Well, good evening. My name's Elder Brown. I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Collington Road.
Well, actually, you'll be glad to know that's not the case. I'm just checking you're awake on a Sunday afternoon.
I'm Andrew Brown. I have the privilege to attend a Charlotte Chapel church plant, Christ Church Queensferry in Queensferry.
And I've been asked to come and share with you a little about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And I'd like to start out by admitting I'm not an expert in Mormon theology, but I do have a little experience in the area.
I once attended the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Edinburgh.
And after God opened my eyes to that false teaching, he gave me a real heart to reach out to those who would profess belief in Jesus,
but also deny what God has revealed about himself in the scripture.
So, before we dive into their beliefs, let's turn to God once more in prayer.
Lord, as we examine false teaching about who you are and what you've done, may it drive us ever closer to you.
God, help us to be like those Bereans in Acts 17, who were searching the scriptures daily to find out if what Paul taught them was true.
Lord, help us to accept that even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags before you, a perfectly holy God.
But despite our condition, we thank you that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Father, help us to have right motives when we engage those of a different faith.
Help us to view them like Jesus, a sheep without a shepherd, and have compassion on them.
God, drive out that desire to win arguments.
Help us to remember that there's a soul at stake.
Lord, give us energy and attentiveness this evening.
Help me accurately represent the beliefs and teachings of the LDS Church.
And I ask that our time together would bring you glory.
And that in coming days and years, there will be conversations that would lead to salvation.
In Jesus' name. Amen.
Amen.
Well, to put you at ease after telling you I was from the LDS Church, maybe I'll put your minds at rest by reading a Spurgeon quote.
This is what he said.
If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is.
Lay a straight one down beside it, and the work is well done.
Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence.
That kind of, I think, illustrates my attitude to dealing with those of a different faith.
You don't need to know exactly what they believe to share the truth with them.
That being said, I think sessions like this are useful.
Because if you know some of the preconceptions that are in their mind when you use certain terms,
it will help you share the truth with them.
You'll probably have bumped into young missionaries like the ones on the screen.
Though, maybe not recently because of COVID.
I've found how they're getting their message out as offering you free books of Mormon on social media.
But, if you did meet them, or bump into them in person,
they'll be wearing those little black badges, and they'll say,
Elder, or Sister, so and so.
The male missionaries are here for about two years,
and the female missionaries come for about 18 months.
So, why bother sharing the gospel with them?
Because if you chat to them, they'll say,
Of course, I'm a Christian just like you.
I believe in Jesus.
Jesus, I've accepted the gospel.
Well, I hope by the time we're finished this evening,
you'll have some idea why I believe they really need the gospel.
To set the scene with me,
imagine I come and tell you,
I really know Graham Shanks.
We agree, of course, he's the pastor of this church.
Absolutely.
No argument there.
No disagreement.
If I can be so bold,
I know I'm better than you do.
He's got fiery ginger hair.
He's seven foot tall.
Lives in Holyrood Palace.
And he even keeps a pet tiger.
Well, do I really know Graham?
I'm saying I know him.
We've both already agreed he's the pastor.
But does the way I'm describing to you show I really know him?
Or am I describing something that's based kind of in reality,
but let's face it, that's not Graham, is it?
So, I'd like to bring you to the words that Jesus said in John 8, 24.
He said this,
Unless you believe that I am,
you will die in your sin.
What we believe about Jesus really matters.
It's the difference between life and death.
These folks, they're putting their trust in Jesus.
A Jesus that I would argue does not exist.
And personally, that breaks my heart.
For me,
and don't get,
all of us need salvation.
But these people will go to eternity.
And I believe they will be the ones that may hear,
Lord, Lord,
did we not in your name do many marvelous works?
And they'll say,
I never knew.
Because they're not putting their trust
in the Jesus that is revealed in Scripture.
A Jesus that is invented in a human's mind
cannot save you.
Now, please don't mishear me when I say that.
It is not having a perfect theological understanding
of Jesus or who God is that will save you.
That's impossible with our human minds.
We're talking about an infinite God.
But if we're denying truth
that he has revealed to us,
how can we really be saying we're worshiping?
Jesus said also in John,
we must worship God in spirit and in truth.
As I understand it,
that's saying we must worship God
for who he has revealed himself to be.
We cannot, as I said earlier,
worship God and reject what he has revealed
about himself to us.
So where does that leave us here in Edinburgh?
There's lots of people who have lots of opinions
about who Jesus is.
You'll be hearing about some of them
as you go through your series.
We have Islam that teaches Jesus is only a prophet.
He's not the son of God.
He didn't die on a cross.
Likewise, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus isn't God.
