Suitable music for worship

[0:00] Did you like that? I thought it was fantastic.! A musician. Where's John? Would you comment on it from a musician's point of view?

[0:44] It sounds very good. Fair enough. Yeah, it sounds good.

[0:55] Yeah. How did they make it sound so good? I think the layers of different instruments and the complexity is pleasing.

[1:07] How many different instruments did they have? We can go back and look at the video. Six. Six? That was a guess. And what were they? There's a violin, a whistle.

[1:20] There was a violin, yeah, which did the... The drums. That bit. Two guitars. Two guitars with the rhythm guitarist. And the bass. So that's Stuart...

[1:30] Sorry, I should have said who this is. Stuart Townend playing O Church Arise. We sung this this morning. There's the violin player. There's a whistle. Yeah.

[1:41] There's a whistle player. They did that... And then this drum. If you look at the way the drum is being done, it's just adding a texture. It's not... It's just...

[1:52] Like that. And if you look... His guitar playing is absolutely fantastic. Could we have the volume for that? I tried to play that.

[2:21] It is really difficult to play that. But he's very skillful. And so we've got the drums. What else should we say? We've got that guitar. We've got another guitar going on, which is just going chump, chump, chump.

[2:32] And there's a bass. The bass doesn't come in until later, because you see him tapping. And then he comes in. And the bass... I couldn't particularly hear the bass on this. But what the bass guitar is, it sort of gives a foundation to the music.

[2:46] A sort of low foundation to the music. Is there anything else that was happening musically that you noticed? I think having so many instruments, you need a percussion, obviously, there to keep everybody in the same place.

[3:04] Yeah. Although, to be honest, this has got such a complex rhythm. The guitar does a lot of the rhythm, doesn't it? Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.

[3:15] And the drummer is doing something like that. Vocal-wise, Ruth, would you like to comment vocal-wise? Because you're a fantastic vocalist.

[3:26] You can comment. I mean, I felt like quite a few of us were singing along.

[3:37] So we knew, I mean, even though it was a different style to what we sung this morning, it was still very familiar. The pace of it was still, you know, we could sing along.

[3:49] I personally enjoy having a kind of a little more freedom in those bridges where...

[4:01] Which was the bridge? Which were the bridges? The kind of... Yeah. That bit? Yeah. Yeah. They had some other vocalists there, but you couldn't see them because it wasn't just him going...

[4:14] No. It was a full sound, wasn't it? It was a fantastic sound. Yeah. Lovely. Okay.

[4:27] So, gentleman at the back. Yeah. That's enough even beautiful words so that you could feel. Yeah. Yeah. As a chapter of the words, oh, good.

[4:39] But I haven't heard the word before. Yes. And I'd say his diction wasn't good enough for you to be able to pick it up and sing along the song.

[4:53] well let's be quite hard a lot of songs church wise and otherwise of years ago you could walk along the street having heard it and sing it but his the words did not come out clear enough to be able to sing and remember what the words were which I think is a if you want to succeed you need to do this it's an excellent point because as a solo performance which is what it's on YouTube as for people to listen to it's brilliant but as a congregational song so I said you could sing along and some of us did and then we got lost and then we weren't quite sure where we got to so we needed the words didn't we as a congregational song and although we actually sang it this morning so you didn't have too much to remember from this morning it wasn't that easy to pick up what he was singing and to sing along with it so in terms of congregational singing it was it had that drawback in terms of congregational singing

[6:04] I would say that there could be very few congregations in the UK that could put on that degree of musicianship in that way as they did there that was done in the studio they probably had several takes at it they probably had several goes until they got it exactly right so musicianship you know to get professional quality violinist whatever this is tin whistle player bassist how many keyboards were there was there just was there a keyboard um I'm not quite sure but oh sorry about that is there a keyboard in there what's there that's the other guitarist it's a Celtic feel isn't it oh there is a keyboard but is anybody playing it no we've got a spare keyboard and that cymbal crash was really nice just came in very nicely there what was I going to say um so

[7:25] I think there's a difference between a fantastic performance which that was and something that is usable for congregational singing one thing you need the words number two you've got to have people that can provide that accompaniment and I think it would be very difficult to get people that could provide that accompaniment you'd have to you'd have to wind it back a bit you'd have to find another way of doing it another thing that is worth noticing is what is technically called feel and groove and that the feel and groove is that which is what they it's fantastic I think it's absolutely brilliant this let's see if I let's listen to it again and that that particular song the the the rhythm of it is really quite complicated we sang it this morning and Adam did it

[8:27] I think fairly sort of a straight oh church arise and put your armour on something like that probably a bit faster oh church arise and put your armour on da da dum dum da like that but he you see the feel and groove of this is different do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do a person who would tend to do the one, two, three, four, like that.

