039
 dwell in

00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:18.559
 our bodies.

00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:18.960
 And so

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.179
 even when

00:25:21.179 --> 00:25:21.679
 our bodies

00:25:21.679 --> 00:25:21.980
 have been

00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:22.659
 used in

00:25:22.659 --> 00:25:23.659
 ways that

00:25:23.659 --> 00:25:24.460
 dishonor God

00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:25.019
 and we feel

00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:25.440
 that very

00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:25.799
 deeply,

00:25:26.259 --> 00:25:26.759
 God does

00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:28.099
 not see

00:25:28.099 --> 00:25:28.679
 us,

00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:30.419
 God comes

00:25:30.419 --> 00:25:31.159
 to dwell in

00:25:31.159 --> 00:25:31.579
 us by

00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:32.039
 his Holy

00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:32.659
 Spirit and

00:25:32.659 --> 00:25:33.179
 he honors

00:25:33.179 --> 00:25:33.639
 us.

00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:34.659
 And so

00:25:34.659 --> 00:25:35.179
 he doesn't

00:25:35.179 --> 00:25:35.659
 leave us

00:25:35.659 --> 00:25:36.159
 in a place

00:25:36.159 --> 00:25:36.599
 of self

00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.440
 hatred or

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:38.460
 shame or

00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:38.899
 sort of

00:25:38.899 --> 00:25:39.559
 despair,

00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:40.740
 but he

00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.720
 comes and

00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:42.419
 brings healing

00:25:42.419 --> 00:25:43.039
 and hope.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:45.619
 There's a

00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:46.099
 similar pattern

00:25:46.099 --> 00:25:46.379
 in the book

00:25:46.379 --> 00:25:46.899
 of Romans,

00:25:47.379 --> 00:25:47.839
 again,

00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:48.599
 about,

00:25:49.199 --> 00:25:49.839
 you know,

00:25:49.879 --> 00:25:50.240
 the beginning

00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:50.699
 of Romans

00:25:50.699 --> 00:25:51.059
 is about

00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:51.679
 how all

00:25:51.679 --> 00:25:52.179
 humanity

00:25:52.179 --> 00:25:52.720
 has fallen

00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.299
 into sin

00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:53.519
 and,

00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:54.159
 you know,

00:25:54.259 --> 00:25:54.779
 Paul talks

00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:55.339
 about the

00:25:55.339 --> 00:25:56.000
 sins that

00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:56.720
 were characteristic

00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.119
 of the

00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:57.859
 Gentile world

00:25:57.859 --> 00:25:58.539
 in Romans 1

00:25:58.539 --> 00:25:58.980
 and then he

00:25:58.980 --> 00:25:59.539
 turns to the

00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:00.559
 religious world,

00:26:00.679 --> 00:26:01.019
 the Jewish

00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:01.439
 world,

00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:01.779
 and he

00:26:01.779 --> 00:26:02.099
 says,

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:04.339
 self-righteousness

00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:05.799
 is just as

00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:07.019
 damning as

00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:08.299
 all of these

00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:08.899
 other sins.

00:26:10.439 --> 00:26:11.439
 And his

00:26:11.439 --> 00:26:12.059
 conclusion is

00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:12.740
 both Jew and

00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:13.619
 Gentile are all

00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:14.399
 under the power

00:26:14.399 --> 00:26:14.819
 of sin.

00:26:14.919 --> 00:26:15.519
 We are all

00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:16.039
 in the same

00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:16.359
 boat.

00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:18.139
 And what's

00:26:18.139 --> 00:26:18.559
 our hope?

00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:19.559
 Our hope is

00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:20.719
 Christ came

00:26:20.719 --> 00:26:21.379
 to die for us

00:26:21.379 --> 00:26:21.740
 while we were

00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:22.219
 still sinners

00:26:22.219 --> 00:26:22.619
 out of his

00:26:22.619 --> 00:26:23.279
 love for us.

00:26:23.879 --> 00:26:24.139
 And through

00:26:24.139 --> 00:26:24.500
 him we can

00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:26.539
 be buried

00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:27.039
 with him

00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:27.559
 and raised

00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:28.019
 with him

00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:28.659
 and walk

00:26:28.659 --> 00:26:29.059
 in newness

00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:29.459
 of life.

00:26:29.859 --> 00:26:30.519
 And Romans

00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:31.219
 is very

00:26:31.219 --> 00:26:31.740
 realistic.

00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:32.219
 You know,

00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:32.659
 read Romans

00:26:32.659 --> 00:26:33.000
 7.

00:26:33.199 --> 00:26:33.799
 You're struggling

00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:34.199
 with sin?

00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:34.619
 Read Romans

00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:34.919
 7.

00:26:36.699 --> 00:26:37.059
 Yeah.

00:26:37.699 --> 00:26:38.339
 It's real.

00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:40.199
 I do what I

00:26:40.199 --> 00:26:40.799
 don't want to do

00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:41.559
 and I don't do

00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:42.039
 what I don't

00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:42.419
 want to do.

00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:42.759
 You know,

00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:43.120
 I mean,

00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:45.220
 this weekend

00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:45.720
 I was there

00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:46.180
 with like

00:26:46.180 --> 00:26:46.980
 getting really

00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:47.680
 impatient at my

00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:48.220
 kids and yelling

00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:48.779
 at them like

00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:49.340
 over and over

00:26:49.340 --> 00:26:50.360
 and I had to

00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:51.259
 repent over and

00:26:51.259 --> 00:26:51.800
 over to them.

00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:52.519
 Like even though

00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:53.180
 they needed to

00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:53.920
 repent over and

00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.480
 over as well.

00:26:56.380 --> 00:26:57.060
 You know,

00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.300
 like I do

00:26:59.300 --> 00:26:59.640
 what I don't

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:00.560
 want to do.

00:27:00.940 --> 00:27:01.019
 And,

00:27:02.019 --> 00:27:03.700
 you know,

00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:04.779
 but then Romans

00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:05.100
 says,

00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:05.920
 Romans 8 says

00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:06.360
 there's no

00:27:06.360 --> 00:27:07.180
 condemnation for

00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:07.720
 all who are in

00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:08.259
 Christ Jesus.

00:27:08.259 --> 00:27:10.420
 And then it

00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:10.980
 points us toward

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:11.539
 the future hope

00:27:11.539 --> 00:27:12.359
 of our

00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.299
 redemption of

00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:15.039
 our bodies.

00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:17.180
 So,

00:27:18.259 --> 00:27:21.539
 to what are

00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:22.160
 Christians who

00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:22.920
 experience same

00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:23.559
 sex attraction

00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:24.059
 called to?

00:27:24.099 --> 00:27:24.779
 I've included a

00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:25.879
 quote from C.S.

00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:26.180
 Lewis.