Rather, they teach he's the Archangel Michael
in human form.
Which brings us to what the focus of our topic is tonight.
What is the LDS view of God?
There are many things we could discuss.
You'll see some of them on the slide just there.
We could talk about Joseph Smith's history.
We could talk about the polygamy in the church.
That might be quite interesting.
We could even talk about the odd underwear
they choose to wear.
Or the secret handshakes that they've nicked
from the Freemasons.
While all these might be very interesting topics,
and I'd enjoy chatting to you about them,
these are not the heart of the issue.
I believe the main focus of any evangelism encounter,
in fact, any gospel-centered conversation you have,
should have these two things involved.
Who is God?
And what is the gospel?
Due to our limited time,
I'll really only have time to unpack
the first of these questions.
But I'd like to give you a little flavor
of how they view the gospel.
I don't think I'm being unfair
if I describe what they believe
as works-based righteousness.
The Book of Mormon said God saves you
after all you can do.
And just a little plug for a YouTube site
I really like, Lutheran Satire,
you should check out their video
on the Mormon gospel.
I think you'll get a little laugh.
But ultimately, there is a really serious message there.
Salvation after all we can do
is no gospel at all.
Joseph Smith, when he translated Romans 4 or 5,
turned it totally on its head.
He said, God does not justify the ungodly.
We're doomed if that's the case.
We have no hope if that's the case.
But before we understand how we approach God,
we probably need to know who he is.
So what I'd like to focus on tonight is
what is the LDS view,
or the Latter-day Saint view, of God?
You'll see their own website on the screen behind me.
I'd just like to read it to you.
Latter-day Saints view members of the Godhead
in a manner that corresponds in a number of ways
with the views of others in the Christian world.
Both significant differences.
Latter-day Saints pray to God the Father
in the name of Jesus Christ.
They acknowledge the Father
as the ultimate object of their worship,
the Son as Lord and Redeemer,
and the Holy Spirit as the messenger
and revelator of the Father and the Son.
But where the Latter-day Saints differ
from other Christian religions
is in their belief that God and Jesus Christ
are glorified physical beings,
and that each member of the Godhead
is a separate being.
I've highlighted some words
from what I've just read,
because I want you to pay particular attention,
because probably quite a lot of you thought,
even me at first reading went,
fair enough,
nothing overly controversial there, right?
Sounds pretty legitimate.
But what I want you to notice is,
and I'll stop at this several times,
if you don't get,
if you don't define your terms,
you can find yourself agreeing to a lot
that you don't actually agree to.
So how would an LDS person define being here?
Well, quite straightforward, they mean God.
So the LDS view of the Godhead
is there are three separate gods,
all who have their own physical bodies,
who are part of the Godhead
because they work together.
So,
how does that differ from what we believe?
Forgive me for taking the time to clarify it,
but I think it is important.
Because rather than the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit
being all distinct persons,
but by one nature God,
they believe they're all separate gods.
I know I've probably dived in quite deep,
quite quickly.
So please,
allow me to conduct this little thought experiment,
and hopefully the slide behind us
will keep us where we need to be.
If you are up for it,
you can close your eyes,
that might help,
but that's your choice.
Imagine with me
if I threw a rock at your head.
I won't,
I promise,
don't even have a rock on me,
but imagine with me
for a moment if I did.
Smack.
Hits you in the side of the head.
Why does it hurt?
Well,
it has being,
it exists,
it's a rock,
it's hard,
it's harder than your head,
it's going to hurt.
It has being,
it exists.
Imagine with me,
instead of you complaining to me,
hey,
hold on a second,
why did you throw that rock at me?
Instead you turned to the rock
and went,
oh,
you nasty rock,
how dare you hit me
in the side of the head?
Will it care?
Not in the slightest,
because it's not a person.
So,
when we say we believe
that there is
one being of God,
but three persons,
we're talking about
two different categories.
We're talking about
what God is,
and then we're talking about
who God is.
We relate to God
as Father,
Son,
and Holy Spirit.
They're all
individual persons.
We can clearly see this
at Jesus' baptism.
There's the Father in heaven,
the Holy Spirit
descending like the dove,
Jesus in the water.
Three separate persons.
All one God.
One of my favorite passages
in scripture is
Philippians 2,
because it tells us
just how amazing Jesus is.
Though being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something he held onto.
But he emptied himself,
taken on the form of a servant,
and humbled himself
by becoming obedient unto death,
even death on a cross.
Jesus,
in very nature God.
We read from Isaiah.
There is only one.
From everlasting
to everlasting,
but we'll come on to that
more shortly.