[9:27] And this, which was really quite funky, wasn't it? Like that. Okay, it's a Celtic song. Sorry?

[9:40] I think that the fiddle, because it did the... like that. It is a little bit country, isn't it? But I think that one was definitely a Celtic.

[9:53] Yeah, I think he probably, I think what he probably did, and I'm not quite sure about this, because I think it's in D, and... Let's take the transposition off.

[10:08] No, it isn't. I thought it was that one. But it isn't. It's an E. He was playing it in D. It wasn't that, though, was it?

[10:26] Was it? I thought it was a D shape. Oh, well, I play it in D, so I thought he played it in D. But I might be playing it a bit low just to... It sounded like D to me.

[10:37] It might have been... This is all getting very technical, isn't it? But it is, but producing music is technical. It requires technicality and expertise, and you can hear from the way I play the piano, I get some of the notes wrong, and that's not so good.

[10:56] So getting it right is... It's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

[11:09] Yeah, can we have a microphone?

[11:22] Yeah. And the music being a vehicle for congregational singing and being understated.

[11:35] But I think Stuart Townend... And I also think that type of music... I mean, I particularly like that type of music, but I think it's quite clever in that his style is kind of cross-generational.

[11:48] I think young people would enjoy it, and I think people of different generations could as well, because of the acoustic nature of it, because it's not too overbearing. It's rhythmic, but it isn't kind of totally...

[12:02] You know, it's not like walking into a nightclub. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does. And Stuart Townsend's stuff is quite hymn-like, isn't it?

[12:12] Yes, yeah. In that it will take a theme and develop it sentence by sentence and then do that and continue to do that. So it's not just repeating something, a fairly minimal content.

[12:26] It's actually more like a hymn than anything else. Okay. Yeah, thank you for that helpful comment. I've got another couple of songs that we could look at in due course, but let's look at the things that we were discussing, which are up on here.

[12:45] So let's pray again, shall we? Lord, thank you for Stuart Townend. Thank you for his wonderful gifts of music. Thank you for gifts of musicianship. Help us to think through how we can serve you and be blessed by you in these matters here as we go forward.

[13:08] Help us to discuss with good communication, with good hearts, with a desire to see your glory and the blessing of your church.

[13:20] We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Well, let's just recap. This is where we started. So questions that arise, why don't we do such and such like other churches?

[13:32] And I think what I'm wanting to do is to say, if there's a good reason why we don't do it, then let's understand the reason.

[13:43] And if there isn't a good reason why we don't do it, then we could do it. So that's what I'm thinking about with that question. What has been said at members' meetings, so I did quote this from a document that we had, that this is our aspiration, that we would like something like this, someone to ensure that song material could be accurately projected without the preacher needing to organise this, and take initiative so that good and new appropriate Christian songs are sourced, that means find out where they come from, and learnt by the congregation.

[14:22] And then this sentence at the end, to lead and coordinate a team of musicians, sort of in terms of aspiration, not saying that we're going to do this tomorrow, but it's saying this is a sort of a good way to go forward.

[14:36] And we said that we want to go forward in unity, which is not the same as all competing to get our own way. So that's an important thing. I want, it's very important that we go forward together, and we don't say, well this is what I want, or this is what I want.

[14:56] We go forward together. I'd like us to go forward with an appreciation of the issues. So just appreciating what it, I mean even as we've done so far, to appreciate what it is, or to begin to think, what it is that makes something sound the way it sounds, and come across the way it comes across, what's involved in that.

[15:16] And I think all of this, we really don't want to do it just in terms of what I would like, but what does God's word say? What are the values that God's word puts on these things?

[15:29] What are the guidelines? What, yeah, how does the word of God see it? Okay, that's revision, and this is revision two.

[15:40] We looked at the way, we looked at what worship was in the Old Testament, and we had a little look at that, and we saw the way that Old Testament worship moves through Christ into New Testament, and we looked at some verses on that, which I think are repeated again here.

[16:00] And what we came to was that in the New Testament, the whole of life is worship. Everything we do is worship. But there is a subset of worship.

