Rise Heart! Looking Towards Easter through Glorious Music

[0:00] We are honored and delighted to have another member of our congregation who has a long history of service. And I am always so delighted.

[0:13] I am so delighted. As someone who grew up in a household that every time she put on classical music, she was told that she was listening to long-haired, freaky people. So it is delightful to find a kindred spirit and a mentor and just a wonderful guest speaker who is going to introduce our hearts to listen joyfully to the season as it approaches.

[0:39] Thank you so much. Thank you very much. That's very kind and undeserved as usual.

[0:51] So I'm sorry I've got a cold. So don't get too close to the speakers. You might catch that. And I can't claim to be long hair having wandered into a frightening hair salon in Steveston the other week, unbeknownst to me.

[1:15] There was no question of getting out until I finished. So, yes, we're in Lent and Passion Week approaches.

[1:26] Originally, this talk was to have been a bit later. So a little bit of an apology because then it was, it would have slotted in perhaps into the church calendar a little more readily.

[1:36] But there is much music here which I thought one could kind of use as preparation as we come out of the Passion Week into the celebration of Christ's victory.

[1:49] There is a moment, a seven minute point where I want to play, however, something from the Passion Week by James Macmillan.

[2:00] It's an incredibly moving piece. I know I played some of his music last time. This is a quite different piece. That'll come a bit later. But I thought just to get us going, I'd set up things.

[2:13] I hope this is going to behave this time. So while Bach introduces his Easter Oratorio, just to say that in Lent and during Passion Week there are more aspects, more strands for reflection than there are perhaps at Easter.

[2:43] Easter, of course, Easter, of course, is the apex. But at the same time it's recognition of Christ's victory over death and celebrating that.

[2:55] In Passion Week, as you know, and throughout Lent, there are different aspects. In the case of the Macmillan piece, different aspects that can be broken down into the famous seven last words of Christ on the cross.

[3:07] What we find, at least what I find with composers, is that there's just this glorious reflection and concentration on the empty tomb and the risen Christ.

[3:21] This is Bach utilizing Baroque dance rhythms as ever. So imagine coming out of Passion Week and getting that playing in your home.

[3:37] So in Baroque music, I've got to be so careful with Terry standing at the back, but I think I'm right in saying that the influences chiefly, there are some variations, are the dance.

[4:03] Dance is used to convey not just joyful things, but mostly the positive and the joyful. And then the operatic influences that were emerging in Italy often informed the reflective and the sorrowful.

[4:22] Not exclusively, but those are two very strong influences. What I love about Bach's music is it's indulgent.

[4:37] Focused inwards. Goes out and appeals immediately. There are no words yet.

[4:57] That comes later. I'll be quoting from this twice. So there's Bach slaving away as a church musician most of his life, ending up triumphantly at the Thomas Kircher in Leipzig, and where some of his richest works emerge.

[5:19] It's as though, as John Elliot Gardner says in his books, Music and the Castles of Heaven, Bach was energized by that position that he'd got and was driven to write, push the cantatas he was writing, churning them out, not churning, it's a wrong word, producing at a very fast high level.

[5:38] One of the marvels is how on earth did he ever get it written in the time he had.

[5:54] How did he produce so much? Writing a cantata for next Sunday, getting all the parts written, probably with help. Still, you'll have to come up with a score.

[6:08] So Bach, 1685 to 1750, catching the richest corner of musical development in Lutheran Protestantism.

[6:31] Bach took many of the chorales that were written or collected by Luther and harmonized them. Others did so too, but Bach's harmonizations are the ones that tend to stick.

[6:45] The famous one is A Mighty Fortress is Our God, which, if you look at the early version of that in Luther's day, and it's still, maybe a little later, is in the current Lutheran hymnal.

[7:00] It's nothing like the square four, that we're used to, which is lovely and wonderful, and that Bach harmonized.

[7:14] But it's more like... Quite odd rhythms.

[7:24] Renaissance rhythms. Renaissance dance rhythms. It's a very interesting little corner. I often refer to it. Forgive me if I'm repeating it. Paul Jones, musicologist Canadian, based in Philadelphia, says, If I had a quarter for every time people said Luther uses tavern music to create his hymns, I'd be a wealthy man.

