Musical vocabulary

[0:00] In mitigation, I would say it was quite polished this morning, wasn't it?! The visuals did work with the exception of the arrowheads.! They worked very well.

[0:11] So the fact that it's very clunky this evening is slightly mitigated by that. OK, we've been looking. These are all the notes of what we've been looking at.

[0:25] And just run those past you at a speed that you can't quite read. And so what I would like us to do this evening is to answer together some questions.

[0:41] So one of them is, what have we learned? Might be quite a quick meeting this evening. And then I want to say something about musical styles.

[0:54] And then these questions. What have we learned? What have we learned tell us about the value of the assembly? What should we expect of musicians?

[1:09] And what should we look for in music? So I think we can say some sensible and helpful things about those. It's going to be difficult again, isn't it?

[1:27] It's going to not do what I want it to do. That's better. Right. Let's pray. Lord, we ask again that you will help us to think, to be wise, to be understanding, to be spirit filled, according to your word.

[1:48] And so help us in our thinking this evening. We might not just be marking time or wasting time, but redeeming the time.

[2:01] So help us just now. We ask it in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. So those were the things that we looked at.

[2:12] I did them so quickly that you couldn't quite read them, but you might remember them. Because what I was going to ask you to do is to find a couple of neighbors. Don't have to move too far, but just a couple of people.

[2:23] And ask those who have been here for the other sessions, have you learned anything? And anything that you learned, have you retained it?

[2:34] I was a school teacher for 14 years, and I know perfectly well that people can learn things at the time. When you ask them the next week, what did you learn? They've got no idea at all. So we may well be back to that.

[2:45] So would you like to just find somebody nearby, perhaps a couple of people? And if they weren't there, you could perhaps explain to them what we've been talking about.

[2:57] And so you need to find somebody who knows something. So just for five minutes, would you be prepared to do that? What have you learned? Anything that you learned in the past few weeks?

[3:16] So let's stop for a moment there, shall we? Okay, you're allowed to say pass if you haven't got anything that you're confident to share with us.

[3:38] So I'd be interested to know what has struck us. I was just overhearing Chris explaining to Ben what we've been saying a thousand times better than what I actually said.

[3:51] So that was really good. So let's see if anybody else can match that. So anything that you've learned or has struck you on this?

[4:03] Sophia, any over there? Katie? Maria? We've got the microphone. Yeah, the microphone's there. No, no, no.

[4:15] Katia said that we worship through the whole of life, through the whole of our lives. Thank you. So true. I think that's a very important thing, is the whole of our lives.

[4:30] So that is both encouraging and intimidating, isn't it?

[4:42] So everything we do can be worshipped. So nothing is pointless, useless, rubbish. Everything we do we can offer to God as worship.

[4:54] Well, we also said worship within the subset of worship, which is when we meet together in the assembly, needs to be intelligible and edifying.

[5:12] Thank you. Thank you. So there's lots of worshipping activities, including, and Paul gives the example of speaking in tongues, of a communication which is just between me and the Lord.

[5:27] But he says that in the assembly, the things that we do in the assembly, the worshipping things that we do in the assembly, is not every worshipping activity, but those activities that are intelligible.

[5:42] What was the other thing you said? Edifying. Edifying. Edifying. Edifying. To other believers. Yeah. No. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[5:57] Thank you very much. Do you want to pass the microphone on? Anything? In this direction? In Ben's direction? Oh, Katie, Ben's direction?

[6:08] Yes. In this direction. So anything that struck you that… We were talking about the kind of role of emotions in worship.

[6:24] And the example that you'd given, was it the Queen video, We Are the Champions? Yes. How you were very emotionally moved by that. Yes. But how that wasn't, it wasn't a goth thing.

[6:35] Yes. And… Okay, so if I put to singing, it's meant to involve the emotions. That's what it's there for.

[6:47] But the emotions are meant to be a response to the meaning, the words, rather than just the music.