[16:15] There is another part of this whole is what happens here, where Christians come together as church, and what happens there is that smaller set of worship things that are also edifying.

[16:39] So what happens here is worship that is edifying. In other words, something that somebody else can say, I appreciate what you're doing. I can understand what you're doing.

[16:49] I can join in with what you're doing. So I've added one thing to this picture. So these are people doing all sorts of things for the Lord, being a farmer, bringing up a family, a lady operating a crane, somebody evangelizing, that's worship, to bring people into the kingdom.

[17:10] Remember Paul said, this is my priestly work, to bring Gentiles to obedience of faith, and offer them to the Lord. And here, I put this on in since last time, is an individual Christian.

[17:26] Now let's just say for the sake of argument, this person is speaking in tongues, because that's the example that Paul has in 1 Corinthians. And this person is rightly worshipping the Lord, and perhaps in a very heartfelt way, but the person possibly does not understand what they are saying, and anybody listening to this person does not understand what they are saying.

[17:52] So that, which is just between me and the Lord, purely vertical, like that, as Paul says, that is not appropriate within the assembly.

[18:07] So if we come together, the idea of me just worshipping the Lord, so other people can't understand what I'm saying, is not appropriate for the assembly.

[18:19] It's an interesting point, isn't it? But that's what Paul is saying. So, that's what we looked at.

[18:32] All life is worship. Everything in the assembly is worship, and service to the Lord of one sort or another. Prayer, reading, listening, one anothering.

[18:43] These are the things that go on. So we then said, what does the Bible say about singing, and particularly what does the New Testament say? And we got, partway through this, but we didn't complete it.

[18:58] So I threw in this, possibly red herring, can angels sing? Because I don't think the Bible does say angels sing. I think it's a human thing to sing. And, but, whether or not that's correct, there is a song that only the redeemed can sing.

[19:15] No one else could learn it. So there's something, a particular privilege that God's redeemed people have to be able to sing to him, sing his praise that other creatures can't do.

[19:32] And if we're Christians, that's us. Please can we follow through this list, because I jumped, I jumped a point. Can we look at James 5? These are the references to singing in the New Testament.

[19:44] So James 5, 13. 13. James 5, 13.

[19:57] Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to anoint, pray over him and anoint him with oil.

[20:10] So it's just, it's just a reference there to singing, singing a right way of expressing joy. Please, we go to Hebrews 2, verse 12, because I got halfway through this last time and I didn't complete the loop, because Hebrews 2, 12.

[20:31] Go to verse 11. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family.

[20:43] So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, I will declare your name to my brothers. In the presence of the congregation, I will sing your praises.

[20:56] So who is the singer in that verse? Jesus. That's a very interesting reference, because in the Gospels, there is only one reference to Jesus singing.

[21:09] But here, he takes it as an important strand of his argument that Messiah sings the praises of God in the congregation.

[21:25] And can you see the reference to where this comes from? Psalm 22, 22. So last time we sang Psalm 22 and we had a little discussion as to in what way it's appropriate for us to sing that psalm.

[21:50] But the quote that Jesus will sing your praises in the presence of the congregation comes from, where is it?

[22:07] Verse 25? Psalm 22, verse 25, is it? 22. Oh, thank you. I will declare your name to my brothers. In the congregation, I will praise you.

[22:21] So, it's actually a very significant verse. So we have the sufferer in Psalm 22 who says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

[22:33] But the story ends with him coming through his suffering and then going to a large company of people and singing and declaring the praises of God in that congregation.

[22:46] And that's part of the way salvation works, that Messiah suffered, but the end result is that he should have a great company of people to whom he sings and with whom he sings.

[23:04] That seems to be about the importance of that. And Romans 15, 9 does a rather similar thing. So this is Paul using Old Testament texts to talk about the quality of New Testament fellowship and the unity of the New Testament church and the development of the New Testament church.

[23:42] And he says in Romans 15 verse 7, Accept one another then just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy.

[24:04] As it is written, Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles. I will sing hymns to your name. The I there is Messiah again.

[24:17] So what is Paul doing? He's saying there is a vision in the Old Testament of Messiah bringing in the Gentiles and in this great congregation singing praises to God.

[24:30] Anybody know where this quote comes from? Have I? Oh well, there I have. Yeah, so Psalm 18 which is, we also sang last week and I never got around to explaining why I've chosen to sing it.