[7:50] He says it's a complete myth. And part of the confusion is the term bar music. Bar music is a poetic form from that period.

[8:03] It's got nothing to do with taverns at all. But I think that's part of the mix-up. It's not the only one. For people who've got over the bar music thing, it's still a confusion.

[8:13] Luther, like Wesley, had a very definite view that the music you use in Praise of Our Lord has to have a particular dedicated quality. You don't just take it off the shelf and plug it into your church, which is an interesting thought.

[8:32] Then... I was hoping you'd get into some trouble in here. No, I didn't say a thing. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER Yes.

[8:50] And then... There are so many different ways of celebrating in voice and instrument. And sometimes it's grandiose, as we'll see later on, really grandiose.

[9:02] Or it can be very simple and yet wonderfully intricate, woven like lace. Here's a piece by William Byrd. I did play this last time, actually, but it was in a different context.

[9:16] Heikdias. This is the day the Lord has made. Rejoice in it. It's got an Easter connection. And sounds like...

[9:29] And I'm hoping that... ...

[9:40] ... ... Six blocks... ... ... ...

[9:59] that as a reference point. 15, 40, 16, 20, I think. Dance, though.

[10:29] Dance, though.

[10:59] Dance, though.

[11:29] Dance, though. Dance, though. Dance, though. Dance, though. Beautifully sung, too. Fortunately, I didn't bring my list of performers.

[11:39] That's embarrassing. But I fancy that's Clare College in England. Around the same time, in fact, in paralleling this, that's in Britain, paralleling William Byrd, who wrote for the Protestant church, he was very much caught up in the turbulence of the time religiously, and was capable of, you had to please your masters.

[12:05] Sometimes throwing in a bit of Latin was a good idea. That's to show you weren't completely Protestant. But he eventually became a Catholic.

[12:16] But a lot of his work was, I guess, he just switched. It wasn't particularly committed. I suppose you were very anxious to keep your head in those days, in more senses than one.

[12:29] Over in the Netherlands, however, we have Orlando de Lassus, who wrote this beautiful setting of The Day Draws On With Golden Light.

[12:43] Looking ahead to, that's half my papers behind. Oh, well, there am I. I have all the texts. I think I must have left them in the kitchen.

[12:54] Do you mind if I just go back and get them? The Day Draws On With Golden Light, a reference to Out of the Darkness of Good Friday in towards Easter Day.

[13:05] Again, it is in Latin, but it's a hymn that's probably in our hymn book of old. And the day draws on with golden light.

[13:17] This version by Orlando de Lassus shows a much richer, if you will, and certainly more adventurous style. Now we've got instruments built in, and we've got what's called polychoral texture.

[13:31] We just had polyphony. We'll have that again. Different voices in conversation with each other. Bach, of course, is a master of this too. But now polychoral, that is a choir one, choir two, a group of cornetty, wooden kind of trumpety things.

[13:50] And the effect, when done well, can be very, very, very moving. – Amen.

[14:34] And it's more segmented than the through composed bird piece we heard. A lot of rising phrases.

[15:25] Again, we find that in the Baroque era. An Easter tendency to use rising motifs. Advent tendency to use downward motifs.

[15:38] And in passion settings, a lot of use of chromatic downward steps in the bass line to indicate sorrow. These are called affects.

[15:50] There was a whole language, elaborate language of them. There was a whole language of the bass line to indicate sorrow.

[16:03] There was a whole language of the bass line to indicate sorrow. There was a whole language of the bass line to indicate sorrow.

[16:15] We've also got deep trombones in there. Or sack butts, I should say. Another segment.

[16:31] In addition, we've got a lot of vertical texture in this music.

[16:46] That is homophonic music where chords are happening like that as against a texture that's like that. So this has polyphony, but it has this other aspect to it. The block, if you like, block chording going through.

[17:00] Now that would have something to do with the fact that this is written at the time of the counter-reformation. Which made a principal concern of it.