[7:02] Yes. The other thing connected to that, which I recall from last week, was when you were talking about the biblical conception of the heart. And you talked about in the world, we tend to kind of dislocate the mind from the heart.

[7:16] So, you know, you've got sayings like, you know, go with your heart, not your mind. But you were saying the whole kind of biblical view of the heart is the kind of whole inner man, the kind of the seat of the will, the thinking, the mind, the feelings.

[7:31] So it's far more comprehensive. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. All the inner thing. Yes. So, make melody in your hearts to the Lord.

[7:44] It isn't just a saying, be emotional. It's saying, use the whole of your inner capacities and offer that to the Lord. Thank you very much. Okay, anybody like to volunteer anything?

[7:59] I'm not going to insist that everybody says something. Something that I've known from my own past is that if you're in a big crowd and the worship team perform and they take you with you, they take you with them.

[8:25] And it becomes almost like a concert rather than actually a worship to the Lord. Yeah, it's an interesting thing to try and tease out what the difference is.

[8:41] whether we're getting to the point that the emotional response is not actually to the words, but to the fact there's a lot of people and that the music is very engaging.

[8:58] It can be bad. Thank you. I wanted to say something about the vote of the state of the government.

[9:09] Okay. So, anybody else and then we'll move on.

[9:21] Has Hannah got something or Rosemary? Yeah. When we thought that the music should be appropriate to the words and that the words should be the main thing.

[9:32] Yes. The music should enhance the words. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So, the music enhances the words. Something like that.

[9:44] And Hannah. Do you want to be the last one, Hannah, on this particular thing? Yeah. I just like the difference that was drawn out from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

[9:57] In the Old Testament, worship involved sacrificing. And not just sacrificing, but it had particular ways. There was a lot of rules involved and only some things were acceptable to God.

[10:09] But now, after Christ, it says, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable. So, again, reiterating what you're saying. It's everything and primarily our bodies.

[10:21] And that's possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Thank you very much indeed. That was a very important point as we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

[10:32] There's a lot about worship. What about the temple stuff? Which we now read through Christ because all the sacrifices have been fulfilled in him.

[10:43] And hence, we get the offer your bodies as living sacrifices. And whatever it says, praising, doing good, showing hospitality with such sacrifices, God is well pleased.

[10:55] So, it broadens out to everything. Thank you very much. Well done. That's good. You remembered more than I did. Thank you. Okay, let's say a little bit about different musical styles.

[11:10] So, I am leaning a lot of the thinking on this saying by Francis Schaeffer. But I think rightly, I think it's a helpful saying. So, he said in a rather, in the recording that I heard, rather high-pitched American accent, the artistic form enhances the didactic statement.

[11:29] Meaning that the music or, he was actually talking about visual art, serves a statement that is being made. And particularly in music.

[11:40] So, we have words and the music is supposed to enhance that and develop that and express that. And I thought I would do a little bit about what that involves.

[11:52] I don't know, Steve, can you play those two clips that I had? And you'll like these, if we can get them. Some of you might understand these.

[12:08] Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these. Some of you might understand these.

[12:20] This is a little congregation in the tea plantation in Sri Lanka and their Sunday worship.

[12:54] Okay, let's finish that one. It's quite different, isn't it? Anybody speak enough Tamil to understand what was being said?

[13:04] Because I didn't understand it. No. Can you do the second one? This was at a more cultured, if I've got these the right way around, a more cultured congregation in Manar. And you might hear me humming over the top of this one because I recorded it off my phone.

[13:18] That's the same one. Okay, that was the end of it apparently.

[13:49] Okay, thank you very much. So it just shows, I think, how culturally bound our idea of music is. What do we mean by music?

[14:00] So one thing is rhythm. So on the first one, on the second one you could hear the rhythm because they had a drum, didn't they? Da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

[14:11] They've got a way of doing it. So they do two beats together like this. Can you do that last one again? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you.