[24:52] Psalm 18 is a psalm of the king. I love you O Lord my strength. So we fairly easily sing it as if it was our song but first of all it's Messiah's song and he ends up saying in verse 49 therefore I will praise you among the nations O Lord I will sing praises to your name and Paul sees that song of Messiah to be very significant for the plan of salvation.

[25:25] So what I just point those things out without going any further into them. We did jump to Colossians 3 16 so we did that last time.

[25:37] Let's look at Ephesians 5 19 Ephesians 5 19 which is what we read earlier.

[26:07] So if we start at verse 17 therefore do not be foolish but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine which leads to debauchery.

[26:20] Instead be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord always giving thanks to God the Father for everything in the name of Jesus Christ submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

[26:40] Can we just tease that out? I think it would be worth doing this just to make sure we get the hang of this. Let's tease this out for a few minutes. So here's a picture of that verse. I've got one person there. Would we like to fill in?

[26:50] What else could we put in this picture here to depict the verse? Verse 19 and 20.

[27:05] More people. Okay. Whoops. A bit wobbly. I don't think I'd pass a lie detector test with wobbly writing like that.

[27:17] Oh dear. Okay. Okay. And what's happening to those people? So they're there. Yes. It says speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

[27:37] So we need sort of one another arrows. So this person is speaking to that person, that person is speaking to that person and vice versa. And they're singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

[27:55] Now whether Paul meant what might come to our minds with those I think is perhaps not completely sure but certainly psalms, songs, spiritual songs.

[28:11] Sing to one another. So has that completed the diagram now? So we sing to one another like that. What else does it say? Speaking to one another. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

[28:24] Yes it is isn't it? Yes. Yeah. So there's a sort of a content to it as well as a musicality. So I'll put some musical notes in there. So it's speaking in a musical way presumably.

[28:36] Could do. Yeah.

[28:52] Yeah. It could be although it does go on to say make music in your heart to the Lord.

[29:06] So I think the music is probably there. But that's a valid thing isn't it to to say. We do.

[29:19] Yeah. Yeah. But I think what it is saying is that it is in the nature of Christian singing that we're addressing one another. So Psalm 95 which we looked at last time says come let us sing to the Lord.

[29:35] let us what does it say? Rejoice in the God of our salvation. Let us sing for joy to the Lord. Let us shout aloud to the rock of our salvation.

[29:48] Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song. And that is one another isn't it? It's not God do this. It is let us sing for joy to the Lord.

[30:02] Let us shout aloud to the God of our salvation. It's a one another thing. Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song. So it's a sideways thing.

[30:13] You know I'm saying it to you you're saying it to me we're saying it to one another. looking at the translation here I think the NIV most people have got says make music in your heart to the Lord.

[30:37] The new NIV translated is make music from your heart to the Lord. I don't know what the Greek means but that will actually in a sense seem to make more sense because if you're making music in your heart you're not necessarily doing it to anybody else.

[30:53] But it seems to be what he's saying is that you make music from your heart so in other words it's not just you're not just singing something that you know it's a catchy tune or something but it's something that comes from inside you and yet it is to the Lord and to one another.

[31:09] Thank you. So we've got this that it's it's not just singing it's from from the heart from it's you know our beings we mean it we think this is important you know if it's it's singing about something serious we take it seriously if it's singing about something wonderful we think it's wonderful if we're singing about something intimidating we're intimidated by it and he says to the Lord so in this other main text you've got the same thing that there is a sideways component this way and a vertical component where it's to the Lord and it's also to one another so in Stuart Townend's song oh church of Christ oh church arise and put your armor on it's horizontal isn't it it's talking to one another come on guys get up put your armor on it so it's classic in that sense isn't it are we happy with that thought it's just really repeating what the Colossians 316 says but it's an important point because it's not just me and the

[32:16] Lord it is what other people can pick up you know I learnt something I joined in we were there I agreed with what was said right okay so let's come to this bit so why singing and why music that's a huge subject and I would say singing is a human gift singing is what in a sense we're made for because it has the added dimension of mood and emotion it's very difficult to pin this down and maybe as we discuss it you can put this better than I've been putting it but music is affecting it affects us so we were feeling low and miserable and somebody told us about the goodness of Christ and that warmed our hearts a bit when they sang to us about the goodness of