[17:14] Made it a principal concern that the music and the words must make sense to the congregation.

[17:27] You may say, well, how can you hear the words in that kind of environment? True.

[17:45] Anyway, what the Council of Trent was concerned with was the overlay of parts polyphony got out of hand to such an extent that you couldn't tell at all what the text was.

[18:00] They were concerned that words should be clear. A curious obsession because that's always been in Protestant, not to say evangelical tradition. You've got to hear the words and they've got to make sense.

[18:14] A great hesitation about the use of Latin, even though you may know very well what it means. Or the Greek, Kyrie eleison, or the Sanctus or the Benedictus in Latin. You know, you know what it's about.

[18:26] But that won't do. It's got to be clear in the language that everybody, how does it say it in the 13th and 18th?

[18:37] Understand it of the people. Yes. So, the Counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church had a bearing on composers like this. And the last has had a huge influence.

[18:51] And these guys travelled. It's extraordinary. They thought nothing of going from the Netherlands, where he was based, to Venice. And back and forth, so that scholars still debate whether he actually influenced the Venetian school with brass, choir one, choir two, brass, choir two, organ.

[19:15] Or whether it was the other way round. It was probably a little bit of interchange. Then, if I can return to Bach.

[19:26] The original Bach I played was just by way of introducing us to the morning. But, time now to hear from the Easter Oratorio this Jaxet.

[19:40] Praise and thanks remain, O Lord, your song of tribute. Hell and the devil are conquered, their gates are destroyed.

[19:52] Rejoice, ye redeemed tongues. Jaxet, your elustren zungen. The Lion of Judah is coming in triumph.

[20:04] Once again, dance rhythms. Trumpets, of course.

[20:15] Brass instruments always associated with glory. Triumph. Trumpets, theindustrie D holders.

[20:41] A nel凍 kxudu? Congress, Republicans. Thank you.

[21:17] Rejoice ye redeemed tongues so that it may be heard in heaven. Amen. So that it may be heard in heaven.

[21:45] Open ye heavens. This is leading into the Lion of Judah line.

[21:57] wojewen juda. Wow. It's compressed, it's intricate, but so powerful.

[22:25] So Bach is my hero in so many ways, but principally because he, I really do think, and I don't think it's fanciful, I think it's now been researched enough to be able to say that he epitomized the notion of doing a thing to the very possible best from top to bottom baked through.

[22:49] No surface top line with a kind of dum-dum, which tends to be a temptation, only a temptation, I would say it always happens in some of the Romantic idioms.

[23:03] The famous story about it is the double bass player who all he ever knew was he went, So what is that? So tune matters, everything else serves, is subservient to that.

[23:23] Not in the highest levels of polyphony, the finest accomplishments of polyphony. Each line is of equal weight and value.

[23:36] A trio sonata by Bach, say for the organ or harpsichord, the right hand on one keyboard, the left hand on another, and the feet, pedal harpsichord, working away with lines that are of equal weight and intricacy and demand.

[23:52] That kind of philosophy behind his work, that even though we can't all be expected to hear the detail, God does.

[24:04] That, I think, is such a golden rule for craftsmanship. The hidden bit, the joint in here, done well, you can't see it, it's covered up now, but that's important.

[24:15] Rather than it falling apart, only to discover it's just been screwed together, some cheap form. So, good for Bach.

[24:28] Also, good for Handel. There are traces of that Renaissance handling of material here.

[24:50] Vertical, statement, worthy is a lamb. There are no brass instruments there, but there should be.

[25:01] To receive gold and riches and present and spread and blood and blood and massive. It's a magisterial kind of writing.

[25:17] It is the lamb that was slain. It has redeemed us.

[25:30] It has redeemed us. It has redeemed us. It has redeemed us. Then the polyphony.

[25:53] Blessing the Lord and glory and power be unto him, be unto him, that sits upon the throne and come to the land.

[26:04] Blessing the Lord and glory and power be unto him, be unto him, that sits upon the throne and come to the land.

[26:14] Blessing the Lord and glory and power be unto him, that sits upon the throne and come to the throne and come to the throne and come to the throne and come to the throne and come to the throne and come to the throne and Elohim, that is the name of Baba Mariaania, was city, right?