00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:27.940
 This was back

00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:28.640
 in the 50s,

00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.339
 but a college

00:27:31.339 --> 00:27:31.960
 professor who

00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:32.279
 had recently

00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:32.759
 become a

00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:34.279
 Christian and

00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:35.799
 wrote to

00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:36.339
 Lewis and was

00:27:36.339 --> 00:27:37.059
 basically like,

00:27:37.660 --> 00:27:37.920
 hmm,

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:38.620
 like some

00:27:38.620 --> 00:27:39.220
 college students

00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:39.820
 are coming to

00:27:39.820 --> 00:27:40.200
 us and,

00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:40.940
 you know,

00:27:41.100 --> 00:27:41.820
 saying that

00:27:41.820 --> 00:27:42.920
 they,

00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:43.720
 you know,

00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:45.420
 only feel

00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:45.740
 desire,

00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:46.259
 you know,

00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:48.880
 only feel

00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:49.420
 same-sex

00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:49.860
 attraction.

00:27:50.620 --> 00:27:51.240
 What should

00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:51.580
 we do?

00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:52.560
 So,

00:27:52.620 --> 00:27:52.980
 I've included

00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:53.680
 Lewis's quote.

00:27:53.779 --> 00:27:54.259
 I think there's

00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:55.160
 a lot of good

00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:56.279
 stuff in

00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:58.580
 there.

00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:00.340
 But one of

00:28:00.340 --> 00:28:00.800
 the things that

00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:02.039
 he says is,

00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:04.380
 you know,

00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:06.140
 is every,

00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:07.220
 well,

00:28:07.320 --> 00:28:07.620
 let's see.

00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:07.979
 So,

00:28:08.459 --> 00:28:10.739
 I'll read

00:28:10.739 --> 00:28:11.279
 some of this.

00:28:11.699 --> 00:28:11.779
 So,

00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:12.419
 Jesus' disciples

00:28:12.419 --> 00:28:13.139
 were not told

00:28:13.139 --> 00:28:14.019
 why the man

00:28:14.019 --> 00:28:14.859
 was born blind

00:28:14.859 --> 00:28:15.899
 in John 9.

00:28:16.539 --> 00:28:16.979
 Only,

00:28:17.479 --> 00:28:18.379
 the final cause

00:28:18.379 --> 00:28:19.079
 or God's purpose

00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:19.439
 is that the

00:28:19.439 --> 00:28:20.099
 works of God

00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:20.679
 should be made

00:28:20.679 --> 00:28:21.739
 manifest in him.

00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:22.500
 This suggests

00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:23.939
 that in homosexuality,

00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:25.059
 as in every other

00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:25.699
 tribulation,

00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:26.859
 God's works

00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:27.479
 can be made

00:28:27.479 --> 00:28:27.859
 manifest.

00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:28.639
 In other words,

00:28:28.699 --> 00:28:29.659
 that every disability

00:28:29.659 --> 00:28:30.959
 conceals a vocation,

00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:32.759
 if only we can find it,

00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:33.859
 which will turn the

00:28:33.859 --> 00:28:34.279
 necessity

00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:35.599
 to glorious gain.

00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:36.319
 Right?

00:28:36.379 --> 00:28:36.899
 What he's saying

00:28:36.899 --> 00:28:37.799
 is that our

00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:38.279
 weaknesses

00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:40.719
 may actually be

00:28:40.719 --> 00:28:42.519
 sort of a doorway

00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:43.539
 to our calling,

00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:44.740
 our particular

00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:45.279
 calling as

00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:45.699
 Christians.

00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:48.839
 And he said,

00:28:48.919 --> 00:28:49.159
 at the end,

00:28:49.199 --> 00:28:49.439
 he says,

00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:50.179
 like all other

00:28:50.179 --> 00:28:50.699
 tribulations,

00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:51.139
 it must be

00:28:51.139 --> 00:28:51.779
 offered to God.

00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:52.339
 His guidance,

00:28:52.439 --> 00:28:53.099
 how to use it,

00:28:53.159 --> 00:28:53.959
 must be sought.

00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.160
 So,

00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:55.759
 to what are

00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.299
 Christians who

00:28:56.299 --> 00:28:56.799
 experience

00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:57.620
 same-sex attraction

00:28:57.620 --> 00:28:58.180
 called to?

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:00.400
 Well,

00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:01.039
 I think the first

00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:01.460
 thing scripture

00:29:01.460 --> 00:29:02.160
 says is,

00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:03.039
 for the present

00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:03.440
 time,

00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:04.460
 celibacy as an

00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:05.059
 expression of

00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:05.960
 devotion to Christ.

00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:07.079
 Now,

00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:07.299
 again,

00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:08.019
 many people object

00:29:08.019 --> 00:29:08.480
 to this,

00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:09.220
 and they say,

00:29:09.340 --> 00:29:09.960
 isn't that an

00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:10.799
 unfair burden

00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.200
 to put on every

00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:12.680
 Christian who

00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:13.120
 experiences

00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:13.620
 same-sex

00:29:13.620 --> 00:29:14.059
 attraction?

00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:15.880
 Celibacy should

00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:16.519
 be voluntary,

00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:17.960
 not forced.

00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.240
 But,

00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:22.900
 the reality is,

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:23.340
 there are many,

00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:24.000
 many Christians,

00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:25.880
 especially women,

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:26.539
 because generally

00:29:26.539 --> 00:29:26.920
 speaking,

00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:27.539
 women outnumber

00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:28.079
 men in the

00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:28.420
 church.

00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:29.779
 In some places,

00:29:30.019 --> 00:29:31.019
 I hear in some

00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:31.559
 parts of China,

00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:32.380
 the church is

00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:33.400
 80% female,

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:34.519
 in some places.

00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:35.259
 So,

00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:37.480
 many Christians

00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:38.480
 strongly desire to

00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:38.660
 marry,

00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:39.759
 but can't find

00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:40.519
 a willing,

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:41.740
 believing Christian

00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:42.660
 partner of the

00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:43.259
 opposite sex.

00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:46.799
 And hardly

00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:47.420
 anyone's,

00:29:47.420 --> 00:29:48.900
 and a bigger

00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:49.220
 picture,

00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:50.019
 when Christ

00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:50.539
 calls his

00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:50.940
 disciples,

00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:51.740
 he calls each

00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:52.140
 of us to

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:52.600
 take up our

00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:53.140
 cross and

00:29:53.140 --> 00:29:53.720
 follow him.

00:29:55.140 --> 00:29:55.620
 And,

00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:56.860
 most of our

00:29:56.860 --> 00:29:57.560
 crosses and

00:29:57.560 --> 00:29:57.940
 burdens,

00:29:58.420 --> 00:29:59.120
 maybe even all

00:29:59.120 --> 00:29:59.400
 of them,

00:29:59.860 --> 00:30:00.100
 I mean,

00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:00.720
 how many of us

00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.500
 choose our own

00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:01.900
 cross?

00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.440
 Jesus chose

00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.160
 his own cross.

00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:08.640
 He chose the

00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:09.600
 hardest one of

00:30:09.600 --> 00:30:09.880
 all,

00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:10.539
 bearing the sins

00:30:10.539 --> 00:30:11.060
 of the world,

00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:11.680
 which nobody

00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.320
 else could bear.