One of the really interesting
things I find
when I've been chatting
to the Mormon missionaries
or the Latter-day Saints,
as they prefer now it is,
is that
when they talk about God,
they're actually
one of the most polytheistic
religions on the planet.
And that just means
they have an endless
number of gods.
To them,
God the Father
once
lived on a planet
as a man
and
had a God
who had a God
who had a God.
I'm guessing you get the idea.
They believe in what's called
the law
of eternal regression.
Gods
that have gods
that have gods.
you can probably see
why I'd argue
Islam is even closer
to Christianity
than Mormonism is.
They believe
that God the Father
has not always
been God.
I don't know
how you can read
the passage
that we looked at tonight
and think
that God
became God.
I'll give you
Joseph Smith's own words.
After the death
of one of the elders
in the early Mormon church
called Elder King Follett,
Joseph Smith
gave a speech
to
commemorate
the elder's life.
And I'd like to read you
some of the words.
Again,
you can follow along with me.
God himself
was once
as we are now
and is
an exalted man.
He sits enthroned
in yonder heavens.
That
is the great secret.
I'm going to tell you
how God
came to be God.
We have imagined
and supposed
that God was God
from all eternity.
I will refute
that idea
and take away
the veil
so that you may see.
He was once
a man like us.
Yeah,
that God himself,
the Father of us,
all
dwelt
on an earth.
It wasn't just
Joseph Smith.
The fifth president
of the Mormon church,
Lorenzo Snow,
he came up
with this little couplet
to summarize
their belief,
if you like.
As man
is now,
God once was.
As God is now,
man may become.
Incredible
if you're familiar
with
standard
Christian historic
teaching, right?
But that is
what they believe.
What do they believe
about Jesus?
Well,
they identify
Jesus
as Jehovah
of the Old Testament.
You might be
wondering,
hold on a second,
I thought you said
they didn't identify
God the Father
and Jesus
as the one God.
Well,
they don't.
They believe
that the name
Jehovah
exclusively refers
to Jesus
and they believe
the term
Elohim
or the Hebrew word
for God
refers to
God the Father.
This brings us
back to something
I mentioned earlier.
Anytime you're
talking to
someone from
the LDS church,
anytime they use
a term
or word,
pause for a second
and just say,
how do you
understand that?
What do you mean
when you say that?
You'll find it
really is
very,
very necessary.
Otherwise,
you could be
agreeing with them
for hours
and in the end
realize,
well,
you don't believe
the same thing
at all.
And probably
a really quite
easy example
of this is
the virgin birth.
We'll both go,
yeah,
of course we believe
in the virgin birth.
Mormons will go,
yeah,
believe in the virgin birth,
sure.
But,
the Mormon means
Mary was a virgin
because she had
intercourse with God
rather than with a man.
Not really what we
believe,
is it?
Brigham Young
put it this way,
the birth of the
saviour was as
natural as births
of our children.
It was the result
of a natural action.
He,
particularly flesh
and blood,
was begotten of
his father
as we were
of our fathers.
We could also agree
Jesus is the only
begotten son,
right?
That's a term
we're familiar with,
I would hope.
What does the LDS
person mean by that?
Well,
Mormons believe
we're all spirit
children,
they actually believe
we existed before
our physical birth,
and we're all
spirit children
of heavenly father
and mother.
Yeah,
you heard me
correctly.
They do believe
God the Father
has a wife,
at least one.
I'd like to read
you again
an LDS publication.
This is from
Messages of the
First Presidency.
Jesus,
however,
is the firstborn
among all the
sons of God,
the first begotten
in the spirit
and the only begotten
in the flesh.
He is our elder
brother,
and we,
like him,
are in the image
of God.
All men and women
are in the
similitude of the
universal father
and mother,
and are literally
sons and daughters
of deity.
What more is
needed to convince
us that both
man,
sorry,
that man,
both in spirit
and body,
is in the image
and likeness of God,
and that God
himself is in the
form of a man?
I hope by this
point you get
why I strongly
believe they need
the gospel.
They need to
hear the truth,
so how might
we share it
with them?
Well,
to be honest,
although I
started,
I asked one
of my favorite
passages to read
to the Mormon
missionaries to be
read at the start,
very,
very often,
if you do read
them a verse that
goes directly
against the
teachings of
their church,
they'll just say,
hold on a second
though,
we only believe
the Bible as
far as it's
been translated
correctly.
So,
how do we
get around
that?
Well,
hands up,
I don't speak
Hebrew or
Greek,
so I can't
really say if
something's been
translated correctly,
but thankfully,
we have
wonderful things
called interlinear
translations,
so they can be
helpful.