[26:38] Blessing the Lord and glory and power be unto him, were there forgotten be the throne and come to the throne and hope to him, that is built upon him and come to the throne and come to his throne and choose upon him. CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS

[27:42] And of course it leads on to the great Amen Chorus right after. CHOIR SINGS There's very little to comment on when it comes to Handel's Messiah.

[27:59] It's an extraordinary work. It's packed full of different styles, through the arias and the recitatives. Well, the recitatives are our style. But even there, there are three different kinds.

[28:09] There's the accompanied and the secco, partly accompanied and the completely unaccompanied. Although I don't think there are any of those in the Messiah, but there could be in that idiom.

[28:20] But not only that, you've got this use of vertical, the use of polyphony or counterpoint, and the different moods that are drawn upon.

[28:35] And of course in the passion segment of the Messiah, some very moving music. Again, utilising more chromatic. That's moving in semitones. CHOIR SINGS Kind of motifs.

[28:55] Why? Oh yes, right. It's interesting, I think, perhaps significant, that both the Bach performances we're hearing and the Handel performances we're hearing are directed by Christians.

[29:06] In the case of the Bach, it's an extraordinary story of Suzuki, the conductor, who, like a number of Japanese musicians, have become Christians for the music of Bach.

[29:20] And I may have mentioned before, I read an article in First Things magazine by a Japanese organist, professor of organ, who became a Christian through studying the music of Bach.

[29:32] I don't quite know how that works, except, I mean, one can see it at a certain level, but for it to move you, perhaps with the same, or very nearly the same power of the word itself, is extraordinary.

[29:46] It's obviously a work of the Holy Spirit, but it's very exciting. But both those performances, Joan Butt and the Dunedin Consort for Messiah, and then the Suzuki Chorale, and that's not what it's called, it's not quite right.

[30:04] It's a Sony recording. He's done all the choral works of Bach. Very fine performances. Another person who's done superb recordings is John Elliot Gardner, who unfortunately died rather suddenly recently.

[30:19] And he was about to record all the cantatas. I don't think he did. But now he came from a Quaker background. I'm not so sure how he stood in terms of conviction about the Christian gospel.

[30:33] He was at CBC. He conducted the CBC orchestra for three years. He was a very fine fellow. He was a superb musician. I just don't know. But those are some of the recordings that are out there.

[30:48] This is kind of hot off the press, because we're going to leap into the 20th century with this. I found this because of the audiophile aspect.

[31:00] The 2L, a Norwegian label, is specializing in superb recordings. I don't have the equipment to play some of them.

[31:11] They are not just... This is only... Where else but in Europe? Where else but in Scandinavia? It's not just surround sound they're producing. It's that, plus over the top.

[31:23] And the sampling rate is... Most CDs sample at 44.1 kHz. You can record at 48, 96 if you like. But 352, whatever the next doubling up is.

[31:37] Well, they do. But they're also catching some beautiful singing. This is from Nidaros Cathedral. And they are featuring a lot of contemporary Norwegian composers.

[31:55] Including this one. I've got to remind myself again. Where's he gone? Overoy. O-V-E-R-O.

[32:05] The line through it. Y-E. And that's the building they're recording in. If you can see that. And this cathedral has got this remarkable woman directing the choirs there.

[32:21] They've also got a magnificent organ with a separate organist. But she's doing amazing work. This is a setting of Psalm 86. Which is a rejoicing psalm.

[32:34] And I think very appropriate to Easter. It is in English after they've sung Benedictus.

[32:48] And this is a size fits and a~!!

[33:01] at the same time of GNAF.

[33:14] The Lord is my strength and my shield.

[33:29] My heart trusts in him and I am helped. Oh, he's jumped ahead.

[33:41] He's heard my cry for mercy. To the praise be, God, the mercy. To the praise be, God, the mercy.

[33:54] Praise be to the Lord. Praise to the Lord. Praise be to the Lord. For he has turned my cry for mercy.

[34:09] My Lord is my strength and my shield. And my heart trusts me here.