[14:35] So rhythm. What are the other elements of music that we would say something is music as opposed to speech? Melody.

[14:46] Okay, can you play that first? The first one. Because I struggle to find a melody in this. Not that one. The other one, if you could. Thank you.

[15:16] So my theory, please pardon this. It's not meant to be offensive. But my theory is that they, in this sort of singing, these are Tamil people in not a particularly cultured area, they know when they're all going to go up, and they know when they're all going to go down, and all going to like that.

[15:37] But they all start on different notes. And they all go up and down together like this. And it doesn't really bother them that they were starting on different notes. I'm intensely bothered by that.

[15:47] I think you all start on the same note, and finish on the same note. But they're not bothered by that. They all just go up and down together. So for me, as the sort of, who has intuitively picked up Western music, I think that's not very good.

[16:03] But who am I to say that? That's what they do. And so there's melody. Other elements in music? Rhythm, melody?

[16:16] Yeah, there's a structure, sort of verse and chorus, something like that. Yeah. Dynamics is getting louder and quieter.

[16:27] Meaning? Meaning. Yeah, when it's singing, there's meaning. Yes, when there's a singing, there's a meaning. I'm sorry?

[16:40] Oh, yes, I have. Yeah. Dynamics. That's an N. Anything else?

[16:54] Accompaniment? Yeah. Well, what I was going to say is harmony. Okay. I'll put that with rhythm.

[17:08] Feel and groove. Yeah. Yeah.

[17:23] Well, what I was thinking about was the vocabulary of music. Because clearly, those dear people were doing all the things that they should do in the Bible.

[17:34] But the vocabulary they were using, the musical vocabulary is completely unfamiliar to us, isn't it? We, well, at least I say for myself, I struggled to identify a melody.

[17:46] With the second one, I could identify the rhythm because it had that, like that. I have no idea about the structure. There wasn't a huge amount of dynamics.

[17:59] And the harmony was completely missing. There's no Western harmony. So Western music has got a system which we all have in our heads. Nobody's ever taught it to us.

[18:10] But we have to realize it's not the only system there is. Our system is just our system. And we take one note here. And we go up until the note has doubled.

[18:24] And we put 12 steps in between. Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. 12. And that's what our Western scale is.

[18:37] But you could, presumably, you could do it any way you wanted. You take the same note and double it. You could put four steps in between. Or five steps in between. But we, our vocabulary is that we use, we use 12 steps.

[18:59] Allow me to demonstrate. So if I want to go from this note to this note. So I could do 12.

[19:19] That's 12 steps. Or I could divide it up to do it in eight steps. So that would recognize that as a scale.

[19:31] So if you use those notes, you get a certain sort of sound of, which is what we sing. So that was using those eight notes. However, if you used, can you play a pentatonic scale on yours?

[19:48] Or on mine? Or on mine? Yeah, you know, do a bluesy scale. C.

[19:58] Okay, so he's used, he's gone between that note and that note, but used a different way of dividing it.

[20:18] And it sounds quite different, doesn't it? Can you do, if I do, can you do, don't improvise over the top of it. I'm going to change to F.

[20:33] So that, see, if you sang a hymn to that, you'd find it really difficult, wouldn't you?

[20:57] Because it uses notes that we don't associate with hymns, or indeed any sort of Christian music.

[21:08] It's a different, so we used a different scale. So what was I trying to say here? I was trying to say that we use a particular vocabulary of rhythm and melody and structure and dynamics and harmony.

[21:22] And many of the songs that were written in the past were very low on rhythm and very strong on harmony.

[21:33] So the old hymns, their vocabulary of the expression would be, we've got the ladies that can sing the top part and some other ladies that have got slightly lower voices that will sing the middle part and we've got some gentlemen that can sing really high and some gentlemen that can sing really low.