00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:13.920
 Right?

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:14.600
 But,

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:15.480
 most of us

00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:16.220
 don't have

00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:16.779
 anywhere near that

00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:17.140
 maturity.

00:30:17.420 --> 00:30:18.600
 to willingly

00:30:18.600 --> 00:30:19.120
 enter into

00:30:19.120 --> 00:30:19.660
 suffering for

00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:20.500
 redemption purposes.

00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:21.440
 Right?

00:30:23.320 --> 00:30:23.840
 I mean,

00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:24.320
 think of all

00:30:24.320 --> 00:30:25.039
 the crosses

00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:25.480
 and burdens

00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:25.940
 we face.

00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:26.259
 Physical

00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:26.860
 disabilities,

00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:27.620
 chronic pain,

00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:28.060
 depression,

00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:29.120
 childhood trauma,

00:30:29.259 --> 00:30:29.700
 and all its

00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:30.820
 complicated effects,

00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:31.640
 being born into

00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:32.380
 a dysfunctional

00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:32.700
 family,

00:30:33.100 --> 00:30:33.600
 being the victim

00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:34.160
 of racism

00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:34.940
 or persecution,

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:35.960
 parenting a

00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:36.680
 rebellious child,

00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:37.539
 most illnesses

00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:38.180
 marriage to a

00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:38.940
 difficult spouse.

00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:40.860
 Now,

00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:41.600
 same-sex attraction

00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:42.320
 has a particular

00:30:42.320 --> 00:30:42.800
 challenge,

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:44.300
 but it is far

00:30:44.300 --> 00:30:44.880
 from unique

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.120
 in that respect.

00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:47.920
 A challenge

00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:48.520
 for all of us

00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:49.040
 is to believe

00:30:49.040 --> 00:30:49.480
 that God

00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:50.000
 can redeem

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:50.500
 even our

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:51.360
 most unwanted

00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:51.900
 burdens

00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:52.720
 as we entrust

00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:53.480
 ourselves and

00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:53.960
 all of them

00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:54.460
 to Christ.

00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:58.380
 Second,

00:30:59.200 --> 00:30:59.700
 I think

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.700
 Christians who

00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:01.040
 experience

00:31:01.040 --> 00:31:01.860
 same-sex attraction

00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:03.240
 can receive

00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:03.779
 their identity

00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:04.519
 in Christ.

00:31:07.159 --> 00:31:07.819
 I want to leave

00:31:07.819 --> 00:31:08.179
 a little time

00:31:08.179 --> 00:31:08.579
 for questions,

00:31:08.699 --> 00:31:08.979
 so you know

00:31:08.979 --> 00:31:09.379
 I'm not going

00:31:09.379 --> 00:31:09.919
 to get into this

00:31:09.919 --> 00:31:10.199
 because I think

00:31:10.199 --> 00:31:10.619
 this is actually

00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:11.039
 not the most

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:11.519
 important thing,

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:12.019
 but there are

00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:12.679
 different ways

00:31:12.679 --> 00:31:13.019
 that Christians

00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:13.879
 describe themselves,

00:31:14.299 --> 00:31:14.659
 so there are

00:31:14.659 --> 00:31:14.979
 some people

00:31:14.979 --> 00:31:15.379
 who are calling

00:31:15.379 --> 00:31:16.099
 themselves celibate

00:31:16.099 --> 00:31:16.679
 gay Christians,

00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:17.419
 and there are

00:31:17.419 --> 00:31:17.740
 some people

00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:18.059
 who say,

00:31:18.179 --> 00:31:18.379
 no,

00:31:18.699 --> 00:31:19.399
 I don't think

00:31:19.399 --> 00:31:19.939
 that's wise

00:31:19.939 --> 00:31:20.559
 to sort of

00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:21.279
 take on the

00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:21.819
 label gay,

00:31:21.939 --> 00:31:22.359
 I'm going to

00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:22.779
 call myself

00:31:22.779 --> 00:31:23.179
 a Christian

00:31:23.179 --> 00:31:23.779
 with same-sex

00:31:23.779 --> 00:31:24.219
 attraction,

00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:25.579
 there are

00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:26.039
 different reasons

00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:26.519
 for that.

00:31:28.039 --> 00:31:28.699
 My favorite

00:31:28.699 --> 00:31:29.339
 answer to this

00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:29.779
 question,

00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.419
 sort of speaking

00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:31.960
 to a Christian

00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:32.480
 who experiences

00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:33.259
 same-sex attraction

00:31:33.259 --> 00:31:33.560
 like,

00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:34.180
 are you gay?

00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:36.039
 was from a guy

00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:36.380
 who I knew

00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:37.019
 several years ago

00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:37.360
 who was a

00:31:37.360 --> 00:31:37.900
 Spanish major,

00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:38.360
 and he said,

00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.779
 estoy pero no soy,

00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:41.460
 and if you know

00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:41.779
 Spanish,

00:31:41.860 --> 00:31:42.120
 you know what

00:31:42.120 --> 00:31:42.620
 that means,

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:43.920
 because estoy

00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:44.360
 means,

00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:44.840
 this is how

00:31:44.840 --> 00:31:45.500
 I'm experiencing

00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:46.100
 life,

00:31:48.060 --> 00:31:48.880
 soy means,

00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:49.820
 this is my

00:31:49.820 --> 00:31:50.820
 essential and

00:31:50.820 --> 00:31:51.880
 unchangeable self

00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:52.860
 at the deepest

00:31:52.860 --> 00:31:53.180
 level,

00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:55.259
 and so,

00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:55.700
 yes,

00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:56.580
 I am at one

00:31:56.580 --> 00:31:56.860
 level,

00:31:57.740 --> 00:31:58.460
 that's how I'm

00:31:58.460 --> 00:31:59.100
 experiencing life

00:31:59.100 --> 00:31:59.600
 right now,

00:32:00.600 --> 00:32:01.160
 and it's

00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:02.180
 a significant

00:32:02.180 --> 00:32:03.340
 experience,

00:32:04.100 --> 00:32:04.759
 but is that

00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:05.620
 what defines me

00:32:05.620 --> 00:32:06.040
 at the deepest

00:32:06.040 --> 00:32:06.320
 level?

00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:06.580
 No.

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:10.940
 Third,

00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:11.880
 here's a

00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:12.580
 challenging

00:32:12.580 --> 00:32:12.920
 question,

00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:13.220
 should we

00:32:13.220 --> 00:32:13.820
 pray and

00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:14.460
 hope or

00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:15.340
 expect for

00:32:15.340 --> 00:32:15.720
 someone's

00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:16.000
 sexual

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.380
 attractions

00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:16.920
 to change

00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.220
 from gay

00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:17.580
 to straight

00:32:17.580 --> 00:32:17.860
 through the

00:32:17.860 --> 00:32:18.200
 power of

00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:18.500
 Christ?