[34:23] And I am here. Trust me here. And I am there. And I am there.

[34:34] I am there. And I am. And I am.

[34:46] Give thanks to him in song.

[35:03] I will give thanks to him in song. The Lord is the strength of his people.

[35:24] Fortress of salvation. For his anointed one.

[35:46] Save your people. Bless your inheritance. Be their shepherd and carry them forever. Be their shepherd and carry them forever.

[36:16] Be their shepherd and carry them forever. Be their shepherd and carry them 화 the gecko.

[36:30] Be their shepherd and carry them forever. Be your shepherd and carry them forever. They are parlezed forever and堪 the giolds in egitation are the case for free.

[36:44] So this is a current Norwegian composer, teaches at the Trondheim Institute.

[37:14] Praise be to the Lord, praise be to the Lord. Nice to have that sort of two-minute reverberation to sing in.

[37:35] It does help. That's lovely, the beautiful singing, my goodness. So that's where we've jumped into the current era, which I haven't jumped irrevocably.

[37:51] I might jump back a bit. Depends on time. One thing I've got to play, because my beloved likes this song, so do I, very much.

[38:04] This is, and secondly, because it's Canadian. And third, because it's a masterpiece, miniature masterpiece, by Healy Willen. Rise Up, My Fair One.

[38:16] From the Song of Songs. It's associated with Easter. Rise Up and Come Away. My beloved and come away. The Winter has passed.

[38:35] Do you come here. The rain is all the world that knows. которым п Gao James Thunder, the noble part of the Gemini, The time of the singing of earth is called.

[39:19] The time of the singing of earth is called.

[39:49] The time of the singing of earth is called.

[40:19] The time of the singing of earth is called.

[40:49] The time of the singing of earth is called. The time of the singing of earth is called. It's just the effects he produced are just magnificent. The words about resurrection, it's much along the lines of he's not gone, he's still here.

[41:06] It's a friend who died. I'm sorry I don't have the text here. I meant to have it. Bana had a very strange spiritual outlook, Jewish background.

[41:18] The symphony of a thousand has a strange mix of references to the Virgin Mary. And yet there's also secular references mixed in.

[41:31] That's the symphony of a thousand. This is much more focused. But it's still Christ isn't quite there. But he's called the Gloria. The concept of resurrection.

[41:46] The It's all about We Shall Meet Again This one Is Are Why Could You

[42:50] Into CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS

[43:53] CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINS CHOIR SINGS fascinates me because given the sort of skepticism of the composer, this is true of Foray and the Requiem. Foray was an atheist, but beautiful music emerges, and with this work, there's undoubtedly an achievement. There's something, there's a heritage here. He's true romantic, the height of romanticism really. He is one of the composers that Leonard Bernstein selected for his series of lectures on reaching the pinnacle of musical expression through romanticism, and then it kind of burns itself out. And he's one of the composers, along with Wagner, who burns it out. There's nothing, not much else you can do. He's driving the sopranos into huge range, very high range. He's got four soloists giving all, they're all. It's

[45:37] Abadou conducting, and it's a passionate performance. They get a huge standing ovation. So I don't know what to make of it. The bells fascinate me, ding dong ding, because one of the composers who also seems to link tubular bells with the divine is James Macmillan. This is where I want us just to listen, if you can be patient, to something very different indeed. And this takes us back now to where we are in the church calendar. I find this, this is a last of the seven last words of Christ. This was commissioned by the BBC back in 1994, and it was broadcast, can you imagine this with CBC? A sequence of performance of each of the seven last words, which is a lengthy composition, was presented on television through Holy Week. And I'll tune in to CBC tonight and hear the seven last words of Christ. I just can't see it. Anyway, I shouldn't be cynical, should I? I think it's marvellous that it was. But I think the thing that is interesting here is Macmillan, along with some others in Europe, Campadolina and Alvo Pert and so on, these composers cannot be neglected, cannot be ignored. So that puts the world, if you like, on a back foot. Oh, we can't, we can't neglect this. This guy's a Christian, but we can't neglect, it's too good. So you have to run a series of television broadcasts of this extraordinary work, and you feel you ought to commission it. I think that's a terrific witness. This is, I find, like all his music, quite telling. So we're talking about It Is Finished. This is a lead-in to... I had to cut it short.