[33:24] Christ we thought yes that's right music has the quality to affect us in a way that just speaking doesn't and music is expressive so we can be feeling Christ is great what he's done for me is brilliant so I could say it but if I could sing it then that's a way of expressing that with an added dimension tell out my soul the greatness of the Lord you know you could sing it out couldn't you so it's expressive and music can also be intoxicating so when we have the musical evening I always thoroughly enjoy it but I find I'm singing the songs over in my head for the next couple of days and I'm taken up with with the music it's an intoxicating I see you're nodding it it is isn't it music is intoxicating I'm going to show you an example and you I don't want you to be upset by it but I want to show you this just to show that without the words music itself is intoxicating you so just take this that's the point

[35:00] I'm going to make that's all it is watch watch this we have the sound can I have a bit more volume have I turned it where have I turned it there what have I done to it what have I done I've had my shoes and kicked in my face like I'm close to you come on on on on we are the champions my friend we are the champions we are the champions no time for losers because we are the champions of the world of the world

[36:16] I've taken my bow that's enough but I mean it's a fantastic song I don't know what it's about probably I don't really want to know but it is it is so anthemic isn't it have anybody been to a Queen concert my my brother has what did you enjoy it fantastic were you oh yes yeah yeah um that's what I say music is intoxicating whatever he was singing about I have no idea really but it was something to do with champions but the the oomph of the music just I mean for me it just carries me along like that bass do do do do do sorry it's just me isn't it but I I I think oh you know just really but yes this is this is the what am I responding to in that what is what is what is making me think oh not the words because I've got no idea what the words are about we're the champions is it football

[37:33] I mean is it I don't know I don't really want to know but what I'm responding to is the music isn't it I'm just responding to that that that the sort of the rhythm of it do do do and that that little bit that will come do do do comes in like that do do do that's what I'm responding to and this is this is where we have to be a bit careful isn't it because music has a huge power an intoxicating power and that's why we've got to think carefully about when we how we have that power at work in the congregation now with Queen that's who it was in case you weren't quite sure so they've got a big drum kit they've got a fantastic lead guitarist I don't really know very much about the bass player and then they've got

[38:35] Freddie Mercury up at the front doing his you know really strutting and he's got a fantastically powerful versatile voice as well had so we probably don't have those gifts so in a sense we're probably spared the question of how we utilize such such amazing gifts but it's still a question so this whole matter of emotions and music so I think we need to think a little bit about the emotions emotions and human makeup so you might say oh well he's gone off the subject again but I think it is important that we think about this so let's look these are references in Mark and this is Jesus and emotions so one mistake to make would be to say okay well if that's what music is capable of let's just be as emotionless as possible which would be a great mistake so in these references we find well let's see what we do find

[39:41] Mark chapter 3 verse 5 this is Jesus it says he looked around at them in anger and deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts said to the man stretch out your hand is there any emotion in those verses yes anger distress yes yep so this is Jesus isn't it so Jesus is not emotionless he is not like you know Colonel Carruthers stiff upper lip you know that's a sort of wartime idea of human human aspiration to be emotionless Jesus is not emotionless he gets angry he gets distressed 6 verse 6 Mark 6 verse 6 he was amazed at their lack of faith did you say that was emotional had emotional content to it yeah

[40:49] I think so it's an emotion I'm amazed amazed it's not just saying I didn't know that it's saying this affects me I have an emotional response to it 10 14 when Jesus saw this he was indignant anybody got a different translation he was greatly displeased that's an emotional response isn't it Jesus doesn't say no or that's wrong he's angry about it he's indignant about it and 1426 is actually the reference to singing I think is that right 1426 this is at the Lord's supper the last supper when they had sung a hymn they went out to the Mount of Olives so Jesus presumably was a singer he sang but that's not as I've tried to show that's not the only significant point about the singing of

[41:58] Jesus there's a big theological point about him singing in those other two references but his actual earthly singing that's the reference there Luke 10 21 Luke 10 21 yeah Luke 10 21 at that time Jesus full of joy through the Holy Spirit said I praise you Father Lord of heaven and earth because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children yes father for this was your good pleasure so that's a reference to Jesus being what emotion there joy yeah Jesus being full of joy so we would really get the wrong end of the stick if we were to say that the way ahead is to just remove all emotion we're all wired up differently so excuse me different people different personalities express emotions differently so

[43:08] I think I'm probably not a particularly emotional person I don't express emotion a huge amount but some of you are and some of you are a brilliant adornment to our congregation because the rest of us are feeling that's great that's great and you emotional people are showing it in your faces and waving your arms or whatever you're doing and you are expressing!