00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.180
 Well,

00:32:20.360 --> 00:32:20.600
 biblical

00:32:20.600 --> 00:32:21.040
 principles,

00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:21.380
 one,

00:32:21.500 --> 00:32:21.779
 changing

00:32:21.779 --> 00:32:22.180
 one's

00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:22.480
 sexual

00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:22.940
 attractions

00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:23.340
 is not

00:32:23.340 --> 00:32:23.759
 the primary

00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.240
 goal for

00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:24.680
 Christians,

00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:25.779
 as Christopher

00:32:25.779 --> 00:32:26.400
 Yuan says,

00:32:26.620 --> 00:32:27.040
 the goal is

00:32:27.040 --> 00:32:28.040
 not heterosexuality,

00:32:28.120 --> 00:32:28.620
 but holiness.

00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:29.560
 There are all

00:32:29.560 --> 00:32:29.920
 kinds of

00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:30.779
 heterosexual sin,

00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:33.140
 that are not

00:32:33.140 --> 00:32:33.600
 pleasing to

00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:33.900
 God,

00:32:34.800 --> 00:32:35.620
 and are not

00:32:35.620 --> 00:32:36.700
 better than

00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:37.920
 having same-sex

00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:38.660
 attraction and

00:32:38.660 --> 00:32:39.259
 living a life of

00:32:39.259 --> 00:32:39.980
 faithful celibacy,

00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:40.420
 in fact,

00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:40.779
 they're much

00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:41.140
 worse.

00:32:43.360 --> 00:32:44.140
 At the same

00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:44.380
 time,

00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:44.860
 nothing is

00:32:44.860 --> 00:32:45.600
 impossible with

00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:45.960
 God,

00:32:46.560 --> 00:32:48.940
 and there are

00:32:48.940 --> 00:32:49.620
 many who can

00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:50.300
 testify to that.

00:32:50.779 --> 00:32:51.000
 So,

00:32:51.080 --> 00:32:51.920
 practical realities.

00:32:53.500 --> 00:32:54.300
 One thing,

00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:55.100
 so,

00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:55.980
 concern that's

00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:56.620
 often out there,

00:32:56.779 --> 00:32:57.620
 reparative therapy

00:32:57.619 --> 00:32:58.759
 is a

00:32:58.759 --> 00:32:59.279
 psychological

00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.359
 technique

00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:00.959
 with the

00:33:00.959 --> 00:33:01.419
 goal of

00:33:01.419 --> 00:33:02.000
 changing from

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:02.559
 a homosexual

00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:03.419
 orientation to

00:33:03.419 --> 00:33:04.079
 a heterosexual

00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:04.659
 orientation.

00:33:05.219 --> 00:33:05.399
 It is

00:33:05.399 --> 00:33:06.239
 increasingly under

00:33:06.239 --> 00:33:06.899
 attack by

00:33:06.899 --> 00:33:07.719
 the gay

00:33:07.719 --> 00:33:08.159
 community in

00:33:08.159 --> 00:33:08.539
 particular.

00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:09.379
 It is now

00:33:09.379 --> 00:33:10.139
 illegal in

00:33:10.139 --> 00:33:10.859
 18 U.S.

00:33:10.939 --> 00:33:11.279
 states to

00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:11.919
 counsel minors

00:33:11.919 --> 00:33:12.279
 in this

00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:12.599
 way.

00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:14.259
 Christians who

00:33:14.259 --> 00:33:14.659
 affirm the

00:33:14.659 --> 00:33:14.979
 traditional

00:33:14.979 --> 00:33:15.419
 view should

00:33:15.419 --> 00:33:16.119
 not necessarily

00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:16.879
 defend or

00:33:16.879 --> 00:33:17.539
 promote the

00:33:17.539 --> 00:33:18.079
 practice of

00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:18.439
 reparative

00:33:18.439 --> 00:33:18.879
 therapy.

00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.680
 So,

00:33:22.860 --> 00:33:23.200
 these are

00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:23.480
 not the

00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:24.080
 same thing,

00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:26.060
 and some,

00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:27.220
 so,

00:33:27.620 --> 00:33:29.220
 let me just

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:30.320
 say that and

00:33:30.320 --> 00:33:30.740
 put that out

00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:30.940
 there.

00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:34.620
 Sometimes it's

00:33:34.620 --> 00:33:35.360
 sort of a,

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:36.520
 it can be a

00:33:36.520 --> 00:33:37.180
 sort of knee-jerk

00:33:37.180 --> 00:33:38.060
 reaction of

00:33:38.060 --> 00:33:39.220
 parents when a

00:33:39.220 --> 00:33:39.860
 child comes out

00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:40.260
 to them,

00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:41.060
 we need to get

00:33:41.060 --> 00:33:41.340
 you some

00:33:41.340 --> 00:33:42.020
 counseling and

00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:42.480
 sort of get

00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:42.980
 you fixed.

00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:45.820
 Well,

00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:46.420
 that's not a

00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:46.800
 Christ-centered

00:33:46.800 --> 00:33:47.380
 response.

00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:49.020
 Actually.

00:33:52.700 --> 00:33:53.100
 So,

00:33:53.260 --> 00:33:53.860
 practical realities.

00:33:54.020 --> 00:33:54.580
 If you're

00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:55.240
 content to

00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:55.800
 pursue a life

00:33:55.800 --> 00:33:56.380
 of consecrated

00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:57.100
 Christian singleness,

00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:57.860
 whether you

00:33:57.860 --> 00:33:58.540
 experience same-sex

00:33:58.540 --> 00:33:58.960
 attraction or

00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.900
 not, but say

00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:01.460
 you do experience

00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:02.080
 same-sex attraction,

00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:02.780
 there's no need

00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:03.460
 or pressure to

00:34:03.460 --> 00:34:04.420
 cultivate sexual

00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:05.100
 desires for the

00:34:05.100 --> 00:34:05.740
 opposite sex.

00:34:05.820 --> 00:34:06.440
 In some ways,

00:34:06.500 --> 00:34:06.980
 those would only

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:07.560
 present a different

00:34:07.560 --> 00:34:08.200
 kind of temptation.

00:34:09.240 --> 00:34:09.880
 You can focus

00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:10.660
 instead on living

00:34:10.660 --> 00:34:11.619
 a flourishing life

00:34:11.619 --> 00:34:13.300
 of consecrated

00:34:13.300 --> 00:34:14.280
 Christian singleness.

00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.019
 If you do want

00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:16.619
 to get married to

00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:17.039
 somebody of the

00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:17.519
 opposite sex,

00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:18.039
 but feel it's

00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:18.739
 impossible because

00:34:18.739 --> 00:34:19.279
 you've only ever

00:34:19.279 --> 00:34:19.920
 felt same-sex

00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.360
 attraction,

00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:21.320
 I think that

00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:21.880
 could be a

00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:22.340
 matter worth

00:34:22.340 --> 00:34:22.980
 talking through

00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:23.360
 and praying

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:24.300
 about along

00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:24.759
 with close

00:34:24.759 --> 00:34:25.579
 friends and

00:34:25.579 --> 00:34:26.179
 wise Christian

00:34:26.179 --> 00:34:26.539
 leaders.