[21:51] And they have, so that's four, and the hymns are written in four-part harmony so everybody can take a line and that's what gives it the oomph. That's what gives the expression because you've got all those voices each with their own harmony.

[22:10] And the hymns in our hymn book, many of them were written with that in mind. And that's why the very high notes, the gentlemen, I'm particularly conscious of this because I can only get about as high as a middle C, can't sing the melody because it was not written for gentlemen to sing.

[22:33] The gentlemen are meant to sing the low notes and the ladies are meant to sing the high notes. And that's why we have to, every Sunday, Adam and I have a little conflab, can we sing this, is it singable, it ought to come down a little bit, etc.

[22:48] So what I'm saying is the vocabulary of the traditional songs is low on rhythm but strong on harmony. But we can't do that. So we have to compensate for it some way, usually just depending on the piano to do the harmony for us.

[23:06] However, in the vocabulary of the music that is around us at the moment is fairly low on harmony and fairly strong on rhythm.

[23:21] That's what the vocabulary of modern music is. So, can I give an example of that? I think I can't. Can you think of an example of something that's strong on rhythm but fairly minimal on harmony?

[23:36] Anybody? Is it? Yes, it is actually, isn't it?

[23:50] Yeah, so, that was We Will Rock You by Queen. I hesitate to mention Queen again after having done that last time. but that's the children.

[24:01] Dum, dum, chh, dum, dum, chh, dum, dum, chh. We will, we will rock you, rock you. So that's, it's, yeah.

[24:17] There's, I got keys that in. I can never get the key for this. Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, No, wrong key.

[24:34] How does it start? If I did it in G, be your name in the land that is plentiful.

[24:55] Too low. Yeah. Okay. Let's not worry too much about it. But this is the thing about choosing music nowadays.

[25:09] That we... Yeah. The vocabulary has changed. We are not... We don't have the musical education to sing in harmony like many of those songs were written for.

[25:25] And our instinct is that the way to express things is with rhythm. And I think just as we don't try and sing things as if we were Tamil people, because we can't do that.

[25:39] It doesn't make any sense to us. I think also we should be sensitive to singing things in a way which expresses in a vocabulary that people nowadays understand.

[25:50] Does that make sense? And I think that is my... That is my... As far as I would go on the thing of do we use old music or new music? I don't think that's a particularly helpful way of trying to work it out.

[26:04] But I think what we need to do is to be sensitive to the fact that nowadays we are not educated to express music using harmony so much as rhythm.

[26:16] And that's why rhythm is the thing that attracts people. Does that make sense? Is that fair enough?

[26:26] So, yeah, just something to be aware of. Yeah, okay, stop. Here's three other questions that we could spend ten minutes looking at.

[26:40] So what we've thought about, what does this tell us about the value of the assembly? Because I think if you ponder that for a moment, you will realize that this is saying something quite special about what we do when we assemble together.

[26:59] Here's another question. What should we expect of accompanying musicians, if there are any? What should we expect of them? For example, I am reliably informed that Dr. Keller's congregation in New York, is it New York?

[27:18] Yeah. They pay professional musicians to come and play because of the excellence of the performance they can give or the accompaniment they can give.

[27:28] Is that what we would expect of accompanying musicians? What would you expect of them? And then here's another question. What would we look for in music that accompanies the singing?

[27:40] What would you say? I mean, we could just do a very basic, doesn't have to, I'm not talking about what are your personal preferences. I'm thinking what, in terms of principles, is desirable for the music that accompanies the singing in the assembly?

[27:57] Okay. So if I can trespass on your patience, can we discuss these for five minutes? Yes. It depends what you're going to say.

[28:09] Is it going to be helpful? Yeah. I think the second one and the third one are somewhat connected.

[28:24] And I think for the third one, one of the things we should look for and hope for in accompanying music is that it helps us as we sing, enhances the fact that we can think about the meaning as we're singing and the expression of the meaning.