[43:32] that in a way that perhaps some of us is less natural to us so there's expression of emotion is different and feeling of emotion is different so sometimes you might feel an emotion quite deeply you might be deeply upset about something but it doesn't show very much on the outside you might be deeply pleased about something and all that comes out is a little smile on the corner of your face or whatever I'm trying to say there so we should we're all different in this respect and it would be oppressive really to say to everybody in the congregation you have got to feel this way and you have got to express it in this way we have to allow for one another to be different but what the Bible is saying is everything that you happen to be everything that you are is offered to the Lord and if you are just a quiet person then you offer to the Lord your quietness and if you are an extravagant person then you offer to

[44:32] God your extravagance so Jesus and the emotions and I think what we could say here is that Jesus got angry about things that people ought to get angry about Jesus was joyful about things that God wants people to be joyful about and of course that's our problem isn't it because we get happy about things that God says well that's not such a big deal we get upset by things that God says well that's not just a big deal and we fail to be joyful about the things that God says this is brilliant and we fail to be upset about the things that God says this is awful do you see what I mean so we need to teach our emotions we need to train our emotions we need to cultivate the emotional side of us to be what it ought to be let me say something about the heart because it mentioned that in the text didn't it and what

[45:32] I'm going to try and do is push against our current culture because we have a cultural understanding of heart which is not the same as what the Bible has so if you care to look at some of these references in Proverbs we've just sort of taken a smattering of them Proverbs 8 5 it's different in my Bible to the one I looked up so I'm going to need some help as anybody Proverbs 8 5 says in my version you who are simple gain prudence you who are foolish gain understanding has anybody got another translation ah so what does it say set your heart on 8 5 you who are simple gain prudence you who are foolish set your hearts on it on set your hearts on it just says 8 presumably the prudence ah right ok yes set your heart on wisdom set your heart on wisdom yes so interesting that the heart there is the place where wisdom can be found set your heart on wisdom let's try 11 29 see whether this one works because

[47:22] I probably won't no anybody help us with this I've got he who brings trouble on his family will inherit only when the fool will be servant to the wise anybody got anything more helpful than that the wise of heart excellent ok the wise of heart so again in that text a heart is a place where you have wisdom and let's try 15 13 see whether this one will work for us ok this one does a happy heart makes the face cheerful but heartache crushes the spirit so that is to say that happiness is part of what you can expect of a heart but if you put those with the others and I've just done this very quickly what I'm trying to say is that the heart in the Bible is not just the place of emotion it is the place of emotion and wisdom and lots of things like that so

[48:29] I put here the heart is not emotions only now in contemporary culture we we say and even Christians say this the opposite of the head so they say heart knowledge and head knowledge I think we know what people mean but that is not a biblical way of expressing it if you know the Lord with your heart then that is your wisdom your thinking your feeling etc etc so the heart is the if you like the inner me so it is the place of thoughts and plans and values and motivations and desires and fears and things that I love and things that I hate and from what goes on in there come actions so let me lean against a couple of things in contemporary psychology so we pick this up what is the real me what is the real me and the wrong thing is to think well

[49:37] I've got all sorts of ideas which I think but the real me is what I feel and I have to be true to the real me because the real me is my emotions that's not what the Bible says the Bible doesn't do this compartmentalizing head heart heart is the real head heart head is the thinking heart is the feeling the heart is the real person!

[50:01] You get into huge problems if you think the feeling is the real me well why? Because some of the things we feel we ought not to feel some of the things we feel are sinful and we have to say the Lord has changed my heart has changed me and those feelings I'm not going to take any notice of those I'm going to mortify those not going to act in accordance with those so we don't have to be true to our feelings and we can also say that what I assent to in words is the real me well we know that's not true either is it because you can say something in words but not live up to it not live it out so I think the way the Bible goes is to say we guard our hearts and there's a real link between what's the real me and what I actually do so you may say you love the

[51:09] Lord but what do you do do you do anything to show that so if it's really you then you will do it there's a linkage there so I so I just wanted to say that about the heart did that make sense anybody want to ask for clarification or protest yes I wondered about that when we think about human nature we tend to use we tend to mentally draw little boxes conscience will heart emotions like this and try and connect them up heart mind actions and

[52:11] I think the Bible doesn't do that it just says heart and it also uses soul is that what you said soul well I was thinking about this is that just another way of saying heart and the answer is I don't know I don't know yes yes it does use spirit yes yeah gentlemen behind those society community industry in all these languages and a network network network network network apparently.