However,
they don't have
any concerns
about the
translation of
the Book of
Mormon.
So,
actually,
that's the
approach I use
when I'm
talking with
the Mormon
missionaries.
It's not
because I
believe the
Book of
Mormon is
true,
it's because
they do.
So,
we can ask
several questions
of the
Book of
Mormon.
You see,
the LDS
missionaries
are coming
to you,
and they're
asking you
to pray
about whether
their church
is true
based on
the Book
of Mormon,
and they're
asking you
to judge
whether Joseph
Smith is a
prophet based
on the
Book of
Mormon.
So,
we can ask
those questions.
For example,
what does the
Book of Mormon
teach about
God?
Who is
God?
I think that's
a fair question
to ask the
Mormon
missionaries.
I've already
read to you
what their
church teaches
about God.
But is that
what the
Book of Mormon
says?
Well,
I'd argue
no.
No,
it isn't.
I think the
Book of Mormon
is very clear.
There's only
one God,
and that
that God
is the
Father,
the Son,
and the
Holy Spirit.
I'd like to
read to you
from the
Book of Mormon,
and I hope
you won't
get your
pitchforks
and chase
me out.
This is
2 Nephi
31,
21.
And now
behold,
my beloved
brethren,
this is the
way,
and there
is none
other way,
nor name
given under
heaven,
whereby man
can be
saved in
the kingdom
of God.
And now
behold,
this is the
doctrine of
Christ,
and the
only and
true doctrine
of the
Father,
and of the
Son,
and of the
Holy Ghost,
which is
one God
without end.
Amen.
Confused
you?
That's not
what their
church teaches,
right?
Just in
case you
think it's
a one-off
verse that
slipped in
there from
somewhere.
I'd like to
read you
another one.
Alma 11,
44.
Now,
this
restoration
shall come
to all,
both old
and young,
both bond
and free,
both male
and female,
both the
wicked and
the righteous,
and even
there shall
not be so
much as a
hair of
their heads
be lost.
But everything
shall be
restored to
its perfect
frame,
as it is
now,
or in the
body,
and shall
be brought
and be
reassigned
before the
bar of
Christ,
the Son,
and God
the Father,
and the
Holy Spirit,
which is
one eternal
God,
to be
judged
according to
their works,
whether they
be good,
or whether
they be
evil.
I can't
reiterate
enough,
or you
must ask
them,
please explain
to me
what you
mean by
the terms
you use.
We could
also ask
them,
what sort
of being
is God?
I hope
I've already
shown that
their church
teaches that
God was once
a man
on their
planet,
but is
that what
the Book
of Mormon
says?
Forgive me
again for
turning there,
but Alma
18,
24-28.
And Ammon
began to
speak unto
them with
boldness,
and said
unto him,
Believest
thou that
there is
a God?
And he
answered,
and said
unto him,
I do
not know
what that
meaneth.
And Ammon
said,
Believest
thou there
is a
great
spirit?
And he
said,
Yea.
And Ammon
said,
This is
God.
And Ammon
said unto
him again,
Believest
thou that
this great
spirit,
who is
God,
created
all things
which are
in heaven
and in
the earth?
And just
a few
chapters
later,
and the
king said,
God is
that great
spirit that
brought our
fathers out
of the land
of Jerusalem.
Sorry.
Is God
that great
spirit that
brought our
fathers out
of the land
of Jerusalem?
And Aaron
said unto
him,
Yea,
he is that
great spirit,
and he
created all
things both
in heaven
and in
earth.
Believest
thou this?
And he
said,
Yea,
I believe
that the
great spirit
created all
things,
and I
desire that
you should
tell me
concerning
all these
things,
and I
will
believe
thy
words.
Just go
into the
LDS
website,
you'll find
clearly under
the definition
of God
the Father,
he has a
body of
flesh and
bones as
tangible as
man's.
Bizarre.
But it is
what they
believe.
There are
many,
many
articulate
Mormons who
will give
you explanations
for these
things.
But what
if we just
ask the
Book of
Mormon,
was God
once a
man on
another
planet?
Again,
the
Book of
Mormon
says no.
The
first
verse I'd
like to
read you
is a
direct
quotation
of
Malachi
3.6
For I
am the
Lord,
I
change
not,
therefore
the
sons of
Jacob
are not
consumed.
Or how
about this,
which is
a combination
of two
verses,
you're
probably
familiar
with,
Hebrews
13.8
and
James
1.17
For do
we not
read that
God is
the same
yesterday,
today,
and forever?
And in
him there
is no
variableness,
neither
shadow of
changing.
God is
God.