00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:27.980
 But often I

00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:28.440
 will say the

00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:29.300
 process, and

00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:29.820
 this is true for

00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:30.239
 a lot of

00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:31.860
 things, the

00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.820
 process is at

00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:33.559
 least as important

00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:34.380
 as the outcome.

00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:35.900
 Right?

00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:36.679
 Sometimes there's a

00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:37.279
 presenting issue

00:34:37.279 --> 00:34:37.900
 that comes up in

00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:38.759
 our life and we

00:34:38.759 --> 00:34:39.860
 think, I want God

00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:40.739
 to change this and

00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:41.279
 fix this.

00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:41.820
 And you know

00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:42.000
 what?

00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:42.719
 There's five or

00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.480
 six other issues

00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:44.539
 below that that God

00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:45.360
 wants to deal with

00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:46.159
 even more than that

00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.379
 issue.

00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:47.799
 Right?

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:50.640
 So sometimes that

00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:52.440
 sort of will bring

00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:53.760
 out maybe deeper

00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:54.580
 wounds, if those are

00:34:54.580 --> 00:34:55.340
 part of your story,

00:34:55.820 --> 00:34:56.600
 not part of everyone's

00:34:56.600 --> 00:34:57.720
 story, but part of

00:34:57.720 --> 00:34:58.420
 some people's story.

00:34:59.780 --> 00:35:00.960
 So again, resist the

00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:01.880
 temptation to idolize

00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:02.519
 marriage even if you

00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:03.700
 desire it, but that

00:35:03.700 --> 00:35:04.680
 can be a process worth

00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:05.380
 engaging in.

00:35:06.220 --> 00:35:07.180
 If you're constantly

00:35:07.180 --> 00:35:08.280
 overwhelmed by lust or

00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:09.019
 are regularly falling

00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:09.780
 into addictive or

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:10.600
 habitual patterns of

00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:11.840
 sin, again, whether

00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:12.460
 homosexual or

00:35:12.460 --> 00:35:13.320
 heterosexual, seek

00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:13.640
 help.

00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.659
 Talk with a pastor,

00:35:16.059 --> 00:35:16.379
 seek some

00:35:16.379 --> 00:35:18.400
 accountability, join a

00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:19.799
 sex addiction recovery

00:35:19.799 --> 00:35:20.139
 group.

00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:21.440
 There's all kinds of

00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.000
 things you can do, but

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:23.539
 do something.

00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:24.659
 Okay?

00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:25.940
 And don't just stay.

00:35:26.059 --> 00:35:26.920
 That's not a good place

00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:27.900
 to stay as a Christian.

00:35:29.819 --> 00:35:30.980
 Christians who pursued a

00:35:30.980 --> 00:35:31.599
 change of attraction

00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.519
 report a wide range of

00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:32.759
 results.

00:35:32.859 --> 00:35:33.519
 A small number of

00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:34.359
 people have experienced

00:35:34.359 --> 00:35:34.920
 a change in their

00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:35.579
 overall sexual

00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:36.119
 attractions.

00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:39.259
 A larger number of

00:35:39.259 --> 00:35:39.900
 people have entered

00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:40.719
 into a marriage with

00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:41.440
 someone of the opposite

00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:42.380
 sex and found it

00:35:42.380 --> 00:35:43.259
 possible to be sexually

00:35:43.259 --> 00:35:44.199
 attracted to that one

00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:45.779
 person while still

00:35:45.779 --> 00:35:47.679
 experiencing frequent or

00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.400
 occasional same-sex

00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:49.839
 attractions.

00:35:50.799 --> 00:35:51.679
 So Rachel Gilson is

00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:52.480
 somebody who's talked

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:53.420
 pretty openly about

00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:53.759
 this.

00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.539
 Rachel Gilson came to

00:35:55.539 --> 00:35:56.500
 faith in Christ while

00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:57.659
 she was dating a woman

00:35:57.659 --> 00:35:58.779
 and as an undergraduate

00:35:58.779 --> 00:35:59.719
 at Yale, and she came

00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:01.000
 to faith partly through

00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:01.579
 the ministry of this

00:36:01.579 --> 00:36:01.859
 church.

00:36:02.339 --> 00:36:03.199
 So she ended up getting

00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:03.920
 baptized here.

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:05.219
 She became a member of

00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:05.599
 the church.

00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:06.259
 She was here for about

00:36:06.259 --> 00:36:06.739
 10 years.

00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:08.199
 She ended up marrying

00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:09.759
 a few years down the

00:36:09.759 --> 00:36:09.960
 road.

00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:10.500
 She ended up marrying

00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:11.259
 a man named Andrew.

00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:13.380
 They're both on set with

00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:15.239
 crew in the Boston area.

00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:17.579
 And Rachel has some

00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:18.980
 articles on her blog that

00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:20.239
 you can read, which are

00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:20.500
 great.

00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:24.500
 And she had an article in

00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:25.539
 Christianity Today called

00:36:25.539 --> 00:36:26.739
 I Never Became Straight.

00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:27.920
 Maybe that wasn't God's

00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:28.219
 goal.

00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:29.920
 And you think, well, wait a

00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:30.619
 minute, but you're in a

00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:31.380
 marriage to a man.

00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:33.940
 And she says, yes, but most

00:36:33.940 --> 00:36:35.179
 of my sexual temptations

00:36:35.179 --> 00:36:40.779
 are two women.

00:36:40.779 --> 00:36:40.899
 Right?

00:36:40.899 --> 00:36:41.279
 And she says, well, I'm

00:36:41.279 --> 00:36:41.719
 going to be a woman.

00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:41.819
 Right?

00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:45.099
 So God's given me a

00:36:45.099 --> 00:36:47.299
 marriage and an

00:36:47.299 --> 00:36:48.259
 attraction to my husband,

00:36:48.259 --> 00:36:49.739
 but he hasn't changed my

00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:51.099
 overall sexual attractions.

00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:54.679
 Other people have not found

00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:55.559
 their sexual attractions to

00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:56.420
 have changed significantly.

00:36:58.819 --> 00:37:01.880
 And I've included a quote at

00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:03.960
 the end from Wesley Hill,

00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.400
 which I'll read some of.

00:37:06.699 --> 00:37:07.920
 He says, so much of my life

00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.460
 as a homosexual Christian, by

00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:11.360
 that he means one with

00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.940
 homosexual desires or

00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:15.579
 attractions.

00:37:15.579 --> 00:37:19.259
 He's someone who's committed

00:37:19.259 --> 00:37:19.840
 to celibacy.

00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:20.940
 So, so much of my life has

00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:22.000
 been simply learning how to

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.960
 wait, to be patient, to

00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:25.940
 endure, to bear up under an

00:37:25.940 --> 00:37:27.679
 unwelcome burden for the

00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:28.500
 long haul.

00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:32.279
 Be patient toward all that is

00:37:32.279 --> 00:37:33.699
 unsolved in your heart.

00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:35.960
 Having patience with your own

00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:37.480
 weaknesses is, I think,

00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:38.639
 something of what Paul was

00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:40.259
 commending when he described

00:37:40.259 --> 00:37:41.719
 the tension of living on this

00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:42.519
 side of wholeness.