[53:40] The medical knowledge is one thing, isn't it? We know that the brain function all takes place up here and digestion takes around there. The ancients used to say that the belly was the seat of the emotions and the kidneys made decisions and we know it's just a way of speaking. Will you allow me to I thought I'd plug this in.

[54:04] Where's my bag? Here it is. Thank you very much.

[54:23] Thank you. Thank you Chris. Okay, let's go on a little bit further if we may. So what is the God way with music and emotion and meaning and spirit and the affecting and expressing and stirring? Can we look at Romans 8.16?

[54:49] Romans 8.16 Romans 8.16 Romans 8.16 Romans 8.16 So this verse says the spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

[55:13] Okay, the spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. So a little insight there into the inner workings of the Christian psychology if you like.

[55:28] and he mentions and he mentions two spirits. Mentions the human spirit and the divine spirit and he says that when it comes to the matter of calling God Abba Father which is in the previous verse our spirit testifies that we are children of God.

[55:49] So there's something within us which says I'm a child of God. I look up to God and I don't feel him to be a cruel distant stranger but I I sense that he is my father.

[56:08] So my spirit says that. And it says the divine spirit the spirit himself testifies with our spirit.

[56:19] So there's a sense in which I'm feeling that's that's who God is is amazing. And the divine spirit says you're absolutely right. God says that's the case as well.

[56:31] It isn't just that you think it but God says that and the human spirit and the divine spirit are in accord with one another in this sense of I belong to God.

[56:45] Does that make sense? Now that's that's what we want to aim for isn't it? The human capacity says I belong to God and the divine spirit says that's absolutely right.

[57:00] So my thought on this is in music the human spirit can be stirred. So I'm stirred by we are the champions.

[57:13] Does the divine spirit concur with that? Absolutely not. I need to distinguish between those two things.

[57:24] To be honest it's almost a religious experience isn't it? Would you agree with that? Going to that queen concert there's something almost transcendent yeah.

[57:37] Yeah. You're in an yeah. It is almost yeah it's almost if we would say a spiritual experience.

[57:57] So I think this is and I'm not probably expressing this very well but this is the bit that is the important bit that we should not confuse the stirring of the human spirit to say oh that's the holy spirit working because it may or may not be.

[58:17] But what we are looking for is the human spirit to be stirred and the divine spirit concurring and saying this is absolutely right. Does that make sense? And the question is what caused the stirring of the human spirit?

[58:36] So we are the champions. It is simply the brilliant melody, the singing, that harmonic progression.

[58:48] That's what's stirring my human spirit. And of course with Christian music we have to be careful. what is it that stirred me?

[59:01] Well was it that chord progression? That voice? Because I mean that Stuart Tannen, I found that stirring and I loved the rhythm.

[59:13] But what we have to be careful of is that what is actually I'm responding to is the words. Isn't that right? Oh church arise and put your R on.

[59:23] That should be what I'm responding to and the music should help me do that. So here's I'm so pleased it is actually making sense I'm quite pleased about that.

[59:34] Here's a quote from Dr. Francis Schaeffer. Here it is and he said it I heard it on a tape and when I heard it on a tape he had a rather high pitched voice and he said the artistic form enhances the didactic statement.

[59:49] and it was in a tape on art norms art norms so it was about visual arts and he was talking about the visual arts so he says in the renaissance a painter would paint a housewife doing some cooking and what he wanted to say was this woman is doing this for the Lord this is a beautiful act even though it's so ordinary this is worship of God and so he would paint this in a beautiful way so he has a statement he's making cooking can be done for the Lord and his artistic form the way he uses his paints enhances that statement it says this can be done for the Lord look at the beautiful way I've done this look at the way the light is look how I've made her face shine look how beautiful this food is it's just ordinary humble food but there's a beauty to it and the artistic form enhances the didactic statement now this to me seems to be the key to music in the assembly what we want the music to do is serve what's being said it's the content so if the content is triumphant we want the music to stir and express what did I just say triumphant triumphant music if the content is reflective we want the music to help us to reflect if the content is penitent we want the music to express penitence do you see what I mean and that is the musical challenge it is a musical challenge it's not for theologians but for musicians to be able to express that both in what is written and how it's performed so I use performed