[47:53] This is a lead-in to...

[48:15] He's using texts like Hosanna to the Son of David. Wait, I've got the wrong... Sorry, I had a bigger problem. It's the my eyes were blind with weeping text.

[48:42] From the Tenebrae response... He that consoled me is far from me.

[49:02] He that consoled me is far from me. Is there any sorrow like my sorrow?

[49:13] He that consoled me is far from me. Is there any sorrow like my sorrow? Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit...

[49:42] So, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit, is explained three times. Amen.

[50:42] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life on his head.

[51:12] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[51:42] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[51:54] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[52:06] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[52:22] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[52:34] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[52:50] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[53:06] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[53:22] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[53:38] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[53:54] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[54:10] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[54:26] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life.

[54:42] So, what Macmillan does is capture the last moments of Christ's life. How can I do that?

[55:06] How can I do that? I don't know. I find that intensely moving. Now, the composer is saying, look here, we can't squish this. It needs time.

[55:18] I'm sorry to mislead you at the beginning. I was reading some of the text that runs into that segment. But, of course, it was straight into the, it is finished words. But he leaves these great gaps in between.

[55:31] So, it makes its impact. Susan and I remember a sermon from the Bishop of Charles Charleston, well, Charleston area, South Carolina, preaching like that.

[55:44] It was quite extraordinary. He made a point. Don't, you don't. I forget his name. Lawrence, Bishop Lawrence. We may know because of Acne. And he would make a point. And just leave it.

[55:58] And people are going. And then he would make another point. And then he would. And then he would. And then he would. And then he would. Not a common preaching technique.

[56:10] But, and probably can't, not everyone can do it. But he's doing it musically. And I find it quite fascinating. This is too weighty. This is too, altogether, too serious a matter.

[56:23] For us just to either sentimentalize it or squish it. As the only option. James McMillan.

[56:34] And then just to finish. So that we can chat if you'd like to. Um, there was that which just kicked in. Good old Bach again. Who, of course, who better to point up the resurrection on the third day.

[56:52] For the D-miner Mass. I check.

[57:23] So that was which of the changes of healing is growing. I plays the whole thing.

[57:36] by setting up the release in music. And the complete revelation Thank you.

[58:19] Thank you.

[58:49] Thank you.

[59:19] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's like a crowd building up, a congregation building up.

[59:40] Oh, it's that driving bass line.

[59:51] It's almost like jazz. It's here.

[60:08] Thank you.

[60:38] And I thought I'd end on that note. So, just some very small selection of music that might be helpful in looking towards or rejoicing in Easter.

[60:58] Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sure there must be some questions or queries about that.

[61:12] Just one here. So please, this is a comment. And of course, I may be reading into the music, all the things you've told me about Mahler. But listening to Mahler's resurrection, I got the feeling very much that resurrection is something that we do, and it's a huge amount of effort.

[61:27] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm not sure.

[61:38] I'd have to think a lot more about that. I don't want to pretend to answer that, because that's a very deep question. The difficulty here is trying to discern the skill and the cohesion of the composer's skills with his or her faith.

[61:58] And that's hard to measure. For instance, if we take someone like John Stainer, who wrote The Crucifixion, every choir in the English-speaking world, usually Anglican churches, sang this dreadful work.

[62:10] Habitually up into the 1950s, it got a little bit, it got dropped. People wouldn't touch it with the barge pole after the Second World War, and then suddenly St. John's Cambridge went and recorded it and became fashionable as kind of retro.

[62:26] John Stainer was a committed Christian, very skillful. He was at St. Paul's Cathedral, but he admitted, I think, towards the end of his life, that he had, in fact, composed to a formula.

[62:37] And it was kind of warmed over Mendelssohn. And Mendelssohn, I respect enormously, but I do not want to warm him over. So there's, I would say, a failure of cohesion between the man's convictions and his musical expression.