00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.880
 When God acts climatically to

00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.039
 reclaim the world and raise

00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:46.960
 our dead bodies from the

00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:47.960
 grave, there will be no more

00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:48.900
 homosexuality.

00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:50.579
 But until then, we hope for

00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:51.460
 what we do not see.

00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:53.119
 We are washed and waiting.

00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:55.420
 That is my identity as one

00:37:55.420 --> 00:37:56.460
 who's been forgiven and

00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:57.759
 spiritually cleansed, and my

00:37:57.759 --> 00:37:58.639
 struggle as one who

00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:00.400
 perseveres with a frustrating

00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.400
 thorn in the flesh, looking

00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.539
 forward to what God has

00:38:03.539 --> 00:38:04.320
 promised to do.

00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:08.539
 And isn't, isn't that

00:38:08.539 --> 00:38:10.019
 something we can all

00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:12.699
 affirm?

00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:16.579
 All right.

00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:18.619
 Five minutes for questions,

00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:19.380
 comments.

00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:20.440
 Amy.

00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:23.300
 I've always struggled with the

00:38:23.300 --> 00:38:26.780
 Old Testament polygamy, David,

00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:29.900
 and people who God, he doesn't,

00:38:30.019 --> 00:38:31.219
 God doesn't, I mean, God talks

00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:32.219
 to them a lot, but he doesn't

00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:33.259
 talk to them about their

00:38:33.259 --> 00:38:34.559
 polygamous relationships, it

00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:35.719
 seems like, most of the time.

00:38:36.019 --> 00:38:37.860
 So, I don't know, I don't know

00:38:37.860 --> 00:38:38.860
 if someone could look at that and

00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:39.820
 be like, well, David was

00:38:39.820 --> 00:38:41.180
 following God, but he also,

00:38:41.300 --> 00:38:43.980
 you know, has several lives,

00:38:44.100 --> 00:38:45.559
 and God didn't really seem to

00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:46.760
 say much to him about it.

00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:49.080
 So, I mean, I know, like, in

00:38:49.080 --> 00:38:50.539
 my heart, the reason, but I

00:38:50.539 --> 00:38:51.700
 just wanted your thoughts about

00:38:51.700 --> 00:38:51.980
 that.

00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:53.380
 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:54.100 --> 00:38:55.580
 So, I think, broadly speaking,

00:38:56.220 --> 00:38:57.760
 we see all kinds of bad

00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:59.860
 results of polygamy in David's

00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:01.280
 life and in Abraham's life, and

00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:02.780
 there's rivalry and jealousy and

00:39:02.780 --> 00:39:04.700
 in Jacob's life, and, you know,

00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:07.019
 so I think the general sense we

00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:08.440
 get of polygamy is it has

00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:09.260
 negative effects.

00:39:11.260 --> 00:39:12.579
 Now, with polygamy, it's a

00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:14.300
 little challenging because, you

00:39:14.300 --> 00:39:15.260
 know, if you're married to two

00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:17.940
 wives, do you put away the

00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:18.500
 second wife?

00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:20.019
 Well, in some cultures, that

00:39:20.019 --> 00:39:23.139
 leaves her sort of all alone and

00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:23.840
 defenseless.

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:28.320
 So, that's a complicated issue.

00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:29.300
 And the other thing I'd broadly

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:33.059
 say is, you know, there's, when

00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:34.340
 Jesus was asked about marriage and

00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:35.680
 divorce, Jesus said, well, Moses

00:39:35.680 --> 00:39:36.820
 gave you this law because your

00:39:36.820 --> 00:39:37.480
 hearts were hard.

00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:39.539
 Like, there are a lot of things

00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.920
 that God sort of tolerated in the

00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:43.140
 Old Testament, which he was not

00:39:43.140 --> 00:39:45.059
 happy with, which were not good,

00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:46.539
 which did not have good effects.

00:39:46.539 --> 00:39:50.340
 And, but Jesus says, now I've

00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:53.000
 come, and now sort of my disciples

00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.099
 are called to a higher standard.

00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.019
 And so, we're going to go towards

00:39:57.019 --> 00:39:58.639
 what God actually wants for us.

00:39:58.699 --> 00:39:59.759
 And that's what you could say to

00:39:59.759 --> 00:40:01.199
 somebody who's saying, well, I'm

00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:02.920
 going to follow God in every other

00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:04.719
 area except for this, and David did

00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:06.460
 it, so, you know, I can do it too.

00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:08.759
 But, but when Jesus came, it's a

00:40:08.759 --> 00:40:10.860
 whole new productive world that

00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:11.699
 we're living in, right?

00:40:11.980 --> 00:40:13.820
 You know, if someone were to, if a

00:40:13.820 --> 00:40:15.519
 homosexual person were to say, I

00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.420
 think that I can love God, I mean,

00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:19.139
 David loved God, clearly, but he

00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:19.860
 was doing this.

00:40:19.900 --> 00:40:22.259
 I think I can engage in, you know,

00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:23.420
 a monogamous homosexual

00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:25.619
 relationship, but also really love

00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:26.099
 God.

00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:27.840
 David did it, you know, he was a

00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.179
 polygamist, so he wasn't necessarily

00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:31.860
 walking out what we're supposed to.

00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.559
 We can point to Jesus in those

00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:35.519
 situations, maybe.

00:40:36.099 --> 00:40:37.920
 Yeah, I think it's always dangerous

00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.119
 when a Christian says, I'm willing to

00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:41.619
 follow God except for this one thing

00:40:41.619 --> 00:40:43.400
 that I know God says no to, but I'm

00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:44.519
 going to embrace instead.

00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:45.199
 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:47.259
 Like, that is always, no matter what

00:40:47.259 --> 00:40:50.759
 that thing is, that is always a

00:40:50.759 --> 00:40:52.340
 dangerous place to be.

00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:53.179
 And we saw it in David's life,

00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:55.059
 obviously, he had a lot of negative

00:40:55.059 --> 00:40:56.460
 things happen to him.

00:40:57.300 --> 00:40:57.780
 Yeah.

00:40:57.860 --> 00:40:59.880
 When he, as, as, like you said, okay.

00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:01.219
 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:03.059
 Brita.

00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:04.619
 I don't know if this is a this week

00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:08.259
 question, or in two weeks, but sort of

00:41:08.259 --> 00:41:11.280
 addressing the, you know, the church

00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.220
 that professes faith in Christ and also

00:41:14.220 --> 00:41:18.019
 affirms committed gay relationships

00:41:18.019 --> 00:41:20.360
 and our posture towards other

00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:21.940
 believers or maybe towards other

00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:22.220
 churches?

00:41:23.380 --> 00:41:23.740
 Yes.

00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:25.660
 Is that this week, or do we hold on to that?

00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:27.160
 Yeah, no, that's a good question.

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:29.740
 We can take a stab at it now, and then

00:41:29.740 --> 00:41:30.960
 we can maybe come back to it later.