[28:51] Okay. And I think that's what we should expect of our accompanying musicians, is that they... All right, hold on. I've got to stop you because what I'd like, if I may, I'd like us to look at this in little groups.

[29:05] Can we do that? And then we'll come back together, because you're going to say something really helpful and it will stop other people thinking about it in a little group. Can we do that? Would you mind, Brenda? Okay. So what I would say is, if you've got a group on this side, would you like to think about question one first and then any of the other questions?

[29:23] People in the middle, would you like... You can think about all of them, but if you at least think about question two, and the people over there, you can think about all of them, but at least think about question three.

[29:34] So we'll have somebody, we'll have something to say about each of those. Okay, is that right? One. So at least think about one, at least think about two, at least think about three. Yeah?

[29:45] Five minutes with three other people, perhaps. Thank you for your patience in talking about this.

[30:04] So let's see if we can share any useful thoughts on these three questions. So where's the microphone at the moment? Okay. So did anybody over here think about the value of the assembly?

[30:21] What happens when we assemble together? Yes. Okay. You switched on at the... Yes. Okay. Anything to share with us on that?

[30:33] That's quite loud. Read that one. We thought that interestingly, the same vocabulary that is used for music can be used for the way we interact.

[30:48] For example, if music is poor, if people, if frequencies aren't communicating well, if there are two frequencies that aren't well matched, it can be pretty awful.

[31:10] We think that, you know, coming together and when people are in harmony, you know, it works. And we're making sense. Yeah.

[31:21] So I'm just going to write down harmony because that's one of the things it talks about. Yeah. Harmony. Working together. Yeah. And structure. Yeah.

[31:33] As well. So there's a sort of beauty about the assembly which is like the beauty of music. Harmony, structure. Yeah. Yeah. So there's value in that because when people are gelling, when people are aimed at the same goal, if we're all focused the right way on Jesus Christ, then there will be, I believe there will be that harmony.

[31:59] Jesus promised us peace. And there will be that harmony and there will be from that a beautiful melody. Excellent. Yeah.

[32:09] Yeah. So the idea of variety, unity, unity and diversity is a very churchy thing and that's there in music as well.

[32:21] So different parts but all focusing together. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes, Steve. On there. Just to look at that from the other side really and one thing we said was that when we sing in the assembly, we sing in the spirit.

[32:41] That's what Ephesians tells us to do. So in a sense that's saying the same thing as Aaron was saying but theologically speaking, we are singing in the spirit.

[32:54] Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I'm going to ask Chris to say something on this because I know what he's thought about. No, look at Maria first and then Chris.

[33:05] Okay. Well, we were talking about particularly that before anything is done in terms of the musicians, we should try and they ought to be praying together.

[33:22] Hold on. Wait a minute. We're still on to question one. The assembly. Oh, sorry. Okay. Okay. Right. So Chris, have you got any thoughts on this? I'm thinking if it says when we come together to edify one another, is that saying that there's something that happens when we're together that doesn't happen in any other location?

[33:44] Because I can't think of another location where the vibe of what is happening is I am edifying other people.

[33:55] They are edifying me and we're doing this in the presence of God. I think that makes it a rather special thing but I don't know whether you have any thoughts on that. Well, I think it's interesting in the assembly that we are giving way to each other as well as offering ourselves to the Lord and as music is such a touchy subject then the issue of forbearance is a very prime thing and I think it's quite a sanctifying process for us as an assembly to be singing a range of things some of which we're not very happy with maybe or even we're conscious that some others may not be very comfortable with but there is something there which is a blessing to somebody and because of that by being forbearing we're not just gritting our teeth but we're also doing something rather wonderful which is giving space and opportunity for others in the process which is actually a Christian act of humility.

[35:13] Thank you. Yes, because when it talked about the spirit-filled church it talked about singing and it says submitting to one another so the spirit-filled community is doing all of those things not just the one but all of that.