And what I
particularly
like,
given that
they believe
that God
was once
a man
on their
planet,
Moroni
8.18
For I
know that
God is
not a
partial
God,
neither a
changeable
being,
but he
is unchangeable
from all
eternity to
all
eternity.
And just
to remind
you of
what the
church
teaches,
this is
Brigham Young,
who was
one of the
followers of
Joseph Smith,
and his
writings said
this,
The doctrine
that God
was once a
man and
has progressed
to become a
God is
unique to
this church.
How do
you feel
knowing that
God,
through his
own
experience,
knows all
that we
know regarding
the toils
and sufferings
of mortality?
So much
contradiction.
So much
confusion.
Why?
Well, I
don't think
I'm being
unfair to
them to
say that
the current
prophet of
the LDS
church can
reinterpret
scripture to
their own
view.
They can
add to
revolution.
They can
change
revolution.
They even
have a little
phrase that
says,
a live
prophet
trumps a
dead one.
So forget
about the
one said
before,
if it
doesn't
agree with
what the
current
one believes.
In fact,
sometimes
the prophet's
own views
change with
time.
I would
strongly argue
that this
was the
case with
Joseph Smith.
It's why
we can have
such seemingly
clear Trinitarian
statements in
the Book of
Mormon, but
yet later in
his life when
he's talking
at the funeral
of Elder
King Follett,
he's telling
you God
was once
a man
on the
planet.
In
conclusion,
I'd like
to re-emphasize
what I
mentioned
earlier.
What I've
given you
tonight is
hopefully just
a starting
point to
delving into
what does
the Bible
really teach
about God?
Because like
I started
off with
that Spurgeon
quote,
you need
to know
the truth
so you
can lay
it beside
false
teachings.
You don't
have to
memorize any
of the
verses I've
mentioned
to start
a conversation.
But please,
please,
if you're
starting
conversations
with folks
of other
faith,
let your
elders know.
The reality
is we are
in a
spiritual
battle.
Our warfare
is not
against flesh
and bone.
I believe
there's
demonic
forces behind
the teachings
of the LDS
church and
many of the
other groups
you will come
to hear about.
It's a serious
issue.
It shouldn't
be taken
lightly.
It shouldn't
just be engaged
in because
you want to
win an
argument.
These are
people's souls
that are at
stake.
It's not
to be taken
lightly.
Please,
please involve
your elders
if you're
meeting with
missionaries,
Jehovah's
witnesses,
anyone of
a different
faith.
Once again,
when you
talk to
them,
ask them
what they
believe.
Give them
time.
One of the
most fruitful
conversations I
had with
LDS
missionaries
was over
pizza.
Sit with
them.
Get to
know them.
If it may
be so,
be like
Jesus.
Eat with
the tax
collectors
and sinners
of which,
believe it or
not,
you're one.
I am a
sinner.
Bond with
them.
Be a
friend.
You never
know where
it might
lead.
I pray it
leads to
their
salvation.
As I
mentioned,
only faith
in the
true Jesus,
the living
Jesus,
the one who
took on
flesh,
came to
this earth,
is the
resurrected
one.
He's the
only one
who can
save you.
We need
to be putting
our faith
and our
trust in
him.
Amen.
He's the
only one
that can
save us
from our
sin.
Before I
leave you
tonight,
I have a
few books
I'd like
to recommend.
Two of the
ones that I
find most
helpful myself
are written
by a
Baptist
preacher in
the States
by the
name of
James White.
He's written
letters to a
Mormon elder
and also
Is the
Mormon
my brother?
If you're
going to
get any
book on
their faith,
that would
be the one
I'd recommend.
Another one
that I find
very useful
is questions
to ask
your Mormon
friend.
This is
really just
to get
them to
critically
analyze
what they
do
believe.
Bizarrely,
I'd recommend
this.
It's the
Book of
Mormon.
I will
leave this
copy here.
You'll
notice it's
got a lot
of little
colored tags.
This is
literally
because I've
done a lot
of asking
the Book of
Mormon what
it teaches.
I shared
some topics
with you
tonight.
Well, I
shared two.
So I'll
leave this.
I hope you
find it a
useful resource
for the
church.
Because what
this teaches
is not
what the
Mormon
missions will
be teaching
you.
It's what
they're asking
you to pray
about, but
it's not
what they
believe.
So it
could just
be a door,
a foot in
the door,
to sharing
the gospel.
But I'd
like to
close with
that quote
that I
read at
the start.
If a
crooked stick
is before
you, you
need not
explain how
crooked it
is.
Lay a
straight one
down beside
it, and
the work
is well
done.
Preach
the truth,
and error
will stand
abashed in
its presence.
Amen.