00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:32.920
 Um, so what should be our posture

00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:34.659
 towards Christians or churches who

00:41:34.659 --> 00:41:36.599
 affirm a lot of other biblical truths,

00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:39.139
 but, uh, also want to affirm gay

00:41:39.139 --> 00:41:39.679
 relationships?

00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:44.480
 Um, ah, that's complicated.

00:41:45.019 --> 00:41:45.460
 Okay.

00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:50.559
 Um, so I think there is a question.

00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:52.420
 So I, uh, I don't think it's something

00:41:52.420 --> 00:41:54.119
 that we can just say, ah, well, it's not

00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:54.559
 a big deal.

00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:59.380
 Um, I do think there is a, I do think

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:00.659
 there's a question of trajectory.

00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:02.739
 In other words, what direction are you

00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:03.420
 heading in?

00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:04.259
 Okay.

00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:11.940
 So, um, uh, I think for, for, so for

00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:15.860
 many, for, for many churches, uh, many

00:42:15.860 --> 00:42:18.579
 churches have started with trying to

00:42:18.579 --> 00:42:20.239
 argue that the Bible actually isn't

00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:22.559
 clear about this or actually permits

00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.960
 same-sex relationships or isn't talking

00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.980
 about, you know, sort of what modern

00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:27.960
 people experience.

00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.440
 Um, but that position doesn't tend to

00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:34.440
 hold very long because I think

00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:35.599
 scripture is pretty clear.

00:42:35.779 --> 00:42:37.659
 And so eventually people sort of default

00:42:37.659 --> 00:42:41.799
 to, well, Paul said no, but we don't

00:42:41.799 --> 00:42:42.500
 like Paul.

00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.860
 And, um, you know, we just have to take

00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:48.320
 the bigger message of the scripture,

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.079
 which is love.

00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:53.639
 And, uh, you know, God loves us and

00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:55.500
 that's all that's really important.

00:42:56.059 --> 00:42:57.599
 Now, if you say that, you've just sort

00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.900
 of like gotten rid of a lot of things in

00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:00.179
 scripture.

00:43:01.099 --> 00:43:05.739
 Um, and, uh, and then sort of, it tends

00:43:05.739 --> 00:43:08.619
 to go towards, you know, scripture is not

00:43:08.619 --> 00:43:10.619
 functionally authoritative in anything at

00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:10.920
 all.

00:43:11.779 --> 00:43:12.179
 Right.

00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:13.079
 And you can trace that.

00:43:13.179 --> 00:43:14.199
 I mean, you can, you can look at

00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:15.599
 denominations that in the sixties were

00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.739
 sort of debating this and in the, you

00:43:17.739 --> 00:43:19.459
 know, over the last 40 years or

00:43:19.459 --> 00:43:20.979
 somewhere have sort of switched on this

00:43:20.979 --> 00:43:23.619
 and then sort of, it, it, it has

00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:24.699
 broader ramifications.

00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.819
 Um, now I, I think there are sometimes

00:43:29.819 --> 00:43:30.439
 other people.

00:43:30.759 --> 00:43:31.159
 Okay.

00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:34.419
 So take, uh, you know, somebody who,

00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:36.179
 let's say somebody walks into church

00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:38.459
 today and has never been in here and

00:43:38.459 --> 00:43:40.899
 they immediately, they are convicted by

00:43:40.899 --> 00:43:41.979
 the Holy spirit, become a Christian.

00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:44.899
 And if you ask them, you know, what do

00:43:44.899 --> 00:43:46.179
 you think about same sex relationships?

00:43:46.179 --> 00:43:48.460
 Most people would probably say, sure,

00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:49.019
 that's fine.

00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.619
 Now the problem, that's a totally

00:43:52.619 --> 00:43:54.399
 different thing because this is somebody

00:43:54.399 --> 00:43:57.299
 who hasn't really is, is only beginning

00:43:57.299 --> 00:44:00.039
 to understand the Christian story and

00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:01.419
 is only beginning to understand all these

00:44:01.419 --> 00:44:02.619
 broader things that we've discussed the

00:44:02.619 --> 00:44:03.379
 last three weeks.

00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:05.879
 And then we'll have to think about how it

00:44:05.879 --> 00:44:07.039
 applies to this.

00:44:07.919 --> 00:44:12.079
 So that's a conversation and a process

00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:12.759
 is to engage in.

00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:20.639
 Um, and so I, I, I think that's maybe a

00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.400
 beginning of an answer, but there's a lot

00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.099
 more, we'll, we'll, we need to come back

00:44:24.099 --> 00:44:25.259
 to that because that's a bigger question.

00:44:25.259 --> 00:44:27.819
 Um, and I realize I probably haven't

00:44:27.819 --> 00:44:29.719
 answered all of it either.

00:44:30.139 --> 00:44:30.579
 Yeah.

00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:34.279
 Um, you said that in another Bible study,

00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:35.980
 it doesn't matter how we got there,

00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:37.380
 it's how we treat them now.

00:44:38.259 --> 00:44:42.860
 Now we have, uh, practicing homosexuals

00:44:42.860 --> 00:44:43.519
 in the church.

00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:45.860
 What is that reaction supposed to be?

00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:48.199
 We know that they're practicing.

00:44:48.699 --> 00:44:48.920
 Yeah.

00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.639
 Um, so I think the first question is,

00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.699
 is this person saying, I believe in Jesus

00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:56.159
 Christ.

00:44:56.319 --> 00:44:57.860
 I've surrendered my life to him.

00:44:57.860 --> 00:44:59.960
 I want to live my life completely for him.

00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:01.120
 Okay.

00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:04.940
 Um, there are some people who come to

00:45:04.940 --> 00:45:06.460
 church every week, but they're not there

00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:06.700
 yet.

00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:08.000
 Right.

00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.539
 So there's many people, you know, I mean,

00:45:11.740 --> 00:45:13.160
 there's many people who come to church

00:45:13.160 --> 00:45:15.140
 every week and when, you know, when the

00:45:15.140 --> 00:45:16.559
 communion's passed out, they don't take

00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:18.380
 communion because they, they know that

00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:19.280
 they're not there yet.

00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:20.780
 They haven't surrendered everything to

00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:21.079
 Christ.

00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:21.960
 Right.

00:45:22.660 --> 00:45:24.519
 Um, now if somebody says I've surrendered

00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:25.940
 everything to Christ and I want to

00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:27.700
 pursue this, um,

00:45:27.860 --> 00:45:33.000
 uh, I don't think that's ultimately sort

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:34.720
 of compatible together.

00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.800
 So I think there is a, um, uh, you

00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:41.280
 know, if somebody, somebody came to the

00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:43.340
 elders and said, I want to be baptized

00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:47.480
 and I'm in a, uh, a same sex, sexual

00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:50.000
 relationship, you know, the elders would

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:51.380
 have, we'd have, we'd, we'd want to have a

00:45:51.380 --> 00:45:53.800
 lot of conversations, but we would have to

00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:55.000
 say not now.