[35:26] Yes, thank you very much. I mean it does strike me that there is a topic here of when we're together and we are functioning as the assembly of God which is what we are the church of Jesus Christ there is something going on that you can't find anywhere else including in your own personal devotions at home I'm not saying don't have personal devotions at home but I'm saying that there is something that happens here that is special that you can't get by your own personal devotions you miss out if you're not in the place where we're edifying one another I think that's I think there's probably more to be said on that but at least say that point there okay let's come to question two accompanying musicians so should we be setting aside a budget for hiring opera singers and etc so did the people in the middle have any thoughts about the accompanying musicians

[36:36] I don't want to repeat but we're just basically talking about the question of is it better to have poor Christian musicians who don't really do the job well or excellent non-Christian musicians now I'm not saying we're ever going to be in that position but is it if they're poor yet still Christian but no one can really everyone's distracted and not really able to sing well is that is that a problem or so you're asking it as a question sort of well we just brought it up as a question basically yes yes we also discussed the fact that the what we would hope from our accompanying musicians would be that they would be able to accompany and support us in a way which better helped us to think about the meaning of the words and express that as we sang and the fact that actually

[37:44] I think actually I think we did all think that that pace is fairly important here if the if the pace is too fast that's obviously a problem you know because you just you can't think about the meaning you don't have time to think about it before you're on to the next sort of bit of the song but also if the pace is too slow you lose the thread of the meaning and that's just as important and in practice happens more frequently particularly if you have weaker musicians who actually can't play the tune or play the accompaniment fast enough for us to express you know to actually express the meaning and and I think in lots of ways setting the pace for the accompanying musicians is a very difficult thing it's very hard to get right okay thank you very much we didn't come to any conclusions about the sort of

[39:07] Christian non-Christian really we discussed it yeah okay I'll tell you where I am on that I think that the function of the musicians is to help the singing so if they don't help the singing we don't have them as long as we start on the same note and go at the same speed I mean in the New Testament they didn't there's no particular mention of accompanying musicians they probably just sung unaccompanied it's perfectly possible to do that as long as we do start on the right note so I would be I think if the only option is poor musicians that hinder we'd be better off without them I think we are in the realm of spiritual gifts here that there is a giftedness about accompanying I think just being a professional isn't the same thing as being a good accompanist of a song I think that this is where I fall down reading the music and following the words so that when the words demand or they could do with slowing down a bit or louder or softer

[40:24] I think that's very important and I would suggest that a non-Christian person would not be as sensitive to that as a Christian person would so I personally would be quite keen on the musicians being converted people who have a gift for music and then you're going to say well what about the children because the children could shake things and rattle things and once they grow up they could join in and I know in a lot of churches they would say if you can play the violin then come along and play and I would say let's cross that bridge when we get to it but I think I would like the accompanying musicians to have prayed before they accompany personally I would like them to have to have to have practiced and prayed and I would like them to have some spiritual qualities of humility so that they don't just protrude themselves into the music look at me look at what I'm playing because that's what musicians like to do isn't it they like to say look at me look how good I am so I think

[41:45] I think there are spiritual qualities that we should expect of accompanying musicians personally so that's my take on that what should we look for in accompanying music oh sorry does anybody else want to come in on the accompanying musicians yes Maria can we have a microphone over here please anybody got a microphone yeah I agree with Brenda in the fact that in what you were saying about pace but I also think that pace is a matter of personal preference and how how you said that the music has to be accompany the words and enhance the words help us to enhance the meaning but I think it's partly to do with how each person is able to understand the words and the music and whether they can do that quickly enough if you have the music going too fast what you tend to find is that you've sung a song and you found that actually the music has the song is finished and you haven't really engaged with the words at all yeah yeah okay

[43:36] I think yeah okay I'm going to cut this short we want to can I just say the other thing about being able to praise through the singing because what what I've found is that if the music goes too fast then there is a sense that we're actually getting through the music as quickly as we can in order to get to the meaty bit which is the sermon but then of course we shouldn't be doing that because we need to get we need to engage with the words of the songs as well right okay but one more just one more point in terms of the musicians