[62:03] I don't mean performed so you just admire the musicianship but the music comes and enhances what's being said does that make sense because I think this is the key to the whole thing because I think sometimes we can have wonderful words which are terribly let down by the music because the music just doesn't do anything for us sometimes we have fantastic music and you think that's great what on earth am I singing but what we want is those two together and that seems to me to be the way whatever that looks like that would include songs that haven't yet been written and songs that we've never yet sung but that's the way to go isn't it that says something that captures something and expresses it musically in a way that we can say yes that enhances that that helps us to express it helps us to feel what that's saying is that fair enough ho-hum right have you had enough now probably have haven't you shall we shall we listen to some more music that's just what I was going to say well would you like to this one oh right okay this is this is this is Lou fellingham in a new outfit okay this is by request especially for

[63:39] Julia can we have the volume and can it be that I should gain this is in your book is that what you wanted died died he for me so I'll tell you what rather than saying rather than saying I like it or I don't like it let's let's look up at the word let's find the words and can it be I think they're pretty much the same and we ask ourselves the question does the artistic form enhance the didactic statement that's the question and can it 776 I do like the traditional tune but I'm willing to be convinced yes yeah yeah well so let's ask ourselves the question does the artistic form enhance the didactic statement because you can have two good tunes to something or neither of them might work so the question is does it does it what's it supposed to be saying it's asking a question can I gain an interest in the saviour's blood died he for me who caused his pain for me who hymns his death per sea so that's a rather reflective question but the answer is rather exuberant isn't it amazing love how can it be that you my God should die for me so let's listen to it because you did ask and that was the one so you're going to get it so this is a question we ought to ask not do I like it do I like the tune but does it serve the words and then and then we would ask the question is it singable so would it be possible for us with our far fewer musical talents to sing this as a congregation so that would be another question wouldn't it so so so so so even at his breeze no no that's the wrong tune right try again and can it be that I should gain an interest in the Savior's blood died he for me who caused his pain for me who into death pursued amazing love how can it be that now my God should die for me amazing love how can it be that now my God should die for me he left his father's throne above so free so even at his praise emptied himself of all but love and bled for Adam's helpless race tears mercy all immense and free

[67:40] for oh my God it found out me tears mercy all immense and free for oh my God it found out me me oh my God Long my in-brisomed spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night.

[68:25] Thine I diffused a quick way, I rolled a dungeon flamed with light.

[68:37] My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose with blood and followed me.

[68:50] My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose with blood and followed me.

[69:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No condemnation now I dread, but Jesus at all in heaven is prime.

[69:24] I lie in Him my living head, and clothed with righteousness divine.

[69:36] Oh, I approach the child's throne, and claim the crown through Christ my own.

[69:49] Amazing love, how can it be, that now my call through Christ my own.

[70:02] Amazing love, how can it be, that now my call through Christ my own.

[70:15] Amazing love, how can it be, that now my call through Christ my own.

[70:28] It's nice, isn't it? Nice, it's a nice tune. I would have liked it to go for it more, with the bits where it says amazing love. I would have liked it to go for it more than a day, but with the bold eye approach.

[70:40] Yes, Steve. Flat in the...

[70:57] Flat in the... I mean, we sang, we sang, sing to God, new songs of worship, and that was the debate of us. The song was the hope of joy.

[71:08] It's a very simple tune, you can play that on a kid's iPhone, I don't know if you've done it. But it's a very simple tune, yet it has tremendous emotional power in the tune.

[71:20] It's partly, of course, the association that you, who are you, you first base the faith over night, simply knows the emotional cause of it. So these things get so crazy. Sometimes actually feel that some of these modern settings of the older hymns are actually a little bit flat emotion.

[71:36] Okay, well, that's quite a general statement. I think we need specifics rather than properly not... It doesn't get as much fun making a general statement like that.

[71:47] I'm sure there are songs of... Yeah, there's different genres, and I thought we might get onto that this evening, but I think we'd better stop, hadn't we?

[72:01] Yes. Yeah, I would argue that's not English, but I mean, that's...

[72:13] Yes. I just wonder, in terms of gauging effectiveness, or any kind of work, whether within the church, in context or outlive, whether it surely has to be monitored in ourselves and in the church, in terms of the growth and the fruits and the fruits and the fruits.

[72:40] I just wonder whether it's like a common... whether we're singing to one style or another.

[72:52] I mean, it could very much choose a style, or a bit of a... Yeah. ... ... ... ... ...

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