[62:53] Partly because they're trapped by the style of the day. But it's an interesting point, because you do feel this Mahler is desperate, trying to get the point across. Resurrection! Resurrection! Resurrection!

[63:05] And to watch Abado conduct this, it's the same thing. The man is almost due for a heart attack. His sweat is pouring off. The choir is clearly petrified, though very good.

[63:17] And everything is... And you think, oh, come on. But, of course, it's well worth it.

[63:31] But whether that has all to do with luck here, I've drawn together the biggest possible orchestra, the biggest possible choir, the four loudest soloists, very fine soloists.

[63:42] And if that doesn't earn me a place in your favor, I don't know what does. Kind of thing. I don't know. It's a very interesting point. Do you think he understood the resurrection without believing it?

[63:59] The impression I get from the text is it's a kind... I'm having played for many funerals. I don't want to be disrespectful. But years passed. This kind of, he is not dead, he is still here, lying, come through to me.

[64:13] Instead of, no, he is dead and will resurrect on the last day. And always with the Lord now. Especially that intermediate bit, that he is now with Jesus, doesn't come into it, I don't think.

[64:27] That's what's missing. So there's a certainty there. There's a certainty that's missing, I think. Of course, where Bach can...

[64:39] Well, certainly where Handel scores, if you excuse the pun, is by sticking to scripture. So that makes... I mean, what are you to say? Worthy as a lamb.

[64:52] Bach is more indebted to... Though not so much... Well, yes. In some of the things we've heard. To poetry. Coming out of a Lutheran tradition, which eventually became very pietistic.

[65:06] I think you see that in some of the passion music. Some of the arias are beautiful. They're beautiful. But the words are very... They're becoming more and more kind of along the lines of it.

[65:17] It's my... I who did it. And I alone. No, it isn't. It's all of us. No, no, no, no. It was I alone. So I think...

[65:29] The understanding of the text... I think James McMillan understood perfectly. I think that's the best example we have in answer to these two questions, really.

[65:40] By contrast. Karen? Just a comment on that. I think that the mother, to me, appeals more to the emotions. Yes.

[65:50] That's where the spiritual has bought and handled with you. A composer who is a true believer and is using the word.

[66:03] Yes. The holy word. Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's very emotional. Oh, yes. I know. It's always spreading people to their feet.

[66:14] Yes, it certainly did on this occasion. And then there's Berlioz and these great settings of the Day of Judgment and that kind of thing.

[66:27] I don't know what he believed. I don't think he's known for being a Christian composer per se. It does raise a very interesting question altogether because quite apart from the composers we've heard today, Benjamin Britten comes to mind.

[66:44] I don't know where he stood, but I would not have thought. In fact, Benjamin Britten wrote some very moving pieces, his festival today in particular, but there's a cynicism about it.

[66:56] So in the line, he did not abhor the Virgin's womb, which is normally treated with some respect. He sets it to a calypso rhythm. And it's, you would say he's making light of it.

[67:13] And he may well have been. The fact is, however, when we did it here, when Harry Robinson was here, Harry was thrilled with this because it locked right into his sermon.

[67:27] It worked on that occasion. And I think it works. If there is any cynicism there, the truth of the words has triumphed, I think.

[67:38] Another problem arises with Bernstein, but I don't know enough about this, but I know somebody was telling him, Wes Jansen was saying, how he, there's a great cynicism in some of his works which touch the spiritual.

[67:57] There's a procession of palms to the front. I'm following the music of that. Oh. Was there a last question? All right. I just want to take this opportunity.

[68:09] I always feel when Ed talks that I, you know, I've run through this candy shop of 300 years, and it's like a buffet of little bits. And I'm really hoping that I can convince him to do album of the month.

[68:20] He'll just tell me what to buy each month. And he was so kind last time to send me a list of the music. Thank you, yes. And it's so helpful. I just think you are a master, and you're such a wonderful guide.

[68:33] And I think this is a wonderful opportunity for us to prepare for Easter to quiet our hearts and reflect. Thank you so much, Ed. Thank you. Thank you.

[68:44] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Next. Next. Next.