[44:36] I think one of the big things is for them to give us a strong lead as to the rhythm and the pace as Brenda was saying so that we're not all going at different speeds which has sometimes happened because we don't have quite as much confidence in the musicians and whether they're going to play those songs either sensitively or at a pace that is a good pace so we want the goldilocks place which is not too slow and not too fast but I think it is important that whether the goldilocks is a little bit one side or the other we all do it together I think that is important and the general consensus is that the person who leads the music so pianist or guitarist if they set the pace okay we follow them and we all do it together

[45:37] I think that would be the sort of ground rule for it yeah I think it's important I think it's important I think it's important I think it's important that the worship leader is a believer I really think that's what I would I would be with you on that yes yeah yes I I wouldn't I would be very uncomfortable if we had somebody leading us accompanying us and you were to say to them well I know this person is living with somebody else's wife what can you expect they're not a believer and I wouldn't like us to be in assembly where that was you know no matter how excellent the musician anyway that's where I would go on that let's go to the third one what should we look for in the accompanying music so choice of music any thoughts on that did you think about that over there yeah some of it's been said in terms of the pace yeah the if you've got a sober hymn or song then you don't want to dance kind of tune most tunes are actually set to hymns which are very suitable one of the things

[47:13] I think we probably experienced today actually was this morning with that how silently how silently and it was very noticeable this morning how Adam quietened the music the music when he played that I thought that was very effective I think that probably is something that we need to bear in mind and also you've got some songs which are shout to the Lord and literally we do we play it loudly and I think that's quite important thank you very much time's getting on anybody want to add anything to the accompanying music I think there are a number of things that are fairly obvious that it should be singable so some tunes are brilliant to listen to on YouTube listen to them while you're doing the washing up at home can be very helpful but they're not necessarily singable by a congregation so I think the one that's just on the borderline is there is a day heard all creations waiting for a day of freedom the rhythms are so irregular we do sing it but it took us ever such a long time to get the hang of that it needs to be singable and the key needs to be singable for most of us personally

[48:31] I like it for all of us but it's a key singable for most of us I think that will do let's stop and sing something and then we'll go home shall we sing number 298 yes yes yes yes for the foreseeable future.

[49:00] And can you make some comment? I mean, you think they were written to be sung in four-part harmony, but I'm thinking, well, did Victorian congregations actually do that?

[49:10] And secondly, is there any reason why we couldn't actually, some people couldn't actually be helpful in that way? Because we do already, Ruth helps us in that.

[49:23] And as you say, it helps, enhances. Yes. Well, that's a good question, isn't it? So this is really a question to do with the musical education of a congregation, isn't it?

[49:36] Now, Rod Thomas would sing the bass part for him because he knew it and could read it from the book and was Welsh. Yeah.

[49:48] The praise book, and Adam would correct me if I'm wrong, does not tend to set things in four-part harmony because it sets things in a way that can be emulated with a guitar.

[50:00] So if you're doing a four-part harmony, you have one chord per beat. That's different chords. Because all the harmony parts are changing as you go through.

[50:12] For a guitarist, that's almost impossible. So these are set so that a guitarist can do it because there are more guitarists than pianists these days. But don't you think the first...

[50:24] Most of the hymns that we sing need to be put into a modern idiom now because music in the world is not sung in terms of hymns now, is it?

[50:39] In the idiom of hymns. So we need to switch that. Like, for instance, Adam this morning, he played... What was it? What a friend we had up in Jesus.

[50:51] And he played it in a really nice swinging rhythm. He did. And people all rose to that. I think we need to have some more of that.

[51:04] Okay. Well, let's... I think we've probably got as far as we can get without coming to blows. Shall we sing 298 and then perhaps Chris could close in prayer for us, please?

[51:17] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.