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:58.639
 Um, that, that is something, you know,

00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:01.139
 just as if somebody comes to the elders

00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:02.820
 and says, I'm cohabiting with my

00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:07.800
 girlfriend, um, of the opposite sex and I

00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:08.860
 want to become a member of the church.

00:46:09.019 --> 00:46:10.340
 We'd say, well, let's have a lot of

00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:12.300
 conversations together, but that's not

00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:15.039
 God's, uh, plan for his redeemed people.

00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:15.900
 Right.

00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:19.079
 And so we need to sort of work towards,

00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:22.300
 move towards, uh, a kind of change and

00:46:22.300 --> 00:46:23.680
 repentance that would be pleasing to God.

00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.760
 Um, Julie.

00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:31.080
 Um, I think when I'm looking at all these

00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:34.140
 cis lists, a lot of them, I can see how

00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:36.120
 greed or pride or rage or lying bitterness

00:46:36.120 --> 00:46:38.680
 like cause a lot of brokenness or, or like

00:46:38.680 --> 00:46:40.180
 death in relationships, but I guess like

00:46:40.180 --> 00:46:42.600
 when I look at a, um, like a monogamous

00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:43.920
 homosexual relationship in which they

00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:45.220
 commit not to have sex before marriage,

00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:46.640
 like all these things, like the only

00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:49.660
 difference is like, um, it's like people,

00:46:49.740 --> 00:46:50.640
 two people of the same gender.

00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:53.839
 Like I don't see as clearly how that,

00:46:53.839 --> 00:46:56.159
 uh, breeds death or destruction or

00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:56.420
 whatever.

00:46:56.799 --> 00:46:58.139
 So I'm wondering if you can say any

00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:58.679
 words to it.

00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:00.719
 And also, um, like if you can point to

00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:02.139
 any like resources, like I personally

00:47:02.139 --> 00:47:03.199
 don't have experience and I don't have

00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:04.460
 a lot of friends with that kind of

00:47:04.460 --> 00:47:06.359
 experience, but like when people ask

00:47:06.359 --> 00:47:07.579
 like, oh yeah, but like what's so bad?

00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:09.400
 I'm like, I really don't actually know

00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:11.159
 on this side of heaven, like what is the

00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:11.839
 consequences?

00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:12.960
 Like believe me, it has all these

00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:13.619
 negative consequences.

00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:15.019
 I like don't really know where to look

00:47:15.019 --> 00:47:15.839
 for that type of stuff.

00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:17.480
 Um, yeah.

00:47:18.619 --> 00:47:18.940
 Yeah.

00:47:18.940 --> 00:47:19.059
 Yeah.

00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:21.900
 Uh, that's a good question.

00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:23.679
 That's another question that I probably

00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:25.719
 have to wrap up in like a minute.

00:47:25.879 --> 00:47:27.900
 So, um, so I won't be able to give an

00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:29.199
 answer that does justice to that.

00:47:29.539 --> 00:47:32.819
 I think, um, so I think one of the

00:47:32.819 --> 00:47:35.599
 things, uh, that we sort of talked about

00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:37.519
 over the last couple of weeks is for a

00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.119
 Christian marriage is not supposed to be

00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:42.719
 primarily about two individuals finding

00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:46.500
 their happiness in each other, but, um,

00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:51.360
 being a picture of God and his people

00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:52.559
 being united together.

00:47:52.940 --> 00:47:53.440
 Right.

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:56.039
 And so male and female sort of two

00:47:56.039 --> 00:48:01.159
 different, uh, uh, uh, the two different

00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:03.639
 people in that respect with the differences

00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:05.719
 sort of physically inscribed upon their

00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:06.119
 bodies.

00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:06.619
 Right.

00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.860
 Um, being united together is a picture of,

00:48:09.860 --> 00:48:12.320
 uh, of God's salvation, right?

00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:13.360
 Of God's redemption.

00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:16.200
 Um, to men or to women is not a picture

00:48:16.200 --> 00:48:16.740
 of that.

00:48:16.740 --> 00:48:22.059
 It's sort of, uh, a, um, sort of holding

00:48:22.059 --> 00:48:23.820
 on to sameness, right?

00:48:23.860 --> 00:48:25.700
 Rather than sort of unity across that

00:48:25.700 --> 00:48:26.120
 difference.

00:48:26.680 --> 00:48:30.800
 Um, now, uh, that doesn't, I understand

00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:34.000
 that doesn't seem as obviously harmful as

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.300
 some of these other things.

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:40.460
 Um, there, there are other, you know, I,

00:48:40.560 --> 00:48:42.080
 there are other things that are worth

00:48:42.080 --> 00:48:43.440
 talking about that I just don't have, I

00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.680
 don't want to sort of broach and leave

00:48:45.680 --> 00:48:45.980
 hanging.

00:48:46.560 --> 00:48:49.660
 Um, so I, I will take note of that

00:48:49.660 --> 00:48:51.539
 question and we will come back to that in

00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:52.300
 the next week or two.

00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:53.160
 All right.

00:48:53.240 --> 00:48:56.240
 Let me pray for us and we'll have more

00:48:56.240 --> 00:48:56.500
 time.

00:48:56.580 --> 00:48:57.720
 We, you know, we've got a couple of

00:48:57.720 --> 00:48:59.560
 weeks, uh, so we can come back to these

00:48:59.560 --> 00:48:59.920
 things.

00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:00.720
 Uh, let's pray.

00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.680
 Um, uh, the other thing I would say is

00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.739
 you can read some of these books, read

00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:08.219
 some of these books of, uh, read Jackie,

00:49:08.339 --> 00:49:09.899
 Jackie Hill Perry's book is very good.

00:49:10.579 --> 00:49:14.399
 Um, and she talks about both some of

00:49:14.399 --> 00:49:17.319
 the things that initially drew her into a

00:49:17.319 --> 00:49:18.819
 lesbian relationship and seeking to find

00:49:18.819 --> 00:49:21.000
 fulfillment there, but also some ways

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.359
 that God sort of exposed some deeper

00:49:23.359 --> 00:49:25.419
 ways that that was unhealthy for her.

00:49:26.019 --> 00:49:27.940
 Um, so her book maybe is a good example

00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:29.859
 of, uh, addressing your question.

00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:32.000
 Uh, it's a beautiful book.

00:49:32.419 --> 00:49:33.639
 Uh, it's beautifully written.

00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:34.839
 Uh, generally.

00:49:35.059 --> 00:49:35.359
 All right.

00:49:35.759 --> 00:49:38.139
 Lord, uh, we pray that you would give us

00:49:38.139 --> 00:49:39.339
 your wisdom and love.

00:49:39.859 --> 00:49:42.179
 Uh, we pray, uh, that you would help us

00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:43.359
 to set our hearts on Christ.

00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.219
 Um, we pray that you would, uh, help us

00:49:46.219 --> 00:49:49.000
 to continue, um, learning together and,

00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.119
 and edifying each other, uh, for Jesus

00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:52.399
 sake.

00:49:52.779 --> 00:49:53.179
 Amen.